Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Winless Weekend

Episode Date: January 15, 2024

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee get right into what was a woeful weekend in Leafs land, the team's inability to close out games, Sunday's jumbled lineup and Keefe starting to feel the heat. Later, an in-depth conversation about Keefe's job security, whether he's done enough on the development side, if the roster is strong enough to bounce back after a coaching change and the pressure on him for the team's west coast trip. They close with a look at Samsonov's return on Sunday and how he should be worked back in to regular starts.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

let's welcome in everybody for the real kipper and born show for the next two hours we're glad you're aboard wherever you're watching and listening sportsnet 590 sportsnet 360 sports net plus wherever you get your podcast. And also if you can't catch us live, there's an opportunity on YouTube to find us last year and a half. I think YouTube's been a special place for a lot of people to go. And we're glad that once again, you have that option. And if you can give us a rating and review any chance you can get. Special day.

South of the border. Martin Luther King Jr. Day. So we got to acknowledge our friends south of the border. Wishing them a meaningful Martin Luther Jr. Day, which meant also five games in the National Hockey League this afternoon. Yeah.

And five tonight, including our Monday night Rogers Hockey with David Amber, which goes Avs and the Canadians as well. And, Sammy, thanks for joining us today. I thought for sure it was just going to be JB and I because you were supposed to go to Buffalo and shovel. Yeah.

You couldn't pay me enough, bud. Did you guys see the video that's out there right now? So when's kickoff? In about 35? Half hour. Half hour. There are people that are trucking through four, five feet of snow above their seats. You know, you bought a seat.

If there's something in it, you just got to move what's in your seat. No, no, I'm sorry. No, no, no, no, no. I'm taking the angle on that one. I paid top dollar. I should be able to see my seat. No, no, no. You got a place in the building.

You know, do your own shoveling. No, Kip no. You got a place in the building. Do your own shoveling. No, Kip, I'm with you. How can they not give some sort of refund back? How do they not have a company? It's a 70 seat, 70,000 seat stadium. It snowed 10 feet yesterday.

You can't get enough people in there to get it all out in time. Mr. Plow doesn't exist and a bunch of me snowblowers. Sure, there's got to be some solution here. No, there's no solution. It's Mother Nature. They had to literally move the game. There is something out there where, like,

men shoveling equals heart attacks sometimes. Well, you know what? I hope everybody's okay. All jokes aside, that's what happened to my grandfather. It's a very real thing. It's a real thing. Yes. I'm sorry to hear that.

Yeah, well, it was a long time ago. He just went out there. He had a stroke. There's a shovel in the whole thing. Stroke. Not a heart attack. Well, sorry to hear. Yeah, sorry to hear.

Hold on. Okay. That was not where I was intending to take this. It's okay. The point is, he lived. It made it real. Anyway. But they're paying these poor saps $20 an hour.

I mean, you're the Buffalo Bills. I actually think they're paying them just $20. No, I thought it was $20 an hour. Is that what it is? Okay. So you're out there grinding for three hours. You're not there for the money, Sam. You make $60, and that doesn't cover your medical bills

for your slipped disc and your torn labrum. Or the flame thrower you had to buy to remove it. Oh, my God. Yeah. Tough. Poor Bill. I mean, I wouldn't do it in a million years. Okay.

You give me field access, I'm going to be right here with you guys. No chance. Playing quarterback. So this is our Leaf edition of the Real Kipper and Bourne Show. And we've got listeners and watchers right now going, excuse me, the Leafs lost back-to-back games on the weekend. And you're starting your show with shoveling and heart attacks. We could probably tie those things to the Leafs.

The Leafs have been shoveling something. It's just not snow. Giving their fans some aneurysms. Three straight games where they've blown three leads at various times. This is now the halfway point. JB, you and I, with elliot and david amber uh did the the show last night uh on the game you know when i first broke in the league with the washington capitals uh you know i'd be kind of like this healthy scratch in and out and out and then i play a couple games and

uh bobby rouse remember bobby rouse yes, hey, Kipro, what's our record with you in the lineup? And he says, you know, there's only one answer to that, and it's I don't know, but it's just getting better every game. Yeah. Now, we do the regional broadcast for the Leafs, and if someone's to ask me the question what our record is this year, Now, we do the regional broadcast for the Leafs. And if someone's to ask me the question what our record is this year, I'd almost have to answer, I don't know,

but it seems like it's getting worse every game. Is it us? I think we got one dub on the board. One. Yeah, the 831. Yeah, the morning game against Detroit. Do we need breakfast games to make us look good? And it's not like they've been handed a murderer's row. We've seen them lose to Columbus, Columbus, Detroit, I guess Boston.

