Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Tortorella's Coaching Culture Shock

Episode Date: March 19, 2024

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee start with the sad news of Chris Simon's passing today and Kyp shares memories of their head-to-heads in his playing days. Then, a significant note ahead of the Leafs' match-up with the Flyers tonight as Philly makes Couturier a healthy scratch. Later, a Toronto POV of the game - Leafs turn back to Samsonov, whether they should expect retaliation from the last time they faced off and Benoit making his return to the lineup. Finally, former Flyer Scott Hartnell (32:38) weighs in on the Tortorella experience as a player, what led to Couturier being scratched and if playoffs are still on the table for the Flyers.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee, Derek Brandeo, Jen Rolnick for the next two hours on the Real Kipper and Bourne Show. Thanks for joining us. We are live on Sportsnet 590, Sportsnet 360, and Sportsnet Plus from 4 to 6 Eastern as always. And wherever you get your podcast on your favorite download, please give us a chance if you cannot catch

us live. And remember, Texas 590-590, our good friend Sammy here will feel like it's worthy enough to mention. He will read them and then discard them. If it gets his blood boiling. Yeah. He will. I always have it open boys constant eyes on it

all right um just some sad news various reports uh out there on former national hockey league tough guy chris simon uh passing away at age 52 yeah and uh someone that i came across on a couple of occasions you fought him i fought him wow a couple of occasions. You fought him, right? I fought him a couple of times. He was tough. He had an issue with me probably because I maybe chirped him a couple times. Okay. So one time in Quebec, we got separated a couple times, and I knew it was coming the next go-around at Madison Square Garden.

And I knew that if i don't do something he's just gonna be all over me and he was he's got to be is he six four or something it may have been the number one time i was really fearful yeah really fearful but either i was going to do this or i'm he was going to just embarrass me and chase me all night and i i couldn't do that in front of uh my teammates so i i went at him and he stung me a couple i actually came back and held my own but like the other guy had five or six inches on me maybe 45 pounds i had no business fighting the guy you know what he put a lot of fear into a lot of people but also you know did he how many goals did he score the one year?

He had a season where he put a bunch in the net. He won a Stanley Cup. He had a 16-goal year, a 29-goal year, a 14-goal year, multiple 14-goal years. Yeah, above 10, five, six times. So he could play, too. 29-goal years. I had him really in that same class as Probert,

where he was the most feared guy out there, but he could also find a way to put the puck in the net and play the game. Yeah. Well, he ended up in three Stanley Cup finals, like I said, winning the one with Colorado. Oh, the Flames, right? Yeah.

Yeah. So sad news you know his playing career aside it's just um you know our heart goes out to his family and our thoughts with them it sounds like it was a sudden so awful yeah condolences to the simon family okay um tonight toronto maple Leafs and the Philadelphia Flyers at the Wells Fargo Center. And usually we start off the show with talking Leafs and, you know, some issues or some debatable question marks going into the game.

But that's not the case tonight because the main storyline of this game doesn't belong to the Toronto Maple Leafs. It belongs to the Philadelphia Flyers. Way to go, Torts. Yes. Sean Couturier, the captain of the Philadelphia Flyers, has been healthy scratched for tonight, along with the two guys who were on his line last game,

Cam Atkinson and Gurianov, Dennis Gurianov. None of them playing tonight. Couturier is a fascinating case where, you know, he had fought to come back from injury, had been through quite a bit, had a wonderful first half of the season, like a really, really good first half. Struggling a little bit of late, but, yeah, played 11 minutes against Boston in a 6-5 loss and finds himself healthy scratched. His team with a one-point lead

in the three-seed of the division and a two-point lead on the second wildcard spot. They're not going to play their healthy captain with 15 games to go, 14 games to go. I can't recall over my playing career ever seeing a story where you're you got a big game the team's chasing a playoff spot or at least trying to hold on to their playoff spot and you healthy scratch your captain i can't ever recall hearing a story like this.

And I'm sorry, but I think it's the most ridiculous thing I've heard all season long, if not for the last few years. I'm really glad to hear that because I think it's insane. I think it's under no circumstances do you embarrass your team captain mind you not a team captain that you inherited a team captain that you named months ago you named him the captain yes you did yes along with your group your general manager your president i don't know maybe a few key guys in the room this is the leader of your group that's not good enough tonight to play a hockey game.

