Real Kyper & Bourne - Outlining Leafs' Next Steps with John Chayka & Mats Sundin

Episode Date: May 4, 2026

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee share their thoughts on the Montreal Canadiens' Game 7 win over the Tampa Bay Lightning, head coach Jon Cooper's post-game comments, and Martin St. Louis rallying his team after their win. Then, New Toronto Maple Leafs' General Manager John Chayka and Senior Executive Advisor of Hockey Operations Mats Sundin (11:00) joins Nick and Justin in-studio to discuss working in the city, their relationship with each other since the Memorial Cup days, the hiring process and agreeing to work together, the next steps for the organization and roster, the timeline to constructing a Stanley Cup winning team, Sundin's role during a season, culture in the locker room, Auston Matthews' future, if a clean slate is on the horizon, how Chayka could use analytics in his job, and Mats returning to the Leafs' organization.  The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

Welcome to the national hour of the Real Kipper and Bourne show. Nick Kippreos, Justin Boren, Sammy McKee. We are live on Sportsnet, Sportsnet 650 in Vancouver, 960 in Calgary and streaming always on Sportsnet. Plus, if you can't catch us live, there's always Spotify, Apple Podcasts and YouTube, where we appreciate a thumbs up. In about 15 minutes, we're going to welcome the 19th general manager in Toronto Maple Leaf history, John Chica. Mm-hmm. Matt Sundeen. the official senior executive advisor to your Toronto Maple Leaf Sammy.

He still got his jersey? I had two or three, yeah. Two or three. Had him in here on his book tour about a year ago. Wow. My, how things have changed. A little different to. This hour of Real Kippron Bourne brought to by Bet365.

Any other messages? No, we're good for now. Text? You want to do text? No. I put that in the lineup, though. Yeah, you did. I don't do that.

It's the way I asked. Do you see the big bubble of with a question mark above my head when I'm like, am I supposed to mention text? You're Ron Burgundy. If I put it in there, you read it. I love that. This is so true. I don't want to test that one day.

I don't want to test that. So we're just kind of on notice here. I'm texting with my, our boss, Ryan Fabro, who's going to bring in the president and the general manager and son Dean. and then we're going to hit a break. So we're just kind of on, we're on their time right here, but I guess we should sneak in some habs talk.

Well, listen, I mean. Leaves some more important, but we can talk some habs. Matt and John don't want to hear about Montreal doing so well. Neither do I. Neither do you. But I don't care either. I don't care. They're the only Canadian team left.

Oh, you want to, like, be the, you want to talk a lot of habs. You want to be like the HAB show. I do want to talk about the HABs. I know people are upset out there. Chris Hadfield, our astronaut tweeted positively about them and that bothered people. What? I know that bothers me. I know, yeah.

It's like if you've been a Leafs guy and you say anything positive about the HABS, people get upset. But hey, this HAB's team boys, they are something else. Now, they weren't something else last night. They got filled in. Did you give them a chance

to go down there and win? Oh, absolutely. They won there twice already in the series. I thought for sure they'd have a chance. I didn't think that they would get their butts handed to them the way they did. But Dobish was awesome. They got a couple of bounces, like bounces.

So good. Very good. And I'm surprised how good he is. Like there's moments I watched him this year where he was scattery. The only, the only, I gave Tampa a chance if Vasilevsky could still do what he did in game six. And he was, he was really good. And look at the, look at the game winning goal, right? Yeah.

Smacked in, backhanded from behind the goal line off. That's a hockey god's goal. And even the first one was off several items. I mean, new hook to bat that thing out of the air. That's a pretty savvy play. I bet your Valley hates that goal. On Vasilevsky, not back to his post quick enough. It's not.

It's just so lucky. It's so. At some point, you can analyze goaltending as you want, much as you want. It went off the end boards and he smacked it off his butt. But hey, credit to Marty St. Louis. Sorry, do you have a point you can make? The post game, you know, hullablo,

I'm sure you guys saw him doing a Wolf of Wall Street stuff, which, okay, that seemed weird to me, but okay. I love that he's like, he made some point of being, like, not going to win a lot of games with less intention. shots, but you won now. What is it officially the least amount of goals to win a game seven?

Like, what record did they set? Montreal. Is it on a shot? I don't know. I don't have a record in mind. To win? Was it a game seven? I know nothing of it.

I don't know. All I know is they had a goose egg. What do you mean? In the second period, did they not? Yeah, they didn't get a shot. Right? Yeah. How can this be possible?

Hockey is. Let me just do an absurd. No, no, no. It is absurd. Fewish shots in a playoff win. Thank you. Says Jake. The voice of God got that.

There you go. Thanks, Jake. For 20 plus years, we have done everything to open the game up. Everything. Flip it over the glass, penalty. Icing. Don't change your tired players. Clutching and grab and whatever.

