Real Kyper & Bourne - Maple Leaf Post-Mortem

Episode Date: May 15, 2023

Another year, another disappointing playoff exit for the Leafs. Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee open the show with their reaction to Sheldon Keefe's and Kyle Dubas' end-of-year press conference availability, their biggest takeaways, Dubas' contract negotiations and the likely value of Auston Matthews' looming extension (4:00). Next up, columnist for Sportsnet.ca Luke Fox opens with his reactions to locker room clean out day, if this is potentially the final chapter of the core four and who would be the odd man out (4:37). Finally, they close out with Game 5 analysis.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

This is Real Kipper and Born on Sportsnet 590 The Van. Lockout clean out day for the Toronto Maple Leafs after losing game 5 to the Panthers. We are going live right now to Scotiabank Arena where we expect Sheldon Keefe to speak. for them getting their feedback and uh you know as it relates to the playoffs in the most recent series the players shared the disappointment that i have and the the sense that it was a missed opportunity and there's a lot of excitement around our team and don't feel good about having to come in for a day like this it's never fun to come in I think that's the one takeaway the one thing we certainly learned whether you lose in the first round or the second round it still sucks and not a good feeling so I think that was pretty unanimous throughout the group that we felt we had more hockey in us.

That said, clearly it's very difficult to win in the playoffs. And, you know, we learned that and saw that through ourselves here. But, you know, it's a long day, a day like this, to go through the process of meeting with everybody and send them on their way, but it's a necessary step in the process, and now the off-season begins. Thanks. We'll move to questions. Go ahead, Kevin.

Sheldon, a lot of talk about there possibly being a lot of change in the offseason here. You never know. But what's your take of your desire to remain with this team and to keep the core players that have been around here for a long time together? Well, I certainly love and appreciate my position and the chance to coach the Toronto Maple Leafs. I've enjoyed every day of it. It's been, we've gone through a lot of different things from COVID and all those different things that we've had to deal with along the way.

But certainly love this job, love this opportunity, love this challenge of navigating through and finding a way for our team to win a Stanley Cup. In terms of the core group and everything, I feel like we've grown a lot together. And while on a day like today, it's really tough to feel or sense any sort of progress, but I do feel we've made progress as a group. And a lot of the disappointment that comes in losing is attached to the excitement that you have for your team and the potential that your team has. And that excitement and that potential, I believe, is still very much there. And I think we feel that.

I think we feel good about the fact that we're able to push through and get to the first round or get through the first round yet you also sense that you're so close and the margin is so thin to get beyond that you know get from eight to forward and ultimately to two to one, you know, that journey. It feels, you feel close, yet you recognize how far away it is. But, you know, coming in today, especially spending time with the players, I mean, the last couple of days for me have been, you know,

pretty lonely and lots of reflection and trying to understand what's, what happened and all of that. And there'll be more time to do that but getting in today and sitting with the players and speaking with them you know you're you're right back in the fight again and recognizing that this is you know disappointing day here today but you still have lots of belief in the group from a coaching standpoint Sheldon what do you wish you had done differently in the Florida series I mean there's anytime you lose you know you're gonna question a lot of

different things and you you wish you'd done this or wish you had done that you know I wouldn't pinpoint one thing there I mean anytime you're coaching a team, you're making hundreds, if not thousands, of decisions a day that impact everything that you're doing. And you're not going to get all those right. And, you know, there's some I got wrong, for sure. I believe you try to put your team in the best position possible. It's a lot easier to question or to not feel good about your decisions

if they don't go right. I also feel like our team was in a lot of good positions to be able to get on the right side of games, talk about how close the games were, some of the chances that we missed, you're one goal away or you're one mistake away or one less mistake away, I should say, or one more save. Margins are so thin, but it is, of course, easier to look at things that didn't go your way

and question them. I think it's important to trust my instincts and trust the decisions you make, recognizing that you are going to get some wrong. And I'm not perfect. Like every offseason, I'll look to improve and get better, and that's really the goal. I think as much as you're challenging and pushing your players

to always be growing and evolving and improving, that's the coach I'm no different. Sheldon, if you compare this team to the one that just beat you, is there something that the Panthers had that you think this team was missing? And if so, what is it? Again, it's a hard question to answer. You know, I'm not going to get too much into Florida specifically, other than to say I think they're a lot better team

certainly than their record would show. I mean, they're President's Trophy winner a year ago. And, you know, a player like Kachuk coming in. And then, you know, they got world-class goaltending in our series. All those things sort of changed their fate a little bit. But obviously, we talked about the fact the series is lost in the first three games. Inside those three games, to me, it's really in game two.

That's a series altering game um you know as much as you want to you know go out and win game three and try to get both on the road getting you know not getting one at home there was was tough florida played hard um they defended uh well especially later in the series i thought this the game was really wide open frankly we were so we were a little bit we were we weren't expecting it to be as open as it was frankly earlier series the number of clean chances that we had we didn't have really very many of those in the Tampa series so we were unable to convert on some of those chances and you could just see the goaltenders confidence growing

from that and as the goaltenders confidence grows to that level a team like Florida who's already confident given they just knocked off Boston they're growing even more inside of that and so our inability to convert on our chances early in the series I think clearly had a dramatic impact. Sheldon, we all know your relationship with Kyle. I mean, he elevated you into this role, and you guys have a very close relationship. His contract is up.

I wonder if you could speak to what you hope to see happening there and the impact that obviously it might have on you either way. Well, obviously, first of all, as you do too kyle and i have a lot of history and and uh i believe in a lot of the things that he's done here that have put us in a position to succeed and of course i'm hopeful that that that gets worked out but it's of course out of my hands and uh respect for him you know it's i've been really kind of left him alone and let him let him really uh sort through the things that he needs to sort through and let the process take care of itself my job here today especially is meeting with the players is to is to uh you know set set them on their on their path uh through that but obviously have tremendous amount of respect for kyle not

just for what he's done for this organization, but what he's done for me personally, my growth and my development as a coach in terms of what happens from here is out of my control. We'll do three more. Mark, Terry, and Lance. Sheldon, what do you want your players to take away from the season, the progress you felt, and yet the disappointment of how to end it? Well, you want them to take away the good feeling of finding a way through a very good Tampa team and winning the first round, which has been obviously a major hurdle here for quite some time,

but also the sense and the understanding of how difficult it is and it does not get easier. You knock off a team like Tampa, who sort of felt like the Goliath in our division in the Eastern Conference and all of a sudden a Florida team comes that's building momentum and they come in ready and take it from you. So that's how hard it is. Yet you're just right there you talk about it the process of going from 16

teams to 8 teams like it starts to feel real real and tangible just stay with it have no disruptions stay on the attack and and keep building that momentum.

I thought we went into the series a little too guarded and didn't go out and attack it and grab it and credit to Florida because they did that. And that's what you expect is two teams to do that. And that's where I think the growth is for our team as we continue to look at how do you get now to take the next step and that's it's part of it I think the players really feel that that's really the message otherwise you're just kind of giving them the feedback on their season you know and it's the full season

regular season and the playoffs and sending them on their way and and you know as from myself and coaches will go through our process and and you know look to come back and be better Sheldon the core remains the same what kind of players does it need to help it get over the hump here do you think? Just some of the additions Kyle made late, I think a lot of us thought those were the right moves. What does it need do you think going forward? Yeah, again, I mean obviously I, you know, I don't get too involved in the player decisions and the personnel decisions. I do believe the moves we made this season set us up for success and I think we saw that progress and that growth.

You know, these overtime games, these tight hockey games that we were finding our way onto the right side of. I don't think that's by accident, and I think the group coming together the way that it did was all part of that. And it's really hard to pinpoint, right? You look at the Tampa series, you know, I thought our top players really carried us in a lot of ways,

certainly offensively, a lot of other areas as well, while the support guys did their job and found their way to, you know, to grind through some tough situations and some competitive situations, you know, and then now you move on to a Florida series and now you need a little bit more offense and trying to find a way to get that one more goal.

So as you go through the journey, you need to have as much depth and be as versatile as possible. I think that's through the journey, you need to have as much depth and be as versatile as possible. I think that's ultimately the goal. You're trying to manage the group as best you can there. But I think Kyle and the scouts and managers, I've had great trust in them and their process and continue to. Last question. How would you describe your relationship with the Corps 4?

Do you think you're getting enough out of them? Yeah, I mean, I think it's a strong one. We've been through a lot. I think we're able to have very honest discussions like we did here again today and throughout the season. I think there's a lot of back and forth there. Players have responded well at times when being challenged and pushed I think we've seen growth at each of their games I look at you know I feel like William Nylander

had a career year this year and not just the numbers but just also with how he performed he's a guy that we've been really pushing and trying to get to and to get to this level and I feel like he responded very well this season the others have set a really high standard. And I thought, like I alluded to in the first round, they're a huge reason why we move on. And then in the second round, they got a lot of really clean looks that they would expect that they would convert on and they didn't. So I feel like a lot of things get magnified, of course,

when the puck doesn't go in. The process was there. They're going through a lot of things get magnified, of course, when the puck doesn't go in. The process was there. They're going through a lot of different things to get to those chances. And in terms of what I'm getting out of them, I look for body language. I look for work ethic. I look for competitiveness. I look for all those kind of things. And then you expect that their talent is going to be able to convert and take over.