Yeah. Anywho, yeah, it was an interesting game, an interesting weekend for the Maplers. They're at a bit of a well they're at the halfway point of the season right now is that right 41 exactly it is and they are on a hundred point pace exactly and they you know every year there's ups and downs ebbs and flows i would say you're on a down and a flow right now so we got some things to talk about i this is where like i'm such an amateur host i haven't got a clue where to start this conversation the only reason you're saying that is because we don't want to

get too hard into it too fast well let's talk about the hockey games let's start there let's start with the week okay so i i you tell me okay do we here here's our choices okay all right we can start uh uh you can start i can start sheldon can start on his overview of the games or we can go to the heart and soul of what leaf nation is feeling by going letting sammy go first not that one that's no okay okay do you want to talk about colorado or do you want to just talk about Detroit? Okay, so let's go overview of the Colorado game. They're up 3-0. They lose 5-3.

Clip one, please. Listen, to me, there's a couple things. If you're going to win this game and compete against that team, especially when they're shorthanded like they are with the injuries and such that they have, you've got to be even or better on special teams, and you've got to be even or better on special teams and and you've got to be even or better against their best players you know if you let their power play give them an advantage and if their best players outplay ours you're in tough you're not gonna you're not gonna beat that team that's

so we didn't win the special teams and and you saw what their best people did tonight. It's tough to win. As much as the Domi line got us going in the first period, as much as we got from those guys, they need the whole game. And that's, like I said, the top group they have, that's their big time. Their big time.

So to me, that was a lot of passive aggressive of saying their best guys were great and our best guys weren't. He never said our best guys weren't, but he preys on the Colorado Stars, and we saw how the minutes played out. They barely used the second line. Tavares eventually benched, essentially, in the third period, team captain.

We haven't really seen that before. Yeah, and you had some commentary on that pre-game before detroit so what did you think of that colorado game and how it was handled uh i think it was uh consistent with their inconsistencies where they they can look very solid they can look very good to to lead to a three nothing lead and for some reason that I cannot, I mean, there's a number of reasons, let's be honest, but the term like locking it down doesn't seem to exist right now.

They just, they don't know how to close it out. They don't know how to close it out. They don't know how to lock it down. They don't know how to play the percentages of defensive hockey. Yeah, there's like this game state lack of awareness. And I mentioned on our broadcast last night, the fourth goal that Colorado scores. You know, there's three and a half minutes left. It's 3-3.

Jake McCabe goes down the gut in the O zone to like chip in and look for a chance. You know, don't love that to begin with, but Willie Nylander folds in behind him, covers for him, good job. But then Willie dives in, pinches on a play trying to get a puck that he can't get, falls down,

and Colorado goes the other way. And then they score on that rush. Willie changes on the way back and bobby mcmahon gets the minus three and a half minutes left how do you have mccabe and neilander make decisions that aren't for the good of the team i hated that goal hated and you want to save too of course you want to save i mean it's a world-class player, shoots it low glove. Like, it looks bad on Jones, and he probably should have had it. But the events that led to that upset me. Shouldn't be a rush.

They upset me. You know? Well, just that line, and we can talk about those guys getting put up as the top line, and Keith gets to that. But it just, when those three guys have the possession low in the zone, McCabe, you play defense. Stay high. It's like they have possession. But it just, when those three guys have the possession low in the zone, McCabe, you play defense. Stay high.

It's like they have possession. It's like there's no need for it. The change Willie made really bothered me too because you should have been the first guy back. Like, oh, no, I blew my coverage. How does Mitch Marner, who's behind the net, when Willie, you're the third guy ends up being the first forward back and being in position at least he was in a position to potentially block a shot yeah you're off the ice at that point if they're not down four three at

that time you know they're not trying to create something offensively it's a western division team or conference team does anything is anything said to willie on that play at all or does he have now the the 11.5 million dollar contract where you don't get to hold him accountable for something like that no now you have all right to hold him accountable you've given him the money and expectations are high i think but i will say and just for the interest of we have to discuss it since he signed the contract you got a bunch of heat for tweeting about it but willie hasn't had a good shift in three games he got them and i'm not saying he stopped trying when he got... It's probably correlation, not causation.

But he hasn't been good for three games in a row since the contract. Well, I mean, the first game he plays after the contract is the Sharks. Yeah. Which, it's the Sharks, and everybody lights him up. He gets three points in that game, three assists. So give him credit for those. Sure. After that, it's been noticeable.

