Real Kyper & Bourne - Leafs Land the No. 1 Pick!

Episode Date: May 6, 2026

The Toronto Maple Leafs have won the Draft Lottery, securing the first overall pick in the 2026 NHL Draft. Justin Bourne and Sam McKee react to last night's development and discuss what it means for the team's offseason direction. Nick Kypreos joins the show (13:17) to share his take on what the Leafs should do with the pick, whether it changes the plan for Auston Matthews or Craig Berube, and whether Mats Sundin will push for countryman Ivar Stenberg at the top of the draft. Later, former NHL scout Jason Bukala stops by (28:54) to discuss what the lottery win means for John Chayka, the trade value of the No. 1 pick, and why he has Stenberg ahead of Gavin McKenna on his big board. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

Welcome in to a very special edition, a top-rated edition of the Real Kipper and Bourne Show. I am joined today. We're all in the background. We've got technical directors, Jake Schultz and Derek Brandeo. We are live on Sportsnet 360, Sportsnet 590, the fan in Toronto. And streaming always on Sportsnet Plus. If you miss our show live, you can always get it on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube. Going to be joined in a little bit.

We're going to try to get a hold of my guy, Nick Kiprios. Kipper is not in the building, but we're going to try to get him on here and have a chat about some very big news in Leafs Nation. But before we get to that, first, a prepared statement for Leafs Nation from Sam McKee. I brought back the book, Forney. The Manifesto book. Finally. Is back.

A good chapter. Oh, so exciting. Okay. Leaves Nation. It's been a long, cold, winter. Your escape from every day became a bigger grind than your every day. Turning on the TV to watch our boys in blue became something none of us look forward to. You think this is bad? Wait until you give the Bruins the sixth overall pick.

Fans of other teams would exclaim with glee, now all those people can say is rigged. Pathetic. I, like many of you watching that 12 ball come up last night, 12 in honor of Paul Bissonette, our fallen leaf fan number in Phoenix. I had a feeling of hope and joy that we haven't felt in a long, long time. A feeling that can only be compared to the first bite of a delicious junior bacon cheeseburger from our beloved Wendy's. Leaf fans, put on your tank tops, flip off other fan bases, and light up a dart to smoke that Bruins pack

and let the head scars of a season from hell heal. Matt Sundin is smiling. We don't need chat GPT to tell us this, baby. Leaves Nation, we are back. Yeah. Well done. I didn't even think there is a chance you were going to watch that last night. I thought you were disconnected.

No. So I arrived last night at York Canlan to play hockey. And I said it was going to be a marginal game of hockey. We lost one nothing. It was horrendous. What a grind. The worst game ever played. So I thought to myself, I have a little bit of time.

And I might as well as put this on. So I sat in the stands alone at York Canlan, Rink 2. Very fitting. And just watched it on my phone. And like I said in my statement, you know, it's flip-flopping. You see the point where it's Seattle potentially. And you're like, you're like, not the spot that the Leafs fought so hard to get out of.

Not that spot. Any spot, but that spot. Don't let that one come up. And I don't know how to describe the feeling of seeing that 12th. Yeah. I just, I don't know. I don't, like, it's a different. for me. It's a different feeling

we're watching it here. Like it's clearly not close to a on the ice moment. It's a different thing. It's a different feeling. But it was pure joy and elation. Yeah. And I was there. I was there. That's awesome. Look at that screen of mats right there.

I know all on my team is all hockey guys. Some leave fans, some not leave fans. And I was the second guy there. Yeah. And just to see the boys walk into the road. room and have the Leaf fans come in and we're just smiles all around. I can't imagine a more insane three days for a hockey.

What a tone changer. Just what a bounce. What a bounce? What else can you say other than what a bounce? It's, you know, you come fresh off that press conference and obviously there's an adversarial moment. You know, people are, Chica was named GM a min. some confusion and resistance and it was a lot of noise around it.

People weren't sure about the direction of the team. And then this happens. And I don't know what you, but like my Twitter feed is just people at, Chica's the man. I got to tell you, like, I don't know what piled me,

like Chica piled. Like that's like a pill or whatever it is. I'm old. People in my group, I'm Chica Pilled. I love chica. Like it's just, it's amazing.

What happens? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. I'm bumbling around here. But like, it's just I can't imagine how good he feels. Yeah. No, I know.

And he had a great celebration too. Matt's handled it, you know, very diplomatically, but also it was thrilled. I think the biggest thing now is what this changes. And if you go online right now on sportsnet.com, I wrote an article on that very topic, how drafting first overall changes the Maple Leafs Outlook. And in it, I highlighted like seven, eight points. about what changes, it's everything. Yes.

Like, of course this doesn't fix everything, but now you just have such clarity of direction. That's the thing. Obviously, there's going to be a ton of detractors to this. Yeah. There's tons of fanbys. What do you mean like detractors, like people who don't think? No, no, but like who want to dunk on the leaves of other fan bases.

And their number one thing is like, oh, you still suck. You know, you're not going to make. This is not a savior. What this is is a lifeline. It's a, it's a flotation device. It's some water wings so that you can just be like not drowning. They have a full draft class this year. And next.