I think it's one of the most embarrassing things I've ever heard. And, you know, I couldn't agree more with that. It just seems like such a Tortorella thing to be like, doesn't matter who you are, it's accountability, it's whatever. And then, you know what Tort said when he came out to the media today? No, I don't either, you are doesn't it's accountability it's whatever and then you know you know what torts said when he came out to the media today no i don't either because he didn't he didn't have the accountability to come he sent his assistant coach rocky thompson to answer questions now i think torts is getting his cast off they were saying he was in a sling he had some sort of injury 24 hours in a day yeah you have to take the cast off with your hockey team you got

to take off your cast at that precise time. Exactly. So you can't go out there and preach accountability, scratch your captain with 14 games to go, and not come out and explain yourself a little bit. And for the record, if you listen to Couturier's quotes, it doesn't sound like he explained himself to Couturier all that well either. I have one clip of it, not the one that you have,

but I have another one where he asked about what Torts told him. So if you want to play that, put it in there. Has he given you any direction of what he needs to see from you or what you need to work on to make sure you're in the lineup and getting a lot more minutes than you have been? Not really. I've gotten the same answers. You guys just need to see more.

I'm still looking to find out what that is, but I'm trying every game. It's not like I'm just sitting around or doing nothing, I think. Like I said yesterday, I felt the last couple games with the limited ice time or opportunities I've been getting, Been doing all right. But I guess we're going with the best lineup available tonight to get a win. So it is what it is. So the captain, the leader of this hockey club, turns around and says to the media, you're getting the same answer as i am that's good solid communication between your captain and your coach yeah not great and you know we there's another clip where he says

he's frustrated the way he's been treated he talks about the 11 you know the ice time the limited opportunity he's he's been getting you know he's not a guy who doesn't work you know who doesn't put in the commitment or whatever it's you can't tell me you can't put him as your 4c and play him for that same amount of ice time or something in the game your team needs tonight and so now what have you done but created some real frustration you've made yourself the center of attention that the the focus isn't on the hockey game for your team. Maybe they get a win. I don't know.

JB, even if they get a win. No, let me go further. Okay. Even if they get a win, somehow turn this around and make the playoffs. Get to a conference final. Get to a Stanley Cup final. Even if they win the Stanley Cup, it's still a stupid move that will never be linked to turning this thing around for the team. It's still the wrong thing to do embarrass sean couturier who somehow miraculously saved his career when they thought it was over with his multiple back

surgeries and i don't know where that stands into where he is right now if it's even a factor or not but everything up until now has been led for everyone to believe that this is a legitimate captain and the right choice for the flyers and he's not good enough to be one of 20 in your lineup tonight i mean he's under contract with the flyers till 2030 you know like he is going to be a part of this thing and if it's related to back and injury and whatever then you can come out to the media and say you know he's just slowed down a bit we want to see him get a rest here you know so i checked in with charlie o'connor from philly sports i texted him i said hey any word on where torts was today yeah and he said we were told he was in the building but declined to speak.

So they had Rocky Thompson talk. I specifically asked Flyers PR if it had anything to do with his hand, if he was getting a cast off or something, and they said no. He spoke yesterday after practice and didn't want to speak again. So that to me is not that accountability thing.

And the craziest thing is just, you know, last game, Couturier turned one over against Boston, goes out a couple shifts later, and sets up a goal that kind of sparks the Philly comeback and doesn't play after that. So Torts must have decided in that moment after the turnover like he's not going to play again. Somehow he snuck back out in the ice.

I don't know, but it's... And, you know, I don't know what you think it would be against Toronto. To me, this is like, like, it doesn't not matter. Like he, what do you suggest? I'm suggesting that Torts loves attention and there's the most media attention here. And he gets to be like, look at what I'm doing. I'll hold anyone accountable. It's a bigger story when he's against the Toronto Maple Leafs than any other team in the league.

Yeah. Because of the media. So I am with you 100 on that yeah i just this is the torts roller coaster continues for my love and hate relationship with him yeah where i thought it was coming around the corner i was like you know i'm starting to like him i see him talking about dogs and all this stuff then he scratches his captain against the leaves i'm like i'm back this is the babcock stuff though where it feels like the ego gets too big for some of these guys, and they need to insert themselves in a way

that makes them a part of the story. I just... Torts has done a good job with the Flyers this year. Make no mistake about it, and I believe in accountability. Torts has done a good job over the course of his coaching career, but he has those handful of moments where you go, T go towards you're doing it again

okay you're doing it again this is one of those you're doing it again moments when his blueprint eventually runs out for sure you got the captain of your team you don't think he influences opinion within your room and he's frustrated how he's been treated he's done this he doesn't get to be part of the chase for playoffs after what he's been through he's done this on every team where he just chases himself out of a situation brooksie if i want to explain it to you i would and like if you're briere and jones you defend him and back him and say this is you know he'll hold anybody accountable but when things when you

miss playoffs here and you go well you know what happened here's what briere said about him as my page spins he had a quote on it today he said uh danny brayer on the flyers decision to healthy scratch captain uh seanotteria tonight. I can tell you one thing with John Tortorella, it doesn't matter who it is, that's what he's known for. He treats everybody the same way. But it's not. That's BS.

