Real Kyper & Bourne - Roster Construction & Frustrations with Brian Lawton

Episode Date: February 26, 2025

Nick Kypreos and Gord Stellick are joined by former NHLer and general manager Brian Lawton (8:33) to chat about an organization's approach to constructing a roster line by line, the use of analytics, Mikko Rantanen's future in Carolina, Seth Jones' frustrations in Chicago, if we'll see the Vancouver Canucks and Brock Boeser come together on a contract extension, and if it's the right time for the St. Louis Blues to look at offers for Jordan Binnington. Then, Nick, Gord and Sam McKee look at the Canucks' trade deadline plans after moving off from J.T. Miller and the different dynamics of the rising salary cap.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

It's the national hour of the real kipper and born show. We are live on sports at six 50 in Vancouver sports at six nine 60 in Calgary. I think my eyes are going. That's okay. Just go to 600 and go 360. Full of 360. This hour, real Kipper and Boran brought to you by bet 365. You heard him. That is Gord Stelix, Sammy McKee. I'm Nick Kiprios. And we are less than 10 days away from the NHL trade deadline. In a few minutes moments, we'll welcome in Brian Lawton, former NHL player agent, general manager. He's always got a great ear to the ground this time of year, looking forward to talking

to him. But in the meantime, teams are still fighting away gourd for those last few playoff spots which makes them buyers or just cautious teams okay so I'll be quick here because I found last night I felt now we've returned to our regularly scheduled programming okay from the four nations face off kind of slow to get back into it and then last night I'm back into the regular NHL programming. So you've got Detroit's on a tear. They're serious. Columbus is on a tear. They're serious. The Rangers had a big W. Philadelphia, Montreal jumped over the New York Islanders who I'm

declaring sellers now. The Pittsburgh Penguins are a fire sale and they don't realize it so they're sellers now. Then on the West though is where it's last night's games. Calgary wins they're back in the playoffs Vancouver and the outside. St. Louis, Utah they may make a battle for it. Seattle, Nashville, Chicago out out out horrible season horrible season horrible season sell sell sell and that's where I think last night added that any kind of hope after the four nations face off that nevermind Chicago the other two may may pull off for one like say Nashville did last year that's gone so we're getting a little bit more of a division of

sellers. Meanwhile, I'm loving I'm loving the playoff races I don't think Ottawa fans are liking them so much right now because all of a sudden you're out of it one more time again and teams like Detroit and Columbus are in. Coach Nalbork and Edmonton experienced something for the first time four losses in a row here. They were losses. You look at the 17 goals I think. Yeah you know that's three. You look at the standings right now and it's kind of nice that you got a little bit of a cushion here but should Edmonton Oilers fans be concerned at all in your opinion? So, boys, Steve Allekat is so good, right? He was on yesterday and again I said I'm torn between like how can you dump on Stuart Skinner where the kid, because he's a young goaltender, took you to game seven of a Stanley Cup final like, you know He had a monster goaltending performance there to get them to game seven yet Steve Allek had had the stats about well No, here's where there's some concerns and again last night. Oh man. I get you know wrap around. Yeah. Yeah, exactly

So again one can't one game does not make a decision based on it But you know you want to leave no stone unturned and you got Arbetson and Skinner really have been in different acquisitions So I can see you know Stan Bowman saying hey We were one came away from it and you know We got a look maybe to shake rattle roll a little bit not to beat the dead horse for Edmonton or other fans here But you know that that Broberg Holloway decision They made this offseason to you know go with Skinner that they they decided to pay and That's one that feels like it's gonna haunt them a bit, you know

They had two young good players who they've they've been really good for the Blues this year I know Broberg was hurt for a little bit, but that's a tough one. It's a tough one Today on sportsnet.ca came out came out with my 4.0 trade board as we get ever so closer to the trade deadlines. Some interesting names that we'll go through, I think throughout the show. We'll also obviously get Brian Lotton to weigh in on a lot of it.

But Gord, for you, the sense is that this one will be a little bit more active than we've seen probably in the last few years Yeah, yeah, and I guess it's indicative like coming out of kovat. It was like okay the game. Okay, good, you know sense of normalcy Okay, like let's take some time and now there's just demands There's pressure and a lot of teams have high expectations the randon and deal already got it going. Like we mentioned, trades between Calgary, Philadelphia, you know, Vancouver, New York Rangers, those are trades. Trade deadline deal with San Jose and Dallas. That's a trade deadline deal. So I think it's like

the Wild West. And then Seth Jones, Patrick Kane did it two years ago. When you remember about getting traded to New York, remember nothing was going on and then Patrick Kane in Chicago kind of said, you got traded in New York. Seth Jones in a very measured articulate way but showing his exasperation and despair that Seth Jones now is not an if it's a where and a when and that and that's another big piece that's gonna be in motion with what he said after Chicago's loss last night. Yeah I the name that is relevant because the Leafs played them last night,

they had a big comeback win over the Bruins who now are even in a tougher spot. The most fascinating thing, I think there's bigger names, maybe more impactful players, but the Marchand question to me is the most fascinating one of the deadline. And I see him on your board today that you had him on your list,

