Real Kyper & Bourne - Next Man Up in Newark

Episode Date: March 7, 2023

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee tee up tonight's Leafs game against the Devils, Matt Murray's return and the complicated goalie battle, the Leafs' puzzle of defensive pairings and who can step up in Tavares' and O'Reilly's absences. They are joined by general manager of the Devils Tom Fitzgerald, who discusses constructing a contending team, the process of acquiring Timo Meier and Jack Hughes' development (20:50). Later, NHL Network's Mike Kelly breaks down why Auston Matthews' offensive production is down, the Leafs lack of playmaking from the center position and teams he thinks can be sneaky contenders (43:21). Finally, NHL Network's Brian Lawton weighs in on how the salary cap affected this year's deadline, Jon Cooper benching his top line in Tampa and who improved the most from their deadline moves (1:07:13). The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

This is Real Kipper and Bourne on Sportsnet 590 The Van. We'll get you ready for the Toronto Maple Leafs New Jersey tonight. Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne, Derek Brandeo, Dave Sispumbas, Sammy McKee for the next two hours. A few line shuffles bingo bangle balls are out and a very daunting schedule ahead for the maplers which starts in new jersey 19 games if you want to touch on the schedule right off the bat jb i think if i'm not mistaken maybe as many as nine or ten will come against non-playoff teams but this particular stretch is will be considered their toughest of all the remaining games yeah you know i don't think of

the leafs as a fast team. Not a, you know, like they do a lot of skill things. They move the puck fast. They play fast. But I don't think they're the fastest players. The next five teams coming up here are maybe the fastest in the league. You got the Devils, then the Oilers,

then the Sabres, the Avalanche, and the Hurricanes. So it is going to be a pace fest out there and a great test for Toronto. And again, remaining after that, our teams that are on the outside looking in, including the Detroits, the Columbuses, the Montreals, Florida. Florida, but will we get a good idea of maybe the character of these guys without the likes of Ryan O'Reilly in the lineup? And tonight, John Tavares sits out.

I mean, what do you look for? This is a game where they will go in as underdogs tonight. Yeah. Massive on the betting scale. I shouldn't say massive, but they're clear underdogs in as underdogs tonight yeah they massive on the betting scale i should not say massive but they're clear underdogs clear underdogs and i don't think anybody really believes that they can go in there and and and beat this club which by the way is what i do how hard are the devils two and one yeah so everything stacks up against them so what do you want to see tonight if it's if it's not just about wins and losses what what do you want to see tonight? If it's not just about wins and losses,

what else do you want to see tonight? I think some of the greatest success the Leafs have had over Keefe's tenure has been when they've randomly called up guys from the Marlies and they've got success out of them, whether it's Holmberg or Steve's or McMahon or whatever. They've got guys to play above their proper slot and have success in small samples and i want to see that the guys they traded for can be that too i don't want it to just be that mcmahon and steves can do it i want to see that lafferty can go play with you

know go play 18 minutes and matter i want achari to be able to play 16 minutes 18 was a bit aggressive but play a lot of minutes and make a difference. So I think it's a good showcase for the new guys who have had trouble working their way into a good lineup to say, hey, we can play too. Sammy, where's your bar for a game like tonight? Tonight, I would say my expectations are quite low going into it. I think this is a scheduled loss for the leafs in in all honesty you know the them coming east from a grueling four or three game road trip with injuries and

all this stuff and then them having to go to the the devils before they come home wouldn't this usually be a home game like that first game back like a couple days after this is very unusual it's very odd for them and how often do they go to the Devils twice in one year? It's just a very, very odd one for me. I'm expecting them to make, I think what my dream scenario is to see Samsonov steal one for the Leafs tonight. Is for him to be really, really good. And him give them a huge chance to win. And them win a tight one because Samsonov's really good.

And kind of get that goalie battle going. You know? Like him put his nose in front and say, hey, I'm still the starter here, Matt. I know you played well on Saturday. And have him go in and respond and play well and have them steal one in New Jersey. That's my ideal scenario.

I'm willing to start there as well. I think this is a huge test for Samsonov. Overall, we still believe in the grand scale of things. A good year for him. Put himself in the position for at least the last 19 games to say that the odds are favorable that you will start game one in the Stanley Cup playoffs. Mm-hmm.

But there is this one factor of his season that does not bode well when he starts on the road. He is not a 500 goalie on the road. And to Sam's point, a good effort tonight, maybe even finds a way to steal it as Sam is hopeful for, would kind of curtail that he can't win on the road feel. He goes down now two games under 500 and all of a sudden this storyline swells i read something yesterday about how the leafs would like

to see i forget who wrote it the least would like to see matt murray get on track because he's who they expected to be their starter and they want to see him ready to go for game one of the playoffs and you know i was kind of thinking about how much we've talked about samson off and i hadn't even really considered murray to be a threat for game one we have we have a clip of the coach talking about this kind of stuff if you uh yeah yeah i'll just add before you play it that if if the guy can't win on the road he can't be your number one he can't he's not your guy so you're right i think it's important to go and play well tonight okay let's go uh follow that up with Sheldon Keefe's comments. Kippers Clipper number one on his goalies.

Obviously, we're going to use both and keep both involved. I don't know if I would say it's going to be necessarily rotation, but both guys are definitely going to play games and get involved. Right now, obviously, we play today, and then we don't play again until Saturday, so a bit of a lighter load that way. So Samsonoff will go today. Murray will go Saturday.

And then we'll just sort of take it from there as the schedule starts to really heat up again. So, you know, it is definitely good to get Matt back. He got through the game. Like I said the other night, I thought, you know, his stats will take a hit in a game like that. Unfortunately, because he was outstanding for us and kept us in the game and made some incredible saves throughout and most importantly came out of the game feeling really good and healthy.

So that was kind of the last sort of hurdle for him is just to get into a game and all the stresses that come through playing in a game that are maybe difficult to replicate in a practice. And he got through that very well. So we'll just keep progressing with him. The last and most daunting hurdle, getting in a game for Matt Murray. That will forever be his biggest hurdle. And he said it's not going to be a rotation at the start of that clip,

which surprised me. Implying that Samsonov would carry the ball? That's what I was going to be a rotation at the start of that clip which surprised me implying that samsonov would carry the ball that's what i was gonna ask which see what's he implying by that exactly i didn't get enough to really read one way or the other i really play the first like 10 seconds again is that okay guys yeah obviously we're gonna use both and keep both involved i don't know if i would say it's going to be necessarily rotation but both guys are definitely going to use both and keep both involved. I don't know if I would say it's going to be necessarily rotation, but both guys are definitely going to play games and get involved right now. See, all I got out of that is that we won't go one and one.

Yeah, whoever's playing well. But I will go two and one. Yeah. And then even to that effect, you know, it won't be a rotation necessarily protects you against if you feel like a guy's hot and you want to roll with him, you will. You're going to get a test. You know, those five next games, they have the first best offense,

the third best offense, the fourth best offense, the sixth best offense. Like, they're playing the top seven offenses in the NHL in the next five games. Top five in their next, whatever. Shut up, Justin. We got you, buddy. Obviously, injuries have played this goalie scenario out in and of itself.

But I really get a sense, even these last 19 games, when he has both of them now healthy, that the vision that they had all along was that just they didn't really believe one guy was going to run weight with it one way or another that they all along they had this feel of little from columbia little from columbia exactly that they thought that they were good like maybe it's a mental thing that they worry about one guy feeling like he is the guy but i i think i don't think they thought they'd get two good seasons i think all along they thought they were gonna just rotate them on a

on a short leash yeah and that's where they are today. No, I know. We are no further ahead than we were at game one. Yeah. We're in the exact same spot. The only thing that we're further ahead on is that we believe they can both stop the puck at a league average rate this season, at this age, at this point in their career. They've both had Samsonov a lot more, but they've both had good stretches, stretches i guess maybe stretches is stretching it but they both had times in the regular season when they've been very very good and i think for sheldon and kyle and brendan that's that's enough to say i just need small windows of you to be good and when you're not i I'm going to pull you out

and I'm going to put the other guy in. I'm going to give you guys some fun stats on Ilya Samsonov's season. So he's ninth, or sorry, we'll say he's 11th in save percentage this year, which I know you're not surprised by that. He's third best in the NHL in slot save percentage, first in inner slot save percentage.

First in the league on inner slot save percentage. Now, quality starts. He doesn't have as many. He's outside the top 20. And steals. Steals is a stat where you outperform your expected goals and your team wins. Zero.

He has zero steals in the season. Zero steals in the season. Matt Murray has two. Yeah. Two steals? Who's the league leader in steals uh last i checked it was sam montembeau from montreal who's had a very good season actually throw those out the window then i mean that just means he's getting peppered every single night yes yes yeah that's true too with zero expectations bingo but you know no steals

just saying you know he hasn't. Sam wants to see him go in there. And I think, and if I was, you know, anecdotally, if you're talking about steals, Matt Murray would have two steals this year. A game against Dallas and a game against Nashville in Toronto when he was unbelievable. So. And I take it Matt Murray may need steal number three Saturday night. Can't see oil. Like. All that team does is score touchdowns. Should he have announced that he's starting against Connor McDavid Tuesday?

