Real Kyper & Bourne - Maurice Lights a Fire, Leafs Lack Desire

Episode Date: March 30, 2023

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee begin with a look back on the Maple Leafs' overtime defeat at the hands of the Panthers last night and breakdown the key moments that led to the loss. Later on, we hear a fiery quote from Florida's Head Coach Paul Maurice on today's "Kyper's Clippers", before looking deeper into Toronto's powerplay alignment and Sheldon Keefe's lineup management. Next up, NHL Network analyst Mike Rupp joins the fellas to add to the Paul Maurice conversation, before chatting about tough love from coaches, the tightly contested Metropolitan Division, and shares a story about Pat Burns from his early days with the Devils (41:20). To wrap up, The Athletic's Joshua Kloke weighs in on if Matthew Knies can make an impact in the Blue and White this season, how the team might deploy him heading into the postseason, and outlines the other prospects in the Leafs' system (01:07:13). The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

This is Real Kipper and Born on Sportsnet 590 The Van. It is Real Kipper and Born special edition, early edition to Major League Baseball. We've got first pitch in a little over four hours. Sammy, we just followed Jeffff blair and kevin barker barks tells me he's the only one with a set of cojones that doesn't want to suck up to the mother ship around here and says the blue jays will be lucky if they get out of the first round of the playoffs how's that well i've i mean i've uh i've heard that somewhere before what do you think sammy uh last night on leafs talk i picked the toronto blue jays to beat the new york mets in seven games to win

the world series i love it and i'm not wearing a jay's hat on my head or anything so there's no homerism behind that pick but boys listen jays are good they were good they were good last year they improved in some spots they need to improve in. They still have an elite lineup. Good defensively. Better bullpen. A lot of the shortcomings in that horrific ending to the season last year were kind of shored up. I mean, if Berrios can find it, too.

If he can come back and be decent for him, that would go a long way. Because they've got a few guys you like before him. I'm a little concerned about it. A little mirror to the Toronto Maple Leafs for the Toronto fans where it's like just score goals, score runs. Don't worry about defense. Let the offense clean up the defense. Don't worry about the bullpen if you can just score.

Nah, that's the Leafs of old. I don't know if that's the Jays of old or not. Is that the Leafs of old? I think so. The bullpen. Top five defensive team. Bullpen in baseball is literally the least predictable thing in the world. You break camp with seven or eight guys, and by the mid-May,

there's like seven new guys. Yeah, there's like seven new guys in there. So don't really bank on that, but yeah. And to be fair, that's what Barker did say. He said they'll be lucky to get out of the first round unless they make some additions to the bullpen that's the uh in which case i think you liked him a little more i just want to hang out in what center field for 20 bucks and eat a thousand loony dogs yeah is it loony dogs game one uh is it april 11th is that a tuesday drink

flat beer is that part of part of the stadium ready now? I don't know, really. I haven't seen a lot of updates, but I'm assuming it's going to be ready by April 11th. Or else they're going back to Buffalo like they did during the pandemic, which was not fun for anyone, I don't think. Other than the residents of the wonderful city of Buffalo that got to watch Major League Baseball.

We got a lot for Buffalo around here. Oh yeah, big time. Well, we're hoping that all our loyal uh watchers and followers are around this early for us today can i ask you guys a question please how thrown off by starting at noon were you guys today i can't believe we're on the air right now i walked out of that chit chat with a pal here and i was like wait we're on in 15 minutes i felt so this morning i had a tasting for little buddha our company that should make for a fun show yeah and which you own of course it just

dawned on me last night around 11 that oh my god is it home opener what does that do for us and it's like oh they told us last week we're gonna be on at noon kipper the last thing i said to you before i left this room i was like kipper don't forget buddy 12 to noon tomorrow i'm proud to tune you are completely useless let me tell you something we love you on the show but you're you're producing starting to really suck the last little while i go to him yesterday in between a break remind me to tell everybody that that we're on at noon tomorrow. And what does he do after the show is, we forgot

to tell people we're on at noon tomorrow. I'm like, yeah, that's not great producing right there. Everybody's now on for sure. Everybody knows now. That's how word of mouth gets out quickly.

But no, it didn't help me that I had a tasting today and kind of buzzed right now. Oh, it's good feeling. I got Ryan Leslie going. No, I'm not as bad as Ryan Leslie in Boston. That's it. We've thrown that interview in the trash. Never to be heard again. No, no, no.

We're good. We're good. Good. Beautiful. All right. You know who was buzzing last night paul maurice oh boy that was one for the ages that was over the top what did you think i'm dying to hear what you thought of that so that was to make the leaf scored to make it 2-1 on a goal that was going to be disallowed he didn't care about the disallowed part. Yes.

It's the fact that we got off to a really good start. The first five minutes, they came out with purpose. They looked good. And to Paul's point on the rant was, why are we letting our foot off the gas pedal right now? And that should have been a 2-1 score for the Leafs. Yeah. And was it over the top, though, for you? Like, he didn't present it like you just said it.

He presented it with some words that... I had no problem with it at all. I thought it was a little bit much. A little excessive. I mean, he was not just saying, hey, we need to do better. He was calling his team words. I know Paul. I've known him since we played against each other in junior hockey.

And there are some guys that I could definitively tell you from my experience of being around the game that that's an act that is a little phony that's for the cameras that's for the press that's for that's there's motives behind that that was not paul maurice last night that was paul maurice maybe over the course of a week two weeks a month maybe the whole season of a level of frustration, knowing that you had a very good team, one that was supposed to be challenging for a Stanley Cup, fighting for their lives now to stay in a playoff race.

There was nothing manufactured out of that no except sheer emotion panic well whatever it is it was real yeah so if i really lose my mind on you and curse you out you'll be like ah it's authentic doesn't matter if it's over the top or not he called me a bunch of names but at least he meant it yes that's okay i so I don't actually have a problem with what Maurice did. I just thought it was like, whoa, like you're supposed to show, you're the leader, like guide the ship. So he loses his mind. Lomberg's on the bench like, yeah, yeah, coach.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's get him. Let's get him. And he comes out and runs the guy from behind and takes a penalty. I don't think that would have been the response from most of the guys like yours. It wasn't. Like in terms of.

Of, yeah, that's going to make us play harder. Right. No, I think it shows. When you see a side of somebody that you don't normally see. You know, they mean it. My first is like, well, this really means something to you right now. Yeah. Right. This is, I'm seeing your boiling point. is like, well, this really means something to you right now. Yeah. Right?

This is, I'm seeing your boiling point. I'm seeing you in a place I've never seen you before. That instantly grabs my attention more than anything else that you can do. Yeah. Outside of stabbing me or doing something unlawful. Yeah. No, but you're right.

And to your point, I think you could, maybe it didn't engender the response you wanted immediately, but the guys know, like, we're in one here. This is pivotal for the season. And so could it be that that ramped up their play for the rest of the game? You know, I don't know. The Leafs are still the better team, but they found a way.

All we know is Florida without two points last night, they're done. Done. They're done. Did it have an effect on the outcome? My guess is yes, it did. You know, it's one of those things. You do it if it works.

It was. Like, it's hard to say it had an outcome on the game because after he did it, they still played like crap for the rest of the game until they got a tip at the end of the game that goes in. It wouldn't exactly say it changed the way they played a whole lot. I thought they played better because I thought that slippage and the gift, the absolute gift. Hey, listen, Austin Matthews, been playing great. Get it?

Last night, great. Inexcusable to go offside there by austin matthews like nobody around you at all yeah you can't make sure you stay on side on that play austin really yeah that that to me was like just that that that showed for me that, yeah, they're not, last night bothered me last night, that game. I know everybody said, hey, we were great, first five minutes, yada. No, no, no, there's parts of me last night not really happy. That was one of those things.

Kipper, before we move on, do you want to listen to Maurice talk about? Yeah, let's go to Paul Maurice, and then we'll get into more specifics on the game. Yeah. Although it's not calculated. I was just honest. That was where I was at. If I could have yelled louder,

if I had found a way to be more profane than I was, I would have. I'm not gifted enough. I needed to channel my father, who's a gifted cursor. That was all I had. I was honest. That's how I had. I was honest. That's how I felt. What was the message?

Oh, you. Without the expletive, what was the message? There was nothing beyond the expletive. What were you seeing that led you to that? Oh, what you saw. Unless you're a Leaf fan, which everything was great. On the other side of that, no, I just had a – it was more of a cleanse for the coach, a cleanse.

I needed to. It was cathartic. Glad he's working through his own therapy session back there. You lose that game, anything you say after the game, anything you say from that point to end the season, it's over. It has no effect. You have hit the big red button. That was your last chance to at least strike a nerve with your players.

I thought it was mission accomplished. I think this Florida team is interesting. One stat, Dom LeCision had his Article 16 stats out. Very good stuff. One of the points he made that this Florida team has been without centerman Barkov, miss 15 games, Bennett missed 13 games.

They've rarely been in the same game together when they've had them both. They played at 101 point pace. They're like 30 and 18. They're a pretty good team when they have those guys, if they're healthy and this gets them into playoffs and Bob Browski makes a couple of saves, like Florida is a pretty good team. And so I get him being frustrated that a good team,

that season was just about to wash away. You know, I don't know that, again, it did seem excessive or whatever, but yeah, you win the game, you come out of it. It could be looked at as a turning point for him. And I do believe that you got one of the best goal scorers in the world and you let him get behind you that easily, that led to that goal. It's like even if he knew it was offside, it was going to come back.

The point was how can we be desperate for our lives and you let a guy like that get behind you that easily? 100%. And even after that mitch had a breakaway he gets in behind him like it wasn't a perfect game by florida by any stretch the other clip i wanted to play was maurice the the players win their clip and this is just a really interesting another maurice ism i guess if you will but it's really well done luke asked the question so we'll play that clip winning is one thing but the way you win tying it late

winning it over time dramatic fashion is this something that in your experience you can can lead this is something that can be a player's win because the coach had lost orbit about halfway through the second so the players got that's theirs they get to keep it and they get to say have you ever been a closed door meeting where you close the doors that you know the coach is not even allowed in the players go f that guy you know we're gonna do it for us you know to hell with him wow you know the keenan's some of his famous moments were like you guys stink i'm i'm out coach yourselves yeah and he just clam up behind the bench and everyone goes this is great and it'd be like it would be like a game of shinny like who's going now who's up like guys would raise their hand and go i'll take left wing this this

rotation i got left here okay uh who's got right you start coaching yourselves to render yourself pretty uh useless if you're mike keenan doingL. Yeah. Guys are calling themselves up like they just rented ice for an hour. I cut next. You're a fourth liner. Doug, sit down. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. That's funny.

