Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Hour: Woll's On a Roll

Episode Date: October 27, 2023

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee start with the Leafs' 4-1 win last night against the Dallas Stars, the importance of building momentum early in the season, what's known about Jake McCabe's likely significant injury, Morgan Rielly's stellar start and puck movement concerns on the top line. They are joined by former NHL goalie Mike McKenna (35:36), who dives deep on Joseph Woll, his time training the Leafs' emerging tendy, Woll's advanced maturity for his age and why Samsonov has struggled so much to start the season.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

All right. Friday. Off the rails Friday. On the real Kipper and Boren show. We are on Sportsnet 590 Sportsnet 360 Sportsnet Plus from 4 to 6 Eastern

Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne Sammy McKee Derek Brandeo Frank the Tank He's out, I forgot to change it Crap I love when the lineups are perfect. So it's Andrew Dutch Holland, longtime colleague of mine.

Same with Derek. Oh, long time that you forgot to put him on the lineup. He's the sweetest guy, and I screw him. Dutchie in the house. Since we're off the rails, can I just quickly, the Raptors show goes on before us. Yes. And I went last night to Alex Wong's book release. Prehistoric.

Prehistoric. I can get it anywhere. It's excellent. I haven't read it yet. But you chirp me for being a celebrity, Kipper. Yeah. That man is a celebrity. Him and Will in general are just, I went to that thing.

There's 600 people in this gym. There are people lined up. You and I couldn't get 60 in a room, I in this gym. There are people lined up. You and I couldn't get 60 in a room, I don't think. No, not a chance. I wouldn't be getting 150 people lined up to talk to me for one minute. That's for sure. So shout out, Alex. It was unbelievable.

They are the Raptors, man. They rep the Raptors. Yeah, 100%. There it is. Nice work, Seth. Well done. I was really impressed by everything last night, it was an incredible event

just wanted to say congrats to Alex looking forward to it for sure have you guys noticed it's Halloween-ish around here yes, there are skulls and spider webs all around us when did this happen I'm looking at the jersey

the Alaska jersey that's what happened to my jerseys year after year when I, you know, spent a large portion on the bench. Yeah, for me in the press box, it just stayed like that. I started collecting cobwebs on it. Is that what happened to this shirt? Yeah, those must have made it from Alaska for me watching hockey games. It's funny that that's the jersey that got trapped in there.

I know. By the way, before we start talking, Leafs, of course, Leaf edition here. And remember to give us texts on Fridays, especially Fridays. We love the texts. So text us 590-590 and we'll read them on air towards the latter part of the show. But before we get to all this hockey talk on Off the Rails Friday, which, by the way, includes Doug McClain. So we've got him back this week.

We'll figure out where he was. And Mike McKenna is going to join us. What's he going to be talking about? Joseph Wall. Oh. Joseph Wall. That makes sense. Okay.

Yeah, right. Right? Yeah. He called it last year on our show. So he'll be the guy. We'll get his thoughts on the climb of the wall. But just last note on Halloween. I don't know if you guys knew this, but years ago, every once in a while,

we'd dress up for Halloween. I know. Yeah. So I got approached this year to dress up Halloween and I got nixed. By who? The guy beside me. I want nothing to do with dressing up. I hate nothing

in the world more than dressing up. I hate it. Why? I don't know. So you weren't a Halloween guy? Hated it. I was never a Halloween guy. I like it with my kids, but I saw the videos of you and DA. DA looking like God knows what.

Colby dressed as, was it the Elsa from Frozen? What was Colby dressed as? No, Game of Thrones. That's as hard as I've ever laughed at as far as that product. We've done Kiss. Oh, yeah. We've done Game of Thrones. I just heard you like to dress up maybe a Sportsnet product. We've done Kiss. Oh, yeah. We've done Game of Thrones. I just heard you like to dress up maybe a little too much.

It can't be. If you want to dress up next week, I'm 100% down. All right, well, we're a little late now. Why? All the good costumes are gone. What are you talking about? I'll dress up like the guy from The Bear. Yes, chef.

I'll just put on an apron. Sammy, people are watching you now on our Sportsnet channels, and they think you're already in costume. What is this? This Canadian yokel with a mullet talking. I don't know. I'm sound-lead. Whatever.

All right. The man leads down the Dallas Stars 4-1 for their third straight win. And have a chance to go 4-1 on this road trip in Nashville Saturday night. Overall, by far their best effort, their cleanest effort. I got out of it. I liked the first period a lot

but is there stuff they can continue to clean up? Absolutely. But get your thoughts out on what you saw last night. Yeah, is there best defensive effort, I think, in the early going in particular? You mentioned the first period. It's funny, on our show yesterday,

we talked about what to expect from the game last night, and I said typically these are the spots that they play well. They go up against a good team. They're on the road. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a good performance, and they gave it to us. A lot of the things you're kind of waiting for to come through positively did. You know, they lose McCabe early and 5D rally and play an excellent hockey game.