And sometimes that's the case, certainly in Tampa. In the Florida series, things dried up a bit for them. And we weren't able to play long enough for them to find their way through that. Thanks, Coach. Thank you. We'll be back momentarily with the Cowboys. That was head coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs Sheldon Keefe as they continue their locker room clean out day after losing in five games to the Florida Panthers

in the Eastern Conference semifinal Nick Kiprios Justin Bourne Derek Brandeo David Siss Boomba Sammy McKee along for the next two hours on our real Kipper and Bourne, Derek Brandeo, David Siss, Boom Boss, Sammy McKee, along for the next two hours on our Real Kipper and Bourne show. Been a bit of a strange day in terms of not knowing scheduling. The one thing that we did hear out of Scotiabank Arena from a few out of the media, JB, is I don't know really what's happening here. We do expect Kyle Dubas to follow Sheldon Keefe, and we'll take you right back to Scotiabank Arena. But as far as the rest of the day, show up at 9,

and we'll speak to you when we want to speak to you. Yeah, is that what's going on here? It's tough to make sense of the day today on top of so much for us to pick through. I hope they brought the media some lunch. Maybe a box lunch. Maybe somewhere to lie their head for a little bit. Pots they have for daycare kids.

Only one a year box lunches, and that's at the draft. One of those banquet-style burgers. Sounds good. Well, hello, fellas. Hi, guys. Sammy, you okay? Yeah. Would you, uh, a weekend to just focus on your mom's Sunday and just blank everything out?

I had a phenomenal weekend outside of Leafs Results. Beautiful weather. Got a lot done. Saw my mother-in-law. Talked to my mom yesterday. You know, went to a patio, had a couple beers. Really enjoyed my weekend. And it's almost like the least thing that happened.

He needed the finality of it. He didn't like dangling with the uncertainty. Now that it's over, he's okay. I think the way it ended on Friday really sucked. Well, it sucked for our show's sake, because I would have loved to have get in sooner than this on the whole thing. But just a particularly kick in the gut, right? You think you're in that game and

you got a chance and you're hoping you're believing outside of toronto outside of ontario bit of a circle boot because the oilers are out as well that was like the uppercut after the body blow yeah and yeah it's not fun it's not fun for fun for Canadians now moving forward as they all raced and clamored to go watch Carolina and Florida in the Eastern Conference. Yeah, it's a bummer. I mean, we talked to talk to Sammy after the game, and it was like, it's amazing how quickly it went from game five heartbreak to what does this mean for the team?

You know, like, I mean, instantaneous. It was like, does Dupas work for the team you know like i mean instantaneous it was like this is dubious work for the penguins now i don't know if it was instantaneous jb because uh they gave many in the media including myself when when i wrote about it last week a head start you're down three nothing in a series the narrative had already started so So it was an easy transition to maybe to most definitely we can ask these hard questions now. For sure. Our show after they went down 3-0 was much more scathing than the one when they actually lost, I think. Yeah.

Because you sort of have that feeling of they go down 3-0 of the finality of it. It almost felt like it was over at that point. And it was. They got that one win down in Florida, but they come back here and lose on home ice. It's just kind of like, sorry, felt like it was over. Yeah, they were diagnosed terminal, and you said goodbye. We'll just kind of continue on.

We've got some kippers, clippers, including a lot of players. The focus, obviously, on the next two hours will be that core four. As we await, Kyle Dubas still needs to speak. And we will get to those quotes. But let's just go back to what we just heard moments ago. Because as we walked in, we threw it as quickly as we could to Sheldon Keefe, head coach of the Toronto Maple Leafs. Just what you got out of it. For me personally, I could tell you that there's not one thing I would use

as a Kippers clipper that I found interesting. It's funny, all year long, he was our first star. Today, when you're wanting to hear him the most, I got absolutely nothing. Coach is going to keep his mouth shut. Nothing out of Sheldon. That was good on him.

I don't know a lot. To go up there, what did he speak for? Four minutes? Five minutes? Ten, twelve. Was that long? That's called the filibuster. He said absolutely nothing and you

know what was worse for me the media questions like come on what didn't you like did i miss something did i miss the question that said are you back next year do you think you're gonna get fired any reassurances that you're coming back next year as a head coach great question how about this question do you deserve another chance what did we get what do you take away from the playoffs what's your relationship with the core four i'm embarrassed for the guys down there listen i think you're you've got a fair point you know this is uh you know it's very unlikely that he's back i would say he's got a 10 chance of remaining as the coach into the next year to avoid that is sure i'll give you some i got him at 90 i got him 90 coming back whoa what pardon me i got him coming back oh my god whoa what are you talking about

what am i missing here what are you missing he's he's talking about how he's going to get better next year he's talking about uh moving forward talking about growth he's talking what do you want him to say i think i'm fired i'm not going to answer the questions of course he's got a he's under contract he is the coach until told otherwise but he's very likely to get told otherwise no when the new york rangers lost When the New York Rangers lost and they started their meetings with the players and moving forward, you know where Gerard Gallant was? On a highway driving to PEI. Okay? Here comes Dubas.

Got a little excitement back here. We got to pick this up. Here comes Kyle Dubas. The general manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs, Kyle Dubas. Disappointing to be here. Feel that the group had a substantial opportunity to continue on this spring and unfortunately did not execute to the level that we would all like. And it's another hard lesson for all of us and the entire organization.

With regards to my own situation, I'll just address it off the top. I've had a good, long relationship here with Brendan and the owners. I'll speak to them in the coming days uh but probably more importantly uh speak uh to my wife shannon and our family uh here in the tonight and and tomorrow and see where we're at um as a family um and how we want to proceed um with everything uh this has been a you know, just in learning the past couple of days,

it's been a very taxing year on them. And that's obviously very important to me. So we'll go through all that and we'll all make our decisions and roll from there. But that's that situation. I'll open it up for questions. Josh? Kyle, last year you and Brendan sat shoulder to shoulder at this table with a sort of a unity for the organization to run it back. He's not here. What, if anything, should we read into that today? I'm responsible. So, you know, the decisions made on trades, on roster, on everything, they're on me.

So I feel like I should sit and take responsibility for them. I don't need anybody else to be up and shield it with me. It's on me. Kevin? Kyle, putting aside for a second your own situation, which matters a great deal towards the future of this organization but what's your confidence level that the players that have been here for years the guys we call the core can actually get this done

and win a championship in this city together I think that that was the tone of the conversations with them today Kevin were, were very difficult. And, you know, we all collectively need to continue to raise our level, players and staff. And I think the one thing that I would say about this spring as I sit here, and obviously there's a lot that will need to be cleared in the coming stretch. I don't know what's going on here. But the, well, I know what's going on here,

but I've never seen such a gymnastics amongst the media core before. Anyway, it was impressive. Sorry. I think that, you know, there's a difference, you know, in terms of the goal, it remains the same, Kevin. But perhaps the path needs to shift slightly. It needs to be adapted slightly. And you get in between, you know, persistence and full belief versus being a little too staunch and rigid.

And I think that's a question that I would take the time for myself um and reflecting on the year uh and and then decide on that uh heading into the spring towards a draft and free agency. Luke? Kyle what's your level of belief that Sheldon Keefe is the right coach next year to lead this group? Um I think and what I've seen in in Sheldon, you know, and I'll just kind of go back to these playoffs, which were disappointing, but I felt, Luke, that in even going back to the last series, Sheldon and his staff made adjustments which put our group in position to capitalize i'll just for example use you know going from game one to two the major topic was their top the what at the bennett line and the coaching staff did a good job to adjust and address that going into game three if you go back and watch game three in the first period we had i think it was five odd man rushes based off the coaching staff's adjustments and then game four and five you know we played well it was just we put ourselves into a really bad hole and it was too little too late so if there

weren't those adjustments happening I would probably be a little bit more down on him it's there's still to me has to be a full evaluation of of everything and a full and conclusive answer on that i think to do so right now would be too hasty yeah we'll cap questions with those that are standing right now chris hey kyle recognizing what you said about there being a family and business aspect to your decision with your future I'm just wondering though do you still have it in you do you want to be here do you want to still run the Maple Leaf? What I would say to that is that I think it requires me to have a full family discussion Chris so I can't my family is a hugely important part of what i do so for me to commit to anything without you know having a fuller uh understanding of what this year took on them uh is probably unfair for

me to answer where i'm at i I wish I could give you more, but we haven't been able to have those full discussions yet. But it was a very hard year on them. And thus, it's tough for me to... What I would say is that I'm not going to... I definitely don't have it in me to go anywhere else. So it'll either be here, or it'll be taking time to recalibrate reflect on the seasons here

but you won't see me next week pop up elsewhere i don't i can't put them through that after this year kyle for you personally what have the last few weeks been like we've seen the emotional reactions of course to the games and everything that's been going on and getting into it with some fans in Tampa. How would you describe your emotions, what this has been like the last few weeks? Well, they're all different. I'm happy to go through them because they're my own foolish, at times, actions. The Tampa one was me defending our fans and Morgan,

whether I should or shouldn't. I'll leave that to you all to decide, looking back on it. You know, I thought it was the right thing to do in the moment. I don't know that my language was appropriate for this position, but anyway, it's Morgan Riley, it's our fans, they're passionate, obviously, and I am as well, and that was that. I think, you know, throwing the water bottle, I was upset with our play, I didn't know Josh Cloak was running surveillance on our suite and recording everything I was saying on Saturday.

