Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Top Line Tinker

Episode Date: November 27, 2023

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee start with the Leafs' loss to the Penguins on Saturday, Matthews' and Marners' cold stretch, Keefe's decision to split up their line and Brodie's mistakes. Then, they share their reactions to GM Brad Treliving's press conference today and evaluate his offseason additions heading into Game 20 of the regular season. Later, they wrap up the hour with the Dubas aspect of Saturday's contest and Crosby's complete game as a centreman.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

Welcome into the real Kipper and Bourne show. We are live on Sportsnet 590, Sportsnet 360, and Sportsnet Plus from 4 to 6, as always. And download our show when you can't catch it live. Right, Sammy? Come on, snap out of it, Sammy.

Weekend's over, buddy. Your Bills lost. Your Leafs lost. Snap out of it. I'm not even a Bills fan. I just like, I like, I root for the entire AFC. I like the conference. That's the most pathetic thing I've ever heard. I just, I don't really care about any team, but I like all the AFC teams, so I root for the whole conference.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Listen, I don't know what to tell you. But you guys have a good weekend outside of the sports. Good weekend. Justin Bourne. We got Frank the Tank.

We got Derek Brandeo. We got a great two hours. We're going to dissect the Toronto Maple Leafs in the second hour. Yeah. We'll bring it to a wider picture on what the heck's going on in Chicago. We're going to have, I think,

a good conversation on Corey Perry. I don't know that we are. Yeah, we are. Is anyone... No, I'm telling you, we are going to have a very good conversation on Corey Perry. I actually am the producer, are. Yeah, we are. I'm telling you, we are going to have a very good conversation on Corey Perry. I actually am the producer and I might mix that up.

We'll see where that's going. Okay. Who do we have in the second hour? Brian Lawton. Brian Lawton. Yeah, old friend. Mr. Everything. Former NHL player, agent, general manager, analyst.

This guy's done it all. So he's going to help us figure out what's going on at Edmonton and Chicago as well. And, of course, JB. Yeah. We go from a ton of momentum coming out of Sweden. And then seven days later, it's like a distant memory. All that energy coming out of Sweden. King of Sweden.

Willie Nylander. All of it. They go to Chicago. Managed to lose a game in overtime, albeit get a point. But now they come home off of a regulation loss Saturday night, dropping a 3-2 decision to the Pittsburgh Penguins. And where are we today? I mean, you know, if you look back at those Sweden games, I don't think we sat down in here and went, they were great, weren't they?

They sure looked great. So I think we're kind of where it was headed, but we're not in a great place. If you're a Leaf fan today, I don't think you feel super positive about things. Maybe you don't feel terrible. You're in there on the game on Saturday. You get a point on Friday, but you don't feel good today.

Mid. I would say that's exactly how I feel about the Leafs right now. So we got a ton to cram into this Leaf edition hour on our show. Yeah. You guys want to get into, like, the nuts and bolts of Saturday night? Or do you want to go, why the heck did Brad Treeliving speak today? Well, that's interesting too. Why don't we start with the game Saturday

and then get to the big picture stuff? Okay, you know what? Unless you don't want to. No, no, I'm so nervous right now that we're going to start on things that we liked or didn't like Saturday night. We're going to run out of time. That's my...

Well, that's true too. Okay, why don't we start with Saturday night because for what? How many times now is this the sixth time this season where Austin and Mitch were both held without a point? Is that where you start off of Saturday night? Like at the end of the day, we can sit there and break down a few different things

that we saw out of it. But is this what people are talking about? This is it. Yeah, it's the first line struggles. And it's not just that they haven't learned that they didn't score in that game it's that the process underneath the results are not good kip right now this group you know uh jonah siegel has article today mentions that there's eight groups eight lines on the leafs that have played 30 minutes this line

that you're talking about the top line the matth Matthews and Marner line, is second from the bottom in terms of generating shots. So they're not generating anything. Only the Reeves line generates less than them. So it's process, not just results for me. They are performing poorly, legitimately. So, you know, that is a major issue. How can that be?

How can, how can their, and listen i i only go by my analytics is optics right what i see and i i told you that i've i've never seen them without the puck less yeah that's what you don't like and have it ever uh that to me is the biggest concern is, of course, I've never seen Mitch Marner in the past five or six years chasing the puck like I have this year. Well, one thing I think of, and this is not to excuse Matthews and Marner, but like Hyman's job was go get it. Go stop BF1, stop the breakout. And Bunting, you know, you don't have to love him,

but he went in hard after the puck at least got tangled up. And, you know martin matthews like to come through his f2 and pick that puck clean and start it i don't know that nize does that the same way for them you know he's another guy who's probably more like them in terms of likes to shoot it and likes to have it he's just trying to figure out his game at the nhl level isn't he hasn't played 20 games in the league yet well maybe yes whatever hasn't played 30 games in the league yet. Or maybe he has. Whatever. Hasn't played 30 games in the league yet. Whatever number you want to set it at. You're close. Thank you. Whatever it is, you're very close.