And next. And I mean, it's a huge job to go in there and nail these picks. But one of the big things when you're looking after this deadline, when we were totally overwhelmed by it and the Trillivin ending and how it was feeling and all of that stuff, I just think Leaf fans are waking up today, realizing that regardless of what direction you're going to go in here, the options are there. You have different ways you can go. The rebuild definitely on the table

with a potential taking Gavin McKenna first overall, maybe building around him if you have to trade Matthews or have to trade Neeland or whatever that is. Or the ritual where maybe McKenna's playing on Matthews wing next year. Yeah. Right? Like it's just the way that changed things,

it's unquantifiable for an entire group of fans that I can't be happier for. Well, it is. It's great. you know, considering how much, how often it can be a challenge when your team is not successful. And I think the hardest part is sitting there, they often say in like the sports media world anyway, that you can sell two things, winning and hope. Yep.

And there was kind of neither heading into the summer. Correct. You know, where it was like, I just don't see how they get out of this. And I'm sitting here with Kipper every day. And I don't know if we'll get them or not. But I'm saying, you know, yes, they can be okay next year. Yes, there are steps to do it. what are the steps?

And it's like, well, they didn't have a lot of tools of their disposal. Correct. And so to now, you know, you look at some of the games, oh, you know, I'm hearing that, like, Adam Fox could be, you know, I know you're not your favorite choice. I'm saying, like, you know, he might be a guy who wants to change a scenery. And it's like, okay, well, you have some assets to make that happen all of a sudden with two full draft classes. And they haven't been in this spot before.

The clarity of direction is just there's no doubt that they need to win hockey. When game one starts next year, you're playing to win. there's nothing to play for but winning again, and that is really encouraging, because your picks the next couple years aren't yours? Yeah. So it's winning time. The part of that where, you know,

I can, I don't even really want to do this for it today because it's a positive day, and I guess this isn't even really a negative take, but the flip side of that for me is that if you were to trade Matthews, if he did want out, C. C.J. said yesterday that there's a potential of him maybe not starting the year or the year. He demands a trade whatever.

Like if you get the package that people have talked about, like Utah or L.A. or whatever, that's going to include first round picks, right? So I just, I find it to be this white light of just, you have this asset, you have this first, that you can build around. And even if you do have to trade Matthews, you're still in a fine position where with whatever you get back from him,

plus potentially Gavin McKenna and his promise, plus maybe you have Nielander still, like it's just, there's promise. But Nyes, Cowan and McKenna, and by the way, let's talk about that more in a sec here, but like under 23. The McKenna thing is, you know, we're talking about it like it's McKenna. Yeah. I know that that is not the case necessarily. We're going to talk to Jason Buchala.

He's going to join us at 430 today and kind of give us an update and where he sees things at. And you like me talk to people. We read things online. You see people saying, you know, I hear that the Leafs like Chase Reed quite a bit. Yeah. You know, and I don't think they would take him at the number one. spot, but he is someone that they like. Yeah.

You know, I know Bookes likes Stenberg. So I went on with Bunkus today. We talked about this a little bit, and I'll say it here too. This is total coward stuff, but I just find that if you're John Chica and your first ever draft with the Toronto Maple Leafs, where on a hope and a prayer, you are given the first overall pick with a guy that has been

floating around consensus for two years, that he was going to be the first pick in this draft, I just think the risk of not taking him is so much higher than just taking him. You trade out a one to four to get Reed? Well, not even that. Like, say they don't trade out of it, and they just take Stenberg because they think he's a better player.

And now, Bukes has been talking about that. We can get into that a little bit with him. But like, you take him, Gavin McKenna goes to the sharks, and him and Macklin-Cellibrini lighted up for 15 years and they're on-team canadas and they win cops and the Leafs took Stenberg. I just find that the way it would be talked about

if you just take McKenna will be so much less pressure filled and listen that's not the way to build a team fear isn't a good strategy but the perception of it to me it's a huge risk to pass on McKenna to me that what you're talking about is a valid tiebreaker if it's even close

between these kids you want the Canadian kid who's been a part of it and you know has been exceptional status and you know he's a pure talent yes for sure however you want the best player. At the end of their career is the guy who has the best career is the guy you wanted to have on your team and the name and the buildup and all that is not necessarily who it's going

to be. So you got to get it right. And then I think there is real pressure. The one thing we know about Chica, like he's traded up, he's traded down at the deadline. I'm sorry. There's can't trade out of one. First draft ever like and you know, you got people. Three weeks on the job, he would do it. You're talking, you know, you got the press conference from hell where people are questioning your integrity and you're just like this pass on McKenna. Like you got to, listen, he came in here. Seems like a confident guy. I've heard him talk.

I don't know. Still kind of trying to gauge him, right? But it doesn't feel like he's going to outwardly give you a lot when you're hearing him talk. But even for him, even for a risky guy, a guy that's willing to gamble. That is a monster gamble, Borny. It is. You know, I just look at, I guess what's exciting is you look at teams that have had

success in the past with older cores then being supplemented by a young core beneath it. I think of the San Jose sharks. You know, they had Thornton and Marlowe and those guys and they were helped by, you know, Kutcher and Pavelski and all these other guys that came up and joined them later.