But, you know, listen, when I started down this, I'm an emotional person. I have, and sometimes they show outwardly, and I am deeply passionate about what we do and our people here, the people I work with, the people who work for me and so when you're in it for years at a time with people and you want them to have success you're gonna be emotional that that's me I know some people might not like it or care for it but that's me and I think you know I've always been that way it's just so I have to realize that you know there's more I could see it when it was happening in Tampa every single person is taking out their phone and I'm like oh this is it's not gonna go all too well but you know it's a different era even than like nine years ago when I

started when I was in the Sioux everything's being being recorded. The television, particularly the Canadian broadcasts, seem to really like showing the general managers, especially when they're upset or happy, which that's what the people want, great. And, you know, but this is me. I mean, I'd like to say I'd be able to not be that way or not be happy or angry when things don't go well, but this is me. Matt?

Kyle, when you look back at the degree to which you changed the lineup at the trade deadline, so I think it was six new bodies going in, consummate trophy winner, multiple Stanley Cup rings from Luke Shen, do you have any moments now where you kind of wonder what is left to change what is left to do to try and get this team to break through and assuming you do end up back here what is left what would you consider adding to this team well I always think I think the minute that you don't have any ambition or the minute that you don't have any ideas in terms of what to change is that's probably the time where you have to sit and say um maybe this is not for me

or it's for somebody else um in my situation here and and looking at it i think that i i liked i was worried when we when we brought in so many guys that guys that it was going to be a lot in a short time. And I thought the coaching staff and in particular the players that were here did a good job of really integrating those guys quickly. And those players did a great job of integrating themselves quickly. And it was a good fit and they performed well. You know, we have, we're starting to have a group of younger players that are our own, that some of them, you know, Nick Robertson, we sent him down to the Mars at the beginning of the year.

He had a really good stretch. He got hurt. He'll be back in time for training camp. Matt Nyes came in, played well during the playoffs. He'll be here. You got Bobby McMahon, who pushed throughout the year and played well when he was up and played very well for the Marlies. He got injured on Long Island and so now he's pushing. So we're starting to get to that

point where, you know, whether it's Niemela, Villeneuve, Hervenin, Minton, you know, another first round pick this year where those guys are starting to come along and that's really where we need to get to. i you know adding the players each year as we need has been important but we really need our own guys to continue to develop and and jump in and come along and continue to find good value bets in free agency now we'll have more cap space this year than in the past and and but we'll have a lot more to address because of the, as you mentioned, the free agents, Matt. Rosie? Kyle, one of the first words out of your mouth when you sat down was disappointment. And I think you were referring, obviously, to the whole equation.

But I was wondering how disappointed you are in the team itself, in the players, their inability to rise to the challenge and particularly in their second round there yeah you know they crumbled sure i i think you know rosie when you you can't before the playoffs like one of the things and and i i find in this position you're you can't the pessimistic things that enter into your mind you can't really you don't you're so focused on what's the day ahead but in this like when i sit here it's what's going to happen if these different things happen these different scenarios and one of the things that i had uh lurking was you know the narrative around the team which which i have always and we've had in

these discussions here have always disliked a lot, was like, well, you just need to win a round. Is it a success if you win a round? And I never viewed it as such. I've always viewed it as it's our, we're trying to win four, and we're trying to win the Stanley Cup, and the team, I believe, is capable of that. And it's easy to say, well, you know, why don't they do it, which is what the question is, and that's when disappointment happens. So yes, I'm disappointed. I'm disappointed in the fact that we only scored two goals a game, I think for the last seven games in a row.

And we have to find a way to convert on those chances. And we have to find a way to build in different offensive principles that can allow us to produce more at those key moments. You know, I think that it's interesting watching the games that there's the Western, I don't, this is just my feeling, but in the Western Conference the scoring seems to be more free flowing in our games in particular it seems to have been very tight and close. I don't know whether that bears out across the whole thing or not. But you know, we're going to be in this division in this conference for, we're not moving from the East. So we're, we need to find,

if that's the way it's going to be, we have to find better ways. And so, yes, there's disappointment in, in all of it. The inability to, the inability to get past the first round and then be ready to roll come the second and inability to score throughout and first round and then be ready to roll come the second and Inability to score throughout and and various different matters. I think yeah, that's the best word I would use Can I go back to the answer you gave to Chris about your future knowing that you're not in a position today to give us a Clear answer, but I just want to be precise on this you're saying that if you you're either going to be Leafs GM again or you may take time away from the game like you don't see yourself taking interviews with other organizations that's correct yeah okay and the second question is

you've been steadfast certainly over the last few years that not wanting to move any of your of your top players you believe that you're the core of this team are you open to perhaps training one of those top players this summer if you continue on as GM yeah I would say Pierre that I'm I'm very the answer to this gets construed in very different ways so the answer that I would give is I'm this spring and summer through to next October I'm interested in doing anything That we after a very thorough evaluation is never gonna do something like that It's you you got a bet it's got to be very thoroughly done Which I think the the team we just played serves as a great template for

They won the president's trophy. They lost in the second round. They were disappointed. They get to the summer, and they trade two of their core guys for a great young player, younger player. And that's a big move. But I don't think it was hastily done. It wasn't until, I think it was hastily done it wasn't until I think it

was late July a Friday night late July that they make the move so the way I would answer it is I would consider anything with our group here that would allow us a better chance to win the Stanley Cup so that I would take nothing off the table at all and I think everything would have to be considered um with regards to anything to do with the with the leafs thank you kyle thanks everybody i was kyle dubas general manager of the toronto maple leafs and that i hope concludes today's event at scotiabank hey everybody in the media go home go home well whoa uh i would say we came out of keith's presser saying no good clippers and that one uh chock full Kipper yes yeah more uh more read between the lines more gamesmanship more message sending from Kyle than there was from Sheldon you mentioned gamesmanship yes what did you hear as gamesmanship in there?

I heard a contract negotiation. That's what I heard. Hmm. As in pay me or I won't work? Yeah, just, you know, if you think I'm crawling back to you, think again. I can just go home. What did you make of him taking other destinations off the table?

That, to me, was like the opposite of negotiations. I'd call BS on that. I don't buy it for one second. You think two weeks from now he could be going, I didn't intend to, but they hit me with an offer I couldn't refuse. Didn't we not listen to Paulice in winnipeg going i don't know about coaching anymore and i gotta reevaluate and see where i gone florida wow interesting come on i mean the other the counter to that is he cried talking about his family

and not putting them through he's an emotional guy. And it's true, it is. But sometimes I think there are certain people, and I don't know Sheldon well enough, and you do know, I don't think necessarily 100% it's an act. But I think those type of guys that have those type of bursts, sometimes it could be selective for a little cause and effect. Boy, that's an accusation and a half you asked me. I'm not saying that that was the case with him.

I'm saying I know some people that there's message sending. When you want to throw a bottle or you saw it, rip a frame off the wall and throw it. You're doing it because you want to show people something. Yeah, I mean, I don't know because I'm not like that. So I don't know how the authenticity of the burst happened. Listen, he is an emotional guy. And sometimes it can just be deemed a lack of maturity.

Listen, I'm 56. I can have the occasional, I can say stuff I'm like, yeah, that was dumb, stupid, immature. I didn't get my way. Listen, I'm not that far off from him at times, but I know why I do it sometimes, because I want to try to show you how I feel, and you're not getting it through my words,

so maybe my actions can show you a little bit more. I think Kyle's got that in him, and I do a little bit too. Sammy, any takeaway for you there? That just sounded like a guy to me that may not be back i think he's back i don't know i just i just don't think he's gonna get what he wanted what do you think he wanted outside of this job big money yeah big money i think I think there's a sense that he thinks he's... And again, it's not just marketplace. This is a guy that walks in that building every day and sees one of the most successful storied franchises

make hundreds of millions of dollars to the point where you can watch Messiah make 12, you can watch Nurse make eight, you can watch your boss at six and a half seven and he's like okay well you know i'm not two yeah i'm not two i've done a pretty good job and i've given you 110 115 points so i'm not saying it needs to be six or seven, but can't be two. I think I left that press conference feeling like he will be back. Yes. You know, hearing Kipper definitely swayed me a little bit too, though, Sammy.

Like watching that, you know, so trying to think because, you know, my family knows his family a little bit and trying to think of what they've been through. And imagine every time you're in the store here and someone talk about Dubas, it's a lot of, you know, listen again. Yeah.

Not saying that he was not, he was insincere about the family, but that's just part of the ploy, a marketing or not. It's a negotiation point. We use it all the time. Yeah. You get an offer.. We use it all the time. Yeah, you get an offer. You're not sure on the offer.

I got to take it back to my family. It buys you time. It buys you a little bit of this, a little bit of that. So you're going to tell me now that, you know, you got to go back to your wife and family and have a discussion about your future. Oh, I think they've discussed it. Like, hey, Kyle.

It's probably come up. It comes up in my house at some point between october and now does your wife know you were in your option year yeah she comes home today and goes just so you know i didn't have a question i'm sorry i didn't mention this last eight months but we were in our option year and now we got to talk um what do you think of pamonte brothers sandwiches you like those from Pittsburgh? So I think they've had plenty of discussions, but it's just a nice way to say, I don't have to take your offer if I don't like it.

