Real Kyper & Bourne - Survival Mode

Episode Date: May 12, 2023

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee open with the Leafs’ upcoming Game 5 match up with hopes to see a Game 6 back in Florida, core four problems and Matthews needing to step up for Game 5. They are joined by The Athletic's Joshua Kloke, who shares his concern for the core four's production, Sheldon Keefe challenging his players to score more and Jo Woll’s performance after Game 4 (45:00). Next up, former NHL President, GM & Head Coach Doug Maclean discusses how impactful Luke Schenn has been during the playoffs and Keith Jones becoming President of Hockey Operations in Philadelphia (01:06:27). Finally, Blues' coaching consultant Ken Hitchcock joins the show and explains how well Paul Maurice has been for the Panthers.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

This is real Kipper and born on Sportsnet 590 the van. Got a game five doubters out there. I'm sure if we're even going to see a five, but we are and we're glad you are all along for the ride why are you pointing at sammy there's some doubters out there we got a terrific show for you in the next two hours and we'll get you ready for tonight's contest off the rails friday can only mean one thing doug mclean will join us in about 50 minutes We'll also get a scene setter from Joshua Cloak, a leaf writer for The Athletic. We've had him on a couple of times.

I actually enjoyed his article a few days ago because it kind of reminded me of Sammy, where the gist of his column was, even if they come back and win, it's not enjoyable. At least that's the way I took it. That it's not the real way it's supposed to go. You're supposed to cheer as you go along. Not cheer, bail, cheer, bail.

Yeah, yeah, no, you're right. And it does feel like to get those people back though, Kip, a win tonight, you can't tell me all that. Everyone's not back in. I am right, Sammy. They win tonight. Sunday night. You are in.

Yeah. Yeah, of course. You're going to do something like you even you even yourself. You did touch on this, though, that it wouldn't be unlike them to come back, hook you back in, and then chop you off at the knees at the end. Yeah, the only question is, is game five enough pain? Have they done enough? And are you protecting yourself against that, Sammy?

I don't know what I'm doing, boys. I'm really game to game here now with how I'm feeling about this team. I still don't feel – I wouldn't say I feel excellent about them after they won in game four, which was a super – Narrowly. Yeah, good defensive effort, but it still wasn't an offensive breakout. I put the stat in the lineup today that this is the first streak of six straight games of scoring two or fewer goals since 2011-2012

for the Toronto Maple Leafs. Which in itself is remarkable. Insanity, given all the offensive talent they have. Very, very bad timing for a streak like this. So, like, I'm totally game to game. I don't know about you guys, but I have absolutely no idea what I'm going to see from the Toronto Maple Leafs. Craziest part about that, they've scored two straight goals in six games.

The other stats Sammy has in there, 11 players have scored those 12 goals. So it's not like any one player is doing it. They're just kind of chipping away as a group. A ton to get into, including Ken Hitchcock in the second hours. We've had Ken on before. Really good. I really enjoy talking ken uh and looking forward to it again in the second hour uh we got a ton of clips here uh to get into that offense that you're talking about including from sheldon keith on on matthews uh the home ice struggles i know keith has a comment on the home ice struggles.

I want to go to that one first, and then I'm going to give you guys something that the Leafs did to change things up with their approach going into game five. Let's go to Sheldon first. We've had a mixed bag here at home ice. We've had

probably two of the best games we've played, you know, of the playoffs here in this building, game two in both series, I thought were really good. Obviously, we didn't get on the right side of the game in game two here against Florida, but I thought in terms of our execution, our pace offensively, the chances that we generated, that's the best we've looked offensively in both games. So we've played really well at different times here.

I thought, you know, game five against Tampa, you know, that one probably can go either way type of thing. But like I said, it's been an X bag, but certainly we're overdue to have a real solid 60-minute effort here on home ice. So, in the hopes of turning things around at home, I was told that the Leaf players, upon their return to Toronto, were told that they were to go home, get a few things,

come back for a team meal, and then check into a hotel. So I'm just wondering now, the feeling now of the guys coming home, whether or not some wanted to go home, sleep in their own beds, or check into a hotel. I can certainly see where they're coming from in terms of we've got the most complete road game so far and let's bring that road mentality home and treat this like a a road game yeah uh you know my dad's islanders teams did it during their playoff runs you know they stayed in a hotel right by the the rink there

i know that's um you know they believe that it eliminated the distractions of home and like i can't help but look at a guy like john tavarez who has three kids including a newborn and they're they're being like hey john you're gonna sleep in a king bed in your own room tonight instead of in the house of the three kids and him not being like okay if you insist like i would love to hear those words and my kids are six and three like i i think it makes sense i'm sure some wives were like i'm sorry you're not coming home you know like not as thrilled about it but you know they're part of the team at this point i don't hands on deck yeah what are your thoughts uh off the top sammy same thing just treat it like a a road game i think it's a bit of an overthink

maybe i think it's maybe some you know you saying that your dad's teams did it makes me feel a little bit less this way but like my first reaction to hearing you say that is like which one of the hundred development people in the within the organization cooked up that idea. You know, I think if you went back through even recent history, it's not wildly uncommon, I don't think. I agree. Yeah? Have you done it before, Kipper? No.

Okay. I'll tell you how close we got to it, though. In 1994, we were up 3-1 against vancouver lost the next two games and i told you the other day we had two days off between six and game seven and keenan wanted to take us to lake placid what yes what do you mean didn't want us to go back home for two days in the new york city and so you played vancouver he wanted to go to lake placid yes and then sit there for two days and then come home for game seven that's a bad idea and get all worked out. So you played Vancouver. He wanted to go to Lake Placid. Yes. And then?

Sit there for two days and then come home for game seven. That's a bad idea. Wow. That's an overthink. You know who told him that was an overthink? Mr. Messier? Correct. No one else is going to tell him. Hey, listen.

Mike, good coach. Yeah. We're going to go home. We're going to sleep in our own beds like we have all year long and we're gonna go back to madison square garden and we're gonna win game seven yeah and everybody is just gonna take a little bit of a chill pill and yeah treat it exactly the same and i don't know uh again it would be hard to please 23 guys, whatever's on their roster right now. There would be some differences.

There would be some guys going, come on, overthinking here. Just let us go home. Yeah. And there'll be others, like you said, maybe it is a young child. Maybe it is a young child that will enable you not to get a good night's rest. Whatever the case is, it's anyone's guess how this plays out. Yeah. I mean, this sounds terrible, but, like, at home,

sometimes your dog wakes up and starts yapping at 5 a.m. Sometimes your kid has bad dreams and comes in your room. Like, get a good sleep. Sometimes there's construction outside your hotel room, too. Well, that's fair, too. And sometimes there's somebody banging on a door at 2 a.m too there's just no way um what are your thoughts skipper do you like this idea i i'm a guy that uh uh to not overthink to sleep in your own bed i'd like to go home agreed i would like to go

home too but i don't have kids but, a good convincing start to the game. A Dallas 5-2 win like we saw the other night. No one's going to question this. It will be the right decision. Yeah. But it's got to follow through. Did you happen to watch the first period of that Dallas-Seattle game at all? And I mean, I know it's a little bit later,

but the pace and the way Dallas came out in that game, they ended up falling behind shots, but it was physical and offensive chances, and it was a hockey game. Can Toronto do that tonight? Are they due for one of those games? You would think so. And it won't just be the fact that it's now 3-2 in the series.

It will be how it's 3-2 in the series. That will be more important than just being within one game of tying up the series. In terms of getting the win, sure. Yeah. Oh, yeah. All of a sudden, Florida, you're getting the questions. You're going back home. You're letting this slip away.

You know, all of a sudden, Florida's going. Maybe a bad goal or two on Bobrovsky, and now the seed that you planted in game four is growing. Yeah. I don't have it directly in front of me. The chances of a team coming back from down 3-0 are 3% in NHL history. 3% of teams have come back. 3-1, it's 10%.

Yeah, they've won 3% of the time when they're down 3-0 in a series, yeah. 3% of the time, yeah. And I think it's 10% when you're down 3-1 in the series, which Florida just did. You know, you win tonight, all of a sudden it's 22% when you're down 3-2. This is in the cap era. Teams that have

gone down 3-0 have won 2 times and lost 60. And 3-1 have won 12 times and lost 114 times. You know, it's unlikely. But... Hobbs were one of those 11? Sure are. Like we said off the top of the show, it would help getting more than two goals in one game.

They should do that. We've got a clip on Sheldon Keefe on Austin Matthews. But before we go to it, I just want to revisit you guys in terms of where is Austin's game and how much more does he have to give and what do you... How does he have to look tonight for the Toronto Maple Leafs? You know, the only criticism I really have

is that it hasn't gone in the net for him. He the team in um scoring chances and I know no one cares but I'm just saying like it hasn't been wildly different um you know physical and from a an intensity or a feel like he is all in on a scale of one to ten. Where's your number on Austin Matthews? I mean, how could it be less than 10? This is all or nothing, right? Yeah, see, I'm 6.5, 7. I think he's got so much more to give

from shift to shift to look like a dominant player. You're saying previous to tonight's game? Yes. I just think that there's another gear i'm i'm waiting from austin matthews to dominate yeah yeah i mean that i mean where are you i mean a big reason they're down 3-0 or we're down 3-0 in this series now 3-1 where they're four guys inability to produce and like you said borny he's had scoring chances and Tavares had a ton of scoring chances.