So it's funny. Early in the season like this, they're 5-2. It doesn't feel like the season's really started, right? Like they're just kind of out of the gates. They're only seven games in, whatever. But if things are going bad, it can feel like the season's really started, right? Like they're just kind of out of the gates. They're only seven games in, whatever. But if things are going bad, it can feel like the season is about to be lost. Just ask Calgary and Edmonton.

Well, that's it. Right. So the Leafs still feel like they're finding their way, but they've done well enough that it's. And let's be honest. That loss to Chicago. Yeah. At home.

Right. Yeah. It didn't feel like it's still a brand new season. It was like, what's going on here? Yeah, well, they were 2-2 at that point, right? And that's just the part of being a market in Canada. Yeah. Because everybody thinks it's the longest season

in the world right now in Edmonton and Calgary. And now that the Leafs have won a few, it's like, okay, everybody's taking a deep breath everybody's calm now they're they're not gonna suck that's a good sign and now it's like okay now their record actually is up there with all the better teams now in the league and they're really where they're they should be right don't you think that the I've always believed that the start of season positivity what do you got going on? I'm just trying to shut my phone. I just turn on silent every time.

Not only does he not turn his phone on silent, he just turns the volume up, I think. What's the opposite of silent? Have you heard my ringer? Yeah, what is it? It's Scarface. Oh, my God. No, no, no, no.

It's Al Pacino. That's your ringer or your text or what? Because yesterday it was the clean jam. Don't stop me now. Don't stop me now. Don't stop me now. If you call it, it'll play. Having a good time. And now I'm like, I'm nervous.

Let me call you real quick. I legitimately was like, that was the most unlikely ringtone for Kip. I was like, Queen? I have to think twice now. Is this the version where Al Pacino like swears? And I'm like, oh my God, I had a sweat. I had an attack for a second going, is he dropping a bad word?

I legitimately forget the point I was making about the Toronto Maple Leafs. I'm trying to call you. You're not getting it? Are you going to call him? It's just not, you can't get it off silent. No, I can't get it off silent. Okay, we'll try it off. We'll really take it off the rails later on in the show.

We'll give you another crack at calling me. All right. I don't even know where we're going. Please help me. Talking about getting late early and for other teams in Canada, you know, the Edmonton Oilers are heading into the Heritage Classic in disarray. So are the Flames. The Sens have lost a few in a row

and have lost some D-man and all of a sudden it's panic mode. I was going to say now I remember, don't you feel like momentum in the early part of the season builds positively or negatively? Like if you win a few and things go well, you don't squeeze the sticks quite

as tightly and everyone's a little lighter and it gets easier to have more success and the opposite is true well i i think about the start of this road trip and now think about them leaving dallas to travel today and what a great feeling it is they're joking around they're ripping on each other again marner's wearing reeves helmet in practice yesterday. Life is good. Yeah. Life is good.

They're goofing around. Okay, Sheldon's Kippers Clipper number one is how he thought the game went last night. How he thinks they got the win. I thought it was all in the backs of what I thought was our best first period of the season. In a lot of ways, you know, we score first, so we come out of it with a lead. But also just because of the way we were playing and the flow of the game, we were able to use everyone on forward and on defense. With 5E, you're going to use

everyone. But I just thought we spent a lot of time on their half of the ice and we didn't have to get a whole lot from rd in the first period and then it turned out then you know we need our d too much in the second and third period but i just thought we had enough gas in the tank because of the way we played in the first i agree with that but it was their best period of the season by far i agree i thought in the third period they looked tired for sure you know kind of third i did yeah johnson mike johnson brought that up in the broadcast too he was right like they look like one point last night

he had a three minute shift and by the third period he looked like he was great game by him and that's the stuff they have to clean up. Yeah. No three-minute shifts for you? You don't think that's great? No. I talked about that in Washington, the extended shift, the poaching. It turned out great.

And listen, Willie is such a talented guy. He's playing well. It's scary. The setup on Riley's goal last night. How many guys are capable of doing that? We've seen Marner do stuff like that. It's probably 10 guys in the league. Maybe 10 guys.

But right now, it just seems to be coming awfully easy to him, and that's just him being around the league a long time and then slowing the game down, factoring his skill level, and wow, you got a human highlight reel right now yeah out of him you know i know that the coach liked uh tyler bertuzzi we do have a clip on that but he talked about playing with those guys and kind of finding his stride a little bit with that a little easier to play you know tavarez has had a great start a lot of this feels like willie

driving a line to me he's making it so much easier for two guys who if it's bertuzzi tavarez and i don't know domi or whoever else i don't know it's going like it is like i feel like willie's paving the way for no no 100 and you know i'm i'm probably more critical than anybody on willie nylander but um you have to accept the warts. Yeah. But where he's going right now is we know where it's headed, right? It's going to be very expensive, and they're going to keep him. Yeah.