I think second after Rantan. I really, this is a really really interesting deadline for the Bruins and specifically with Marchand. Yeah I had a choice of taking him off and I probably should have. I think. Yeah I think I should have but I just felt that the the information off of it was really important at least to where we sit now and I know you just go on the website for the pictures only Sammy but the things that yeah the thing that I wrote about Marchand is that it seems like first and foremost an extension seems to have hit a stalemate and it's been there

and it doesn't appear to be going to happen with Randon which yeah which doesn't appear to be going away soon here the big difference obviously between ranting and Marchand is the emotional attachment that Marchand and the Bruins have for one another and that's just Not that's non-existent for ranton and in carolina in colorado was boy. Oh boy colorado. It was yeah so the feeling at least going into this week for rent for marshall is that There is the option of trading him but If in fact if they don't get an extension and Marchand remains as

adamant as he is that he doesn't want to go anywhere then the probability of a team trading for him doesn't reach a feverish place. Well okay Boston and the New York Rangers to me can be two very interesting situations that they have to be in the playoffs, okay? So you're thinking, okay, then to be that, they've gotta be aggressive. Where maybe acknowledging, more in Boston's case, I think, but in both cases, that you know what? We're gonna fall a little bit short, we didn't expect to,

but let's not be Pittsburgh, okay? Let's not just wallow, let's do, like with Andy Brickley, we were surprised the Bruins did make the playoffs a couple years, you know, like 2013 2014 50 whatever may be I don't know if that's a question. He didn't hear from me. But anyway that that but they just quickly got you know That you do a little bit of a dip you make a few tweaks Okay, which could involve a training a player like that and then all of a sudden you're back at it Reinforced next year rather than wallowing and I wrote that today As part of my piece today was that and you and you use Boston of ten years ago

I use the Washington Capitals of today right as an example Not only for maybe the Bruins, but the st. Louis Blues as well. Is that do you really need to go into a four or five year re tool or rebuild when a team like the Washington Capitals were able to do it in 12 months? Yeah. All right. Let's welcome in Brian Lawton, former NHL player, agent, general manager, and has experienced this time of year wearing many different hats, lots. How are you, pal? I am doing fantastic, Kipper.

And to answer your question, the Washington Capitals were able to do it because they've got a very good friend of mine and terrific guy at his job, Tim Barnes, running their analytics. And if you look at their players, they've done it a lot of different ways, but a lot of it has been through their analytics department and you have to give them a ton of credit.

It's amazing what they were able to do when we all thought they might be down for three, four or five years. So is this, and Gord just mentioned the Boston Bruins and you know, we just mentioned Washington, of course, but is there, is there a handful of teams that can go down this path now? Is this the new norm now, instead of looking at a five-year program? I think you're highly unlikely to be able to do it. If you haven't spent the last two or three years minimum, I'd prefer four five, because it's been around that long building in analytics department, that can give you a more holistic view

of what every player does and how they fit into your lineup. If you talk to a lot of teams, it's more about individual matchups. It's not so much about, let's just go acquire the best players and see what happens. It's more about winning your third line,

winning their matchup, your fourth line being better than the other team's fourth line, your third line perhaps being able to shut down the other team's first or second line, because you know how the game works. This is what your background tells you, Kipper. There's a fluidity to it.

And the teams that I see that are doing really well in this area area Carolina, Florida Washington Tampa They understand this and they're doing a really good job going line by line I have been doing this myself for a very long time and I see a lot of the same results Or conclusions that other people are coming to so So, okay, Brian, us being older guys, whatever, in 2025, I like your props about the analytics, but what about the eyeball test still, that you've got analytics staffs,

but you've also got scouting staff, and you've got scouting staffs, then you've got the one guy that you go, I'm gonna call you later, okay, the one or two that you were your super bounce off guys, whatever, and that used to be all You had basically so where is the balance nowadays? Or are you saying like is it 90-10 analytics or where is the balance?

I still got to think there's a need for those kind of individuals within an organization There absolutely is and even if you go to the sports that are easy to analyze, like baseball, and we've done some of these tests with some of the people I've worked with, and you go back and look at the amateur scouts said about the young and upcoming players, the scouts eye test was actually better in that circumstance because quite frankly, they didn't have great data. You just had these guys going in and saying, I like to look at this player.