But those chances, it doesn't matter. You've got to finish. And if they're going to turn this around and come back, they need Matthews to be Austin Matthews. Like tonight is a signature game on home ice with a chance to really

propel yourself towards some pretty incredible history. it's the type of game where a super duper star that austin matthews is you know puts you know what on the table and puts a couple in the net and takes over physically and gets to the front of the net and is in the middle of the ice tonight's one of those kind of games and i'm expecting it from him tonight like i really am yeah i thought that's what kip was asking what what I wanted to see tonight. Yeah, that's, no, I feel the same way. It's, you know, these are judgment days for him, for

88, 91, 16. I mean, people, their reputations are made in these moments. I'd fight my mom to win another. Let's see if any mom fighters are out there. I think the perception has always been that even 16, even 88, even 91, but Austin is above them we've had austin in conversations

where it's connor mcdavid and austin right and he's lost that this year for sure no question it's you know i it's funny he's gonna score 40 goals he's got five goals in 10 playoff games and it's tough to not step back from it and be like, this year was a little disappointing for Matthews, you know? So, yeah, I mean, you want to change that. There's still time. But, boy, Hourglass Sand is just about run out here. I thought in the first round he was in front of the net way more.

Like, you still see a couple times here where he's battling with Eckblad. And, you know, but it just felt like a lot of his scoring came right from the middle of the ice and right in the sweet spot like you think of the tips that he had in game four game game three against Tampa like I think the front of the net versus Florida is much less desirable for a forward than it was against Tampa you think of who you're going in there against. Like, you're going in against Ekblad. Radko Gudis is a butcher. Stahl.

Like, it's not as accessible. And I think you kind of have to push through that and fight to the front of the net for him. So, I'm expecting a big one from him tonight. I really am. All right, let's see what Sheldon Keefe is expecting out of Austin Matthews for our first Kippers Clipper of the Day. Obviously, each one of them you feel like is going to go for him.

He's had a lot of opportunities, you know, some really clean, especially early in this series. Not as many on the road, but, you know, obviously that crossbar that he hits early in game three, you feel like that's the one, you know? Not only that it would have set the tone greatly for that game, but for him to start a game that way, and it didn't fall. So, you know, I think the real key for any of our players,

no matter what they're going through, is to just focus on their game, shift to shift, and the little habits and the things that we need them to be doing defensively and all of that and the chances are going to continue to come and we need to score as a team we need to score one more goal than the opposition and that's really where the focus has to be so he's still still going back to the chances aren't falling they love to say fallen they all are like chances aren't falling. They love to say falling. They all are like, oh, the chances aren't falling. But even the players say it.

Do they? They're not falling. Yeah. Which is weird. It's such a basketball term, right? Yeah. They're not going in. And he went back to it again when he was asked about him.

Do you think, how do you refer to it, Sammy, as kind of a signature game or moment for Austin? And not just Austin. Marner as well. Like, those two guys are the two best players in this team. It's a signature moment for both of them. But only one of them, by July 1st, could be asked to be the highest-paid player in the league

on an extension. Yes, which plays into this. And this is the type of game where the highest-paid player in the league shows up. And he's a great player on home ice. Like, he's been dominant his whole career at Scotiabank Arena. You have any issues with the Leafs losing tonight and maybe Austin playing a B game instead of an A game

and him still asking to be the highest-paid player July 1st? Hmm. I think it would be sour until then. And then he signs it and you're just happy he's staying, I think, would be sour until then and then he signs it you're just happy he's staying i think would be probably the the leaf fan feeling yeah i imagine you want him to be a part of the toronto maple leafs like whatever the revisions that happen to this team you sure need him to be a part of it so he like listen people will be incredibly pissed off at him and mitch if he's no good tonight like there's just no. That will be a huge talking point.

That'll be one of the main talking points. But, you know, time heals all wounds. We get to July. Weather's warm. It's Canada Day. He signs a contract. Hard to find another one. People will be happy.

What's that? It's hard to find another Austin Matthews. It's hard to find a legit 40, 50, 60 on a career year season. Yeah, you just never get better, right? You never get better by trading guys like that. There's so many dominoes again, and not to rehash them because we have, but who's resigning him is the one that I look at.

But hey, big win tonight, and you delay that one. Honestly, Kipper, you're smiling like we shouldn't be talking about it. Well, no, no. We should be talking about it. This is a huge, again, swing moment. I know, but I'm not sure, like, now's the time to start deep diving the what ifs. No, but, like, the way you mentioned it and kind of, like, your tone, it's like it's not an unfair thing to be talking about at this point.

If they lose tonight, it's really no different than them getting swept in terms of what happens. It's funny, though, how we do this, how you rework it all and you go, okay, what was the Tampa series? It was a 2-1 at one point? The Leafs made it 2-1. They scored uh it was a 2-1 at one point or it was the least made it 2-1 and that it was uh they had the they scored late to make it 2-1 and then they had to come back to make it 3-1 right you know like at those points you're saying well this is defining for matthews can he

be here and it's like he does and he scores and he does in the next game and it's like you know they're all there's just playoffs you know i think you zoom out in the playoffs and say you know how do you perform yeah for sure and listen we know where the dominoes will will start falling if they do find a way to lose this series still and yeah and matthew signing wouldn't be the first two or three dominoes to fall right yeah you think they would probably make some changes before he would commit to being it's great you can't even think about austin matthews and and where he is july 1st without knowing where the pecking order stands listen keith jones just got hired president of the flyers i mean oh baby this is your time kippy this is your time, Kippy. This is your time. Everything goes sideways with the Leafs. You bring in a broadcaster, a former... Copycat league. A little bit of an abrasive style of play, you know.

Copycat league, baby. Blue and white. Kippy. If I'm going, you guys are coming with me. Which one of you will be assistant GM? Not me. Ooh, I'll take it. Not me.

Sammy. Yes? I'll be the... Sammy's new Carlton. Yeah, I was going to say. No, no, no, no. We create a new mascot for him. You think so?

A brand new Sammy. I think, you know, that Carlton could use a little, you know, look a little tougher. A little 2023 reimagining? Yeah, a little tougher. I'll be the mascot coordinator. We can figure something out. Masky coordinator.

Full-time salary. You guys want to stick with Sheldon Keefe? You want to bounce a Paul Maurice? I'm going to call Josh. Is Paul a little calmer on these clips? Do we, is there a little bit more structure in where he's going with these comments, Sammy? I've not heard them yet.

Him on the offense in the series is pretty interesting, if you want to play that. All right, let's go there, because we are talking about the lack of offense out of the Leafs. If you can skate, you can defend. Both teams can skate, both teams defend. And the guys on either team that wouldn't be considered fast are really smart.

So pick one of Tavares, O'Reilly, and Reinhardt. Phenomenal defensive IQs, right? All can kill penalties if they need to. So smart guys, but the fast guys, you can check. Really funny to blatantly call out guys as not great skaters, which is fine. Right. I got no problem with it. No, I don't think he meant, you know, it's not a knock against being great skaters.

It's a knock of not being fast. Yeah. Which you're right. Inarguable. Right. Yeah. There's some really strong skaters like Peter Zezel. I mean, I kind of grew up with Peter.

And not fast, not pretty, but try to knock him off his skates when he's on the right side of the puck off a face-off or in the zones. It's like he's as good as anybody when he's standing there on the right spot. Right. As with these guys. Yeah. All right. All right. All right.

We mentioned Joshua Cloak from The Athletic, Leaf writer. It's a bit of a scene setter. Josh, thanks for joining us. How are you? Not bad. What's the mood over there today, guys? Oh, Sammy's a toilet seat. Up and down and up and down and up and up today.

Up. Hopeful. I would say. How about, how about the toilet seats down there at the rink? Yeah. I mean, it's,

it's funny. Like you kind of think going into game four, like boy, a sweep would be really bad. And then the more you think about it like wouldn't losing on home ice kind of be even worse like that's the up and down where i'm at right now where are you guys at with that kind of idea yeah i mean i just think getting swept is such a bad look it's obviously not awesome to lose tonight it's not that different but um you know i i think

it's a positive to not have been the first team eliminated in the second round. Are they going to go at tonight, you think, with the same lineup as they did in game four? Yeah, the same lineup for sure. I mean, Matt and I, you know, isn't ready. We don't know if he'll be ready, you know, towards the end of the series. If they get that far, my understanding is he's progressing pretty well, which is good. But yeah, same lineup, including Joseph Wall and Goal. I guess the question I have is, like, if you're going to go with the same lineup, like you mentioned going at the game, are you going to go at the game

with the same kind of, you know, focus on getting things defensively sound and just playing kind of a smart responsible boring game as they did in in game four or are you just going to try and you know use the the crowd to your advantage and really play that that you know style of hockey that i think the leafs at their best can kind of utilize um i think that's the question i have going into it because like you're still waiting for for matthews to really break out you're still really for Matthews to really break out. You're still really waiting for Marner to break out if those guys do. You kind of want to just roll with that and give them more runway. So it'll be interesting to see because, again, game four,

they looked pretty – it was a pretty boring game, but the result is the only thing that matters, right? Yeah. Josh, we talked at the beginning of the show about the Leafs spending the night at the hotel last night and trying to create a feeling of road warriors and bringing that game four back into the Scotiabank arena. And I think that's kind of maybe the answer of what kind of look.

I don't think that they want to factor in the crowd. I think they want to seamlessly take game four and start it with game five. Why else do you ask the guys to spend the night in a hotel room? And I think those two days, like there were two days off between games three and four, and you would think that that wouldn't really work for a team because that's more time to stew.

But, you know, I had a few conversations with um about the benefits of just kind you know being together and and regrouping and and like you know you talk about setting a scene like literally it was tough to to walk up and down you know east fort lauderdale boulevard and not see players together right whether it's just going out for a walk or whether it's hanging out on the beach, and as they should. Like, I think that kind of camaraderie, and I'm not saying the Leafs would do this, but it prevents any pointing of fingers. It keeps everybody kind of united on this goal of theirs, which is to kind of pull off the near impossible.