And it's going to cost you over $10 million. You just can't let a guy like this walk. It's just you can't. But I do feel like there's no incentive to sign him now while things are going perfectly. Like, they're never going to go better than this. You say that as if there might be a window where he really sucks, and then if you're the Leafs, we can get him back down to 9-2 or 9-3,

and it's just not happening, JB. It just feels like you'd be signing him at his career peak. The horse is out of the barn on this one. Yeah, once you show people what you are and can do, I guess that's pretty much it, right? Yeah, and again, there'll be some times he's going to drive me or other Leaf fans a little nuts over cheating or blowing the zone or a line change where he starts gliding at center ice.

And he'll have moments like that. But the good news out of all of this is those type of moments that he's been notorious in his career now are coming a little bit more far and few. Yeah. Right? Yeah. A little harder on some four checks,

a little stronger on the puck, and those great edges now, and the ability to finish. Now it's putting them in that special talent category in the National Hockey League. For sure. So they get her down on the backs of some good willy play. They lost Jake McCabe 10 seconds in. Did you have a look to make any sense of what happened there? hockey league for sure so they get get her down on the back to some good willy play they lost jake

mccabe 10 seconds in did you have a look to make any sense of what happened there kind of got has to be uh and it yeah we did see the little tangle at uh just inside the blue line this was probably something that was bothering him yeah that absolutely blew up on him on that first shift. Yeah, Luke Fox tweeted MRI today. Still awaiting results. Yeah, I put in the update on McCabe clip there, but since that's happened, he talked about it today. Yeah, they're scheduled to have his MRI, like you said.

Says he'll miss some time, just a matter of how much. Lagasin got called up from the Marlies. Minton went back to Kamloops. Minton went back to Kamloops. Minton went back to Kamloops. They listened to our show. They must have. That's what it is. Two weeks from the start of the season, about?

He would have made it through the weekend, but the injury to McCabe opened up the salary cap, so they could call up a defenseman. Yeah, any other injuries, and they're probably going to have to play sh a defenseman yeah any other injuries and they're probably gonna have to play shorthanded because i don't think they're putting mccabe on ltir i don't think they can put mccabe on ltir i think they're maxed out or close to maxed out there so that'll be interesting to keep an eye on if they do have any more injuries but yeah um okay let's go to sheldon on an update on McCabe and get his thoughts. I would say there's concern there, yes.

We won't know the extent of it until we get more information, get him a picture. Get a picture. Such an old hockey guy. Love it. That's such a bad thing to say. You got to get some pictures. Yeah.

Sounds like he did something significant. Ten seconds, you know. You went off, right? he was just like well the concern you know i don't want to like you know accuse anybody of not doing their job here but like you know they have gone on record to say bertuzzi's not a hundred percent he hasn't come out of the lineup yeah so the speculation now is was bertuzzi hurt before the game and did he go out there and make it worse wait what you you think that maybe Bertuzzi was hurt no I'm sorry oh McCabe McCabe okay not Bertuzzi my apologies I was saying that Bertuzzi he'd been banged up early

too banged up earlier they chose not to take him out of the lineup. He's less than 100% as Kyle, but they still played him. Yeah. So my question to you guys is, was McCabe less than 100% yet you still try to put him out there and then you made it worse? You know what I think a lot of this is, Kip, is the lack of flexibility with the salary cap. Like if a guy wants a night off right now you can't call someone else up and just give a guy a night off you don't have any

room no so it's like you're better off playing 17 guys than putting out a guy who could make a situation worse yep right sure um yeah yeah no i agree concern concern not day-to-day or you know something minor like he they're really worried yeah did he did he rip something did he tear something again we'll we'll know more hopefully if they're forthcoming on on the pictures that they need to take yeah but uh this is a blue line. And he has not been playing great. No. Made some bad decisions.

He's searching for his game. Yep. And it's gotten a little better. But. No mistakes last night. A blue line. Well, the mistake was. Oh, playing, yes.

Playing, maybe. Yeah. But. No, I know. And the blue line's been better. Well riley last night was the saving grace he played 26 and a half minutes something like that last night maybe not perfect when you're down to 5d and he's playing like that that's playoff riley well you talk about everybody else looking a little bit tired last night i didn't think he was one of those guys no i just think he has an unbelievable motor and we can listen to keith talk about him and this is just it describes what i'm thinking about so we'll hear

here uh keith on morgan riley i just think he's skating really well he's really moving his feet uh to get him whether it's to break up a play or to uh advance the puck uh to get involved in the play offensively just the way he's moving his feet and skating that's when he's at his best and he's gotten better and better throughout this trip he's which is a really good sign because there's long stretches of last season where we're like morgan just hasn't hit it or there's something not right with Morgan. And then first round of the playoffs, wow. Yeah.