I'm in the ballpark. So, yeah. That is maybe an issue. But I do think that that excuses them a little bit when they turn the puck over. It feels like every time they have it, they feel disconnected. They feel distant. They're not tight. So, no more.

To me, the Marner conversation amongst my buddies amongst least fans on my on twitter and text line everything that we get has reached a fever pitch here now well we know where we know where it's heading that uh he's in the crosshairs no he yeah he's he's he's gonna be your buddy's whipping boy yeah right now well klingberg's hips don't work uh you know they don't have a traditional guy that they can put everything on at the moment reeves has been in and out of the lineup that's a conversation piece that's been taken away for two why is that why is it you and your buddies go to mitch marner first and and and put the weight on him and where is where is matthews and i think even tavres to a lesser degree?

And Tavares, for the most part, has been producing, but why Marner before Matthews? To me, this year more than other years where they've taken it on the run, I think both of them are more deserving this year than it has been in years past. I think a lot of years past, people maybe got harder on Marner with a Matthews production,

and it was easier to kind of point to Marner. I don't know what it is about him. Listen, it's a personality thing. it harder on Marner with a Matthews production and it was easier to kind of point to Marner I don't know what it is about him listen it's a it's a personality thing it's I just think it's a lot of the way he is I don't know what makes the difference between him and Matthews but it's there always gets a little bit of a free pass compared to Marner I think part of it is if your job is to be kind of the silky facilitator guy who handles the puck a lot, when neither of them are producing, you feel like you're getting more out of the bigger guy

who hits people and wins face-offs and has a bit different element. For Marner, when it's not happening on that offensive side, it's tougher to see what he's doing well. To your point, I've always said that, and I don't know know sometimes you've agreed and sometimes you probably haven't but like if if as austin has said on our show if mitch is going you know uh he's this he's the the the stick that stirs the drink yeah and you've it just seems like

even willie willie's having a career year he's been awesome but it's not good enough to drag everybody with him marner's had more of the effect of i can take more people with me with my play than possibly anybody else on the roster and i also is that fair to say go ahead well i just think the difference to kip is like matthew's numbers kind of look like even though it's he's had three hat tricks and that's why his numbers look good they kind of look like what you expect you know like he's at 14 goals which is second or third in the league and you know it kind of feels like he's kind of on track to have one of his seasons whereas marner you know we haven't seen him what do you have it last year for point streak like 23 games 25 games whatever it was

record yeah and he's had points in two of the last seven games. You know, so it just feels like that's not who Marner is. He only has five goals on pace for his rookie season numbers. And Matthews is right there beside him, right, with those same similar numbers. Yeah, points-wise he is, but not goal-wise, which is what you think of Matthews, I think. So it just feels, I don't know,

it feels like the production for Marner is not the same, even though you're right. Statistically, they're not too far off from one another but i think to your point kipper that the high high high end of marner is one of the best players like in the league when he's going when he's going he's going i guess is the clip that we use all the time and when it's not there i think it's just that he set such a high standard for himself that all Leaf fans kind of know what he looks like when he's going, and when he's not, it's really noticeable. And like you said, he drags the whole team with him when he's on it,

and he just hasn't been on it. And he's got the points he's producing, which it's hard to really quantify. I don't know really how you do it, but it just hasn't been good. On that subject, let's go to Sheldon Keefe for our first Kippers clipper of the week clip one on from keith no i mean all guys want to score guys want to win you know um i thought that line was good today that's interesting right we're on

we're getting all sorts of questions about these guys and you know i think i think we all agree that they could play better. They've set such a high standard they can play better, but yet here we are, you know. One of the many reports I get before every game, I'm reading through them here before the game, and one of them I look at is our five-on-five scoring this season and at the top of the list is Mitch Marner.

So the guy here that we say hasn't played his best hockey and has all the hardest matchups every single night yet is at the top of our team in five-on-five scoring. So it's interesting how it all works out. We'll stay building our group and building our game, but let's not pile on the negatives here. You know what? I'm glad he said that because I think if you start piling on,

it's one thing within social media or talk radio or whatever you want to call it is out there on Mitch Marner. But if that guy starts piling on Mitch, Mitch is the one guy that I think is ultra-s sensitive that it could even drag him down even more. And Kelly Rudy, I think, had a clip Saturday night on just his body language. And you can just see how it's wearing on the guy. He's not having any fun. There's no joy.

I'm not sure where he is in his space right now. But fun on his meter is really on the low side. Yeah. I will say the one thing that I see on in my own social media Kip is people saying, you know, about a clip like that from Keefe is like, why do these guys continually get that pass? And that's great from Keefe that he's doing it verbally there.