Yeah. That's BS. Because it's not true. It's a great soundbite, but it's not true that everybody gets treated the same. That is BS beyond belief. It's not true that everybody gets treated the same. That is BS beyond belief. It's not true. There's some guys that get more rope. There's some guys that get more leeway.

Some guys have better reputations than others. I'm going to lean over. This guy gets five chances to make up a mistake. You get two, you get one. That's the way it really works. What's crazy with this particular case is that it's Sean Couturier. Because typically when he said, you're the guy who gets one chance, it's Patrick Laine or P.L. Dubois or whichever type of guy like that

where, you know, a skilled guy who doesn't work, who doesn't try, who doesn't defend in the same way that Torts would expect them to, that's not Sean Couturier. Couturier's up for the selkie every year. He's healthy. The thing that gets me is, are they better with whoever they're bringing in? It's like, it's just, there's no world.

Are they better tonight? You're right. There's just no world they're better without them. And so maybe you're making the case that we don't care if we make playoffs this year. This is about learning for the big pitcher pitcher i bet you those guys in your lineup looks like the the bottom two centers are ryan paling and noah cates they're gonna have ollie licksell in tonight you know see this is a way to lose a room is it not it's it's i don't know there's something about these type of coaches because we had this with Keenan where

Keenan would be all over like a Brian Leach and Benchum like during the conference final against New Jersey and it's almost as if they need they need something they need an excuse they need something so if they lose it's well how could I how could I win with Brian Leach not playing like that? How can we have made the playoffs when our captain doesn't show up for a game or I couldn't play him? Like coaching it. It was on Couturier. It was on Brian Leach.

It was on this guy. Did he really bench Brian Leach? He benched Brian Leach he benched brian leach oof during the conference final and we miraculously found a way yes whoa i didn't know that anyways that's just looking at kacharia and mark messier got him to admit it was a bad mistake yeah the ice time for kacharia like he played 11 10 last game but prior to that he played 16 10 14 30 you know 17 16 like they had been using him it's not like he's been so trash they felt they couldn't play him in game he's clearly hasn't like he's had a bad run of

games here and you look at his last game logs he hasn't been great but the ups and downs of the long nhl season where you're on the captain of a team that's in a playoff spot they're not supposed to be. I just don't get the upside. I have no idea what the upside is. No, Atkinson, they just traded for Gurriano if he's not going to play too.

Anyways. One last thing for me on this is that I don't think there's a recovery from this i actually think this one is kind of just gonna linger it's gonna be a black mark it will linger for a for for an eternity okay and i don't know how couturier and and torts can put this behind them it will always be hanging over sean's head yeah right well i it's just such a crucial time there's so so often in hockey you're playing pre-season or you're training in the summer you're playing pre-season games or you're on a team that's

not going to make playoffs or it's so rare in your career that you get to be in the playoff chase these are the games where you're like we're in the thick you know we can be out of playoffs we could be up to you know second we could and he to deny him being a part of a game against the toronto maple leafs and you know with less than a month ago the timing of it is just it's personal it's personal it's so personal yeah like i i listen i i talk to ex-players every day yeah and it's not uncommon to hear hear someone say like that guy he ended my career he ruined my career he yeah and then now you're years later after and some of these coaches, they wonder why my phone's not ringing,

why I'm not getting invited to certain things. And it's like, because you were a dick. It's funny. That's why. There's some very successful. Yeah. Right. And it's funny that like a guy like John Cooper can still be a hard ass,

but these things don't happen where he takes his best players and embarrasses them, you know, or like he manages to walk a line of being a hard guy who doesn't do these sorts of things. So anyway. All right. I think we exhausted our feelings on a healthy scratch on the Philadelphia

flyer captain. I wish I could have a, I wish, it was like the Flyers hour here, but I wish I could have a zag or another opinion on it, but it's just impossible. Like, I guess if you're a Flyer fan,

you've watched him stink for a few games. You're like, oh, well, I guess, but I can't believe he's not talking about it. No, that's crazy.

I know this is a big deal. Well, he can't hide from it. And he's saying like, I'm, I wish I didn't have to do this, but here's why, you know, or whatever. The fact that he sent Rocky Thompson out there today,

and Rocky Thompson's like, well, I can't speak to it. It was Torts' decision. Right. It's like, well, what are we doing here? Anyways. In about 12 minutes, we're going to welcome in Scott Hartnell, former NHL, or former Philadelphia Flyer, does some great work.

Former Torts player. Oh, there's plenty to chew on this conversation. Presently now with the NHL Network as an analyst. So we'll have an interesting pickup on this conversation with Scott Hartnell. In the meantime, the Leafs get ready. Where do you want to start in terms of storylines from a Leaf angle? Is it simply Samsonov going back to Samsonov tonight that surprises us?