Tell him five minutes before he starts so he can have some good rests at night. It's so true. I don't need to know that I've got to do something i dread a week in advance tell me morning of it i'll figure it out not to look ahead to that game but i'll be it's gonna be really fascinating to see how the leafs sort of respond after what happened last was that last wednesday that's the yeah they took the biggest beating i can recall yeah like that maybe not by scoreline wise or whatever but just in general they have never looked more out of a game than they looked in that game and it was the first game with all their new guys and you had to get

an excuse excuse but it was and the burner john tavara's will be back in that game so sammy yes get get through tonight don't go sad listen they're losing tonight boys you can listen to our show for two hours oh no no i'm getting the leafs tonight this is the type of game they win you never get you never get them at plus 115 the least of the most public team ever so plus money leafs is a very rare night plus money leafs opportunity for new guys to get more opportunity everyone's going to be humming in about seven minutes we're going to welcome in general manager of the new jersey devils tom fitzgerald former toronto maple leaf as well do you remember that very well yes no sammy you remember fitzgerald being a leaf that was right before the lockout yeah like he had a

couple he played quite a bit i remember he played in the playoffs quite a bit for them a couple years what years are we talking like oh three or four 2000 okay so that was my three 2003 that was when the nhl was shown on outdoor life network once a week in the u.s i miss those games yeah yeah no i remember him and he uh yeah he's a good player bottom six guy could chip in with a goal here and there. They're going to have a different look. Timo Meyers settled in nicely for New Jersey. Let's get Sheldon Keefe's thoughts on the last time they played the Devils without Timo. Yeah, I just thought it was wild and loud. Competitive at the time.

You know, I think, I mean, they still have lots of reason to be excited about their team here, but certainly at that time, I think they had a good streak going at the time, and they were really rolling as a group, and the crowd was feeding off it, so I remember lots of energy in the building. We've had a good chunk of that here throughout this trip, so certainly Vancouver was a loud environment and lots of energy in the building. I suspect it would be the same tonight.

That was the game where the beer rained down. Remember the three disallowed goals? Right. Yes, yes. They got all the breaks in the world. Yeah, and they beat them 2-1 to end their 13-game winning streak at the time. We do have Mike Kelly tonight, so I'm going to do a little nerd piece here. They were doing okay.

The best lines in the NHL by expected goals, 4%. So, you know, most things happen going the good way. The Devils have a bunch of them. Tatar, Heashier, and Mercer, third best line in the NHL. Holla, Bratt, and Hughes are in that top 15. Stastny, Natchez, and Svechnikov. I mean, they got three lines in the top 15 in the nhl this year so again hands full for i think we get lily tonight are we getting lily we are riley lily all right yeah listed as the bottom pair at practice which i love when coaches start

to do that yeah i think i i am favorable of riley and lilligren together yeah i thought they had a couple good games when remember when riley first came back from injury and they played those two together i like them not as the top pair though which is crazy because you know he's your highest paid guy what do they have as a top pair their fellows mckay brody yeah like i like that a lot as a top pair camper you're looking at me just as a top pair usually it comes with some sort of threat offensively guys mckay's been buzzing a little bit oh i mean the reality is the leafs have i would say a few guys who you would call a number two or three d-man d-man but yeah when riley's not playing well

they don't have a number one yes so your pair always looks different when you don't have that guy that's headman or that's you know pronger we can focus on mercer and hughes and nico he sure but dougie hamilton comes in with what good example 60 points guys no he doesn't does he really my god i don't know what i'm not actually calling your bluff i'm saying i don't know like this team he has 61 points oh i was wrong you're right i was wrong your facts 18 goals and 43 points so far 18 goals that is a true threat. Who didn't want him last?

Where was he? And if you'll recall, I think Kyle Dewis loves him too. Oh, he does. I think he's always been on that Doug Hamilton hunt when every team thought he was like weird or didn't fit in with their team. And he's like, no, no no don't confuse weird for just being really highly intelligent yeah 100 yeah like i it is unbelievable that it's stuck with this guy that he someone said he like likes to go to museums and now he's like the museum guy and yeah i don't know if you remember this or not but he was traded with he was picked with a uh one of the picks that was traded for phil kessel sagan and dougie hamilton were the two picks that the leaf unbelievable ouch that's an ouchy there

that was a little bird if we're gonna focus on the leaf blue line let's go to sheldon keith on his thoughts on oh no okay it's ryan o'reilly yeah oh i thought he meant it was just a little update on ryan o'reilly did Did he? He did. Okay. Then my apologies. I thought it was Morgan O'Reilly, but let's focus on Ryan O'Reilly with his comments. Yeah, he actually met with a specialist yesterday and ended up having surgery here this morning,

which was, in a lot of cases, this is sort of how it goes. It's just to stabilize the fracture a little bit more. Everything, I was told, went really well in timelines's four weeks. So, you know, we'll give him that time, of course. And like I was saying yesterday, the nature of the injury, I think we'll see him back on skates pretty quickly.

And that's a good sign. And then, of course, we'll welcome him back when he's good and ready. You'd love to see him play, what, four games before playoffs? What is four weeks exactly that takes him to april 4th maybe and then the season ends on the 12th have a look yep jb for us and i i think there's two games maybe three games in that yeah i'll get you one sec here we are at so when you get it april they let their last game is aprilth. So let's say he's back on the 4th. They play the 4th against Columbus.

Okay. They play the 6th, the 8th, the 10th, the 11th, and the 13th. Oh, that's a lot of hockey. Six games conceivably. So he should get five. He should be able to get four to five. Yeah. You don't need to jam all of them in there.

Leafs season ends with a bang. Bruins, Canadians, Panthers, Lightning, Rangers. So hopefully everything is clear and clean and, you know, no infections and all of that. Have you broken any digits? No, I haven't. But I remember this one story where I got traded with Steve Larmer and he took a heavy slash off of gary roberts and broke his finger and they told him

four to six weeks with a pin now steve larmer had this consecutive streak in chicago and we have chicago now in 10 days since he broke his finger and he's just like i ain't missing that game yeah so he he played with a 10 days after his surgery to put a pin in and there's some guys to this day on our team think that that he he was so uncomfortable with the pin that he actually took the pin out with a pair of pliers in the dressing room. Really? And I don't think that that's true. But that's the story. That's the myth of how tough he was.

But probably have a doctor in there somewhere shaving it down because it was sticking out of his finger but listen if it was the playoffs well i don't i don't think ryan o'reilly would be gone four weeks yeah so i broke my thumb i took a hard slash off a face off broken thumb and i didn't know it was broken at the time it was playoffs for us i was our leading scorer i was like i'm gonna play so we ended up i switched to a stick like an aluminum stick with no vibration. And they, you know, they had a little splint. So it's sticking out while I was holding it.

But like, you know, I played. It's a matter for me with fingers. It's like, you can play, you know, does he want to jeopardize his hand and his future contracts and all that? Who knows? But he'll be able to play. Faceoffs also a big part of his game maybe do we have tom fitzgerald hey tom really appreciate you joining us we know you're getting ready for a big game

tonight but uh thanks for your time uh how things going good uh i'm not really getting ready for the Oh, listen. Good luck. Long days. Long days. Sure. Good luck grabbing like three quarters of your colleagues as a general manager. It's like, I don't do that on game day. All right. Thank God.

A little meditation on game day is welcoming. Before we get into some detail about your hockey club, just give us, you know, the view from 60,000 feet, from going from a team that was on the outside looking in for the last few years to being a genuine contending team now. Well, the 60,000-foot view would be... You know what, Tom? We're just going to get a cleaner line for you.

We'll call you right back, okay? Okay, we'll get the general manager of New Jersey back on the line momentarily, and we'll see if we can clean up. Just before we had him, we were talking about O'Reilly, so I'll squeeze it in maybe with a bad hand this incentivizes them to keep him on the second line with tavara so someone else can take face offs so he's not coming home and or you know jumping in and putting a lot of pressure on that

it might be an incentive to keep on the second line rather than go three yeah i who knows how it's gonna look i mean I mean, we're going to get a completely different look for obvious reasons with no Tavares and O'Reilly in the lineup. Tavares cold must still be acting up today. You see once, you know, even in April that he's got to lock something in, eh, those last five games when it comes to the lines that he envisions for game one. Yeah, and so it's a good time for him to come back.

The good news is less games to get hurt closer to playoffs coast through till then okay tom sorry about that but your overall thoughts on the season so far yeah yeah my bad that's that was my end um well i was saying like when ray shiro came in yeah geez i don't know eight years ago his vision was to to to really become one of the youngest teams we We were the oldest team in the league. So you do that with trades and obviously gaining future assets. And then that plan never really – we really wanted to get off track with it. But then you get to a point where you're drafting first and you're drafting a Nico and a Jack and winning lotteries with Luke Hughes.

But really, at the end of the day, you know what? When you have the backing of ownership to move this thing forward and they want to spend money, you go out and you get a Dougie Hamilton and then a Palat. You know, you make a couple of trades for Marino and Holla and take on some money. And next thing you know, you become a cap team. You know, we just felt like with the pillars of players that we have,

Jack and Nico and Jesper Bratt, that finding the support system around them would benefit everybody. Last year, I think, was a year where, you know, the data told us where we were going. The data showed that we were trending, being a good where, you know, the data told us where we were going. The data showed that we were trending, being a good team, and comparing to teams, you know, really good teams in the past when they were at this stage. And, you know, so we felt that, you know, going into the summer,

you know, how can we further support our young pillars? And, you know, going out and making the trade for Vanacek just to secure the goaltending situation and allowing Mackenzie Blackwood to grow and have support. Finding the championship pedigree and Andre Palat on really what it takes to win. From every minute you walk in, to the minute you walk in the room, to the minute you leave. So having that backing. But the reality is this goal was set eight years ago. I was, you know, fortunate enough to carry it out.