Tampa Bay, wow. That's the Morgan that you knew they signed to seven and a half million bucks. Well, it was crazy because Riley last season scored four goals all season long long which is tough to think about you know he's got two already this year he had 10 the year before you know in 2018 19 he scored 20 times yeah so it's not unreasonable to say that okay they need some offense from the back end riley's going to give you more than four this year could he give you 10 looks like it you

know that that goes a long way to help the leaf so they can get someone else providing some offense through like you know i think there's a lot of discussions about him being a true number one. That's like a stupid conversation that a lot of Leaf fans have had for a long time. I think through seven games in last year's playoffs, he's a true number one guy. Yeah. Right? No.

You still know. The question you need to ask is can he turn his game dominant enough i'm gonna get fined like crazy today with my phone how many ringers do you have the question you have to ask yourself is is morgan's game strong enough to uh carry a team for four rounds and win a stanley cup like a kale mccarr or victor headman the year before can i explain that's what a number one defenseman does sammy it doesn't get you six games in the first round and then lose five in the second yeah let me explain how this gets misframed if you list the top 32 defensemen in the nhl morgan riley is unquestionably in it he is in them but that is 32 number one d-man

and you don't want to have the bottom half you want to have a good number one d-man so the argument is you think he's in the in the bottom half he He's 100% a number one D-man in the NHL. Is he better than Adam Fox, Kale McCarr, Miro Heiskanen, Victor Hedman? You know, you can go through the list. He's probably 17th. You know, like he's somewhere in the middle. So when you get to playoffs, all those teams might, maybe 12 teams have a better number one guy. So you don't have one of the best number one guys,

but you do have a number one guy. So it's't have one of the best number one guys, but you do have a number one guy. So it's a semantics thing. It is entirely a semantics thing. That's well put. Okay. Yeah, for sure. Can he play on your top pair? For sure.

Yeah. Can for a lot of teams. Can he do what he did against Tampa Bay for three rounds and put himself in a position where people go, yeah, he's the best defenseman in the playoffs. Yeah, I think he could do that.

He just needs his really handsomely paid forwards up front to score more than two goals in seven straight games. And it helps when it also helps too when everyone else is slotted in the right position that means a bonafide number two pair yeah and then a top four uh five six that

can contribute your 12 13 minutes and everybody's comfortable with, with where they are. But if Morgan has to be Mr. Everything, because the rest of the defensive core looked like five, six and sevens, then, then Morgan has a, doesn't stand a chance of looking like a true top pairing guy. Yeah.

Yeah. But he's been, I mean, just, he's been unbelievable. Yeah. Great start. Great.

And he looks like the best version of himself. Yeah, for sure. Speaking's been unbelievable. Yeah, great start to the season. He looks like the best version of himself, for sure. Speaking of best versions of themselves, John Tavares, is this the best he's looked to you as a Leaf? I mean, he scored 47 his first year as a Leaf. I think this is as good as I've seen him and Willie move a puck. Yeah, I just, Borny talked about his speed, him looking faster. He does look a lot faster this year to me. He's off to a good start.

They're confident, like they're getting their opportunities. Again, Willie helps a lot. Yeah. He's, I think he's always been fine with his starts, even all those years with the Islanders. A couple of scouts told me, though, because skating doesn't come naturally to him, it's always the back half of the season.

It's always February, March, where it's not as easy in those stretches as it is coming off a great summer. We know he trains like crazy. We know he's always in top physical condition, but back half of the season and then playing every other night, that's when it sometimes

can catch up to a guy like that who doesn't skate like Jack Hughes. But even at the start of the seasons, I don't think I've seen him move as well as he's moved for the start of this year at least. Like even at the start of last year, I feel like we still had the conversations about him. Like how many times in our group chat would we be like,

boy, like Tavares is looking slow tonight, looking slow. It felt like that was all throughout last year. And I feel like that message hasn't been sent yet, which is pretty good. We're three weeks into the season. I sent it last night about Tyler Bertuzzi, who ended up having one of his better games of the year.

Well, maybe his best game of the leaf. Yeah, and the coach said as much. We'd like to hear the coach on Tyler Bertuzzi. Alright, clip three. I thought it was his best game today. I did. I think it's been coming. I've been looking at his game really closely

and there's some things that he's been doing that haven't got a lot of attention and haven't really stood out, I guess, more is what I'm saying. But looking really closely at his game, I've gone through, I looked at every single time he's touched the puck in the six games that he's played, and he's done some very subtle things of keeping players alive and moving the puck to his line mates um that hasn't necessarily been rewarded with points but

i think he's been coming but i thought his skating today removing his feet and being involved in the play was probably the most consistent it's been throughout the game which i i think it sounds great and i totally agree that that's the most engaged he's looked for 60 minutes. Vintage tip for him in front of the net there. But here's the but. Yeah, let me have it. This guy is making $5 million a year. He's on a one-year deal yeah he if he doesn't have the numbers to support a long-term deal he

can't pull in sheldon keith to his next team and say hey listen to all the good little things that i did and i want like you know six times six on a deal yeah he needs goals he needs points he needs to get on the score sheet. Yeah, you're paying him at a premium above Michael Bunting. Bunting went and took four and a half times three, which the Leafs could have afforded. So he got his power play goal last night. But, you know, this guy has scored some,