How, in 2000. thousand and 26 can we play a 60 minute game and go 20 minutes without a shot on goal. Coop. Coaches and players are 10 times better than they've ever been. Coop did this poor. Hey, everyone's talking about how they lost the gold medal game and did the same thing to the Americans in that game. He got to ask about that. Did he? You want to hear it?

We actually have a quote. We have a producer. We have a clip. Let's go to Cooper. Clip one on the similarities to Milan. As soon as that last buzzer went, that's the feeling I have. had. I've seen this movie before, and it happened in Milan

in February, and all you can ask for your team, whether it was the Olympic tournament or best to seven playoff, is get better as you go. And I thought, we got better as we went, and I thought tonight we played our best game of the series.

Yeah, like, sometimes you win the game and not the score. When it's game seven, There's no moral victory in that. The deserve to winometer does not take the Yolkum. I kind of remember when the Leafs beat them in the first round for their first series wins since I was in high school.

And I remember the similar tone of what he was talking about. And God, do I love it. If I'm a HABS fan, I'm like putting that on repeat, listening to do my ears. Deserve doesn't matter. Meanwhile, Deserve doesn't matter. Shoot one in the net.

Everyone with a questionable coach out there is like, they should fire them. I'm hoping Cooper comes in a little. Here's his best answer. Cooper clip two on hockey gods. That's when you, at the end of the game, and you're just sitting there saying, you know, the hockey gods have been in my corner many, many times.

And tonight they're in the other corner. And that's what happens. It's, uh, and as I said, it's like, this isn't, you know, it's not the movies. It's not something where you can retake it and get the scene right. it's live theater right there in front of you, and you never know what's going to happen. That's why it's so, it's unbelievable to be a part of,

to be a part of something like this. But it damn well stings when you're on the wrong side of it. Oh, that was a deep sigh. I think that's his best answer. He's given me in years, and it's so true. It's like, as great as we think Cooper is, Or as great as he thinks he is. I don't know if that's true.

It's really, yeah. For him to acknowledge that, hey, we just didn't get the bounce. And it's so true. I don't know. I agree with that. For years when, like, Sheldon Keefe has said it, we've come in here and been like, oh, you can't say that. It's like, well, it is the truth.

I totally agree with you that it is the case. And, you know, in hockey, round piece of rubber on ice bouncing around. If you take the best team in the National Hockey League this year and you play them against the worst. So Vancouver against who was the president, Colorado. Yeah. Colorado has a 65% chance to win that game.

At best. Yeah. Oh, I mean, that's the math on that. I mean, that's how it goes in hockey. It's like it's not easy to be good enough to be guaranteed to win. It's not like basketball. Did you want to hear Marty talk about his postgame antics? Yeah, very much.

Like, it makes me sick to play it, but it's actually a great clip. And it's the legend Mike Zeyberger talking to him, asking him the question. Let's go clip two, please. post game. Yeah, I mean, I feel like you just kept... Sorry, clip two. My bad. Yeah, Marty, there's footage after the game of you running into the dressing room and pounding your chest in front of your players like that and they're all screaming. Just, you know, some of them were just the origins of that and your players are saying like you have a special bond with them. Like, I don't know if Torz has

ever done that, but we haven't seen any footage of it and just, you know, how you can sell, How you can... The relationship you have with your players and what a special moment that was because one of the most special moments you had in your career was just down the hall in the other dressing room. Yeah, I mean, I feel like you can't take the player out of me a little bit, right? And I try to...

I don't try to be in the locker room a lot. Like, to me, this is their space. It's their team. It's not my team. I'm trying to steer them. But every now and then, I've had moments with them. And I try to pick my spot. And obviously, like, tonight, you know, I wanted to be with them.

And we had some fun. It's great clip. It is. I do what? Oh, I love it. Okay, good. I thought you were about to be like, no, no, no, no, no. Not a big fan of Sean McKenzie running stairs with them, but that I can live with.

And in many ways, there is still a part of me that would prefer just to keep it in the room. and we're in the world. You don't want to. No, we're just in this world where we have to share everything. And it kind of at times makes me sick to my stomach because you lose what's authentic and what's real and what's not.

That's real because Marty is real. So I have no issues with that. And even the things that he says about picking his spots, about this is their room, all of it, love it. Because he's a player. Absolutely love it. that's real culture from a real guy.

There's others. He's doing a great job. That can really, there's other guys that can love trying to fake sincerity. Yeah. That's not him. My first thought seeing that was like, why are we in here? As the viewer, I love. Well, Kipper's really coming on.

No, no, but I loved it. Knowing it, I love seeing it, but my initial thought was like, that's a cool dressing room thing. Like, I got nothing to do it. You can't just share anything any longer, like just the guys. But Kip, like, can't. If I got my choice, I'd say, let's do it. Okay, let's take a quick break.

When we return the next general manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs, Matt Sundeen, John Chica in studio, don't go away. The best Blue Jays show out there, period. Blair and Barker. Be sure to subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome back in studio. Nick Caprio is Justin Bourne. All right, here's the trade.