So I think they probably looked at what happened between games three and four and said we came away from that with a, you know, a pretty good, I guess, mentality. And we want to just continue that and good on them for recognizing the kind of moment. Right. Yeah. Cloak yesterday, you had an article on Willie Nylander in kind of what he's meant to the team

in this series, including the, the intro talking about him, walking shirtless down the, the, the, the Boulevard there, which is the most unsurprising Nylander thing ever. Tell us a little bit about his demeanor and what you've thought of his play in round one. Like I was out for kind of, I'm a bit of an early riser. I mean, nine 30, isn't that early, but on game days, it can be, I was out for, for a walk, picking up some stuff for the day. And, you know, I kind of looked and I said, well, you know, who is that, you know, large man with this, you know, blonde flowing mane with, you know, tarps off. And I'm like, you get a few paces closer. I'm like, well, of course, that's William Nylander.

Right. He just looked he just looked completely at home. And like I meant to convey this. He wasn't walking by the beach. He was strutting like his it looked like he was going to throw his back it was arched so far back like this was a man that you know as confident as could be and i just kind of thought to myself like and like we know william nylander we know the kind of carefree william nylander we know the one that gets heat

for not back checking but i think we also know the one that is probably, you know, maybe the most confident player on the team. And that's the guy that I saw. And then you talk to teammates about him. And, you know, that kind of confidence rubs off on other teammates. Like Callie Yarncroft said as much. Like if your top guys are backcheck checking and if your top guys aren't phased by the moment that has a real positive effect so it was just interesting to me to see

a guy that you know from the moment he woke up it appeared was like i i'm not gonna let this series get away from me and i think the leafs could certainly use more of that right yeah the one that stood out for me uh josh was uh you're down three nothing and you stare right at the media and you're like yeah let's just have some fun tonight yeah right and you know wild you know 80 of the media are going all right you lose tonight yeah and you're giving me you're down three nothing and all you can think about is going out and having fun. I am going to bury you. So I think he's been around long enough to know that if he's throwing that out, there was the potential of that coming back to him.

And yet it speaks to that confidence that you're talking about, that he can go out there and have a good game, if not a great game. Well, the Leafs to me, think they at least in public at least when the cameras are on I think they need a little more of that like you know after they go down 3-0 I started calling some players from that you know 0-10 Flyers team and that 14 Kings team and they said that that the key for them to come back from 3-0 was just trying to plant little seeds of doubt in the opposition. And a lot of that started with the coach. A lot of that started with Daryl Sutter in 2014.

And you can have your qualms with Sutter for sure. But he wasn't going down easily. And he was going to do everything he could to put pressure on the opposition. And we haven't seen a lot of that from the Leafs particularly from from Sheldon Keefe and like Bourne you know Keefe as as well as anybody like maybe that's not in his makeup but it certainly is in William Nylander's makeup to kind of again have his chest out a little bit and just kind of show the Panthers that like regardless of of you know where the series is at we're not going to let you think that we can be walked over and I think Sheldon

Keefe could probably stand to do a little bit more of that he's looked I don't know if defeated is the right word but he's looked something close to that at times at least when the cameras are on and that's all we can see. And I think that's probably a little bit concerning. And I think if they do, if the Leafs do go, if they do win tonight, I think Keith has every opportunity here to really dig that seed of doubt even further in the Panthers, if you know what I mean. Yeah. Yeah.

And you know, what's interesting is I look at this Leafs team through four games of the second round. Then I go, you know, who's really played well for them. And, you know, like there's a you go through the best players, you go through the decor, you know, a couple of good defensemen in there maybe. But like, you know, no one really has been great. Do you think that's a positive sign for the Leafs that you know that there's more to get from a lot of these guys? Or do you think it's concerning that through four none of them have really popped I I do think it's a little bit concerning because I mean how long do you have to wait like those were those were some of the

first comments I got in that that William Nylander story like you know the whole headline is he's flipped the switch and you know people are asking well why did it take him until game four to flip the switch and he's had a good not great series but i think that is a little bit of cause for concern like the whole regular season the whole mantra they kept repeating this leafs team kept repeating was everything we do is to prepare good habits for the playoffs because they know they're going to be in the playoffs they know they want to go deep they know that's when they're going to be in the playoffs. They know they want to go deep. They know that's when they're going to be judged. Like, I guess, why is it taken this long for, you know, the likes of Austin Matthews to really pop?

And he's been good, but, you know, good isn't the expectation. So, sure, like, you know, Marner, Matthews, Tavares in particular, they could all pop tonight. And, again, you can go back to Florida, creating a little bit more of that doubt but i do think it's concerning that we're four games in and you're asking the question like why haven't players that are paid to be great being you know why haven't they played great we're talking to joshua cloak leaf writer with the athletic are uh are you okay with sheldon's demeanor when it comes to maybe challenging these guys

for more goals? Would you have expected him to publicly challenge more? Has he said the right things? I mean, the series is still alive. He must be doing something right. This is a really tough one for me because, again, I've had conversations with a lot of other people about this.

Maybe that's not in sheldon's demeanor right and and if you if you fake it if you're if you're tough in public and you criticize your guys and you call out your guys like if that's not who you are people can sniff out that inauthenticity right away um so if if that's not who he is, then don't do it. But I do think it was after, what was it, game two or three, and he's saying Mitch Marner is trying out there. This isn't the league where you get points for trying. I think we could stand to see Sheldon Keefe kind of upping the ante a little bit.

I think a lot of Leafs fans would respond to a little bit more emotion, a little bit more anger. But again, like, Bourne, you know him well. Like, is that in his character? You know, I find him emotional, like, and really tough for him to hide how he really feels in general. But if you give him a few minutes to get past that, he's pretty composed and thoughtful.

So no, it's not, he's never been a guy to go in there, very rarely go in there and flip tables. So I know what you mean about authenticity. It is important. You know, they do have some guys that they're going to be relying on who haven't been through this before. And one of them is Joseph Wool.

You know, big spot for him tonight. You've had some chances to talk to him, I'm sure, as the rest of the media have there. Unique guy that we don't really know well. What are your thoughts on how he's handled him so far in this series? I mean, it's pretty remarkable that, like, not long ago, I'm talking like two and a half years ago, we were questioning whether Joseph Wall would even have a future

as an NHL goaltender. And now you could conceivably foresee a case where the Leafs We were questioning whether Joseph Wall would even have a future as an NHL goaltender. And now you could conceivably foresee a case where the Leafs keep running with him throughout the playoffs because we don't really know how serious Samsonov's injury is. I think what really sticks out to me about Joe Wall is just how he isn't phased by anything. He just has this remarkably composed demeanor and a seriousness to him that, you know, you wouldn't expect from a 24-year-old, essentially, you know, a rookie.

I mean, I'll tell you a very quick story about Joseph Wall that I think illustrates a lot of who he is. He was in that last or one of the last regular season games in Tampa and he gets the start um and Scotty Bowman who lives you know just outside Tampa he's at most um lightning games as I understand anyway I'm sitting beside him in the press box and he starts kind of asking he's like who who is this goalie I don't know a lot about him I'm like well he's a you know he's a very young goalie, Joseph Wall. And he just says out loud, he's like, oh, he's fast. Wow, he's so fast.

And he's like, he looks like an NHL goalie. And then two days later, I thought to myself, oh, that's really nice. Like, what a thing to say. And two days later, I kind of run into Joseph in the Leafs dressing room. I'm like, hey, do you want your tires pumped? I heard something about you. Do you want your tires pumped? And he looked me dead in the eyes. He room like hey do you want your your tires pumped I heard something about you do you want your tires pumped and he looked me dead in the eyes he's like no I do not and he started to walk away and I just and I I kind of had to to to to run him down after me like no I kind of want to tell you this story but the point is is like he's not you know

like we all know young players sometimes sometimes they get ahead of themselves. Sometimes they need to have their egos boosted. I don't think that's where Joe Wall is at. I think, you know, he is just his composure on and off the ice, I think is what stands out the most to the Leafs in terms of, you know, his development. So I think he's not going to be phased, you know, coming back home and playing in another must-win game.

One more for me on Joseph Wall, and I'll tie it back into Sheldon Keefe. And the other day, Sheldon saying that they really have a ton of confidence in Joseph Wall. We know that. And then Sheldon also said, I don't want people to read into this and think that I'm putting down our other goalies, right? It's not a reflection on Murray or Samsonov, but we really like them. But come on, Joshua, isn't it really a reflection of your two goalies?

How is it not? He can say that, but how is it not? And's the you know he can say that but how is it not and like this is a little bit of how the sausage is made but i was the one that asked keith that question like did you give any are you giving any thought to starting matt murray which i thought was a completely fair question and he just said no and you could just feel a pin drop in the press conference room like wow because this is the guy that you acquired because of his two stanley cups because you would think that in these kind of games you want a guy that has been there so it's hard for me now yes he kind of clarified his comments

afterwards and you know sometimes you don't always get it right in the press conference i'll be the first one to say that as well i've asked some some, you know, boneheaded questions, but it just, how is it not a little bit of an indictment of, of what they think about Murray's play like this year? Right. I mean, yes, it is, it is, you know, it seems like it was an attempt to pump Joe Wall's tires, but I think it's, it's concerning to me because you could get in a spot where Joe Wall could get injured, and then you have to go with the guy

that you've really kind of left out in the wind, right? So it's kind of concerning. I don't know. I'm still wondering if Matt Murray is going to be back next year, if they're going to find room for him. I don't know because it doesn't seem like he's in the plans. If he was, then, you know, wouldn't he be starting tonight? Like, am I getting too far ahead of myself?

No. I don't know. I don't think it didn't really – look, I'll just say this. It felt like an indictment of where they're at with Murray, and it felt like it was hard not to read into the fact that they see Joe Wall as their guy moving forward, not just in this series, not just

through the rest of the playoffs, but even into next year too. We'll start with the first 20 minutes tonight. That's right. 20 at a time. Josh, really appreciate your time. Excellent stuff. Thanks for joining us. Yeah, anytime boys. Enjoy the game. Thanks, really appreciate your time. Excellent stuff. Thanks for joining us. Yeah, anytime, boys.