You know, you've seen it in the past. Even Dallas Stars for years have had sort of the Ben Sagan thing going and then filled in behind them and they win a whole bunch. That can be the Leafs now. You know, where it's, okay, Nize is this third, fourth year in the league and Cowan's in his second year and McKenna is a 60 point rookie or whatever that comes out of nowhere.

This is my exact point. You're actually sort of seeing life, a potential life of what it would look like if Austin Matthews decides to leave, which seems like what we've been talking about. This is something for me that I think changes because Matthews can see this too. And now you're less likely to want to go. The idea is, are we going to be good? This helps answer that question with a yes. It's interesting.

It's interesting. It comes down to if he really loves the market and wants to be here regardless or if he wants to leave. There's a world where he just wants to leave. He's given his time here, even if they have a good team in the future. But if he sees they have a good team, he loves it here he wants to stay here,

then you've got to do it. The option is what I love. There's usually like a team or two who's supposed to be the favorite. Oh, here we go. We'll get more into it after. We are joined now by Nick Kiprios of the Real Kipper and Born Show. he's working at Wendy's and took a step out from taking orders to join us today. Kip, what's up?

Actually, it's Applebee's right now. I got my scheduled family quality time. Nice. It's a little interrupted, but with good reason, you know, I knew you guys could hold the fort there without me for a few days. But, you know, I'll throw my two cents in on the big story as well. Yeah, well, so I guess where were you? How did you see it happen? And what were your first thoughts?

At home, like everyone else, my first thoughts were it was fixed. After that, after that, you know, J.B, we spent quality time together talking about what it could mean to get a top five pick and how Lee fans can kind of hold on. to that and at least have a new fresh face to look forward to. And then it turned into the first pick overall. So I'm like everyone else when you watch that number 12 come up the shoot.

You know, it changes a lot. It changes a lot for I'm sure John Chichen now and Mats and the whole crew there and whatever John went in and sold his story on what the Leafs could look like. I think

has changed dramatically. And it's up to him now to make what of it, what he can in terms of what this does to the process and how quickly it can turn into assets, real assets moving forward. So what should they do with it, Kep?

Well, yeah, I think the options are there. To me, drafting first overall isn't a slam dunk. No. It could turn into sliding down to two or three and building some assets around.

that significant assets. Good quality players. If you move down two or three spots, it can turn into a top six forward. It could turn into a top six defensemen. It could turn into another first rounder or second rounder.

I think it's wide open right now for John and Matt's to start exploring. Can you imagine if Chica here three weeks into his job got the number one overall pick and traded out of that spot? It's like the public perception. do you think they have to consider that because people want McKenna?

Yeah, I think for sure. But, you know, the other thing, too, is, let's be honest here, what are the short and long-term plans around Austin Matthews and Willie Neelander? If there's some noise behind Austin Matthews wanting to leave and you do explore it as early as this summer, then it's a lot more important to get maybe that first overall pick around McKenna and a star quality player that can follow in the footsteps of an Austin. in Matthews as being the look of the franchise.

Does he stay? Does he try to build around winning a cup in the next year or two? That's a possibility. But, you know, McKenna's not going to be at the top of his career in 18 months. Or if he is, it'll be quite shocking, almost as shocking as a Sellebrini situation where, you know, he's a teenager scoring 100 points. I don't think anybody can count. on that. Therefore, again, if Austin's in the plans here and you think you could still win a Stanley Cup in the next few years with him, then you've got to also explore the options of supporting him,

not necessarily the first pick overall. Yeah, I just, for the first time, and I just said it before you got on Kip, when they won that draft lottery last night, one of the first thoughts after, you know, swearing into a camera and running around and high-fiving all my buddies at hockey was, I actually thought about life after Matthews for the first time in terms of, you know, we're already hearing the reports of him potentially wanting out, who knows what's what. But like that's been around enough.

We've talked about it a million times. Like, does this open them up more to potentially looking at that, you know, the King's Package or the Utah Pat or whatever it is if they have to go that route? Yes. And to be honest with you, it's the safest route. Yeah.

is to turn this first pick into multiple players, prospects that are within the scope of a McKenna or a Chase Reed or whoever you pick in the top three. And you need multiple guys at age 18, 19, and 20 moving forward and less on the focus of a 31, a 32 or 33-year-old. for me anyways. I mean, again, it could be a different dynamic here with what was promised from John Chica in those interviews that we're going to win and build around Willie Neelander and Austin. But for me, I'd sooner try focusing on what maybe the next two or three years could be, much like the Montreal Canadians built. Because they're built, you know, and Sammy, I know you don't want to hear this as a leave fan, but Montreal's built for the next seven to ten years. years. And the Leafs, if you continue to build around Willie and Austin, you're trying to build for the next two years.

Yeah. I'd like to say for a route, man. I'd look for longevity, sustainability around this pick. So that to you then means not only are you not hanging on to see if Matthews asks out, you are almost encouraging the idea that it would be the best thing? I don't know about encouraging because he has two years left. He has a no move clause. But he's, you know, everybody's talking about the Leafs or John selling Austin on why you want to stay. If I'm in that office, I'm going to talk to Austin. And you got to sell me on if you want to stay and why you want to stay.