Sammy McKee straight up for John Chica and Matt Sundane. We did well. I think we did well. First of all, congratulations to you both. Welcome into the studio. A big day for you guys personally. Big day for the Toronto Maple Leafs. Let's just start about today's press conference.

Sure. And how it felt to you guys both personally. you guys have been around. You've experienced being the youngest general manager in history. John with Arizona. And, Matt, you've done countless press conferences, post-games. How does today compare to what you've experienced in the past? Go ahead.

You go ahead, Tom. Well, I mean, I was the GM in Arizona. And so I was going to make a quip early about the difference in the number of cameras, relatively speaking. But I didn't feel it was the right forum. But no, it's love my time in Arizona, passionate fan base for sure, not the same as Leaves Nation. So it felt good. I think it was important to us to try to articulate a vision, you know, to tell fans, you know, where we feel what we are today, where we're headed, and answer any questions as honestly and truthfully as we could.

And so in that regard, I thought it went well. You weren't nervous there, big guy, were you? No, I know what was coming. It was a little more prepared. No, but it was great. It's great to be back. You know, I lived 13 years in Toronto. I understand the demands of the fan base,

but it's also the best place to be a hockey player in the world. And it's great to be back. Okay. In the press conference, I think Keith briefly mentioned your connection going back to, I think, 2012, did he mention the Memorial Cup? Yeah. We look at both of you today. We don't know how well you guys have known each other,

but Keith mentioned it. Talk about this relationship, where it formed, where you guys first met, how it grew and how it ultimately got the two of you guys together. Yeah, yeah,

we met in the Moro Cup in London. I was going to school at the Richard Ivy School of Business there. The Moral Cup was happening, Matt was down to watch it. And, you know, I was kind of the stats guy and, you know,

doing something different. And Matt's is obviously, you know, iconic player. So, you know, chalk shop and kind of exchange notes. And, you know, I was out scouting or, you know, watching the Leafs, just kept in contact. And look, I think the real thing we're after is, like, this is a big challenge, obviously,

and no one knows it better than Matt's. But, you know, the ability to kind of have, you know, a tandem approach. And really, you know, that's how we're going to approach this is, you know, collaboration. You know, I bring certain things to table. Obviously, Matt brings an incredible wealth knowledge of being a cap of the Toronto Maple Leafs and having success and, you know, knowing what it's like. deal with the media and what it's like to be in that locker room. And so, yeah, I think the idea here is that we can, you know, share experiences and do just do everything for the best interest

of the Toronto Maple Leafs. That's great. So, you know, you mentioned during the press conference that the process was, I think you said, exhilarating and exhausting at the same time. So I'm just curious what that looked like. Did you have to bring forth sort of a formal vision to them about what you would do if given the opportunity? Yeah, look, there was like several layers to it all. It initially was just like it kind of get to know each other, you know, share, share ideas, see if I was interested, see if there was, you know, interest on their side for my process, you know, then there was other layers of meeting, other people of the organization all the way up to, you know, Edward Rogers, of course. And along the way, you know, I had my presentation of, you know, what I felt. And then honestly, at one point, they put together a list of 20 questions, almost like an assignment at 24 hours to, you know, give them feedback on all the things that they were interested in. So again, it was very thorough, probably the most thorough process I've been part of, and I've been through a few now.

But ultimately, I understood the weight of the decision. Matt, in terms of first meeting, John, and understanding what kind of hockey-minded he had or how it grew, what ultimately was the deciding factor that this is a guy that you want to work with and try to win the Stanley Cup with? Yeah, so I met Keith for the first time, had a breakfast with him about a year and a half ago. and stayed in contact. And John's name came up. And obviously, I know he's a very smart, hardworking, you know, talk about data-driven. We talk about John, but he has broad venue and knowledge about the game, not only the data and a clear view.

I think a vision of what a winning team looks like that I share with him. And obviously, with my experience, for me, knowing what John brings to the table, I think that was a perfect match for me to join and try to help out. So I guess from an actual process and relationship for the two of you, maybe I'm sure you guys have had conversations about what it'll look like. You know, you want to trade for a guy. He's not sure about the guy or, you know,

whatever the decisions may be, how much will you have to run things by Matt's? Have you guys discussed what that will look like those conversations? Yeah, I think we've had those conversations kind of academically, of course. course. And, you know, as we get to work together on different opportunities, I think that'll flush itself out even further. But, but again, I think ultimately what we're trying to do, too, is build, like, an entire organization in a front office that, you know, we have different perspectives and different inputs, and ultimately we all put the best information on the table,

and, you know, someone's got to make a judgment call. And you can have the best data, but that doesn't mean that there's a conclusion. Someone's got to, you know, read the data and interpret it and make a decision. And that'll be our collective decision. And that'll be our collective And, you know, I'm very comfortable that, like Matt said, we have a aligned vision and a common goal. And I hope that there's, you know, a lot of people in the organization that bring other ideas that aren't ours. And, you know, force us to make good decisions that maybe didn't, you know, come from our, you know, our thought process. You're watching and listening to the 19th general manager in Toronto Maple Leaf history, John Chica and Hockey Hall of Famer. That's you, Weed.