I like what he does. You know, there's people in the game that I've called in analytics geniuses long before we even created analytics. Shock, Lamar comes to mind. Shock could watch a warmup and tell you which players weren't going to play well that night. Like he was really incredible. Lula Amarillo has been able to do this for years. They were ahead of other people,

but ultimately now with the new player and puck tracking, if you've built an engine to digest that information so that you can determine what's, what's meaningful versus measurable, then you're way ahead of the game. You can really look at different pieces of the game, what different players who maybe you detest, Gord, because they make a play that's just so ugly. But it's only one mistake. And if they make nine other great plays that maybe don't shine the way the mistake goes bad, then you're on to something. I would offer a guy like Evan Bouchard as an example of this. Evan looks like sometimes he's not trying, he's disengaged, his blunders tend to be really obvious, sometimes really ugly, but he far outweighs his value in the good things he does.

And there's a reason why he was so dominant last year in the playoffs for Edmonton. He hasn't maybe played up to that level this year, and he's striving to get back to it, but there's just a lot that goes into evaluating players, and we have way more tools today than we used to. You're watching and listening to Brian Lawton, former NHL player, agent, general manager,

as we get ever so closer to the nhl trade deadline lots my List came out for sportsnet.ca my fourth edition Uh as we get ever so closer here I'm, not sure if you had a chance to look at some of the names that I threw up and i'm gonna throw A few at you And you know go anywhere you'll want at you and you know go anywhere you want. Top of the list obviously the the whole world the whole hockey world's watching me Corranton and again very seldom that we see a guy this good in his prime get

bounced around like a pinball but is that going to be the case between now and this time next Friday going to be the case between now and this time next Friday if the Carolina Hurricanes can't get him signed? Certainly a possibility. But first off, of course, I looked at your list. I always do Kipper because I think you do a phenomenal job. So thank you. I think it's a huge benefit to everybody that's out there. If you haven't checked it out, but in terms of Miko ranted in, there's a lot

of disi on about Miko. If you talk a lot of coaches and often about man at mckinnon is be surprised how many peo ranted it. He's the guy a really killed us. So now Mico has been trad it's any secret that he w

that did not work out for Obviously they couldn't c a contract. Eventually he was brought in. He was mo That's a very good player is much cheaper also at 6.5 million this year and 6.5 next year. Colorado had their reasons for wanting to do that.

It was ultimately their decision, not Rantinen's. So Rantinen goes to Carolina, hasn't played up to the standards by the general metrics that most people use, which are goals and assists. And through his eight games, he's got a few points. It's a shadow of what he's done or had done in the past. I think you have to discount that if you I was fortunate enough to attend three of

his games in the last probably almost three weeks now because of the four nations, but he was sensational in those games. He just wasn't scoring. You can see he's a little bit off, which you have to expect that when he gets traded. Carolina, on the other hand, clearly wants to sign him. They traded for him for a reason. They love him. It really will come down to the player more than even contract, because a lot's been made of that. But it'll come down to whether or not the player is willing to give up his right that he has worked or waited a very long time for and that is of course unrestricted free agency doesn't really know any other teams so everything about carolina is

new to him tom dunn is doing a great job um Their team has been winning consistently since he took over as an owner. But that story is yet to be written and it is a possibility that he could be retreated because I wouldn't see an analytics driven smart organization like Carolina just acquiring Ranton and losing the player they lost as a rental for the year. I just don't see that happening. So by the way, Brian, I love your talking about Jacques

Clamer because they always got to throw the name Jim Gregory, who's the greatest, greatest guy I met. He had that knack. Any hockey game he would predict the game. Any hockey game you chat with him, he just had that kind of knack. So I love those kinds of individuals. So as a general manager and a player agent,

so okay, Seth Jones name has been out there for a while, but a whole new level last night. And he was measured, he was calm, he articulated, and that. So if you're Kyle Davidson today, or Seth Jones' agent today, what are you doing? I don't think he would have been thrilled to hear that, and yet you can't blame Seth Jones for speaking his mind. Seth Jones has a lot of really good hockey left in him.

I think that his game has dropped on the basis of they're just not that close to winning. Kipper's been there. You understand this. It's a downer. They've got a lot of work to do in Chicago. They're trying to do it. Rodart has gone not backwards just probably sideways. I think that's overblown. He's a young player. He's going to have ups and downs. He's going to be a great player. Overall the organization though has not shown a lot of progress. I think Seth Jones is frustrated by that.