has had some decent scoring years in Detroit where some points and some goals have come off the power play two points how many how many power play goals can you tell me how many power play goals he had the year he had 30 goals not immediately i can't okay but maybe i don't know maybe 14 16 points on the power play maybe 14 10 14 he's a good net front guy right and if he's on bb2 that means he gets 15 seconds of it or whatever it is and that's that goes back to that whole thing about uh your big boys how long do you want to be out there how long and bertuzzi is going to get tired real quick of going out there for 15 seconds well who cares i mean not that he cares yeah i believe that i believe that power play goals

in 21 22 when he scored 30. Okay. But what can you do about it if you're him? You know, like you may not like it, but you're trying to earn your next deal. Yeah. Well, you spread the love or you tell your big boys every once in a while

to get off the ice a little earlier because we pay this guy a lot of money to go stand in front of the net and that includes on the power play too. I thought they did a good job of that when he got his power play goal yesterday. It was that four minute penalty and they got off pretty quick.

I think they were out there for the second half of the first double minor. The first two minutes. Can you do it on not a double minor though? Can you do it on? Yeah. Well, yeah. How about this show's favorite player Matthew Nyes last night without keeping that puck into the blue?

Yeah, it was nice. It was really nice. Or it was pretty close to going the other way on a maybe a breakaway, too, on the other side. Matthew's put him in a pretty tough spot. He was kind of going the other way, and had a guy on his back, and he chipped it out. How strong are you to do that?

Yeah, he's a young player nice like he still does some things where he'll choose the offensive option over the safer option which i'm fine with but like god he's skating so well he's so good with the puck like he's he is really yeah i think he's the show's favorite player at this point although the goaltender is pretty good too yeah uh we're're going to get into that with Mike McKenna. Of course, he's done a great job over the last few years on our show, especially breaking down the goalies. And probably one of the early guys that said Joseph Wall could easily be the Leafs' best goaltender.

And that was last year when he was carrying a third-string status. So looking forward to Mike McKenna on the show. But still, Matthews gets shot out of a cannon the first two games. And between him and Marner, just not looking as dominant as we've been accustomed to seeing. And just want to get your thoughts on it. For me personally, you know, I look at Mitch Marner and I don't think he's out of third gear yet. I mean, we haven't seen the engine yet.

Yep. So up on sportsnet.ca right now, just came out before the start of our show, I wrote about Matthews and Marner. On the backs of Sheldon Keefe saying that he doesn't think their passing had been clicking. And so I used some, uh, statletes passing data, really cool stuff to, to get a look at their completion percentages and rates and yada, yada, yada. And the point is simply this, that so far this season, they are not completing passes anywhere near their career rate with one another,

which, bizarre. I said it first, by the way. I'm not patting myself on the back, but I told you guys last week that they don't pass. Well, part of it is that I looked into it because I think Matthews is a good passer, and he is. I feel very validated by a lot of this. He's a top 20 guy in terms of passes. Okay.

Hold on. Okay. Highest paid guy in the league. He's a top 20 passer. Yeah, he's also the best scorer on earth. So be both. Be both. McDavid's both.

Yeah, but he's not McDavid. He's not McDavid. Oh, he's not McDavid. No, he's awfully close. You told me a year and a half ago he was better than McDavid. I said a lot of dumb things. You just throw me he's a top 20. I'm sorry.

$313.5 million and a million over McDavid. Top 20? Be better than top 20. Well, your son Mitch Marner is top 15. So if he's incrementally better at assists and he doesn't score. But he's not incrementally. We've watched the games. He's way better. You know that. so if he's incrementally better at assists and he doesn't score he's not incrementally we've watched the games he's way better you know that i know he's way better at creating those goals

like the primary assist plays that kind of come out of nowhere marner creates more he's created 40 uh primary assists last year to matthews 29 but if you look at terms of like completion percentage or like how often their passes get through, Marner is currently 161st in the NHL. Last year, he was 102nd. Matthews is 22nd. So Marner takes a lot more chances.

He makes a lot more risky plays that turn into goals for the Leafs, which is good. You want him to do that stuff. Great players make those sort of plays, but you know, it's, it's not been pretty this year for Mitchitch marner and and matthews either they're both of their numbers are way down in amount of passes successive passes passes per

60 they're worse you're 100 right they have gotten worse this season so i i hypothesized in this article that they were with michael bunting for two years this is a guy that got used to where he is on the ice how how it all works. Sheldon Keefe doesn't want us to look at the left winger, but do you think it's the left winger affecting their success? Yes. How can you not think it? He's got to have some input. Has to have some input for sure.

I mean, you've mentioned earlier, how many have gone through the door with them. Yeah. Richie. Yeah. Thornton. Hyman. Say it for a minute.

Malkin. Malkin. Malkin. Love that reference. McKay have ever get anything? Some shifts. Obviously, Willie's there sometimes. But, yeah.