Here we are. You know, we're just kind of plugging away. And I think our coaching staff has done an extremely good job of keeping these guys grounded, focused, and getting better each day they show up to the rink. Tom, I think the passive fan, or at least the, you know, not the hockey obsessives that follow the league are well aware of, you know, Jack Hughes and even Heashier and what Timo Meier can do. Is there anyone on your team or a number of guys maybe who, for people who don't watch your team every night, you just think this player is really effective for you guys

or maybe deserves a little bit more credit than they get. Sure. I mean, I think, you know, bringing in John Marino, like this guy's a good hockey player. You know, he just, he cares about defending and he can move the puck. He's just very efficient with his all-around game. So, you know, adding that on the right side to go with Dougie Hamilton and Damon Severson really was a no-brainer for us, and we controlled him for another few years, which was great, and he's still young. I thought, you know,

what Eric Holla has brought to the table each and every day, you know, he's versatile. He can move up and play with Jack Hughes like he did and actually, you know, he's versatile. He can move up and play with Jack Hughes like he did and actually, you know, help support him. Or he can anchor our third line. Great on face-offs. He's a very good penalty killer and can slide in on your second power play. So the versatility that he brings and the experience,

this is a guy who's never not made the playoffs. So, you know, those small little moves, I think, have been really big for us. Obviously, Vanacek in the goal has played well up to this point. He's won us a lot of hockey games during our stretch, especially during that 13-game stretch. Even a Brendan Smith in the locker room, you know, and what he brings on the ice, that hard-nosed grittiness.

But the leadership he can bring in the locker room is just, you know, you just can't have enough of those guys around. I'm probably forgetting people. Obviously, Andre Pallott with his experience and pedigree of winning has been huge. But I think the biggest part is the growth of our homegrown players. You know, Jack, Nico, Bratter, even Dawson Mercer. You know, you look at Boquist who's starting to come on.

And then we've got our homegrown fourth line, Miles Wood, Mike McLeod, the BMW line, we call it, Nate Bastian. Adding a guy like Curtis Lazar for the depth, the versatility, and playoff experience was just really a no-brainer for us. We're joined by Tom Fitzgerald, generalel general manager of new jersey tom we just went through i think one of the more entertaining nhl trade deadlines we saw some big names

some big pieces but when it comes to the most impactful piece everybody says timo meyer can you just give us a cole's notes of the experience of going after one of the highest, you know, most sought after guys and landing him for you and what that experience was like? Sure. You know, I have to thank Mike Greer for, you know, how we work together on this. And I know Mike was a lot busier than me dealing with multiple teams, to say the least. But you know what? We've identified players who we feel can fit with us, who give us the best chance to win,

who can add value, and probably the most important thing, can grow with our core and our pillars. You know, Timo Meyers, 26 years old. He's still young. He's a hell of a player. We're excited to have him. The process was long because, you know, you build up really

if the team was going to move a player, then you find out they are willing to move him. And then, okay, what are the costs? What are the pieces? What's the framework look like? And from the get-go, we've always felt that we've had, we really believe we have pieces in our organization that can get deals done like this.

So, you know, you know your first is going in with it. You know a top prospect, a roster player or two. We really felt like we definitely could be in on this. And then once we got going on the talks and really what some of the pieces would look like, we definitely felt like, geez, this could happen. And then you start getting into the pieces, and piece goes in, piece comes out. What's this look like? Does a draft pick involve?

And it was long, you know what, but that's how these deals get done. and peace goes in, peace comes out. What's this look like? There's a draft pick involved. It was long, you know what, but that's how these deals get done. I probably felt very comfortable on Saturday night, last Saturday night or two Saturday nights ago, after speaking with Mike late, my time, not too late his time, and then we consummated the deal on Sunday. You know, for Timo to grow with your team, you've got to get him on a long-term deal.

Anything you want to announce on the Real Kipper and Bourne show right now? No, that's, you know, I'm a real believer that the business side of it will take care of itself. You know, getting Timo here, one, getting him healthy. You know, he's healthy now. He's here. You know, really want to just inject him into, you know, not only the locker room, but our entire staff. You know, we do believe we've got the best athlete care game in the league.

The coaching staff. I've said it over and over again, guys. Like, you know, everybody has this image of New Jersey, but they really don't know New Jersey. We're a one-stop shop in here at the Prudential Center. Practice games, you know, the Prudential Centre. Practice games. The airport's seven minutes down the road. We're in our bed every night by one o'clock when we're traveling throughout

the East. We've got three bus trip games. And living here. The suburbs are beautiful. A lot of our guys live down in Jersey City or Hoboken. You're a ferry away from Manhattan for dinner at night. It's a hidden gem.

So our hope is that it'll sell itself for Timo. Understand really what we are. He knows what we are as a hockey team. But is this the place where he wants to live long term? And we think it will be. Yeah, it's a top underrated place in the nhl for all the reasons you outlined totally agree there um you know i want to ask you about lindy ruff coming in to join your team this you're not this year but you know he gets the chance it's fire lindy it's sorry lindy

at the beginning you know you had mentioned earlier about how the data had pointed to you guys that you were a pretty good team the year before i know you guys are at least partially involved in some of that you have a skilled fast team lindy played in a you know a pretty good team the year before. I know you guys are at least partially involved in some of that. You have a skilled, fast team. Lindy played in a heavier, tougher era. How has Lindy adapted and changed with you guys to have such success with this particular group? Great question. When I set out to find that next coach,

the list was big. And then you dwindle it down, and then you have more talks. And you try to find people who are seeing the game like I do as the manager. I was looking for a partner, to be quite honest.

My background is probably more coaching, back-to-the-nose, and strategizing on the ice, which I love because of my playing days. I really love that side of it. But finding someone who saw the game the same as I do but also could challenge each other. I look at some of the great organizations in different sports.

That manager-coaching relationship, I think, that puts teams over the top. So that's what I was looking for from the get-go. And then you break that down even more, and you look at what Lindy has done throughout his throughout his career you know what he did in dallas with those young players jamie ben and and and taylor uh um oh my god say again you know guys like that right and what he did in buffalo with that young team back in the day. And it just felt like he understood development and understood nurturing and understood mistakes. He understood, you know, like the noose isn't loose too tight all the time

with players and make a mistake, you're out. You know, having patience. And we both set out and had a game plan from that shortened season. This is, we're going to allow these kids to make mistakes and learn from it and grow and not worry about X's and winning. That'll come. And then the next year was, okay, the accountability gets a little tighter with guys, but we still want to let them run.

Let the horses run and let them understand what the game's all about. It's a game of mistakes, but limiting the same ones over and over again on how you get better. Last year was, okay, now accountability is a big part of where we're at. But I needed somebody who saw that same vision as I did, and Lindy was that guy. So, yeah, we talked about last year everything that we were shown, the data-wise, was we're getting better.

But this year was was more cultural change, additions that we made, and really surrounding what we've established, what we've built up through the draft with the players we've mentioned to support them and push them and understand really what it takes to win. Gee, Tom, just listening to your words, I can't help but thinking that you're talking about Jack Hughes. And, you know, especially in this era where we all want instant gratification,

first pick overall, can you speak a little bit to his growth and how you and Lindy have gone about that, especially watching him go from young, potential superstar to an actual superstar. Well, yeah. I mean, when Ray Shero drafted Jack first overall, he came in, you know, expectations were he was going to play on our team. He wasn't committed to any college.

He was drafted in the OHL. That wasn't appealing to him. So I played in the World Championships prior to the draft, so he was playing against men and just felt that being in New Jersey would be the best place for him. How can we support him and his family from living to athlete care to workouts, things that he needed. He was a boy, you know.

He was a young boy, and it was a bit humbling, I would say, because the NHL is a hard league, and Jack realized that right away. But with that being said, I don't think any of us would change that path right now because I really believe and I think his family believes that he had to go through that to understand really what this league is all about. So when he says at the end of the year when he and I sit believe and I think his family believes that he had to go through that to understand really what this league's all about. So when he says at the end of the year when he and I sit down and talk, what surprised you? What was something that you really didn't see?

He says, I couldn't believe how good defensemen were, meaning how big, how mobile, how rangy, how little time and space you had. So if he didn't have that, I think that happens the next year, which would have been his first year. So I just think by just dropping him right in the deep end of the pool, I think we've all benefited from him because he really quickly understood what this league was about, what he needed to do, matter of fact, what he needed to do.

And then as you continue on after that first year, the season was delayed. Remember, we didn't get going in January. So he in particular had a – well, everybody else, but he needed an extension of his off-ice training in the summer. And I just thought that really benefited him. He came back. He had the bigger legs. He was thicker.

You just saw the growth in his body. And I just think those little things right there really helped him become the player he is. And he's just, he's on the watch. And he's a highly competitive kid. And he just, he doesn't want to walk the ice. He's so competitive. Yeah, he seems awfully energetic.

Last one for me, and we really appreciate your time again. Just your thoughts on the Toronto Maple Leafs coming up here. They had six new players at the deadline. Things have been a little rocky since all those additions. What are your thoughts on integrating players at the deadline? Can it be too many to sort of disrupt the flow of a team, or do you got to just kind of make the changes you got to make? Well, I think every team's different.

Every manager has a different philosophy. I don't look at any other team and what they've done. I've said this over and over again. Like, we're not a reactionary team. I'm not a reactionary person. So when we see the Eastern Conference doing what they did, building up to the deadline, we were just doing things that we felt were best for our organization

for the long haul. And Timo Meier was that. And even Lazare, because we control him. But for me, I've said this. I'm on record as saying this. You build your team in the summer, and you allow your team to grow together and work together during training camp like any team does. And Kipper, you know this as well.

It doesn't take two weeks to understand a system. There's a reason why teams say, we're going to reevaluate our team at the 20-game mark because it takes that long to really understand how your team is supposed to play a system. But adding at the deadline and adding pieces, I think what Kyle did was fantastic, the pieces he had.

You're adding different pieces. You're adding smart players that understand their roles. Understanding a new system shouldn't take them long. However, I just, like, I guess for us, you know, we've been putting along here pretty good, and I didn't really want to disrupt all that much. We didn't need to change all that much. And I've said this again, guys, our window's just opening. It's just opening.