I think what you're saying, Gord, was very, very truthful to how that whole interview was handled. It wasn't like he was complaining and raving and he hated Chicago or anything like that. It's just more of the realization as you get to your 30s that you only have so much good hockey left to play. And a player like Seth Jones, who really should have been on the U S team,

not should have been in that Billy Garan made a mistake and didn't take them, should have been in that. He has that type of skill level, that type of hockey IQ, that type of physical, um, being where he could have been a very, very good defenseman on a very good defensive team in Team USA. So I'm sure he's looking at that and saying, man, I'd love to have a chance to play in the Olympics. My chances are not increased by playing here in Chicago. So what about somewhere else? Lots. How about just the fact that you could, a team could trade for Seth Jones, knock off about five or six minutes of what he's used to in Chicago, put him in an environment like

two teams that he's been linked to is Dallas and or Florida. And he will get better with less minutes and less responsibility of carrying all the weight on his shoulders. No. 100%. I know Seth personally, I have a lot of good friends that are very good friends with him. He'd never admit it. But I think he's a little bit beaten down that it hasn't gone better. He takes losing hard. It's no fun. hasn't gone better. He takes losing hard. It's no fun. Everybody, as we saw with these players through the four nations, all these guys that make it to the NHL, I don't care if you're an elite defenseman like Seth Jones or a fourth liner, there's a massive amount of pride in what you do and you want to do it as well

as you can. If he went to a team like Dallas, I could name 10 teams that would love to have him. Salary caps are tight, that's prohibitive. I think after last night, Gord, his chances went up that he'll be moved at some point, whether or not it's this deadline in the summer or down the road, I think it's inevitable. Almost 26 minutes last night from way too much.

Okay, we got some Vancouver Canuck fans out there Dying to get your thoughts on Brock Besser There's just no way when goals are hard to come by and shots on goal are hard to come by that Jimmy Rutherford is not taking a crack at finding a way to sign him Before he needs to make the ultimate decision of moving him or not Yeah, I think Vancouver has grown to appreciate Brock. There was a time there where they were not that thrilled with him. I don't think they appreciated what he brings every night.

I know Brock personally, he's a terrific human being. I think he's in a lot of ways misunderstood as a player. People think he's not fast, he can't really skate. That's not true. he can't really skate. That's not true. Brock moves around the ice fine. He's a clutch goal scorer. I think he has the ability to turn into

what Sam Reinhardt was able to turn into when he went to Florida, if he gets into the right situation. And I think that'll make it, I think Vancouver recognizes this when they see him. They'd probably like to see it more consistently. But Brock is capable of that. So that'll be a close one to watch. Kibber, I don't disagree with you. I think it'd be hard for Jimmy Rutherford to pass on him. And yet it feels like there's been a lot of noise around Vancouver in the last six to nine months.

So you never know what's going to happen. See Gordon smiling. Well let's talk about Jimmy Rutherford's old team and the Pittsburgh Penguins. So the Buffalo Sabres now, they're dead last Pittsburgh. I know they got more points, but the Sabres winning percentage is ahead of the Pittsburgh Penguins. So, you know, Brian, one thing I liked about yesterday's game with Washington, Ovechkin scores, so that's kind of the story, even though they lost.

And I thought he'd be chasing the record maybe in a vacuum, that the story would be, Ovechkin scores, capital loses, they won again. You know what I mean? So the good part is, he's on a relevant team. Like, is Sidney Crosby's next game that matters gonna be the Olympics? Is that it?

Like, they're not a rebuilding team. They're all the young talent. But Sid wants to stay there. I'm not not going to want to stay there. Gino wants to stay there like like, like, tell me give me the scoop on the Pittsburgh Penguins that I just I just don't get. It's a fair question from a fan standpoint. I don't know about you, but I always want to see these great players like Sidney Crosby competing at the highest level at the most important time of the year, pushing themselves to the edge. And Sid actually statistically showed really well

in the Four Nations. I felt like he was severely injured to be honest with you and he still played incredible and talks a lot about or shows a lot of his character. Pittsburgh is in a dilemma. If a player like that wants to stay then he certainly can stay. I think the only way a player like that can ever leave because Gord I know you're smiling because you're also thinking oh man if I was running that team and I had to look to the future. I'd feel like it was my fiduciary responsibility To try to maximize that asset You know and that's a tough thing to do when you have a hall of fame player like sydney crosby I don't think anybody would take on that challenge nor should they but I do think if sid were to go to them and say

I've got this guy that I kind of grew up in my neighborhood back in coal harbor out in Colorado And maybe I could you know Play for them and you guys could get a nice return I'm making all that up because I've never heard that since ever done anything like that. I as a matter of fact I believe in my heart He looks at a guy like Mario and says, Mario played the whole time here. I wanna play the whole time here.

He looks at Steve Iserman and sees the same thing. But if a guy did wanna move, you can always throw out the greatest move of all, which of course one of them was Ray Bork. All those years in Boston, didn't get it done. And then, you know, one day wakes up and says, I want to go somewhere and try to win, which of course he did win. And then he retired. One more here. Lots for me. Anyways, the one team that I did pick that could end up being the biggest star of the day next week is the St. Louis Blues.

I wrote that I don't believe that they're in a fire sale, but there are as many as three or four prominent names there. Jordan Bennington, who we've all questioned since he's won a Stanley Cup. How many years ago, Gord? 2019. 2019. All of a sudden, his star is shining best right now. If you are Doug Armstrong and you know that he's got two years left at six million

and you're going through this transition period for the organization, would now be the best time to try to sell Jordan Bennington? There's no doubt his value is back to where it was after 2019. You know, and he did it in a relatively short time, but he proved that he's a big-time goalie under massive pressure situations. So yes, I think they have a number of players that teams would be very interested in. No, no, no. Let me rephrase that. Edmonton Oilers.