Kasha. To me, they're waiting for Bunting. Or sorry, for Bertuzzi. Yeah. To figure it out. Like, that's Bertuzzi's spot. So, Sammy got all excited because Matthew's got an assist last night off of the Marner goal. Yeah.

Great setup. Right? Yeah. It fell off his stick and landed. Do you want to hear some shocking passing stats? Yes. I really would like to see that part of Matthews' game go to another level, the more the setup stuff.

He's 14th in the NHL in passes completed this year. Who is? Matthews? Marner's 11th. Okay. That's over the course of the game. Yes. If you take out power play,

I'd like to see where that number lasts. I have it. What is it? I didn't put it in the article. Okay. I do have it. It must not be very good if it's not in the article. I got it right here.

Even strength, pass is completed. Marner is 15th of the 111. Matthews, 15th of the of 111 it even strength in 23 24 that's according to statletes okay so he brings out the bible good homework yeah good i was digging today all right i love it um stats are great. Useful. Some are useless. That's our analytics. That's completed passes. That's completed pass. That's not like an expected pass completed.

That is a completed pass. 11. Listen, I don't know the guy that's collecting that. Oh, my God. Could be a guy that works at, you know, pumps gas. It's all computers now. Oh, it is? Okay.

All right. We should trust. Okay, but we are all in agreement that it has not looked anywhere near it has in the past. Nope. No, they definitely are struggling. And I use that to say that I think there's more there for this Leafs offense right now.

Like, those two guys are number one and number two in the NHL. I remember what I was going to say. They're number one and number two in the NHL in time what i was going to say they're number one number two in the nhl and time on ice and that could be why it looks sloppy too they're playing 23 minutes a night which hasn't been good i wanted to give you these two little tidbits so i'm sorry those those numbers were you're saying from last year that's this season so far this season so far okay so how many primary assists do you think Matthews and Marner had on each other's goals last season? Matthews scored 40 times.

Marner had, I don't remember, 28 maybe. I don't remember. It was 30-something. I don't know. I assume that primary assist off of Marner to Matthews is much higher than the other way around. It was in 21-22. Marner assisted on 12 of matthews goals primary assist

and it was eight from matthews to marner last year it was six total both ways six for one six for the other well that's the you go from 60 to 40 goals well that you're that's it half as many uh primary assist from mitch marner to austin matthews last year so i don't know maybe there's something in this data that says maybe we should give them some run with split up i don't know like it's it's not looking great so far this year this year marner has primary assists on four of matthew's goals matthews has one primary assist on marner's goals so you know say read that however you want speaking of split up we should hit a break okay um stats stats stats 35 minutes on the Leafs and no discussion still on Joseph Wall. That's until we touch base with our next guest, Mike McKenna.

Retired guy from the NHL, AHL, ECHL. Man, the guy has done it all, but he has got the beat on Joseph Wall, and we're going to dig right into that after this commercial break. More real Kipper and Bourne coming up. Your daily dose of everything NFL. It's the Fan Checkdown with Matt Marchese and Donovan Bennett. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

All right, as promised, an in-depth conversation on Joseph Wall. Guys, Wall, Wall, Wall. Wallercoaster. I mean, that's when you know you're getting good is when make people learn your pronunciation by playing announcers going okay we got to get this right right i need an official word on it uh one guy that knows this guy well uh is our next guest mike mckenna of course we know him uh the last few years on our show. Does a terrific job. Look at those jerseys. For those of you watching on our many platforms on Sportsnet, he's played on every team in any league on the planet.

Yeah, that's how good he's been. And one guy who I got to give full credit, told us last year, I don't know at what point maybe even last november december the best goalie in the toronto maple leaf organization is joseph wall confirm or deny mr mckenna yeah i'm confirming this and thanks for the introduction i will say though i never went over to europe that's the only thing missing on my resume if you got a league anywhere else, I was probably in it. But yeah, and then listen, full disclosure here, everybody. I had insider knowledge on this. Why? Well, I used to coach Joseph Wall. While I was an active player, I ran goalie camps in the St.

Louis area with a former Leaf prospect named Bruce Racine, who was integral into Joseph's career so far. And I saw this from a young age. I saw him before he went to the U.S. development program. I saw him excel at BC. I am 0% surprised knowing Wohl as a player, as a person that this success is finally coming. But then again, it is just a couple of games this year. So you never know what can happen. But guys, that structure that you see him play with, it's no fluke that right now he's the hottest goalie in the NHL.