And then we get into your vision on how we can build around you. still after 10 years. And if you don't like that answer, then you start shopping. That's fascinating. So I guess one of the things that, you know, we and I have talked about with this, the direction they're headed was about the coach. And we've talked about how they're not sure next year what they're doing.

Should they go into the season with Baroobee before they even know that they're trying to win? But we know now they're trying to win. Does that change how you feel about the coach's status at all? Yeah, no, no. for the Leafs now, times on their side. And I don't mean that it doesn't mean that they're trying to still win a Stanley Cup in 12 months or 18 months from now. But it does mean that I don't have to now go find a coach that can win me the Stanley Cup now. I can still go get them at Christmas.

I can get them at the end of the year. I can get them by the time next season comes around. There's nothing in my mind. I don't know about you guys that says that because they got the first pick overall, they're now in a position to try to win the Stanley Cup. So you have the year. And if you show that there's vast improvement, then you can start thinking about your next coach a lot more.

But Craig Barovie buys them time. And that's not a bad thing. That's interesting. I mean, you hear that. So the Stenberg thing and the connection to mats, do you think there's some? some influence there in terms of potentially just wanting to take him one overall? You know, I'll stand by what I said earlier, you know, when the news came out about Matt's.

I don't think Matt's is ready to put any hammer down on anything, including a Swedish prospect. The Matt's I know will not walk into that room and say, hey, you know, I had a couple of lunches with him. I know the family. Take this kid. I don't think he'll be in that position. He can certainly do some research. He can talk to a lot of people. He can find out about his credibility off the ice and the community and all of that stuff counts.

Don't make any mistake about that. But as far as a pure talent is concerned, I'd still leave that up to Mark Leach and the pro scouting staff to ultimately decide. what player and their talents is best for the hockey club. All right, Kip. Well, hey, I think you got people waiting in the drive-thru window for their order. I feel like I should let you go. A couple baconators on deck there or what? All right.

Sammy, I got to be honest with you, but I was worried about you this week. Yeah, that's fair. It's fair. It was. That's fair. I mean, hopefully McKenna's decent, so. I hope not a lot of kids are listening to me right now, but I was so happy to see you spark up that dart.

It's so true, eh? You know things are good. Oh, that dart hit good, boys. That was a good dart. All right, thanks for joining us, Kip. All right, we'll see you guys soon. Sounds good, looking forward to it. All right, that was our own Nick Kiprios.

Hearts unknown. Yeah, who knows where the hell he is. Hold on. Okay. How do you feel about, you know, the idea that Kip, rather than seeing it as a sort of a fresh start, Matthews, you know, stay now. He sees it more of a, okay, this is scaffolding for the big pitcher.

I agree with Kepp. You do. I do. And like, I'd be lying to you if I sat here and it wasn't my first thought. Like, I know they want to win now and I know all that. But like, I just hope that Chica is talking about. How bad do you guys think Austin Matthews is going to be in two years? Three years.

He's generational as a goal score. You think it's over? you think he's Elias Patterson? Say it. Say it. I don't think he's Elias Patterson. But the last two years have been red flags. They are big screaming red flags.

And you can talk about deployment. And I know there's a lot of Lee fans that will talk about under Craig Barubei. I'm not sitting up here on the day the least one of the first, the draft lottery. They got to trade Matthew. I don't want to be that guy. But you can see a direction. I just, I can see for the first time if he potentially wants to leave or they want to trade or whatever. I can see them not being totally screwed for 10 years.

Well, I agree with that, but I also think you could, these guys who are this elite, they stay good for a long time. Yeah. And I just don't think there's any, I think you can have a good Austin Matthews for a lot of years ahead. Yeah. And that can include Gavin McKenna. So for me, this is.

If Matthews wants to commit long term here and he wants to be a leaf for life, do it. Clearly do it. 100% I am on board with having him here, almost like the Vladimir Guerrero Jr. thing where it's just like, just sign them, pay them. Yeah. The ups and downs.

Boy, they are down right now. Holy. Full road trip, no extra base hits for Vladdy. But I just, if he's going to be part of the situation and he wants to be here and he shows out next year and he's back to a 40-50 goal pace, I'm fine with it. But if there's some, if there's just, if we're doing two years of, well, I don't know what the future is or like we have to talk about it every day. I don't want to do that as a fan. And I think a lot of fans don't. So if that's where we're going to get anyway, you can see the vision.

for what the future might look like. And if he wants to stay, great. Keep him. He's generational. The way that you're seeing is that you feel better either way. Yes. I'm extremely hopeful for the first time in a long time. And God, other fan bases are sick.

Sick. Yeah. I really enjoyed some of the, like, Pete Blackburn's clips were really wonderful. Him and DJ do such a good job. That funny stuff. I enjoyed all the live reaction videos from other people covering the Leafs out there.

It was so good. Yeah, the Vancouver Bar. was that was tough. I legitimately, and I'm not just saying this, I do feel bad for Canucks fans. Like they've never drafted one. They paid their damn dues this year, man. They paid them.