Edmonton, of course, that's not gone well, but maybe that's a small sample size. We don't know yet, although there's not a lot of time to find out. So that would make a lot of people in management, they're probably uncomfortable because their team had played really well. But the situation for me in St. Louis is more centered around this transition plan. Doug Armstrong has another year as general manager,

then it's going to transfer to Steve, who's waiting in the wings, is apprenticing under Doug, he's been tabbed as the next GM. And in my opinion, this is where it gets much more complicated. Gord, you're Steen, Kipper, you're Army, are your visions alive? You're fired, Gord. No, I reside okay No, gourd you're chomping at the bit because your opportunity to manage one of these clubs Which is a great honor is coming your way shortly. It's coming down

Down the down the pike and notwithstanding you get hit by a bus You're gonna be there and you're gonna be ready to do the job. And you're an astute human like Steen is. Your father was in the game. You've got, you know, great pedigree. You've got great character. But you may be looking more in the it's time for the next generation of St. Louis Blues. So what does that mean? You know, for Kipper, who's pretending he's army it means

Maybe I wish Kipper would trade some of the players that are past 30 31 32 who would that be on their team? Braco Fowler Falk Letty You know, there's a there's a guy Chen at the middle Yes, there's Shen there's a guy Chen at the middle Yes, there's Shen you're looking at Jordan Bennington You know that's that's the dilemma to me and how these guys play down the stretch Never mind We need to bring in somebody else to be Jim Montgomery because that would be a completely different Opinion of what the club should do one of which is always the same from a coach.

We must win now, because that's how they've been raised, that's how they see things. It's not always the right answer though and that's why Doug Armstrong is so key in this, trying to chart the right course for what's best for the St. Louis Blues. You guys always ask me to just say what you mean lots. In my opinion, I do think that they could very much be like the Washington Capitals when I look at some of the younger players they have on their team that aren't necessarily, you know, 20 to 23 year olds, but guys like Thomas Cairo neighbors. I think there's enough there where you can retool that on the fly and you're not out of the picture for three, four, five years. So I think what happens

with St. Louis is gonna be really fascinating to watch because we know it's gonna happen in essentially the next ten days. You mentioned an interesting thing about how much you, the coaches always want the present right because they know that's great for you as a general manager that bring young people in. I remember once I think was with John Ferguson that Pat Quinn being the old powerful coach I think he gave up a second for Yannick Perot and Pat Quinn said screw it I'm not gonna play him and the second went to Nashville and they used it to get Roman Yossi a few but what so I'm curious about the appropriateness of bringing a coach in on trade talk.

And there's 32 different relationships, okay? Some the GM has a lot of clout, others the coach kind of, I don't know. It really varies throughout the league, depending on your tenure and your personality. You know, there are a lot of coaches I feel are super involved. There's other ones, you know, not so much. And you could name a lot of there are a lot of coaches I feel are super involved There's other ones, you know, not so much and you could name a lot of these guys

But at the end of the day for me personally as a manager, I always wanted the coaches opinion They're the field general down there on the front lines still Seeing things that you can only see when you're standing behind the bench about players So I think you want to get that information out of them. Um, I think the relationship works best when coaches understand that their role is to make the group of existing players they have better. And that's what they should spend 80 to 90% of their time on. If they have thoughts, you wanna hear them.

I wanted to hear them. And you wanna help them. You wanna let them help you make better decisions because the coaches know really more than the managers do. If you break it down, they just have their hands full trying to wrangle in their team on a daily basis. It's a massive marathon and sprint for these guys at the same time. Last thought lots, does this trade deadline have a chance to have a much different feel than the last few years based on the cushion of a salary cap going up substantially in the next three years?

substantially in the next three years? I think that question is really valid Kipper, you know like it's been so tight I'm still hearing this a little too much. So i'm surprised. Oh my god. We don't have any cap space What are we going to do? There's always a way If you're creative Uh, if you're willing to roll the sleeves up, there's always a way to make it work out. It's hard work, twice as hard as it used to be, but you can still get things done. For me, the macro thought would be, okay, next year we're going to 95.5. It's our biggest

increase we've had in five years, longer than that, I believe. And what is that going to do to the league? I think it's going to give everybody more money. That means I'm going to get forced to have to pay more for free agents. I'm going to have to compete with more teams. I'm making my stand right now. If I'm an NHL team and I think I got a good team, I'm 100% going all in on this trade deadline and I'm moving mountains to get the guys I want. That's just my opinion. That doesn't mean it's right.