That's me. Yeah. and our senior executive advisor of the Toronto Maple Leafs. Now, in terms of the message that you guys both gave either Keith Pelley or anyone else around the Toronto Maple Leafs in terms of your vision, I think for Maple Leaf fans, the thing they want to know the most is not necessarily the details of the plan, but like how quickly can the plan come into effect here?

Are we talking about a team that, They can look forward to challenging for a playoff spot as early as next season. Is there a thought that this could turn into maybe a two to four, a three to five year plan? Are you prepared for both? Yeah, to answer your first question about what we talked to Keith about. I think it's important. And then we talked to Edward about it. You know, as I think about building out an organization, I think, I said this at the beginning.

There's two tracks, right? Like, there's the foundational pieces. Amateur scouting, player development, player care. sports science, R&D, the list goes on. These are things that hopefully will sustain the Toronto Maple Leafs for a very long time and honestly well beyond my years, hopefully. That's the goal. And I think those things are, you know, daily things.

Everyone in the organization, every day is going to be committed to doing that again and again and again and again. And so we have a real player development machine. And, you know, if we can do that, we'll put ourselves in a really good position to answer your question, you know, much more forcefully. I think the other track on that is, like I said, you know, every season is an opportunity. And every season, I think, is sacred for this organization, for our fans, for the owner, for ourselves. And we owe it to, you know, give it everything we've got to put the best team on the ice.

And I think we've got some world-class talent, like that's a good starting point. I think there's a gap, like I said, between, you know, where we're at today, we're realistic. You know, we know what our record is that we're coming in with. And we know that we need to get further. How fast, you know, the opportunity set is going to dictate a bit. But certainly, as Matt and I stood here and think about, you know, what we need to get further. need to do to get this team to the next level and get some momentum back. And remember, this is a team that's been good for a long time. Not great yet, but good. And, you know, there's some, there's some,

there's some pride there. And this is the first time they've missed in a long time. They're going to, players are going to come back and dictate, you know, what that next season looks like. Yeah, you mentioned sort of jumping on a moving train here. There is going to be a lot for you to catch up on. And obviously, Matt, you're stepping into it as well. Where, Matt, where do you see your focus on a day to day right now? Like, when you, you're going to be a lot. Like, you're going to be a lot. You come in, are you immediately like, hey, it's, you know, trade deadlines coming up? You're looking at player personnel, or where are your priorities to start? Well, I think Keith and MLSC, I think there's value to bring in experience that actually

lived in and been there. And, you know, we went to the conference finals a couple of times, my era. Doug Gilmore, Wendell Clark was at the press conference. They had some good runs. And earlier generations of Toronto, May police that. been in that dressing room, been in the locker room, seeing what's been good when you have those runs, when you actually have a team in terms of the culture,

what kind of people are in that room, but also things that have gone bad. So I hope I'm going to be able to support, you know, John and the management, but also coaches and players. And I think with my experience, I have a good view on what needs, what kind of character, what kind of vision needs to be in that locker room,

if you're in a winning team, they're successful in the playoffs. And so hopefully I'm going to be able to contribute all those pieces there. In terms of culture, it's a term used a lot around our game and some understand it better than others. A lot was made out of Goudis going after the Captain Austin Matthews and having a lack of response.

John, if you were, and I'll ask Matt's as well. Yeah, yeah. You know, if you were in the position of Brad Tree Living last season, how would you have portrayed that? What kind of message would you have had the players the following day watching that? I'll answer the reaction piece, but I'd say how I think about that is more on the proactive side. And it's all the stuff Matt was just talking about where, yeah, how can you build an environment where, you know, players feel supported? They're really, you know, have each other's backs.

We have their backs as the front office. And, you know, like you said, culture is a big word, but whether it's communication, whether it's the, you know, resources we're supporting them with, you know, how mats can support them.

You know, I think our goal is to, you know, build up a great locker room. And I think, you know, once you're reacting to something like that, it's challenging. You know, I can't speak to what Brad did exactly because I wasn't there. I don't know.

But obviously, I think in those scenarios, you got to address things and be direct and be honest. And I think the team expects that of leadership. And that that's what I would do. Anything that? Well, you said pretty much all, but I think, yeah, it's, and you know, Kipper, you know, it's,

people don't really know until you're in a great locker room, like a winning culture, until you're actually there and feel it, right? And I think, you know, the game has changed from when we played, obviously, but even if you go back five, ten years. But I think certain things are the same in terms of that, You know, the culture, I know culture is, it's a wide thing to talk about. But when you have that group that is so tight and everybody's committed to a bigger goal than just, and everybody's trying to be better so I can help to get to that vision that we're trying to get to as a team.