And I don't want to bury him immediately but that's what comes with signing an extension like that is the expectations and it has been noticeable to me through three games where you need them you're playing he's one of the guys he's one of the stars and you're the other team stars in a couple of the games we're better anyways no we have a clip on that too if we want um On why he took Willie off. Yeah, let's hear it. Yeah. It's clip two, please.

I mean, you guys are watching the game. Like, when McKinnon's line gets out there with McCarr and Taves, I mean, the caliber of play. Like, that's not the NHL. Like, that's another league, right? So, I didn't think we were handling that uh very well so I I just thought putting our best people together and going best on best give us a chance to keep the puck away from those guys a little bit more could help us at the same time kind of

try to get more out of Willie because uh Willie on his line was was not good um that line was not good for us at all tonight I don't know if they didn't have one good shift that I can remember. So I had to get Willie away from that. So all those things just kind of fit. That looked exactly like playoffs to me where you're playing a really good team and things aren't going your way, and Keith goes, looks at the buttons to hit and goes load up you know like immediately let's get get our best guys together and see if that works that's like it either works

or you load up the top line and there's no plan c let me ask you guys this has that ever worked has marner matthews and nylander going to together like i'd love to know what their production is together it feels like it doesn't it does statistically last i checked it like grades out they create a lot still but i don't ever remember a game where it's like they pulled them through yes something but the columbus game in the bubble where they took him to ot in the third maybe oh the bubble didn't happen yeah doesn't it seem like a million years ago that this team was in training camp and the thought was Willie was going to try a third line center ice position and that they were going to kind of spread this thing around and add depth. And now you're loading them up.

Yeah. And you haven't hit the halfway mark here. What kills me is when they put Willie at center, they said this isn't a short-term experiment. We're going to give this some run. If we can find the clip, I believe, I'm not asking for it. He actually says we're going to give this some run. They gave it like nine seconds.

And it's so polar opposite to where you are today. That statement, that that statement that belief that philosophy that we're going to try something different and now you're just resorting to i don't know like it looks desperate to me when you put those three guys on the line i agree and so you commented on the show last night that tavarsres doesn't play. Nyes gets bumped to the fourth line, barely used. And then, you know, I think they put Tavares out there down a goal with 30 seconds after his first shift and over 20 minutes of real time. Yeah.

And I just, and this isn't on, this isn't Tavares. This is Tavares. Okay, say what you will. You can have any conversation you want with Tavares this is Tavares okay say what you will like you can have any conversation you want with Tavares either he's he had an off night or he's it's starting to kind of digress a little bit for him he's got uh last 10 games so since Christmas he's got four points minus five and listen the guy tries his he's he's out there working his ass off whatever he's got four points minus five and listen the guy tries his he's he's out there working his ass off whatever he's got to give you he's given it i can assure everybody but on this particular night he didn't have it and why do you let him sit for 21 straight minutes and then go back to him in the last minute when the legs have completely

seized up yeah it's uh we've talked about this theme from sheldon a lot right he wants every game he wants to win the two points and he thinks that tavarez will give him a better chance than whoever else is playing more he'll go back to guys and you know that hasn't always worked out and it certainly didn't against Colorado. So, yeah, so they blow that one. They go into Detroit. Anything else on that? Well, I just, the visual to me of elevating Nylander is horrible.

Yeah, it was like a punishment spot, but they were like. I mean, you guys watched the game closely like I did. Domi was by far their best forward to that point in that game. They had three points. You have two points in the first period. Anyways, scores a goal. He's been great. If you're watching, Holmberg, our boy,

was buzzing the whole period, really playing well. Try, like he did it last night. He put them in a different spot. Try something else like watch don't just have your first instinct to be like you said the button the loaded up button like Domi was excellent through the first half of that game elevate him yeah try something else so yeah so they did going into Sunday's game um Holmberg joins Matthews and Nylander.

Is that right? That's who it was, yeah. And then, yeah, Domi and Marner got a chance to play together with Bertuzzi on the left side. And I will say, everyone, you know, I know there's some talk about Sheldon today and we're going to have some about him too. But, like, I thought, actually, Sam,

you might have made this point on Leafs talk, that a lot of what he did, or maybe Bunk did, was exactly what everyone is saying he should do. let's see these guys in some different spots mix the lines up let's see you know the domey and marner together let's see some you know the stars on three lines he gave something new a chance so i don't we have a clip on that if we want to hear him on the new lines the concerning thing for me after he does that where you lose a bad bad loss where you don't show up for half of the game you change the lineups it's the second end of a half back to back the red wings got to the rink at 7 45 p.m you kind of figure that's like a wake-up call and the teammate comes shot out of a cannon, right? And they didn't.