I guess blood and flesh and misery. You just got to try to win every night, Borny. That's it. It's an ethical tank. Keep pin and play Willie 25 a night. 25 a night. Tough bounce. Do you want to hear a little bit from the team at all?

Yeah. Should we break before we get to Outs? No, I think we'll play this one quick before we get to Bookes. Bookes, we can wait a couple of days. seconds here. Just on Chica, his drafting strategy. I left the question here from Kevin McGrane. It's a good one.

It's the exchange. I just think it's relevant to the conversation. We're going to get into it with Bookes. So let's play John Chica clip two, please, Derek. Hey, guys. Congratulations. John, this one's for you. And it's not necessarily about first overall.

Just curious about your drafting strategy. Are you the best player available, the guy with Hockey Sense? Do you like to trade up? Do you like to trade down? Like, the draft strikes me as a fun day. or fun two days. Yeah. How do you approach each pick?

Yeah, no, good question. I think, you know, different situations probably call for different things. Obviously, we all want the smartest, fastest, most skilled, best score you can get. But when you train things off, certainly I prefer, you know, value hockey sense and competitiveness. And, you know, obviously when you're in this high of the draft, skill level is going to be strong across the board and always have. valued. So in terms of trading up and trading down, my history has been I've done both. And I think it just matters, you know, how things fall and how you value the players and what the opportunities are and what teams are willing to offer candidly. So I'm always open to

everything. But I do think when you get a chance to draft first overall, it's obviously a special opportunity too. See, he's got a great answer. He's so he, you get it. Yeah. You get how you could sit in a boardroom with guys and be like, that guy has got to be. He's got a very good. This guy can talk. Like, he gets it. So I don't know. What do you think from that? I'll tell you what.

Not great from McKenna. Competitiveness is the first word he mentioned. And the only thing I know about McKenna is everyone goes, hyper talented kid. Sometimes he needs it. Except when he scores a goal and he does the Carter-Regger strut. Sometimes he needs a little poke in the butt. I mean, he punched a guy in a bar.

Defending his mom's honor, that seems pretty competitive. I got to tell you. Yeah. That's a pro to me. Of course. You're crazy? You know, like, the leaves haven't had a star who would punch someone the beak in a decade.

I know it's not his all nice thing, but the fact that he can get annoyed enough to do it kind of makes me happy. Yes. But I don't know the competitiveness is typically listed as one of his top traits. And you know who would know this really well? I do know.

Our next guest. Yes. Jason Vukala, going to join us after this break. Get smarter when you listen to Hockey Talk, the Hockey PEO cast with Dmitri Filipov. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome back to Real Kipper and Born. We are going to be joined now by our own hockey prospect expert.

Do we have like a pseudo title? Anyway, it's on the line up there. Yeah, no, but like, have we given him a director of scouting title? I think his title's Evar Bukula. No. Is that a no, Boogs? No. Bukla, pro hockey.

group and sports net puckpedia former NHL scouting director if you want one we can do it books no I'm out I'm out I'm good I'm good the way I am thank you yes you are my own skin the way I am right now it's good well thank you very much for joining us tell us about your night last night where were you what you think what's

what's going on my Chinese Sharpay which is a wrinkle dog I think I've got a wrinkle dog yeah I've got a couple pictures of the wrinkle dog great dog Bruno yeah you got him well you got him from the blue j run for the the extra inning game last year and he's pulling me into bed he was all mad at me. Anyways, why I'm about to say,

Bornies, I'm sitting on my comfy chair, just watching things unfold. The number 12 pops out of that ping pong thing, and I spring out of the chair, and I just spoke, let's just say that the top of his head wasn't a wrinkle anymore because I was holding, like, his wrinkles were over here, I stepped on the board, dog. I couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe it. Like, what a stroke of luck.

I mean, it was a documentary series in a 24-hour period of time, the highs and the lows and all the emotions that have gone into the week that has been with the Toronto Maple Leafs and what a way to end well what a way to springboard your new executive team into action here in Toronto.

Stroke of luck. Yeah, it's just, you know, a lot of people, they're still not in a fantastic spot booths and we can get into the future or the lease or whatever. But this is just such a lifeline. Like it's just, the only way I look at it is some water wings. Like you just, you're thrown this, you're thrown this life preserver

and now you just kind of can change the future and you have options. It's a crazy swing. Well, let me ask you this. If you go to the gas station and you get one of those scratch tickets from behind the counter, Sammy, and you scratch it and you win, and you know what the thing says you can win $25,000, let's just say. And you scratch it and you win $5,000. Are you walking away saying, geez, I should have had another 20 or are you happy with the five?