All right. Let's get Sheldon Keefe on not closing out the Florida Panthers when he had a chance, and then we'll pick it up from there. Whether it's power plays or some of the chances we had a five-on-five, had opportunities to bury them and build the substantial lead, and we've seen this a lot, you know, where you let teams hang around

and they end up getting points from you. We've seen this a lot. He's so tired of it. Yeah. You know, the special teams, the power play in particular, really missed some opportunities to put that Panthers team away at some crucial times. You know, it didn't go in for them.

I don't know that they were terrible, but your special teams don't score in crucial situations. And then Geo takes that huge penalty, great penalty. An elite penalty. And they can't kill it off for them. So special teams let them down. Well, I think we'd be rem. And they can't kill it off for him. So special teams let him down. Well, I think we'd be remiss if we didn't give Lyon some credit. That was borderline the game of his life.

He was unbelievable for them in a big spot. Before we go there, I want to go back to what you just said. On this show, over the course of well over a year now. Power play. Well, hey, listen, they got the second best power play. It's right up there behind Edmonton's. This should be an awesome feeling. This is about the time, the last few years, where the power play takes a nosedive.

And I'm not saying that this is the start of any nosedive. No, they scored two against Nashville last game. But it's the start of the start. Yeah. They started last night 0 for 4. And didn't look that great. No. I remember one decent chance generated.

And this is coming off of me and you watching the Edmonton Oilers go into Vegas and go three for three and just bury them with their power play. Yeah. So what is the issue here? How do you, where is Florida on the penalty kill in the league? One of the worst. One of the worst. You're at home. You're facing a team that is on the outside looking into a playoff spot,

and they have one of the worst penalty-killing teams in the league. And you can't get one at home? What is – why? I mean, do you know how it is with power play? Sometimes, you know, you play well and it doesn't go in. I don't think that was the case last night. Like, I just didn't think that they generated a ton, were very threatening. I think you guys watch every game like I do.

I feel anecdotally like it's either really good or really bad. Yeah. Like, in terms of the looks they get. And, like, some nights it's just they're getting a million looks, the puck's going in, And then it feels like other nights they can't gain the zone. I don't know if that's just every team that's like that, but it just really feels like when it's not threatening,

like it was last night, it's just really not threatening. Like they can't get in a rhythm with it at times. I do have a thought on. We can, there's eight games left to go. And you can sit there and say, okay, they've got home ice advantage locked up against Tampa. There's no way they're going to blow that.

And everybody's just got to get their own way of getting ready. We had Craig Simpson talk about that and how each individual wants to go in feeling good. It is imperative that this power play in the next eight games gets its act together or else it's going to feel like four years in a row where it just kills them in the first round you know one thing i think looking at it like last night you had mitch on the right flank of morgan so he's a right shot guy on the right flank and he's taking passes up high morgan's walking the line sliding it back to mitch up high. Like Mitch is so good below the goal line. He's their top assist guy, you know, from the flank on the left side on down,

kind of in that little nook. It's a complete opposite area of the ice where I want him. He can control the whole power play from down there. Tavares pops for him. You know, it's, I don't know, like they seem very eager to be unpredictable in terms of who's where, but the structure is still the same. Sometimes it doesn't make sense yeah i i don't think that they i don't think they're very good passers on the power play they they go to their their their safety valves which is every time it

hits 44 stick you get stick handled three times i don't it's the elephant in the room it'll never be like edmontson's power play, right? It will never be like the greatest of all time. The best in the history of the league. But their, their strengths for me on the power play is when they do get pucks through. They, their second and third time chances are where they're very good. Once the play gets broken a bit. Once it gets broken a bit and there's a loose puck,

and they can pounce on pucks, and they've got quick sticks, and to me, Tavares is one of the best at it. Tavares on that six-foot radius in front of the net on the power play he's as good as anybody and and cookies he loves his cookies but if i see tavaris on the outside starting to handle the puck and passing it it's over okay his pucks die on his stick outside of that six foot radius i wonder with ryan o'reilly if you wouldn't have interest in creating two genuine units like take nylander off the top unit because nylander i don't know he's almost like superfluous to what they're trying to do sometimes we're gonna have a

conversation on that one too make him a feature piece of the pp2 with o'reilly but yeah i i think and it and we know morgan is just he's not not bouchard he's doesn't have that heavy threat back there but he's gonna have to find a way to get pucks i just want him to creating second and third chances in front of the net yeah i agree um there were a lot of positives for the leafs last night i I know you uh had some frustrations with it but I thought the Leafs you know they come out they're sloppy out of the gates really sloppy for two three minutes yeah and then they controlled the play they're in Florida's end for the next 30 minutes of the game uh obviously you know they're where the shots went a lot of the reason they were really good I thought their their depth guys were great. Aston Reese, Lafferty. The Zach Aston Reese game almost.

He almost had a Forsberg one-handed finish. I think we'll let Keith talk about it, and then we'll come off of it because he makes some good points here. Since the trade deadline and the times we've gone with 11 forwards, a guy like Aston Reese is playing more. Like I said, we're moving. We got a bottom five instead of a bottom six i said we're we're moving moving we got a bottom five instead of a bottom six and kind of moving those guys about and uh so i think he's gone on

the ice more he's found more of a rhythm but also i think as the trade deadline passes a guy like him really settles in we've been very clear with him about what our expectations are what we need from him i i think he's done a really really nice job here really and all over the course throughout the course of the month of march uh i've liked a lot of what he gave us crazy though even with that you know how much you think 11 forwards all these guys are going to play so much aston reese played 827 yeah and i'll be simmons played six minutes oh come playoffs actually he won't play that much more than that yeah six right they don't Simmons played six minutes. Come playoffs? Actually, he won't play that much more than that.

Six. Right? They don't generally. Their minutes will go down in the playoffs as you rely more on your stars. Yeah. They can't be doing seven and 11 because it puts too much pressure on the stars right now. Yeah. Listen. They're playing 24 minutes again last night. It was a borderline

close to meaningless game. And you have Matthews playing almost 24. You have Marner playing almost 25. We've talked about this I feel like we've talked about this a million times, but it's now becoming more and more apparent that they need to play them less. I just

like last night felt for me like the rhythm of 11 and 7 just sucked. I agree. Like, again, I thought the Leafs were good last night, but I don't think it's sustainable. Like, it's not a plan to me. No. And I think, you know, i thought sheldon keith struggled last night yeah not not one of his better efforts behind the bench what do you

think he struggled with finding the rhythm of his 70 and shen barely played shen barely played lilligren barely played lilligren was 10 minutes and Shen was 7.56. And again, the buildup for Lilligren and the eventual decision to keep Lilligren and get rid of Sandin. And we went through a time where we're like, wow, Lilligren's really kind of shaping up here for being a really important guy going into the playoffs here he's

gonna play like 20 minutes 22 minutes and now you watch last night and he's trying to fit him in he's trying to jam a square peg in a round hole with him last night and the icing on the cake for me is that it's late in the game, and now you have him out on the ice. That was the most confusing thing I've ever seen. Was it up 2-1 he was out there? Yes. He had 70.

And now. Wait, nine minutes all night. Now you're at a six on four and he's on the ice. So what you're telling me over the course of 58 minutes is that he is your second best D to put out on the ice at the most critical time in the game. I'm presuming this shift before must have been like McCabe and Brody were like, yeah, tired or something. But still you got geo, you got Hall. Like, there are other options for sure. Even Shen's like a defense first guy.

Yeah. His last three games, he's played 10-52, 11-39, 10-07. If you're telling me that you have him on the ice because it's more important to build blocks towards the playoffs and the end result is it doesn't matter you got the end result maybe maybe i could see some reasoning in that yeah but watching him out there in the last minute like throw pizzas did you see the little three foot three uh three or four foot pass to mitch no i mean i'm sure i didn't didn't register with me and it was his horrible pass to mitch marner that had the domino effect of the puck not coming out and then then going to Carter Verhage in front of the net,

and then having Gio pull him down to take the penalty. The penalty was a direct result of Lilligren chopping the puck into 10 pieces. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, he's not going to, he's out right now for them in playoffs. That's just his spot. And I thought last night might have been a chance for him

to show, you know, that he's the guy you want in over Shen or whatever. Shen was not as involved, but Lilligren hurt his own stock. Hurt his own stock. Like, if he's, if part of the reason why he's your seventh and part of the reason why he's your seventh D and part of the reason why he's only playing nine minutes is because he's suffering from, you know,

lack of confidence disorder, loss, Sandin, loss of confidence. What is putting him out there in the last minute due to his confidence? Well, it's supposed to instill him confidence. No,

it makes it, it makes him feel worse about himself that's what it did well it did because he played bad but giving him the opportunity is not the same as that you know like that's lilligran hey we want you to go but as a coach but as a coach your job is to identify areas where i think you can succeed. Throwing them out there with two minutes to go, six on four on a desperate team with still really good players like Barkov doesn't put them in a position to succeed.

No, but what it does do is it gives you the rope. It gives him the rope to either hang himself or succeed. You basically say, okay, these are the situations where we would use you if you're in. This is where we want you to be in our lineup you're a guy who needs to be able to play these minutes so go and show us you can handle them and if you don't then i have something that i can hold up to you and go here's why here's why you've been eating popcorn for a week while you're watching us play

so it's great that you can do that but doesn't help the big picture. No, you know, we're getting away from big picture time though. And, you know, playoffs will be today and today only. The one thing I did want to mention for D though, you know, one thing that does not help the Leafs. If you, if, if I have any doubts about the Leafs and playoffs, obviously, you know, we'll talk about goaltending question marks, whatever, but they don't have a number one D, right? They don't have a guy where you're like, oh, Hedman's going to play 28, Makara's going to play 28, Fox, whoever it may be. TJ Brody was unbelievable last night.

He was good. And I know he's not a number one D, you know, by definition, how we think about them. But like, I just thought so effective. He even skated the puck. He was up in the rush, and I know he doesn't do that much. You don't want him to do that,

but he's as close as, when I think of the guy who you want out there, it's always Brody. Brody only. That's it. For the end of the game, Brody, McCabe. Brody in.