Enjoy the game. Thanks so much. You too. Leaf writer for the athletic. Yeah. Yeah. We'll only watch and witness and make judgments after it's all said and done. Yeah. all said and done yeah but right now it seems like sheldon's got enough juice right now to not change the flow i don't know what happens in the first five or ten minutes and

and where his demeanor is or his body language on the bench but certainly he's you can't argue that he has not said the right things up until this point after being down three nothing wool or keith sorry keith yeah what wools i like that he's a bit of an oddball like i don't know if he's an odd guy at all but like i think it's great that he's just different from other people and says no i don't want my tires pumped and really not uncommon for goalies right just strange people they're're just weird they are they've historically been weird and it's a weird position and they're on the team and they're not really on the team and they're like a field goal kicker where you could actually do your job maybe in a suit they're not really on

the team that's funny but to me the job is a little bit like someone being like a psychic or something and you're like i promise that person's a little different like that is not a normal line of work to enter think about what it is like who have you guys ever gone in there i mean you know like everyone else i played it four times and as a minor hockey kid was like this out of curiosity well i i went in with him i went in with within the last year when i our goalie pulled his groin and the game was going to end. How's your five hole at six foot six? I don't know how anyone. It's like a bridge.

I don't know how anyone would volunteer to do that. It's horrible. You have to be a little different to do that. Sit there for a while. Stand around and wait to get embarrassed. You talk to yourself. You have conversations. And they're like, yeah, every two minutes someone's going to down try to dunk on you i got lit up no oh yeah oh wow

made a couple saves on a good one on a deflection but i think i let in seven it's hard must look like gumby with holy pads i look a lot like pokey i was gonna say mike dunham ever mike dunham that's what i look like in there um all right sammy you got some playoff picks for us yeah let's do that uh what do i got here here we go it's time for playoff picks presented by bet 365 visit the app for the latest odds um talk about this all the time in this in this spot but this is an excellent excellent night for the happiness hedge to To bet on Florida. To bet on Florida. I didn't bet on them in game four. I sprinkled a little bit on them during the third period

when I realized I actually cared. Yeah, I did. When they were 3-1 in the third period, I put a little bit on them because I actually realized that I didn't care and I didn't want them to lose. So anyways, it was fine. A little bit of happiness. But tonight they're plus 150,

which is a pretty juicy number for a single game bet. And depends on how much you want to bet on that. You can win some money. It's a nice one. So Panthers plus 150 tonight. And I cooked this one up. It's a same game parlay. Like to call it the maximum pain parlay.

For the Leafs fans. For the Leafs. For the Leafs fans. Maximum pain parlay. A Sam Bennett goal. Ouch. Paired with a Panthers overtime win. Pays 25 to 1.

So it's a long shot, but if you really want to guard yourself. 10 bucks will pay you $250. Yeah, so you want to guard yourself against maximum pain, there it is for you. I am wondering from a Florida perspective on how aggressive they want to come out. I was going to ask you about that. I do believe that there is a different tone

out of the Edmonton-Vegas series that will actually bleed into Toronto and Florida. What do you mean? I mean, they're going gonna readjust the standards i think uh that series no question it had gotten out of hand to the point where now the the league has to step in and suspend two players and more on that later and that they've also seen some stuff out of philadelphia or florida and toronto including the late stuff again bennett bennett charlie was it on the ground kachuk and there might be a an early chance to send messages that we're we're gonna and maybe that'll play into the leafs hands

listen a high penalty game would be fine for the leafers um it was not it was mccabe that was on the ice that was on the ice that bennett was teeing off on you're allowed to punch somebody in the face with your gloves on after the whistle yeah that's fine but as soon as the gloves come off then it's a game misconduct as opposed to not a game misconduct well you know what's funny is i had someone write me and be like hey he got a game misconduct like on the score sheet bennett did at the time yeah he deserved it but in the five minutes, that's supposed to be an auto suspension. He, he's, he's Mr. Maybe he just rescinded that.

His nickname should be Wirecross. He's a psycho. Wouldn't want to play hockey against him. So it was on the game sheet and then it was off the game sheet? The screenshot the person sent me, it was on the game sheet. Yeah. So we'll look into that more. That was a passing comment.

Didn't mean to talk about that. So I'll look into that more. Yeah. No idea anything about that. So the favorite now to win the Cup is Carolina. Obviously, they're the first team to win. That switches every night. Yeah, I know.

Well, they're through to the conference final. We talk about different things every day, so I... They should be. Do you feel like they're getting a little bit... They'll sit idle for how long? A while. Well, not maybe. Depends.

Yeah, they're waiting on the winner of Leafs-Cats, so they won't start this one, no? It could be over a week if there's three more games but let's just say saturday it ends sorry not tonight sunday you're still would they start it before that others no they won't no i don't think that they would they're looking maybe on one night maybe on uh one night can svetlakov's acl heal in a week? That'd be nice for them. What an impressive thing they did. They took out the Devils in five games.

They're just a unit. I don't really identify anyone on that team, but they just play hard. I got a couple of quick other things for you. You can bet on the conference exact forecast, so whatever's going to happen. Dallas Stars to win over the Oilers, which was the juiciest one that I could see in the Western Conference, was plus 380.

And the last thing I have is another Leafs thing for you. You can bet when the series is going to end. And game six is plus 225. Obviously tonight's plus 150, the same as the Panthers. So you're betting on a Leafs win, Panthers win. Yeah. Next two. Game seven is more favored than,

like it's the shorter odds for game seven than it is for game six if the Leafs get past tonight so that tells you what the books think of what's going to happen so there you go uh that was playoff picks presented by bet 365 visit the apps for the latest odds in the second hour ken hitchcock the fourth winningest coach in NHL history, will join us. But before that, after the break, Doug McClain, former NHL president, GM, head coach, and the leader of Off the Rails Friday. Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee, you are listening to Real Kipper and Bourne. covering the blue jays from an analytical perspective jay's talk plus with blake murphy be sure to subscribe and download jay's talk on apple spotify or wherever you get your podcasts this is real kipper and born on sportsnet 590, the van. All right, let's go straight to the goods here.

Doug McClain, no longer from sunny Florida. Oh. But where real people go. P.E.I. I thought he was coming in studio for a minute. You ready to come back in studio, Doug McClain? You're kidding or what?

You're retired. The last day I walked out of that place, oh my god. The only thing I miss, the only thing I miss about going to the studio is I don't get to go to the Ritz-Carlton for a beer after or a glass of wine. The only thing I miss about going to the studio is I don't get to go to the Ritz Carlton for a beer after or a glass of wine. The only thing

I miss. Me and Berkey, Berkey and I sitting at the bar at the Ritz telling each other how smart we are. You both have plenty of time to do that now. Jeez. Yeesh.

I can say that. They're my friends that's fair that's hey matt did the premier let you back into pei last time i think you might add some trouble yeah the covid kept us out for a couple you know for one year and maybe almost a second year we got in but you know we had to delay and work through it but finally we get in as i said to the premier here denny king when he when he wouldn't let us in i phoned and left a message at his office i said because the conservatives had asked me to run for the leadership of the conservative party here a couple years before he became premier i said i said i said to his secretary, tell Danny that if it wasn't for me turning the job down,

he wouldn't even be the Premier. Nice. He said, aren't you glad you didn't get it? So anyway, Danny's a good guy. But anyway, other than that, we're happy to be here. Where are you? A lot's happened in the last week,

including the Leafs digging a really big hole here. 0-3. They got their win in game four. Where are you? Are you a believer here? It's really tough to be a believer when you're down 3-0. I know that. But I watched the game the other day and I, I was,

I was really impressed with how they played. I mean, it was like born had done videos on how a playoff game has to be played with his articles. You know, it was like, it was textbook how they play. I thought they played great. And you know what typified the game?

The last 20 seconds when you watched Ryan O'Reilly battle to get the puck out into the neutral zone and how hard he battled and played. I thought they played a hell of a game. Little Grant, I was really impressed with his game. For a guy that's been out of the lineup a lot, in and out, I thought he had a strong game. Even Giordano battled like crazy.

So impressive. Marner was the star. The one guy that hasn't played well enough yet for me is Austin Matthews. And tonight, can this be Austin Matthews' biggest game of the playoffs? No, maybe not the playoffs, but this series. They need him to be the horse he's been all year.

Look, if they win tonight, you go back to game six and Florida is feeling the heat because they know they're coming back to Toronto for game seven. So this is a big game, and they're capable of winning the game. I think they are. Doug, what do you make of this Florida team? The first couple games looked a lot different than they did down in Florida,

like really fast transition hockey, a lot of chances both ways. Things tightened up in games three and four, but do you believe this is a much better team than the regular season record would indicate? You know, they've been a good team for a couple of years, and they had the devastating end last year, which rocked the franchise, you know, shocked the franchise that they were where they were, and then rocked them at the end of the year when they fell apart as easy as they did.

You know, the Tuchuk acquisition has changed the makeup of the team. Maybe the old man called them soft. You know, Keith, I don't know. Look, they played hard. They played loose. They had nothing to lose. You come off a series when you beat Boston four games, the three come back to 3-1.

You're on a high. And is it coaching? No, it's you've got energy. You've got your guys going through a wall. You've got confidence. And you know what? I think their confidence will be a little rocked after that game last night. They didn't play great last year or last game.

They did not play great. Toronto played real well. Florida didn't play nearly as well. So, yeah, they've been on a high mentally more than they've been on a high, you know, playing fast and all the things we always talk about. And Bobrowski stood on his head. They've got to get to this guy big time. And you know what?

We haven't seen Bobrowski fall off yet. It happens a lot that he carries a team and then he lets them down. Is he going to do it this time? That is going to be the big question tonight. Does he keep his play? But they've still got to get to him. Look at Nylander's goal. Those are the type of goals you've got to play in the playoffs, guys.

You've got to be dirty, down and dirty at the paint. Mac, I'm not going to date you, but you've watched a lot of hockey over the years in different eras. Is it easier today in this era with the

rule changes the last 15 years, the salary cap, the imbalance of lineups, to come back 3-0 in this era than it has been in other eras? I don't think it matters. I mean, look, it's almost an impossibility at the NHL level to come back in a series like this. I know it's happened three times or whatever. It's really hard.