How are you guys feeling about talking with the Leafs the next month? Great. Just in terms of like unique storylines for the rest of the time. It just feels like they can't move up, really. They can move down if they really go in the stinker, but it doesn't feel like they're going to do that. You know, Marner's hurt. When he gets back, I guess that's something else.

But it really feels like we've moved into the last, the annual last month malaise with the Leafs here. They got the malaise. Well, no, it's just, but I think, you know, you look at the standings, not a lot of teams are, you know, there's the crappy bottom, but not a lot of teams are playing for a lot. The top teams in the East are kind of set. Yeah, and if you've got that attitude

that there's just nothing to play for in the, what, the next 16 games, like, I think they're making a bad mistake. I think there's so many interesting storylines what do you what do you coach if you're a keef over this next stretch like what are you talking about the special teams special teams 77 percent pairings penalty kill pairings lines it's it's about finding what how to optimize this group you know the mcmahon has made a case for himself to play more. Holmberg has played all through the lineup.

They're big stories. And they're not big stories just waiting for game one. To me, they're big stories for the next 16 games and how they continue to progress and how they get themselves mentally, physically, emotionally, spiritually ready for the stanley cup playoffs which he's never experienced before in his life with yeah i mean that's to me that them how they kind of handle these bigger games sports because they have how many games against tampa that they have

coming up they got a couple against tampa they have florida coming up twice like they're gonna get some tests here and i think the tampa one of them is the very last game of the season so you don't know what's gonna be happening in that one but like i'm watching tampa right now just play every game like they're in the stanley cup playoffs now mode well that's kind of stuck to the leafs that all these teams around them like so the leafs gotta start got to start prepping themselves for this and a lot of people obviously focused on the last minute and a half against saturday night but there was a sense there for 40 minutes that they had that that style of play that was conducive to what they might see in the in the playoffs out of uh carolina's a good team. But Carolina, to me, is the type of team

that I would like the Leafs to play in a playoff series as opposed to one like the Bruins or the Panthers where they don't really have a ton of snarl on their team. Not a ton, but they're big and heavy. And they do lean. Not in the same way as Boston or Florida. Different. It's a different division.

It's a different world. It's a different world. It's funny. I was watching our boy Biz, who, you know, we talked to him once in a while here. Biz Nasty was, it was talking to Ryan Whitney about how tough the Leafs are,

you know, and how the Leafs do have, and they haven't had guys who are tough the way that they have guys now who are willing to fight and get in your face and all that. And I, okay. It's off the bat. Like who's, it's Edmondson and labushkin and benoit and mccabe and reeves and you know there's there's a number of guys at least more bertuzzi just more willing but i am curious to

see if it matters when it's still not at the core which is a common thing that i beat up on but you know will that they be able to handle whoever plays them is going to lean on the four main guys up front so we'll see if those other guys who are physical can slow that down in some way all right the leafs are looking for their ninth straight win against the flyers which is that's a it's a lot of wins that's nice it's nice to a big number here well they've stunk a while, and at least been really good in the regular season, so it doesn't surprise you totally. All right, let's go to Sheldon Keefe for our first Kippers Clipper

on playing the Philadelphia Flyers tonight. Well, they're a team, you know, like a lot of us that are playing to qualify for the playoffs, and things are getting tight around you, so, you know, for that reason, and they're a proud team, you know. They're coming off a loss in Boston, a loss against us. So, yeah, they're going to be, you know, they're going to play well.

They're going to play hard. I fully expect a response. We talked to our team about that here today. Obviously, you know, something like scratching their captain is, you know, all those kind of things get your team's attention. So we certainly expect their best tonight. So, Kibra, you weren't here last week when they played, but they left the top power play unit on when they were up 6-1. Rocky Thompson was screaming at Sheldon McKeith.

Can you have like a – is there going to be a fight because of that? Does that matter? Like Deloria is back in the lineup tonight. Reeves is, like, does that really matter? Probably not as much as you would think. Not crazy about it either, but that tends to be my old kind of school thing at the end of the day. 6-2, 7-2, 8-2,

running up the score. I know how you feel. And I'm not dead set against it as much as I would have been maybe five or ten years ago. It's like watching these stupid celebrations now. And it's like I don't even have a feeling on celebrations anymore. That's so true. Do whatever you need to express yourself

and then we'll just drop the puck. Did you see that kid in the WHL with the selfie stick? It's like, oh my God. You know what? When no one is offended by it, it loses its teeth. I don't care.