They did the exact opposite. And that would be concerning to me. Just one more before we kind of move on to last night. And once again, just this feel that it just doesn't come naturally to this club to have reactions when one of their stars gets run. And we saw it Saturday night. Josh Manson, cross-check, no cross-check.

I'll have that conversation with you on whether there should have been a penalty or not all day long. But regardless, the mere fact that he, Josh, can get a free shot on your best score, your most dangerous guy out there, your star, your face, whatever you want to say, and just not have any type of reaction off of it other than this little scrum where everybody's looking not at each other, just anywhere but,

and then they happily move on. It's like, why? I know it's not in their personality catalog, and they have shown signs of it, but it's not a sometimes thing. It's an all the time thing. Kip, your boy, Mitchie, can't be exempt from it. You know, like I know he's not a tough guy. No, he has to be exempt from it.

He's six feet tall and he's the first guy to manson. He's the first guy in. Right, exactly. Which is supposed to start the pack mentality. Right. And listen, he is exempt. He is not the guy. But just the mere fact that he's there should have caused Gregor to come in

and say something to him. Gregor, you're a fourth-line guy, okay? You're not a first guy in waiting. You are a fourth-line guy guy you will always be a fourth line guy and you have fought before i'm not saying that you have to fight josh manson but i'm just saying you got to come in now and relieve marner from that spot and say you got to come through to me before you get to marner i got to protect marner too there that's you know to me i you get to Marner. I got to protect Marner too there. That's, you know, to me,

I'm fine with the idea that the Leafs need to stay on this for sticking up for another thing that is something they've struggled with for years or whatever, but it's like the 300th most important talking point from that game to me. Like, they've been better at this. It hasn't been a reason to me

that they're crummy. I know we still want it, but I don't know. I didn't look at this weekend and hasn't been a reason to me that they're crummy. I know we still want it, but I don't know. I didn't look at this weekend and go, not tough enough. That was not my takeaway from the weekend. I'll tell you what, though. That clip, when it comes to the playoffs, is going to get shown over and over again to your opponents, and they're going to say,

this is how you play against Matthews. It's just not news. But you know what else is not news? That Matthews kind of gets shut down in the playoffs. That's not news either. And this is the way you do it. Yeah. I mean, they are.

That's all. There's no secrets about what they are. They are four superstars, and they need to be playing well for them to have a chance to win. And so everyone piles on the superstars, you know, like free shots every time you can get one. There's no secrets here. I didn't think, I mean, that was a shot,

but I didn't think it was like a malicious play. It deserved a conversation. It deserved somebody to go over to him. But I think he had the puck and a stick, and he just did like a push with the stick, caught him in the sweet spot, obviously. But like, I didn't think that was, the Marchand situation or one of those. Like, I think on the grade of things that were bad.

He got him keeled over. You got to go ahead and do something. I agree. He's down, and he looks hopeless, and it looks like your best players. Listen, it's just a bad look. I'm sorry. It's a bad look. Yeah, agreed. I mean, agreed it's just a bad look I'm sorry it's a bad look yeah agreed I mean agreed it's it's not

you think you made strides and you took two back that's all yeah no I'm just saying that yes okay it's not a sometimes thing you can't Matthews to get up and punch him in the face so he'll never do that he won't but so And I've moved on from that. It's just not the way he is. I had this very conversation with my old man yesterday. It's like, just got to. He won't do it. It's just not going to happen.

So stop waiting because it's not going to happen. It's got to be another plan, another solution. So quit asking. Yeah. Nick, save it over here. Just your first gut instinct, your first thought when you saw the lines going into Detroit, that is as much as the bingo-bango balls

that we've seen out of Sheldon, perhaps his whole Leaf tenure. Yeah. You know, my first thought was that good. I think that a little bit of newness and excitement might uh you know what could be a sleepy game on a back-to-back detroit's not as great a team i thought this might inspire a few guys you'd get holmberg going maybe domey'd be excited to play with marner you know maybe robertson excited to be in the lineup you know like just you get the guys a little juice for the game and uh

and uh not a lot no yeah i i thought when i looked at those lines and pratt in warm-up i was like oh he's feeling it sheldon's feeling it because it is so far out of character to put it willie yeah like three separate lines for those guys never never happens. And I was like, oof, he's feeling it. But he should. And to me, it's good coaching to be like, okay, we got to try something else. If he just rolls out the same lineup, it's like, are you even coaching at all?