We just opened it in the crack, and we've got plenty of years here to really figure things out. So hearing you say that, I get the sense that a guy like Luke Fox, or I'm sorry, Luke Fox is our Sportsnet CA guy. Luke Hughes, your fourth overall pick in 2021. Once his season's over, we may not see him like Sammy McKee has Matthew Nyes coming out of Minnesota and winning the consmite this year for the Leafs. Well, that's great.

No, I mean, our plan is, our plan is for Luke to turn pro whenever his season's over and integrate him with our group. But by no means is there pressure on this young man to jump in and be the savior or the guy who's going to put us over the top. Hey, listen, if he comes in and things snowball in the right direction,

it's gravy for us. It's going to be great. Same with Simone Nemech in the American League, if he was able to get a chance with his experience at the American League level. So we just feel very fortunate that we have two, along with Alexander Holtz, who's back in the American League and doing very well. We've got those guys in the hole waiting for their turn.

Hey, Tom, really appreciate your time, man. Thanks for doing this. All the best of luck to you and your team the rest of the season. Thanks, guys. Appreciate it. Anytime. Thank you. Take care. What a great interview.

Okay. So, Luke Hughes, I can think about, I don't think we'll ever see in the near future an impactful transition like a Kale McCarr, but this guy has a chance to be really special to this luke hughes which is people not familiar this is a brother of jack and and simone nemich too is another guy for them is an interesting note i just gotta say we've never had a gm on the on the show that loves their team as much as Tom Fitzgerald loves his team. I get it. I get it, too.

I mean, they're third in the NHL by points percentage. Two years ago, they were garbage. I mean, they were really bad. They were bottom five team. They were really bad. Really bad. They went from, like, really bad to really good. I mean, I can't remember a transition. You know, like, I've seen teams go from bad to good,

but it was like they were really bad, and now they're like, holy smokes. Good. Hey, before we go to break, I want to make sure we talk about the rivalry train. Before, because I've got to do this. Well, now would be the time. Thank you very much. I just want to make sure Kipper didn't throw it a break. Go, baby.

Molson Canadian wants to give you and a friend the ultimate hockey fan experience through their Molson Canadian Rivalry Train Contest. This includes a round-trip train from Toronto to Ottawa to see your Leafs take on the Sens April 1st with food and beverage included at the game as well as an overnight hotel accommodation. Hey, now. To enter, all you have to do is tune in to The Real Kipper and Bourne Show every day this week and listen for the code word

and then text it in to 59590. Today's code word is maple leafs text maple leafs to 595 90 right now for your chance to win we have another code word for tomorrow be sure to tune in and of course you have to be 19 at least to get into this contest so there we go fellas you know what that that sound is that's the text coming in right now how many did you have yesterday i'm just looking right now at the text coming in right now. How many did you have yesterday? I'm just looking right now at the text line quickly before we go to break. Yesterday there was

no less than a thousand. I'm looking right now. Are you serious? They are flying. So lots of people want to go see the Leafs in Ottawa. How could you not? Sounds like a sick trip. The trains, I loved. Yeah. Anyways. Text it in. Okay, we're going Sounds like a sick trip. The trains, I loved. Yeah. Anyways. Tux it in. Okay, we're going to take a quick break and Mike Kelly, hockey analyst

specializing in analytics. We're going to get to hard numbers and we're going to tell Mike what are the good numbers and which ones are the ones you're wasting our time with. Mike Kelly, after the break, you're watching and listening to Real Kipper and Born.

Discussing the biggest stories that matter to Toronto sports fans. The Fan Morning Show with Ailish Forfar and Justin Cuthbert. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Real Kipper and Born on Sportsnet 590 The Van. All about the numbers.

Welcome in Mike Kelly, hockey analyst specializing in analytics, NHL Network, SportLogic. Mike, thanks for doing this as always. Let's just start with the trade deadline. And, you know, you're a numbers guy. So you see with teams, trends, and where things head or remain consistent,

yet we see the Leafs with an altering maybe philosophy somewhat. What was your first thoughts on how five or six new faces could change numbers for the Leafs off the top of your head? It was that I think I liked all the moves. If you just look at them kind of move by move, they all pretty much make sense, right? You get McCabe in, and he's a little heavier, and Laffrey's got a bunch of great speed and can kill penalties.

O'Reilly, I think that kind of speaks for itself, the leadership, the face-offs, the things that he does well. And, you know, you go on and on, and Nolichari, Depp, it all makes sense. But then, to your point, you end up with six new players and teams have 18. So that's a big chunk. And, you know, the hockey players that I work with, analysts, people like yourself, Kipper, a few of them were like, that's a lot of upsetting the apple cart, maybe too much. So there's that point that you can look at.

But then you watch a couple of guys get hurt and you're kind of happy to have the depth. So it seemed to me that Toronto, I'm not saying they did this because of just Tampa Bay, but the playoffs in general, like we need to win battles on the walls. We need to not get pushed off pucks. We need to be able to four check effectively. It's going to be a slugfest

i think a tampa bay series and tampa went out and got tanners you know and and you know they're they're not shy about four checking and playing that game too so um that's what those moves kind of said to me mike you know we're talking about the leafs here every day and talking about their chances and playoffs the reality is none of it really matters unless austin matthews is able to to be austin matthews like you have to the whole thing is built on their superstars being superstars he's been a superstar but not as good as he can be have you seen anything in the numbers or even with your eye test just watching matthews this year in terms of his decline in offensive output, because it is down significantly. Yeah, and you know what?

I'm looking at this the other day, actually, and I'm thinking, you know, Matthews, you know, he's obviously not doing what he did last year, but he still scored a lot of goals this year. I mean, it's not like he's having a terrible season, but the simplest thing is last year, in just about every critical offensive category when it comes to goal scoring, he was either first or very close to it. And know we're talking not just just goals but um the

chances you're generating right expected goals and we all love that term but goal probability um how you how you're creating those chances so he's not one-dimensional he can do it off the rush he can cycle uh one timer it was all there and he's at the top of the league in all these areas and this season he's still very good and i's at the top of the league in all these areas. And this season, he's still very good. I mean, he's top 25 in just about all of them, but he's not first or second or third. So everything's kind of dipped a little bit.

Now, why is that? Is there anything that's nagging him, you know, playing away from Marner for stretches? We see how Mitch Marner is one of the best playmakers in the world. Maybe it's a combination of things, but still very, very good. But, yeah, it's just kind of dipped across the board from the best to, you know, one of the top 20 in all these areas. You know, it's funny you mention that because we saw one of the best outputs that we've seen in a long time out of Ryan O'Reilly, Tavares, and Marner in Buffalo.

And yet, Sheldon comes back, and it's almost as if it's what you said. Matthews needs Marner. I'm taking him off that line, and I'm putting him with Matthews. And Matthews, I think the next game, I think two goals or better looks. And coincidentally, I don't think Ryan O'Reilly had a point after that for a few games. And you need two Mitch Marners almost. And was that a bigger statement for Matthews needing Marner

that you have an output like that in Buffalo? Was that a bigger statement for Matthews needing Marner, that you have an output like that in Buffalo and can't keep that line together? Yeah, maybe. Mitch Marner elevates everybody around him, right? You don't need numbers to know that. He's got a ton of assists. Even beyond that, the playmaking, finding guys in the slot, nobody's connected on more of those passes this year

than Mitch Marner in the league. Austin Matthews' game is well-rounded enough, versatile enough that he's still going to be productive, just maybe not to that degree. And you can probably say that about just about any player if you're playing with Mitch Marner. I don't think it's a knock on Austin Matthews by any means, but everybody's going to benefit greater from playing with him

versus anybody else on the roster. So that, I guess, is the balancing act is can Austin do enough away from him where we can put Mitch with somebody else and elevate that person for the greater good of the team? Or do we need Austin at this level and that requires Mitch and the other guys are going to have to figure something out away from him. This is the thing that interests me about this team and the injuries throws us all for a loop

because now you've got guys that are out O'Reilly for four weeks. It sounds like Tavares should be back soon by the sounds of it. I had an opportunity once to listen to some of the best coaches ever talk about how they prepared for Game 7s in the playoffs. And it was fascinating. And one thing they all said was you don't want to go into critical games in the playoffs with something that you haven't done before. And whether that's a line combination or a system change,

you don't want to go in with an unknown. So I think there's going to be line juggling down the stretch um just in case you get into the playoffs and know what something's not working for a cult games we need to change it up well we've done it before and these guys are familiar i think that probably has to happen down the stretch for toronto yeah i have a little concern watching their offensive chances like they're just inner slot shot creation and all that stuff is down since i don't know going back to february 1st just looking at it today so have my concerns about them the the

devils don't seem to have that same concern for someone who doesn't watch the devils uh and is going to watch them tonight what's something they could look for in terms of maybe unique traits of the new jersey devils? They are fast. They play fast everywhere, right? And not just skating speed. I mean, they play fast. They move the puck fast. They're one of the top teams in the league at scoring off of turnovers.

So they'll create them, and then boom, pass, pass, goal. So I'd watch for New Jersey, whether it's forecheck, just play in the offensive zone, neutral zone in general, to try to force Toronto into some mistakes and counterattack really quick. They're really good at that. They're a top five team in the league generating offense off the rush. They've got three of the top 10 players in the league generating offense off the rush in terms of chances. That's Hisher, that's Jack Hughes, that's timo meyer so they are are so fast and hard to contain um jack hughes man when he gets the puck like he's not shy to cut into the middle of the ice and and use the the ice to his advantage he's not just to go going down the walls and playing on the

outside um dougie hamilton shot uh they're they're one of the most fun teams in the league to watch and as good as they are offensively they're every bit as good defensively as well so Dougie Hamilton's shot. They're one of the most fun teams in the league to watch. And as good as they are offensively, they're every bit as good defensively as well. So you nailed it, Borny. Toronto's had trouble in front of the net both ends of the ice recently, getting those shots, limiting them. New Jersey is as tough a test as you'll find in both those areas.