I think that the complaint isn't the verbal part. guys continually get that pass and that's great from keith that he's doing it verbally there yeah i think that the complaint isn't the verbal part it's that if they're not working for a game can we send out power play two to start a power play for for a shift could we not have them out there for on a back-to-back for 24 minutes in a game or whatever it may be i think there's frustration because you talk about accountability people don't feel like kucherov gets benched in tampa bay or meyer gets benched in new jersey we just never see we've had this conversation we have i don't get it i don't understand no matter how they play you're right you're right so before you attack anybody verbally how about just doing the one thing that means the most to them

and take away their ice? Yeah. You know, that's probably, that should happen at some point. And I guess the next solution there is a bigger picture. One is shuffling them up. And they've done that, right? Like as of tomorrow night, word is that Nylander has gone up and taken Marner's place.

Marner's going to play with Tavares and Bertuzzi. Bertuzzi, by the way, has been the best of the top six for, well, outside of Willie. For, I don't know, the last seven games. Alright, let's go to Sheldon Keefe on the clip two on shuffling the lines. Just coming back off four road games in a row here now.

Coming back home. So it's a chance to kind of reset. We've been talking a lot about that group. Just been great reluctance on my part to make a change to the Tavares group in particular and with Willie in particular, who's, you know, found, really found a nice groove. His game's been going so well that you're reluctant to make a change to him and his situation. You don't want to affect guys who are rolling and feeling good in order to boost other groups. But I think the time is right, and even for Willie himself,

since coming back from Sweden the weekend, I don't think it's gone as well for him. So just the timing's right there okay well it's really just a change that we've seen how many times over the course of five years when it's like either willie with matthews or willie with tavaris but that is that is that really a a a big change well what i there's two things i hear in that clip, and I agree with you first on that, where it's like, yeah, you're not reinventing the wheel here, bud. You're flipping the

winders that you do once or twice a year, every year. So I agree with you on that. Yeah, if you let anyone on your beer league decide with the lines, they're like, flip these guys. Flip the lines, yeah. The other thing that, you know, listening to him say there and kind of bringing Willie into it, is that maybe he is trying to soften the blow again

for for mitch that it's not the reason they're changing is for mitch like willie's been really good in both games since coming back did he play 26 minutes on saturday yeah it's interesting he said i i like i've said this about mitch marner nobody should be playing 26 minutes it's too much it's absurd it's just willie played 26 a career high by two minutes i know i know which is a two minute career high if you don't think he's good you're not gonna be playing him 26 minutes so i don't necessarily believe him when he's saying that that's one of the reasons he's changing it right is what i'm getting at here you know what i'm saying yeah i do yeah i do you don't play 26 minutes if you think he's no good hasn Hasn't been great since we came back. Get back on the ice. Shoot another one in the net.

I'd rather see him shuffle nine guys up. Don't designate a bonafide number one, two, or third line. Have three mids. Seriously. No, I completely agree. Have three mids and say guys stop chasing your points stop acting like cookie monsters okay it doesn't matter if if we lock up if our analytics tell us we are doing better jobs of taking away the slot chances what's the big like who cares if you give up one glaring

or two glaring errors every night that end up in your net like hey how about tomorrow night against florida try to win a game one nothing i don't care yeah but when i you better when i watch you you go up one nothing in pit and i don't know if you remember the the goal clearly the the genzel uh tap in yeah sure do that was atrocious 200 feet of just a colossal error. And I think Kevin Bieksa talked about, you know, maybe. Brody not taking this guy out. Yeah, exactly. But for me, the glaring error was the rush in.

If you really looked at it, it was Nyes bringing the puck through the neutral zone. And he's the closest man with him is Mitch Marner on the far side. So they've established as the, as a F1 and F2 on the play, which now he's puts it in deep ends up behind the net. Mitch goes to support him and Austin who should have known inside the red line that he is the third man high, decides to go chase another goal, and all three of them end up below the goal line. And now Mitch, as an F2, looks at his center man and goes,

he's not the responsible one, and I've got to go cover his ass. And he does actually make it back until Morgan Riley decides to, I don't know, let Gensel get behind him. And then all bets are off after that. But it's like, hey, Austin, where are you going? Where are you going? How does the number one line against Crosby end up three below their goal line. That's just inexcusable.

Play the right way. Yeah, you know, like I don't know the rush exactly or how that played out, but it is indicative of, you know, it was funny, one of the quotes that Austin had about their line struggling was that sometimes it's effort-related, it's not skill-related. And I don't know if he's talking about his teammates on his line or himself or what, but it's a pretty strange thing to say about your own group.

So I don't know. I think it's good for them both. See, for me, it's between the ears. Yeah. A lot of what I see is between the ears, which, you know, includes Robertson deciding to go back to Brody on the Achari goal. Yeah, and again, Brody, not great on that play either. You know, he doesn't make a great choice once he's put in a tough spot.

He didn't want that puck at all. No, he looks like he doesn't want the puck, period. So, you know, a lot of it is you zoom out with this team right now. And, you know, I was having a Twitter exchange with Luke Asdick this morning about how it's kind of tough to know what teams are good right now because it feels like flat cap for so many years has limited how much better you can get.