Yeah, and I mean, he's a big guy, and the body thing actually came up in a quote that he gave about having, someone asked him about working on his flexibility, and he's like, I have kind of a goofy body. I actually work on my muscles to contain myself from being too flexible almost. What can you tell us about that? That's a strange thing I've never really heard a goalie make reference to before. Well, I think what Joseph's getting at, and you'd probably have to go deeper with him

to understand it, but having a little bit similar mindset to this is that as a goalie, you should not end up in the splits if you can help it. Okay. I've got a seven-year-old daughter who thinks that she can just do the splits as a goalie and she's going to be like a world beater. Right. And at some point, I'm going to have to tell her, no, you actually have to move. You have to get your chest behind the puck because that's the greatest blocking surface

you have. And so to me, when I distill down what Joseph said, it's that he doesn't want to need to be flexible unless he absolutely has to be like the save he made on Jason Robertson against the Stars coming across the crease when he went left to right. He's in a butterfly. Robertson keeps carrying and then Wall has to go desperation into a really flexible split. What he's saying is I need to keep my knees close together. I need to skate hard to get square for the shot first and then I can control it. That's my best guess at what he's saying.

We heard Max Domi actually compare him to Carey Price, and he says, I'm not a goalie coach, but clearly the ability to stay calm, and we've seen it in a short sample here. And just the thought that people that have watched this blue line over the last few years, they're anything but calm back there. So how,

how is he able to do it? This is exactly what the Leafs need. I mean, they need a goalie that can handle adversity because at some point during this season, I mean, I expect Wall to be the guy. I said it last year. I said it during the offseason that I thought Samsonov was making a big mistake going to arbitration, getting a one-year deal.

He should have been going for multi-year because I knew in my eyes, I believed wholeheartedly Wall would take this crease over and Samsonov would be in trouble come next contract. I said as much this summer. But for Wohl, for him to be able to handle the Toronto market, to be able to handle a defense in front of him that is porous at times, although albeit improved, it's just mindset. This is a very mature goaltender for his age. He's 25 years old, but if you meet him, you'd think he's been playing for 10 years pro. He's always had that demeanor. He's a studious type of person. And when you approach the game from an analytical standpoint and from a standpoint that's not very emotional, it lends yourself to succeeding in a pressure cooker like Toronto. And I think that that mental edge is something that Wohl has consciously trained himself on. He ditched all social media.

He stayed focused on what the task at hand is. I'm not surprised by that at all. He's always been able to set things aside and keep working. And it even shows his resilience, guys. Like he came out and didn't have a great first year in the American League out of college after signing early. And then he got hurt for two years. You know, he hardly got to play a ton because he was hurt. Last year, you finally saw the real Joseph Wall, and now you're seeing it at the NHL level. Well, I am curious about that. The mental part of it, you know,

one thing that I'm reading about Wall a little bit, the guy went to the Alps by himself this year and just kind of backpacked around, and someone asked him about trying to get bigger and put on size, and he's like, I don't really want to do that or need to do that, and so he didn't. You know, he basically said he worked on his ankles and his shoulders. If I recall what he was saying, he seems like a bit of a unique character, even among goaltenders.

These guys are telling me that all goalies are weird. He seems a bit weird in a different way. Well, I don't think he's weird at all. I think he's a normal human being. Yeah, you're one of them. Yeah. I mean, how many friends do you have that went to college that took a semester abroad and they got a chance to go see the Alps? Well, we don't do that as hockey players.

Right. You know, we don't get a chance. Listen, man, they trained Dougie Hamilton because he went to museums. This is not common in our sport. Oh, this guy's got outside injury. He can read a book. We better get rid of this guy. Oh, man.

Oh, dude, like, I think about Joseph like that. He said he worked on his ankles and shoulders. Guess why? Those would have been his trouble areas, right? That's where the injuries have been. He has taken care of what held him back previously. Getting bigger and stronger as a goalie, get out of here. Go look at Ryan Miller and the success and the durability he had,

and he could probably slip through a window with his crack three inches open, right? Like, this is a thin guy. As a goalie, your job is to find the appropriate medium for you to, one, stay healthy and two, stay explosive. And if you watch Joseph Wall, there's no lack of explosiveness when necessary. So there's no need to gain size or strength. He's got what he needs. He just needs to stay healthy. So I like that approach of his.

We're talking to Mike McKenna, hockey analyst and the Joe wool emergence with the Toronto Maple Leafs. So where are the pitfalls here? Mike, you know, you mentioned the injuries that he's come across the last few years. This guy has never played 40 games in a, in a, in a season. Where is it the Leafs need to be careful here? I think Sheldon Keefe has to be conscious of, should Wohl really take over this crease? Which, given Samsonow's performance so far this season, I'd want Wohl to play every game if I'm Keefe. You have to stay focused as a coach to realize that there needs to be an appropriate distribution

of games here. And I wouldn't run Wall more than two out of three, even if he was the guy, right? I think you're looking 40 to 50 games. Let him continue to grow because there are going to be rough patches. There always is. And I think the key, though, is that you don't just sit him down after that. You don't say, oh, we're just going to ride the hot hand. If he's truly the better goaltender, you need to play him at a regular rate. So we'll see how that progresses and plays out. But for me with Wohl,