And that's not automatic. And you need everybody in the direction room, not only players, everybody that works around it. And when you get to that, then I think you can create great things. I think, you know, we both experienced this is the biggest, at times most scrutinized market in the world when it comes to hockey. There is a level that you want to protect the players too, but you got to hold them accountable as well. That's the fine line. Absolutely. Absolutely.

And I couldn't agree more. And I think when you have, I think all teams are successful in the players. And we never got to win the Stanley Cup, but even when you go to the conference finals, you have some of that great stuff going on where actually players are also holding each other accountable, right? So I think management and coaches can only do so much to put them there. At the end of the day,

it has to be the group of players that eventually are taking charge of that, right? And holding each other accountable too. Certainly one of the things that sort of helps with culture is winning, Right, that's something that, you know, if you can just get there, things seem to go a little bit better. So you talked about the gap there between where the Leafs are at and where you're trying to get to, maybe selling Austin Matthews a little bit on making sure he wants to be a part of the program in the years ahead. So Kipper said, I'm not going to make you outline the vision. But I would like to have some conversation about, you know, how you close that gap,

which obviously can't be done overnight. But what are the steps to getting towards what may be a John Chica style team? Yeah, look, I would start with, like, the internal. Like, I think that this is a team that did underperform. I think there's, like, a lot of players that have some latent upside. And, you know, have performed better historically and didn't do that this year. And so, you know, I'm an outsider, I can guess. I'm going to get inside.

And with Matt's, we're going to, you know, have a lot of conversations. And try to understand that, I'd say, first and foremost, to Matt's his point about a common vision, you know, and this is not a new idea. But, you know, having elite goaltending, having, you know, top echelon, puck moving. skating defensemen and obviously having the game changers up front. Like that's, you know, that's the, that's the equation. You know, where we see opportunities is certainly how we defend and how we exit the zone and, you know, how we move through the neutral zone.

Those are areas where we think, you know, again, historically we've done a better job as a team and, you know, we think there's some opportunities as well. John, I don't know if you had a chance to hear Leon Dreisadle talk about the Edminton-Oilor situation, not that you have anything to do with that, but it's really clear that he made Edmontonians know that they're on the clock for two years and they got to get something done in two years with Connor McDavid. Austin was noncommittal in his exit meetings with I can't predict the future. You mentioned that there might be a bit of a sales job right now for a program and something that he can believe in. How big of a concern is it for Lee fans that

Austin is on the clock? Look, I think sales job is maybe not the right. word, but I think certainly anytime you have, you know, world-class players that are driven to win, you have an obligation as an organization to fulfill, you know, a plan. And look, I think a lot of Austin's comments are totally fair. If I was in his shoes, I would be thinking about the same way in terms of, you know, he's in the prime of his career. He's the best goal score. Obviously, he's a captain here, expected to lead. And, you know, we've got to find, you know, common vision and a common goal where we can, you know, get the job done. And again, I think there's some things we got to do as a an organization and we'll align those for him.

I also think there's some things that, you know, he's thought of or, you know, he might have ideas of ways we can be better. And I think we need to be responsive to that. And then I think it's a partnership on ultimately, like, you know, when you're getting to those levels of players, it's a partnership with the players in the organization. Obviously, we have our job to do and he's got his. But, you know, there's a real synergy, I'd say, as to, you know, how he sees the game. He's lived it.

He's the captain. It's his room. You know, what can we do together to try to get this thing to the next level? level. That's the conversation we intend on having. I don't know, Matt's, if you have anything else on that? I said it all. Well, I'll ask you, I'll add just a little bit like, Matt's, you've been around here for a bit now. You know, you have all the team and you're here on and off. You talk about being, getting internal and talking to people. Do you have sort of a plan of talking to the players, the staff? Whenever anyone gets a new boss, everyone gets nervous, I'm sure, and wants to know what's going on. What's the plan as you guys are? I think we're going to try to meet everybody. actually. And I think you'll get great information from everybody. So I think we need to meet everybody and evaluate and see what's going on. In terms of the time frame, John, especially you as general manager, to come in and make some hard decisions rather quickly. I mean, can Lee fans anticipate

that you could make a decision on Craig Barrowby as early as a week? Does everybody get the benefit of the doubt of a clean slate here? Morgan Riley. He's another name where a lot of fans are going. It's just time for a change now. Does he come in with a clean slate as well come training camp and get a chance to prove himself to you compared to others? Yeah, I would say this way. Like, I don't think there's any deadlines on anything.