But the draft, the way it is, kind of helps the bottom teams. So it feels like there's 25 teams in this pack with a couple outliers above and below. And the Leafs are kind of in that pack right now. There's a lot to sort out. And so you can understand why Brad Treel Living has a press conference today to explain what's going on where are we you know are we can you fix some of these problems because this is they have

problems here this year for the first time in a while okay you mentioned I'm general manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs met the media and had this on his overview of the season so far. Clip one. Well, there's two things. There's standings, which is number one, and then how you're playing. And I think from a manager's perspective, you're always looking at how you're playing. To me, we've been hit and miss. There's been some inconsistency in our game, right,

which is a little concerning. The area that we'd like to clean up and improve upon is you want to try to put that same game on the ice period after period, game after game. And I think, you know, the one encouraging sign is I think we've we've you know when you look at a lot of the data that we look at our our defensive play and what we're giving up has gotten better it needs to continue to get better but I think overall there's still there's still gaps in our consistency of how we played and that's that would be my through the first

quarter of the season that would probably be my overwhelming theme is we just got to become more consistent as a group mike that doesn't happen that doesn't you don't just teams like this just don't suddenly you know when you have mediocre talent but below your elite guys it doesn't suddenly figure it out every game or that's elite talent like that's not going to be the solution here is that the reason they're inconsistent it's because they're not good enough to be good all the time yeah you know so it's not going to happen so if the plan is to let robertson domey and yarn crock play well consistently i got bad news for how it's going to go. All right, let's go to another clip on improving the team.

Can he do it? I think that's your job all the time is you're trying to help your team now. You know, the idea that you're always just going to trade yourself out of issues isn't realistic. You know, coming in here, obviously, we did some things over the course of the summer. Some have gone well. Some are a work in progress.

Some haven't gone as well. So you take a look at where you're at, and you're always trying to find ways to help the team. Part of this is learning the group we have. But certainly, you're always looking at ways to make yourself better and at what cost and all those types of things. So that's an everyday part of the job. So we talked about the, you know, there are some things that have worked out, some things that are a work in progress and some things that haven't worked out.

So let's. Let's. Let's. Let's get into it. Okay. All right. Let's go with what's worked well, because we know where it hasn't worked out well and where it's headed.

Right. So what's worked well, I will say that I think Tyler Bertuzzi looks like a player that could be worth $5.5 dollars if he plays like this the rest of the way i've loved him in the last three weeks yeah he runs into some people he gets some points he's around the crease he's excited and engaged emotionally what have you thought no no no no outside of willie the last six or seven games definitely the most noticeable guy around the net for sure yeah he takes the man yeah makes plays goes hard to the net it's he's engaged yeah i mean outside of that

the matthews extension i like um beyond you know like domi domi for the most part is a serviceable guy that could play up or down your lineup. I know the goals haven't been there. But to me, Max, I never saw as a guy locked into a role. I just saw him as a guy that could move in and out of your lineup and make plays. And for the most part, I think he's done his job. I think he has found his stride, and he is making plays, and he can do some things on the offensive side of the puck

that they haven't had for depth. And multiple times this year, he's broken open a game with a play. So really nice for them to have that. I mean, I would like a goal at some point. He's a small guy, and he's not physical. He will, like, engage, but he is a small guy who's not physical, and he is not defensively attuned. Well, he's got another one that's challenged, I think,

like Nick Robertson. 100%. Yes, I agree. He does not have 600 games under his belt like a max or the experience. And so I think my point with Domi is like if you could play him with a couple of guys who are those things who maybe, I hate to say it, Sam Lafferty hypothetically,

but you know, whether it's a Gregor, I really like Gregor, and I think he could work with Domi. They both have great speed. And, I don't know, someone else who can play defensively. I think Domi can be a part of a workable third line. But I don't like him when there's other people like him on his line. Okay.

That leaves us Ryan Reeves and John Klingberg. And Gregor, though. Gregor's been a great spot. No, Gregor's... Good depth guy. I don't know. He had another breakaway. The guys had like 10 breakaways.

Can't hit the side of a barn, but... He'll get involved in a scrum. Can't score with a puck in the ocean, but it's fine. But it's like Michael Grabner. It's like if he gets 6,000 breakaways, maybe he'll figure it out one year and score 30. But if Gregor could score, he'd be making $6 million. dollars right that's why he got it for nothing he'd be rich yeah as before we get into clingberg as far as ryan reeves goes this is what i envisioned with him in and out of the

lineup at times can send a message at times sits it's, I'm not sure he should be as big as a disappointment as he seems to be to others. You know what, Kip? If he was on a one-year deal, I think people would be very happy at 1.3. Is that what it is? 1.3, 1.35? 1.3. 1.3, people would be like, all right, he's in another lineup,

comes in when we need him, great. Yeah, great. But when you sign a guy for three years, you kind of think you're going to get a guy you want to use all the time that's all sheldon gave us the impression that he was going to be an everyday fourth liner is that is was that a mistake and he did the yeah he really did that in training camp yes and coming out of training camp into the first few games of the season, he wouldn't stop raving about him, wouldn't stop talking. He did look very good.