We like your opinion and I'm sure the fans out there watching and listening feel the same way as we get ever so closer to trade deadline. Hey, lots of great stuff, man. Thanks for doing this. Thanks guys. You know, I really like this because whenever I do an interview with Gord, I can never see him smiling or, you know, I just know he's going to sing me with something, but it's good to be able to look your accuser in the face.

Great seeing you as well, Brian. That is Brian Lawton, former NHL player, agent, and general manager, and a great guest on The Real Kipper and Moritz Schell. Quickly, I want to qualify. Yeah. I want to qualify. Like, I'm selfishly. Let's be selfish.

I want to see the great players in the playoffs. I want to see Ovechkin in the playoffs. I want to see Sidney Crosby in the playoffs. I want to see McDavid in the play. Like, I want those players to be in. And so I'm not saying Sidney Crosby in the playoffs. I want to see McDavid in the playoffs. I want those players to be in. So I'm not saying Sidney Crosby... I respect Sidney Crosby's right to want to stay in Pittsburgh and he has one Stanley Cup rings there. I'm just saying like what the hell's going on there? Like you know just you know just you're not rebuilding and all of a sudden

you're out again and whatever. So will Sidney Crosby ever be in the playoffs again as a member of the Pittsburgh Penguins? So anyway, I do respect if anybody has a right to stay where they want to stay Absolutely, that is him and he's earned everything from being loyal to them to changing his mind If he wants as early as next week or this summer would Patrick Kane have stayed in Chicago if they were half-decent probably, right I Don't know. Is it a comparable like, you know, no, I don't think it is. I don't know, is it a comparable? Like, you know? No, I don't think it is. I don't think it is because money would be an issue

probably for Pat Kane, more in Chicago, and what he's worth maybe there or somewhere else, and it just wouldn't with Sid. You just pay whatever he asks for. Whatever his jersey number is. No. Yeah, it's Gord, not George. All right, continue. Oh, hear him back. To your point, if he stays in Pittsburgh, you'll never play another Stanley Cup playoff game. Well, that's what I'm thinking. It's heartbreaking. That's what I'm seeing right now. They are dead last.

They're horrible. Dead last in the Eastern Conference. They have no goalie. They have a brutal defense. They have no kids. They have no goalie. They have a brutal defense. They have no kids. They have no youth. No. Like San Jose has youth. San Jose is a bad team, but they got a bunch of young guys, right?

They got hope in that regard. Take a break and we'll do game time on the other side. All right, you heard the man. All right, and we'll get into a little bit more Brian Lawton talked about after the break about teams maybe spending more, because if they don't spend it on their team, they're going to have to spend it back to the players. I'll explain when we

return to Real Kipper and Bourne. the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. As a reminder, this hour of real kipper and born brought to you by bet three, six, five, which means a little game time. Sammy McKee. It's game time. Is that about bet three, six, Visit the app, play the odds and find out why it's ever ordinary. Bet365, a spin 19 plus, a tarot only, please play responsibly. Three games tonight across the league. Big one tonight for the Ottawa Senators hosting the red hot Winnipeg Jets. And we get accused on this show of not talking enough about the Jets. So we'll use Bet365 to do our favorite segment called

Jets Talk. Boys, how good are the Jets? The Jets are very, very good. Very good. Compliment the Jets time. Well, the one thing that you actually, what I really loved about the four nations face off was that, of course, we get all accused of following our local teams more than others, but you get to really watch everybody under one roof, which is really cool. I know who you're going to say. Morrissey, as much as you think you know he's a good player, he's really good. Yeah, I thought Jacob Slavin to me was a team USA, but hey the final game Nathan McKinnon scored against Connor Hellebuck. I mean the Jets Carolina Toronto are the three teams that

What can they do in the playoffs to differentiate from having so many great regular seasons? Oh, we'll be well We're being nice to them. We don't want to get too mad Jets talk is only positive the only one ten in a row now and okay They have of 85 points from 58 games 41 wins this year unbelievable season They are big favorites in Ottawa tonight minus 155 on the money line and the other Canadian team in action tonight the Vancouver Canucks speaking of teams who are desperate for a win The they are in LA to take on the Kings. They are plus 150 underdogs Yeah, just for our folks in Vancouver, they are in desperate need of a win to take on the Kings. They are plus 150 underdogs.

Yeah, just for our folks in Vancouver, they are in desperate need of a win. They're fighting with the Calgary Flames. We got a great road win last night against the Washington Capitals. So they're in a dogfight for that last playoff spot. I should have taken Pedersen off my trade board today, but I didn't for just one reason and one reason only. What's that?

Jimmy Rutherford What about him wild man, that's your general manager. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I do not put anything past Oh, yeah that guy on This time of year. Mm-hmm. No anything goes but if he does not come out of this funk I think it's a it's realistic that comes summertime No, anything goes. But if he does not come out of this funk, I think it's realistic that come summertime, he may not get to July 1st where his no move kicks in. You know, certain guys have lost the love of the game. We talk about being mentally exhausted,

rather than physically exhausted, and he looks that way. So, like he looks that way. Like he looks lost. So I'm just gonna wrap up game time and you can watch both those games tonight on Sportset, part of the double header on Wednesday Night Hockey. So that was game time.