it's trying to just stay in the moment, not let it get too big. Every game is, it's a simple cliche stuff. It's one at a time, but you do look at how his teams are going to do. Teams are going to learn how he plays. And as teams learn how a goalie plays, there's typically a sophomore slump to a certain degree. And I think at some point this year, they'll clue into his tendencies. And then it's up to him to go back to the chessboard and recalibrate and find out where he can improve and streamline his game to match what the other teams have done facing him. So now you're the GM of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Congratulations. Your team is humming along. Wall is the number one guy. It's getting towards trade deadline and Samsonov is struggling a little bit. You know, how do you feel about trusting this team that considers itself a cup contender to a guy who hasn't played you know as kip mentioned 40 games or deep in the playoffs is a rookie in the league you know do you feel like you can hand this over to him sure he's ready for the moment even look at last year's performance i know is the last game or two probably wasn't the

grace greatest ever for wall in the stan Cup playoffs, but his play leading up to it and early to me was very good. And it's a precursor. I think about my own career. It took me two or three seasons worth of postseason hockey to really be able to perform in the second season. I mean, guys, I was probably 33 before I ever had a good playoff run. Like, 33. He's 25. Now, I'm not telling Leafs fans they need to wait until Joseph Wohl is 33. That'd be bad. That would not be good. I don't think he would get that leash here.

But I believe as long as the team gives him a good performance in front, he'll be fine with it. I have no problem with that. Golden Knights just won with Aiden Hill, who's a good NHL goalie. The Canes won with Cam Ward in 2005. Anthony Emi won a cup. I think he will be just fine in the postseason. And I do think if they manage to keep Martin Jones around as a third goalie, at least you've got some backup ammunition

that has experience playing on that big stage. We know Samsonov will get the start Saturday night in Nashville. Mike, just going back last Saturday, the decision by Sheldon Keefe to pull Samsonov after three goals on four shots, and the score was only 3-1, which is a lot different than 4-1 when you pull a goalie. Just talk about that and maybe what you saw out of Samsonov and where is he leaking oil here in his

game well here's here's the first thing I I feel for Samsonov I went one for four in my only appearance with the Milwaukee Admirals in the American League once if you look at my hockey database it my numbers with that team look like a credit card. I think my goals against is about 16 for that game. So it's a bad feeling. It's three goals in succession. And what I didn't like about it was Samsonov putting his hands up in the air like, come on, guys. Like it's the team in front of him fault.

And I look at the last goal that was scored by Nikita Kucherov. It's a one-timer basically off the faceoff. It's a pass from the middle of the ice. Kucherov's not even at the dot. He's just at the top of the circle. And when Kucherov releases that one-timer, Samsonov is literally not in the net. He's literally not covering an inch of the net. You can go to my Twitter feed, at MikeMcKenna56. I've got a diagram with triangulation and circles and arrows, and it's all on there. He simply refuses to stay close to home. And if anybody is telling Samsonov, if the goalie staff in the release is telling Samsonov to play in the white ice, they should be fired. And if Samsonov is hearing the advice that he needs to stay in the blue paint and stop being so aggressive, but he's either ignoring it or unable to fix it, both of those are a big problem because it needs

to. He's reaching for pucks. He's in the white ice. He's chasing. He's doing what he did with Washington before that organization gave up on him, and he was a first-round draft pick. And these are pointed words, but this is reality because I'm jealous of Samsonov. I didn't have half of that athletic ability that he has, half of that pedigree. Sixth-round pick, didn't sign, but I could think the game. And that's right now where he has to take a step back and approach this game with purpose and with intelligence and with reasoning. Because if he looks at the images I would have on my Twitter feed right now and he says, yeah, I'm giving myself a chance, it's just not reality. So to me, that's it. He's got to rein his game in. Stop trying so hard.

Stop forcing the issue. Stop being so aggressive. And look at his goalie partner. Let the game come to him get his knees together get his eyes on the puck and most of all don't throw your hands in the air when you just allowed three goals in the first 10 minutes you can't do that and have the respect to your teammates samson gets that chance to reach and chase a w saturday night hey mike awesome stuff man really i love having you on the show you know that uh great uh great analysis on both the goalies of the toronto maple leafs yeah we'll catch up soon again mike mckenna you got it appreciate it guys just doing my best terrific terrific stuff uh your quick thoughts before we

go to break on two out of three for joseph wall you okay moving forward with that or still too much too much too early well it's not that it's too much too early it's just you talked about like injuries and wanting him at his best like do you maybe want to a little little less than that might be the way to go just while you see what you can do you know do you think it's fair to two out of three uh my just my again my first thought is that this guy hasn has never played over 40 starts in a hockey season. Yeah. And now you got to be careful.

But God, he's been so good. Like how good was he last night? He was so calm and collected. It looked easy. Mike talked about the save on Robertson. Yeah. Going all the way across the net on a pretty gross turnover that we're not talking about because the save gets made.

Lively legs, doesn't he have? He does. Splits come real easy. Okay, we're going to take another quick break and then we go national. That's when we throw it right in the ditch with Doug McClain. Oh, yeah. You're not going to want to miss this.

I hope he doesn't try to sell 20 books on our show. Ah, let him sell. All right. Back after the break. Stick around.