Mike, secondary scoring's been a bit of an issue on this road trip. Any concern there? Yes. I mean, as much as you could ever have about secondary scoring, sure. And then especially now with Tavares and O'Reilly not in, like, you know, Willie, it wasn't that long ago he was playing with those guys. He's got what looks like Lafferty and Yarncroft in this game. So I think Nylander is capable of just, you know just doing special things on his own if he has to, too.

But, yeah, you go down the lineup, and it's more kind of defensive checking than guys that pop off the page offensively. And this is a tough one, like I said, about New Jersey. I mean, it's a tough one for their top guys to score against this team, let alone you get into a depth matchup. The third line

for the Devils has been fantastic recently. Toronto, to try to win those battles will be tough. And I saw you mention this earlier, Borny,

as well, like the next five games for Toronto, all the speed they're going to be facing in those teams. I think you can even lump Ottawa

on the back end of that into it. Ottawa plays fast too, at least offensively. So these are going to be facing in those teams. I think you can even lump Ottawa on the back end of that into it. Ottawa plays fast too, at least offensively. So these are going to be challenging games for certainly the bottom guys, but even the top guys. So let's zoom out to the league a little bit at large and just get your thoughts on some surprising seasons from players. I don't know if there's anyone who stands out to you in terms of guy

maybe you didn't think was a superstar or just guys taking a step. Does anyone pop out to you that just kind of, you know, came out of nowhere for you? Oh, that's a good question. Just top of my head. Can we say Connor?

It's still ridiculous. Isn't it? This many points. It's nuts. Just keeping with the matchup tonight, even Jack Hughes. I didn't think Jack Hughes had this kind of scoring in him. Maybe ever. score this many points it's nuts um just keeping with with the matchup tonight even jack hughes i didn't think jack hughes had this kind of scoring in him maybe ever uh definitely not this early in his career like he can score 50 this year i didn't see that coming as well um and one of the things i

was looking at recently a little trivia for you guys if you want but i'm looking at dual threats because jack's become that now right that he can score at the rate that he's scoring at. We know he's a great playmaker. So guys in the league this year that have 30 goals, 30 assists, a hundred shots from the slot, a hundred passes from the slot or into the slot. There's five of those guys. Jack Hughes is one of them. Yeah. Feel free to name any others.

If you can think of them, Connor, dual threat, playmaker, goal scorer. Yeah. McDavid's another one. McKinnon? No, he hasn't played enough. Do we have Dreisaitl? No, he's not one. Kirill Capriza? Kirill's one. Very nice. Pasternak's another one.

Hold on. What do you got, Sammy? You got a contribution? You got a guess, Sammy? Oh, they have 30 goals already? I was going to say Marner, but no. What do you got, Sammy? You got a contribution? You got a guess, Sammy? Oh, they have 30 goals already? Does that... 30 goals, 30 assists. I was going to say Marner, but no. Not Marner, no.

Here's McDavid. Cage Thompson. Cage. Not Cage. No, he's a shooter. He's just rifling off the top of the circle. Not Bo. Not Bo.

I'm ready for the answer whenever you are, Kip. I'm ready for the answer. Uncle. Oh, yeah, yeah. Miko. Miko Rantman. Yeah, yeah. What a list.

Anyways, yeah, you just talk about dual threat, guys, and if you use that kind of criteria, I think it's fair. And those are five awesome, awesome players. So that's where Jax kind of got to. And I didn't think he had the goal scoring, but other players who have kind of jumped up out of nowhere, like, I mean, R&H, the season he's having in Edmonton, that's 78 points. He's 10th in the league in scoring.

And, you know, he's a really smart, intelligent player. But there's been some great stories this season. And I have on occasion on this show mentioned that it is rare that when the Leafs are going well and you have a one-two punch of Tavares and Matthews as your number one and number two center, they're both shooter mentality guys, which lends to your i don't know imbalance so more playmakers well just usually traditionally you've got one center who out of two that are better known for playmaking than they are scoring. And Leafs have always presented Matthews and Tavares as shooters first, right?

They like their goals. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Matthews is a decent playmaker. He's a goal scorer. And if he gets the puck in a good area, he's going to shoot it as he should. Tavares is a net front type guy. They're not playmakers per se.

Yeah, totally agree. You know, that's interesting. I wonder if you look at top six centers kind of across playoff teams even, just good teams, what the archetype breakdown is. The thing about both of Matthews and Tavares, so they can score different ways.

They're two of the best players, too, kind of off the puck, getting it back, using their body to win battles. They have a lot of similarities in just kind of how they play in the O-Zone as well, I would say. But you're right. No, not two guys that are going in as playmakers. Well, listen, I'll go, again, outside of the traditional look, your best two playmakers are wingers.

Marner and Nylander are better passers and set-up men than Tavares and Matthews. Find me another example over the course of history of that. It's rare. Hmm. I haven't thought about it. That's an interesting thing to think about though yeah no it's uh you know the leafs have a very different looking roster this year obviously a few more heavy guys than they have in the past too so it is a unique group do you have a at this

point a cup favorite last one for me is to get your sense heading in here is there a head is it i'm sure actually you know what? I'm gonna take the Bruins off the table outside of Boston. Is there someone else? Yeah. It's like the McDavid discussions, right? Other than Connor.

Yeah. Look, New Jersey's tires from the second game of the year. I think they could look at it. They're probably going to play the Rangers in the first round. I'd be inclined right now to pick them as favorites over the Rangers. I didn't have the Rangers on my – we did a top five most improved organizations on deadline day at the NHL Network.

I had the Devils on there. I didn't have the Rangers. I think New Jersey could be sneaky in that sense. And you guys might laugh at me about this one but the la kings finally got some goaltending and that team has been so good defensively and so good kind of everywhere else and the pacific is not a juggernaut division i don't know about winning a cup let's not go that far um getting to a conference final wouldn't shock me so are kind of maybe more sleeper-ish picks. They're all sleepers

in the West. Yeah, they might all be sleepers in the East other than Boston too, but what's cool in the East, right, is that those six teams, no one's going to be surprised if any one of them wins the Stanley Cup, right? Right. Mike, really, you good?

Yep. You good? Alright all right we're gonna let you go but uh always appreciate your uh your time and uh certainly gave us some food for thought uh on your 30 for what was it again what was that stat 30 goals 30 goals 30 assists 100 slot passes 100 slot shots see i like that a lot. Love it. Okay, Mike, thanks for doing this, man. Mike Kelly. All right, cheers, guys. NHL Network, SportLogic.

See, useful. Useful. So who was it? It was Pasternak, Rantanen, Kirill, Kaprizov, Jack Hughes, and McDavid. Which you know how I feel about the Leafs having that different look. I've brought it up before.

Tonight would have been... Are you paying attention, Sammy? I am paying attention. Tonight would have been a good example for me with no Ryan O'Reilly, no Tavares to put either Marner or Nylander in the middle behind Matthews. They have historically played center.

Yeah. They know the position well. Not in the NHL. Oh, I see. Marner played it in junior? Yeah. Oh. And they did it with they used to do it with Nylander here and there

well Nylander's done it this year and played it in the American League for two years or a year and a half for me I don't like Lafferty there Lafferty to me has to be one of those guys that's situational I bump them up to a

top six get things going grease it up a little bit piss somebody off open up some lanes don't worry about playing 200 feet and being the captain reliable like going against a very good team right now putting lafferty in a second slot center position right now. I think probably puts a little pressure on him to perform tonight. I'm not sure I want to do that. Feels like you're asking a lot of the guy. I like Achari

a lot and I trust him. His defensive positioning to me is superb. I'm very impressed. If you want to play him center and he's playing in his own zone and I don't expect him to be as fast and get it on the four check as much as Lafferty, maybe a swap. Lafferty's playing the responsible guy in his own zone

and he's going to look up and he's going to see 88 breaking out, looking for that seam pass or that lob pass that puts him on a breakaway. I'm not sure I want to do that to Lafferty. You think Mitch Marner would want to play center? Yeah. Why wouldn't he? Because it's hard. Why wouldn't Nylander want to play center?

I'd rather have him. I'd rather give him the responsibility of being in his own zone down low instead of that, you know, on occasion blowing the zone look? There is no world in which William Nylander wants to play center over wing. No. I'm sure that like we're going to give you, you've always wanted your center again.

Buddy, playing center, playing wing, it's two different sports. Oh, thanks, Tips. It's two different sports oh thanks tips it's two different sports and you're gonna ask the guy who flies the zone the most on the team to play center like no chance yeah come on marner i this has been something that you've talked about since week one of real kipper on board that marner and it's something that's always piqued my interest. I just think he might, like... He's the team's best playmaker. I think it's a very interesting view, and I don't necessarily know if I agree or disagree with you, Kipper, that your center has to be the playmaker,

but naturally, that's where the puck starts, and you want to distribute it out wide, right? So, like, in theory, the center should be a playmaker, but I don't know if it needs to be. he win a draw at the nhl level when's the last time he took a draw i don't know i you know yeah he's going in there against nhl guys it's his first you get better when you practice it for sure but he hasn't been like you can't just stick them in there getting cleaned out in the draw like i don't know i guess my two thoughts are i don't we don't agree on the idea that the center's got to be a distributor

you look at the top 10 and assist in the league and it's guys like kucherov and marner and uh panarin and nugent hopkins like it's there's a lot of wingers in there but my other thought is just that you know mitch is so good at being in the right place, evading traffic. Like, I don't ever remember him getting hit. Mitch Marner, like, the same way that Patrick Kane never gets hit. I don't remember him getting hit once, and it was Columbus, and he got hurt. Shoulder injury. Shoulder.