I don't care what era it is. You're coming back from a 3-0 deficit. Teams are too good. They're too well coached to just fall apart. So it'll be a monumental task, but the Leafs are capable of winning three games, four games in a row. They really are. They've done it all year. They're capable of doing that, and that's the mentality I'd go in with.

Plus, they got game breakers. They were not very good against Tampa guys, and you know that, in three or four games. Five minutes in one game, they took control of the game and won. Eight minutes left in one game, they're down 4-1. They come back and won. I mean, they've got game breakers that can turn a game around they just need them going tonight but what do you make of the fact that it's so i don't know we don't see that out of them those

pushes you're talking about like i remember they did it against columbus in the bubble too they came back from down three nothing with about five minutes left or something like they're able to turn that on why can't we get that when the puck drops to start the hockey game? You know what? You get it from the pluggers. You get it from the grinders. You don't get it from your superstars all the time because they play a skilled style game

and they want to do it with finesse and that's what makes chuck such a interesting player this time of year because yes he's skilled we all know that but he he plays hard and he battles and like i watched burke off the other night a deciding end of the year game and he looked like I did in the men's league. Slow, wadding. Yeah, you said that too, man. Yeah. He drove me crazy.

I mean, this is your horse. And if he doesn't, if he keeps his pace at what he played last game, he's an important player for the Leafs. He was not good, to say the least. Anyway. Just want to go back to you with your comments on Austin and maybe the one thing that you think that

still might be missing, Mac, when you watch him, is it the first three steps in his stride? Is it the shot that seems off? Is there an edge you're still looking for? What's the one thing that Austin still needs to hit to make people believe again he's the second best player in the world? You know, I don't think it's his shot.

And I just think that is his confidence rattled a little bit? I don't think it should be. I don't think there's anything there other than he's being ferociously checked. And it's tough at playoff time. I remember, you know, when I was coaching and we're playing against Lemieux and Jager, and I've told you this before, our goal every game was to make them hate hockey. The Florida Panthers' style is to make Austin really hate hockey. And you know what? They're putting big-time pressure on him.

He's got to fight through it, and he's skilled enough that he can. And the shot, I mean, he's got just a – I mean, the talent this kid has. So he's got to find another gear tonight. He really does. I thought Mitch Marner found it the other night. I was so proud of that kid, the way that kid played the other night and how hard he played. He was going to be on

tonight, this kid. He was not going to be denied for sure, the way he played. That's what they've got to get at. Even Nylander was better. I think that Matthews has got to go hard for them tonight. This is big for Austin Matthews. It really is.

What's your comfort level with old Joseph Wall taking a turn in that? New. Not old. Yeah, old new Joseph Wall. Well, it reminds me when Sawchuck replaced Bauer. You guys forget about that. Yeah, I do forget. Tell us about it.

I mean, look, I'm watching this kid. I'm sitting there waiting to start, and he's going, and I'm thinking, are you kidding me? The Toronto Maple Leafs, with all the hype and talk and Murray and Samson, they're going with their number three kid who has not played one playoffs game. I mean, I know it's one thing to play Jack Campbell,

who's played a handful, but they're going with a kid who's been a Marley and he's been, and you know what? He was a difference maker in that game, boys. He calmed the, the rookie in goal calmed the team down. He gave them confidence. It was unbelievable to watch how he, when he made a stop, how calm he was with the puck, how he moved the puck. I thought he was a calming influence, not a basket case,

which most young goaltenders would be. He was phenomenal, guys. Not showstopper saves, just really solid and really confident. They weren't going to beat him, so it'll be fun to watch him tonight. Hey, Mac, the decision by, I guess, Kyle Dubas was to put the guys at home in the hotel last night, something that you guys experienced over your years of coaching, decisions to keep teams away from the distractions at home. How many times did you do it?

Are the Leafs overthinking this thing or right decision? I think it's the right decision. We did it, you know, for a couple of years in Florida. I mean, every playoff, we basically moved into the Harbor Beach Marriott. And, you know, I thought it was really good. We'd have that, you know, we'd be back and forth at home. But, I mean, we'd go there the night before. We'd have a meeting at 8 o'clock at night at the hotel

and have a good chat and talk about the game, hockey-style meeting. And I always thought it was good. I really did. And that seven- or eight-week run that we had, I mean, we were away a ton. And the team, I thought, really grew from it. You know, we'd have great video sessions at the hotel. We'd have lots of chats about the teams we were playing. I thought it was really healthy. I really did.

Doug, Luke Shen's been really, really good for this Leafs team, like surprisingly so. Are you surprised at how effective he's been for them? When they acquired Luke Shen, I thought to myself, he can't turn anymore. He can't do a Mohawk turn. I'm thinking, how the hell is he going to, and you know what, what's he going to offer,

two five-on-five goals against him or something crazy? He's looked really, you know what, you know why? Because this time this year, it's all about the size of your heart. And this guy, there's never been anybody deny how much of a battler Luke Shin has been, especially in the latter stages of career. He's been a team leader on teams he's been. To me, he's been better than McKay. He's been better than Gustafson or any of the other pickups.

This is a guy that's made a really solid pairing, and he's been really, really good. And you know what? I think it's all about the size of your heart right now. I mean, it really means a lot. And that's what the Panthers have been relying on, boys. They've been playing really hard. We're talking to Doug McLean, former NHL president, GM, and head coach. Just a few topics around the league.

Mac, Keith Jones goes in as a president of a president of hockey operations in Philadelphia. What, first of all, your thoughts on Jonesy and what should he be focused on early? What, what, and what you've been a president.

What's the first piece of advice you would give a guy like that? Well, first of all, I think it was a really good choice. He's got a history with the flyers but on the outside not within the within the confines of the uh you know the the office suites he's been a broadcaster for them he's played for them a little bit late in his career i i just think he's a real calming influence for an organization that's been all over the map the last few years

i think that the fan base will be will be fair with he and Breer to start because they're popular guys. I like his background. I like how he played as a player. I remember him at Washington Capitals when I was assistant coach there. I mean, Jones has always been a really good person. So I think that's where it starts, a good person and a guy that the players and your staff can trust what what he says he means and i think i think it all starts with that and i think

he's got a chance to do an excellent job and they've got a you know maybe tortorella will now move from the press box and get him back down on the bench that will be a start he likes to observe up there i mean they they need somebody that can handle him. And in my mind, Jones, he can handle Tortorella for fun. And he's going to have to do that a few times. So you think the Flyers will make some aggressive moves now to show fans they're different? I know this is the whole thing, right? Kind of remaking the image of the team, not just the team on the ice? Well, there's been so much second guessing and, you know,

almost hatred in the, in the area with respect to the Flyers. They've been, you know, they've been laughed at by their fan base. One of the best fan bases in the, in the national hockey league. And they owe their fans something here. I don't know that they're going to go crazy. You know, I don't really know their cap situation. But, you know, I think they'll methodically go about it. Look, that's the greatest thing when you're new to a job.

You've got time. You've got – Greer's got time. Jonesy's got time. And they don't – they shouldn't race into let's do Kessel and let's bring Fennel Finn and let's build this championship team in week one. I think they'll take their time, you know. All right. Anything else on your mind like just picture you and berkey now at the bar at the ritz right now what would be on your mind what would you guys be talking about right now well i i was talking to jeff remmer that and chris cutford jumps on the line you know the

famous broadcaster cutford yeah we know he jumps on the line hey hey m, the famous broadcaster Cuthbert. Yeah, we know him. He jumps on the line. Hey, hey, McClain, you wrote a book. You're the first guy to write a book who hasn't read one. That's a line. That's a good line. Oh, I thought it was a great line, except now I don't know if Chris Cuthbert is aware that I have my master's in educational psychology from the University of Western Ontario. And he's got grade 12 from Guelph High School. So it's really, I'm not sure he should be anyway.

He was chirping me pretty good. And at the end, we had a pretty good laugh. But I told Jill that and she said, who is this jerk? I said, no, Jill, he's a good guy. Leave him alone. He's a good guy. Anyway, he and Rimmer had a great laugh over it. Oh, we're having a good laugh over it.

That's a good line. Seriously, what is going on? Just a minute. I bought a soccer team in some place in Wales for the price that you pay for a junior B team in Canada. And then he's going to pay a billion dollars for the Ottawa center. I said, Deadpool, I said, are you kidding? He's going to pay a billion dollars for that team.

That franchise. We talked to her in this show a couple of weeks ago. And then I read last night. Yeah, you did. And then I read last night. Yeah, I did. And now I read he's out of the deal. What's that all about? Like, seriously. You go from buying your Junior B soccer team,

and then you're going to offer a billion, and now you're out. What is that all about? I don't get it. Did maybe he realize that he was overpaying at a billion by a few hundred million? Yeah, maybe. Seems like the likely case. Disappointing. Disappointing, you know?

Are you disappointed? Can you still watch his movies? That's what I want to know. I've never watched one yet, but I really like the guy. I watched his soccer show when they were over in Wexstrom. I watched that show. Jill and I watched it on Netflix or something this year, and it was great. But listen, this is big boy

hockey, and this is a big boy money. And for this to fall apart is mind-boggling to me. But anyway, we'll see. I think Jill would lead. Boo-boo Gary-ock is now probably going to tie his wagon to Snoop Dogg, I would think.

I don't know. I don't know. I know one thing for sure. If Ryan knocked on your door in PEI, Jill would leave you in a heartbeat. Doug would be right there selling real estate. There's no denying that. He really

pisses me off because he's such a nice guy and good looking. He really pisses me off. We're all pissed off at him for that. You just can't be that good looking and that nicer guy. Anyway. I'm disappointed for Ottawa. Thanks for

taking it right off the cliff at the end of the show. We really appreciate it. You didn't disappoint us. Thanks for having me, guys. I really appreciate it. All right. Doug McClain from PEI. All right.