You know, McCabe makes me nervous. Really? Like, I think he's got all the tools, but he makes me a bit nervous. He makes a couple decisions where I'm like, oh, like, he's got the wrong side of the risk-reward calculator sometimes that makes me go, oh. Oh, that won't come back to bite you in a big spot.

Well, that's, and you're going to use him in big spots. Where are you on Morgan Riley? I didn't think Morgan Riley was bad by any stretch. There wasn't anything that stood out, but maybe that's a good thing as he tries to uh crank his game up you know what i notice is uh you've seen gustafson do a lot of that fake slapper and like step around guys geo last night took two fakes at the blue i thought morgan made a couple of plays where he walked the blue a little bit almost like mimicking those guys otherwise i didn't notice him too much

he's just his role in his matchups like who's he gonna play he's sheltered right now well yeah you're gonna have to play him well that's you wonder if it's him and shen can you play the third lines like he was i guess he was he played the second most for the um leafs last night but he played 534 in the power play yeah right so even strength he would have been way down the list so i you you know, we're talking about having all these conversations about who's on at the end of the game and it's Timothy Lilligren. So the guy who makes the most on your back end can't be out there at the end of the game? Like, is that not a bigger conversation than, you know,

blaming Lilligren, who was no good? But, like, maybe it's a bigger conversation about not being able to play your highest paid defenseman at the end of the game. We have had that conversation. But it's one bigger conversation about not being able to play your highest paid defenseman at the end of the game. We have had that conversation. But no, but like. Yeah, we have. But it's one we can allude to today. Yes.

And it's relevant here. You're right. You can talk about it, but what is the answer? The answer, Kip, is that he feels like the sixth guy you would want to go over the boards in that moment. Well, this is where we need a drop in by brad may well well it's not good thanks i like i don't know i just it just really is like i remember i don't know how long ago it was that you asked us kipper that like you know do you need morgan riley like to be at his best for them to win in the playoffs or whatever and i'm starting to think maybe they

don't because they're just sheltering them now it feels like they're prepping them for his playoff role tell me a last team that got to a conference well they have two they got stanley cup final without one or two guys from the blue line just standing out with superior play i want horses back there 17 penguins, I think. Well, it's going to be McCabe and Brody that play the most, by far. There's no doubt. The way that they've allocated the minutes. That's why I'm on the show today doing the magic eye squint

to turn Brody into a number one. I'm like, I didn't see it. But no, he was excellent last night. He was very, very good. What did you guys think of the goaltending? I thought it was very good. I did you guys think of the goaltending uh i thought it was very good i did too yeah uh samsonov again looked as comfortable as he has all year at home yeah yeah and you really controlled you know it wasn't asked to do anything too spectacular but you know good showing

simmer jinxed him hey boys really bad like three minutes left he's like yeah he's had a new baby boy and loved simmer and obviously really jinxed somebody had a new kid and you know how it is sometimes the gods smile on you and you get a game like you know jason sometimes things like that you know jason it's okay i don't i don't take any offense it's it's it's it's right it's no it's uh it's What's his name the actor Matt Damon screwed it up for you With the Justin Bourne movies Jason Bourne

Or the Jason Bourne movies I'm in your camp I think of you before I think of him Matt Damon Everyone else is the opposite though Well I tell you that's my experience with it I don't even it doesn't offend me 1% because it's like every single day of my life.

Someone's like, thanks, Jason. Yeah, no problem. If there was like bad people here, we'd send you out there to get them. You're our guy. That's when you become... Jesus Christ, that's Justin Bourne. Justin Bourne.

Okay, let's go to Sheldon Keep on his number one goalie, Samsonov. Let's have a listen. I thought it was good. It was really good. You know, we obviously, we don't help him with the first shot that he faces there. But after that, we didn't give up a lot.

But I thought we definitely had some looks and he looked sharp. All right, that leads me to my column today for the Toronto Star. Goaltending. Way more teams with question marks than with sure things. So I've kind of left it into, is goaltending still the be-all, end-all of NHL playoff success? Obviously, the Darcy Kemper thing changed some of your thinking about that.

I imagine. I would think that not only did it change mine, but maybe a lot of other teams, including the Toronto Maple Leafs going into this season. You know, which is funny because we have had the talks about, you know, people saying goaltending is the only thing that matters.

You know, obviously there's a lot more to it. If you can have a guy who can make the saves he's supposed to make, then you're a good team. Samsonov, I think, is at worst league average and probably much better than that. So I feel pretty comfortable with Samsonov. I've made a lot of faces this year about the Leafs goaltending,

but I feel pretty good with Samsonov. Listen, outside of the three Russians and maybe Ottinger and, you know, there's some other guys, but, like, how many better guys are you going to – like, they're all kind of the same outside of the top guys. And the way that Samsonov's looked, like, I – I mean, this is famous last words here, but, like, I do have close to trust in him, right?

Like, as much as I can, i trust the guy like i feel as though he's just he's as good as it's gonna get and he's not he's got good numbers he's good at home like i i somewhat trust him well you just said it without saying it you trust him enough you you trust yourself enough to say i don't trust the other guy that badly uh that listen it's the comparable it depends who the other guy is a 915 shisterkin's a 914 samsonov's a 913 like they're in a little pack of russians this year a little pack of russians i speak of matt murray when i think of about you talking to me about trust well and i thought yeah i might trust i might i might trust

joe wall more than matt murray actually i why. I know there's people listening to us, maybe 40% of people who like Murray to start because of his pedigree and his history. Oh, no way. That's crazy talk. Oh, yeah. It's out there. It's out there.

What? Oh, yeah. 100%. Oh, there's no chance. There's just no chance. What about this one? You're Team Samsonov over Murray to start? Yeah, I'm Samsonov.

Well, listen listen even the coach like the coach came out and lied to us for three weeks straight about how great he's been and then finally well who was that if they lost to he's like we didn't make a save he's like i can't lie anymore you can't give up four goals every day he's like eventually i'm in tight it's like okay it's well yeah night. Yeah, you know. All right, one more topic before we go to break, and we got Mike Rupp after the break, NHL network analyst, always terrific having him on the show,

and Joshua Cloak also in the second hour. JB, we're going to get into a little bit of Matthew Nye's too because he's actually watched him. He's seen him. Yeah. He probably has as good of an eye for him than anyone out there this season. And I would say a healthy skepticism. We will talk about what he can bring.

Okay, but we're just going to talk and throw it out there. You can make up your own minds out there about should Nye's be in playoffs or not. Okay, great. I'm looking forward to that. One more before we go to the break and not to pile on sheldon keith here but i'm i'm watching the uh overtime and like thank god it's over right another season yeah so we don't have to deal with these three on three starting. Please, you're going to hit rip on this? Oh, thank you. Enough. Oh, my God, enough.

Enough. To me, to watch David Camp start when you've got like $30 million on the bench. I'm Austin Matthews sipping my water watching David Camp take a three-on-three draw. It's all about the draw. When's the last time he won one of them? Feels like he loses every single one of them. Not only does he lose it, but you know what the next minute's going to look like.

Playing the safe defensive position. You're just chasing it around, chasing it around. And worse is he's got Mitch Marner there. So you've killed a minute of Mitch Marner as he starts skating around chasing the puck. It's one minute that you watch Kemp and Marner chasing around like a puck, like two dogs in the park. It's like me with my six-year-old when I'm stick handling in the driveway. She's like putting it through his feet.

I said, was it on this show that I said it? But I can't remember where I said it that. It's like a golfer who had the yips and, like, went to the crosshand grip. Yeah. And he fixed the yips, but he's still doing the stupid grip. It's like, just go back to what worked before. Like, you have amazing players sitting on the bench. Like, you don't need the new swing trick.

No. Get Kampf and Lilligren off the ice. Play good players. And the last one for me, again, three on three, and we'll never discuss it ever again, because hopefully there won't be any more three on threes in the next eight games. 100%. Sheldon Keefe putting out Tavares and Willie,

I think, off of a timeout. Yeah, not for them. Willie, for sure, but not Tavares. Tavares, we know where his strengths are. Six feet around the net. That guy can't play three on three you can make a case that he shouldn't go over the boards and should not be over the boards i love the

hockey player john devarez three and three is not for him just that hole and get ready because last night was as clear of a picture of two cookie monsters that you'll ever see in overtime between him and Willie. Okay? Willie's going in the middle of the ice inside the blue line, and things aren't going great with Willie. But now I'm going to now try to put the puck between my legs did he oh yeah he tried to drag it back and watch it i'm literally doing that go go watch oh there's only three guys in

the ice but he tried to drag it through all of them ridiculous ridiculous it was a ridiculous like i get it when you're feeling it and things are rolling for you paycheck? But this was the all-time worst time to try to, I don't know, trickery or hot-dogging. I don't care what you want to call it. It didn't work. And to watch John now go into that pile of crap and try to think you're going to find a loose puck and be the hero. Yeah. And then in a split second, you give up 180 foot two on one yeah you know what even made me more upset than that so here's you know willie at the top he's gonna try to go through

montour ugly you're right tavara's at this time pull out it's not your puck so when they start going the other way here's what kills me kip it's clearly a rush they got two guys streaking on your one defenseman. Get back and play D. Go make it a three-on-two. I like your odds in three-on-two. They won't. He goes to the puck and lets them have a three-on-two.

They want to score. They want to score. Killed me. Tavares puck chasing. It's go big or go home. Yeah. No. I know this is a relevant playoff talk, but it is a good, like,

it puts in context the type of players i wish i could sit mindset i wish i could sit here and say that the point differential that they would have gotten overtime this year if they hadn't played it well would be have them close to the bruins but it just wouldn't so it wouldn't really change a whole lot but it's just annoying to watch you're right it's three on three nobody cares it's going to disappear how many three on threes you get in the playoffs uh almost zero yeah right presumably zero zero so but it it speaks to where you are with your mentality yeah and you know you wonder and what you believe i'd love to say oh it's different because it's regular season and the game doesn't matter but no that's a trend that's

how and this is from kevin pipetti on twitter who a bunch of great stats. Tavares is a career dash seven in goal differential at three versus three. Wow. That's worst on the team? No, tied with Mitch Marner. They just had such a bad start to the season with Tavares. The best is Brody, plus eight. Brody, start Brody. I love it.