What were your thoughts? Yeah. That I did like the changes. Just, I did not want to see Willie Matthews loaded up like that. Like, if someone's going to drive a line, I think you're best saying to Willie, do it. You go be the third line center, if you like. Yeah. Go be the guy in the third line,

and you should be able to drive possession. How many shots did Willie have last night? Four or five? Well, he had eight attempts when you asked mid-game. I don't know what it ended up being. He shot pucks that I thought normally he wouldn't shoot. Yeah. So you thought he was starting to force it?

Yeah, starting to force it. And, like, you've got one shooter on that line last night i saw two guys trying to fight to get shots and the lack there was a tremendous lack of chemistry between neilander and matthews last night so two shooters last night is what i saw yeah so you would just rather go with you you would stick with Marner and Madden together. Do you want to hear the clip on why he did it? Yeah, absolutely. Okay, I think that is clip...

Seven. Seven. What inspired is just coming off those two games and the nature of the back-to-back here. I just felt it was a good time for some change. There's a couple things that I've been wanting to try for for some time now in particular getting Marner back with Domi you know since we since the one game we did that when when Austin was sick that went really well for us and I've been wanting

to go back to it but it's just you know it was that I just never felt the timing was quite right so today to me me, it was good timing. And then just the nature of how our game went and some of our guys yesterday, I felt it was a good time to change some things. In terms of how it went, I thought Mitch Marner was excellent here tonight. I really liked how he and Domi worked together

and with Bird as well. It's a couple of big time plays. So there you go. That's why he did it. Yeah. It gives you an answer to why he didn't stick with Matthews and Marner together. He wanted to try Domi and Marner because he liked it.

It's funny because like, I like the lines, but then you're left with that Tavares, Yarncroft, Robertson line. That is like a, here's what's left when you put the puzzle together line, and that's not a viable line. Well, it just shows their lack of depth and forward, right? The one thing that I did not like at all was just watching last night in the last 10 minutes,

particularly when the game's on the line and you've used Nyes, Matthew Nyes, all but two minutes, 220. I just, for the life of me, I can't understand why Sheldon would go through his rotation and then decide to put Matthew Nyes and Gregor, your fourth line with the game on the line with two minutes to go. Yeah, you know, I'm different in that they play two, like they have the two lines you know you're going to play no matter what, right?

And then you can't just play two lines. No. Well, you can play the guys that you believe that can get the job done. And I don't know. To me, getting the job done doesn't necessarily mean going for the game-winning goal. It's just covering yourself, too. You got to get to. Yarncroft and Tavares and Robertson.

No, no, no. That needed to be Domi. And my best 200-foot player, Marner, in the last six minutes, had, what, a shift and a half? That was Marner. Marner needed to be on the ice with two minutes to go. Was he on the shift before that? Like, I don't think he's under playing those guys in big minutes it's it uh i think it went if i'm not

mistaken the shift before that was tavaris and then he went to his fourth line yeah i'm sorry but marner's got to be on the ice in the last two minutes to me you make the you put them out there the fourth line out there enough throughout the period so that you're ready to have your best guys on the ice at the end of a game when it's tight. Listen, Matthew Nyes has regressed, okay? He's in his first year. He's still learning how to be a pro. You don't have him on the ice in the last two minutes.

You don't. Yeah. You've dropped him from the first line to the fourth line, and now the game's on the line, and you got a college kid out there. I think you're calling it a fourth line, not you, but I think we and everyone's calling it a fourth line because no one has the heart to say that that Tavares line is the fourth line. I like the Nyes, Kampf, and Gregorregor is a line fine you know today you go online

open cop was at the end yeah that was between gregor and and matthew nize they sucked bad play brutal so you know everything i see today is you know what's keith doing and he let you know people are talking fire keith is it seed hot whatever that game to me and the game before it themselves there's nothing in those games where i go that's why you fire keith if you want to fire keith to me it's like you think that you need a new voice or a new motivation or a new system a new sure something like that to me like oh we didn't deploy the right guy he's very good at that he has proven to be a successful coach in this league in the regular season and also if you don't play a guy like nize in these moments you get to the playoffs and you

go you didn't play him there all year you can't use them no you can't so you have to give them opportunities in close games you're playing game 41 against detroit listen you can't use them then this is a team that's supposed to win now this isn't a process where you're building knives up to be how's it not yes it is no it's not it's not now you're asking a kid to come out of college first of all and step on the first line mistake okay and now you're you're grooming knives to be the guy in the last two minutes to protect the lead in a year that you're supposed to be contending for the stanley cup that's in a process of building your team up that to me is not that situation anymore you're trying to win a stanley cup

this year and i don't think that mat that Matthew Nyes will ever be this year the guy that you're going to first throw over the boards to protect the lead with two minutes to go. If you look at their left wing position, and you in particular have highlighted how weak it is, you're not going to be in a situation where you don't need Matthew Nyes to play meaningful minutes. If you go to overtime in the postseason, you can't not play Nyes.