He really built him up big time throughout the first few weeks. There were issues in New York. I'm rooting for him. There were issues on other teams that he didn't play all the time, that he needed to be a healthy scratcher. Speed was an issue. Keeping up with it was an issue keeping up with was an issue yeah i mean i to me he's okay i i get it maybe fans want him to be more engaged when he's on

uh just be more of a threat you know don't don't have to fight we know the league today you don't have to fight all the time you annoying people to see you annoying people all the time. A threat. Yapping. But outside of that, I don't think people should be overly, you know, disappointed. The Chicago game, I know he scores, so it's easy to say that, but outside of the goal, let's just forget that. What the Chicago game looked like for Ryan Reeves is what I pictured.

Yeah. Where he plays like around 10 minutes, runs into a few guys, gets in a couple scrums. Like a kind of a line thing where he's out there and he's got Seth Jones wrapped up and he's leaning on guys. He's running into people. That's what I envisioned. You want people playing the Leafs because of Reeves to go, ugh, this sucks.

He's going to be all over me again. Not like cookie night. Be like, oh, wait, I can't wait to blow by him. Yeah. So you didn't like the term on the Ryan Reeves. Love the turn on John Klingberg. And that's about it. But maybe not the 4.1 million that came with it.

Let's go to Brad Tree Living. Clip three on his prize signing on the blue line. Yeah, it's true. First of all, we didn't anticipate, you know, this wasn't something that we, you know, we knew the player was injured and we went and signed him anyhow. We knew the history of the player, but we, you know, we didn't anticipate that there was going to be an issue.

He got injured, you know, sort of the event, if you would be. I think it was in the Florida game or it was on that first road trip. I think it was the first road trip, right? We went to Florida, Tampa. And so it just hasn't improved. So what John's doing now is we're going to have, I hate to say it because in case you don't have it, but I anticipate we're going to have clarity this week.

Did you guys catch it? Let's the very start of course the reason why you talk to the media to clarify i did not sign a hurt player 100 yeah this wasn't about the fool this wasn't about uh this wasn't about the quarter poll this wasn't about uh you know can you fix it with a trade this is you dummies are saying you signed a hurt guy this is me coming out and telling you guys i'm not the idiot everybody thinks i am signing this guy yeah we didn't know we didn't know yes he was healthy when we signed him yes he had normal hips we were aware of his history yeah but he his history wasn't happening right now we were aware of it history, but his history wasn't happening right now.

We didn't anticipate that there was going to be an issue he got. Yeah, that's exactly right. We're not making crap up. We're not circumventing anything. That guy came in. We thought he was 100% fine. There were no issues. So don't accuse us of anything. And he's hurt his hips. He's had hip injections. It were no issues. So don't accuse us of anything.

And he's hurt his hips. He's had hip injections. It ain't working. He's probably not going to play. We're going to clarify that next week. We know where this is heading. Yeah. Okay. With 4.1 million in cap space for the Leafs. Yep. Which by the way is a little bit like

a kid getting their allowance, you know, or something, you know, or payday where you're like, how do I get to spend this? No, no, no. I hope Tree Living doesn't go to the quickie market and spend it. This is me on the first tee, cranking at 320 into the woods, begging for a mulligan. Please, Sammy, please, JB, breakfast ball, please. There it is. Brad Tree Living sat today and said, we didn't know, but I got a breakfast ball please there it is you had brad tree living sat today and said we didn't know

but i got a breakfast ball yeah retee yeah retee try again he ain't hitting three off the tee but you better not you know pull hook it into the other side of the world yeah you're gonna go play the next one or else you're in five off the team yeah yeah no so that it will be interesting to know how they choose to utilize that very easily i can answer that question for you a man who plays defense yeah a defensive man would be they need one of them they do quite badly so you know that's uh that part remains to be seen but it is worth noting too he did say he this isn't something you can trade your way out of, which also kind of gets my back up a little bit just because you're allowed to make trades. I know he is, but the truth is, JB, it's just so hard.

It's just really, really hard. Okay, do hard things. You're making millions of dollars. And you have a team that... You have one of 32 premier jobs in the league. That's all I had was it was really hard. I can't back it up after what you guys just asked. You are the first-year manager of a very prestigious franchise

with sky-high expectations, and you're sneaky floundering here. Yeah. You've got five regulation wins in 19 games. Five regulation wins through 19 games. Is that right? That's correct. That's not very many.

And, you know, it's like, oh, it's hard. I get that, that it's hard. Pick up the phone again. Like, it's, they need some help defensively. You know, but it doesn't feel like they need the defibrillator. Like, they don't need to trade Mitch Marner for UC Sorrows or whatever insane thing is out there on hockey HF boards.

Oh. You think soon? See what happens after Florida. You don't think they would trade one of those guys midseason? Listen. You just said it.

You want to make millions being the general manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs? You look at everything. I also don't think you can see how people talk about the guy who just got fired and come in and do the same things, which is just go, ah, the core will figure it out. The core hasn't figured it out. Before you even have a conversation on trading anybody, let's figure out what he's going to do with Willie Nylander.