And that's how I'm approaching this. I can't deal with the later. I got to deal with the now. I'm really excited about this. I think this is a great opportunity, and it's a real positive thing. And I know what you're saying. I'm not, like, I'm in the,

in the player development team building business. I understand exactly where you're at, but this is a huge opportunity for them. And I just, I know Borny dropped a story today, so did I, and I've already started to do all the homework in relation to, because people are going to start talking about analytics and the approach to the draft and different things now with the new team in place. So I ran the numbers. One of the things that I'm afforded the luxury of having behind the scenes because I'm still part of the scouting community is through our software that we're provided through Rick that scouting, it's called. One of the things we can do in there is I can start to draw out historical data in relation to trades. So trade up, straight backs. So I can enter in the first overall if it's ever been traded or the fifth. And now if I get the return of 25 and 35 and I give up the fifth.

what's that look like historically over a 20-year period of time, whatever I choose. I ran it three or four times today. The only team that makes sense at all for the Leafs to make a deal with and they won't do it because they don't have to is the San Jose Sharks. So it doesn't even make sense for the Vancouver Canucks. Like it doesn't make sense for Toronto to go from one to three and three and 33. If you can imagine this, guys, I put it in the article, three and 33 historically over the last since 2007, because I thought that was pretty good, like 18 years worth of data. that was a good kind of quant there. Over 18 years, 3 and 33 has played about 130 more games,

but scored about 100 less points, those two slots historically compared to the number one overall. So what's that tell you that, yeah, you might get some depth in your lineup. You might get more man games, if you will, but you're not going to get the point production or you're not going to get that superiority out of the one slot. So I think that they're going to walk up to the microphone. Yeah. Well, it is, but I would want to know number one plus a UFA, you know, or what my second body I would have instead of the other guy, you know,

like if you tie another guy to that, does it change things? So that's great that you introduce that. So that's why Borny in the process, in the war room here, the way we did it, Al Tour, our director of pro scouting, we would have them on the other side of the room and we'd be bouncing things like, okay, if we did this, because you got to stay in your lane, right? You can only go with what you know, which is the amateur draft. Like if I start pretending when I got a pro scouting director in the room that I know more than him that there's a UFA on the horizon or whatever, well, I'm not doing my job.

I'm just clouding judgment at that time. I'm creating noise, unnecessary noise. So if you just go by what you know, you present it to your GM and then he says, okay. But if we were to do that, we could draft two players. I see where they fit in our depth chart. And here's how much cap space and money I have to go out and spend this on radish on defense, for example. I'm spitballing here. but for my lane, for my lane,

when your general manager asks you the question or your president, I start diving into all kinds of equations. And I tell them, listen, yeah, we get some volume here, but I'm not so sure we hit a home run. Yeah, yeah, that's fascinating stuff. And I do want to ask you more about the scouting meetings and cross-checkers and how this upcoming time is going to work. But I think we got to talk, who's it going to be.

Like, you know, everyone's talking about this number one overall pick. You got Stenberg, McKenna, Chase Reed, we hear they like. You've talked about Malhotra. Take it away, Boogh, well, I got to go by my body of work and stay true to my beliefs, and that's Stenberg. And I'm on record pretty much everywhere in the last 24 hours, saying the reasons why.

And I've watched Stenberg now since, and I know Sammy's already shaking his head, I don't believe. This is when Sammy should go outside and light up, go outside and light up another dark for the next three minutes here, Sammy. You don't start on. Exactly. Stenberg is, guys, and I'm not saying this lightly, he plays a game like an Alexander Barkoff on the wing.

Okay, that's the way he plays. And one of the clips that I, historically I went into my archives, if you will, and I drew out one of my clips from the 2003 U18 Worlds. The kid was 15 years old, and I included it in my article today. He was a play driver at the U18 level as a double underage. Fast forward to today. His trajectory continues to ramp up. He's in the SHL.

He produces historical scoring to the tune of only the Sedeen twins have ever had anything better. And think about all those players that have come out of the SHL. And I guess you can ping pong it back to me and say, well, the peer groups change and the game has changed and all this other stuff. Okay, fine. But it still is what it is. It's very impressive. He's about to go play for the men's world team in Sweden, the World Championship team. He's got three points, I think, in two games.

two games leading up to it. So I think he's got the brain, if required, maybe down the road to, you know how you guys have toyed a little bit with Neelander moving to the middle? Even when Marner was here is like, can he play the middle. Turns out he can by the way, Marner. Well, this guy could too, Sammy. He really could. So Stenberg's one.

He's not going to be as dynamic and as flashy as McKenna. So I don't want anybody to misunderstand. I'm still splitting hairs. It's how I want to build my team. So let me just talk about the Toronto Maple Leaf. Okay, and I'm curious to see how you guys feel about this, because this is how I feel now. I've just gone and witnessed what they went through over the last number of years.

Let's call it 10 years. Okay, let's call it 10 years. And the way they built the team was skill, and then some kind of lighter players, call it Neelander, Marner, whatever. Every April, guys, the three of us over the last five years, I've been working with you, we would convene and have the same complaints. We'd have the same conversations, right? And then you go out watch the Carolinas of the world and the Florida's of the world.

teams that genuinely wear you out. Ivers Stenberg is going to be a harder out at the hardest time of the year. And that matters to me, okay? It matters to me. So if I'm splitting hairs on an extra 10 or 15 points, I'll take the hard out. I'm going to tell you something.