He's going to be one of your three best left wingers. He's going to be on the ice in situations that matter. I don't think shying away from those is the right way to play it. I know he's not playing well right now, but to me it's like there's arguments for getting rid of Keefe. Whatever happened this weekend to me is not them. Yeah. See, I see it me is not them. Yeah. See, I see it differently.

I see matchups. I see at times that under 10 last night, Tavares, Nick Robertson, and Yarncroft had almost a two minute shift i'm like like how did how does sheldon allow nick robertson to be out there for two minutes i'm like it's it's ridiculous i mean shifts too long by guys and um so yeah it's just what do you say so what are you saying here like i'm saying that sheldon needs to grab a hold of this like there's there's just a lack of discipline that i see stemming from sheldon right now i do i see it on certain matchups i've seen fourth line guys out there on offensive zone face-offs that probably could have used your top lines.

Seeing the fourth line out there or struggling a young player like Nyes, you protect them. You got to put them in a position to succeed. I don't think putting them out there in the last two minutes did that. You know, the biggest thing that I see from a deployment factor that I don't like is the idea of sitting guys down and then the game's late and it's close and you need them again. And that, to Vara's point, is a pretty egregious one.

We see him do it with Willie, you know, where it's like, oh, I'm not happy with him, you miss a shift, but then you need him again and you go back to it. Like, even the line changes okay but what happened now is that you've essentially what what sheldon's done now is he switched out marner's importance and he's now given it to willie and now marner's into kneelanders position of probably the third guy now on the depth chart because if you take a look at last night i think matthews and neilander came over 20 minutes 21 minutes and marner was at 17 and a

half we've never seen that yeah never ever particularly and we're seeing neilander start a tight game yeah and it's a tight game and shorthanded situations. Nylander starting to kill penalties as the first guy. Again, there seems to be a switch going on in the last little while. Yeah. Their special teams have been bad. You've got to do something. So, I mean, to me, Mitch is still your best, most accountable 200-foot player on the team.

And right now, I don't know where Sheldon's going with this, you know, moving forward. I don't understand. So how serious is this conversation about Sheldon with Toronto? Like, are people just upset over a few game losing streak here or is this something where the organization itself would be unhappy? It's a long

relationship now. He's one of the more tenured guys in the league. Do we need to go to break? We got five more minutes. No, I'm okay. We can pick up Sheldon the conversation on Sheldon after the break. We can hit a break.on, the conversation on Sheldon after the break. I'm okay keeping it going.

We can hit a break. Okay, let's hit a break. All right, more on the Leafs, more on Sheldon, Keefe, and more on the Leafs heading out west on The Real Kipper and Bourne Show. We'll be right back. Your daily dose of everything NFL. It's the Fan Checkdown with Matt Marchese and Donovan Bennett. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee. The real Kipper and Bourne show before the break. We were talking Sheldon Keefe, and a lot of people are starting to have that discussion on where are the Leafs with Sheldon Keefe, and is it a coaching issue here? Is it a roster issue?

Would possibly a coaching change make a difference big difference little difference no difference at all i'm not sure they're discussions they are being yelled at us from all facets yeah the text line everybody in my life it's getting hot here boys but you know what it gets hot when people don't know why the team is losing. Well, I know why the team is losing in the last few games. The start has been crap. Well, they haven't done nearly as much as they did in earlier games. But when a team with good players loses a bunch in a row, everyone goes, Coach?