You don't care about the selfie stick? What's happened, Kimmy? Well, that's what I'm saying. I heard some story, like minor league, whatever, my son's age, some eight-year-old kid did like a canoe after he got a two-minute taunting penalty or unsportsmanlike penalty. I'm like, what are we doing?

Was anyone offended by the kid canoeing? Did you see the kid do the worm? I did too. First intermission in Calgary. It's terrible. Oh, was it an intermission? Oh, no, no. It was a shootout something.

Oh, I thought it was like a real game. No, it was a nothing. Okay, well then whatever. Throw them out there, okay. But like to be truly upset, I think you've got bigger fish to fry right now. You do. Than worrying about a team putting out their number one power play.

Even if the point is correct that the Leafs shouldn't have done it or the team in the lead shouldn't do it, it's embarrassing to say anything about it as the team trailing. Hey, stop doing that. Quit doing the goal trying other teams. You know my thoughts. I would have been just as pissed as them.

Right. That's pathetic. For sure. Competitive guy, I don't know what to tell you. I get it. You got some cookie monsters out there that want you know are gunning for 70 goals so like you and you don't have the guts to stand up to them saying that's enough yeah right so that's like whatever that's it's your business by the way the flyers run of schedule is so they lost to the leafs boston Leafs, Carolina, Boston, Florida, New York Rangers. Oh, my God. They could be out of the playoff picture.

They're missing playoffs. They're missing playoffs. That is. The only thing they have going for them is Caps aren't great. Islanders aren't great. Red Wings aren't great. Who's going to take this spot? That is a gauntlet of all gauntlets, though.

That's rough. They may head into April multiple points out of a playoff spot yeah all right where do you want to go with uh your next uh kipper's clip let's talk about uh the decor um tonight benoit draws back in he's going to play with jake mccabe uh riley with brody edmondson lilligran let's listen to sheldon keith on the least decor yeah i think uh you know we like how the pieces of have fit here. Obviously, we're without Labushkin here tonight, but with he and Edmondson, it gives us far better depth. Really, since their arrival, we've essentially just been kind of rolling

the three D pairs and not concerned about match-ups or anything like that. We think each pair can take on any matchup or responsibility, and we don't have to go chasing things. So that we think is helpful. And then, as I'm sure we'll see tonight with Benoit coming in, we've got other guys that are hungry that can push the group and can help us respond to illness or injuries like we're going to go through here today.

So those are all healthy things for us. So, I mean, there's two ways to listen to that clip where he's like, yeah, we can match our center. Or it's like none of them are very good, so it just doesn't really matter to us. Yeah, I mean, you said they don't have to chase matchups with these pairs, which is interesting. But who would you match up against the other team? I guess it's going to be Riley and...

Brody? Labushkin? Like, it's just, to me, they can put anyone out there. It's going to be the same results. Yeah, there's not a clear shutdown pair. Benoit McCabe's going to be interesting because Brody and McCabe have not proven they can be a good shutdown pair.

Like, if Benoit... Guys, there's a world where Brody's the guy out am i crazy there i mentioned that i think a week and a half ago two weeks ago that like he could use a night off like if edmondson and lilligren can kind of find something as your third pair and brody Benoit or sorry if McCabe and Benoit click at all Riley and Labushkin there isn't a world that you really think that the Leafs could have a legitimate shot of getting out of the first round if somehow Brody does not find a way to to come back to being a top four guy for them is there well I wonder then if he's a guy like you said that like tavara's who he looks best with rest like could brody use a rest like you said and actually

come back and be a better version of himself because the version he's been lately has not been i gotta think if he if he continues to kind of struggle here, that rest will come sooner opposed to the last five games. I think he could use a reset. Yeah. It actually makes more sense to happen now than later. But, yeah, I just have a hard time believing that Keefe would do it. The other coach just scratches captain. Well, yeah, but there's a conversation we had

about the differences between Sheldon and John Tortorella. But I just think that they've been through so much together, those two guys, and it just feels like he's been his top pair guy. And, I mean, you look at these lineups again tonight, Riley Brody right back at you, top pair. It's just, it feels that they're going to live and die with him playing most nights. And you know what might happen.

But listen, I look at Edmondson and Lilligren. And this is now the push for Lilligren to turn into this offensive pace of play type of guy when he's on the ice i think he's i'm interested in watching him tonight because i think he's got green light written all over him i watched the power plays back that he was on for them what a rally killer oh my god every time the puck touched the stick sticky shot it and just like you know you've got it's matthews and stavaris and it's kneelander and it gets to lilligren who shoots one from 60 feet and the goalie catches it or whatever like okay yeah you know i don't know maybe he'll be better with a little more time but it's uh it didn't go well last game i guess growing up he was a like an offensive type of defenseman yep right he was drafted he was drafted as a guy that could produce points.