He also spoke to the media. Clip number four, Derek Brandale. Well, I'm not going to delve into, you know, I think you guys will get to know me. I try to give you as much as I possibly can, but I'm not going to get into those discussions. Other than to say nothing's changed on our end. We continue to, you know, our desire and our hope at the end of the day

is we're going to get Willie signed. And there's a process that you go through. Willie's had a tremendous start to the year. But, you know, I think he's a – I don't think this is just a hot start. I think he's a really good player. And I stated from day one here, our objective was to get Austin signed. We got him signed. Our objective is to get Willie signed, and we're working at it.

So, you know, he said he had a great start, great for him, great for us. But that doesn't change in any way. You know, we just continue to work away at it. I think he just said we can and we will about Willie. I think he mentioned hot start like four times. Yeah. I'm looking at Willie's career numbers. So he's at 19 games this year, 27 points.

His career games played is 540 and points are 450 basically. He hasn't been a point per game guy. So I think it would be nerve wracking to be negotiating with a guy at his absolute career peak right now. If you're Tree, it's like, if I drag this out, is he going to come back to earth a little bit and maybe see our side a little bit more? Even if he comes down,

the price ain't coming down with him. You don't think? No. No. I've been around this game long enough to watch these type of guys negotiate, and the price of poker never comes down. Yesterday's price is not today's price.

He is going to get his money. Well, he said in that clip, he's like, well, I hope he changed. Hope he went a little north. Yeah, fair enough. Even if it comes back down to earth a little bit, he is a dynamic talent that people pay to go see. Popular in this market. They know how much people love him. Are you worried about selling tickets here, Kip?

Yeah, I am. I'm sorry? I am, yeah. What? uh yeah i am i'm sorry i am yeah you don't think they what i am worried about people still shelling out big bucks and not getting and getting more gregors than nylanders i do wonder if that's not a major fear of why you haven't seen a nylander or Marner trade is because they go, do you guys know what people pay to see? I grew up in this town.

Okay. I've watched it evolve. The price, the demand for tickets has always been there, but eventually it's going to hit a break point. I honestly believe that because, first of all, the generations always were able to pass tickets onto their children and grandchildren. That's going to stop the fact that you need 80 grand

if you want to pick them up now. That didn't happen before. I think there's always a concern in this town that we can tap in big money, but they got to feel like they're getting something worth paying for still. That should always be a concern from MLSC. Couldn't it go the other way too, though, with this core, Kip? Because I do sense a lot of apathy towards this team

in terms of people being frustrated with the same team doing the same things for seven straight years here. Like we're having this, we could be doing a show from... Yeah, this is 2019 or 2021 or whatever. I think there's part of this where they go out and they trade one of these guys for a top-end D-man and another guy to fill out the bottom half of their roster where people are like, oh, okay, it's a different direction.

This is something new. Like a trade of one of these guys could renew some of the people in this family. I can't disagree with that, Sammy. Absolutely. It could 100% go that way, too. Until it doesn't work and they start losing. Until the butcher D-man you traded Mitch Marner for can't make a breakout pass. What is going against them if they re-sign Willie at $11 million?

We've got ample proof that it doesn't work already. Why are you? What if the same thing was more expensive? Right? Yes. It's just not more expensive. I know this doesn't work. It's my grocery bill.

Yeah. And to your point, you know, there's a lot of people that are saying, don't do it. You've already proven that you can't win with four $10 million players up front. Why do you want to pay more for it? So to your point, I think there is maybe a break point where one of them may have to go. Yeah.

I just don't think you can do that middle of a season. Yeah. Let's see where this team is in the middle of the season well before you say that just checking in here to report that the detroit red wings got hot yeah they're not bad yeah i believe they won did they win again yesterday yes they did they beat boston so the red wings have now caught and passed the leafs in the standings and that's not like some you know more games less games they played one more game they got two more points than the leafs so they are in the standings and that's not like some you know more games less games they played one more game they got two more points than the Leafs so they are in the third spot

in the Atlantic the Leafs are in the last wildcard spot and not gonna say those standings are pretty that's about where they fit so the East is very good there's a lot of very good teams you gotta win at a pretty good clip in this division and

my guess is that this could hit 100 points to make the playoffs. In the East. Well, because it may be 90 to make it in the West. Maybe less. Yeah, you think it could be that low, eh? Offhand, I'm looking at the West. I don't know if we can put it up on a board or not, but, like, okay, we... looking at the West. I don't know if we can put it up on a board or not, but like, okay, we...

Here come the Oilers. We buried the Oilers at American Thanksgiving, but based on what I saw out of the Ducks... Look at these teams. The Wild, how many games have the Wild lost? That is a dog's breath. Seven of the last nine is the answer. Oilers got to keep rolling here and stringing some majors.