You got anything on Ryan Reynolds or Chris Cuthbert? I think the price got too high. And Chris Cuthbert, that's a hilarious line. Can I say that just a quick appreciation at how damn good Cuthbert and Simpson are at their job? Yeah. That's an absolute treat. Every night we watch the game.

You know, I love Cuthbert. And he's been the call some massive moments, you know, Crosby's goal. But to have him here in Sportsnet, not to do a PSA, love man with you buddy uh ryan reynolds group was looking for a 30-day exclusive window to purchase some real estate and was not given that so they uh said we out oh details thank you brando yeah no comment are you sure this this guy's bidding on the team himself here. Are you the face of the Snoop Dogg group?

Ken Hitchcock. Are you in the Nico group? Our next guest, Ken Hitchcock, the fourth winningest coach in NHL history. No comment, Ken. Whoop-a! I'm just an observer from afar. Oh. I don't know what you like, man.

I don't know anything about you. I heard some things. Yes. Johnny, tight lips. All right, let's go to break. You got any more picks or anything? No, let's hit the break. Is that over?

That's all. We're done. That's all. Hit the break. Okay, we're going to take a quick break. The fourth winningest coach in nhl history will join us uh and we'll get his thoughts on uh paul maurice he's coached against him of a few times we'll get his thoughts on what sheldon needs to do tonight and possibly

two more games yeah ken hitchcock after the break you're watching and listening to real kipper and born more leaves more raptors more blue jays the fan morning show with alish forfar and justin cuthbert subscribe and download the show on apple spotify or wherever you get your podcasts this is real kipper and born on sportsnet 590 the van let's welcome in the fourth winningest coach in NHL history. Almost 900 wins. Now doing some work consulting with the St. Louis Blues, but we know he is watching and watching very closely

for no other reason than the sheer love of the game. Ken, how are you? I'm well, Kipper. How are things there in Toronto? A little better, but I'm not sure how much better, but maybe that's what you can tell us. You've been around the game a long time, and I'm sure you found yourselves in tough predicaments in the playoffs,

but what is the difference? Can you sum up the difference between being down 3-0 and then being down 3-1, or are they quite similar? They're not similar you know like 3-1 when you go from 3-0 to 3-1 you feel like you've got a little bit of momentum when you're sitting at 3-0 you're as nervous as the team is that's trying to close you out like everybody says the pressure's off us and and all that stuff that's a bunch of bs like like i when you're down three like the feeling of getting swept is such it's a pit in your stomach and you want to try to avoid that but i think the way toronto played the game

would give them a lot of confidence like they it a close game, but Toronto checked like crazy. They took away the middle of the rink. There were no second or third opportunities. I thought they played a hell of a hockey game, Kip. I'm curious to get your thoughts on how much a team would make systems changes as the series progresses. I just look at the Leafs. Game one, there's a lot of pinching from Florida's D down the wall.

After the next game, they're going off the glass and stretching it. Like, how much can you ask your team to play differently from game to game and still have success? I think quite a bit. Not so much in the X's and O's, more in the tactics. So what I mean by that is that simple is smart when it gets to the playoffs. And whoever plays the simple, smart game and advances the puck

usually ends up winning the hockey game. I thought Toronto, at the start of this series, they played way too much sideways. And they got burnt because of it. You know, there are too many lateral plays. And in the last game, they just advanced the puck, changed the territory, and then skated into it. And I thought they played a smart, conservative game

that you can win all day with, and you can win one-goal games, and you can win 2-1 playing like that. I thought if they bring that tactic with them again, I think they've got a good chance to win the game. Toronto Maple Leafs come in with a little bit of momentum off that win. There's no question about that, Hitch, but lots of talk about the Leafs and their lack of scoring. And then, of course, the finger gets pointed to Matthews and Marner

and Tavares and Nylander. From your experience, Hitch, when you know that your stars have so much more to give, how do you handle the approach to them? Do you have to really be methodical on what you do or what you say publicly or behind closed doors or is it just something that happens naturally? be methodical on what you do or what you say publicly or behind closed doors? Or is it just something that happens naturally? No, I don't think it happens naturally, Nick. I think I've always said there's a big difference between looking for space and fighting for space.

And the playoffs are about fighting for space. And whether it's Marner, Matthews, Nys Nylander doesn't matter whether it's Kachuk any of those guys Barkoff whoever fights for space usually ends up scoring goals and to me uh if you're talking about scoring you're talking about scoring chances that you have to win the fight for space you look at what Dallas did last night you know, they kept Seattle to the outside the whole night. And there's got to be a change in attitude where you're willing to dig in, you're going to go in those hard areas, and you're going to fight to keep your space there.

And if you don't, you're going to be looking for one-and-dones or you're going to be looking from the perimeter all the time. And that's the difference. Everybody has to buy into that that even your most skilled guys so hitch i need you to be honest here is that the exact same conversation that you would have with a guy like i don't know brett hall or are we talking a whole new kettle of fish here no not so much holly because he could hide on the ice and he knew angles that that you see 20 years later now but i had those conversations with madano and you know i've had those and i've

had them with other guys too that you you got to go get dirty and and the score will happen and goals will come but first you got to be involved in the dirty part of things and Mo bought in I mean he he became for a period of about six years there probably the best two-way player in the world and he yet he had a reputation to being a scorer but he went into the hard areas when it really mattered. How typical is it to get someone to do that, to make a change to their game? You know, obviously, you know, thinking about the Leafs and their stars, not a ton of aggressive guys, but Medano wasn't that either. You know, how common is it to get a guy who typically thinks one way to say, hey, you got to come back you got

to battle for pucks is it is that something that's even doable long term well you've got to convince them that it's a fight for us and not them and what i mean by that is when you do the hard stuff and you go into the hard areas you're not doing it for yourself you're doing it for someone else on your line someone else on the bench someone else who's injured you got to convince the players that what the hard things they want that you want to get them to do are for us it it stops being about them and it's the more uncomfortable you can get them in there it's it becomes even bigger for us and that's the convincing that has to take place.

We're talking to one of the most winningest coaches in NHL history in Ken Hitchcock. Hitch, you can look and do match-ups all day long, and then there's the match-up between a head coach and the other guy across the bench. And two coaches that, you know, sure, Hall of Famers, I think, when it's all said and done. And John Cooper and now Paul Maurice have been a huge challenge

for Sheldon Keefe here. What do you see out of Paul Maurice in his coaching career and a guy that you've gone up against? Well, I don't know how much coaching he's doing he's doing a lot of observing and he's doing a little bit of cheerleading but he did all his coaching to get into the playoffs and he had to coach his butt off and i i think he regained the passion to drive people and now he's just letting them play like he looks he looks calm he relaxed. And even when it's really wound up, he recovers quickly because he's been through this to get into the playoffs.

He had to really drive the bus hard in January and February. And he did it. And I think he's got more confidence now than he's ever had. And he's really, really enjoying it. You know, he's having a good time's really really enjoying it you know he's he's having a good time you can see it in the interviews you can see it in his disposition his confidence he's done a hell of a job quite frankly hit you've never stopped watching the game here um and one of the stranger things that i'm sure you've noticed is that offense is actually up in the playoffs

and last year it was the same thing offense went up in the playoffs. And last year, it was the same thing. Offense went up in the playoffs. And that's not been typical of playoff hockey. What's changed, if anything, about the way some of these playoff games are being played? Justin, you know what it is? It is who wins the pinch game. Everybody's got activating defensemen. And if you lose the pinch game, you give up a lot of goals and what i mean by that is the timing and the backside support and the covering

over for everybody's got activating defensemen like crazy and if you win that game you keep it in the zone and you create offensive chance after offensive chance and if you lose it you're chasing back two on one three on one three on two so to me who wins that pinch game is going to be successful and and that takes a lot of work by defensemen because there's there's a lot more skating involved now than there's ever been leafs definitely won the pinch game in game four and that that'll be a huge one tonight as well. But they were able to do it, Hitch, with 7-D, keeping Giordano in.

They got an extra day of rest out of him. He looked so much better. But overall, I mean, I wrote about it today in an article for the Toronto Star, but I'm starting to believe in 11-7 a lot more than I did in the past. Yeah, I think if you've got dominant forwards, a couple of dominant forwards, 11-7 works really well.

But if you've got just guys that can only handle their own shifts, then you're just throwing darts at a dartboard. I think Toronto's being able to get their top players their own shifts, then they're just throwing darts at a dartboard. I think Toronto's being able to get their top players on the ice way more, and that's helped. But I think also what's helped is that their skating legs on the back end, which weren't there at the start of the series, look like they're back in play now. Yeah, it's a hopeful time here in toronto

uh just to take you outside of this series a little bit and get your thoughts on what's going on around the league carolina beating the devils not sure how much of that you're able to see but what did you make of that the day you know carolina's so injured and the devil's obviously a ton a very talented team well what when carolina plays man-on- man and they got a lot of long bodies to play that game they're extremely hard to play against um there's just no space to make a play there's no space to get open uh it'd be really interesting to see what other teams do to try to combat their style and their system um this is looking like you know this is full knockout punch hockey in in vegas and edmonton for me this is everybody's taking swings early and if you connect you dominate and if you don't connect you're chasing the game and these are

these are haymakers being thrown by a lot of guys right now. Speaking of Edmonton and Vegas, do you expect the officials to almost have a reset here in terms of style of officiating to start the next game based on the suspensions that we just saw from either side? Not so much that, Nick. I think as series goes on and as the playoffs get deeper, the referees that excel are the ones that have a great feel.