Yeah. What's the best year he's had so far as a Leaf producing? Has he had 30 points? I'd be shocked if he has. I'm looking. You get the Jeopardy music out here? The Jeopardy music. In the grand total, his highest point total is 23. I lied.

It says 23. 23. He's at 20 right now in 47 games how do you think morgan riley's gonna handle this for what the third or fourth time in the last few years where he's just he has to know bumped off i think you can explain it to morgan that you're trying to give this kid a chance to find confidence and to matter and be relevant to the team but yeah I talked about Brody being out in playoffs it's not a pause it's really hard to not see let's say it's a seven game first season or series it's hard to not see Benoit

playing in like five of them to me because it's just bigger problems and at least he's steady and reliable and does his thing so all right let's go all right we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back we'll get uh scott hartnell we'll talk a little flyers and we'll come back and revisit uh the leafs including going back to samsonov wild where does that leave joseph wall presumably playing tomorrow play. Where does that leave the rest of the regular season? I don't know. Who's leaning towards who? We'll get into that more when we return to Real Kipper and Bourne. Get smarter when you listen to Hockey Talk,

the Hockey PDO cast with Dmitry Filipovich. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts all right let's welcome in scott hartnell on a few teams, but the one that's really interesting right now is the one that he played. That was coached by John Tortorella. It's Torch time. All right, what's up, buddy? How are you? I'm great. How are you fellas doing?

We're good. We were thankful for John Tortorella to give us a nice storyline to lead our show today. Scratching his captain tonight in a very important game. You're not about to get arrested, are you? No, did you hear that? No, an ambulance just squeaked by us. I'm heading to hockey practice here with my boy and then heading down to do the pre and the post for Wells Fargo Center tonight. So a busy couple hours here right now.

But, yeah, like you said, Coot's getting scratched. I'm scratching my head wondering why. And honestly, all afternoon I'm just thinking, like, is this a game plan? Is it a head game? Is it a wake-up call to the group that no one's safe, everyone needs to play better? You know, all these things are going through my mind, and I really haven't put my finger on anything.

Well, we're certainly glad you found time for us, and thank you for that. In saying that, is there anything that you've experienced having him as a coach one time in your career in Columbus that can compare something like this? Well, yeah, I've been scratched, you know, probably three, four regular season games. And we were playing the first round in the playoffs against Pittsburgh.

And, you know, obviously the playoffs are rough and tough. You need to fight for every inch. You need guys, you know, finishing bodies, you know, kind of on the forechecks. And that's basically my game in a nutshell, right? And it was my birthday, April 18th, and game four, we're down 3-0 to the Pens. And he called me, and he's like, just a heads up, just so you're not shocked when you walk in. You know, I know it's your birthday, but you're not in your pipe tonight.

I was like, you know, a little bit upset. I drive in there and i'm like oh my gosh how is this uh summer going to be for me what uh you know kind of the the exit meetings and stuff if we lose tonight and uh anyways uh that was kind of the the most i guess i don't know if embarrass is the right right word but uh you know kind of of head-scratcher, whatever. And so I know how Kutz feels. You know, he got named captain, you know, five, six weeks ago. And then basically, like, the game after that, it was his ice time started to dip. You know, a couple minutes each game, playing, you know, 10, 12, 13 minutes

instead of 19 or 20. And, you know, you talk about production. You can't really get points in this NHL if you're not really on the power play or special teams, right, or playing with some good players. And, you know, so I feel bad for him. He's trying. He's pressing a little bit. You know, you grip the stick a little tighter.

You know, he hadn't played in two years previous, so maybe that time off is really getting to him now. So, you know, maybe it's a hard reset for him. You know, that's how I would take it. And then, you know, you try to shove it up as, you know what, when he gets back in the line, I'm going to escape. So I think, yeah, and like the spin from a lot of torts apologists is just that it doesn't matter who you are.

You know, you can get scratched at any time. Everyone's accountable and all that. But is there a point where, as a player, you're like, I don't care, man. Like, I'm the captain. I'm not going to forget this. Like, can there be a lasting scar here? Yeah. Oh, obviously.

You're going to, you know, he's going to look back at the year and, you know, kind of, I guess, at the halfway point, he had the same number, exactly the same numbers that he had when he won the Selkie trophy for the best two-way forward, right? Beat Patrice Bergeron that year. And, you know, the same points. And then all of a sudden his minutes got slashed, really, almost in half. And he had the seal on his jersey.