If Alexander Barkoff wanted to cheat the game, he'd score 120 points. Watch him play. He's got that kind of skill, but he doesn't do it. So yes, McKenna is going to be shot out of a cannon. He's going to do some things offensively that's going to be more impressive, Sammy. But for the good of the group, the glue of the group at the hardest time of the year,

I'm projecting Stenberg as one. Yeah, I mean, it's really hard to sit here after an unbelievably concise soliloquy. Well, me who's watched that zero times. It's like me pouring over the tapes here. But I just, I brought this up in the first block with Borny. I'll bring it up with you here. And it's a great thing for a person who's worked in scouting and worked with general managers. It's just so risky books.

a guy that's been the consensus first overall here for two years. He's been a hotly touted prospect at the world juniors in the lexicon of all the fans. And I know you're not making decisions better than a fan. You've got to get the best player. But just the risk of taking Stenberg and having McKenna turn into whatever he's going to turn into, it's unbelievable.

And then having Stenberg scoring 50 points a year, but he's great defensively. I just, I know you don't make decisions because of the fans. I'm just telling you, massive risk with an already teetering fan base. That's where I'm at on it. Yeah, it's fair. I mean, these are, these are, and to be fair to you and the fan base, I understand.

I don't, I'm not misunderstanding. He's nasty. I totally get it. I totally get it. But in the room, guys, in the room, that's not how you think about it. You don't think about it that way. Stenberg has never, this is four years, four years. He's never, I've never once left the rank, think to myself there's a risk in that guy.

Like there's no risk. Like he, let me put it to you this way, Sammy. Yeah. If the tables were turned and they, it's obscene because it's kind of not fair for me to put you on the spot this way. But knowing what I know about scouting the SHL and how hard it is, Borny, you've seen guys when you're coming through the college and pro. Like you've seen guys go there and play in that league. You know how hard that league is. Oh, my God.

If McKenna was playing in the SHL this year and Stembert was playing at Penn State, he wouldn't. have he would have eclipsed McKenna's points or at least been close enough to those points, and he would have done a whole bunch of other things to give you, you know, more confidence in the trajectory. It would have been different. So, you know, let's, let's, it's not an exact science. I understand that I understand where you're coming from, but there's no risk here. Somebody's getting a great player. By the way, Mahaltra is going to be a great player.

I think Verhaw's going to be a great player. I think Chase Reed's going to be a great player. So everybody down the line here is going to get something good. I think Stembert can be great. I really do. And, you know, that's just, I'm sticking to my guns on this. Okay, I mean, that's fair. The ceiling factor, you think he has a higher ceiling than McKenna and McKenna has the higher ceiling?

Like I know you say the- So you have to preface that when you give me that question, I need more background. So what's- Just like a point-producing superstar? Like, I don't know, I don't know, ceiling just like who's going to have a better career? I think they're both going to have the, I think they're going to have different careers. I think they're both going to be high, have highly-series. successful careers. But we're going to judge their success based around other work that's that's

been done around them. So I'll put it to you this way. If the Chicago Blackhawks, Land McKenna, or Stenberg, or Chicago Blackhawks, Lyon, Stenberg, they're going to go in Chicago and they're going to have Bidard as a youngster in the middle, celebrini in the middle. So you understand what I'm saying here, these guys will be great early. The Toronto Maple Leafs could be in transition a little bit here. I don't know. We'll see what happens. They see what the management group wants to do. But, you know, just think that they're going to be different, but the team result, the team concept at the hardest time, there's a B game with one of them, and there's an A plus and an A with both of them. A plus offense for McKenna, A offense for Stenberg, A plus defense for Stenberg, and then B defense

at best for McKenna. Okay. That makes sense. Yeah, yeah, totally. So in reading some stuff about all these kids, Chase Reed, I find, consistently talked about. First off, when I watch his highlights, I'm like, oh, yeah. He's got a great, he's got a great mixtape.

He does. Like, he looks dynamic, and I'm watching the league full of Lane Hudson and Matthew Schaefer and all these young guys, Quinn Hughes away. Everyone's juking around it there. It's like, okay, that's awfully appealing. But when you guys get to have your scouting meetings and you guys are talking about these people as people, has that, how important is that factor? because I was going to say with Chase Reed, I lost my track for a second,

Chase Reed, everyone says he's a great leader, he's a great kid, he's a great committed, he's this like all things, virtue, hockey, good things. How important are those things when you're considering? And I will say, has McKenna's scrape with the law affected his standing there at all? Well, let me answer the last part of that first. The answer to that is no, and I don't want to regurgitate what he did and going to detail about it. But my bias at this point in time is that it was an unfortunate circumstance. that wrong place, wrong time, better not happen again, though, if that makes sense.

Like, just better not happen again. Grow up and make sure that when that happens, going forward when you're cashing million dollars checks, you're representing our city, the logo on the front of your jersey, get the hell out of there. Don't be around it anymore. When I get to the other side of it there with Chase Reed and the way you're describing things at the combine, yeah, it matters. It matters because, you know, it is somewhat difficult, Borny, and you do homework on

players and you meet with players. hopefully in their comfort zone elsewhere through the course of the season. So, you know, if you're up in the Sioux, you take him out for maybe a dinner, just introduced. So, you know, and he's comfortable, right? He's in his surrounding because when they come to the Combine, if you haven't seen them before and he walks into your boardroom, let's not forget, some of these kids are 17, turning 18. Remember the three of us at 17, 18?