Certainly we're not behold. I mean, there's, you know, the regular calendar of the NHL, but there will be no internal deadlines in terms of how we go about our process. But in fairness to your question, which I think is a good one, is there's a timeline. And the timeline's tight. I mean, we've got a lot of ground to come. cover. We've got a lot of important decisions to make. And that's not biased by saying we're going to

make those decisions in any one way or the other. You know, Craig is your example. It's a great, great head coach, Morgan Riley's the longest 10-year leaf, good defensemen. So these aren't, you know, easy decisions, and it's not something that we're going to, you know, just get a decision done to get a decision done. We want to make the right decisions for the organization, again, for the short and long term. John, I want to address the idea that you're an analytics guy. Sure. You know, that's like sort of the thing these days, right? New Jersey just hired an analytics guy. What does that mean? Like, in what capacity will you use that information that would make you different from some who's a, and I'm going to air quote, hockey guy. Yeah. You know,

the way I think about this job is it's like a leadership position. And I've learned that more and more as I've done it. And it's like, right in the title, it's a general manager. And so, you know, as much as you're trying to find competitive advantages, and I think that is a role of a general manager is, you know, what's our right to win? What's our edge? And how can you define that so that you're not just doing the same thing as everybody else

and hoping that the lottery balls fall for you or something like that? So, you know, I think there's advantages in data. I think there's advantage of sports science and a lot of these emerging technologies and fields and it's how we integrate that into the fundamentals. You know, because the fundamentals are always going to be the fundamentals. And if you can do that successfully,

I think those are the teams that win. And if you do one or the other, I think, you know, you're probably beta and you're, you know, always scrapping it out. And so, you know, our vision and our goal is to leverage, you know, new methods and new ways of doing things and integrate that in a really thoughtful way. And I think if you can do that, you'll have success.

I imagine you've seen the data on the team last season, dead last in almost every category, outshot out chance, expected goals, quite frankly, a disaster here. Is that up to you now to come in and decide whether that's coaching or player personnel real quick? Yeah, I think we're going to go diagnose that. Yeah, and I would just say this too, like, you know, data is again a part of the picture. There's a lot of things that play, you know, injuries, underperformance, you know, whether there's culture issues or not, I don't know. But like, you know, those are all the other kind of intangibles that you want to get through

and understand and weigh those properly. So I don't think it's as fair as just hanging numbers on someone that's not how I would do it. But certainly I think it does, again, provide like some type of a hypothesis to say why, why are these numbers the way they are and, you know, then, you know, create an action plan to go fix it. As you guys were going through this process, Matt's, a lot of stuff was coming out about what the roles might look like. And at one point, I think people thought you might be president or vice president. Was there a reason you steered away from that particular title? Well, I think I'm old enough to recognize my strengths and weaknesses and what I can do and contribute.

And so for me, knowing that John was going to take this role, I thought it was a perfect match. I think we can complement each other. I know things, and with my experience, 18 years in the league, and watching international hockey, and even now the last three, four years, fallen the prospects in Europe. So I thought it was a perfect combination

to come in with John, and I think we're going to compliment each other very well. John, as far as the work behind the scenes, in terms of the structure, the Leafs have been known to have multiple, assistant general managers. There's still people under contract. Do you decide the structure now?

Is that fall under your responsibility with, from a medical team to pro and amateur scouting and the build that you slowly want around you and Matt's? Yeah, like you said, it's me and Matt's. So, you know, him and I will go through that process. And then I think it's, again, maybe, you know, it's step by step. So, you know, we'll, you know, put together our core group of, of, you know, executives front office.

And then, you know, you'll make decisions, you know, as it relates to medical or scouting or, you know, pro scouting. So, you know, it's a group approach always. And ultimately, you know, Matt and I'll agree on what that looks like on the go forward. Do you have a thought, you know, you guys are big night tomorrow night. Lottery balls will drop and you'll find out if you have the fifth or first or second or no pick in the first round.

Do you have a preference, let's say you're where to keep the pick positionally going into this or are you going to go into your scouting meetings and say you guys tell me what you've been working on? So my preference is number one. Yeah, to be clear. Yeah, if we could have number one pick. No, look, I think I'm a big believer, like the amateur scouts have been all year working on their draft list. And I know that I've already had some conversations like they've got a fulsome list. It's not five guys. It's not 10 guys. It's like, you know, A to Z and all the leagues. And to your point about resources, like we definitely aren't short on resources to make sure we've got a book on everybody.

So, yeah, look, the balls will fall where they will. We don't have any control over that. What we can control is when we do make a pick, making the best possible pick. And what I understand, you know, we're in a really good spot there. As far as what was prior to you arriving here was a lot of talk, a lot of rumors, and you can expect more with the lakes of Elliott Friedman and company. But, you know, the sense was that they were Bradtree living and the Leafs were open.

to looking at a lot of things, including some big names in the past. At times, we've used the word untouchable. We certainly got the sense that Austin and Willie aren't going anywhere. You're not interested in shopping them. You're interested in building around them. Is that fair to ask? Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment. Yep.

Yeah, we're talking about world-class players. I think any time you talk about, again, no one's untouchable, but, you know, you're trying to get better. And, you know, moving world-class players is hard. to get better. So I would not anticipate that that's something that makes sense. Again, the point is not to make a move to make a move. You're trying to improve your roster.