So I don't get it just because you're looking for this guy to lead and step up and play those hard minutes and all that stuff. But, you know, it's just a little frustrating. You know, I played with Coutts for, you know, three, four years as a flyer. And, you know, I knew him as a young kid. Obviously, I still see him around town today. And, you know, I know how he's feeling. It's like one of the worst

feelings in the world as a professional hockey player to not get out there and battle with your teammates. You're in a playoff race. That's the thing, too, that I think Kutz is struggling with. He'd want me to play and shut down Matthews and Marner and Nylander. He hasn't really

been put in a situation like that the last few weeks. I think he's trying to figure out why. And, you know, maybe there's a conversation, you know, him and Torts have to have to either, you know, kind of have a bitch session, I guess, yelling at each other or, you know, kind of calmly talk it out and say, what's the deal here? You know, why? You know, and try and figure that out. But at the end of the day, you know, the guy's got to step up. And, you know, I'm sure in that dressing room, too, they're, you know, why, you know, and try and figure that out. But at the end of the day, you know, the guys got to step up.

And, you know, I'm sure in that dressing room, too, they're kind of looking at each other like, oh, I can't believe he's not playing. But, you know, business is business, you know, and you got to beat this team that came in here last week and absolutely spanked them. We're talking to Scott Hartnell, former National Hockey Leaguer and current NHL Network analyst.

We're talking Flyers and Leafs. Is there a thought here with the Tortorella move that he's looking at something that's slipping out of his hands and maybe could use an excuse on my best players didn't show up when we needed it most. He's looking in the rearview mirror. There's the Washington Capitals. There's the Detroit Red Wings that maybe have turned a corner a little bit here. And something that's slipping out of his hands right now. Are they going to hold on?

Well, yeah. Great question. That's a million-dollar question. They got the Rangers, Boston, Florida, Carolina, their next four games after tonight, after Toronto. So all the teams are at the top of the Eastern Conference. So it's very interesting to see how this week will go. If they can go 500 or win four to five, that might be a little bit of a stretch.

But they'll put the challenge on themselves to do it. Towards when he first got here last year, it was, you know, rebuild mold, got right down to the foundation, you know, figure out what we got here, blah, blah, blah. You know, and then this year the bar was set even lower, I think, because everyone picked the Flyers to be, you know, third last or dead last, right? And so I think, you know, in that standpoint, they've had a heck of a season. But now it's crunch time. Now you need to lean on your veterans, I think, personally, in my view, to get you through this kind of hard patch, right?

And you've got to play them. You've got to get them out there in all situations. And, you know, he's doing the opposite, you know, which is kind of obviously it's his ship to run, you know, think or swim, right? So that's kind of the whole deal that he has, and he's doing it the way that he thinks has given his team the best chance to win. So when you look to guys in your room

and you say, okay, we're without Couturier, we're without Atkinson, and you say you're the guys who need to pick it up, the veterans they do have, you know, Mark Stahl and Eric Johnson aren't exactly lifelong Flyers. Like, who are the guys here in this Flyers room that can say, okay, we'll carry the mantle in these guys' absence?

Well, one tip has been playing really well. The top line, Morgan Frost, who I'm sure you guys covered too, he was scratched 12 of the first 25 games, right? And he's been playing really well the last couple, few weeks. Travis Konechny, he's got four assists in his last three games and he hasn't scored, so he's due for a big night. You've got a lot of young guys that are starting their NHL career that are trying to prove themselves to get going.

We'll see what happens. Mark Stahl is hopefully scratch tonight as well. So they're going, going with the youth movement tonight and you know, we'll see where, where, where that gets them. But you know,

if I'm, if I'm the Maple Leafs, you know, I'm, you know, I'm, you got to press the pedal down here in the first five minutes and try and bury this fragile team.

The Flyers are right now. Hey, Scott, always appreciate your time coming on the show. Have a, have a great day. Have a great practice. Alright. Alright, thanks, Giver. See you guys. Thanks a lot. Scott Hartnell.

See, he's as baffled as we were to start the show. I feel better about our takes hearing someone like him be like... I mean, he covers the team. He played for the Hords. I don't know what this is. I just was looking at for an article

from when Hartnell scratched. This is from Joey Alfari from NBC Sports. Hart scratcher. Torts explain while Hartnell

was a healthy scratch and then you go through and it's all about this. Since becoming the head coach of the Blue Jackets, Tortorella hasn't been shy

about leaving his mark on his new team. How many years is 2015, bud? If we backtracked Tortorella over his coaching career, there's a dozen of these head-scratching scratches.

Right. Yeah, does that... I don't want to repeat that i saw the hamster wheel you said it right i said it right yeah and it's it's it's a thing with him where he's i don't know sitting in a dark room going what can i do to really grab some attention here. Yeah. You know, that does seem like part of it too. Milestone.

He just mentioned his birthday. Yeah. Right? A playoff game on his birthday. That stuff. A playoff game on his birthday. That stuff I'm sure finds a way to factor in on his decision on having a bigger impact.