That's the only time I ever remember it. As, you know, I just can't draw up instances of watching him in the d zone like in a pile you know pushing the guy in a pile playing center down low in that aspect of the position you know whereas willie i don't want him doing it either but at least he's a big body you know it's a different d zone thought is all i yeah i'm i'd love to see it one time i i am very curious to see Sheldon's second line here of Lafferty, Yarncroft, and Nylander. And if things don't get off to a great start,

how long will it take them to get the bingo-bango balls out? We'll see Kerfoot playing. There's just no, yeah, I was going to say, like you look at this group, and I don't think they seriously consider Marner an option even if it is the right call i don't think they think it is and so just looking at the lineup like who's how do you you don't have anyone the second line it's like you know that goes there you know that meme with like where the guy slaps something on the water it's just fixed it yeah it's kerfoot yeah it's just kerfoot's that

for keith you just puts him wherever. It's like, well, we need a second line center. Kerfoot. Yeah. Top line winger. Kerfoot. Like, you could put Bunting up with Willie. Like, Bunting could get up there as a winger.

And then, I don't know, a Charlie. I'm looking at the left side tonight. Kerfoot, Yarncroft, Aston Reese, and Bunting. And I'm thinking, did the league expand? That's a left side on an expansion team. Is Atlanta in the league again? Oh my god, they're gonna be.

Are you okay? I'm fine. I think that's a little harsh. We'll go to Lotz on that. We will go to Brian Lott. We haven't had Lotz on in a while former nhl player agent general manager nhl network analyst he's done it all we'll get his thoughts on the leafs left side their centerman and their chances against new jersey tonight with no ryan o'reilly or john tavars you are watching and listening on our YouTube channel on the Fan 590

Real Kipper and Born. Big opinions and in-depth conversations covering the Leafs, Jays, Raptors and the NFL. The J.D. Bunkins Podcast. Subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is Real Kipper and Born on Sportsnet 590 The Van. Just waiting on Brian Lawton to join us momentarily. Did you hear the last commercial in our break was Tim Hortons? Yeah. Yeah. Roll up the rim, they said. But they changed it this year. Did they? To roll up the mobile rim.

Okay, so a couple things. We love Tim Hortons. I'm not happy right now. Excellent sponsor. We support everything they've done. Yes. And also, that's been doing that like five years now, Kip. Serious? Yeah, it's been at least, maybe like five years that now, Kip. Serious?

Yeah, it's been at least, maybe not five, but at least four. At least four. This isn't the first year that it's on mobile? No, it's not. Just get the app.

I've been rolling it up thinking I've lost for the last three years. There's nothing under here again. I've done, I did it, I did it two days ago and he's like,

what are you doing? I'm like, I didn't win. It's blank. He goes, no, no, it's on your mobile. I'm like, what? Anyways doing? I'm like, I didn't win. It's blank. He goes, no, no, it's on your mobile. I'm like, what?

Anyways, Lott is there. That's very funny. We have Lott. Such a loser. Okay, Lott, you don't have this problem in the States, do you? Roll up the rim. We do not. It sounds like a cheery day in Toronto with you fellas.

That's great to hear. How are you, pal? Doing great. Thanks. Doing great. A ton we want to get into, but I have not actually spoken to you since the trade deadline. And, you know, prior to that, I think I wrote in my article that they needed to loosen up a few things so we can get some more action in the NHL trade deadline. And lo and behold, it was one for the ages that we've seen. One of the rare ones since the salary cap where we saw more hockey trades than we did rentals. And I'm just wondering, Lotz, from your point of view,

is that a trend that's coming and moving forward or was that just a one-off in 2023 hard to tell right now um but it wasn't that hard to tell kipper we've done some interviews and talked about it was always going to be a buyer's market this year and there were a number of different reasons why. I didn't see a lot of people talking about them, but certainly the slowing salary cap, that whole crunch caused a little bit of influence. The Conor Bedard effect, that caused some teams to rethink their position. And just the reality that there were some really good programs,

organizations that have done well for a long time. They're kind of betwixt right now. And you knew they were thinking about going all in on selling. And even though we use the word retool, it's really closer to rebuild. You add all that together, add Detroit and Nashville in at the kind of the 11th hour, and all of a sudden it was a heck of a market for a lot of buyers. With that said, I was really impressed with the job some teams did selling. They were able to feel the momentum of the trade deadline

because it's not all favored one way or another. It's like a hockey game. And, you know, even you can pick out deals and say, wow, that was really fortuitous. Something maybe like Marcus Johansson goes for a third rounder by Washington. That was good timing because there was a lot of supply out there for guys kind of like him. Oscar Sundquist, you know, goes the next day and goes for a lot less,

a guy that's probably more capable right now. So when you really go through it, John Klingberg, you know, pretty good player, John Klingberg, just wrong timing, and you get stuck with him, and you get a fourth rounder in return for eating half the seven half the salary on a seven million dollar number it was a super interesting trade deadline you know in my opinion kipper i think you're dead on i just don't know if it's going to continue next year i think it's going to be like this year we gotta try to read the tea leaves ahead of time and make some bets one team who's had success there i would say the most success there in past years

made another big move that's tampa bay they had tanner juneau for 368 picks but whatever they got tanner juneau um what what is going on with that team though you know they they know they they're locked into the toronto maple leafs in round one but I looked at you know records since February 1st today they're 25th in the NHL since then obviously on quite a skid right now what do you is this just they know what who they're facing in playoffs and can turn it on or is it something bigger with them I don't think anybody knows right now to be honest with you they obviously have played a lot of hockey they do have some. It was announced that Hedman won't be in the lineup, obviously, this evening. So, you know, some guys have been dragging. They've got a tried and true team that's proven battle-tested.

But they certainly look like they're off right now, and they've lost their edge. Will they get it back, as you just said? Yes, I think they are probably the strongest organization in recognizing that it's all about the playoffs. They've had a good year, but not a great year. They're really struggling now. But I feel like they'll get it back, and they'll be rolling come playoff time.

But maybe not. Maybe the Toronto Maple Leafs will catch a huge break. I know that would be welcomed there in Toronto if they're not on top of their game going into the playoffs. Usually one coach, if he wants to make a statement, he benches one star, not three. What were your thoughts on that? My thoughts on that, and this is generally the way it is around the National Hockey League,

is by the time the public or the media figures things out, the coach is way ahead of that. And I took that as a sign that things aren't quite right there in Tampa. I didn't take it as a one-off, even though that's how it was presented to the public. I took it as John Cooper recognizes, you know, we've got some issues here about how we're approaching the nightly job that we all have. And that's different for Tampa because they've been a model of professionalism for the last number of years, more so than anybody else in this league. But I took that as him definitely recognizing that he didn't like where things are at.

And it's not necessarily a one-off. Yeah, they certainly don't lack guys with heart. So you'd expect them to show up and turn things around in fairly short order. I mean, all the teams at the top of the East right now, you expect great things from, right? I mean, you had six teams there who are, you know, maybe the six best teams in the league. Who do you think made the biggest strides at the deadline? Is the addition of Timo Meier the biggest one?

I know the Rangers added a couple. Who took the biggest strides in terms of getting better at the deadline? Well, I do think so far, I mean, one of the more stable teams, which is, you know, not something fans are accustomed to hearing, has been New Jersey. And adding Timo Mayer, I thought, was a huge move. I keep waiting for that team to come back to earth, and I have seen no signs of that. They had a little bit of a momentum letdown, I guess I could say, a while ago. But for the most part,

they look rock solid. The Rangers, on the other hand, I don't think they've got everything quite worked out yet with the moves they've made. They haven't quite figured out how to integrate Kane and Tarasenko to the best or the best possible lineup they can put out there. So that's a work in progress, but they've still got time. Boston absolutely blew me away with the Orloff trade. Everybody's seen what he's been able to do. He looks like a different hockey player. I guess I thought all along in typical Boston fashion that not only were they picking up maybe a little bit of an undervalued player, but also a guy that they would be able to re-sign right away. We haven't seen that, but stay tuned because if that happened, that would be a grand slam for

them. I think it's problematic with the term Allerflats and his age, but we'll see how that plays out. But I thought Boston was incredible, not only in adding him, but reacting so quickly to some injuries, getting Bertuzzi. I thought they did a really, really nice job. You know, Lotz, what took the trade deadline to another level is just exactly what you said, but it wasn't Boston. It was Brian McClellan's decision in Washington to unload. To me, trade deadline went to another level

on a name that we never heard all year long, and that's Orlov. And, I mean, we knew Orlov was a solid guy, but I don't know. He just presents, like, such, I don't know, more impactful, or have we seen more out of Boston than we ever felt in Washington for him on how impactful he is? Chikrin's another one. I don't think anyone ever doubts his talent or his ability to play 22, 24 minutes a night.

It's just a matter of staying healthy. And then there's Kyle Dubas, who went a little bit more conservative with jake mccabe but you know the the the need for a a bona fide a guy that can look the part of a number one or number two defenseman is is huge come trade deadline time yeah it really is and it's funny there's narratives out there about guys. In Orloff's case, the kind of NHL narrative was, look, he's a really good player, but maybe he was going to be able to contribute more offensively. He was making strides at one point. Then it kind of died off in Washington.

He goes to Boston and, you know, he looks like he's a number one D. I had him rated as a number three D on a good team because of his past history, winning a cup, being able to stand up to that test. But there's a lot of other guys, even guys like Proveroff, that I did have rated ahead of him. And I'm not so sure that's the case. I'm not so sure we maybe do as great a job as we should grading, you know, where one organization is at cyclically in terms of being good versus another.

Philly's trying to refine themselves. Maybe that's hurting Provorov. Boston, on the other hand, is clearly on top of their game. They get Orloff in. He puts up nine points in, like, six games. And everybody's like, where did that come from? Boston, on the other hand, is clearly on top of their game. They get Orloff in. He puts up nine points in like six games, and everybody's like, where did that come from? That's just part of the variance that, you know, these guys are tasked with trying to make moves off of.