But there's six points behind a team that's played two more games than them. They're not that far gone. Sammy, we're going to take a break here? Yeah, we should probably take a break. We'll take a break. And we still got plenty more to get into, including Saturday night. Should we have not hyped up the Dubas versus the Leafs a little bit more? I'm so glad you brought this up.

I want to get into that. Why would we have hyped that up? Quiet. We're going to break. We're going to get into it after the break. You are watching and listening to Real Kipper and Born. Fan Checkdown with Matt Marchese and Donovan Bennett. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Plenty of more on The Real Kipper and Bourne Show,

including our National Hour, where we'll welcome in Brian Lawton, former NHL player, agent, analyst. Talk Oilers, talk Corey Perry. Maybe get back into the Western Conference. Maybe they're not so dead in the water as we thought. Maybe. Yeah.

But. Good weekend. We left to commercial break talking about Pittsburgh pittsburgh penguins and kyle dubas and i don't know is it just us that didn't really make that big of a deal of kyle versus the leafs again we had that reaction show we the blackhawks had just played we were doing a post game we only had an hour yeah we were like okay okay. But we had Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday of the week, too. Nobody could have foreseen the Saturday night game. But I think hockey night, our crew here at Sportsnet

did maybe five or six minutes at the beginning of it, but it just kind of fell by the wayside, I think. You know why? Did you not get that? Like, you do your leaf talk yeah were people out there talking about it well it's funny the first thing that bunkus brought up to me on leaf talk he like sent the tweet about dubas and i was at the dubas bowl and my honest opinion was like i hadn't really thought about it that much like i really yeah they're both just kind

of men both these teams so and that's what it is that it comes down to. It's like, well, one's really good. Not one's really bad. They're just both kind of right down the middle. So the Leaf fans have kind of moved off of it. It just seems some have, it seems so far removed now. It's like, well, we got our own issues here. We don't have to worry about that.

Yeah. Or we don't need to be concerned with that because we got, we got our own things that we got to fix on the team. I don't need to be concerned with that because we got our own things that we got to fix on the team. I don't know. There's an awful lot of people today doing work that's like what would it look like if Duvis was still here or around that game? There was

a lot of what would it look like had he not been fired? Who cares? Why does it matter? Because you're a sports fan and what you do is you live in hypotheticals. I will say this. I wished on Saturday night, would have seen a few more reactions.

You know, when Carlson scored, it would have been great if they could have panned to... Tree? No, Spezza and Dubas doing hip chest bumps, and, you know, that would have been kind of fun to watch. Yeah, I think Leaf fans would love that. I'm sure they would have played well in Canada. My honest opinion is, you know, that would have been kind of fun to watch. Yeah, I think Leaf fans would love that game. I'm sure they would have played well in Canada.

My honest opinion is, like, there's so much of it goes around Sid to me and the Penguins, and they're just being like this, you know, not rivalry, but, like, Sid's played against the Leafs so much, and, you know, not to have that many matchups left. The Saturday night, I'm like, oh, I'm going to get bent out of shape about Dubas. It's a playoff series. Totally different animal. Yeah. Where it's like, you dial it up going to get bent out of shape about Dubas. It's a playoff series. Totally different animal. Yeah.

Where it's like, you dial it up. I think it'll probably feel different in Toronto, too. I think they're coming here in December, maybe December 16th, I want to say. They're coming to Toronto. I think it'll feel different then. But, like, I don't know. I just. Can we talk about 87 for a second?

Because I think he ended up with, what, one assist? Yeah. 66 points in 50 games against the Leafs in his career. Why is it every game looks the same with him? Where it's just, he's just so solid. Yeah. He never, like, he never looks like he's having a really tough night. It doesn't feel like sid has to beat anyone one

on one you know what i mean like he takes what the game gives him a lot of time like the assist he got is on the rush he makes a play to the trailer who i believe made the play to the back door that was his assist later in the game he has a similar rush where he kind of looks for a similar thing instead of forcing a play to the net i always think that john devarez looks his best when he's beating guys one-on-one when he's taking them on one-on-one but that's bad you don't want to have really bad yeah you don't want to have to beat guys one-on-one so it just kind of takes what's there for him and executes at a really high rate he could have had four assists like he said a lot of guys up they put that one on was it genzel who wedged it into the crowd somehow from

like in the blue paint like he was firing firing it around. We can debate greatest or not greatest. To me, he's the most complete player I think I've ever seen. Complete. Yeah, and competitive to go with that, right? And no shortcuts. Never a shortcut. I wish Austin would have come out of Saturday night going, why can't I be more like Sid?

You know, I do think that that happens over careers. And Sid is different because he's Sidney Crosby and he's been like this. But, like, I don't know that Patrice Bergeron was looked at as the best defensive center in the league the first six years he played, seven, eight years. You know, I think that element of the game comes later. Would you not agree that that's not a, guys develop that skill?

Yeah, like Sid doesn't chase his points. He doesn't value points like I think Austin does, Tavares does, Mitch, and probably Willie in a contract year. They value their cookies. Yes. And Sid's not like that. Probably would have been like that earlier in his career, though, I would imagine. Maybe.