Visit my bet 365, visit the at Flatest Odds and find out why it's ever ordinary at bet 365, let's do 19 plus on Terran Only. Please play responsibly. So quick thing I wanna say, because our son Justin is watching from Halifax at Dalhousie with Will and Scott and Tanner. They've had a great roommate set up there.

Are your boys, like, do you watch now when you watch with your sons because they like to do bets that it's just a whole different world watching games, you know, about, and they got there, and they're watching like 82 games at the same time, and they got all that particular action going on so are they using you as information man well they did until they declared personal

bankruptcy when they use me so they're kind of young to do that so yes I do not offer up actually they sometimes they have better information than we have right they're really on top of it can I say something quick to Justin yeah get back to school what are you doing what are we paying you all that money for that's true Halifax I like it a fantastic city yeah what a place to go to university that was me talking to my kid yeah I know I know 15 years ago on your show yeah Yeah, I know, I know. 15 years ago on your show. Yeah, I know, I know.

We used to do the fun things with Landry and he made those bits of you and Marie and everything and trying to get, snap your kids in order. Okay, anyway. You just pulled the Doug McClain and just drove the show in the ditch for like 30 seconds. No, no, Doug goes in the ditch and keeps driving, okay? I at least call a CAA and try to get out of the ditch. In our Leaf Hour edition, we had a little bit of a conversation on,

perhaps Austin Matthews got a little of an emotional letdown in his game right now. Some fatigue be involved, of course. We wanna go back to say, was there a nagging injury over the past season that's coming into play? Pedersen, could he be hitting a bit of a mental brick wall right now? Yeah, 100%.

Like you know, and there's so much support now about, you know, psychologists and everything else and people talk about, you know, battling depression. It used to be, hey, and sports was the the worst for it snap out of it, right? And it's a lot that he's had to endure. I know he makes a lot of money, but You know the microcosm when you wake up and you're you're in a funk It's like waking up with a physical injury the same kind of thing that it doesn't go away overnight And I mean, I'm not saying that's what he has I have no idea but boy oh boy he's he's they made the trade they knew that one of them had to go and he he continues to be a shell of the player that

deservedly got that big contract last year. Hi, so it's a scary one for Canucks fans I would imagine I mean there's a lot a big portion of Canucks fandom that like us with Matthews is saying that he's banged up and there's knee stuff and that he's been hurt and he Hasn't been right. So there's that that similar thing like you said, but I don't know you've watched him enough Where it's just not even close to the same guy I know we talked to bro Brock Besser with Brian Lotton but if you're Jimmy Rutherford and you know you've got a legit 30 goal score it's it's a tough one to move him out but yeah at the same time if you're

thinking about a very legitimate offer that would entice him to stay in your mind what would that offer be? Because you was honest about Bo Horvat, right? He said Bo Horvat picked the best year to have a really good year, and they had to trade him. And yeah, funny animal in Vancouver about the ups and downs, like you're riding high, then you're not riding high. So you're saying, okay, like I thought last year,

Philip Roenick was a really good pickup. I thought that was a good pickup for Vancouver, right? They gave a kind of a quiet one for last year, the year before, whatever it was, but a draft pick to Detroit and got a guy that plays on their blue line. And I, and I, so that to me, Kipper, like draft pick's not going to help them. Like Vancouver, they, they, they were in the playoffs. They were the Western Conference version of the New York Rangers that were in the playoffs after 20 games, like comfortably in the playoffs. And they the Western Conference version of the New York Rangers that were in the playoffs

after 20 games, comfortably in the playoffs, and they don't expect not to be in there. So I don't know what kind of quid pro quo trade can there be for Brock Besser. Otherwise, you gotta have him in your lineup. He makes now 6.65. So for a guy to hit unrestricted free agency at his age Which is 20 20 28. Yep 28

It's gonna be a raise from six million gorg but can I would believe that the Vancouver Connex would First of all, there, there's the AAV and then there's the term. Now, only the great ones can hit both. It seems to me like Jimmy Rutherford wants to go to Brock Besser, I love you bud, but pick one. Pick the term or pick the AAV, but you can't have both. So would you up the AAV on a short term deal

or would you say I'll give you six or seven years, but that AAV's gotta be seven, seven one. Quick, quick, quick, but the other one, much like Miko Ratnan, if you've come this far, no, no, Ratnan's with a new team. But like, is he married that he definitely want, is there a meeting of the minds about He definitely wants to be a Canuck and they could I definitely want that I think all indications