But in Donnie Sweeney's case, last year with Lindholm, this year with Orloff, being able to pivot so quickly, he's looked brilliant. You know, there was a lot of brilliant people, I thought, this year at the deadline, and that's great to see. Orlov being able to pivot so quickly. He's looked brilliant. You know, there was a lot of brilliant people, I thought, this year at the deadline, and that's great to see. I thought Billy Garrett did a brilliant job in Minnesota, just adding, you know, undervalued guys from Klingberg to Johansson to Sundquist, you know.

That feeds into the way they play, and that may pay huge dividends for them down the stretch here i mean don't look now but they're knocking on the door of taking over dallas for first in the pacific and we haven't talked about them that much this year so lots of things to love about this deadline there really were yeah and and one of them was a i don't know biggest deal at the deadline that people are like yeah okay and it, and it's Kane to the Rangers, right? Like he picked his team, the return wasn't insane. I don't know.

It just feels like an under-discussed thing. Do you think that Kane makes them better? I mean significantly better? What are your thoughts on the addition of Kane? I think in some ways that the Rangers may have taken a step back and that'll disappoint and surprise a lot of people but the reason I say that is the evolution of the Rangers was coming out of that phase when you're acquiring talent and you start to look like an all-star team you don't really look and Kipper can appreciate this having been one of those guys

that really helped to turn a good group of players into a good team, someone that's willing to sacrifice, maybe play a different role than someone else, maybe play a lesser role. All of a sudden, I feel like the Rangers took a little step back to that, which is what I thought helped propel them out of that stage was getting some more guys to fit into roles, having people be willing to sacrifice. And that was the big change I thought Chris Drury made taking over after Jeff Gordon. But this has been perplexing. There's still lots of time for the Rangers to figure it out,

but it certainly hasn't meshed right off the bat by any stretch of the imagination for them with either one of those two guys who are both really good players, but sometimes in the National Hockey League, as Vegas and even Seattle has proven this year, the team with the most star players doesn't always beat the team

that maybe just has a bunch of really good players but doesn't have as many weaknesses so i'm watching that whole trend very very closely i'm gonna ask this next question and lean on your uh expertise as a nhl executive Was Chris Drury bullied into trading for Pat Kane? Was it? For me, it makes no sense whatsoever to go get Tarasenko first and Pat Kane second, unless you thought all along that you weren't going to get Pat Kane. And then you commit to Tarasenko, and then all of a sudden Pat Kane says, I only want to go to play in New York, and you're like, well, am I going to be the idiot to go against the New York fans

on one of the most electrifying players in the last decade? Yeah, I think that's one that definitely was tough on the Rangers. You know, the attitude from the Blackhawks was very clearly Patrick can pick his place, which is fine. The players earned that by not necessarily what he's done, just the club gave him a no-move clause.

When that happens, then somebody has to agree to it. The Blackhawks agreed to that. The way it was handled this year in the market is it should have been handled quicker. And at some point you have to go to a guy and say, look, if he wants to make a move, we need to know ahead of time. I feel like that one dragged on past the point of no return. You guys have heard me say in the past, I just think you got to go to players and say,

look, if you want to be traded, we're interested in trading you. Don't really like the concept of just trading you to one team because you're pretty much embarrassing us. And personally, I probably would just rather if you stayed. But if you want to go, give me at least a couple of teams and let me know early enough so I can make a deal. I didn't feel like that really happened there. And I think that hurt the process for Chicago. And in the end, I think it hurt Chris Drury because he clearly was not sure, went out and got Tarasenko,

and then realized, oh my gosh, Patrick Kane wants to come here. It's not going to cost much. I just have to do some cap gymnastics to get him on board, which they were able to do, but there were some hiccups along the way. There's not a chance if Chris Drury gets Pat Kane first, there's not a chance that he goes after Tarasenko.

That's my point, Kipper, is that unfortunately, things that were out of his control just took longer than would have been beneficial for the Rangers and I think would have been beneficial for the Blackhawks also. Lots. You're the perfect guy to ask this question to

because I'm going to ask you about the Vancouver Canucks because there's a lot of moving parts at play there. There's what the players want. There's what agents are trying to do for their players. There's what GMs and presidents and all that stuff are trying to make happen what are your thoughts on essentially i think one of the biggest tire fire seasons unfortunately that i can remember in terms of just decision making managing you know blow ups it's been fairly bad what are your thoughts on their deadline what happened in the position they're currently in?

Well, obviously, they really kind of started things off with Bo Horvat. I think that shook everybody awake because, you know, as Nick Kipros is writing stories about nothing's going to happen, they stepped up out in front, Kipper, and made a big move. And I'm being facetious, but that kind of woke everybody up. Should we be surprised by that particular big move? Do you think GMs are going, oh, my gosh, I can't believe that? I don't think so because the DNA of Jimmy Rutherford is kind of his thing. He likes to get his business done early.

Everybody knows that. Lou Lamarillo, another guy that doesn't say much, but Lou does an incredible job. And Lou identifies who he wants, and he goes out and gets them. So I wasn't necessarily shocked, but I do felt like that woke up the market a little bit. In terms of Vancouver from there, I understand what you're saying. It's just tough to read what direction they're going in. You'd have to ask them, do I think that was the right direction for them to go in, where they're kind of buying, kind of selling? No, I don't.

I don't believe that. I think they could have been a little harder. There's things that go on, fellas, that the fans never hear about. You don't know what the ownership's position is. You don't know what other influences Jimmy Rutherford and Patrick Alvin are working with. And I'll cut those guys some slack on that. But on the surface, did it look like that made sense, what went on there? It did not to me, no.

When you were running the tampa bay lightning and all of a sudden you realize in the best interest of the team we should trade vinnie le cavalier when you're going through a process uh much like jimmy rutherford went through with bo horvat and others with star players is there a constant for executives in that position to constantly worry about the effect this will have or what the players are thinking? And I wonder now, even in Orlov's case in Washington, while Brian McClellan's working on a trade with Boston,

is he, is he wondering how Ovi is feeling on this, or would that conversation have happened a long time ago before making the decision to trade Orlov? I have not asked Mac this. My suspicion is he would have been in pretty close contact. He's very conscientious about where his players are at. We were conscientious in Tampa about where our players were at. I think most of the general managers in this league are. You just want to have a pulse of what's going on. You want to have a pulse of what's going on in your room.

You want to have a pulse on how players are feeling, what their outlook is. Does it always matter, or is it the most important thing when it's all said and done? No, GMs have to make really tough decisions that are best for the organization. For us in Tampa, I felt it was best because of Vinny's contract more than anything, because we were rebuilding, not retooling, and it didn't fit. And I felt like it would have fit for at least one other club, which was the case. What I mismanaged was that I was reporting to one owner,

and essentially in that particular case got rejected and found out that I needed approval from two owners to do things. So that was on me. It didn't work out. I felt like that was best for the team. And, you know, that's the end of it. You just move on. So that was, that was Cary Price to Tampa Bay.

And what was the trade again? Oh, there was a bunch of very good players that potentially would have been involved. It's already a sore subject for me. Okay, well, I won't take you down that path. But I am curious about the idea of dealing with ownership. When we have Doug McLean on, he talks about dealing with his owners,

and that's the story out of Vancouver. Everyone mentions that the ownership there has had some say in it you know is that maybe an under underlooked angle from the media or for fans and really how decisions get made with their roster yes it absolutely is look my job was super easy up until that point but i had one person that I was working very closely with in the ownership group, and I had the easiest job in the world. I talked to them every single day about what we're doing and why. I would outline what the risks are and the rewards. And there was never any really new information that was coming up other than this constant flow of what's going

on. And that worked beautifully. That isn't always the case. Not everybody manages that way. I'm very communicative. That's the way I am. I also felt it was in the best interest of the organization to operate that way. If you're doing that with your owner, then your strategy is easy to execute on. If you're not and they're finding out late, then that's problematic. And I don't know what the case is in Vancouver. I do know Francesco Aquiline. I think he's a terrific guy. I think he's a very easy guy to communicate with.

But I can't speak to any more than that. I don't know what's going on there i really don't i just know that uh you know he's a pretty good guy to work for uh communication is paramount to him all right one quick one because we've already uh gone over our time limit with you and we really appreciate it but in the east East, Buffalo, Ottawa, Florida, Pitt, Islanders, who makes it, who doesn't? Well, notwithstanding last night, I'm feeling very good about Ottawa. I think their team's really coming together.

I think their patience paid off, you know, in the chikrin trade. I feel like that one, you know, really fell into their lap at the 11th hour and they jumped on it and they did an excellent job. And if you do the due diligence on that, there weren't a lot of options left at that time. So it worked out really good for Ottawa. It still worked out good for Arizona, but I think everybody was universally a little bit underwhelmed with the return. So that's been a big key move for them. I like Ottawa. I still like Pittsburgh.

I still like Pittsburgh. I believe that those two teams are the two that will be left standing when it's all said and done. It's no disrespect to the Islanders. I think they've played very well. Detroit and Washington, because of the reasons that you guys were just laying, are the players aware of what's going on? Yes, they are. Does it mean that that prohibits them

from rising up and making the playoffs? No, it doesn't. But it's a pretty tough headwind to overcome. Lots, great catching up with you really appreciate your time okay anytime guys thanks lots appreciate it brian lotten former nhl player agent general manager blah blah blah he's done it all yeah yeah check those boxes you okay that you didn't have your islanders in yeah you know i'm having a tough time, you know, finding a spot for them in there. They don't score enough goals.