You know? Yeah. But I think probably in the last, like, seven, eight years. So then this is a good point, that are these guys not at their point in their career where they're ready to say, okay, I don't care about my cookies anymore i just need to win and people will respect that so my new priorities are this i read that in uh i don't know who did the espn you know when uh on friday we mentioned that uh ovi said we saved the league yes okay i

did you read the article i did yeah do you remember the trots bar Trotz, Barry Trotz quotes? Yep. What did he say? Where he basically said that Alex changed where his priorities. It's not about the goals. Yeah. We don't care. It's not about the goals. It's about everything around it. Wow.

He said, I think Alex is ready to win now. He's got a funny way of showing that his priorities changed. He's scored 60 a year for 50 years. Yeah. No, but Trotz's point was that he stopped poaching in favor you know kind of played made the right decision won't matter if you can't help us win in other areas of the ice that's the point trotz was trying to make and i don't think austin gets it just yet and i don't think you learn that until you do it because he's the highest paid guy in the league. Yeah. Yeah, that

could be. You know, you and I are on different sides of Matthews in that I think he's a good defensive player. I don't... I wouldn't say as much this year. I think it's slipped a little bit. Well, that line has been on for 14 goals, 4 and 13 against. My issues aren't him defensively. Yeah. My issues are he's not a

playmaker. He doesn't make plays. He wants to shoot themaker. He doesn't make plays. He wants to shoot the puck. He wants to put it in the net. I know you want Brett Hall to set up. I don't want, I don't want the highest paid player in the league, highest paid number one centerman in the league to end up with 30 assists on

the season. It's not enough. Yeah. Okay. That's fine. Yeah, that's fine. But that's a totally separate point from the defensive

side of the game and that commitment but it it's all of it it's just a complete player sid's a complete player like sid's got what 25 27 points sounds right i think i think 23 or 24 are even strength yes i think sid is actually leading the nhl in even strength points Yes, I think Sid is actually leading the NHL in even strength points, which I will check right now. And Gensel's not too far off. Yeah, Gensel's one behind. Gensel has two more goals than assists this year. And where's Austin and Mitch right now on even strength?

Not high. Mitch is still leading five on five points. The Leafs. But it's nowhere near the top centermen in the game right now. Or the top players. Yeah, sorry, I don't know what you mean, players. Yeah, sorry, I see Neil Enders, their top guy. I'm trying to find Mitch, but I could be wrong that he's ahead of him. Anyway.

Just, I think Sid deserves more all-time great conversation. Because it's like the stupid Mount Rushmore thing or the top five thing. And it's hard to kick Gordie Howe off the top five of all-time hockey. But to me, Sid is definitely in that conversation. Me too. To me, it's how much longer is he going to play at this level for? Did you see that tweet I sent you guys? Because we were talking about this on Leafs Talk on Saturday.

And I was saying about how he missed so many games due to – like he missed COVID, he got injured, the lock you know he missed 286 games over his career yeah and at his career points per game you know that's around an extra 350 points 2,000 points yeah he'd be in the conversation he would be at you know the point the total the guy here at least truth who tweeted this I mean he had 1880 points and even take 50 off that or 60 off that he's still in the in the spot he's an all-time great player we saw carlson score a goal saturday night where are you on kyle dubas's uh sink or swim with this guy that guy can't defend a lick it was a great goal he also got beat like a rented mule against the first two goals were his fault it's hard to believe that

you could be in the league that long and have that much success putting the puck in the net and you haven't got a clue how to defend in front of your net you know this is exactly what we're talking about where you think eventually you'd go forget the points i just need to like help my team win and defend and all that sort of stuff but no it has not come for him by the way i'm just i've been looking at the stats and half distracted the in terms of even strength points it's kneilander matthews tavarez and then marner on the leafs i guess he must have he's at five on five points he was really grinding for a way to give him maybe there's some four on four the three on three points in there i don't know but

oh anyway anyway even strength so well i mean neilander has a bunch of in the overtime points yeah wow yeah so he's looking to give Mitch. He wanted to give him his due. That's interesting. A little credit to Wall. I mean, Jari was pretty good Saturday night. He made some big saves. Why don't you feel better with Wall in there than Samsonov?

Watch these games. Wall's just fundamentally a better goalie. Yeah, quiet compared to... Pucks go through him a little bit recently, but he's not flying around always. Yeah. That Achari one was well-placed and all, but... You're going to save there.

Probably. Achari, Lafferty. Achari was prime. Lafferty out. Block and shot. Score and goal. Could the Leafs use Lafferty right about now? I don't want to talk about it.

Five goals and ten assists for Vancouver. Speed kills penalties. That's great. We've solved nothing. Is that already an hour? Already an hour, buddy. Okay, we got the next hour with Brian Lawton. We'll talk Corey Perry.

We'll talk Edmonton Oilers and maybe even a little Vancouver. All right, don't go away. Stick with us. Real Kipper and Bourne.