There are some teams, like, I'll go back to the L.A. Kings win on the road, and I know the L.A. Kings LA Kings have lost like eight in a row. It's ugly there too. But I want to give the Leafs credit for, in my opinion, looking like a total team win. I think one of the issues with keith over the last few years is that a lot of his wins have strictly come off four guys and their offense and and less about a top to bottom look you can agree with that or disagree with that well or argue if that's the way the roster is

constructed and he's just using the tools he has. But why is it constructed like that? Because of Sheldon? Well, you've got 16 other guys on the bench. They're at your disposal. But you have seemed to have set it up that if these four guys don't go, you don't win. Hey, he went with Nyes and crew with two minutes left last game.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, in January. But where you been for the last four and a half, five years developing other guys? Like Pontus Holmberg is a wonderful example. And I told you guys I like this guy, big, strong. He can do a lot of things. Sheldon or Brendan or Brad decide he has a crappy training camp

and we're going to put him in the minors. And I'm like, okay, he may have had a crappy, but work through it. You have something here. That looks bad now. All you did was delay and set him back. And he should have been further up in the program of development than in the last week. Everybody notices him now.

I just think that maybe if Sheldon would have sacrificed a little bit less on his dependent of four guys, maybe there might have been another Holmberg that has surfaced quicker. He's now, I don't know if he's, he might be too late to the party, the accountability party for me sheldon there's a race between now and the end of the year that sheldon like what did did the light switch go on all of a sudden that we've heard accountability more than we have since the day he was hired years ago yeah i you know i kind of think it may be a tree living thing or it may be a thing where he recognizes that the way it's been going, hasn't been working and, you know,

we need to do something differently, but you know, again, you know, I don't mean to be this, you know, argumentative today, but I don't think the development's been,

who have they had? They, all these guys in one year contract comes in, it's Kasha, it's bunting. It's, you know, all these one year guys that are in the middle of their

careers i just don't know pierre engvall he developed the hell out of him and that guy went and got seven years somewhere else when they traded him rasmus sandin played here for four years he's gone like i they just haven't had anyone to me this is a lot of this is gm issues you know it's it's the way this team is built, and that's a worthwhile criticism too. Or the way it was left by Kyle Dubas. Sure. But we had the same conversations when he was here with Dubas, right? Like, it's not like he left it any different than he, yeah, I guess he gave everything away.

I sit there and I go, even if they made a coaching change, like, I'm not sure, Like, I'm not convinced. There's stuff that I don't like to see out of Sheldon, but I'm not convinced that if they were to fire him tomorrow and bring in Craig Berube, if this roster is strong enough to even make a significant difference. I think that's an important point what in terms of

true talent where is the least roster in the league right now i think they're like 12th in the league and points percentage or whatever in terms of true talent are they much better than that can you squeeze maybe a couple extra places up the standings than that their decor is you know morgan riley and and like jake mccade had a very tough week tough week weekend yeah tough weekend and again like last night on the game winning goal he leaves his feet again saturday night we're watching him Slide right by Nate It looked like It looked like a Top Gun movie for me Remember, not the new Top Gun

The old Top Gun Do you see them? Never seen any of them You're out of this conversation In the early Top Gun So you got Maverick and Goose saying Okay, you know what, we're going to hit the brakes and the MiG is going to fly

right by us that's what you saw huh McCabe's the MiG I think that's a fairly accurate assessment of McCabe actually it's pretty good very much so so yeah I think

having Craig Brubé out there, which fits the profile of hard-ass guy that's taken an underachieving team. This is the cycle of coaches, right? The hard-ass, the different. You know what I mean? It's like Leaf fans are looking at that being like, well, he's the hard-ass guy that's taken an underachieving team

after the coach got fired that was in the basement up to the top. These prima donnas need some accountability. It's the perfect storm right now where every losing streak is going to have this. His name out there does change the pressure because he is a sought-out guy. It's getting loud on this Western road trip, boys.

This is a huge road trip for Keefe. It is. I'm telling you, they go into Edmonton, and say what you will about Leaf fans and Edmonton fans, it's a little rivalry here. It's a rivalry, no question. They hate Leaf fans. We don't really think about them a ton, but they really do hate Leaf fans.

Going out there, the Leafs get starched when the Oilers win their 11th straight game or whatever. It's just going to get louder and louder against other Canadian teams. They're in the spotlight. It's a big, big week for Keefe. It is. I can't look at it any other way. Would Berube be another?

I don't know if there's enough time to... Enough time? enough time to enough time or or is the roster good enough to convince people that if you just make a coaching change this team could compete for the stanley cup like i'm watching this weekend and you want to give up a first rounder for chris tannev i'm not convinced chris tannev would would change this team dramatically you need you may need to give up two first rounders to get two top four type defensemen and yeah like if you're tree living assessing this team there's a chance they're playing poorly enough that you go this year i want to do this do i want to burn assets trying to win this year when I'm not sure about the group we have?