And so when you're talking about players of that caliber, it's a challenge, of course, and that's a good thing. That's a good problem to have. And similarly, there's a lot of other great players in the roster that, again, hypothetically, you know, you can talk about what's the value, et cetera. I think there's a lot of really good players that would also fall into the category of hard to move because you like them and because they add value. you because they're good players and they're on good contracts.

And so, you know, again, we'll go through all of that. But, yeah, I think it's a fair assessment. And, Matt, you mentioned all those former teammates here, years that were there today, which is pretty cool. You anticipate bringing back anyone into the fold from your time that you played with some of those relationships? Hey. This guy sitting here.

It's okay. You can look at me. You got a long contract here, Kipper. How does it look? I'd help you out. Oh, wow. Yeah, I think it's way too early. I think we have a lot of work to do with the assessments.

And kind of we've been watching the team from the outside. So there's a lot of work ahead and we'll see what happens. I did like the fact that you guys mentioned the Leaf alumni a couple of times. I don't ever recall covering the Leafs and hearing, you know, it referred to in a press conference. And I think I really liked it. Yeah. Just a personal point of view.

I like this. It showed up. It was amazing. You know. Yeah. A lot of good minds there. You can lean on. Yeah, and I just think that great organizations

needs to learn from what's been going on, right? And John mentioned it. You want to build something that's a lasting great organization for the future. And I think there's mistakes that have been done, my era, your era when you played, and great things that happen. And you just want to learn from that

so you don't have an organization that keeps making the same mistakes. And does that include being involved in the business facets of things for you? Well, I mean I know he's a business guy He's the cap and the CVA Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

No, but I'll, you know, I'm going to It's going to be really great for me to be Beside John, there's a lot there That I'm going to learn And I'm sure John We're going to be able to help him With stuff that's going on in the room That actually are important

If you're going to have a winning culture there So I think it's going to be a good collaboration there Well, listen, we appreciate your time wish you the best of luck moving forward. Thanks for coming in. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. Thank you.

Thank you. That is John Chica, your general manager of the Toronto Maple Leafs and the great Matt Sundane. Back after these words. Hey, it's Blake Murphy. And I'm Matt Bonner. Join us weekday mornings at 11 as we break down all things Toronto Raptors. It's the Raptor show on Sportsnet 590 The Fan.

And wherever you get your podcasts. As a reminder, this hour of Real Kipper and Bourne brought to by Bet, Bet 365. See, I got the numbers right there. Nailed it. Ciprio's, Justin Boren. Sammy McKee. I think in the musical chairs, I got your chair here,

and I got to tell you, I do not like it. Are you squirming around? All right. Post-game comments. That was like... I felt like we were doing a play. We were moving around on this. Senior advisor of the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Give me your overall thoughts. My overall thoughts are that they genuinely seem to be heading into this. Like they got a lot to figure out here, right? Like they're going to talk to people. Yeah. That's step one. What's been going on?

Yeah. My original thought here coming out of break is there's a ton of work to do. And I don't know how much is going to get accomplished in the next few months. I think it's just very hard, right? like you're talking about, if you're talking to fans, they want the coach,

they want trades made by the deadline. They're just getting going. So I did ask them, Sammy, about Austin and Willie. And not, we basically put every rumor to rest here for them being moved or traded. It's not happening. I think judging by the hires,

like, I mean, I'm not going to type Matt Sundeen with William Neelander, but like they have a history together. When they went did that Sweden tour together, they were very involved. And Chica seems to be a pretty close with Matthews. Like it kind of lends to us keeping both those guys around here. They're going to be here. Yeah. I'm not surprised to hear him say that.

And he was pretty demonstrative in his answer to you guys about how they're elite players and they want to build around them. Like I. But he was a GM for four years in Arizona and their best player the whole time at like 50 points. So if they are, If they are untouchable, which we assume that Matthew Nyes is as well. I mean,

and Easton Cowan. I think he should be, but are you assuming that? I am assuming that. Okay. Then how are they going to get better? Well, this is the thing. This is the creativity that, you know, we're even kind of hoping to see.

And I don't know, Kep, I don't know. But I think if you asked Chica that, whatever, two minutes ago, I don't think he has that answer yet either. It's that they have all these tools of their disposal and you start going to work on it. What else can you do? You know, you just make some calls, see who's available.

Puck moving defenseman. Puck moving defenseman. How do we get a puckman? That's the first thing you do. You sit down, you go, where's my office? Number two, overall, chase read. That's how you get a puck moving defenseman. That would really help.

It's crazy that they did all this today. and tomorrow is the draft letter. Like, are they both going to the draft water? We should have asked them. I liked Radish's game in Tampa during the series against Montreal. I believe you said earlier this year that just put them on the trial police to start the year.

That's a signing that could change the feel of that blue line. Sure help if someone could shoot it in 15 times from the back end next year. 12 times. Here's the only gamble is that he's, 30 years old that he's really only done it once. That's a small little technicality. He's D. Bobby McMahon. Yeah, he really.