Nylander's the second with plus three. Was there a part of you last night when you saw the jerseys that they were wearing? It was just not going to be a good night. Did you see the stat? That really insightful advanced stat I put in the lineup today? No, it's not one for four. Leaves are one, three, and one when they wear the Bieber jerseys. Stop wearing the damn Bieber jerseys.

What are they in their beautiful retros they wore twice? I don't know. Two and O. Please. I can't do the Bieber jerseys again. They're so bad. All right. Here's some stats for you. Let me do some stats. Let's go to break action. Quickly.0. Please. Like, I can't do the Beaver jerseys again. They're so bad. All right, here's some stats for you.

Let me do some stats. Let's go to break, actually. Quickly, quickly. Let's go to break. Okay. I'll read it. More break? No, let me just read this one.

That the Leafs have missed six straight penalty shot attempts dating back to the 2019 postseason, and Toronto hasn't scored on a penalty shot at home since January 7th, 2012. Phil Kessel versus the Red Wings. It's a long time now, boys. 11 years. Ashton Reese should have gone right back to the Forsberg.

Yeah, instead he banged it off the end glass. That's the one shootout. All right, let's take a quick break. We'll welcome in Mike Rupp, NHL analyst and friend of the show. More real Kipper and Bourne after the break. Diving deep into Leafs, Raptors, Jays, and NFL. More Real Kipper and born on sportsnet 590 the van nick kiprio justin born on our special edition of real kipper and born it is baseball's opening day oh yeah i love that all right let's welcome in mike rup nhl network analyst former nhler stanley cup champion he's done it all.

He's seen it all. And Rupp, first of all, thanks for joining us, man. How are you? I'm good, boys. How are you guys doing? Good. So, I mean, we're watching teams we think are out get back in. Last night was a prime example with the Florida Panthers.

Where are you on Florida overall? Are they just putting off the inevitable here? Kind of feels like it to me a little bit, but just kind of your point there, Kipper, it's like every time you turn around, the team that's in is kind of leaving the door open.

So I think a lot of that's going to be on the Pittsburgh Penguins. They've got, I think, Nashville and then they're followed up by, I think, Boston on the weekend. So I think a lot of that's going to be on the Pittsburgh Penguins. They've got, I think, Nashville, and then they're followed up by, I think, Boston on the weekend. So, I mean, clearly, you want to win both games, but you've got to at least guarantee yourself one of those games. And I think that's the crazy thing we've seen down the stretch here is these teams that are fighting for their playoff lives

are losing to teams that, quite quite frankly they shouldn't be losing to or that are depleted by their injuries or from the trade deadline or just uh haven't been good teams all year so it's a crazy league right now but it's uh there's some teams that are really having a hard time trying to muster together enough to solidify their spot repper happy to get a, another opinion on Paul Maurice's snap show last night for Florida. I did. Did you happen to see that? I did.

What would you have thought as a player? You liked it? Oh, no, I don't know if I'd like it as a player from where I was sitting. I liked it from where I was sitting now, just for entertainment value. I,

you know, it's hard to say, like, I don't know what you guys thought. I don't even know what was being said, but one thing I will, I will say now just for entertainment value. You know, it's hard to say, like, I don't know what you guys thought. I don't even know what was being said. But one thing I will say that I like about it is I like there's some emotion. Like, that's the thing that was lacking and I feel like has been lacking with this team.

I mean, you've got Matthew Kachuk, and he provides so many different things. This team, I think, over the last couple years, and you can't change it by just one player, I think they lack emotion at certain times. And that emotion that you need to have, I think, is what gets you over the hump in these moments that they're in right now where the playoffs are in your grasp and have been for a while. And, I mean, you date back just a week ago. I mean, they woke up in the playoff spot for the first time

pretty much all season. And then they let that just slip away, and what if they lost four in a row or whatever it was. So, you know, they're still in that mix there. I think it's emotional. It's hard to say without really knowing what's being said on the bench. I always felt like it was, as a player, I would get motivated when coaches would yell,

but then I would also, all of a sudden, sometimes you get to some of the teammates at times that were the, the brown nosers that would stand up and be like, yeah, I just try to, no, no, no. I hated those guys. I did see that. I did see Lombert kind of chime in there. So I, without knowing what was said, but you know, it just let the coach do his thing.

Everybody else should know what to do and take care of it. Robert, like a guy like Mike Keenan would never yell like that. He just rather tell you, like, I hate you and I'm going to trade you tomorrow. And you know, you're an embarrassment to your family, you know, that sort of stuff. What about some of your coaches? Like anyone's come to mind when it comes to that level? Yeah, you know, Pat Burns.

Pat Burns was, you know, I had an interesting relationship with him because I cracked in the NHL with him. And then unfortunately when he got sick and he was still working for the team but wasn't coaching, I ran into him years down the road, and I think he was kind of scouting for the Devils, and I had a great relationship with him later on, and honestly I wish I would have. To be honest, if he would have just talked to me a little bit more

and explained why he was doing what he was doing. I was a young kid, and I was like, why has this guy got it out for me? What did I do? He was trying to make me better, trying to get me to understand certain things, but he would do things like, man, I remember he was on me all the time. Scott Gomez always says this, where he's like, the best thing happened, you coming into our team was the best thing that's happened to me

because Gomer stopped being the whipping boy and it started becoming me, right? So Pat would lay into me, and I remember one time, I was like 22 years old. i was talking to my agent i was talking to my my parents i'm talking to i'm like i can't keep like he's just wearing me down every day and they're like you know go you got to show him some emotions so i went to his office and I asked him if I could talk to him, close the door. And I don't even know what I sounded like.

I was trying to muster up enough because he's a pretty intimidating guy, especially for a rookie, right? And I told him that it was BS the way he was treating me. And I'm not going to, I wasn't going to take it anymore. And I remember he sat back in his chair and he goes, is that right? And I go, yeah. I'm like, I'm not going to know. I don't deserve this, you know? And he starts bringing out this whole I don't deserve this you know and and uh he starts

bringing out this whole plan because he was you know a cop and uh he he starts he's like I don't think you want to be a hockey player he goes you know and there's nothing wrong with that he goes I've got plenty of connections in the industry if you want to be a cop I can give you you know some uh some good recommendations and pass your name along. And I'm just like, I know what you're doing. Like he, he, but he, he pushed me and he started making me have a little bit of, you know, kind of piss and vinegar in my blood. So it was, it was something that he was all over me, but I don't think they made him much like Mike Keenan. Okay. I don't know about that. Well, listen, just, you know, before we go any further, I just want to remind

any Florida Panther player who's listening right now, thel wants to remind you you do have a 1-800 number if you've been feeling like you've been mentally or verbally abused to call in yeah i mean that is uh i'm joking are you okay yeah are you okay? Yeah. Were you like... I thought you might be getting emotional. No, no. We'll help you through. I mean, do you think people are wondering, like, if they watched that last night?

If they're in line... Like, we're in 2023. Do you think people today are still watching and going, oh, did he cross the line? Well, I think there are people like... Who was it with Detroit? Johan Franzen was saying that Babs was hard on him and he didn't handle it well, right? Ruppers, is that where we are today? That people could question

that last night? Full transparency. If you guys had this, if this interview was on a video source, I figured you were joking, but I didn't want to be the one to react, so I put the phone away from my face. Here's the thing.

You have to, you know, like you're in locker rooms. Are you kidding me? The things that are said amongst teammates to one another, just in healthy ribbing is way worse than anything a coach can say to me. You know what I'm saying? Like you got to have thick skin and that's all part of it right so yeah I mean it's uh I I don't think every player responds to that and I think that's up to a coach I got I think maybe back in the day and I came to think

of when I was younger as a younger kid playing you can't just have a blanketing um you can't just throw a blanket over all the players this is how we treat everybody I do think that it's changed over time what What motivates players? What doesn't, but at the same time, a little bit of pushback from a coach, you know, it's a,

it's a vehicle to get more out of your players and that's their job. So, you know, you look at some of these teams on the cusp though, and it's insane that any team would need motivation. Isn't it? Like just looking at the, you know,

where Pittsburgh is at or Nashville's at Winnipeg. I don't know. Do you see Rick Bonas? So Mark Shifley says something about how he likes to play offense, and a reporter brings that to Bonas yesterday and says, Mark says he likes to hang on to the puck, and Bonas' eyes rolled back in his head like, oh, my God, this Shifley guy again.

It's such a funny time, isn't it? Because I don't think coaches generally motivate the way Maurice did in that clip. It seems different now where you have to talk and communicate, not like Pat Burns or Mike Keenan. Yeah, you know, and Bones is one of the best. That's why he's been around forever. And I had him briefly. He's one of my favorite guys.

The way he just, I spent about five minutes with him in Arizona. I wasn't there very long, but I knew I figured out right away, like he just, he spoke to you. Like he spoke to you and had come, he conversed with you on how to get to where you need to be. Very clear though. Hey, if you don't get there, you're not going to be here. You know what I mean?

Like he made that very clear. So it wasn't like he wasn't trying to just, you know, trying to handle you with white gloves. And, you know, I find that that's the thing. Even the other day when he said, what did he say? Some of these guys, if they think they're playing hard, they're not. It's almost like the line of, for me, what motivated me as a kid even. My parents can yell at me.

I mean, I got yelled at all the time. Like at some point, yelling doesn't work. But when my mom said, I'm really disappointed in you, it was like oh my gosh like that got me right like that's like the worst thing that your parent can save you so like it's a coach when it's like you almost get something on those lines and especially a coach that is invested in getting to know you and trying to push you along i think bones does that that's why he's been around forever that that sometimes they'll get more out of you right because man

to man and looking each other in the eye, you know that you're not giving enough. So, yeah, it's all different. I mean, Torch is one of my favorite coaches. And at the same rate, so is Dan Bosma in Pittsburgh. Completely different coaches, you know? And it's just, you got to have the respect. You got to earn the respect as a coach.

And then I think then your players will react. We're talking to Mike Rupp, Stanley Cup champion, current analyst with the NHL Network. Rupp, every time I'm ready to write off Pittsburgh, I have to remind myself they've got Sidney Crosby. So is that the way I should still be thinking here to close out the season? Yeah, I think so. I think so. I think so.