You know, they're getting into that. It's a dangerous game, though. Yeah. Because you have guys that are prime. And, God, that was an eye-opening game against Colorado. Watching those top guys there. Jesus. Keith was right.

Different sport. You know, one thing that should be impactful watch those top guys there jesus feels like like he keep us right different sport you know league one thing that should be impactful on their decision making is look around the league and who's the best team in the nhl we don't have a consensus one that we can all name right now i think our show likes florida quite a bit but like boston's there the rangers are there i know vegas is struggling the canucks and jets are on great runs but my point is there's a dozen teams and the leafs might be one of them that have a chance if things go right at the right time joe wool is healthy and their stars catch fire is is there a world where they do the reverse where they have to play themselves into the playoffs to get hot at the right time like There's other things you can convince yourself. But they just, I think if they follow the same blueprint

of just waiting for four guys to bail them out, it can't work. There's no world. What's the suggestion to change that? They're going all in on it. They just gave Willie Nylander $92 million. Do you make a change just for the sake of making a change? I mean, I don't know if it can be saved. I don't know.

I mean, you know, this is, we're sitting here right now they they just i understand there's a lot of work there's a lot of work to be done moving forward they just you know had a good run of games they won four games in a row san jose yeah come on they had their best game in three years against the los angeles kings who now can't win a game so maybe it looks a little differently now but still but they had runs against runs in that Colorado game where you're like, all right. Like, you know, Florida blows a lead to Anaheim and loses today. You know, Vancouver loses to Columbus. I'm just saying, like, you know, they're not the only good team to lose games.

And so trying to tease out. They are better than this weekend. Exactly. I get it. Trying to tease out the big picture of where are they. Yeah, they're better than this. They're one I get it. Trying to tease out the big picture of where are they. Yeah, they're better than this weekend. They're one point ahead of the Red Wings. Yeah, I'm sure they've got a couple games in hand there.

I don't. Most likely. Yeah. But yeah, it's. Okay, listen, we'd be remiss if we didn't mention Samsonov. That seemed to be the story of the whole weekend and when he was going to start and if he'd get Detroit, he was good. Unfortunately, he he'd get detroit he was he was good

unfortunately he wasn't better than reimer but hey listen reimer was good reimer was good he was good one one save better yeah i mean the leafs didn't create crap though a positive sign for you i mean does it buy you time sheldon absolutely loved him do we have his comments on samson off clip five yeah let's probably bow his ass off um that's the best i thought he's looked all season just in terms of how he was tracking the puck and some of the saves looked like the sammy that uh you know that we've come that we came to know last season. So I think this is a positive step for him and obviously a disappointing result. Okay, you can't say that

and not start him tomorrow night against Edmonton. What are you talking about? No, I'm serious. You're out of your tree. You would start him against the Oilers. We do not agree. Listen, I thought it was nuts that they started him last night. Same.

Okay? I wouldn't put it past them at all to start him tomorrow night. He just told you that's the best he's looked all year. Yeah, because he's got to juice up the most fragile guy in the organization. I didn't love any of the goals. No, Larkin's goal, he's flat on the goal line on a shot from an angle. Like, go ahead and turn. He goes full Johnny Bauer on the breakaway.

Just play goal. You know, like, I'm not. He let in three on 23. He didn't let in three in 53. Yeah. I'm not even going to begin to guess because every time I guess, I'm wrong. I'm not even close to convinced about anything. Start Jack Campbell.

Loan him to the Leafs. Loan him and start him. We got to read here, it. Start Jack Campbell. Loan him to the Leafs. Loan him and start him. We got a read here, boys. Hold on. From February 1st to 3rd, the All-Stars are in Toronto for NHL All-Star Weekend and will be giving away tickets to the different events in the episodes today until January 26th. Today we have tickets

to the NHL All-Star Thursday, which includes a PWHL 3-on-3 showcase, the NHL All-Star Player Draft, plus a tribute to the 1967 Leafs. To enter for a chance to win, text today's code word, 1967 to 595. Like who wrote?

Is this a joke? Is this a parody? Really? What are they doing to me? Really, 1967? Yeah, text in today's code word 1967 to 590 590 yeah no way whoever wrote this once changes now now this is so cryptic so cryptic yeah by the way buffalo bill's up early seven zip all right well listen that was

one fast hour on the toronto maple leaf another one and i can tell you with 100 certainty we've solved nothing on this show zero but that doesn't mean we're going to continue uh not continue here as we go national next hour gary Gally, terrific analyst for Sportsnet, will join us next as we continue the Real Kipper and Bourne Show. ¶¶