They know how to take it right to the edge and not let it go over the top. And I think that that series is so wound up emotionally that you know there's not much that's like a banjo string there's not much that's going to make that thing snap and um i expect it to be a very emotional next two games whoever wins it whatever but there's going to be a really some really emotional hockey getting played now funny because typically that happens early in a series and then everyone's like okay like you know we can't waste our energy on this sort of stuff but it doesn't seem to be going away in this series uh a lot of animosity do you think that plays in the favor of a team like vegas who

maybe doesn't have the elite superstars and can kind of you know could get edmonton to muck it up with them a little bit. No. Edmonton's got some nastiness to them that I don't think anybody realized. I think the Oilers hit to hurt, and they play hard, and they're big and strong, and it's going to take a lot to push them out of this series. I really believe that because they're getting, finally getting significant production every period from their role players, which they didn't before,

but they are now. And that makes it for a really deep team to try to compete against. You know, it's funny for me, or at least so noticeable, is that nastiness in the edge that you uh that you just talked about um in many ways are led by mcdavid and dry sidle the guys that got a thousand goals this year they're walking and hacking with the best of them and that's what that's what's really interesting when you see that in a team when you're when your top players are doing all the hard stuff also,

that's like gold. That can carry you in a lot of series. Edmonton's got that. Vegas had it, then they lose it, then they got it. I don't know which way they're going. Dallas has it. And quite frankly, so did Florida. That was what was so impressive, Toronto's pushback.

They pushed some of those guys that were showing up for Florida. They pushed them onto the back burner, which was good. One more. I mean, do you see Dallas winning another cup like yours this year? I mean, do they have what it takes? Yes, I think they do. Between the goalie and defense and experience, they got a combination.

Hintz, Heiskanen, they got star players. But, you know, there's a lot of good teams playing really good hockey left in the West. So it's going to take, it's going to take a lot, but they got it in them. I think so. Wow.

It's going to be a great next couple of weeks. That's for sure. Hey, Hitch, always a pleasure to have you on our show. All right. Take care of guys. Thanks.

Thanks Hitch. Ken Hitchcock. Yeah. He's always so locked into the game. Smart and safe. A guy, he watches a ton of hockey. Yeah. I should just mention. That guy does not miss a game.

The way he's talking in depth about every series, it's like he's watching all he does is watch hockey. Well, now he can get together with Berkey and Mack at the Ritz. He's talking about the old studio that was near the Ritz, by the way. You want to go out for a drink around here, it's a little harder. Yeah. Starbucks. The old Belcher down there.

You know, and just another guy who's quietly what's third in scoring on Dallas, Max Domi. Is he really? Yeah. Yeah. He's played so well. And there's a guy that kind of got lost a little bit. And he goes to Chicago and has a great season, puts himself in his position to attract a contending team. And look at him, one game away from a conference final.

Sure, he's up for a contract, right? UFA this summer? Yep. Interesting one there. He has 38 PIMs? Something got greasy with him in one of these games. A quick stat I wanted to share before I forget about it, and then I'll let everyone move on,

is in the Devils Carolina series, Luke Hughes for the Devils has been unbelievable. He played 25 minutes for them last night, top pair minutes, 75% goals, 4% like everything. He's top player on the Devils, basically. Listen, I mean. Five career games. You know how I feel about even the situation here with Nyes.

Yeah. That they're great players, and they will be great players, and Luke's going to be a star. An absolute star. But the ask is too big this time a year but kipper they they have a stacked decor before that like they have a bunch of good guys in that back end they just identified him as the best i don't get why there's like he's like you said he played 25 minutes a night he's got share. It's just it can be a little overwhelming.

And in a perfect world, you want guys to come in and slowly, mentally, physically, emotionally develop. Yeah. You just don't drop them in. You just don't push them out of a plane. And parachute. You got to parachute. How about a few lessons first?

How about let me get a feel for it? I'm not saying that they can't be successful or they can't show that they belong. All of it has come true for both Luke Hughes and Matthew Nyes. It's just a little unfair to say, hey, now be 25 and 30 minutes and lead us to a conference final, by the way. It's just not good enough that you can come in here and play 25 minutes. We need you to play 25 minutes that gets us through the series. You've got to be better than the other guys.

Be better than the other team. I mean, he was good for them in this small sample. Maybe it would have caught up to him. He will be great. He will be great he will be great but like where was your development of the other guys for 82 games to prepare you to beat carolina to get to a conference final is that is that all wasted are they just seat fillers while we wait for our college kids to play don't you to drop in yeah i mean just want the best guys to go i think i don't know but there's an. Yeah. I mean, you just want the best guys to go, I think.

I don't know. But there's an emotional state with these guys, and there's a mental one, and there's a development mentally, and you're skipping steps for me. Yeah. I mean, tough to argue with the idea of giving guys time and seasoning to develop and all that. Also, just I understand why teams are like, I don't know. It's like nice. You know, we're like, put him with Matthews and

Marner. He looks like their best guy. How many different decisions would he have made in the last few games if he had more experience? Yeah, who knows? Who knows? But it's supposed to it comes

supposed to be in smaller sample sizes. That's all. That's all. That's all. Anyways, what else? Anything about Carolina in terms of... We should take questions, by the way. If you have questions, fire them into us. Text 590, 590.

Perfect. Anything else that impresses you on Carolina? Yes. Sammy, don't look now, but Freddie Anderson is going somewhere he's never really gone before. Oh, I didn't notice. Yeah. That's great.

Leafs' Freddie Anderson could be next round, which, by the way, the Leafs should relish the opportunity there. I really thought that in one week, Freddie Anderson was going to go to the conference final. The Habs were going to lose the draft, win the draft lottery, and the Leafs were going to get swept in a playoff series. I really thought that was in the cards. And only two of those things happened.

Sorry, one of those things happened, so that's good. Here is Megan Chayka tweeted about the Carolina Hurricanes four check. This is in the 2023 playoffs, so obviously this year's playoffs. They are first in these categories. Puck steals in the O-Zone, pass interceptions, deflections for turnovers, possessions, reversals, puck recoveries, puck battles, one puck battles in the ozone board battles, board battle success percentage, puck recovers leading to shots first in the NHL in the playoffs. That is playing hard.

That is the best blue line moving forward. They get the damn puck. They have it. They, yeah, you go into it their team comes out with it and how about that pickup of brent burns too that's looked pretty darn good pretty darn good casual 60 points or something from the back end on a first place team kind of lost in san jose and now in a perfect position now to be one of four guys. In San Jose, he was the guy until really actually Carlson showed up.

And then that chemistry just didn't work. No, you're right. It was not a good fit. And the other thing, too, on Brent Burrs is last year, I just thought he ate too many chocolate bars. Every time I looked on my TV, he was eating a chocolate bar. Jamming a Kit Kat between his front teeth. You can't have, it's like eating bacon.

You just can't do it every day. Man, I'd love to try, though. He's off the chocolate bars, and he's having a better season. Do you notice I'm off the daily chocolate bar? Now I just eat mini eggs every day. Yeah, but that's affecting me as well. No, you just didn't make a decision for yourself. That's true.

I hurt the team. You made it for me as well. Sorry, man. That Jordan Martin hook had a hell of a series for the Cades. Oh, did he? What, he had 10 points? Yeah. He's like John Drews.

He just got a bunch of guys that just work hard. 10 points in the first round. 10 points in the next round. Maybe more than 10. Fast, fast, fast, hard four check. Good decor. Like, they are the favorite on Bet365. I think it's correct.

Imagine if they could add Tara Vinen and Svechnikov and Pacioretty to that group. Yeesh. Okay, let's see. Okay, I got a text here. Guys, you can clearly see that Matthews is injured. You don't have to go as far as looking at the kind of fight with Stamkos where he only dropped one glove. You can also look at the fact he's spending more time in front of another power play

and trying to deflect shots. Your best shooter doesn't deflect shots. Say hi to Kipper from someone's full name, Cousin Mark. All right. Cousin Mark. All right. Cousin Mark? Buddy, I'm Greek. You know how many cousins I have? I'm guessing a whole fleet.

I talked about this in the morning show today about the injury thing. I hate the injury conversation at this time of year. Me too. However, it doesn't mean there's not some validity. Sure, but who isn't hurt? I think Ryan O'Reilly looks like he's playing with a broken fibula. here me too however it doesn't mean there's not some validity sure but who isn't hurt i think ryan o'reilly looks like he's playing with a broken fibula like i the way he's skating around he looks like he's in extreme pain i think everybody's dealing with something so is austin

often and i love this from ken hitchcock is austin looking for space or is he fighting for space that's a i love that from him and it's such a great coach-speak thing to say, but I agree. I think he's looking for space at this moment. Right? Yeah. Finding some, that's part of the thing is do your best players get within that home plate area?

Do they go stand there against Tampa Bay? He tips in pucks. He gets one of the back door. It's a dangerous area to be at. You know, you need your best guys there. Not circling around the perimeter. Do you think he's dealing with something serious? No.

No. I don't either. I think he's just one of many guys who is battling every other day, and no one's at 100%. And until I'm told otherwise, until they say anything, he's one of many guys out there just feeling the effects of NHL playoff hockey this time of year. Here's some Leafs stats for you guys that I think can help the Leafs right

now, even strength shot attempts from the slot. The Toronto Maple Leafs are third in playoffs at getting shot attempts from the slot. After that, their second chance shot attempts, their 12th, their shot attempts recovered.

They're 13th. They're four checking success. They're 13th they're four checking success they're 13th so they get a puck on net one and done it's over yeah and that to me is a big story of the game is you want to play in the ozone get the puck back you want to score get a rebound and i don't care what reputation bobroski has yeah when you hear those numbers any goalie gets a heck of a lot better no kidding eh yeah make me make the first one i'll make the first save i'm in the nhl you guys just help me out from there and he hasn't hey look at dallas scores last night pavelski gets a shot where he you know plays baseball and bats one on the ice ever no or the bat in the middle of the

air a rebound second chance is being around it for follow-up attempts Leafs offense isn't the only issue in this series Florida as well Matthew Kachuk was asked the other day about the lack of offense I think from the Leafs and he says the Leafs how about me I haven't scored either lately I like that he looks it in the eye though I think that was a pretty good comment out of matthew kachuk and maybe another sign of his maturity here let's let's listen to derrick to to paul marie's talk about uh kachuk's line going into game five so i found them fine if i didn't like their line last game i would attribute that to all four had the same kind of thing going on.