What do you think about what he had to say about his coach? All I know for sure is this time last year, he looked everybody in the eye and said, what we have here is the next Barry Trotz. We're going to be talking about Sheldon Keefe. Like Barry Trotz. In 15 years, like we're talking about Barry Trotz. That guy you're going to fire?

Eight months later? Eight months later? 12 months later? Well, I think you have a very different tone in this press conference. He didn't say it today, Kip. He said it last summer. This summer he said, you know, we made some good adjustments, but everything's on the table. That just may be him saying there could be an audible from the board of directors yeah he said too hasty to guarantee

anything listen i i know one thing for sure that if he comes back if kyle's back he's not pulling the same thing he pulled 12 months ago when he said, I still believe in this group. That card got played. Now he's singing a different tune that we got to look at things that can get done and I'll consider anything that helps us get better. Using the Florida Panthers example to me when asked about trading one of the core guys

is a massive change in tone from anything he's ever said about any of that's the court of public opinion he's appealing to you know hey look other teams do this and it and it works it's a copycat league listen anybody that wins a stanley cup plays they're big and strong we're going big and strong they're fast we're gonna go and get faster oh they went on goaltending and system we're gonna play defensive hockey with a great goaltender that's all he's doing right now he's just ripping off success yeah every coach every coach and every team does that yeah to me he's applying for permission to trade of an important person with the public. If the board and Brendan together, I guess, decide that, and Kyle decides that he takes the offer that's being presented right now.

If he takes it, they bring him back, and they say, here are our conditions. They all say that to Kyle. Yes. And that's all Kyle's doing is protecting himself so when the changes come, he can make look like he's walking it back right he he didn't he's not the guy that says i still believe in this group and i can win with this group and then give me another chance well let me ask both of you flat out do you think it's the right decision to bring him back you know when when you when you speak of that you got to also speak of if he isn't, what's better?

For sure. I understand that. And outside of maybe Brad Tree living out there, I don't know if there's anything out there that you could sit there and bring in. And the domino effect of doing that and where it leaves you and where a guy like brad tree living would have to come in and the thing that brad tree living would also do to get the job is to talk about the things that Kyle did wrong.

And this is what I'm going to do to change it. And I don't know if Brendan or MLSC would be ready for those changes. He's the guy who made the Kachuk trade. He'd have to be like. If it doesn't play into where you think the issues truly are. So to answer your question, Sam, I think it's right to keep him. I think he is the right guy, and I think he's shown an evolution. I don't think, you know, it's unfortunate that he had to do

a lot of learning on the job here, right? Both of them. Both of them. Him and Sheldon have had some tough learning lessons to win NHL playoff hockey. For sure. Like, they went into it like, we believe in the end, speed and skill will trump all. And then it was like, thump, thump, thump, thump. Okay, take the L.

Now we'll adjust and play. And they've only recently made that adjustment. In March. Yeah. Well, in March. And I would say in previous summers. You know, they brought in Labushkin and Muzzin. And those guys weren't in March. Yeah. Well, in March, and I would say in previous summers, you know, they brought in Labushkin and Muzzin, and those guys weren't in March, but...

I mean, we can talk about the Matthews comments earlier today if you want to get into this, but... I mean, it's a pretty popular question, but I want to get your take on it. Like, how much of them keeping Dubas is to, you know, potentially sign the contract extension that's due to Austin Matthews this offseason. Let's go to Austin's comments because he does mention Kyle,

and then we'll pick it up, Sammy. Sounds good. Of course. My intention is to be here. I think I've reciprocated that before, how much I enjoy playing here and what it means to me and the organization, my teammates, and how much I just enjoy being here.

How important to get that done before next season? Yeah, I think that's important, and it'll all kind of work itself out in due time and just kind of go from there. But as far as everything else goes, I mean, it's, you know, like I've said before, I mean, I really do enjoy playing here. And it's a true honor. And, you know, the work that, you know, we're putting into, obviously,

to continue to strive for that end result is, you know, extremely motivating. Did you not clip him talking about? That was just him talking about his. But he did mention Kyle Dubas. Yeah, and so did Morgan Riley. They all talked about him today. Well, I know, but I wanted Austin's... I can grab it.

No, it's fine. To paraphrase, it was, I've got a great relationship with Kyle Dubas, I think. Basically. Yeah, I saw some of that effect. Yeah. Yeah. So, that plays into Kyle Dubas,

100% moving forward. This is a guy that you have to sign. That plays into it. If you're the board or Brandon Shanahan, and you know, the most important thing to happen this off season is keeping Austin Matthews for winning for revenue for a million other reasons. And it's,

it's leaning that way. That Matthews would stay. I would think that Kyle would go back to the board and say, if you want Austin Matthews, I'm your best chance of signing him. Love it. I mean, yeah. If, in fact, Matthews does like him and has a good relationship with him, sure. It does sound like that comment is a guy who it's positive news.

If you're a Leafs fan, the way that Matthews sounded and it's positive news for Dubas, the way he's talked about Dubas, which is why to me, to our earlier conversation, something has to change. And so why the coach to me seems like an easy fall guy for the border. Brandon take to Kyle and say, you can be back, but.

You can be back, but you're going to have to get rid of one of four. And keep the coach. If he wants to keep the coach. If he believes that he wasn't the issue. Yeah. I mean, they have to do something. You cannot. It's a PR nightmare. The other thing, too, is if you're Kyle and Brendan,

you want to fire Sheldon, who's out there? It's not last year where you've got Gerard Gallant. You got, or not, sorry, not Gerard. There's one. Cassidy. Montgomery was out there. DeBoer. Cassidy. Montgomery was out there. DeBoer. Peter DeBoer was out there.

You had some choices. You got Glenn and Elaine Vigneault. Glenn's not coming here. No? No. Lavi. Who's that? Laviolette.

Reagent. It's an option for sure. Yeah. He was great at our show. They should have him. Bruce Boudreaux. Julian. Yeah. He was great at our show. They should have him. Bruce Boudreaux? Julian? Yeah, I don't see those names. I don't see.

Mike Babcock? I don't see any of those guys over. Yeah. Calvin, Keefe, and Keefe. Yeah, Keefe. I don't. Kipper, are you out of your mind? Yeah.

They're not bringing back Kyle, sheldon the core there's i understand one guy we do not condition is one you got to change the core is one guy i mean you can't do more than one guy i guess you just can't willie austin good at this point can't trade a lot of good players at this point everything is on the table okay if i am now kyle and i think i've got a chance to stay i am now i'm now making calls on every single guy i will look at trading Austin. I will look at trading Mitch Marner. I will look at trading. Nylanders last year. And I look at a way of,

of weeding out John Tavares. You know, everything is on the table. Yes. A hundred percent. Everything's on the table. They'll do exit interviews when people are like, would you approach John about like, they're going to have an exit interview.

And they'll be like, here are the realities of our cap situation. You know, where are you on being here? Where are you? Would you consider it? Like, they'll mention it to him for crying out loud. Well, listen, you can do a lot of things to speed up the process. You mean to him? You can take away his captaincy pajama boy

like is is part of the condition on austin feeling like you're gonna resign and you're you're you're gonna get the captaincy is that is that where that that the signing could lead to is that one of the things that you want you might say after john's two years are up you're the guy i don't think they would i mean hey i've said it before that it probably should have happened but i don't know if i still don't know i that's i i'm just thinking as a negotiation ploy we could have another conversation if actually he'll ever be a captain on an nhl team and can he truly lead like i can have a conversation for you for an hour on maybe why he's not that guy but you if you have the

opportunity to sign i mean like there's obvious warts with him do you need it though i mean just matthews no the captaincy you know, it doesn't change it. That's right. That's another. That's another question. Does he even want it? Yeah. I'm sure he would want it.

Wouldn't you think like you're if you consider yourself one of the best players in the game, you're signing a long term contract. I think he wanted it before. Before when they gave it to Tavares. Yeah. And did that really come back because of an incident in Arizona? Yeah. I think that's probably what it was, right? The mooning? The moon gate?

Showed his pants down? Showed the cheeks? Yeah. Right? Yeah. Was that, did that derail the whole thing about him being the future captain of the Toronto Maple Leafs? I think it did. I actually think it did. I don't know. I feel like we're off track here. No, it's not because it's all tied into whether or not Kyle can get this guy signed.

And if he does, what are the parameters? And here's another one for you. Like, what are you going to sign for? Let's have that conversation right now. Happy to. Love to. Yeah. going to sign for let's let's have that conversation right now happy to love to yeah like does this guy think he's walking in and becoming the highest paid player in the league well yes because the highest paid player in the league who just was nathan mckinnon who passed uh mcdavid he's making 12.6. Yeah. And what did he pass him by? 1. 0.1.

0.1. Yeah. $100,000. Yeah. 0.1. Yeah. $100,000 for a guy who just went through a brick wall for you and won a Stanley Cup.

This guy can't get a goal in five games in the second round and he's gonna go where on his next contract i mean it's natural though kip that you sign a year later cap goes up and the cap is projected to go up significantly after next year like four and five million dollars per season yes it is don't shake your head i mean that's it's gonna go up yeah i don't care no you're gonna fight back against the idea that he shouldn't be but just it can economically his value compared to the cap is going to be worth more than mckinnon he won a heart trophy at 24 years old i know you don't care anymore everyone who pays these guys i don't care i don't care and if he's in it just for the money then you know what don't don't care. And if he's in it just for the money, then you know what?