I hear and read is that he loves it there it seems to be that way versus when you're this close and the caps going up and I think that's obviously what ranting is looking around saying hey You only get so many chances to truly be a ufa and I'm, they've always talked about him with Minnesota. Well, you know, how much everyone talks about home and all those other kinds of things. But yeah, I, so, okay, signs now is great, you lock them up. But the other one is, if you don't, and I know Doug Armstrong has always been big on if you're not

locked up, I'm going to trade you, there's a good chance I'm going to trade you. But like Brian Laudin says, says you really you really got to leave no stone unturned You got to go for everything this year. So part of it is not giving up a Brock Besser For a future if you're the Vancouver Canucks Ian McIntyre has a piece on sports net where he spoke with Besser I think it came out today Yeah, it came out today where he's frustrated a little bit with the contract situation and maybe thought something would be done, just paraphrasing from the article here.

I think he's a good contributor to that team. I think he would definitely be a little bit wary of overpaying him, but I feel like he's a guy that Canuck fans really like and that would be a big loss to their team to me. me and you know JT Miller you've lost JT Miller sure are you trying to make the playoffs like what is like you said like you're not gonna trade him for a pick like what are you really trying to do so that's a they're kind of stuck there with that one the

other factor and I kind of touched on this before we went to break and I said I'd revisit it after the break is I'm not sure people truly understand what a rising salary cap does the next three years. So over the over the course of the last 15 years, the struggles of the cap going up, the escrow was to make sure that the owners didn't overspend on the 50 50 partnership, right? So it's always been about escrow. Now the escrow's disappeared and the cap and the revenue is rising. Now the obligation is on the owners to go put that money back in for 50-50. I'm not sure that many of these owners will be able to spend it fast enough in the next three years to put it back to the players, which means if they don't, then they're going to have to stroke a check.

It's called surplus of the money back to the players. And we're talking, we could be talking as much as 200 or $300 million. And for me, I'd rather as a fan, as a season ticket holder, don't stroke him a check. Like put it into the roster. Use the money internally. Use the money on the roster. Yeah. But that'll only happen if you like the player too, right?

And you want them and you are committed to them. If you're not Then it'll it may open an interesting dynamic I remember back when I was with the Rangers before you as assistant general manager going out with the assistant general manager the New York Knicks for Lunch and they were a cap the cap was really successful there. It kind of saved the NBA and he was just saying on that day players were getting a check for something like NBA. And he was just saying on that day, players were getting a check for something like $38,000 each, because that's for teams that were under the cap. So basically, it was the kind of

point that the cap also meant there was an obligation to spend a certain amount. So we're talking nickel and dime compared to now. And you're talking the same kind of thing that, okay, if you think you're saving money, you're just saving it, but you're going to write that big check and it's going to go back in the community pool. So there's gonna be a whole different kind of strategy about things and then the other one is okay the caps going up, same players just make more money. You know what I mean? Like Sal is like oh great we're gonna bring it. No, it's the same. The same players all just make just make the same money basically a year from now. But we also have a lot of superstars that are

tied into five or six year contracts already. So it's that much harder to put it into the system somewhere else too. So that's the interesting dynamic as well. But fascinating times, but at the end of the day, revenues are growing, somebody's getting richer. It's not me or you or Sam right now, but somebody's getting richer with- Justin Bourne's gone to Disney richer. It's not me or you or Sam right now, but somebody's getting richer with-

Justin Bourne's gone to Disney World. It must be him. It's gotta be him. It's gotta be him. It's gotta be him, but it seems healthy enough. I know there's still some challenges out there, but it just seems healthy enough that at least it's going in the right direction.

It's nice having positive news. At a time right now, we're not getting a lot of it, okay? You know, we got a lot of just everything is a concern about world order, tariffs, are we in a reset, like whatever, you know, it's nice and general. And I really believe like attitude is huge, okay? And that's why I kind of don't like the attitude now because there's a lot of things to be positive about.

Just funny how things can change on a dime sometimes. And certainly, yeah, I like this that we have we finally got the International Hockey in I mean it didn't it didn't happen because of COVID before and we knew that was a bitter pill and now this kind of optimistic news legitimate after year after year justifiably so because of COVID you know having new challenge and new and unexpected challenges so it's great it's great, it's great. And what's great is you got a great dinner tonight, Sammy, I would've lent you a suit.

I got it. I forgot it, but I had to go back home, so I was almost late today. You also will be attending the Con Smythe dinner. Can't wait for my favorite thing. And who is being honored tonight, George Delacroix? Cito Gaston is getting the, so they have like a lifetime achievement award.

Of course, Con Smythe's the house that Smythe built. And this has been a charity dinner for many, many, many years. Like I think it's the longest running one maybe in Canada. They're hard to run, you know. There's not that many of them anymore. Our thanks to Dr. Jason Smith, orthopedic surgeon to the stars, and Brian Lawton. We're back tomorrow with Gordo, real Kipper and Bourne.