I mean, you've got, they've got the kind of the big, the big four there, if you want to call them the big four with Crosby, Malkin, Gensel, and Raquel. I think they all have over, what is it? They all have over 60 points. They've got some good offense coming from their top lines. The problem with this team is it goes beyond that. It goes beyond their stars. Their stars have been

solid for them all season long. Their defensive play this entire season, not just the D-core. I mean, they're forwards at times, and sometimes it's even their star forwards. There's just like this circling. I mean, it's hockey 101, like stopping in the D zone

and just staying there, right? Like I was always taught, and trust me, I made plenty of defensive mistakes, but I was always taught if you're confused on a play or if something's going wrong, just stop and mill the ice, at least to keep them on the outside. Right. And I feel like the Penguins all the time.

And a lot of times in the D zone, it's their forwards. Like they get puck watching. And then when the puck gets rotated around the zone, they do a swoop and they turn to go back to position instead of stopping and coming straight line back. And there's passes have been zipping through the house. Their goaltenders have been struggling. So that's not a way to help their goaltenders feel it a little bit. So, but to your point, I mean, they've got Sid, they got, you know so that's not a way to help their goaltenders feel it a little bit so um but to your point i mean they've got sid they got you know that's why i i just cannot imagine them not getting in here so um i think they figured out but then then what congratulations

you got the boss of bruins in the first round yeah no kidding you know speaking of tough first round matchups huge match tonight the new york r have the New Jersey Devils, very likely first-round combatants. Home ice on the line. Two very good teams here. What are your thoughts on where these groups are at? The Rangers seem to have made significant strides since the trade deadline where it looked a little rough after adding Tarasenko and Kane.

Yeah, no, they're a team, man. When they snap that puck around, it's like they're watching the Globetrotters. They sometimes find themselves in positions where they take on timely penalties at times still where they'll just get a lead and then they give a team an opportunity. But for the most part,

they've been playing a really good brand of hockey. And I think E. Orshester can start to feel a little bit more. Yara Lock's actually been really good. Remember, he started this season 0-6 in his first six starts. So they're heading in the right direction. New Jersey's one that all season long I've thought this, and watching them even last year playing against the Devils. The Devils give the Rangers problems.

They're a fast team, a quick team, quick on the transition. And it's just a little – the Rangers don't look comfortable. The results in the game scores of their games when they play against each other is not significantly in New Jersey's favor, but the game play has been. And so I think it's an interesting matchup. I think it's going to come down to, are the Rangers going to be able to lock up that middle of the ice? One thing that they've learned is now in that Tarasenko deal this Nico Mikula fellas this guy's a good player man he

provides a lot on the back end and when I first saw him in St. Louis I was like this guy's all what he almost reminded me of he almost reminded me of a Tyler Myers at times where it was like just limbs everywhere I'm like this guy takes. He's uncontrolled with his stick and his arms and his elbows. He's hitting people by accident and taking penalties and just seemed kind of like, seemed like a giraffe out there. Right. I started watching him now where you got Ryan lingering out of the lineup and he got paired with Adam Fox and he's really solid and he's tough. Like he's providing us a little,

little more of a backbone of this decor and they've already got it with Truba and when lingering gets healthy. So with that deco decor there, if they can just make sure and just take away the middle of the ice, that's what Jersey thrives on. If they can make that a tough area and you get that commitment from your forwards as well. I think the Rangers should win that series.

And rubber it's, it's one thing when you, when you get a guy like that one night during the regular season. But then when you have to line up against that guy for four, five, six, seven games, that's when size matters in the NHL, you know? Well, 100%. Yeah, I mean, think back to even some of the recent years of some of the decors.

I mean, you go back to when Montreal went to the finals, huge D right. And you go back to, um, you know, Tampa monstrous defenseman and, uh,

you know, Ryan McDonough, I always joked around that, uh, I played with him in New York and his nickname was Mack truck. Yeah. And he's the smallest defense than they had. And his nickname is freaking Mack truck.

So, you know, you, it's a, you go back, you go back to the St. Louis blues and what they did. Hey,

the, the, yeah, Pareko, the, these big guys that kind of Pareko came out of kind of took that next huge step in his career at that time. But it's,

it's the, the value of space in the playoffs is such, such a premium. And if you can, I mean, you gotta be able to skate to get there, to get to that spot. But once you get to that spot,

give me a guy with three, to be honest with you, I don't even care if it's a, if it's, I do care, but it's still advantageous for a team to have a guy that's six, four, six, five that he doesn't even have to hit. He could be one of the softest players out there. Just his reach alone. but it's still advantageous for a team to have a guy that's 6'4", 6'5".

He doesn't even have to hit. He could be one of the softest players out there. Just his reach alone makes a difference. He's taking up more space. So now you start adding in just a little bit of flair, and that's what this Nico Mikula is bringing. I think those guys are what pays big dividends in the playoffs. As far as Pat Kane in New York,

has he overachieved five goals in a dozen games? Or overall, the impact on him, is it enough to say to you that he could be a huge difference maker now for the Rangers? He's been... Here's the thing with watching Patrick Kane. There's some times been, it's, here's the thing with watching Patrick Kane. There's, there's sometimes where, you know, there's, there's things that he, he's been finishing.

He's snapping plays, snapping pucks around. He creates, he creates a lot. I wonder, and this is, I mean, you're talking in my opinion, he's the best American born player to ever play the game today. And so I'm, I want to preface it with that. Love Patty Kane. I'm wondering at his age and the miles on his body in the playoffs, if it doesn't, if he's not scoring or creating like he is right now, is he, is his body able to do the other

things? You know what I mean? Cause he's going to play meaningful minutes. I mean, he's, he's a very important player on this team. But it's been good. I'm watching. I think Tarasenko can do it a little bit differently. I'm not as concerned with him, which is kind of funny

because I think Vlad has been one of those hot and cold players way more than Patrick Kane has been in his career. But Vlad's 230 pounds. I've seen him in New York here play mean on some shifts and throw guys off pucks and just own the puck. Hold on to the puck in the offensive zone. Patty Kane doesn't have that frame to do that. So if the points aren't there,

is he still going to be able to contribute to the team in another way? That's my biggest question. But if he can do that, this team, this team's loaded for bear. Well, we're looking forward to it. And we inch closer to ending the regular season

rupper uh hopefully you can uh come back and join us in the playoffs we'd love to have you looking forward to it thanks for doing this pal all right guys take care thanks rupper mike rupp nhl network i love that point about kane where these guys are there to produce offense it gets tough let's say he has a spell where he's not producing. You start looking around going, we're not getting anything from him. If he's not producing, you're not getting anything from him. Okay. Substitute Pat Kane and put in the name Willie Nylander.

Beautiful. Yeah. What are you getting when you're not contributing? Yeah. So typically with Willie this year, you've been getting something you haven't for a while he's had a terrific season yeah right yeah and yeah the last dozen games not good not good but i don't think the focus of 12 games should overshadow what we've gotten or seen out of Willie all season long. Right.

Well, I agree with that. But? But. You know, one thing you heard Willie say, he's been quoted preseason being like, you know, I can just cut that stretch of games out where I'm, you know, not present. Then I'm a 40 goal guy. And it's like, well, he's going to fall short of 40 goals because he can't cut that stretch he's not present or did you i did okay i don't like it though yeah because last night he doesn't he didn't look present no i thought he had i thought he had a little bit of

jump a couple times chasing him and he was around it but we've had now sample sizes throughout this season where you go oh man he might be the best player in the game big strong you can't take the puck off of them taking it to the net the edge work is world class if you ever seen him on the ice i maintain that challenge to someone have you ever seen willie neil anders jersey get ice on it never goes down best edges so best edges i just think boys that we're all would be lying to ourselves if we sat around and looked at each other and said that we're gonna get through a full season of william neilander without the stretch that's why he the timing of the stretch here that's why he makes you know four million less than the a lot of the other guys yeah it's just the consistency

has always been an issue and he was consistent for 80 of the year but like i i just i always in the back of my mind had been preparing myself for this like i knew we weren't going to get through the full year without the downswing and i actually don't think this is the worst time in morning i disagree yeah get it out of the way right before the playoffs and what hopefully will help a lot before i go there i'll just say this that i'm a firm believer that uh the pulse of the leafs this spring will come from the second line we know what matthews and marner will bring that's done the question mark is what kind of second line is going to follow up marner and matthew so that lies on tavaris nylander and ryan o'reilly and thank or hey thank goodness yeah thank goodness that they went out and got ryan o'reilly there there would be a full panic right now without that trade.

If you just thought of Tavares, Nylander, and who's going to be on the left side, is it Jarnkrok, is it Kerfoot, will it be Matthew Nyes to come in with his Superman cape out of Minnesota and save the second line? So you want O'Reilly on the second line? I don't know what I want yet. What I'm saying is... There's options.

There's options with Ryan O'Reilly coming back next week that Sheldon's going to have to get them back in order here. You need to see good Willie. If you take Willie as is right now into game one, there's

an issue. Oh, yeah. i think i think willie's not good i think willie uh maybe as much as any of the other stars has turned up his game big time in the playoffs he has yeah last year he was fine the year before he was good hold on you want what's best for mitch martyr do you not you do you want what's best best him. What's best for Mitch is wherever Mitch goes. Whether it's Matthews or Tavares. Everybody gets better with Mitch Marner. Let me walk this through. Let me walk this through.

You want what's best for Mitch Marner. I do too. Everyone wants what's best for him. The best thing for him is the Toronto Maple Leafs winning a Stanley Cup. No doubt about it. If he gets 1,000 points in round one and they lose, his reputation is not as good as if he gets four points and they win a cup right i don't know where you're going with this i know let me

get talking out baby i think the team is best when he drives a line and he's him and matthews apart matthews and marner each drive a line because JT needs Marner. Matthews doesn't need Marner. He's better with him. Oh, no, no. Matthews needs Marner. No. So he's not.

So let's not get derailed by a dumb argument where Matthews without Mitch Marner would be a 40-point guy. He'd get 90 points without Mitch. He'd be fine. Yeah, but you want him at 115. Well, this is the thing, though. Do you want Matthews to be this much better, or do you want Tavares to be this much better?

Because he makes a big difference when he's with Mitch. Is Matthews crying when he doesn't have Mitch, or is he not crying? I don't know that. It doesn't matter. I'm the coach. It does matter. We're playing coach. No, no, no, no.