They're injured. You know, I think they have enough guys. If they get in, they'd be a tough out. The toughest out of all those teams in that pile. But got to get in. That's going to be a challenge for them for sure. Speaking of the Washington Capitals. Yes. We remember Rasmus sandin remember that guy apparently not rasmus sandin rasmus yes i remember him blonde uh sometimes looks really good

and then sometimes could like you could need to draw arrows on the ice so he can follow them. That's such a great job. It is. Five points for Rasmus. He played over 25 minutes last night. That's really good context for Gustafson playing 22 minutes a night there. Sandin goes there and becomes a 25-minute-a-night guy. So I'd be lying if I said I didn't put this in the lineup for a reason to talk about it because I've been getting more blowback amongst Leafs Nation to this,

more on one side of Leafs Nation, I would say, in terms of people being upset about the Sandin trade, which I thought was an excellent trade to get a first-round pick and get a guy that's going to contribute. I thought that was a really good trade by Duke. It was a good trade for both sides, actually. But people are pushing back pretty hard. I'm getting some messages from a couple of my buddies bubbling up about...

Saying that... It's a bad trade. Ask them if they will watch those Washington games. Sandin is way better than you're giving them credit for. Yeah, a lot of that. And a lot of people are upset that they traded him. I would say of all the moves that they made, people are bristled at that. Here's the situation on that trade for them.

And I want to be on to put my perspective. I love the trade, and I will never miss him for one second. Bye, Felicia. But that's not a universally thought that a lot of people are kind of it's it's bubbling up a bit i think it hurt people that they didn't turn that first into another player but here's the thing with sandin is that he's going to be a better player than gustafson is today like i think he a more useful everyday guy in the nhl gustafson is a better power play guy than Sandin is today

and maybe ever will be. Gustafson is a legitimate power play quarterback. It's about the only skill he has at the NHL level, but given the Leafs failings, you can live with having a guy who doesn't play, but if he gets in, he could fix the power play or at least run a power play with some success. A first overall pick for sandin

to me was a first round first round first round the first i would say a week prior to that kipper and i had a conversation about him and said he was worth like what dermot would be worth like a third yeah or something like that so it's it helps them with a great pick you get a guy who can do something unique for your team that sandin didn't and there was no room in the lineup for the guy. And can I point out that they won 8-3 against the Sharks in his debut with, I think, Kapil Kakanen. He's a goalie, right? Their goalie had an 8-8 percentage.

And he was on the ice for two of the three goals against an 8-3 win. And then last night, he had two points, and he was on the ice of two of the four goals and i lost so yeah nobody's gonna judge no no one's gonna make a judgment that this guy's gonna turn himself into a norris trovee candidate because people are so excited to make the jump this is why the post-trade deadline week is a nuclear time for takes it is it is a nuclear take week yeah where everyone just feels immediately the norris trophy immediately validated or immediately like pissed off or they just want to be like i love that guy and he's had two seemingly good games that i have

not watched one second of therefore i am smart you are dumb and well assessed and i said that one of them trade for or Love before they did it. So I'm not playing the results on that one. He's still got a window and he's still young enough at 23, I guess, where there is some potential for some growth. I'm not sure how much smarter he's going to get or how more, where is the ceiling on him still? Washington traded him like there's a very high ceiling. I don't care if it's San Jose or Boston.

You play 25 minutes a night in the NHL. It's a big deal. For sure. It's a big deal. You've got to have a coach wanting to put you in that position and there you go and eric gustafson then he's playing 22 minutes a night well and we're calling it a big deal than it is i'm sure and we talked about this pre-show but they're having a tough year now in in washington they're not very good washington dude they're awful since february 1st they're bottom three and like so i think i

think if you are the general manager of the washington capitals you're probably walking down to the coach be like hey let's see what that new toy does yeah that's a good point let's let's put them in let's put them in some minutes here just to touch base on on what you're saying about a power play the only way we're gonna really know if if your words come true is that you're gonna have to give him starting power play minutes and i'm not he he will not he will not like put a dent in anything playing the last 30 seconds off of Morgan Riley's buck 30, buck 40. If, in fact, he's as good as you say he is on the power play, then at some point Sheldon's going to have to come off a commercial break or any scenario where he is the first d over the boards

is that going to happen soon it's tough right like we've been we've talked about morgan riley all year and kind of an underwhelming season they don't seem quick to want to give them any sort of step back they wrote him on the third pair today instead of writing lilligran up with him which is the most oh come on you know thing ever but yeah no i think it's a situation kip where it's like it's game four they're over 12 on the power play and now you're out of desperation going to a guy yeah and that's that's not building something here it's not building something long term but i think about like backup goalies that have got their starters through injuries in the playoffs where you say, get us through this round so we can get back to our guy and get right.

There are plenty of instances of that, whether it's Grubauer for Holtby or Fleury for Murray, whoever. Scott Darling. Yeah, get us through a round, and if Gustafson can give them something better than morgan i don't think it's going to happen either necessarily but at least you have something to go to whereas sandin had a pretty sizable run during the regular season running power play one two years ago and it didn't look any better it looked a few years ago against

montreal if i'm not mistaken, they sat Morgan's ass down. They shut Morgan down. That was against Columbus. And they turned Sandin into a power play star for them. They didn't turn him into a star. They put him on the power play. They treated him like a star. It stunk.

But that was the desperation where we just need someone. Maybe this guy can do it. So, I mean, just if you want to judge trade, it's like, oh, chicken dash two and they lost to Chicago. What a horrible trade. Like, this is such a time for people to. Anyways. It really is.

And the worst take out there might be that Dubas didn't protect this group with, you know, they lost their two of their best five forwards. Every team looks significantly worse the next roster you roll out minus two of your top five forwards. When game one starts, health, of course, the four lines are going to look good. It's going to look like a good hockey team. And the playoffs start, it all wipes away,

including Tampa's poopy stretch right now, which is not going to matter in april it's not going to matter they're going to be you think tampa's not gonna be ready to go i do think tampa will be ready to go that's what i mean but it's just fool's goal right now if you want to just think about writing i can already hear us do you remember in in march when tampa was whatever and and then you know condescending cooper condescended the leafs out of the first round again after he condescended his own players record show when that happens that we never for a second said tampa stinks i haven't bought this for a second yeah but you know you are looking for cracks in the armor i certainly i am really excited though for the least first round

matchup because it's awesome for our show because we get to play just as much cooper as we do yeah yeah i like reading between the lines blows up the leafs in half foe like he's like oh is there a better team than this favorite thing yeah oh it's just what a fat what a dynamic group that was like marshall and talk about marner marner's my favorite player. He's my favorite player. I tell him all the time. And everyone's like, see? It's like going to the beach and laying a trail of popcorn for the Seagulls. It kind of is.

You think Leaf fans are feeling a little better that Ottawa shows that they can go into a really bad team last night and lose 5-0. That's ugly. You know what, though? That one hurts. That's a reminder to Sens fans or to fans who haven't been rooting for a good team that it's hard to keep doing it every night. And even against bad teams, good teams, bad teams,

you got to do it every night. Boston season so incredible because they beat everyone you know they're a rare rare team but you know this Leafs team they're the fourth best team in the NHL by points for centers they've lost to the bottom teams a dozen the thing that amazes me the most is that their goaltending does not take a night off like come on just stink one night saving itaving it for postseason, Kip. When the Islanders roll over and look like you can't

stop a beach ball. Just be a sieve one time. Be a sieve. Allmark didn't just suddenly turn into Vasilevsky. He did. You guys are buying it? No, I'm not buying it, but he has turned himself into Vasilevsky this season.

He has 100%. He's better than Vasilevsky. I can say that he hasn't. He's been way better than Vasilevsky. I don't know what tomorrow brings. I can say that I don't think he is suddenly the league's best goalie. You know, like I think there's... How can you say he's not the league's best goalie?

Who is? I think Vasilevsky is. Not this season. Okay. You know, great. I think you're intentionally misunderstanding me. Playoffs start tomorrow. You have a choice.

Vasilevsky, Ulmark. You're going with Ulmark? You're going to have Ryan Nugent Hopkins or Austin Matthews. Nugent has more points than matthews is it right now coming off his last two weeks i'll take all mark no you're nuts do you want ryan nugent hopkins or austin matthews no listen i'm not writing off vasilevsky i I'm just saying that he's got some time to straighten his game out. They do need time to straighten things out.

There's no light switch that you're going to get Vasilevsky in his game seven mode coming off some bad losses. There's just no guarantees. But I'm just saying that for at least this season up until now, and I don't know what tomorrow brings, but Omerk has been the most impressive goalie in the National Hockey League. That isn't a true question. No doubt.

But I'm still, if I have to win a cup and I'm choosing a goalie, I am absolutely taking Vasilevskiy. Good news. You get to beat both. And there's no signs. Like, there's always some signs. Yeah, where you're like, boy, I don't know. I don't trust how he looked on that.

Just, it's so scary how good he is. And then Swayman. Ah, Anchorage, Alaska zone. You don't like Swayman? I mean, whatever. No, I like Swayman. He's fine. I think he's good. He's fine. I think he's good.

He's fine. He's fine. You'd love him here right now, and he would be so far the number one goalie here in Toronto. Ah, whatever. I'm talking to Superfan. They only have four shutouts, though. That's a little surprising.

Is that right? Yeah. Ilya Sorokin only gets shutouts for the Islanders. All right. Like I said off the top of the show, I don't think the Leafs have to win tonight, but I want them to be in the game the whole night. Just stay in the game.

Samsonov, keep them in the game. Stay in the game. Surprisingly good showing from the Leafs tonight. Sammy, what do you think? Blowout? 5-1 Devils, yeah. Not bad, eh? Yeah, I'm going to get spanked tonight. Love it. You? Oh, I got the Leafs tonight. 3 it comes. Sammy, what do you think? Blowout? 5-1 Devils, yeah. Not bad, eh? Yeah, I'm going to get spanked tonight. Love it.

You? Oh, I got the Leafs tonight. 3-2. Oh, you do? Yeah. I'll take Jersey in overtime. Alright, thanks Brian Lawton, Mike Kelly, and Tom Fitzgerald.