Walking into a bunch of NHL executives, 10 or 12 of? Like, I would have crap my drawers back there. I couldn't walk into the principal's office, but. Yeah, thanks. You're terrified, right? You might not get the best version of them outwardly. They might just be, and they might have got beat up at the last interview. But having said that, it does tell you something, doesn't it?

Because they all want something, and these guys were talking about, they're going to arrive in the league early. What does that mean? It means a million bucks in your back pocket and high expectations from guys like us, you know, the Leaf fan base, the management team, the scouts, they absolutely need you to be great early, right? how are you going to do that? You're going to have to be able to persevere. So, yeah, I learn things at those meetings. I want to learn about perseverance. I want to see how he reacts to a hard question,

not being a jerk to the kid, but I am going to learn things about these people, you know, and because very quickly they're going to land at an NHL training camp next year, and there's going to be a 29-year-old guy who's on a PTO, who's dying for that roster spot, and he's going to make life miserable on you, right? So. Grulzy's flying in there with an elbow.

Oh, grulzy's coming in hot. Years ago in Nashville, I watched Jordan Tutu blow somebody up. I can't remember who it was right now. One of our rookies could have been Cody Franson at the time. And I thought to myself, oh, my God, what a message that was in like a scrimmage game. You know, and Toots, you know, Toots could hit people hard back then. Yeah, I remember that well, Jr. It's all part of the process, Bernie.

And by the way, Chase Reed, he has had to overcome things. I've had some heated discussions recently with some people in the analytics community. And here's what they're telling me. His historical data, they're worried that his trajectory is late to arrive compared to his peer group. Why is that? Like he's a year older already and he's only really piped off this year. Why wasn't he piping off earlier, you know, in his trajectory? My response to that is this.

He went to Waterloo in the USHL after not making the Sue Greyhounds his first, or he didn't go to the camp. He went to the USHL at Waterloo. They scratched him for eight straight games. The kid goes to the North American Hockey League in Bismarck. He plays to the best of his ability. Guess what? The Sue Greyhounds call him up at Christmas time. He bypasses the USHL.

Goes right to Sue St. Marie. And what's he done since then? Light it up. Huge amount of trajectory, including at the World Juniors of Christmas, when Hudson gets hurt, he's running their power play with the World Junior team. So instead of comparing them analytically,

historically with numbers compared to his spear group. How about this? The kid persevered and look where he's going. And that means something to me. Quickly, we don't have a ton of time here, Bookes, but just one more on Stenberg. I ask this to Kipp, I'll ask it to you. Do you think the Sundin factor is there with Stenberg and Sundin? No. No. Absolutely not. Nope. Too big a deal. We're talking about the decision is way too big to introduce the flag into that type of equation. Gotcha. John Chikey when asked about his coach, he's strategy, he values competitiveness and hockey sense.

Sounds pretty Stanbergy to me. Well, listen, and you guys have heard me say it. I don't know you want me to go, and you can hold me accountable as when we get to the draft. But you got to think it. You got to be able to skate it, and you better be relentless. Because if you don't think it, play it with speed, and you're not relentless, none of the rest of your skill set matters because of the league is too hard. Well, listen, we never question your competitiveness.

Love talking hockey with you. Thank you so much. your time, Bukes. Yeah, of course, guys. This is fun. I can't wait for the rest. Enjoy the rest of your day. See, Bukes.

All right, buddy. That was Jason Bucula, pro hockey group, Sportsnet, Puckpedia, former NHL. That was awesome. I mean that. You know, I, this is, I'll tell this story here,

but I went to London with a bunch of my buddies to go to a London night's own set attack game, and Bucola lives in London. And he said, hey, like, you know, come out to the bar after, we'll meet up, we'll have a pioneer or whatever. and Bukula sat there for two hours and just fielded it from my free mutant friends. Like just questioning him about Matthews over Barcov and just like sat there.

He legitimately is the best guy on the talk of. He just did a two hour radio show over your buzz. He just like, oh, you can't Matthews. And then Barkoff won the cop that year. So we're like, Bukes might have been right. Anyways, I adore that guy. But I do think it's a really good education for those of us who, who comment on this stuff sort of,

hey, I want the biggest name. I want the kid I've known about since he was 14. And then you got a guy being like, look, last time we called Bookes, he was in Bratislava. Yes, I know. He's like, that's why he was in. Trechin, was he?

He's like, hey, I am across the continent, you know, across the globe watching these guys. So tough to challenge him. I do you want to. I do disagree, though. That's it. Yeah, that's fine. Yep.

Do you want to sneak in a call? Okay. I don't know how much time do we have, Derek? Maybe we don't have enough time. 90 seconds. Not enough time. We don't have enough time. Okay.

You know what we're going to do? We have some time after we talked to Sat Shaw. We're going to expose the national audience to a couple of these calls. Sorry. The babysitter's not here today. The national audience, yeah, the babysitter. It is going to be fascinating. Just seeing how the national audience has received this news, they're not going to be happy.

They're not good. So when we come back, We are going to be joined by Sat Shaw, host of Canucks Central, and we are going to talk even more about all this stuff. Correct. We will see you on the other side of the break.