Don't sign here. Don't come. If you're just in it for the money. Nathan McKinnon just won a Stanley Cup. Yes. He settled for $100,000 more from McDavid when he could have gone up $2 million or $3 million. Because he wants to win another one, right? That's right.

So how about, Austin, if you really want to be here, you can't jump up. You can't jump up. I'm sorry. And number two, you don't deserve it. I think, well, first off, the don't deserve it thing is, I disagree with that. I mean, given where he's at in his career

and what he's accomplished already, I know they haven't won a cup. One career year, 60 goals, a heart. He scored 40 goals and got Selkie trophy votes this year at 6'3", 25 years old. Pay him like a 40-goal scorer then. The year before didn't happen all of a sudden because it was a career year? Maybe it was. Maybe it was.

And maybe it was, but it happened. You have to pay like it existed. So to me, he's going to get a raise naturally. And I think to say, you want to win again you can't take 14 and a half million dollars okay you can't even take 13 i think that's a fine conversation to have i think you can say fine you want to be the highest paid guy in the league take 12.75 take 12.71 he's not taking that well and maybe not but then that's a conversation about what are your priorities sydney crosby signed for 8.7 when he was not taking that. Well, and maybe not. But then that's a conversation about what are your priorities. Sidney Crosby signed for 8.71.

He was worth 10 because what did he care about? He wanted to win. And that's a worthwhile conversation to him about what his priorities are. So that's a story in itself. For sure. But he wanted big bucks. The talk all season long, and where there's smoke, there's fire, was $14, $ 15 million a year.

Yeah. I think he, I don't think he can handle making that and not having the success in the playoffs. You know what might convince him to take less? Hey, pal, you want Callie Yarncroft on your line in playoffs next year? Or would you like someone, maybe a little more money to spend on your wing? You know, you need people around you. I actually am hearing everything you're saying, Kipper, and I do agree that it feels crazy, and he has his obvious warts,

and I know that he probably shouldn't want to be the highest, but it's just the life without him, you're just significantly worse. He's a top five, top ten guy in the league. I'm not debating that. You can't just let him walk. I'm not debating it. You just got to pay him. I know that the arguments are there

that where are you going to find this guy? You cannot replace him. You cannot replace the goals. I get all of that. But, you know know a big reason a big reason why they are where they are right now and no one's talking about this but kyle made a colossal error a big error in allowing this guy to get to 11.6 on a five-year deal. This should have been 11.6 for eight,

and you would have been in a position to make way better decisions, way better. Your back is against the wall right now, and you got everybody saying that Austin holds all the cards. Hey, give me what I want, or I'll walk in a year and you get nothing five was a disaster number for him yeah and it was brilliant on his agent's part it was a disaster number it's a mess right now it's no different than giving mitch six when you see miko ranton and signs for 9.5 million dollars for whatever years but it started with austin for sure no i should apologize it started with willie no no it started with tavaris at 11 well you don't think willie holding

out for oh no willie was nothing at six nine yeah it was at the time people sure cared yeah sure it was but for five minutes hot conversation at that time yeah for five minutes yeah but now it was one of the better contracts in the league to have him on that number. Yes, but when you jumped Tavares at 11, that made 34 go look at Tavares and go, I'm better than him. Yeah, but how could it not? I know. It was human nature.

It was just a domino disaster. It was human nature. And then Mitch Marner followed and said, listen, that guy's at 11. Austin's at 12 or 11.6. I'll take a million less than that guy, but I'm not worth anything less. And that was after.

There's no doubt that that. Right. I mean, it's why things are as challenging as they are is that those contract negotiations did not go well. We should probably take a break. We'll do it after. We'll do it in the second hour. You guys want to check in with Luke?

He said he'd join us. Let's take a break and then we'll call Luke. Okay, you heard Sammy. Plenty of still chew on here as we get right into it on The Real Kipper and Bourne Show, back after these words. on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Real Kipper and Born on Sportsnet 590 The Van. We assume everybody's gone out of Scotiabank Arena after lockout uh cleanup clean out day for the toronto maple

leaves let's find out if luke fox is uh still hanging out there did you pitch a tent there by any chance oh my god that was long i put in a shift boys i'm still here my because i gotta write a story now my work's just starting um but, you know what? I've never been part of one that's taken that long. Really tense and interesting times here at Leafs headquarters. Okay, so before we get into anything with the players, we heard from Sheldon, we heard from Kyle. They didn't go up together, which suggests that there's some separation there.

And we know Brendan Shanahan didn't speak today. And we expect to hear from him at some point, maybe later on this week or next week, depending on how quickly they sort things out or want to make announcements. What did you get out of Sheldon and Kyle today? Well, the biggest thing by far is just how emotional Kyle Dubas was today and how much of a toll this whole thing is

taking on him i i mean it kind of blew my mind i thought you know he was getting he was getting kind of choked up at times talking about his family and how taxing it's been and how he needs to really put their priorities uh first before he makes any decision whether he wants to be back with the maple leafs that idea of him wants to be back with the Maple Leafs. That idea of him, you know, jumping ship to the Pittsburgh Penguins, you can forget that. He said he doesn't want to be anywhere else because he doesn't want to put his family through it. Like he doesn't want to make his wife and his young children go through a move this

offseason. So he needs to do some soul searching, find out if it's worth it to keep doing this job. Then he has to figure out, even if he wants to do this job, what they want to offer him. And he has to meet with ownership and Brendan Shanahan. So there's a lot to be sorted out here. Another big thing is he didn't give Sheldon Keefe an endorsement, but didn't say that he was the wrong man either. And he didn't give Sheldon Keefe an endorsement, but didn't say that he was the wrong man either.

And he didn't give the core of this team an endorsement. And that is a very first. Like, I thought it was really telling that he said there's a, he's learning there's a line between belief and rigidity. Luke, if he did, we'd laugh him out of the building. If he did give anybody an endorsement, you know that. Yeah, but I believed it. I believe the way he said it, though, that, you know, he he looked at the Florida Panthers and he said they took their time, waited till July, but then made a blockbuster trade, took two core pieces off their team.

And now they're farther in the playoffs than they were president's trophy winning team and he he you know suggested that that's the kind of move that he would have to be open to so you know in soaking all this in you know kip and i are doing our best to sort of read between the lines you know what's negotiation What's protecting yourself from looking hypocritical later? Who comes back? Who comes back? Like is Kyle, if Kyle's back, do you think he sticks with Sheldon or do you think he does make a big trade here? You cannot have everyone back the same way, and I'm trying to make sense.

Who looks like the odd man out? Yeah, I agree with you. I think there's no way you can just run it all back. It's gotten, you know, seven times. It's getting a little silly, right? Yes. So who knows? I did find it very interesting that Austin Matthews was so upfront

about wanting to come back and wanting to get the deal done in the summer before next season started. You know, he could very well have played it a little more politically and said, well, you know, the season just finished and I need some time to think and talk to my agent or talk to my family. But he was saying, like,

my intention is to re-sign here. So, you know, the fans who want Austin Matthews back, I think that's a great sign. But he also talked about how close he is with Dubas. So if it's not Dubas negotiating that contract, I think that will raise more questions. He loves the culture Dubas has created here. And pretty much everyone said they wanted the core back.

No one said, this isn't working. Maybe we do need changes. Like Nylander's on board. Mitch Marner, I think, is afraid of getting traded at this point. He said that this is the team he dreams of finally breaking through with and winning. I think the core needs to be cut into just for a different look. I think they need to spend a greater portion of their money on the blue line. I don't think Jake McCabe's the top four guy.

I mean, you're always pinching pennies on the blue line. I don't think Jake McCabe's the top four guy. I mean, you're always pinching pennies on the blue line, and that doesn't mean those aren't good talents that you're trading away, but I think you have to explore ways, get creative. There's other teams that aren't happy with where they finished. I think it's time to do some serious wheeling and dealing. Maybe it's just the 40 years of being around this that has me the way I am.

But I heard another negotiating ploy out of Austin Matthews today. I mentioned it on Kyle, you know, playing the I got to talk to my family card. I heard Austin today, if I'm reading between the lines, saying I'm signed to a deal July 1st or I'm not talking about it the rest of the year. Well, it's going to be fascinating. Did you hear that? No, I don't understand that. I need an extension. I'm not going through the whole thing all year long.

I see what you mean. Right? You either sign me July 1st or we'll talk to you at the end of the season. But I think they would be happy to sign him just because guys like this don't come around.

And you know what? It was a small thing, but it was something I noticed is that a lot of the guys came out wearing whatever. They're whatever clothes, right? They're designer label hoodies or whatever.

And Austin Matthews came out and did his presser in a Leafs hoodie and a Leafs hat. I think that was maybe some subtle message sending there. Like, I'm a Maple Leafs still, and I want to resign here. Is there a sense that he may consider leaving a lot of money on the table so he can go get a legitimate winger, left winger,

and not put it all on matthew nice next year i don't know what the track record of these guys is not to take discounts so i'm not gonna i'm not gonna jump to that conclusion unfortunately but you know what he can't take the max like i feel like the playoff success hasn't been there. He's coming off, you know, a good year, but a down year. One assist in five games. Yeah. That doesn't set you up to blow it out of the waters. But it's still going to be a big number.

Two or just that one? I'm talking about a team that finished 19 points behind you in the regular season. Yeah, that one that one doesn't matter the first one when i when i lose to a team that needs pittsburgh to lose the last game of the season he snuck in it's just you don't get number one centermen who are capable of scoring 60 goals right you just don't get them so when you have one you you pay them yeah it'll be interesting no question about that

that's a uh you know one of the things that kind of hangs over and then the dominoes start to fall and he's you know he dubas basically said that he would take calls on everyone you make calls make calls on everyone well you heard you heard everyone aka those four guys weigh in on things today what were your impressions from what tavarez said from what nylander said um and marner i think we've got a sense from from matthews what did the other three say about their interest and likelihood of sticking around they all want to stick around i mean why why wouldn't you like you see the way these guys are treated like it is first class from the training staff to the meals, to the hotels, to how the coach is fairly, at least publicly,

the coach is very gentle to them. The general manager is this loving, caring, let's create a really inclusive, nice culture, keep our stars happy. It is a very comfortable place to play. That's not good. You just can't win that's the only problem though is it's it's so comfortable that you you don't win they haven't yet i agree but anyway what they were saying was they all want to stay um you know they like it here whether that

whether that leads to winning that's the that's-dollar question. You make a ton of money. You don't have to win. There's no accountability. Of course. Of course you love it. Can you add accountability when you have the same people? No. No, it's over. That's it.

You had your chance. Now you need to make changes. Somebody's got to go. One of the four got to go. I agree. In terms of accountability there, Justin, there was very little talk. Ryan O'Reilly mentioned it.

Like, I needed to create more. But there was very little talk of I needed to score more or we needed to do better. There was talk of Bobrovsky today. There was talk about scoring chances today. And it's like, fans don't want to hear that stuff right now. No, Sammy's shaking his head behind the glass. Like, that's the last thing people want to hear again is,

we had good lucks, didn't go, it didn't fall for us. Bob made a bunch of saves. It's, you know, it's kind of a nauseating idea. And so this is my point about Keefe in that, you know, some to establish accountability is going to be hard, right? Because if you have some, these guys have been here so long, anyone coming in is going to feel new. To wield authority is really hard, right?

To say, to suddenly become this hardline guy, but maybe you need some of that. This is where I think Kyle can talk himself into an extension. This is where he can talk everyone into bringing Sheldon Keefe back, is that I understand now I can't win with this group, and I will make the significant changes. Give me one more chance for change. And this is where it comes in.

All right, Luke, we're going to let you go, pal. Go get some rest, okay? Okay. Take care, guys. Thanks for joining us, Luke. Sportsnet.ca. So, listen, it would be significant enough to not make everybody feel like it's going to be the same old, same old next year. So I believe that's why I think Kyle's coming back.

That's why I think Sheldon's coming back and they will get another crack at it, but it will come with conditions. You're not asking Kyle to make changes. You're telling him you need to fix one of four problems. Well, then we are tap dancing around the obvious question. Since it's not Nylander, we're talking about Matthews coming back. Yeah. It's Marner and Nylander. Yeah, that's right. And I think it should be Marner.

Yeah. Two years left. He will bring you the best value. Yeah, I know, but I was supposed to say that part. No. No, I am. I'm older than you. I know more than you.

You definitely do. Do I shock you? Yes. Floored. I almost swore. Yes, i'm floored to hear you say that after this year of you know i know how much you love marner it's not working it's not working and i'll tell you another thing that doesn't work matthews and marner does not work they can produce but there's no real chemistry there i see a guy in the last time i see a guy that has to work way too hard i see a guy that for a guy that scores 100 points that is responsible like

he is defensively always being the third man a guy high always the first four checker or the first forward back uh even sometimes they give up those breakaways. You see Marner flying into the net because he's come back so hard. It's just, it's, I have not seen true ownership between Matthews and Marner for the Toronto Maple Leafs in the last five, six years. I think it's really strange.

They stuck with them. You know, they scored seven goals in two straight games, which I know everyone's heard a billion times, but they stuck with that pair when it wasn't happening for them. Not a lick. And so I don't know if they were saying to those guys,

we're going to show you, we're going to give you every chance to do it together. And if you can't, then maybe this is it. So Kip, this is where, because I was planning on saying the point that you just made. Here's why i think that makes the most sense you mentioned it fetches you the most in return yes easily the highest value but there'd be a lineup there'd be a bidding war right for for uh mitch marner the

other part of that is that nylander is going to cost as much as Mitch Marner in a year. He's going to get nine and a half, 10, Mitch is making 10, six or whatever it is, 10, nine. Like, you know, he's getting close to that. So there's no doubt Marner is a better player than Nylander. If you got to pay him the same anyway, give me two years of Mitch every time. And Nylander, frankly, if you're the Leafs,

you're pretty okay with the way he took strides. I understand he still has his defensive whatever, but he took some postseason strides where he showed when they couldn't create offense, he was the only guy who could create his own shot. So it makes the most sense. Three, four pieces for Mitch Marner. You go to Arizona and you say,

I want Keller and Cooley and a first and I don't know. And then you get cap space too. And you can do something else. So what you're telling me is I got to get back in my fake trade lab. That's actually the highlight of our show this year, I think. Just think about now the feeling of next September. And listen, in a perfect world, you do keep Mitch, but you can't. And with an extra year, two years,

it's a different ball game than it would be for Nylander or even Austin. And yeah, if Austin didn't want to be here, now you're forced into a situation. But if he wants to be here, then you're going to work that out. You're going to find a number. You hope that you don't blow your brains out because that'll kill you. It'll kill the organization moving forward. Here's the other one that you got to act on quickly is, again,

July 1st is the date. Yeah. Mitch Marner goes to a no trade. Full no trade. Full no trade July 1st. You got to trade him before. I mean, so this is getting real fast, which is why the Dubas keeping him makes more sense

than bringing in a new guy and being like, this is Debbie from accounting and this is Todd. Here's your desk. Trade Mitch Marner. You know? Wow. Oh my God. Yeah. Go

send him to New York. Get Keandra Millerer and plus plus i am floored excuse me i'm floored i never thought you'd i never thought that this would be listen i don't i'm a huge mitch marner fan i love him but it ain't working here it's not working here and if if you've loved Austin Matthews and you've shown him more love than you've ever shown 16 ever. For sure. Okay?

No question. We know. The media love him. You guys love him. I look at him sometimes like that guy couldn't lead a two-car parade. But that's okay. You're going to keep keep him i've never heard that that's pretty good thing i just think he i i i'm flabbergasted i don't think

i want to trade but i would agree with borny on willie it just seems like the easiest one but there is a chance come september if there's no 16 in your lineup, you're going to look at that team and go. Tough to be better. I'm not sure you're better. I mean, playing 24 minutes a night, killing penalties. You're not going to be better if you trade any of them. The hope is that in playoffs, you're better equipped.

You're more well-rounded in the ways that help you win in the postseason. There's no guarantee you are, but, you know, there's no reason to assume the worst. I just don't. It's such a scary thing. Trading him is a horrifying thing. Trading Marner. Yeah, this is the thing, though.

You're sitting here with all. Sammy, you cannot come back. Kyle, Sheldon, and Brandon cannot come back with this same group. It's over. And frankly... There's going to be some really upset people. A lot of them are stroking six-digit numbers for boxes down at the Scotiabank Arena. And frankly, I don't know that trading Nylander even moves the needle for people in a way.

The core is still Matthews and Marner. You can talk about the core. The two guys are the most important to the team that are Matthews and Marner. Yeah, and then you might have to suck up Tavares another year, but you're burying him next year. This is his last year to hang around. You want to stick him on the fourth line?

You can start making his life miserable if he doesn't want to move out. For that last year. For that last year. Yeah. But he's done. He commented today. Do we have him on play in the wing?

We do have that. Yeah, play. Do you want to play that or do you want to continue this conversation? I don't know. What did you get out of that? Out of what? Tavares.

I was just going to say that he was willing to adjust his game and move to the wing and do what they ask of him to stick around. I know. Listen, Tavares was about the first four years. It was. It was about hitting it during that window where they didn't hit right and now you're going huh and now it's tough you cannot have tavaris second line centerman next year yeah in the playoffs it's can't no can't it's it's as ridiculous as playing mark giordano

78 games averaging 19 and a half minutes a night. And then you put your surprise face on when his wheels fall off in April. And I warned you. I told you guys. I'm taking that L. I told you guys. I'll give you the W on Gio. Did I not talk about Gio at the very beginning?

Only since the day they acquired him. Only since then. Yeah, you got that one. So that's what you, like, why, and even, like, I'm watching, you know, McDavid and Dreisaitl last night, and it's like, how much can you lean on? How much can you lean how how can you how much can you lean on these guys like there's you're just ringing it and there's nothing coming out this is you know you're just talking about matthew's number dry saddles last four games zero zero one assist zero

dash four last night and personally responsible for a couple against it's like just nothing left in the tank when there's not. And even Mitch, you know, like there's some nights we talked about it. It's like, why are you playing him 27 minutes, 29 minutes? It's like it's a, you know, I know you need three or four minutes in OT, but that number shouldn't be there. And he's not 200 pounds either. He's buck 60 soaking wet.

Kipper, we had that conversation in the regular season so seven or eight times so now the checking gets quadrupled in the playoffs he's got no room and he doesn't really have any pushback and and then tavaris tavaris didn't have any legs either you know tavaris when when he's got some rest you can actually see he's got legs he beats people one on one it's a difference and he can kind of protect it a little bit and he's got that area of six or eight feet around the net and he actually looks physically strong yeah but when he doesn't it's like watching uh wheels fall off uh an 18 rig so i i look just quickly i'm writing a bit about this tomorrow um how the core fours average shot distance like how far away they get

shots in the regular season the playoffs and how it changes matthews goes from 24 to 28 feet away from the net so he's shooting from farther out because he can't kind of get into the same areas um kneelanders 28 to 30 jt is like 16 to 18 and mitch goes from 30 to 40 feet out like all of them can't get there at the end and whether it's no legs tired no aggressiveness too much whatever no it's skill skill skill skill there's nothing in the core four that said anyone's going to run over anybody yeah yeah and you know the guys that i think of when i think of what this Leafs team need are not, I'm not saying go away from skill, but it's guys who have this, like, tenacity. Yanni Gord, Kevin BX had talked about him on TV.

Yanni Gord is this guy, he will fight you. He will, he's passionate, desperate, whatever. See Jonathan Marcheseau last night for Vegas? You know, he's kind of, you know, I mean, rat in a good way, the way he just keeps coming, keeps coming. They don't have that type of guy that can score on top of the tenacity and i know they're not easy to come by but like they're missing that element of the guys who play big minutes call it anger call it desperation call it whatever i'm not saying the guys don't try they do it's they're

just not wired that way i'll go another I'll go a step further on that. Matthews looks like he goes out of his way to avoid that. Yeah. Okay. He is the least confrontational number one centerman I've ever seen in my life. Yeah. This guy goes out of his way to avoid it. Scrums, you know, the ragdolling, you know, the not fighting back.

He'd be the last guy to go into a pile and rescue you off the floor. He got into a slobber knocker with Stamkos in the first round. That was a hell of a bout. That's so on him. That was a hell of a bout. You're right, though. I don't disagree. That's an issue for me. At some point.

It's an issue. I've wondered if he, as as he gets older because i felt this way as a player got a little bit more like okay you know like i'm kind of sick of this and at some point you got to punch someone in the beak it hasn't happened and maybe it never will that's an issue yeah in itself it's an issue for sure it's an issue for sure and it'll be the criticism of him until his team's win or if in a series like this they lose in five games and he's got six goals you banking eight years on that moving forward six years i am yes oh that's maybe 120 million dollars will help him punch somebody in the face no i don't think so maybe i think he's just the way he is and he ain't changing and that's fine this is seven years it's not fine well you can't win with that it's not perfect you can't win with that you can't win with that look at people who win stanley cups kip who tell me who

i don't phil kessel's a stanley cup champion yeah with sid yeah malkin okay you're allowed to have other good players. You can't when they don't lead. When they are the top of the pyramid, you can't win. I don't know. You see guys like the St. Louis Blues win with Ryan O'Reilly's winning Lady Bing trophies along the way. And Shen. Braden Shen would run over. He's in the surrounding people I'm talking about.

He's Brad May. He'll punch his mother for a playoff win bring me brad may on the leafs hey austin won't do that willie won't do that tavaris won't do that and that's not mitch's game so you're going to trade mitch you're going to get your good value in and you still got 34 who avoids controversy on the ice. Confrontation. The playoffs are nothing but confrontation, by the way. Nothing but constant.

Every shift. Verbally, physically, mentally, emotionally. He's second on the team in hits in playoffs. He's not non-physical. He's leading the team in shots and hits and defense oh yada yada he's not a non-contributor at times disinterested this year ah that's retro rich that's hindsight i don't think that's true that's did he look like he was having fun at least with willie at least with willie he can look you in the eye, down 3-0 and say, this is fun.

Okay? And listen, whether you like it or not, I give him a ton of respect because I believe he believes that. It's not an act. I believe he believes that. And he played actually like he still was having some fun out there and then doing some Williey things and it actually helped the team i watched 34 i'm like does that guy even like being there right now didn't look

fun didn't look fun at all okay and you want to make him the highest paid player in the league right again are you sure are you sure to clarify yes all right it's not an easy decision for me. I'll tell you that. So you just let him walk? No. You trade him. Just could move him to L.A. So you think, so let me ask, let's play out this.

Bring back Trevor Moore. Can we play out this scenario then, Kipper? Yeah. You trade Austin Matthews. I think you should look at it, yes. Okay, okay. And you have Mitch Marner as your quote-unquote best player. Do you have a better chance to win the playoffs? No, you're going to...

He gets staffed around in players? You're going to replace him. But no one's going to replace Austin... No one that you trade for is going to be better than Mitch Marner. So Mitch Marner is automatically going to be your best player. And can you win with him as your best player? I don't think so either. But you can also turn matthew's pieces

into somebody else to support him you're gonna go find another you're gonna go find another guy you may not get him maybe till march yeah i don't know i'm just not i'm not letting matt will you guys be okay with what kyle dubas has done if it's just willie if it's matthews it's marner it's tavara's willie's gone to carolina for brett pesci and a first just yeah it depends what you bring back yeah carolina would take me on god when willie scored that goal on friday night i thought you think carolina's gonna pay him 10 10 and a half i think carolina's a team that would do it they're all analytically driven and and they'll pay 10 and a half? Well, the patch ready, they had him at seven, whatever, and he's... But that was off

of a last year deal. Right, but he'll be gone. That money's free. Yeah. So they have... And they'll add two or three million to it? That's a lot. Maybe two. But yeah, I mean, I could see it. Of all teams, I mean, who else is out there that could? You're talking about

Columbus or... All right. We should probably take a break and i should probably get in our playoff picks because we've been bad and not done them because we've been yelling at each other for an hour and a half which has been excellent but i should get the playoff picks in before we get to more leaf stuff so um time for playoff picks presented by5. Visit the app for the latest odds. There is a Game 7 tonight in hockey. Hockey is still happening, and Seattle and Dallas play a very exciting Game 7 tonight. They're a pretty tasty underdog in this game. Plus 180, some value.

They've already won a game on the road in a Game 7 against Colorado Stanley Cup champions. So if you're interested in that, it could be something for you. Hurricanes, pretty heavy favorites in that series. And I think probably for the better, like what do you think is better for Leaf fans? That the cats go in there and beat them or Carolina runs them over? Have they taken any joy in Montreal going to the cup final

or Tampa going to the cup final or tampa going to the cup final after beating them in the past has that helped i don't know i'm gonna say they just want florida to lose right yeah i think i want florida to lose i think they just book a tea time and don't look don't look yeah i bet you the old viewership for this one from the leaf fans will probably not be um so the carolina hurricanes to win this series four 4-1, which I feel like could happen. I really do feel like they're going to run them over. Just a different animal. Wow.

I thought the Leafs were a little lifeless throughout this series. Like, you look at that team, they're hot, they're well-coached. Plus 450 for that. And just checked in on the Conn Smythe. Hold on. It's not plus 450 for Carolina to win their series. Yes. 4-1.

Oh, 4-1 is a correct score okay okay okay yeah you were running to bet 365 to bet that i was about to do that and the last thing i have for you just checking in on the con smith if dallas gets by seattle tonight they're as live as anyone obviously right to go through still rupe hints who is second in the nhl and scoring right now is 20 to 1 for the colin smith at this very moment so if you think dallas is going to win tonight might want to put some on that and joe pavalski also who's had a great playoff run is 25 to 1 so that's a little there's a little narrative playoff writers you know that's a it's a good narrative maybe so those are a couple things for you and that that was Playoff Picks presented by Bet365.

Visit the app for the latest odds. Have you ever seen anyone drop so significantly from a consummate race than Leon Dreisaitl? Oh, my God. Yeah, that didn't go well. What a start to the playoffs. I guess, you know, the other team has a say. And just if you tailor your game to shutting down certain guys, what a start to the playoffs. I guess, you know, the other team has a say in just, if you tailor your game to shutting down certain guys,

chop them in the wrist a couple of times. And it's hard for two guys to offensively carry a hockey team. And they like Connor was unbelievable and he did it, but dry side will just slow down. And who could blame him? He was scoring four goals a game for a stretch. He couldn't piss a drop no he had nothing left okay all right take a quick break we're back for more real kipper and born thanks for watching thanks for listening give us a thumbs up if you've enjoyed the show so far i don't know

how much jb or i have but uh we'll see if you have i'm having fun we're back after the break. This is Real Kipper and Born on Sportsnet 590 The Van. Why does today feel like Off the Rails Friday? It's Monday. I don't know what time we're in, what time we're out. This is the Autobahn today. It's Tuesday, Lemon. It's Tuesday. It feels like Friday.

What a week. What a week. It's Tuesday. Can we shorten this week up? Yeah, let's just go to an hour or so. Okay. I had a couple housekeeping notes I wanted to bring up with you. Because we didn't talk about the game at all on Friday.

No, we were supposed to. No, but that was understandable. The coach talked and Dubas talked and we screamed at each other for an hour and a half, which was great. But I do want to ask your take on the Morgan Riley disallowed goal. Oh, my God. It was like 100 years ago. I know. It's still worth talking about.

Okay. Leafs fans are going to hang on to it for sure. The same way that, you know, the pick and all. They can, but. Just clear no goal, right? Listen. Yes. Did we get one definitive picture? We can, but... Just clear no goal, right? Listen. Yes? Did we get one definitive picture?

I bet my mind into thinking one was definitive. No. The one from Center Ice that got blown up. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yep. The same one that reminds me of being in history class in grade seven, watching a National Geographic movie that it's like the same blurry picture.

It's like when someone shows you a video of a concert they were at on their Motorola Razr. Sasquatch? Just Bigfoot? Can you give me one picture in the year 2023 of a puck over a line that doesn't look like you licked my glasses? Okay. Please. And if you can't, it's not far enough in the net. Can I ask you, though?

I think it was in, by the way. Yes. We all think it was in. Yeah. But we don't have the evidence. And you cannot do that because now you have all watched John Shannon at Sportsnet like 10 years ago do parallax image. Oh, yeah. That's what you saw from that center ice angle blown up is the space between the painted line and then the ice thickness right there there's sure the ice is white or clear and

so you're looking this way you're not looking at that's what you saw from a camera at center ice and you cannot decide a goal or not from that and they haven't in the past it is crazy and i know this conversation is beaten to death but you know tennis a very clear ball hit here, here's the line. Soccer has ball hit here, here's the line. Hockey just needs puck is here, here's the line. Technology. Exactly. So go to tennis and go ask them,

how much did you pay for all of that? How much R&D did you put into that? And then go ask the NHL's budget to go do all of that. And they're like, we'd rather flip a coin. They've been flipping, boy. It's just a cost issue. They're not ready to spend that type of money. And they have tried.

Trust me, they've sawed pucks in half. Yeah, there's a chip in the puck currently. And, like, the technology and what it takes. And then they've also gone to the guys and said, hey, shoot with these pucks. Yeah. And they're like, these pucks suck. There is a chip in the current puck, though, Kip. And it just doesn't do what they need it to do, I guess.

What does it do? So they can do, like, a little. A tracking for where it is. It would be a different chip though i think and it would be different technology and it would mean uh the integrity of the puck would have to change even more you gotta figure something so and one last housekeeping note and i don't even know before you move on i want to say morgan riley cutting that to the net was my favorite play of the whole playoffs even though it doesn't count like big, big moment, 2-1, momentum. He sticks out a leg and takes it across the net.

That's when good things happen. That's my Don Cherry moment for the day. I just, I have to bring this up because I'm taking a bullet for my Leaf fan sisters and brothers. The amount of messages I've gotten about Callie Yarncroft's stick in overtime. And I understand that, you know,arncroft's stick in overtime. And I understand that, you know, we gotta do this in big spots, but, you know, I would point you to the

pick play and them calling that in a rather big spot last year. It's a pretty egregious miss in overtime that led directly to a goal. This is it, Kev. I know. I know. We've all seen it. We've all seen it. And I will say this.

Okay, we have our group chats, right? Yeah. Okay. You sent that when you really noticed it. I didn't even send it. Who sent it? It was Borny. When did you send it?

Today. This morning. Yeah. Okay. Today. Yeah. It happened Friday. Oh, I know.

So my point is that at the time, in the moment, it's not egregious. It looks like anything else that's going out there, and it's like the wild, wild west. Mm-hmm. Okay. Chris Cutbert and Craig Simpson are two of the best. We've said that all year. They didn't see it. Listen, I watched 300 Angles and Re year they they they didn't see it listen i watched 300 angles and reflows i didn't see it i think nobody saw it okay so how how was an official are they

gonna just all of a sudden now call that it it's in it because you're standing on the ice and you're if you if you look at where they are it was so well concealed and hidden. You have to go find that angle days later to go, oh, this is really bad. In the moment, for an official to see that, call it in that moment, highly unlikely. They'd have to be good at their job. No, bionic eyes. I mean, it totally depends where you're standing, but like it's egregious. It's just, Liz, you're right, concealed well. well really concealed well and who would ever thought did you care about goodness would knock you out how about him screaming in poor old wall's face oh my god any thoughts about

that yeah they just beat him in a series it felt great who cares yeah listen to me just my natural instinct is like yay for my team and like yay go hug my guys i find it really weird to have a triumphant career moment and be like ha ha you know in someone else's face like i would do that in a heartbeat go suck eggs buddy go have go uh you're done in defense in defense of radko gudas which is something i never thought i'd say the last thing you can look at playoff hockey and say oh there's a lot of classy moves out there. His back was, he was facing him because he had just, you know, grabbed onto Yarncrock's stick and rode him into the net

so that Nick Cousins had a wide open lane. But he didn't have his face, like, that was his first reaction was, like, with his back to everybody else reacting. So he just screamed. I hate the guy. All I saw there was a freight train and gudas going back on yarn croc who looked like he could he might have needed a diaper all i know is yarn croc is back there because yarn croc got eaten up and spat out by gudas

i am not playing the radco gudas is good game never that's not a freight train yeah okay if i'm if i was a crumb if i if you will a crumb bum like okay and how about the lily pad well that's that's okay if we're gonna talk about that play the opposing crease in overtime that's where it's where are you going where are you going i Where are you going? I'm going to join a rush now with Sam Lafferty. It's not even Austin and Mitch. It's Lafferty. It's Achari. Was it Achari?

It was Achari and Riley. Achari and Riley. Why didn't you bring me back to that moment? And then Lilligreen goes in there and he – Ran into a teammate. Like a bowling ball. Yeah. But you know what?

You're on the ice in overtime. I'm going to leave Yarncroft back there. I'm covered. Because I got Yarncroft back there. Can I ask you guys around the room here? How many people thought that three-on-two going back the other way as soon as that puck went away from Lilligren was going in the net? I did. Lays of hands?

I did. You just knew it. Done. They had too much time and space. Backing up. Yarncroft would have backed up any further. He would have fell in Lake Ontario. Eerily, eerily similar to Jeremy Roenick's

overtime winner against the Leafs where he came down off the wing after Darcy Tucker smoked Sammy Kaepernick. Very similar. That's Yarncroft and Hall all year. Do we not go, okay, why are you pinching there? Like, why do you get the green light?

What makes you think you're going to go be a hero right now? You're a defenseman. Do you think they'll re-sign Hall? No. No, don't. You put those teeth away, Mourney. And that's where Sheldon never could get them to just be so disciplined. No, but he doesn't want them to.

He wants them to do that. Yeah, so he can lose in overtiming in a game five at home. This is the thing. It hasn't worked. Why does he feel like he's got a green light to go? Why? Because his coach has told them that i want you to play down the walls that's higher yes don't play any different keep

going adam you know but that was such a bad read just never had any hope no never had any hope and i never did either but justin hall ends up getting back in the lineup after scratch. You got beat by Gutis and Mark Stahl. Yeah. And got to give Mark Stahl credit. Guy was good. No, super smart. Didn't make a ton of mistakes. Straight lines.

For the record, yeah. And when there was any pressure, they never even iced it. It was just like six feet, eight feet. Controlled exits. I know it sounds stupid, whatever, but like the Leafs would have like 90 a game and the Panthers would have like 40 because they were just like, we're not controlling any of these exits. You just take it.

Someone else figured this out. But I will say, if you sit back and look at this series, hard to be critical of the Leafs D or really even goaltending as a whole. Florida scored 2.8 goals a game. Like they didn't light them up. They didn't create a ton. The only guy who scored two goals on the Panthers was Nick Cousins. How about, like, Kachuk?

He didn't have a goal. No. You lose to him. In five games. And Barkov had one. In five games. Five games, Barkov gets one, Kachuk gets zero, Brandon Montour has one point.

You lose in five? What would you bet against that? So, to my earlier point, just take out Bobrovsky and switch goalies. What's the series at? Yeah, exactly. And I think Keith doesn't want to look like a fool by saying that, but he's like, oh, he's like. We didn't even get into, oh, we got the rest of the week.

Bunting, Riley. We played one clip from a player today. We got more. And we solved nothing. Oh, I mean, if I do say so myself, that might have been one of the best shows of the year. We got lots of work to do to fix this thing. So we need other people's misery to have one of the best shows of the year.

Sammy, shame on us. Welcome to Leaf fandom, brother. Shame on us. The whole machine is powered by tears. Hey, you know what? It's a pain-powered program. I don't think the show sucked as bad as I thought it would. Oh, my God, fellas.

We got to do it again tomorrow? Oh, yeah. I'm exhausted. Me too. Going to the Jays game tonight. Oh, are you? Nice. My son's got baseball to the Jays game tonight. Oh, are you? Nice. My son's got baseball.

First of the year tonight. We're moving on. You're going? Yeah. I'm all... I don't got nobody to go. You're lucky, man. No, I'm not going to the game.

I'm going to my son's baseball. Oh, okay. You're going to turn him into a pitcher? That's where all the money is, buddy. A lot of pressure. I don't know. Turn him into Otani. I don't like pressure in this town.

All right. Our thanks to Luke Fox, I guess. That's it. You think we have one of the best shows of the year and we only had Luke Fox on? All right. Thanks, Luke. Give yourself a pat.

All right. We're back again tomorrow. Enjoy your night, everybody.