He's D. Bobby McMahon. It's like, yeah, the next couple of years, he's going to be effective. Undrafted. No problem. Moved his way up. Yeah. Started to get some NHL time and then made the best of it and had an unbelievable. He really is.

Yeah. Yeah. Now that I think of it, he had a career year and a contract year. Yeah. Go get your paycheck. And then hopefully they're effective. for a couple more years. I think that makes a huge difference.

I mean, it's the power play that was putrid all year. Also, it's just one of the only places. Like, sorry, Kip just talked about, like, how do you get these guys? UFA, there's no one out there. But if you can get UFA, that's no assets out the door, that's a great place to start. I don't know who else is out there.

You know who else? I think Tampa's Dominic James is a UFA too. Really like him. Oh, I liked him a lot too in the years. I'm sure Tampa likes him a lot too, so. But I think he's awesome. Well, Radish, probably signed an 11-year $7

contract in Tampa. What does this all be over? Those aren't allowed. Oh, they'll figure it out. Alongside Coops deal. They'll figure it out somehow. New extension. They'll figure it out.

Yeah, I would say that, like, they weren't the most forthcoming with you guys. Like, I felt like you asked a lot of questions. You asked good questions, but they didn't. They weren't necessarily. They're guarded. They've always been guarded. Yeah.

Okay. They gain nothing by coming out here laying their cards on the table. No, I agree. I get that. I get that. But I think in years past, a lot of the other people have been very open.

Like, I mean, a living talk, like he would be willing to tell you, kind of lay it out there. Maybe it's good that they're not saying anything. One of the things I wrote in my article today is all these other guys that have come in over the years

have made promises. You know, we're a Hall of Fame guys and we're going to turn this thing around and we're going to play like this and we're going to, whatever. And everyone's like, now we're going to win. And the pressure is there immediately.

I think these two have been a little bit more measured. We'll see how this goes, you know? And I think Leif's fans should be aware that that's probably the right way to play. They still got to, they got to decide who stays and who goes. And like I said, there's, there's multiple assistant general managers. He doesn't need them all.

Okay, there are some issues medically. Who stays, who goes? amateur scouting it's been atrocious that the past 10 years right? Well, I mean you got to clean up

a little bit here and sometimes you are guilty by association and your guilt is that you were part of a losing program Well, you're right but to me it's like okay Kip so if you're talking

about those type of roles what do they have to go on aside from what people internally tell them and internally you just get people playing politics trying to juice up their own resume and it's tough to come in and be like, you're fired, you're cool.

How many of you guys talked for the articles that have been coming out here? Which one of you were the one that was saying? When you're athletic contact. Let me check your, go full baths. We check your phone. There's always firings and new hirings and you let people go.

Okay? It's not that out of the ordinary. No. Well, I mean, you've been given a big job and they have to make art. And John has, he's got a history with other people. you know so he's got some people in mind that he wants and it's like internally to work with him yes here yeah yeah and it's like i can't get you here right away be patient and let me let me go

through my due diligence here and clean up a few things and i'll bring you over that's the way it works with a lot of general managers and to bring someone in you typically have to clear a seat yes correct So do you have any intel on inside who may go, who may not be a part of this? No, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that because there's a lot of people that are, that don't know. There's staff in there. They haven't been told anything.

There's staff in that office that have found out that John and Matt's are now the guys just like the rest of us did through the press release. Yeah. So, you know, whether or not they stay, whether or not they go, how many years are on their contracts. It's crazy. Like, you would have to think if you want to talk to all these people internally, your next five days are just sitting in an office and saying, get these people through my office. Hi, how are you? Oh, man.

You know, that's a long, get to know your process. That's the world of professional sports, man. Win and you're in, lose. God. And you don't know where you're going. It's a big job. Big job. Big job.

Scary. How about the Colorado Avalanche scoring nine hockey goals last night? I watched Kail McCar. I was drooling watching Kail McCar last night, boys. He got nailed by Marcus Flino, got knocked out. Yeah, his leg almost went over his own head. Comes back.

He just scores the nastiest goal in the power. Just down the right wing, bar down opposite side. Quinn Hughes versus McCar. Two best guys in the league. He'll take six more games of that. Yeah, but I mean. 15 goals. There's no question who I'd rather have between those two.

You know a card. Yes. 10 times at 10. Yeah. Me too. Yeah. They asked Bednar after the game about it. He was like, I don't know.

I don't know. I have no answer. Every shot went in there for a little bit. It was wild. Our thanks to John Chica and Matt Sundin in studio. If you happen to just join us right now, give us a download on Spotify or Apple Podcast. You can rewatch on YouTube where you're always giving us a thumbs up.

Because we really like that. Because we're shallow. Yes. We need the validation. How many games on tap tonight, Sammy? Two. Flyers in Carolina get going at 7 p.m., Sportsnet, CBC, and then Anaheim and Vegas.

All right. NJs, 640, early first pitch. Enjoy your night. Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening.