Real Kyper & Bourne - Remembering Leafs Icon Borje Salming

Episode Date: November 24, 2022

Nick Kypreos and Justin Bourne remember the late Maple Leafs legend Borje Salming and look back at the celebration of his career during the Hockey Hall of Fame weekend in Toronto. The guys are joined by former Maple Leaf Stu Gavin (4:45) to share his time playing alongside Salming and the type of player he was on the ice and teammate in the locker room. Then, Nick, Justin and producer Sam McKee recap Toronto's 2-1 win over the New Jersey Devils (20:50), the idea of developing others to play on the penalty kill, and the Devils' fans reaction to the third disallowed goal. Next, Former NHLer and Hockey Night in Canada broadcaster Garry Galley (42:46) discuss the Leafs' strength in their defensive game, Rasmus Sandin's elevated opportunity on the blueline and Auston Matthews' lowered production in goal scoring. Finally, general manager of the Minnesota Wild Bill Guerin (1:05:36) reveals how Ryan Reaves would fit on the Wild's lines, why he traded for the forward, and if personality in his players is an important aspect of a winning team. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

This is Real Kipper and Bourne on Sportsnet 590 The Van. Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne, Derek Brandeo, Frank the Tank, Sam McKee, all with you for the next two hours. We start the Real Kipper and Bourne show on a sad note. Legendary NHL defenseman, Boreas Salming, who earlier this year revealed his battle with ALS has died at the age of 71. A fixture on that blue line for over 16 years. No question, someone that we look to is our our closest to royalty at toronto maple leaf boria salmi yeah well said um you know really i know a lot of heavy hearts

out there special day or special that he was able to come here to Toronto and sort of pay tribute. You know, I said talking to you before the show, I just said, you know, it's unbelievable the timing that he was able to do it. Had it been a week later, who knows if he'd physically have been able. And also, it was kind of like getting to be at your own funeral. And you mentioned that he had said that. Yeah, he did. I know, you know, being part of the alumni that weekend, being down there,

he knew he was coming to say goodbye to the people that have meant the most to him, I think, you know, outside his family. Extraordinary effort. That is the hockey world on a very big stage. Yeah. And it took all of his strength. We saw that. We saw the emotion that he had.

And his teammates had. And it was incredibly gut-wrenching to see what he had to go through just to get to that point. But we shouldn't be surprised based on his career, his early battles to prove that not only that he could belong in the National Hockey League as a pioneer,

first European player to really make it, but then excel as an all-star. Yeah, there is something about effort and not to trivialize, but playing through injury. Guy got there and got out on that ice one last time to be there for Leafs fans and hockey fans and to appreciate his legacy and what he's meant to this organization. So, you know, there is some mercy, of of course for people who are suffering for him i

don't know how things are going at the end but just glad he got to be here and be a part of that yeah we're gonna catch up with uh stew gavin who uh played five seasons with the toronto maple leafs including uh all of them with aboria salmi uh want to get his thoughts on the teammate that he was and the things that he watched on a daily basis right which it's it's hard to explain and i did not get a chance to to battle much against borya salming and you know sammy i kind of give it to you a little bit on the lineup. And you have that he's played 1,148 games in the NHL, but not all with the Toronto Maple Leafs. Right.

Because he played, if I'm not mistaken, 49 games with Detroit. And you know how I know that? No. I scored my first NHL goal and he was playing against me. Was he on the ice? No, I don't think he was on the ice. I think some maybe rookie named

Nick Lidstrom took the dash on that one. I'm not sure. But Boria, it was his last season, 89-90oria uh it was uh his last season at 89 90 and uh it was uh kind of surreal to see a childhood hero on the other side and you of course you want to keep your game face on and look like you're playing the part right but uh it was always that that part of you said oh my god i can't believe boria salmi's on the other side of the ice yeah yeah that that must be an incredible trip and you know they talked about

some of the guys in the leafs like nick robertson going out there against crosby the one day you know and sheldon keith saying he went through that when he was a rookie and and just the experience of playing against your heroes for the first time and at some point you got to snap out of it and still go play hockey so easier said than. I'm sure that was eye-opening. Okay, let's welcome in Stu Gavin, a teammate of Boria's. And while I speak of my one experience of playing against Boria Salming, you had what, Stu, over five years day-to-day with the man? Yeah, I broke into the Leafs in 1980 with Borea.

And just, Kipper, listening to your first time playing against BJ, but as someone who's passionate about hockey, let alone playing the game, but also just love watching the game as a younger boy and man, I would watch Borea and thelyse play and marvel at his skill. But when I turned pro, my experience was it was more of a veteran team. There were a few young guys, and usually the veterans would go after the games. But Borey was always one guy as a veteran. He was married and family, but would always include the younger guys

and really made you feel welcome and and uh just a a really fun guy to go around and and cared about all his teammates and um as intimidating as it is to step into the nhl as a 20 year old and all the first being your rookie year i mean he was one of the vets that really eased that transition and quite frankly made you feel that you should be there and welcomed you. And a very, very sad day in the hockey world. What they do is a Boris passing. Yeah, really.

After five years of knowing him and keeping in touch with him and having a relationship post-career, it's very sad for he and his family and for all the hockey community. And Stu, just to talk about Borey and the passion, not only did he have for the game, but in life in general. And we know, Stu, that there were a few nights out that he probably enjoyed as much as the next guy.

And we've all had those teammates that they could go out, they could have a few beers or maybe a few more, and still the next day, like, go out there and skate like the wind or be the best player the next night. And, I mean, I couldn't be that guy. I knew it. Others knew it. But then there were these guys that were just specimen or,

or just like ultra talented, but, but Boria could be that guy. Yeah, he, he, he was that guy. I think of when I, when someone said, what's it like to play with Boria? Other than an unbelievably skilled individual and great teammate and a great leader. But he was back in the 80s. There wasn't a lot of physical conditioning. And this guy was absolute ripped and Adonis.

And you could just see all the muscles and the sinewing and his tendons and everything in his body. And it was like the medical chart where you see what his body looked like, but he was a Trojan. He was like just a warrior, and, you know, he would play really hard on the ice back in those days. It was the – they would call the Swedish players some foul names and not think that they would stand up for themselves and push back or fight back. And while he didn't fight, he used his body as a battering ram

and competed every night, and guys would throw everything at him, but he would give it right back. But he played hard on the ice and competed hard, and we had a lot of fun away from the rink. He and others, but Borey was very good at maybe paying the price a little bit on the road or at night, but he would be the guy, even the morning skate, I can remember him coming in, maybe where some guys wouldn't be there.

He'd cough a bit, sore throat, literally jump on the ice with his trench coat on, throw the skates on his trench coat, just do a couple laps. He was Batman. Oh, yeah, jump off the ice and go and have a good nap in the afternoon and then come back out and be first star that night and just dominate. So, you know, he lived life large and, but you know, he would have had a lot of fun including his teammates and, but then competed. He didn't, it was no excuses in his game. He didn't, you know, if he was feeling a little off, even if he was sick or had was feeling a little under the weather,

whether it be self-induced or otherwise, he would be competing. So did you have to deal with that in practice then? Doesn't sound like the type of guy that I'd want to be going up against. Did he maintain that level against his teammates? Well, yeah, he would compete, especially the guys with Daryl, their best of friends. You know, they would, just their nature,

they would compete in practice. You'd see them battling, and it showed what it takes to, you know, to get to that next level and stay there. And you have to compete not just in practice but in the games, and they would do that and he would do that. But he would also embarrass you. And so often, you know, to try to go down one-on-one or with a great huge stick so so well and his body so well to block lanes and and the other i remember uh you know i'd be penalty

killing so i'd go out on the left point and try to get him and and hug the board singing his only play is back down the boards i'm going to block it and he takes a puck whips it through his legs and then goes on his forehand across the blue line for a shot i'm still hugging the boards at the at the blue i mean he's 10 feet away so he would embarrass you with his skill let alone in practice and many guys in a game we're talking to stew gavin uh former toronto maple leaf and teammate of boria salming uh the one thing that was was special was the relationship that he had with the fans and even the one with Harold Ballard, the late Harold Ballard. And we know the stories about Harold.

But, you know, it wasn't hard to see how people gravitated to this guy, including the owner. Yeah, he was loved by all. And, you know, there's a lot of stories about Harold. But for me personally, and even with him being the owner of the team when I played there, I never once heard him come down on really any one of the teammates. He loved to play with the media and spin that and create stories

and keep the Leafs front and center, if not on the sports page and in the papers. But he loved Boria like a son, like a lot of us, because he looked up to him and respected him. But he saw what would compete and he saw his commitment to the team and commitment to his teammates and just competing, trying to win for the Leafs. And back then, we didn't have a lot of wins,

but he wasn't mailing it in or packing it in. He was there every night and led by example. But Borea, sorry, a lot of people would look up to him, and Harold for sure was, I think it was a softie. He had some guys that he really loved, and Borea for sure was one. Hey, Stewie, on late notice, thanks for doing this. We really appreciate it. Sad day for all hockey fans, just not Toronto Maple Leaf fans.

But thank you for sharing some wonderful memories on Borea Salmi. Yeah, he's the hockey world's big loss, but a great, great man, a great warrior, and fantastic teammate. Thanks, guys. Live every day to its fullest. Thanks, Stu. Appreciate it. Former Toronto Maple Leaf

and teammate of Borea Salming. That was Stu Gavin. Yeah, it's... You know, you hear a lot of the same things from people talking about borya huh just like um you know regardless of the conditions he showed up showed up and put himself out there and but you know stew made an excellent point he just didn't show up and take it he gave it back yeah and that's what i think uh uh sometimes gets lost in it a little bit. And, you know, I was old enough to see the battles against the Philadelphia Flyers and the Chicken Sweet

and all of that stuff. And he, you know, the true definition of toughness for me is just, you know, not backing off and not giving an inch off of it, no matter how scared you are or intimidated you might be, you just don't give up that inch. And that was him. And he, like, I haven't talked to a lot of the old flyers,

including, you know, Bob Clark, but, you know, they learned it. They learned that, you know, you couldn't intimidate that guy. You can come at him. Maybe you can sucker punch him. Maybe you can beat him up in a fight. But that inch, he ain't giving up. Man, the early Swedes had to be tough, huh? I was thinking Boria came across, and then Bob Nystrom was on the Islanders.

He wasn't rolling over for anyone either. Like, you know, I think there was so much pressure, and there were so many guys leaning on them. had to stand stand their ground you know to show that they would the samuelsons were not not tough that's for sure so the one thing thing that i always hear about and they mentioned it in his uh when they did the the video for him the saturday night however long ago that was where they talked about the ovation he got when he came back playing against against canada for sweden right and then you talk about the relationship that he had with the fans that one always stuck out to me like i don't know if there's any player like would austin

matthews get an ovation in toronto if there was if their usa was playing canada like there's just no chance like that is an incredible impact on the fans for um again you want to talk about a pioneer that was really our first international taste because we had already gone through uh the summit series right but that was the first time in in nhl history where you had a relationship with someone on the other side. So we knew nothing about the Russians. And to that point, we really knew nothing in 76 on anybody else at the time. Czechoslovakia, Finland, the U.S. Of course, we had the U.S.

Of course, we had some names, but... Primarily nameless opponents. Over water. Yeah. He was the first one that we knew on another team, and that was a passage of, we get to cheer for him. Yeah, that's interesting. I think that's really cool. We get to cheer for him.

That is our first... And now we we do olympics and world cups and everybody knows about everybody well we used to do those oh yeah you get what i'm saying right he was the first one yeah it's interesting it's really interesting extra connection there yeah i just that that just always stuck out to me whenever I've heard that story and saw that actual ovation. It's very cool. So, one of those guys, it's just before my time, and I just really wish more than anything he wasn't. Because I like, the impact that he made and everything, it's one of those things that gets talked about amongst your era of Leaf fans, Kip.

And it just is something that I don't truly understand, and it's one that I wish I really did. Think these Leafs could use a big tough skilled i think i think they might be able to use something like that but i thought stew was great by the way yeah he was great excellent and what i wouldn't pay to see boria solomon taking a twirl in a trench coat oh no no no no i got one better for you i got one better for you um road trips any time he had a chance to do stuff like ski yeah and they didn't pack for skiing so he's he's skiing i should ask stewie about this but he would ski down the hill in his trench coat i loved his trench dress trench coat and probably his dress pants

but you you kind of need better knee movement. He must have been a hell of a skier to be able to ski in a trench coat. Whatever he could do outdoor, he absolutely loved. And I'm not sure where he was exactly from Sweden, but north Sweden. I don't think we're talking Stockholm here. We're talking about sleds. Yeah. And dogs pulling. Coronauna sweet yeah is that does that sound right to you karuna i i would imagine that um

you know boryan la or at the time la or anywhere south and sunny probably wouldn't have done it for him it is funny there is a always a couple guys in every team who have uh interests who aren't hockey or that aren't hockey and that's always strange it's like you own hockey takes up so much of your time so when you come across a teammate is like yeah i actually like to go do anything other than hockey it's always pretty unique well we uh we've got a good show still and we're going to continue probably to share some memories on Boria Salming. Gary Gally will be with us in about 22, 23 minutes. Former National Hockey Leaguer. I'm sure he remembers Boria well. We'll get his thoughts.

And in the second hour, former NHL and present general manager of the Minnesota Wild. Bill Guerin will join us. We'll talk about his team and maybe uh the leafs can expect out of their new tough guy ryan reeves now a member of the minnesota wild and and borny knows him he must love you to come on on thanksgiving yeah this is not a fun day to have to do anything usually you're just on the couch having to he must love you and i i gotta apologize i gotta apologize to you uh i forgot that you're american you should have the day off today no no you should be off today i consider myself canadian for the record okay all right but my wife is she's american okay well my wife's american too yeah so let's both take the day off she she is taking the day

off she's down she's with her parents right now yeah my kids are with her they're doing the thanksgiving thing you're stuck up here with us oh my god kippy i took off friday yeah you know you gotta be you gotta pick uh your spots yeah yeah you know american thanksgiving or next year go up at quail Hall on a Friday afternoon. You made the right call. Next U.S. Thanksgiving we'll get our families together. My wife will do a big feast. We got a lot of listeners.

YouTube, our podcast of course. Happy Thanksgiving to all of you south of the border. I'm so jealous of their... There's two things I'm really jealous of, and it's their college sports fandom and their Thanksgiving.

Those are the two number one things. Thanksgiving's unbelievable. So cool. I mean, Wednesday night is the biggest party night of the year in the U.S. Everyone comes back from university, sees their hometown friends, and just gets sideways.

And just watching the Detroit Lions on Thanksgiving. What a tradition. They're winning right now. Are they? They're up 22-19 over the Buffalo Bills with seven minutes left in the football. Wow. So they'll lose in heartbreaking fashion, as is tradition. As is tradition.

You know who did not lose? Oh, baby. The Toronto Maple Leafs last night. 3-20. 20 minutes till we mention it. it put putting uh an exclamation point on their win is shutting down a 13 game winning streak by the new jersey devils no small task i gotta give you guys credit you called it i thought maybe the the momentum no i didn't call it i said i was pissed off can i had just lost i said six nothing oh so jb you're the only one yes what score did you give us you remember i i think

three two three two in overtime yeah did anybody see two one we should yeah the leafs because they d up now apparently that's all they do so the leaves are slowly turn turning into lou lamorello's new jersey doubles lou's watching this version of the leafs going i like it that's what i'm talking about we don't we don't need three goals. Two's enough. You probably need three goals. It's not a good plan to score two. All right.

Well, let's get into it. We want to start with Sheldon Keefe and his overall thoughts of the game last night. Let's start there, and then we'll just work off that. All right. Man, I thought we did a good job of it. I mean, obviously, it got a little hairy there in the third period with the atmosphere but it was an intense atmosphere right from the start of the game and you know that's the most engaged i've seen fans here here in new jersey in my time in the league um so you can tell they're really

getting excited about this team and the run they've been on. I thought our guys did well. I mean, obviously an excellent first period sets us up for success in the game. And then I thought, you know, we defended really hard all game long. You know, we made one mistake in the third period, ends up in our net. But all game, I thought our guys battled hard,

defended the middle of the ice extremely well, took away the strength of their game. I thought our guys battled hard, defended the middle of the ice extremely well, took away the strength of their game and I thought we were full marks for the win. Yeah, I think he nailed it. It was hard to get to the net for New Jersey and when they did, Matt Murray was

there, made the saves that he was supposed to make, which is a common theme now in the national hockey league don't need you to spin off your head just be there for us and you know what i like about that so two things one is for the new jersey devils that's why a winning streak is so impressive is some nights things just don't go your way and things did not go the devil's way last night like we'll get to that but things did not go their way on the last night. Like, we'll get to that. But things did not go their way.

On the other hand, I like that Sheldon Keefe came out after that game, and he didn't go, well, you know, they had, like, high expected goals in the third period, and, you know, we kind of got lucky to get out of that when we hung on. Like, you're on the road against a great team. It doesn't have to look a certain way. You won. You know, I like going there and get the win and not complain about it. Full marks, that sort of thing. i thought that was a quality post game i didn't get the

feeling like uh you know they they dodged a bullet last night they competed they gutted it out um a lot of different factors that went into it you know uh as far as I'm concerned, the engine continues to be Mitch Marner. The setup goal for Tavares in the slot, the work that he did. I mean, it's just a constant. And yeah, sometimes the rhythm's off and he can turn a puck over maybe on a rare time. But overall, the intelligence and the consistency out of his work ethic and being in an ability to continue to be a dangerous penalty killer, for me, as long as you know and see that Mitch Marner is driving,

Leafs, to me, should be in games. Yeah. You know, I thought the play he made on the goal wasn't just that he like outworked a guy but he read where the play was going to go and then cut off was it siegenthaler or hamilton one of the two of them he just cut them off so didn't have to be bigger and that allows him first touch on the pocket was an unbelievable play they were doing okay i'd say they're doing not okay today i thought yeah and at the we're talking like at the blue line where he made the play even to get it down there like he cut him

off he got it down into the corner wins the battle falling down no look on the stick you know who's enjoying it a lot i think is 91 oh he's like can you get 88 off my line for good he could score 35 40 goals if he's on pace for i think right on pace close to 50 he's already got 13 right now in 20 games or 21 he's like common but give him credit he scored before they made the switch like he was having a good year before they they'll probably play off mitch much like we've seen the first 20 games especially if 34 continues to i I don't know, is the word struggle? Sleepwalk. What is, sleepy?

Is he sleepy out there? Maybe. Oh, I had something on Marner, but go ahead. Go ahead with Matthews. No, just the feel that 34 would probably look for Marner coming back on for a little help because I didn't see too much out of 34 and 88 last night. That was it. It was that Marner,

you look at the ice times for everyone last night and it's like 18, 19 minutes for the top guys all the way across the board. And Marner's 23 minutes. You know, he's the only one Matthews is at 19 minutes. It's, it's clear like who Sheldon is relying on right now as Matthews tries to find whatever it is that he's looking for.

Because, yeah, it's, you know, a couple times. How about this? He has not shot a puck in the net at five on five on his forehand this year. Yeah, I heard them say that last night. 21 games. He doesn't have a goal on his forehand at five on five so it's not good i mean he's a tip in a backhand i think i do have five on five stats that you can pull up i do for the leafs in particular yes like do you have actual minutes

of five on five yes but i need a moment to filter it well yes i'm just watching the game last night obviously and i just i'm not it's almost at the point where i'm not noticing matthews that much yeah what do you know kipper which is insane crazy who leads uh in in minutes on five on five justin hall not a joke yeah justin hall's most on the team uh third is matthews marner is just behind matthews that doesn't seem right does it no it does yeah he's 20 minutes behind him it does on the season you know why no because he's out there doing everything else oh yeah i see what you're saying he's on the pk yeah that's where he's an extra four hard minutes a game or something. Who's producing the most on even strength? Yeah, that's Marner.

So Marner is the best five-on-five player, and yet he's 20 minutes behind Matthews. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah, they're a goal apart in that department, so it's close. Don't you want Matthews? If Marner's your best five-on-five producer, don't you want to push those minutes up five-on-five?

Well, isn't that the thing we've complained about, though, with him overplaying Marner during the regular season? You're the one who's saying this year he can't play 25 minutes or whatever. No, no, no, he can on some nights. So more five-on-five, less shorthanded. Yes. Okay. Yeah, start developing other people on the pk yeah and

stop leaning on him like crazy you're gonna kill the guy he's gonna you're gonna bury him by march or april you know yeah start pulling those minutes off get those five on five up and start getting your five on five game going here four on five but if you're the coach of the team, Kipper, he's on your bench, how the hell do you not send him out? I hear you. He's clearly your best-be-champion. You're trying to win the game. There's how many shifts do the Leafs have where legitimately

nothing happens offensively? Here's five-on-five. And he's the only guy that's really pushing the play on at all strengths so so you're not supposed to win like it's no you're supposed to develop other penalty killers well they have a lot of guys that can do it and and don't use them so much on the penalty kill i'm telling you that's what's that's why he's so far behind matthews is because he's sucking wind on the bench getting ready for his next shift what What they need to do. So if you look at shorthanded ice time per game,

so in terms of forwards, David Kampf has played the most per game and Mitch Marner is next. So he's second most there. Then it's Kerfoot, Kelly Yarncroft, Zach Aston Reese is below a minute a game. They really use four guys. You know, Aston Reese and Engvall also below a minute a game they really use four guys you know aston reese and

engvall also below a minute you need those guys to kill you need those guys to go there like michael bunting can't kill penalties he's killed the least on the entire team he's killed like not at all i think four seconds on the seasons they haven't even given him a look at that the other thing too is you know you can tell how how 88 and 34 are pushing it to the point where like sometimes i watch willie neilander cherry pick boys and it just drives me nuts just drives me nuts yeah last night was his first noticeably bad game i thought you know the islanders game that we were at the other night sammy when you and i were just sitting there he's skating well he skating well, but he's ahead of the play by a lot.

Pop pulled off his stick a couple weird times. Right. He's just yeah, he needs to kind of stay with it. Don't get too excited about the offenses. Stay with the group as we break out as a five-man unit and sometimes he gets a little out of it. Let's pull Kipper's Clipper on Marner defending the middle of the

ice. I mean, they were definitely pushing, but i thought we did a good job of holding the middle um when mernitz made some really nice saves i thought i was a as a group we held the middle pretty well and i won obviously that cost us but um you know we did a good job keeping it tight and trying to make them work around us and one guy that's really noticeable on that was Mark Giordano. Yeah. He is so intelligent when it comes to taking whatever, you know, he has and making the most of it. We know he's not blessed with a ton of speed. We know if he's getting into a foot race, most often than not, he'll lose it. But he will find a way to get back into the fight and reposition himself.

But as far as taking the middle of the ice or having lanes blocked and getting down and... Knows where to stand, as Babs would like to say. Having the perfect position, the perfect down one knee blocked shots. Man, 24 minutes though, guys. Not afraid to get in the way. 24 minutes, less than 48 hours to get ready for a game tomorrow afternoon. We can talk how great he was last night,

but what's that recovery going to be for a guy that's turning 40 soon? But listen, wouldn't you rather have the veteran guy who used to be a top-pairing guy elevating to that as opposed to having to do it with a young guy. Like he knows what it takes to play 25 minutes in a game. He's done it his whole career. He's been a number one guy his whole career. But the body.

Yeah. The body doesn't recover, and it doesn't do the things that it did five, seven years ago. I, listen, I know you're probably right, but I'm fully all in on him playing. Oh, listen, it's third week in november yeah you're set up over the boards again for 25 again tomorrow night or tomorrow afternoon 100 so a couple things that stood out from those from marner and keith to me one is the taking away

the middle of the ice thing you can tell the message went from the coaching staff pre-scout to the players successfully they downloaded the same idea okay middle of the ice and you mentioned that with giordano as well defending that and keeping everyone outside thought that was pretty good um but yeah the the geo is a steadying factor right now particularly when you know mac hollowell was paired up with them at times um i know we're gonna get 12 minutes i know we're gonna get the geo do you want to just weigh in on hollow all quick? Any? Yeah.

Yeah. Tiny. Yeah. He's really little. Like, I mean, it's not everything. I don't, I don't particularly like watching him go back and try to get a puck.

You know, if, if he's looking up ice, he made some nice plays. He's a good skater. Uh, I thought, looking up ice he made some nice plays he's a good skater uh i thought i thought sheldon did a nice job with his 12 minutes yeah how about that great really good skater so i saw some of the like advanced stats and i was like oh boy looks like he had a good night and i watched it he banged the puck up the wall for turnovers four times in that time like he it went well for him

like things broke well but i do not want to see that again um but mark giordano was very good do we want to hear from mark on playing all those minutes absolutely all right let's do that what did the increased workload feel like for you i mean i know you you said you can handle it but like you actually do it yeah no i feel good i feel good it's all about taking care of yourself properly and a couple more shifts every period, and I think I can handle it. He thinks he can handle it.

Hey. Not I can't handle it. And he is until he isn't. How's that? That's exactly right. It makes sense. It's true. We should, listen, we've done 33 minutes.

We haven't talked about the call. We've got to talk about the calls. The chat and YouTube, everybody's yelling at each other about these calls. Okay. All right. All three correct. For the record, good for Gio for putting in the work after the game.

Okay. The calls, Sammy's got all three correct. Overturn, no goals. My take, Sammy's right. Kipper, did they get screwed? I will concur and say, according to the letter of the law, I'm good. But? Change the letter of the law on a few.

That's all. Which one? I'll tell you the one that bothered me the most, just as an objective watcher, is that the kicked in goal. Yeah. It's not kicked at the net. If you intentionally kick a puck and's not kicked at the net. If you, if you intentionally kick a puck

and it goes directly in the net, I'm all day long. If I'm trying to kick it to keep the play alive to a teammate and someone else on the opposition redirects it in the net, that's a good goal.

And that's it. You know, I didn't intentionally try to kick the puck in when it's heading towards you're making a legal play it ended up in the net i'm making an illegal play yeah if in fact it does get redirected by uh an opposition stick get out of the way hey good goal by me and well listen no we're not we're saying the calls are right no but every all three calls. Good call, good call, good call.

But the letter of the law. You've changed every rule for 15 years to drive more offense. Puck over glass. Icing face-offs, pick the sides. Everything is geared towards offense. Now you're going to tell me that you're you're not going to advance that and what's the concern of what's going to happen if you tell guys that if you kick it not at the net and it ends up in the net we're keeping it as a good goal guys are going

to try to kick it off things like it's not happening he kicked it towards the net no he yes in front of the crease he was kicking it towards the goal okay he came towards the goal and everyone gone in if the leafs didn't put it towards the goal. Okay, he kicked it towards the goal. And everyone would have gone in if the Leafs didn't put it in their net. But it's not like they shot it into the net. It took a tiny little... I don't care. It's the right call, and that's the way it should be. You can't have...

He didn't kick it in. Yes, he did. The last thing that touched... And then it went in. Yeah. By him. Pinball, then. No, not by him.

If he kicks it and hits with a stick for sure soccer who gets credit for it i don't know it's an own goal don't talk about soccer no comment brazil just scored a galazo we're on this oh okay we're on to cincinnati we're on to croatia we're not talking about and as far as goaltender contact I think we can all agree that we've seen more contact and no call this season than what we witnessed last night

but no doubt he's impeded in getting where he needs to get to make a save in the blue paint that one to me is not even a debate no man is in the way I'm just saying that it's that one's a coin toss on the official and how he feels he could have easily said you know what they they kind of bumped into each other no call play alive good goal well that there's one in vancouver

last night that was like that was called goalie interference that they overturned. That was one of the worst ones I've ever seen. Awful. Awful call. Garland. Yeah. Yeah. That one was a head scratcher. I mean, what are we doing? Did you see his reaction? Awesome.

Good job. Good job. Good job. Good job. There's nothing worse than that. He seems like a real piece of work. I don't care. But don't, like, and you can't, that was, to me,

is the most obvious goaltender interference style of one. The first one. Dying away in the blue paint trying to get where he's trying to get. Right, exactly. Right where he pushes his skate to, where he could make the save with a puck, his skate was impeded. I didn't see a ton of contact on the skates.

It's a kiss. Ah, more than a kiss. Here's the sound of the two skates Making contact But if his skate Still though If his skate wasn't there He makes that save

He makes that save But his skate isn't there Yeah maybe But listen I'm going to argue about it i'll go i'll go to union hey don't go in the blue paint hey buddy just don't go in the blue paint yeah great and then there's really not much to be able to knock a goalie over and we can't get in his net what do you think about the uh the molson shower, yeah. The beers came raining down. Yeah.

What's to think? Is anyone here going to be like, it was awesome? Okay. I think it was a little overplayed by the Leafs. Just a tad on how dangerous it is. I actually thought they'd go to the room and was like, come on. Listen, I got to say. No one's ever died with a Coke thrown at them.

Toronto people listening to this show, we cannot throw beer from our glass houses because I particularly remember in 2015 when Russell Martin got a bad call against him at the Rogers Center. Beers rained from the crowd. But I didn't enjoy the hunt to find the dude. No, no.

That was another situation. That was just the wild card game the following year. We whipped beers. All I thought of after the game was Sheldon grabbing Mitch Marner and going to a cop and say look at him, look at him he got hit in the tire iron

it was a tire iron hit him right in the mind let's listen to Keefe's thoughts on the beers coming down because I thought it was actually hilarious take cover thoughts on the beers coming down because I thought it was actually hilarious. Take cover. That's really all you can do.

You know, I've been through that experience a few other times. Maybe not to that degree but that one felt like it could get dangerous so that's why we just decided to leave the bench for a little bit there. A few other times. How many times has this guy had beers thrown at his head?

This is a guy who, he was in Pembroke for a long time. Not saying just saying. The Lumber Kings. We have a lot of listeners in that area. I went to a hockey tournament there with my dad for the MNR. We had an absolute blast. But all you need to know about that rink, I think they're the Lumber Kings, right?

That's the name of the team, Pembroke? Yep. The benches in that rink are on opposite sides. Safety first. That's all you need to know about that rink. Yeah. So, I'll be seeing some things in there. We knock out the Quebec Nordiques, right?

And it's just not, we just didn't knock them out of the playoffs. It's over. You knocked them out of the league? We knocked them out of the playoffs like it's over the league we knocked them out of the league you knocked them to colorado relegated so we not it's their last game in history and you know we're celebrating uh after the whistle and we're all happy and brian leach looks at me and goes did you just throw up and i'm like no said, I got pelted by mustard packages. Oh, no. When they came off the ice.

And I was covered. And my face was covered. And I just, I had a small scratch because of the corner, you know, that aluminum type, that sharp little corner. And I'm like, no, I didn't throw up. You're the mustard tiger just getting pelted. That's great. But I think they survived.

They're okay. Everyone's okay. Mitch was pissed. Pissed. Do we have him? Yeah, let's listen to Mitch. Well, I mean, it's full beers and it's dangerous. We're not looking for that.

We're not seeing it coming. Dodged a couple. I mean, could have got really dangerous again at the end. Rass almost took one in the head. It's a dangerous thing. So, I mean, I don't know what it's our fault. But, I mean, it's not like they're throwing it just for joy. They're throwing it to try and hit us.

So, it's the first I've ever seen. It's insane. I don't know that they're trying to hit guys. You're just expressing displeasure here. Are you crazy? Hammered jersey guy on the thanksgiving west day in the rain no he's looking he's looking for his flesh to me i just heard it he's trying to chuck the gabagool at him who who spends 22 bucks on a full beer and then chucks it no way they're 22 in

jersey they're probably like 11 are you nuts they're 22 everywhere yeah that's a small mortgage now to get a beer yeah bernieny knows. He bought me one on Saturday. Whatever day we were there. Yeah. You know, if you're at the Prudential Center, though, they're like, throw them. Throw them. You need a refill. Yeah.

All right. Let's take a break. Oh, my goodness. We blew right by the third base stop sign. We did. All right. We got Gary Gally coming up after the break. We'll talk Leafs.

We'll talk Ottawa senators. Are they still in the basement? They're still. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. Not what the summer. Not how Pierre Dorian,

Dorian drew up Pierre Dorian's year. Not the summer of Pierre. Okay. We'll get into that more. And Billy Guerin in the second hour. Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne. We are Real Kipper and Bourne.

Stay tuned. This is Real Kipper and Bourne on Sportsnet 590, The Van. Yes, we are. As promised, one of our favorites, Gary Gally, Sportsnet Hockey Night in Canada, joins us now. Gary, how are you, pal? Doing great. How are you guys? We're good. You know, a little bit somber today

with the passing of Boreas Salming. Now we're roughly the same age. So what do you remember about Salming and your initial thoughts? I remember when Salming and Hammestrom came over and all the talk about that and joining the Maple Leafs and, you know, obviously, you know, the two of them having a major impact on, you know, Europeans coming over and not only playing

in the National Hockey League, but, you know, Borea, you know europeans coming over and not only um playing in the national hockey league but you know uh you know boria you know made a statement he wasn't just a any old player he came over and uh man he became um a household name in a very big hockey market in a very country where hockey is a religion and there wasn't any team that he played against that didn't respect him respect him as a player as a person and you know the way he held himself in regard on and off the ice and you know i got it you know to see him at the um at the hall of fame weekend and to see the joy that he brought people to give them the ability to lay eyes on him because I'm sure it was not an easy trek for him and his family

to come down and the amount of energy it would have taken for that to happen and for him to do that, for people to be able to see him and for his ex-teammates and stuff speaks volumes for him and his family. And certainly my condolences to, to, to his family and the people that surround around him and how special he was.

That's well said Gary, the you know, watching the Leafs last night, I'm sure Boria would have been proud of the defensive effort. The team put forward, I thought, you know, this season has been a bit of a change in philosophy,

you know, to, to more commitment on that side of the puck and sorting through some of the numbers, watching the games. They're a pretty good defensive team. What do you make of a Toronto Maple Leafs team that seems to have defense as a strength rather than their offense? The crazy thing is when you look at some of the teams over the history,

I can go way, way back, but i'll try to stay as recent as i can maybe tampa maybe them i know there's detroit and there's dallas with bowman and hitchcock that convinced the star players that they had to sacrifice some of their personal goals and points to be more of a more responsible so that they could win in the playoffs and they went on to win stanley cubs but look at tampa had Cups. But look at Tampa had to do it. Colorado had to do it. You can run and gun. You can try to outpoint your opponent production-wise.

But as we know, when the playoffs hit, the game changes considerably, and you have to know how to play in the pigpen with the teams that can play in those one goal games those tight checking games you got to be comfortable playing with a one goal lead you got to be comfortable playing behind by a goal you have to be comfortable you can't open yourself up uh stay in the game keep yourself in the game um uh you know coming off the ice uh late in the game with a one goal lead and you haven't accomplished anything but you haven't given anything,

that's a win. That's a win. And you have to have the ability to feel that and know how important that is. I think the Leafs are learning, and every time they go through these tribulations along the way, I think that they're understanding more the value of what they need to do. And any time you lose the amount of defensemen they've lost,

you have to collectively as a team make up for that. You're not going to replace that with one or two players. You have to collectively do it as a complete team on the ice. And I think that you can see that their effort is to try to do that. Gary, I think what you're talking about is puck management and managing a clock, managing the score, all of that. And we're seeing so many swings now in the NHL. We're seeing losing streaks.

We're seeing winning streaks. We're seeing two goals disappear awfully quickly more than ever before is this just because the kids are more are fearless to mistakes unlike us who knew that one would put us on the bench or in this in the press box well you know you make a good point clock and score are extremely important as a player um you have to recognize the score of the game and what time in the game is it and and those are all risk versus reward things right like are you the team that's leading how much are you leading um are you the team that's losing how much time's left in a period how much time's left in a game uh you know are you extending your shifts too long like you have

to understand uh those are those are they seem like things, but there are things that you have to have knowledge of when you're playing in a game, when to take your risk versus reward. And if you need to take risk or you don't take the risk, and as a player, you're comfortable in your skin to not take the risk. You know, in speaking to a lot of people, when you look at teams that are into trouble and teams that lose leads, you know, and to be honest with you, is that if you can not lose more than two games in a row,

and it's really important. There are a lot of teams that I remember discussing this back when I played that after you lost two in a row, there was a lot of push from the team and the veteran players that that stops right here. We do not let it go by two. I was saying to somebody this morning that the Montreal Canadiens have done that. They have not lost more than two in a row.

And when you look at a team like Buffalo who had that long losing streak, they lost it all. All the good things they did, they lost in eight games because they couldn't stop the bleeding. and you have to stop the bleeding and for most players everyone you know the sexy part of the game is the offense when you have the puck on your stick and everybody wants the puck on their stick but the truth of the matter is you don't have the puck on your stick that often the star players have it a minute or less the great ones maybe a little more the mcdavid's of that nature but the you know

so for the average player in the national hockey league which is not just average i mean it's playing the national hockey league is you know is very incredible in itself but you have to know how to play without the puck and you also have to know when you have nothing don't try to make something and that's where the teams struggle that's where the senators that's where something. And that's where the teams struggle. That's where the Senators, that's where the Savers, that's where some of the teams that have been struggling, when you don't have anything, all of a sudden you create a huge turnover in the middle of the ice instead of putting the puck in a safe place, putting the puck somewhere where, yeah, it's not what you want to do.

You want to try to make something happen, but there is nothing going on there. Just let it go and we'll look to tell another day. Instead, you try to make a play turns over transition it's in your net uh maybe the goalie should have had it who knows but why put yourself in those positions the good teams don't do it well and something we haven't talked about so far in the show is you know feeds into that defensive thing is goaltending and making the life of matt murray or whoever's in that a lot easier you know Murray looks pretty good what do you make of I don't want to say his surprising start because the Leafs bet on it happening but I

don't think a lot of other people did do you think this is something that can be lasting or where are you on Murray's start so far well until he gets through a prolonged period of time without getting hurt I'm always a bit cautious on that Murray. And that's where I am. Is he a quality goaltender when he's on his game? Well, it's hard to argue that. Of course he is. You know, guys won Stanley Cups. He's been in the most highly intense parts and anxiety parts of the game you could be

in. So, yes, the issue with Matt Murray has been his injuries and how long he's out with his injuries. So we've already had one of that already. And now he's back and he looks pretty good. And the Leafs are playing really well. So, yeah, my, you know, I would say if he can stay healthy the rest of the way and be there for the Maple Leafs when they need him,

I think that would go a long way for everyone just having a little more exhale. Like, okay, this guy can get through an extended period of time but for the last while he hasn't been able to do that so and i'm not wishing anything ill on anybody i'm just saying that's been the track record gary as far as that blue line is concerned we we know it's decimated with the likes of muzzin riley brody gone A lot of people aren't expecting Jordy Ben to play tomorrow afternoon against Minnesota. And yet another opportunity for Rasmus Sandin. And just, you know, your experience of being on a blue line and knowing a guy's had multiple opportunities

and yet another one. What would be going through his mind right now? They say he's a confident kid, but, I mean, would he realize that you only get so many opportunities before people have a different opinion of you? I think that opportunity comes in the strangest ways at the strangest times. And, you know, because nobody as a player ever wishes their teammates get hurt. You know, I mean, but sometimes it lends opportunity to you

to be able to step up and prove yourself when the team needs you the most. Now, is he capable of not putting too much pressure on himself to be really good and stay within himself and play his game and not get caught into trying to do too much with the extended ice time he's going to get. That's the trick of the tale there, because oftentimes when you lose players of value like the Leafs have lost,

maybe Sandin is incapable of stepping into Morgan Riley's shoes. But at the same time, he can cover some of his minutes. And for Shelling Keith, he just wants those minutes covered and covered responsibly yeah we're not going to get maybe some of the other things that we would get from the other players but you know don't hurt us by trying to do too much and that's going to be kind of the mantra I think is stay in your game play your game play it longer and more consistent and things will happen I mean I look at guys like Eric Brandstrom. I look at guys like Victor Mete.

I look at guys of that posture and size that teams have given multiple opportunities to, to grab a hold and get going and haven't never been able to get that golden ticket where you feel like you've made it, right? And Sandin kind of falls into that kind of mold where the expectation is high. Now he needs to take it and run with it consistently over time, not in a roller coaster where he has a few good games and everyone says, wow, here it is, and then he has a couple of bad games. I think if he can really control himself and just play his game

with the extended minutes, I think it would go a long way for the organization and how they look at him. I think that would be really important. Yeah, you just have to be so good when you're a smaller d-man like so exceptional in so many things it is a real challenge i get that um you know on the other end of the puck you know things are going really well for the toronto maple leafs in general so there's not a ton of criticism here but austin matthews slow start is worthy of attention at this point you know last night um chris cuthbert mentioned that austin matthews slow start is worthy of attention at this point you know last night um chris cuthbert mentioned that austin matthews doesn't have a goal shot on his forehand

at even strength this year 21 games you know point per game player good for a lot of guys not the guy who just won the heart and ted lindsey what do you see out of austin matthews so far you know i i would say that uh certainly um you know he hasn't had any kind of run that would make you believe that, oh, my God, he's got it back and he's firing all cylinders. But, you know, I do, I look at him and I don't think he's playing bad. I look at him and he's engaged in the game. He goes into the scoring areas. You know, he's still using his teammates. Sometimes when a scorer like that's not scoring,

he tends to get a little more selfish trying to make things happen. I don't see him doing that at all. So, you know, I don't see a lot of change. He's just not as productive as everyone would like him to be, and he's not scoring at a clip that everyone would like him to be. But, you know, it doesn't always roll along, you know, and maybe at some point it's going to all click in and he's going to get on fire. Will he be as opportunistic as he was last year?

Maybe not. Goalies and teams start to, you know, it's like I go back to, like Paul Coffey was a guy that was insanely good. When he picked the puck up at his end, he had the ability. He looked like he wasn't even skating and he was moving faster than you. But the one thing that if you watched him and you watched it over time, and Pat Quinn was great at this when we played him in the playoffs back in the early 80s, was he liked to enter the zone on one side predominantly.

90% of the time, he would enter the in the zone always on one side, towards his backhand. So we did our damnedest throughout the series to take that side away and make him go in on his forehand where he didn't like it. And I think for a lot of Austin Matthews, you know, last night's game especially, there were times when the player was just mimicking Austin Matthews. They were saying, hey, you can go to anyone else, but you're not coming to him. This isn't the guy you're coming to. And I think that's happening a lot more. And that just is the respect value.

And it shows you that the other guys on the ice are going to have to make teams more aware that if they're going to really present themselves that strongly on one guy, that we're going to take advantage of it. But I'm not concerned at how he's playing. I really am not. I think he's playing. I really am not. I think he's playing like a good team player plays. Would you like him to be more productive? Yes.

Would you like to see him scoring more? Well, for sure. But I think it will come eventually, and I think he has to, you know, fight through this, and all this is going to help him get better as he moves along in the playoffs when it gets a lot tighter and a lot harder to score goals. One more for me before we let you go, Gary, and that's the Ottawa Senators

and double digits out of a playoff spot, and it is American Thanksgiving. And while it's debatable on how much we anticipated them fighting for a playoff spot, maybe February or March, we didn't see tied for dead last in the league with Anaheim. So how surprised are you? Actually, I am.

I am surprised. Did I think they were going to be in a playoff spot right now? No, I wasn't sure they'd be in a playoff spot, but I thought they would be sitting you know three four points uh you know maybe maybe two three four points out of the playoffs and uh they'd have more wins and and they wouldn't be losing games like they're losing games i don't know if i say that right but you know how you lose a game um you can have you can play well and lose and the one thing that was very clear from the Ottawa Senators when they started the season was they wanted to be playing meaningful games

in March and April, and they wanted to clean up some of the defensive zone and defensive mistakes that they've made in the past. They needed better goaltending. They needed more secure and stronger goaltending. So these are all things that they talked about, but it just hasn't manifested. Their goaltending has just been okay. Their defensive zone structure and their execution of their defensive zone

systems is one of two things. Either they don't understand it or they're not getting the proper information. And that comes down to whether it's the coaching or whether it's the players. Now, you know, I've heard Pierre Dorian say it's not the coach, not the coach, and stop talking about the coach. And I understand that.

Sooner or later, a chip falls. And the players love DJ Smith. I think he's a good coach. I think the players believe in him. But if you're not winning and this is going on, someone takes the fall for this. Someone has to. You can't keep going on the same road where the expectations are moving ahead

except the team isn't catching up to them. I think they're getting some good play to some guys, but the one area that they didn't address, and they brought a 20-year-old defenseman into the fold, and Jake Sanderson's been fantastic. And I think it's – imagine if this kid came in and had, you know, any kind of issues getting his feet wet in the National Hockey League, which would be more than understandable.

But he's come in and played like a vet, and that's made it even better for them with the loss of Zub and Shabbat. But Shabbat hasn't played particularly well, and that's hurt them even better for them with the loss of Zub and Shabbat but Shabbat hasn't played particularly well uh and that's hurt them a little bit you know and and it's the understanding that they really haven't helped their blue line a lot and and that doesn't help to insulate their goaltending at all their goaltending has not been it's not been as bad as it was in the last years but it hasn't stepped up to where I think they were hoping it would be. Certainly losing Norris is an issue, but you look at the Bruins.

They lost Marchand. They lost McAvoy. They lost three or four guys out in the first five games, and they just find ways to win. They know how to win. For the Ottawa Senators, they just have trouble figuring out how to win, and unfortunately, they've got a lot of young players that the things I mentioned earlier, what to do when you have nothing, how to play, time and clock and things like that. I think they haven't figured out a lot of that. Gary, always a pleasure having you on our show, man.

We really appreciate your time. Awesome, guys. I'm going to get over to my three American kids and have turkey at their house. So this is good for me that's awesome enjoy thanks gary all right guys take care hockey night in canada's gary galley um a couple uh quick ones before we go to break here uh rasmus sandin over 22 minutes clearly he's gonna get that role with Morgan Riley out for the most part

I didn't have any issues with him at all except for the one Hamilton goal where he just decided to read a play that only didn't happen and he left Hamilton unattended in front. It's a really good point we always talk about

D-man how often if you don't notice them it was a good game and when you play 22 minutes and you're not noticeable it's pretty good i do think when you're smaller you have to anticipate plays ahead of everyone else and kind of cut them off and get there early and that's what he's trying to do on the goal against but it's just a bad guess he doesn't even like shoulder check or look anyway a couple practice updates from minnesota today if you're interested in that kind of thing um i'm just pulling it up here apparently connor timmons is not going to play tomorrow night keith says that he just got there wants to make sure that he doesn't play so your bottom pair guess what your bottom pair is gonna be tomorrow victor metasian and matt met a hollow well yeah uh geordie ben ir week to week yeah yes it's and again

sometimes in life you get what you pay for geordie ben uh has really come in and and been a breath of fresh air for this blue line really good no question about it yeah but how many consecutive games can he play can he stay healthy it's a line from liar liar simmons is old right it's just that is old right yeah he's being held together with like popsicle sticks right now i don't know yeah that's too bad because he really was like i don't know he was like gritty he was like the charismatic leader everyone loved. He's like, yeah, this guy's perfect for them. And another note from practice, Matt Murray starts Friday in Minnesota, which is great. Another start for him.

The plan is for Eric Shulgren to start in Pittsburgh on Saturday, but that's not 100% yet. With a matinee start tomorrow, it's not the usual back-to-back. The travel is significant, apparently. If Matt Murray's going, just roll if matt murray's going just look at he's going with it he's going i do think uh i do think that's the right call what you're talking about i think the penguins have seen a very strange array of goaltenders in the leafs it's been shalgren and casca suo and like yeah i'll throw a couple starters at him will you also one note

nick robertson i guess will come out of the lineup and wayne simmons will go in to obviously go up against uh very excited can't wait to win the fans over ryan reeves oh great great sammy was saying he doesn't think that Simmons will do a deal with Reeves. He doesn't think that's a thing. Why would you do a deal? No, he doesn't think that he'll fight him or that he'll. Listen. That's out of his weight class.

Ryan Reeves is coming out and he's running around. You're right. I didn't think of that. He's coming out with a bib on his jersey. Much like a lot of Americans right now are looking at their Christmas or their Thanksgiving dinner. Right? He sees a little cranberry sauce on all the Leafs. Eat them up.

Why wouldn't you? I would. There's some people right now listening to our show just disgustingly. Why wouldn't you? If you're Ryan Reeves, you're going into a game against a team like Toronto where you've got the red carpet to go run and talk and intimidate anybody you want. And what, Giordano's coming after me? I hope it's Wayne Simmons before I see Giordano's coming after me? I hope it's Wayne Simmons

before I see Giordano go in there. Yeah. Where's Clifford? I mean, honestly, it's like... Here's a question for you, though. You should have kept Douglas. Reeves gets just a green light to go out there

and do anything he wants tomorrow. You okay with that? Yeah. Listen, it's not going to matter. So I had an argument. What do you mean it's not going to matter? It's not going to matter.

Even if you have Simmons. Listen, Wayne's got to find a way to kind of slow him down a little bit. He's not going to. Well, then what's the point of putting him in then? We should break, by the way. We've got to get to Karen. Right. All right. We'll take a quick break. We'll pick this up after the break. Well, then what's the point of putting him in then? We should break, by the way. We've got to get to Garen. Right. All right.

We'll take a quick break. We'll pick this up after the break. Yes, sir. Okay. Billy Garen, general manager of Minnesota Wild. After the break, you're watching and listening to Real Kipper and Born. We're back after this. This is Real Kipper and Born on Sportsnet 590 The Van.

Leeds in Minnesota. Tomorrow afternoon at 2. And a scheduling note, we will not be on the air tomorrow until post-game on... I don't know. What's it called? Leafs Talk on YouTube. Leafs Talk on YouTube. I don't know. So's it called? Leafstalk on YouTube. Leafstalk on YouTube. I don't know.

So it's not Real Kipper and Born on YouTube tomorrow after the game? We're going to put it in our podcast feed. It's Leafstalk featuring Real Kipper and Born. The artist formerly known as Real Kipper and Born on Leafstalk. It's Real Kipper and Born featuring Leafstalk. I'm not sure if I want to go on Leaftalk.

Yeah. Pretty generic. I'm a real kipper and born guy that's a generic name so they can just fire and replace us at work that's the game plan all right we wait to catch up to uh billy aaron he's coming probably got like cranberry stain on his shirt by now you think at 4 17 is prime u.s drinking time is it not i mean you're right in the middle of a thigh right now no you've eaten and i feel like you're into like the and you can't you're too full to have like a beer so you're under like a bourbon or something is that uh that what is it that's that sleepy part of the turkey? Tryptophan. Is that kicked in yet? Is it kicked in on Billy Guerin?

Are you turquied out? We're sorry if we interrupted your Thanksgiving. And happy Thanksgiving, by the way. Oh, thanks. I appreciate it. Yeah, I'm turquied out. We had a very, very early meal. My son flew out to see his girlfriend, and my daughter's working tonight. So we had to eat at 1 o'clock, and I'm turkeyed out. We had a very, very early meal. My son flew out to see his girlfriend, and my daughter's working tonight.

So we had to eat at 1 o'clock, and I'm done. I'm done. Does Thanksgiving feel a lot better with a 6-1 win against Winnipeg? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was, yeah, just one of those things. It's not really a break in the season, but it's a holiday. Not that a loss is going to entirely ruin it, but the turkey definitely tastes better with two points in your pocket.

That's great. So you guys are starting to roll a little bit here. You beat Carolina. You beat Winnipeg. How would you assess where the Wild are at this season? I know you guys just made a move to acquire Reeves. It seems like you guys are in a pretty good spot here. What's your take on things so far?

Yeah, it's been a very different year, you know, if you're comparing to last year. We've been inconsistent. You know, I think our defensive play you know or has been really strong uh our ability to score goals five on five hasn't been as strong as last year but um you know i the thing for me is that we're still uh inconsistent in in playing to our identity and you know and that's you know playing playing up tempo high pace high compete um and and and being aggressive and for some reason we've been inconsistent that was part

of the reeves move um you know just to get another guy with with a lot of energy in his game and um you know if he can get to hits he's really effective but you know he's a bigger body and and you know we we needed that so the energy that he's going to hits, he's really effective, but he's a bigger body, and we needed that. So the energy that he's going to supply I think will help us get to a more consistent level with our identity. Just the way it all went down, my understanding was about a week ago Ryan Reeves went to the New York Rangers, asked to get traded, and there was some thought, Billy, that the Rangers were ready to put him on waivers.

So just your decision to give up a fifth for him and maybe not wait to see if, in fact, that would have happened, but where was your sense on why you needed to pull the trigger the other day? Well, I mean, hey, listen, we all think about the future um draft picks are incredibly valuable uh but we also think about the now and you know what i i just feel that our team needed a little a little jolt and like i said with with revo's personality his his energy you know what he brings to a locker room uh what he brings on the ice, you know, can really lift the team. And, you know what, I thought, you know, for right now,

it was worth a draft pick two years out. And, I mean, you never know. We could end up recouping that draft pick somewhere along the line. But, you know, I think it was important to think about the players now and and try to help them this year you know if teams only go as far as goaltending and their stars go you know that there were some people pre-season picking Kirill Kaprizov as sort of a dark horse heart candidate guy a lot of love around the league how has his season gone so far for the Minnesota Wild you know Kirill's been

great um you know i don't i don't know if he's scoring at the rate that he was last year but he's he's been pretty consistent and um you know he's having a good year and uh you know the thing i love about carill is that he plays hard every night yeah you know he's he's one of these superstars that is not afraid to get his nose dirty. You know, last night he had a, he had a couple of points, but he was also like, you know, he gets in on the four check. He finishes checks. I know he finished a couple of guys, you know, real hard. He goes in, he'll get, he'll go to the puck first.

He's not afraid to get hit and you know, he goes to the ugly areas. So I really like where Kirill's game is right now. I mean, as a GM or coaches, he always wants more production. But he produces at a really high rate for us. So we're lucky to have him. Bill, just in terms of now the squeeze on many teams with a salary cap, and we know what's happened for obvious reasons the last few years but the decision with Parise and Ryan Suter has left you I think with dead cap

space money of about 40 million dollars if I'm not mistaken and just that usually comes with teams that are just totally ready to kind of rebuild and get higher picks and just wait for a few years. But we don't get that sense out of your hockey club. So, I mean, how has it been knowing that you've got such a significant number of dead space to work with? You know what? I mean, I'll be honest with you. Some days it's tough and you're like, man, what could we do with that extra cap space? But you know what those are you gotta live by the decisions you make and i'd do it

again um and i just think the way the direction our organization's gone since then is has been in a positive one um you know uh no disrespect to those players or anything like that, but we needed to do it to move forward. And, you know, even though we have, you know, the dead cap space, I think it's given a lot of other players here the ability to, you know, to play in different positions, to play more, to, you know, assume leadership positions, all sorts of things like that. So, but, you know, we're positions, all sorts of things like that. So, but, you know, we're not using that as an excuse either.

The expectation level here is, you know, grown each and every year. We still expect the guys to win. And, you know, that's just the way we do it. I don't care what our dead cap space is. We're a good enough team to win every night, and that's what we expect. You know, Bill, one thing that strikes me is, you know, in our very, very brief overlap at an Islanders camp a while ago and watching your career, seeing you acquire Reeves and knowing you have Marc-Andre Fleury,

like I'm struck by personality as a priority with you. Like knowing that it's important to have these guys in the room that can pick you up and give you that energy and just provide something that isn't the same old every single day. Do you see that? Like in your, when you've won a Stanley cup,

do you, do you feel like personality is an important element of having success? I do. I mean, that, and that's just my personal opinion. I really do. Obviously,

you know, the most important thing is, is the way you play, but it is such a long year. You guys know this. It's such a long year. It's such a grind, like to go in and just do that same thing every single day, you know, at points in time in the season, it gets, it does get tedious and you need, you need character on your team, but you need characters. And those are the guys that are going to get you through the dog days those are the guys that you're going to look to when when things are tight and there's pressure they can loosen the room up or they can they can just make sure that

the guys are relaxed and focused um so yeah i am a big believer in that. I mean, you know, all the good teams that I was on, and I'm sure you guys were the same way, you had some characters and you had some life in the room and you had guys that weren't afraid to, you know, be themselves. And that's what I really preach that to, and be yourself. Like, be who you are. And that's why we get a guy like Reeves or flurry, you know,

Marcus, you know, Dumba, all these guys, Zuccarello that have these great personalities. And, you know, I want them to be who they are. The safer bet is that those type of guys are like pluggers and,

you know, on, on your bottom six. And you just mentioned Mark andre flurry who's one of the best in history and a future hall of famer here and he did this one um promo where they loaded up the the dressing room with flowers and and i think it's one of the best and i urge anyone who's watching or listening to go find it because it's hilarious and he's awesome in it. And I'm just wondering if you got stuck with the floral bill on that one. Yeah. Well, it's actually funny because the guy who makes the commercials, a guy named John King,

who's helped us with that kind of campaign. It's not weird, wild. It's wild. His wife, I believe, works at a flower shop and that's where we got them all. You know, funny how that works out. So, but yeah, I tell you what, the whole, the whole sequence of those commercials to me, you know, Felino did one this year, you know, cause they call him moose where he's in a lake and you gotta, you just gotta look it up there. I think they're hilarious. And you know what?

It's kind of been something that was important to me, and that was allowing, you know what, breaking the mold of the old Minnesota Wild and letting these guys kind of, letting their personalities shine through, letting them have a lot of fun. I mean, you got to do that stuff because I really think it's part of the life. It's part of living the life of an NHLer to be able to do that stuff.

And I think it brings a lot to our market, too. Do you remember when we played, we had those ESPN ones? Did you ever do any of those? Those were great. Those were great. I did one with Kenny Danico and we were playing chess on the ice and I moved and I moved my, or maybe it was me and Randy McKay. I forget me and Dan or Randy McKay was in it too. And I moved my, my,

my piece. And I said, check. And right when I said, check, I think it was Kenny came over and just drilled me like right off, right off the stool. But those were, those were great. And I know you guys with the Rangers had a bunch of good ones. Ricky had one with the, with the, I think the plexiglass in front of the net where, you know, I mean, those are classic. I had one where they gave me this really soft rabbit a live rabbit and i'm holding it in the middle of the rink and i i remember my line

it was like uh hockey people think hockey players are big mean thugs but we're actually very civilized people take this little guy for instance for instance. And my line was, how many of you know the best way to serve him is in a pruned cognac sauce? What do you think? It was pretty good. Not bad. I'm going to look that one up and try getting away with it today. Well, it's funny because I was actually thinking

before my first exhibition game at that Islanders camp, you came in and told the room it was a two-beer mandatory that night. We were all going to go to the bar and everyone had to have a minimum of two beers. I wonder, is that still an element of the NHL these days? Is your team still able to get out? Yeah, we make it a point to make sure that the guys have time to unwind a little bit. We stay over.

You know how it is after a game. You're all wound up. You're not going to sleep. So if we're going to lose time going back east, if, like, we're in the West Coast, we're going to go home, we'll stay overnight. And, you know what? I think it just gives the guys a chance to be together

and go have a couple beers. And I think it really does create camaraderie and chemistry. And, yeah, back at that camp, Barney, that was, I mean, that was fun. And that was, you know what, I wanted to just, you know what, incorporate everybody. You know what, there was no division. I didn't want a division between the old guys and the young guys or, you know, guys on tryouts and signed guys.

No, we're all here at the same camp. Let's go out and have a few beers together. And we're going to, you know, who knows where the night will take us, but we'll talk and we'll get to know each other. And, hey, you have your two beers and leave or don't have any and leave or whatever, but you got to show up. It's a matinee game tomorrow. Can you tell Reeves to kind of take it easy and not worry about impressing

the crowd against the smaller blue line of the toronto maple leafs i can tell him but i think you know this guy he won't listen to me well listen we appreciate uh your your your precious time on thanksgiving day uh thanks for doing this bill absolutely guys great catching up and uh we'll see you down the road thanks bill i appreciate it bill garen general manager of the minnesota wild and uh yeah a team that's hanging around and think about this like if i'm not mistaken they're at about 14 million dollars between parise and uh yeah and ryan suiter of dead money meaning that their salary cap this year is, I don't know, 60?

Yeah, 67 or whatever it is. Yeah. 57 million. You know, so obviously that's bad, and obviously they know that. But I get the idea of being like, we need to move on from this team that hasn't had success. It is not working,

and to continue to run our heads into this brick wall you know makes no sense and giving some new guys some opportunity so this is exactly how i feel about the vancouver canucks like go ahead and let your goaltending get hot and turn it around and go finish with 87 points and pick 14th and then do it again next year what's the point like at least get some young guys in give them opportunity move on to a new core let some new voices grow in the room i get the idea of just saying we know it's not good for us you know it hurts but we need to turn the page on this old thing from the minnesota mile i get it he also said something in that

interview with you guys when you were when you brought up the the advertising right when they're talking about the the flurry thing and then he's like you know we're trying to get away from being the old minnesota wild and that stuck out to me right where it's just like they were the most boring team in the league legitimately the team i want to think the least about if i was trying to come up with an anecdote and have it be the most boring team it would always be the minnesota wild or the arizona coyotes those would be the two teams i would say and it's just i think they really want to be a little bit more exciting so well i i can appreciate that that that philosophy yep i would have gotten rid of parise and i would have kept ryan suiter yeah i wonder that guy's playing 22 minutes a night for the Dallas Stars, and they would have been a better team.

Now, I don't know what's going on off the ice and whether or not they thought he was a clubhouse lawyer, but 22 minutes still out of Ryan Suter could only have helped, in my opinion, the Minnesota Wild. I get that. So how long is their cap screwed for is it two more i think it's two more years that you got to carry uh those salaries and then i think they they wash is to this is the year where it's the worst if i'm not mistaken i think it's over seven

million for ryan suiter on the books this year yeah i mean i can pull this up but yeah it definitely it changes as it goes on but i think this year in particular they take it on the chin or maybe it even gets worse after this i don't know dead money a lot of dead money for them to deal with okay yeah it's a long time away. Yeah. Until then, what is it? It's $12.743.588 million for the next three years. Wow. Actually, sorry, it's $12,743,000 this year, and then it's $14,743,000. Oh, it goes up.

So the two years after that, then it drops down to $1.6666. So we have three tough years here. Three years is a long time. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, bud. Oh, my God. Think about what your Leafs will look like three years from now. Kipper, I just want to think about what they're going to do

getting through this game against Reeves. I would love. What would you pay to know what the Leafs roster would look like in 2026? Nothing, because I don't like to think forward to that. I would pay ungodly sums to know. I'm fascinated to know what that's roster would look like in 2026. Nothing, because I don't like to think forward to that. I would pay ungodly sums to know. I'm fascinated to know what that's going to look like. You just want to be Biff from Back to the Future so you can make money, protect it.

You want the all-in-one act. I've got no morals. I would gamble like hell on that. My column came out today in the Toronto Star. I focused a little bit on that, on altering the roster a little bit. We know that Timmons is on his way, won't play tomorrow. But throughout some suggestions on some D help.

Okay. You think it's going to start clearing up a little bit more on guys that are available? I had about five names in there. So I haven't seen it yet but i do think this is some teams fall out of playoff contention they're interesting names the only ones that are like big names though would be like dumb on the wild they're like at home on nashville but like those don't seem likely so who else did you have in the mix skippers potential well the first one that i said in a perfect world,

and I think we did talk about this. I'm done with Chikrin, by the way. I've moved on. Chikrin's in there. Yeah, he's in there. I've moved on, though, personally. Or onto Croatia. The one that I think would be the most logical

in terms of Kyle's style is Carlson. Eric Carlson. Yes. He's got a lot of money for a lot of years. He doesn't defend a lick. But could you get San Jose to pick up 50% of it? If I'm not mistaken, he's got a big nut. Yeah, it's a big nut.

It's a big nut. It's a big nut to carry. I think it's the term for me. It's like four or five years. Four or five years are equal. And I do mention that in my article, that the obstacles are his age and the wear and tear. Yeah.

And I don't even think that the board or Brendan Shanahan would green light it, even if Kyle came up with the assets to get him. Really? For me, I just don't think he's what they need and I'm not dubious. $50 million for a guy that's... They made that off us at the share club on Saturday night.

I think they can afford $50 million. The tequila bottle was... I don't think that should be part of the equation i don't think it's something they should do but like if they wanted to do it i think they would give them the 50 million bucks i just can't imagine being like the solution to the leafs problems here okay so i can't imagine the solution is looking at these last five or six leafs teams and being like what if we added a guy who can score and doesn't defend? That would blow people's mind. However, I do look at this Leafs team and

say, boy, PP1 with Eric Carlson? Scary. That really changes things. I mean, really, they're instantly the best power play in the league. One name that I threw out was Fabro. 24 years old,

Nashville, right-handed shot. Dante. Dante. Okay. Yeah. That David Poyle is open to moving a defenseman. That's the name that I had heard. I like that name.

17th overall pick, what, four years ago maybe? Yeah. Five years ago. Okay. Just looking this up here don't do fabbro uh again that is that that to me that to me has a feel of uh they would want nize on that one because i'm giving you a 24 year old that still got tremendous upside and can play large minutes and could could easily be a top four defenseman yeah would that make sense for the leafs nyes for this guy six feet tall 190 pounds right

not big but but still if you're using the nyes chip you're hoping you're doing better than that in my opinion. Okay, there are some people out there that aren't convinced that this guy is the next one. I am one of them. That's why you do it now. That's why you're saying yes. No, I'm saying that I don't... Listen, I'm saying both sides of this argument.

I am one of the people that kind of believes that undercurrent that he may not be what everybody's projecting him to be yeah but at the same time i think there's enough sort of top prospect pixie dust on him at this very moment for sure that you could aim a little higher than potentially dante fabbro if you're using that chip at this deadline i'm completely fine uh matt dumba yeah but matt dumba is going to ask For 8 million dollars next year And are you going to pay that

Well they have like 12 guys coming off the books next year This may be the time for them to actually do a rental Like to actually rent a player I know that's a faux pas But yeah do you want to trade Nyes for a rental That's scary I'm not doing that No chance No i need a restrictive restricted uh

contract i need control i need to know a guy's not walking out the door like uh nick felino did ross atkins over here need that control yeah yeah i've gone down that path yeah yeah so to the point where i had to give up a first rounder to get rid of somebody named patrick marlo so then and that was seth jarvis by the way that should be a leaf see any good so he's a so dante fabbro like you said he's an rfa after this season he's 2.4 this year so then you'd think that he's due for a raise when he's an RFA. But he can't. I don't think he can go into like a six. Five?

Yeah. Four? Yeah. Somewhere there. To me, I don't know. The Dumba thing is when you – I read your article today. I really look forward to your articles, Johnny Journalist. I always get lots of good juicy stuff out of them.

Thank you. But when you mentioned Dumba, that is what really piqued my interest. I love Matt Dumba. I've always loved Matt Dumba. I really like that he body checks people. Yeah. He's just, he's got an FU to him. Yeah.

I love that guy. That is the one that really got me interested. And I have no issues if they find a way to get them but can you keep them so you're you got to start thinking that muzzin's not coming back so that that gives you your close to what it was muzzin five six or five nine five six two five plus you need to add to that could you get him for uh seven,000, $7,250? Can you convince him to come under Morgan? Yeah.

Dumba? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. That's a good question, though. Soon to be $30,000, I think. You know, just talking to Garam there, you know, they're trying to survive with a limited salary cap, and that involves keeping your good players.

Do you think they would do it? You'd have to wait until the deadline until they're... 100%. And they'd have to be failing. 100%. Many would have to be... Which I think they're going to get in. You do.

I do. Yeah, let me do a quick standing sort here. Yeah, right now on the outside looking in in the western conference you got minnesota just outside the playoffs and you got nashville just outside the playoffs oh i clicked a button i shouldn't have clicked but in you have seattle you got winnipeg who's so so like there's some teams i think that could come out for those teams to get in and then none of those guys are available. St. Louis is 10-9 there in a playoff spot.

I know the Leafs. Minus 10 goal diff. The Leafs have, they have interest in Klingberg, for sure. Oh, yeah. See, that I can see because it's like Carlson Light and the acquisition cost is less. The long term is non-existent. But then, do you want to sign them that's even more of a pure rental yeah well again the the dallas liked them they just didn't like

him when he was asking for a gazillion dollars they're like wasn't he asking like eight times eight or something if that you got one times eight i mean one times seven it could have been seven yeah could have been a nine in there that's how ridiculous it was and it's like no no we're not even yeah you're moving on yeah that's how and he bet on himself and right now i don't think it's looking great uh in anaheim but they're they're really bad and Really bad. They're just. You know why? They're going to have to wait. They're going to have to wait.

Lindholm didn't look very good in Anaheim either. Yeah. Those orange jerseys slow you down five miles per hour because they're so ugly. And you can point to a lot of different things in Boston. To me, that was a shrewd move. Lindholm. Oh, my gosh. It's changed changed it's changed so much for them and just for fun that guy plays 24 minutes you're right getting another number one guy essentially like because he's got to be one of the 32 best defensemen in the league so he they got two number

ones having another number one really changes that that. Completely. Completely. The scope of the balance now that they have in their lineup. And let's face it, when Chara dropped off, even those last few years when he was not Chara as we knew him, it really affected the Boston Bruins. Then Lindholm comes in

and just drives it right back. What's he, 30 years old or something? Yeah. And he's not Chara, but he's Chara-like when it comes to having a major influence in a hockey game. Yeah. Oh, sorry. I was just thinking of contracts as we were talking about it, that Carolina just signed that Pyotr Kochikov, the goalie four years at two million per which is a crazy good i think a smart risk for carolina like

a good gamble this guy looks like i guess when they drafted him they thought he was going to be in the class of russian goalies kind of like you know sorokin and shisterkin and vasilevsky he was one of them and now he's a few years removed from the draft he's playing amazing they get him for four years at two mil it might be an amazing deal is your favorite goalie playing right now freddie anderson or is he hurt again i don't i whatever the case no comments on that i don't know whatever the case is freddie would look at that contract and go yeah i'm done here i'm done yeah i'm done i guess oh no he's 33 years old like so and the other goal is 91 and eight games this year renta right speaking of injuries and they're both if i'm not mistaken on expiring contracts

right uh anderson yeah because he after the trade that was it right he just had another two years if I'm not mistaken, on expiring contracts. Right? Anderson, yeah, because he, after the trade, that was it, right? He just had another two years. So both those goalies right now are like the turkeys on the table today. They're cooked. Oh, my God. Freddie's going to come back to the Leafs. Oh, my God. No.

Yes. He's going to cost like $2 dollars this year after he has an 890 in carolina they're gonna need someone oh thank you um what's this guy there's another guy you mentioned in your piece that i i have no thoughts or opinions i never even heard of the russian guy from columbus yes gavrikov gavrikov gavrikov big heavy guy heavy guy. 6'3". 6'3", 2'0". Yes. Big guy. And he'll get Columbus a nice return. And he'll probably play out like David Savard, where he can end up getting yourself a first rounder and plus.

Now, let's not forget, David Savard ended up in Tampa Bay, and I don't even think he played legit top four minutes right right yeah but uh yeah gavrik gavrik hub will play out uh as david savard did uh a few seasons ago yeah there's some options there's some options for these leafers so can i go back to something ask you guys a question we kind of glossed over before we broke to get to garen you guys would actually start matt marie in two games and on the back to back if he's rolling 100 oh my god you're gambling man oh yeah i had a point against the islanders and i i lost it because of my other goalie. Yeah, I guess so, but boy. So here's something about that game that I was starting to get to the point we had to cut

because Garen was waiting on us. The Simmons thing, dressing Simmons in that game tomorrow. So when I was with the Leafs, it was like a preseason game. The Leafs were playing Buffalo, and Buffalo dressed like a bunch of thugs, like just a four different guys who had clear intent and preseason to prove themselves and so the Leafs had a roster set but they were scrambling to replace guys to put in a couple people to answer that so Buffalo didn't

just come in and beat the hell out of them my point at the time was like if you don't have those guys to fight on Buffalo they're irrelevant like by dressing Simmons don't have those guys to fight on Buffalo, they're irrelevant. Like by dressing Simmons, don't you make Ryan Reeves relevant? If there's no one for him to engage with. Except Ryan likes the four check. Yeah, Ryan does more. And he scares people. Yes.

Okay? Yeah. I know. You want to have someone who will go do it if they have to say what you will about the oxygen that this guy sucks out of a dressing room for a second mika liked him chris kreider liked him and there's always something to be said when a guy like ryan starts chirping at you and you can look and go yeah well then talk to him right go talk to him let's see how brave you are go talk to him when you don't have that then it's just you having to to chirp them back yeah well right yeah

and it's it's still there i don't care uh how the game's changed it's still there i agree that ryan reese is a guy you almost certainly have to have someone in because he plays. He will talk to you. Ryan Reeves for checking. You want Victor Mete going back behind his net to get a puck with Reeves right on him? I like his chances better than Mac Hall.

It's true. Right. You know, I think there are those guys and not many of them left to you. Just you don't need to dress. No, the fight against, you know, used to be like even Wayne Simmons. Like if we think about Wayne seven Simmons and Maroon. Right. At least Wayne will go to toe to toe with him on and exchange that exchange

you're right about the point where you just get to go listen not there deal with him then then it's like okay who's gonna listen to it marner matthews tavaris aston reese there's no one there ryan reeves probably can stand in front of the leafs bench and just pick Marner and go, I'm going to eat you for lunch. Yeah. And Mitch is going to go, oh, yeah. Yeah, well, Bunting's going to dive, so. Yes. Yeah.

I guess. It's just, it's still there. I know there's like the analytics people who are listening going, just don't acknowledge him. You just go play. Just don't look him in the eye. Just skate around him. Just go score acknowledge them. You just go play. Just don't look them in the eye. Just skate around them. Just go score.

Yeah, and then what they should do is just listen to Lindy and close their computers. Yeah, close your computers. Get to know people. It's a human sport. Get to know your players and who's intimidated and who's not. Very true. So we still have a bunch of clips hold on oh uh oh what do we have i want we have not discussed nick robertson out of the lineup

in the lineup tomorrow out of the lineup i thought he was fine i said pre-game on tv i said d-man can not be noticed and it's fine nick had to be noticed he was didn't do anything that made me go wow i didn't i honestly don't remember one thing do you remember one thing good for check he got a puck and then protected it well and passed to the point he didn't cost you the game absolutely not but it's he's got to create a shot for himself some opportunities he just if you're gonna produce a be an offensive producer you got to produce a little offense i think did you was it you that was talking with the borning but it seems that his first three shifts in the game he's like i am about to put on a master class of hockey trying he's like here we go time to try

yeah and then it completely runs out you don't notice him again like i thought his first couple shifts you're like holy crap robertson's really it's that's really worked the benching's really worked and then it's just he can't keep up the level and he's not there anymore their work rate sammy the work rate the work rate's impossible to maintain so we talked about european kick hockey yesterday the work rate for canada was marvelous we're not talking before canada's next game but big one on sunday working his bag off what did you think of uh the coach in his uh yeah f croatia who said that um herdman did yeah oh he said but he said you got to get the the right uh context here and that was he's someone asked him right right off uh i guess uh the scrum that he had with his own team and

it's like what did you say to the players oh Oh, okay. I told them. Get ready. And it's that. It's a fearlessness thing they're going for. They just caught him at a moment where I don't think he gave too much thought on it. And he was trying to be candid. Yeah. And I guess many people found it disrespectful. I'm sure. Including Croatians.

Yeah. You don't say. I'm sure one of the proudest grittiest soccer countries on planet earth won't take that the wrong way from a minnow that's never been in the world cup before that will matter the final last world cup are they not that's listen belgium is one thing but they're soft they're soft team they team. They're very Leafs-y, very soft. Look at Modric. He's 1,000 years old. We're scoring a goal. We may score a goal, but Croatia's not Belgium.

They're gritty, pedigree, scary dudes. You remind me of Sheldon Keefe right now because you know what Sheldon Keefe does? Whoever you play, he tells you they're the best team in the world. It's like, and actually, we actually have a clip of him doing that with Jersey about best offensive, best defensive. It doesn't matter what team. Now, Sam, he's like, well, Belgium.

Belgium? Let me tell you about Croatia. Yeah, you're over-respecting them right now. I was always more afraid. Just to balance out. No, it's not true. I was always more afraid of Croatia than Belgium. Always.

Don't believe that for a second. They got pedigree, man. They're not constant disappointments. That's Belgium. Croatia, they show up. Oh, yeah. This is going to be tough. People are like, oh, if they played like that, like they did against Belgium,

yeah, it would be a game, but they're really good. So, anyways. Love it. Do we have any games tonight? Shout out to my boy Johnny Bravo, my Croat buddy. Going to watch the game with him on Sunday. He's got a viewing party. He'll be wearing his checkers, I think.

And we have no games. They schedule no games during American Thanksgiving. No hockey games. Nothing. Is that always the case? Yes. Fear of the NFL. I don't even know. So then you can go home and watch. I think it's is it Pat's Vikings tonight? Pat's Vikings. Yeah. There you go.

Okay. Our thanks to Billy Guerin, Gary Gally, and Stu Gavin. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening. We are back on Monday. Post-game tomorrow. Post-game tomorrow.

Check us out. Real Kipper and Bourne. Thanks, everybody. Have a great night. We'll be right back.