It does matter because what Austin wants, Austin gets. You want to make that guy happy. As it should be, kind of. Don't you think? Okay. Well, no. Okay. I think you're trying to build a roster that wins you a Stanley Cup.

And everybody's happy when you win the Stanley Cup. Everyone is best friends and everything was perfect and magical. And if it's the best thing for the team, then it's the best thing for the team. And egos aside, I think the best thing for this team is Matthewgos aside i think the best thing for this team is matthews and marner playing on different lines i wish i could agree i agree morning who do you want marner to help out the most on the team i want him to give me two lines because when jt and willie are playing like they are now you have one line he gives us two lines because he's so good he can turn tavarez into a consistent producer and he's not with willie when willie's not jamming so you

want tavarez with marner yeah and o'reilly and who and o'reilly i mean that i love and go back to that love that but i mean if it's bun bunting. That will be an option for sure. But I just, I don't think, I don't think Matthews and Yarncroft and Kerfrey is getting it done for Austin. Austin wants nothing to do with that. He likes Yarncroft. He likes Yarncroft. He does.

I think Austin, Nylander, and Yarn Croc is pretty darn good. He likes Yarn Croc until he doesn't like Yarn Croc. Flex seal. Yarn Croc. I tweeted it last night. It's the best job in the world. But you need two lines cranking. Right now you have one line.

Yes. And five guys at the bottom who just interchange. They exist as well anyway okay we're gonna take another break man this show's flying by can we get baseball to open up every day in the playoffs so we can be home by well midday at nine o'clock tonight kipper if we were doing a seven hour gap if we were doing a show in chicago every day is a day game so we'd be doing a different time for the cubs okay we're gonna take a quick break joshua cloak uh writer for the athletic covers the leafs he's gonna get a little in-depth on matthew nyes he's watched him right yeah good we're gonna get

his thoughts on how big could the contribution be how realistic is it that this guy comes in and saves the day for the Toronto Maple Leafs all right Joshua Cloak after the break you're watching and listening to real Kipper and Bourne smart takes on the biggest stories in sports the fan drive time with Ben Ennis subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Real Kipper and Born on Sportsnet 590 The Van. Nick Kiprios, Justin Born. Let's welcome in Joshua Cloak, Leafs writer for The Athletic athletic does a terrific job thanks for

joining us josh how are you not bad at all what's going on today guys well you know we're eight games away from the uh playoffs and uh like i often say we sit here for two hours and we solve nothing it's our job how do I get that job? Yeah, I'm not sure you're going to want it. But we wanted to get into a little bit of a prospect talk. And we know who sits at the top of the mountain for the Toronto Maple Leafs, who's currently playing right now in the NCAA. And, you know, we want to get your thoughts

because we know that you've had extensive looks into Matthew Nyes and, first and foremost, you know, your overall thoughts about Nyes and how realistic is it for Leaf fans? Well, I mean, how realistic is it that he's going to play for the team? Very realistic. How realistic is it that he's going to play for the team very realistic um how realistic is it that he's going to be like an impact player a difference maker i i'd probably temper expectations there right like the the player itself is a real kind of

unicorn in the game and that he's six three two", 2'10". He's got incredible hands and he can run guys over at the same time. So you don't find that combination of skill and size very often. I think he sees himself as like a prototypical power forward, which is going to make a certain section of Leafs fans salivate. But there's still serious gaps in his game, right? Like his skating is a work in progress, particularly his lateral skating. And he's had a lot of success at the college level

because, you know, not every player is 6'3", 210. But once you get to the NHL level, obviously, you know, 6'3", 210 is good, but it's not game-breaking right so you know he's he's developed really really well this season in particular he wanted to go back like you know Kyle Dubas wanted to sign the player last April and credit to the player he said I'm not ready like I'm not mature enough that's something i learned you know when i went down to minnesota in january um hell of an assignment minnesota in january by the way but you know i went down and hung out with him there and you know he's he's a remarkably self-aware kid you

know like a lot of kids would look at you know a multi-million dollar contract being placed in front of them and and say yeah show me where to to sign. But he knew he wasn't ready. And you could make the argument that after another full year of development, he's ready to play, but maybe not ready to make a high-end impact just yet. Yeah. You were able to watch a couple of games. How many games did you just stick around for? I saw three games. Now, most of those games were against Michigan State,

not exactly a powerhouse. But I've been following along all season. Like, the thing, too, like, Matt Nise is having a good season, and he's playing on the best line in college hockey. His centerman is Logan Cooley, who, you know, might be the best player not in the NHL right now, probably going to be the best player from last year's draft. Jimmy Snuggerud, a first round pick of the St. Louis Blues on the right side there.

Like he's playing with incredible players. And part of the dominance he's experiencing at the college level is because he's playing with great players. You know, I'm sure some people would say, well, that's part of the reason for his success. But I think it helps him to know that like when he goes to play pro, he's going to be playing with very good players as well. So I don't know if it's going to be like him sinking right away. Again, like I said,

there's just some gaps in his game right now that I think are going to be pretty glaring at the pro level. I don't know that this has been out there yet. He was named, I see it five minutes ago in my feed one of the three finalists for the hobie baker award along with logan cooley um and adam fantilli so the good you know that's good he's had a tremendous season you know i put my lineup out there the other day uh josh and some people responded to me like how do you not have knives up the lineup or how do you even have him in the lineup you know where do you start this guy do you think it's possible to put him on the fourth line and just have him be a fourth line type player or given the way he's played

offensively and all that do you think he has to be in a position where he's with players who make plays of the puck and try to score well i, I mean, I think Zach Aston Reese probably saw your tweet and had the game he did last night, right? True. You know, I think if you look at the Leafs' 12 best forwards, you know, when Ryan O'Reilly gets in there, I see Nyes as the 13th forward. And I might be in the minority, right?

But I say that because the kid's 20 years old. One thing I picked up from him, you you know hanging out with him in minnesota like he's he's a little bit green about the whole process he you know i don't know if he fully understands what life in the nhl entails and how could he so i don't know why you would like you don't need to put him in against tampa bay in a series that look if if the Leafs make a costly error that costs them in the game that that might end up costing them the series that I'm talking about you know a Galchenyuk or Dermott type error like if Nyes makes one of those and the Leafs lose like you know the entire organization could be overhauled I I just don't know why you would

want to put a player in and and put him in that kind of pressure pack situation when you don't necessarily need him. That's where I'm at, but it feels like, like, Boren, it feels like you're kind of on the opposite side there. No, no, no, it's fair. It's just not sexy, right? Everyone wants him to come up and be important. But, yeah, if you feel like Zach Aston-Reese can give you the same,

I don't know, where do you sit on it, Kipper? Have you changed your mind about what Nize is or where he should start I've always found the left side of the Toronto Maple Leafs all season long uh the weakest a soft spot a weak spot uh I am intrigued at six three 205 or 210 pounds uh I would we we know he's going to sign a contract we know they're going to burn off a year we know let's just start with one regular season game in the next 10 days right and go from there play and he'll play in those games right you look at like i mean i'm going on the road for those last three games of the year in you know very large part to see what matthew nye's looks like right because you have to expect that a some of their top guys are going to need some rest,

should have some rest over those final few games, and you're going to want to see what Nyes offers. But, like, I guess if you're Sheldon Keith, aren't you looking up and down the lineup and weighing out impact versus who can I trust not to make a mistake? Like I said, he's been burned by players making errors that have cost him the game in the past and it's no coincidence that those players like I'm talking about Galchenyuk, Dermott, even Raspis Sandin who had an error in game five like

those players aren't with the team anymore so I think if you're Sheldon Keefe, and again, you're right, Bourne, it's not sexy, but safe is probably the optimal way to go if you're Sheldon Keefe, is it not? Well, it's a playing to lose, not to lose, versus playing to win type of thing, I guess. You've got a general manager who's got no contract next year, and the feeling is that you're attached to the hip with him, and if he goes, i go too and you know i don't know where safety falls into that mentality what matt nyes does bring that like you know zach aston reese alex kerfoot like don't is like real

pure scoring instincts like what i took away from him watching him up close is that every time he has the puck his mo is get to the goal as as quickly as possible like he's a real straight lines player um and his physicality helps he can bowl guys over on the way to the net so that could be something that's really enticing right maybe it's a matter of him coming in in game four or five maybe they're down like you know maybe they're down three two in the series and they haven't been able to generate enough offense um maybe then you feel comfortable bringing him in because he can score and he can shoot like he can rip a puck and these are the high-end attributes of his game.

And again, this is kind of the risk reward thing that Sheldon Keefe is going to have to balance because like, he's going to be a long-term like piece of the organization. And that's where I, that's where I kind of go. Like you learn from the Nick Robertson kind of experiment in 2020, where you put him in, you know, right into a playoff game and he scored a goal.

Yeah, but then like two games later, you're kind of looking at the player going like, he's barely swimming here, right? Like adrenaline can only carry you for so long. That's kind of where I'm at with Matt Nice. We're talking to Joshua Cloak, Leaf writer for The Athletic. Earlier, you mentioned life in the NHL.

And yeah, that's something that you have to consider. But then you also have to consider life in the NHL in Toronto. This isn't a guy going to Seattle. This is a guy going into this market. At the peak of desperation and panic. Might I remind you, Josh, and my good buddy here, JB, that there is a tendency in this city to overhype. And just where is that defense mechanism of knowing that you've got to protect this guy as well

and not necessarily throw him to the sharks? And, you know, you mentioned, you know, are they comfortable enough if they're down 3-2? I substitute the word comfortable for desperate. Are they desperate enough to put them in there when they're down 3-2? Well, you know what's really cool? One thing I learned, you know, you mentioned the word protecting. Like, he is really close, closer than I think a lot of

people understand with Austin Matthews right both Arizona born and when Matt Nyes was considering whether or not to sign with the Leafs last April one of the first people he called was was Austin Matthews and and Austin told me that like his job in that scenario was just to listen to him and kind of as he said not be a used car salesman but just kind of like hear out his thoughts tell him what Toronto has to offer but not give him the hard sell and then you know I talked to him again about it and you know Matthews was very clear he said when you know when Matt Nyes arrives I want to be here to be a sounding board I want to be here to kind of show him the ropes, like not a bad player to have in your corner,

not a bad player to have showing you what life in the NHL is like. So I think that's something that Nyes will have in his corner. If you're looking for reasons for optimism, you've got, you know, again, one of the very few Arizona born players in the NHL are, you know, one of the top three players in the NHL who's playing, you know, again, one of the very few Arizona-born players in the NHL, you know, one of the top three players in the NHL who's playing, you know, great hockey right now, kind of taking him under his wing. I think that's something not every player who makes the jump has. And to have Matthews in your corner, you know, again, if you're looking for reasons why he maybe should be in the playoff lineup,

having a guy like Austin Matthews beside you on the bench who is eager to kind of tell you about what's going to come next that's got to help right yeah unless he's telling them oh my god they don't leave you alone it's awful you're in the grocery you're in the grocery line and they're asking what's wrong with the power play. I'm like, I just want apples. Stay at the Thirsty Loon in Minneapolis, kid. St. Paul. The last one I have for you on Nyes is, you know, where should he win the Hobie? You know, I see people mad online, Leafs pick,

you know, and people thinking that it's a lot of the buzz from the Toronto market helping him along. But he won player of the year in the conference. The three guys who were up for the award are in his conference conference it sounds like he has a legit chance to win the hobie yeah it is rare that people get mad online about the leafs like no tell me a little bit more about what that's like um no look i i mentioned it before like i don't know how much you guys have had a chance to watch logan cooley but like like, I kind of came away from, you know, the live Logan Cooley experience watching him back in January.

And I was texting some of our prospect writers being like, why didn't this guy go number one? He is so dynamic. He's such a good skater. Like, he probably could have been in the NHL. He certainly could have been in that Coyotes lineup. But that guy is such a difference maker. And I think when we look back on the 22 draft,

he will be the best player of that draft. He's just so dynamic, so skilled. So I don't really know if Matt Nice has a shot. I think he got onto the top 10 list. No problem. Fantilli is obviously, he's probably going to go, what, number two in this year's draft. He's among some really incredible company there.

So I think just being in that list is good and is going to build his confidence because that's, again, if we're looking for reasons for optimism, Niles is going to come into the Leafs like riding a high of confidence. You're going to the Frozen Four. You've shown you can dominate at this level. You are ostensibly one of the three best players in college hockey. You'd rather have the player coming in full of swagger than not. And you would think that now being on this list, that swagger than not. Right. And, and you would think that,

you know, now being on this list, that, that swagger is only going to be heightened. Josh is, uh, is there other leaf prospects besides Matthew? Nice.

Are they all sitting there going, uh, don't, don't forget about me. How's Tophie doing? You, I mean, Kipper,

you described it as a mountain of leafs prospects i i would kind of it's it's a nice little hill like let's let's comfortably call it a hill of leafs prospects but i mean that's where this team is at when you when you become one of the best teams year after year in the regular season you give up draft capital to boost your chances and that means your prospect pool is going to be dwindled um i mean i i don't know if he's a prospect so much anymore but like joe wall has developed into in my eyes an nhl ready goalie right and that's that's still fairly rare that doesn't happen every day especially not in toronto that they can draft and develop a goalie um it feels like he could be the number two next year.

But, yeah, you mentioned him as well, Borne. Like, Topi Niemlo was probably their second-best prospect. Finished defenseman, drafted in the third round in 2020. Four years of pro experience in the Finnish league under his belt. You know, he was the best defenseman or named the best defenseman, I think, at the 2020 World Juniors. Real slick, puck- the best defenseman or named the best defenseman i think it's a 2020 world juniors um real slick puck moving defenseman you know 511 which i know is going to scare some people off but just as as smart a defenseman as you're going to find outside the nhl so he's

coming over to the marlies this week so he'll join them for their Calder Cup run I can see him in a Leafs uniform sometime in 2024 but yeah I mean I think that's part of the reason why Matt Nyes is getting talked about as much as he is because there's there's not a ton of high-end difference making prospects and I think you know it wasn't that long ago that the Leafs prospect pool had, you know, Marner, Matthews, Nylander in there. And I think people, maybe some people assume that that's just the way it always is, that you're always just going to have these young players coming up to make a difference. But when you're as good as you have been in the regular season, you have to rely on your second and third round picks to make a difference.

And, you know, hopefully Nye's in the MLK. You lost me at 5'11". I'm sorry. I actually saw your soul leave your body when he said that. You know, they make uniforms for people 6'2 and 6'3 on defense. I can't wait to watch the video replay of this. I am really excited to see your face. Josh, great stuff, man.

Really appreciate the insight into Matthew Nyes, man. Thanks for doing this. Yeah, anytime, boys. Take care. Appreciate it. Yep. You know, with a couple of years seasoning, the MLA could be Lilligren one day.

When he was talking about him, like, oh, so Sandin? It's like, oh, he's describing Rafa Sandin. If things go perfect in his development, he could be a guy that they might trade later for did we all get the sense from joshua that uh temper expectations here on matthew nyes i think so i you know he is less bullish and he's a guy who's seen him live three times watched a lot of his games in video, followed college hockey this year, and he basically is like,

you know, let's just take it easy here, fellas. So, I don't know. I think, you know, the more I think about it, this guy is going to be, let's say he's a second or third line winger. You know, what does that look like, your first year or your first games? Well, you're probably, I don't know,

mediocre contributor. I don't know, mediocre contributor. I don't know. Sometimes it just works. Sometimes you're cold coffee. Lightning strikes. Short period of time, even if you get one good game out of him in the series against Tampa. Shoot one in the net for us.

Just shoot one in. A big moment. I never thought I would sit here and say these words, but I kind of prefer us and Reese to Nye's. Like, if that's the choice. Well, there are people who responded to my lines with that, for sure.

I've not seen Matthew Nye's live, and Joshua has, so let's put way more stock into him. But kind of surprised that he said skating is a little bit of an issue. I think you mentioned lateral movement. Yeah. Which, I don't know, there's times I've seen him come off

and highlights off the wall or the boards and drive it to the net. And I'm like, I didn't see that part of him. But, God, we're talking about the highest level of NHL play with intensity. It's never fastest or faster than what we see in the first round. No, the first round playoffs is absolutely chaos. There's so many issues with this guy and his skating. I'm like, oh, you want to put him in at the height of the best hockey in the world? It's almost like, though, if you could not have any scrutiny on him, it would be okay. If you could say, let's all talk about Matthew Nyes after the full round, after he plays in all seven games or something because if

nothing happens some nights nothing happens for a lot of people a lot of nights and it's okay right like acid reset a good game last night sometimes we don't say his name for two months okay to have that conversation but you can't be eliminated after the seven right that's not an easy it's an it's a relevant conversation no No, no, no, you're right. It's over. There's bigger issues going on right now. But I guess the point is, like, I don't want to sit here after two games and be like, if Nyes is the reason they've won or lost,

the best players haven't done enough. It's great. It can't come down to the performance of this kid. He needs to be a guy who either adds something or can't add something, and he's a filler in slot 9, 10, 11. Good point. I don't know. Like, it's –

Listen, it's – You don't want to depend on him. See, that's not on nize. I turn that around on Kyle Dubas and Brandon and Sheldon and say, it's not that he couldn't do a 9, 10, or 11 on the depth chart. It's that you left a hole at number two or three on the left side, and you got desperate enough to need a college kid to come in and think that he there's a possibility that he could he could fill that void and he didn't but they

might be right yeah you're right and it's go big or go home let's gamble here yeah but if it doesn't work out and he's he's, and you've left that spot. Like, you covered yourself in so many areas. You went and got McCabe to fill in for Muzzin. You got depth on the third and fourth line. But you left that hole. O'Reilly wasn't enough? I don't know.

I don't know. And is he a left winger? Is he more comfortable at the center ice position? I don't know. So many questions. For sure. But that's where they've left themselves a little bit vulnerable.

You know who's having a great time because of that is old Cali Yarncroft. Does he ever look like he's having fun? After he scored the goal that came back, I thought he might kiss Austin. When Austin did score, he's the guy who's just like, we score every game. We score.

This is awesome. Best job in the world. The expression on his face is, oh, my God, I've won the lottery. Yeah, exactly. He's actually a guy who's been playing on the third line in Nashville his whole career. And he's like, hockey can feel like this. Happens every game. Why didn't they get me an Austin Matthews in Nashville?

Yeah, I should have bought one of these a long time ago. Like Philip Forsberg. I'd be making $8 million a year. But the case for Jaron Kropp, well, there's a number of cases for him, but one of them is that if Matthews and Marner attract all the attention and he finds himself open to shoot it, he can shoot it. He rips it. He's probably just never played with anyone who's created any space

the way these guys do, and now he's like, this is shinny. It takes a while for him to get it loaded up sometimes, though really has to get down on that stick low and i don't know how much time and space this guy's gonna have and and the tendency for frontline guys is that they have to create their own space and he's just not that physical guy he's not gonna create his own so he's just not that physical guy to do that. No, he's not going to create his own space. So he's going to go and skate around until he finds areas of the ice. Until those guys make areas. And when it gets blocked off, I'm going to take, you know that family circus cartoon? The worst cartoon.

Where there's lines, but you see the dotted lines all over the place. That's Yarncroft going to look for empty space in the playoffs. You hit on a hot button. This is what I actively hate that family circus so much that i can't even focus on hockey right now uh i hate it with the little kids running around the backyard how did this get this man has made a career off of this anyway i have no idea what you're talking all right doesn't matter so you know what i think though kipper i think that you're making such a good point about the first round and like this leaves team will

get stronger as they if they were to go deeper in playoffs when people are more tired there's more injuries the first round no room have to create it the best players have to make unbelievable plays the goal that they score in game seven

the Leafs scored the Marner to Matthews, they both touch it for a quarter second and Riley finishes it. So elite, so elite. And you have to do that a lot. I think a guy like Jarnkrok would have more success in the third round. You know, when there is, it's a little bit less,

you know, make something happen. The first round is just, like the first game of the first round, you're like strapped into a motorcycle. It's the John Boyce cocaine out of a helicopter on a motorcycle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's what it feels like.

It feels like you're going 100 miles an hour on a motorcycle with no bucket. Yeah. And it's flying around. Your most exhilarating thing in the world, the most dangerous thing. Everybody gets smoked. And then it becomes hockey later.

Yes. Second round, it settles in. Every other night, it's hockey. Yeah. First round. A bit of a buckaboo for the local team. For the local team. It'll be...

I know you guys did that on your panel last night in the Leaf game on what that lineup's going to look like in the first round. I think your article on sportsnet.ca touched on the roster. Yeah. I'm fascinated by the process to get to that finished product. For me or for the Leafs? For the Leafs. And how it ultimately will fall in place.

What do you think of Simmons? Where is Ryan O'Reilly in all of this? For sure. Simmons. in all of this for sure um simmons uh listen i i there's some frustration with wayne simmons in terms of you know a little nervousness on will he go out there and take a penalty i mean there's a scrum i think he got pulled off last night as the only one they ended up taking the goodest okay i mean in the past there have been situations when he's taken some penalties we showed some simmons highlights last night that you're talking about uh sam cosentito had him in his lineup and

it's like him just like slew footing guys and taking minors you know so that's one that's one part of it but you know there's certain nights i'd rather have wayne simmons in there than zach uh aston reese yeah i i get the idea i i don't it is unfortunate but it's tough for him to keep up i i get it tonight aston reese has been pretty good yeah but he goes in 70 games stop right there okay because the point i want to make is that I'm watching him last night, and I'm watching a player who thinks he's going to go out there and score goals. Yeah. And let me tell you something.

From someone that's done it all, from being a top goal scorer in junior to being a fourth guy slug, that's a dangerous thing for any player to think that he is gonna turn himself into something now in the last little while now i'm 29 and i'm a goal scorer yes now all of a sudden i'm gonna be the guy who's gonna just find loose areas and i'm gonna i'm gonna wait for that pass to go in on a breakaway. And it's not him. And the mindset should be that if you put a puck off your ass for a goal, it's like a cherry on top. But for Aston Reese now to prepare himself for a battle against the Tampa Bay

Lightning in the first round and he's thinking about ways to score goals. Not a good thing for the Toronto Maple Leafs. No, I think that's a wonderful point. You know, that's been my complaint about this Leafs team in past years is the lack of identity for a fourth line where you didn't have guys who went, I'm a fourth liner. It was Joe Thornton, it was Jason Spezza, it was even Wayne Simmons for a while.

It was, you know you know marlo or whoever you had down there being like i'm not really a fourth liner though like i'm on the fourth line but i'm not really a fourth liner it's like no i want someone and he was a big scorer in ncaa yeah i don't know he might have led college in scoring his last year and i'm watching back ass and reese yeah yeah like 30 goals or something insane And I'm watching a fourth liner last night thinking he's going to pull off a Forsberg move. It was the only move he had. The guy was hanging off his back.

It was a good try. It was. It's a good try. It's a good move. He was hanging on the... I get your point. It's a point about what a guy prepares to provide for the team in playoffs

and sees himself being the next guy who scores the sneaky two, the Nick Paul, the whatever. Yes. I just want you to get it deep and run into people. Play in that end of the ring. Piss people off. Finish your check. Get people to go, who was that?

It's me. I'm coming after you. Every shift I'm going to be in your face. You better focus on me because i am coming at you which is why like the additions that's how fourth liners should think yeah i don't get that as aston reese lafferty is on top of guys right with his speed oh he's flies i know you talked about him last night and nola charry will come in he'll piss people off. Good, good, good stuff. It's fun for me watching the Leafs for a bajillion years now,

watching a guy like Luke Shen come in here with this really good Leafs team and just be like, stop that. Don't do that. What you just did, don't do that anymore. I loved it. Luke. He grabbed Kachuk. He grabbed Gudis.

He went up to a couple people and was like, that's your good. When the play's dead right in front of my goal my goalie go away we're going into a scrum yeah i'm pushing you i'm shoving you i'm gonna give you a little just go back to bench something he absolutely buried someone last night yes and i was like nice one lou can aston reese do that in the offensive zone no you know no no he's the guy getting buried. We did send text messages last night about Shen, and like, guys, there's concerns. Like, having that element comes with having... A price.

Yeah. Yeah. Where there was one last night, it might have been Montour, who's walked around him or somewhere, Lomberg blew by him on a rush, and I was like, oh. Yeah, yeah.

The glove happened to the lineup. Okay, one more footnote off the Aston Reese breakaway slash penalty shot. Okay, horrible call on the penalty shot, I thought. He got his play off. He wanted the Forsberg. He got it. That's not a penalty shot in my opinion. You know what's funny?

But the worst one Was The stepping on the stick Call What happened there? They should have put just the stick in the penalty box The official puts up his arm After Willie Nylander steps on a stick That's already on the ice

And then the penalty is called And then he's going back Holding? Yeah holding he saw our boy Maurice lose his mind earlier and he's like there's no way

I can skate over there and tell him it was a trip he's like it was a hold I swear to god it was a hold it was like the up to me in preseason where he kicked out Real Mudo and he should have been like I shouldn't have done that I should have walked ituto and he should have been like, I shouldn't have done that. I should have walked it back. That ref should have been like, I've had another minute to think.

I love her. He had the hand and everyone's like, oh, it was a hold. He had the hand up the second he stepped on the stick. What is wrong with an official going back and saying, you know what? My bad. No call. Let's just play. I have had moments with my son where I've like flipped out.

Then I've been like, oh, you actually didn't mean to do that. And I've had to like walk back my temper. That's the ref to me where it's like, you just got to say I got that one wrong. You didn't do it. I had a moment. We all made a mistake. But yeah, that was a bad call.

I thought in general they were no good last night. But that's most nights. We don't spend a lot of time on them. Move on. A couple of news and notes. Your Islanders look like they're good to go now. You know what's funny is... Thanks to Peter Engvall.

Peter Engvall? Peter. Because no one bothered to learn his name while he was here. Do we miss Peter? Oh, my God. Sammy? Kipper, do we miss Peter? I really hope the Leafs don't miss him in the first round.

No, not going to miss him. You see the goal he scored last night? He banged it home? No, he batted a backhand from the hash marks, and the goalie let it under his arm. What's he got now? Five out of... 17 goals.

18. Since being an Islander, he's got like almost half a dozen goals. Yeah. I mean, they don't have anyone. They don't have anyone to go score. You know what's funny is the X and Y axes of the expected goals thing, the Islanders are the world's most average team. They're just average.

They're okay. They're fine. What I will say is the first game he played, he was very good, very noticeable. And then for the second and the third game, he disappeared. Butchie. Butch goring. Time drop. Never thought we would have had a Butch g. Butch Goring.

Never thought we would have had a Butch Goring drop. So he had seven points in 12 games, five in 12 for them. What a terrific breakdown of Peter Engvall. Peter. He is from now on. He's Peter to me. Peter's crushing it. The Rangers re-signed Philip Heidel to a four-year deal with an AAV of 4.435. That's a lot of decimal places.

I feel like that's a bit of a... I think that's light for a guy that could have a great playoff. And he's big. I thought that was a bit of a steal. I was surprised. It's a total steal. Like, every Rangers game I watch, he's popping big time. You know what that might do for him, though?

Just off the top of my head, maybe that walks him exactly to UFA. Yeah, it sets him up for a big one. Like some guys do that, right? Like, alright, I'll take last, but walk me to UFA and then we'll see what we can do. Is it time we get Bill Guerin back on the show? Because his Minnesota Wild, what a huge game.

I feel like there'll be, you know, I guess this is just the product of being the Minnesota Wild, but what they're doing a like i guess this is just a product of being the minnesota wild but what they're doing right now is incredibly underrated also they haven't had their best player who scored only the only guy who scored their goals and stanley sat on him yeah and like how long has he been out and they're seven two and one in their last 10 they've won three in a row they're atop the central division like they are that's an impressive group and the way they play like that game they played against the leafs was one of the most boring shutdown games but like they're going into a series against seattle or against like i guess it would be seattle right

yeah or winnipeg still gonna shake out i don't know man they could do a little damage uh speaking of goaltending with the minnesota wild and I got my article today in the Toronto Star. You can find it on my Twitter handle, Real Kipper. Who's their starting goaltender? Because some guy named Gustafson is on fire. Sick trade sense. Mark-Andre Fleury is playing pretty well also. So they're in that same dilemma

as the Leafs. You want the Stanley Cup experience to start off, don't you? I don't know, man. They traded Philip Gustafson. His numbers are gaudy. He's 20-9. He's 20-9.

201 goals against. 933 in 35 games. Yeah, he's been among the handful of best goalies in the NHL this year. They're going to start him. Oh, my God, yeah. You have to. Well, so the year that Murray won his second cup or first cup, maybe Fleury watched the first round, stepped in, won a couple of rounds,

then Murray took it back over in the final, I think. Like, you love having flurry as the backup yeah they made the switch against ottawa i think in the conference final yeah so you love having flurry as a guy that if you it doesn't go well for a couple games you go to the guy who has proven he can step in and do it seems to be a pretty good natured guy right like if he has to start on the bench, I think he'd live with that. It's just, come on, you look at the Central Division, you see Minnesota at the top. I'm like, wow. This is coming off of buying out Ryan Suter and Zach Parise.

Right? This is supposed to trend the other way. Yeah. Yeah, right now with uh the abs have one game in hand but three points behind what do you got on jonathan taves well that he's he had some comments about kane did you see that no that he was talking about how he was pretty disappointed or pretty surprised that he got traded and all this stuff and then he wants to maybe play before the end of the year there's a big thing i thought you guys would have seen that my bad no clip though on that i did hear him a little bit he mentioned that he actually looks good in the uniform of the new york rangers

he said that yeah for for pat kane yeah i think deep down these guys have been hurt so badly by the chicago blackhawks that's what i think i think so too that's such a good point cave said this may be my last few weeks as a blackhawk um earlier this week so you know it's tough right like i don't know if they could have done it any different they pretty clearly stated they were rebuilding right gave the eyes the opportunity i'm sure to go somewhere else The guys wanted to stick around, it seems like. They got Kane what he wanted. Here is the most indirect quote of all time. I would say for myself, personally, probably, I was definitely shocked when talking about Kane.

Only a hockey player can give that quote. A little bit indirect. Okay, just like that. Two hours are indirect. Okay. Just like that. Two hours are over. Wow. This time tomorrow we'll be preparing for our show at 3 p.m. Eastern. Let's gank this Merrick slot.

Joshua Cloak and Mike Rupp. Thanks for joining us. We're back tomorrow at our regularly scheduled program, Real Kipper and Born. See you then.