Yeah, I thought we played with the puck too much while our feet were standing still. It's the simple version of what I saw from the bench and certainly when I watched the game again. Those guys are better when Benny's rolling through the middle and they're on the puck, right, with their feet first. When they get it, they don't need a map. The net never moves. You know where it is.

It's like having Adam Oates on the show. I never know when he's done. The net never moves. I swear it moved on me. They put a different spot? That's not a dump in. That was a moved on me. They put a different spot? That's not a dump in. That was a shot on goal.

So look for them to skate more is what I got out of that. Look for their team to have their feet moving a bit more with the puck. Yeah, I am really curious to see their forecheck tonight. And if they can get it back to the standard that they had in the first couple of games here i'd like to see jake mccabe have a better game played a lot of hockey here i mean i know it's not tampa bay over the last three years but they came off an emotional series that we did not see the energy drop and we were all expecting it. I was expecting it. Yeah.

I talked about it and it, for me, it did come to fruition. Just happened to be in game four, nine game. One, two, three.

You can keep eating sugar, but eventually they get it back on a steam, you know, are they going to get it back tonight by, by the beginning of puck drop where you're in deep and all of a sudden Bennett's flying in and Kachuk's flying in and turnovers and the Leafs are scrambling I think a lot's gonna be on Bobrovsky like if he gives them enough saves to kind of hang around and stay in it early like I think if the Leafs can get a couple early I think you have the chance to to really take the wind out of their sails and be like god you know not only do we

have to keep pace we got the two early goals in game they've done a couple times they've led the last yeah they led games two and three i think yep but i i think just where they're at in terms of asking florida to find an effort to climb a mountain and not just, you know, win the 50, the, the even battle. I think you could really dishearten them a little bit. I got a question here from John Mitchell on YouTube.

What do you think of the idea of making the department of player safety, a three person panel, a former player, a former ref and one other. Could it help bring, could it help bring more clarity and less controversy to these decisions? First off, three people is not enough people for me. If you do a panel.

I would welcome a change in structure for sure. And I don't know what that means. It can't be a reality TV show where you're like, I vote yes, I vote no. Let's see the third judge. Like, I don't know. They're having a conversation and trying to make sense of it. Now, is this the opportunity where I can say what a joke it is?

Yes. Petro got one game? What a joke. We did have this conversation yesterday. We knew it was coming. Yeah, you did. I didn't believe it would happen. Yeah.

And I've heard people be like, ah, you know, I thought if they would suspend him for one, they would rescind nurses, right? I can't believe it. It has nothing to do with nurse. It's his own event. And you're going to say, yes, it does.

No, it doesn't. It's a slash that's violent. It's actually game management, like the refs do, within suspensions. I'll tell you. Which is the worst. Yes. 100% that if Petrangelo did not slash, actually game management like the refs do i'll tell you within suspensions i'll tell you which is the worst yes 100 that if petrangelo did not slash dry sidle yeah they're rescinding

which is the dumbest thing i've ever heard really because it it it wasn't... The fight does not warrant taking a player of his stature. Should not be a suspension. A $9 million player. I'm paying $400 for my seat. Okay? That episode doesn't warrant a one-game suspension. It's dumb. Yeah.

It's just dumb to suspend a guy because after everything I've watched in this series, Nurse comes in and says, let's fight, and the other guy's saying, let's fight, and they fight, and you're... It's stupid. Someone has to ask first, like any date. Ridiculous.

Dumb. Ridiculous. What they should do is give Nurse's game to Petrangelo. It should be zero for Nurse and two for Petrangelo. It's not black and white. It's political. Political? It's political.

If there's anything the NHL likes more than gray area? It's gray. It's political. You're not taking Petrangelo out two games and having him sit on the sidelines and watching Edmonton. No, it does matter because he is a very good player. Petrangelo out two games and having him sit on the sidelines and watching Edmonton. No, it does matter because he is a very good player. He has no history. Good players can slash now?

When they've been run like that all series and you haven't done your job to protect them better, yeah, maybe a little bit. You can't send a message to the rest of the league that if you're good, you play by a different set of rules than if you're not. In this instance, though, you can make an argument that the officiating let Petrangelo down in this series. Sure. They let him down.

I think that's a fine case. He's a quality player. He has no history. He just had it up to here with the officials letting edmonton have their way and then he came back to send a message you're hitting your mic there kepper you're heated he came back to send a message that you know they want to attack me i'm gonna attack them he got a one game suspension no one's hurt dry saddle's not hurt if he's hurt he misses the series you miss the series that's the way it's generally worked here's the nh if he's hurt he misses the series you miss the series that's the

way it's generally worked here's the nhl here's what the league is saying at least they're consistent there here's what the league is saying if you don't like the calls or feel like the refs have not done a good job of protecting you you can now enact vigilante justice and we won't stand in your way yes if you're conor mcdavid or if you're Conor McDavid or if you're Petrangelo, yes. If you're Nick Kiprios or Kyle Clifford and all of those, those are different rules for me. And 90% of the guy. But when it comes to the star players,

the league doesn't want to take them out. They don't go by the same rules. I want to see both those guys play yeah but they have a different uh they have different borders they have different uh guardrails than than me or anyone else yeah 90 of the league 95 of the league yeah i think objectively and i'm okay with that i'm okay with that. I'm okay with the Stars being treated a little differently than 95% of the rest of the league. I am too, but there's obviously, there's a bridge too far sometimes.

And Tom, it's not like if Petrangelo is different. It looked horrible. And it's dry-cidal. It looked horrible. I'll give you that. It wasn't a horrible slash. It looked horrible. It was not horrible. Huh. It was not horrible.

Huh? It was totally horrible. It was wretched, Kipper. It wasn't vicious. Yes, it was. It was insanely vicious. But I've been in situations like that. I know when guys slash to hurt or break a bone.

That wasn't it. He missed. He tried. No, it was for effect. It's an FU. It's an FU. Pet tried. No, it was for effect. It's an FU. Petrangelo slash was all for effect. He was sending a message. And that message was FU.

I want to hurt you. I want to hurt the best player in the league at this point. Do you see the tweet someone put out there? Vinny DeJarne to Jack Eichel next game. And it's just a guy tomahawking a mannequin in the head it's like there's one game for those let us send our guy i bet your guy vinny vinny's getting a little buddy yeah vinny's getting a lifetime ban if he does that yeah but they're fine sure darnell's back in the hall we give more minutes to kulak and by the way

if i'm edmonton petro deserved to if i'm edmonton i take no doubt if i'm if i'm Edmonton, if I'm Edmonton, I take that trade all day long. What's that? Petro for nurse? Yes. Yeah, probably. Well, if I'm Edmonton, I'm upset that it's any for my guy and not two for his. And that happened twice in the regular season with the instigator in the five minutes. Vegas won't miss Petro a lot more than, and I'm not here to disrespect Nurse,

or I'm just saying that. Yeah. Petro's one of their best players. Of course. And Nurse at times has been really, really good, or he can struggle sometimes defensively. The loss is bigger on Vegas. It's not a trade-off.

No, it's not. No. But then that's why your good players can't do hyper-dumb things. Well, it could come back and cost Vegas the series losing Petro by one game. Yeah. To me, listen, I want to see the best players play. But this is one of those situations where it should be like, it's too bad they don't have Petro.

But you can't do that. I think they might. I think things might get a little squirrely in that game tonight. I just think you got to play hockey. It's game five. It's game five. You got to play. I don't.

Which, by the way, if it's going to be the kips talking about they call a bunch of penalties edmonton's like oh no please don't put us on the power play six times i do think that there's a world in which if it's a depends on result obviously but like if someone gets ahead by a lot by any stretch it gets squirrely yeah for sure for sure i think they tighten the screws right out of the game would like would like to say, great series. Those two teams hate each other. It's a good rivalry. They play each other a lot.

The reason of it is because of the stuff we're talking about. 100%. Well, obviously. Yes, it's lovely. Yeah, obviously. Really, really good. Great drama. Yeah.

So, like, stop trying to over-sanitize our game, please. Oh, come on. Yeah, we're going to green light tomahawk chop so we can have a better radio show give you a break yes we are yeah we are we are all right sammy what else you got well i don't know i have much else because it's time to go i think we should probably talk about the leafs game tonight please give us a very pessimistic score tonight so the leafs will continue this series the leafs have been absolutely crap on home ice this playoff. One and four.

And all five of those games with Samsonov and Nett, where he's been crap on home ice. My gut says they lose this series in six games. But I think they could very easily lose tonight. I don't know what to expect. So I'll say. Let's get the offense going here. No.

Yeah. I'll say. Five-two. Leafs. Oh, you're saying Leafs. It's a good pick. I'm going 5-4. They've got to break out one game.

5-4 Cats and OT. Give me 4-1 Leafs. 4-1 Leafs. Give me 4-1, 5-2, and an overtime loss, you said? Yeah. 5-4 Cats. That's good. Meow.

Very happy with your meow. Sam Bennett, OT winner. I really love that I have twisted myself into this reality where me being pessimistic makes the Leafs win. I love this. Really good stuff for me. Imagine it came down to that.

Meow. We're starting tonight. Matthews, Marner. You have no idea what to think. Yarncroft. You're right. Probably. After the show, you're not allowed to talk

until after the game. Okay. I think the Leafs... You got your Leaf talk tonight? Oh, yeah, of course. Save everything for that. Oh, yeah. Okay. Just think the Leafs. You got your Leaf talk tonight? Oh, yeah, of course. Save everything for that. Oh, yeah. Okay.

Just like that, two hours over. Our thanks to Doug McClain, Joshua Cloak, and Ken Hitchcock. Enjoy game five, everybody. We're back on Monday. Have a safe weekend. Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening. Real Kipper and Born.