Someone, I reached out to someone who covers the Flyers too and said that another big one was that he scratched Sanheim with a text message on his homecoming game to Calgary with his friends and family had traveled to see. He doesn't care about people in their hometowns either. This year. Yes. Yeah.

That one's also been noted by a few players over his career. The homecoming or family. The homecoming. Like, I'll show you who's, yeah. Don't care. You know. Non-factor. So as much as people love to be like,

he gets the guy's attention, whatever. It's like, we don't forget that. Travis Sanha. Like, you know, if you're scratching a guy that's a bubble guy in his hometown or whatever i'm not gonna get as bent out of shape like i i got bent out of shape with simone benoit against montreal i thought that was a little bit yeah sketchy or whatever i'm just a number one guy he's like really good i don't care if it's your first time in the nhl or at any point

if you play 10 or 15 years going back home to play in a town that you grew up in is a big deal. A big deal. And you know who it's a big deal for, too? Those people who are a part of your rise? Teammates. Teammates as well. We all know whose hometown we're going to.

We know who's going to see friends and family and school teachers and fellow students because we see them waiting after practice we it's a big deal so sammy i get what you're saying that if it was a a star it's one thing but it doesn't matter to any of us it kind of you feel it in your room that it's it's awkward and we don't like to be off we don't like to feel awkward yeah and i will say you know there is um a quote from atkinson from a month ago where he talked about how he doesn't care about who gets scratched. It can be anyone. It's not meant to be personal.

It's a wake-up call, and you've got to come back and be better and all that. But eventually, eventually, this stuff sticks with you a little bit. Okay, before the break, we mentioned Samsonov going back in tonight. Yes. I am kind of surprised. I'm surprised too, but I think they're looking at it as a two-game set

in which guy do you want to play which night. Yeah, and why not give Samsonov and go back to his former team in Washington? I think if I avoid the head games for old Sammy who's already in his own ears a bit, maybe not go spend time with his ex-girlfriend. Has he won there? He's won there already, has he not?

I can't remember. I don't... But I remember him speaking at length about how much he hated it the one time. Remember the first game back there? He was like, I'm really nervous. And I'm like, I, you know, just. So maybe if you're going to pick a game for each guy, you say who cares, who goes when, and might as well just.

But no, I do think it's surprising that it's Samsonov first. I think it's a statement about who's the starter and who's the backup. To me, it's about the set. I got to go with Sammy a little bit here that I think it's leaning towards, like we spent the other day talking about is it going to be every other start now for each one of them, trying to prepare both of them, or is there a sense that

sammy could get nine or ten of the last 16 now see to me it's like what's the split for you unless wool got hurt last game against boston unless something flared up on him then they're gonna want to get this guy back in it's now been 10 days when was that 10 days. I was going to say, well, when was that? 10 days ago since Wall played. So to me, it's like they're going to want to get him back in, obviously. So to me, it's like, okay, we got back to back. They're both going to play. You're just picking which guy you want to play which game. But if it is,

you know, unless something's hurt or it's about the set, then it's really, I don't know, then it would be very strange to be like, I didn't like him against the Boston Bruins in Boston on a back to back. So now the other guy's the starter. All I know is you get past tonight and tomorrow night in Washington and you got the Edmonton Oilers coming in and I'm not flipping a coin to start the goalie.

I like our talk yesterday. It's going to be whoever plays better the next two nights. I'm going with... I'm not sure. Now, I'm not sure. I bet it's him. I'm not convinced right now that it'll come down to just these two starts i think i think sheldon believes that sammy's put in enough work and enough effort since january 1st and i know that you're no no no i i get it i get it. I know that he still has his 890 season average. Yeah.

But he's probably 910, 912 since January 1st. I think they're putting a lot of stock in that. Well, then all I'll say is that the two starts for a wall, giving him Boston, you can't take those two and say, he didn't play well enough in those games, so now we're moving on. To me, what it is is that you're trying to build the confidence of samson off and maybe i just had the wrong read on this they gave him the easier games to get him the confidence because they see him as the number one guy and they want him feeling better they're less worried about

wool's confidence and yeah maybe this is about shaping samson off to be their guy in playoffs all right for the leaf we don't go any further than against the bruin tonight the toronto maple shaping Samsonov to be their guy in playoffs. All right. For the Leafs. We don't go any further than... Against the Bruins. Tonight, the Toronto Maple Leafs, Philadelphia Flyers, it will be Samsonov's start.

We'll see where this conversation starts tomorrow. Can't wait. Can't wait. Bart Scott. All right. Our thanks to Scott Hartnell in the first hour. Don't go away as we go national next. Mike Rupp will join us as we cover the National Hockey League with Rupp.

We haven't had Rupp on in a while. Looking forward to it. Excited about it. Stick around, folks. Real Kipper and Born.