Real Kyper & Bourne - Team Canada Dissection + Canucks Drama with Rick Dhaliwal

Episode Date: January 2, 2025

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne, and Sam McKee open the National hour discussing the New York Rangers amidst their struggles, and debate some potential trades the team could make to try to turn things around. Sportsnet’s Jason Bukala (7:28) joins the show to chime in on the Rangers, before breaking down the challenges that have faced Team Canada at the World Juniors, ahead of their Quarterfinal matchup with Czechia. Later, Rick Dhaliwal (32:07) stops by to continue the conversation around the Canucks. They go through Patrik Allvin’s comments about Elias Pettersson, the expectations around the young star, and the likelihood of a trade including him or J.T. Miller. (50:00) The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

All right. Our first crack at a national hour in 2025. Happy New Year. Nick Kiprios, Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee. The National Hour Live. Sportsnet 650 in Vancouver. Sportsnet 960 in Calgary. This hour of real Kipper and Bourne brought to you by Bet365.

In a few minutes, Jason Bucala will join us. Former head scout with the Florida Panthers. Does a terrific job on Sportsnet.ca as well. Will get into the World Junior Championships. And what the heck's going on with Canada, Sammy? Sammy's uptight. Rick Dollywalt will join us later on in the program as well because there's still a ton going on.

What's going on in Vancouver? Anything? No, nothing. It's all quiet in Vancouver. I was saying to Borey in the break, it's a perfect storm of a team to cover for Vancouver. With a market that's already... It's a media market.

Yeah, it's already a pretty warm market at times, and it's a team that's supposed to be good, that's underachieving, with drama in the room, big injuries, coaching question marks. Like, you name it. Pocket the mic is awesome. It's just as good as it gets, really, in terms of that. And a team with massive potential.

Big time. It's just great. So he's the co-host of Donnie and Dolly, the team on Czech television in Vancouver. And Rick will join us in about 30 minutes. I wrote my article today for the Toronto Star, put some news and notes in there as well. Oh, there's a note, all right.

There's one on the Vancouver Canucks. Talk about burying the lead, Val. Who cares about Matthew's injury? That's juicy. So I did mention that the Vancouver Canuck management team may be growing tiresome and maybe leaning towards understanding that certain players in that room cannot co-exist they need a divorce and they need to step in and maybe do something here well you know the pd and miller stuff is not

super new brad richardson uh went on what was it empty netters or missing curfew i think was in the room with both those guys and basically confirmed that yeah like miller is probably in the right as a great guy and a worker and all that but he said he's really hard on pd pd may be the type of guy who turns off rather than gets motivated by that constant. And eventually, yeah, I believe they call it irreconcilable differences. Wow. Big word there, pal. Yeah, thanks.

I do words. Alvin had a pretty good discussion with Ian McIntyre that kind of pointed a finger at Petey as well for needing to step up and play better, deal with it, whatever word you want to describe it. Petey aside, I don't think a lot of these guys who are superstar-level talents encounter much friction or pushback on the way up to the NHL, right? Like, they're great, and like they're great and they're great

and they're great and everyone kind of like they can do it their way and eventually it gets hard you got to think though like if you're the management group there you're alvin you're rutherford at some point you know you're gonna regret trading one of these guys regardless like it really does feel like it's not gonna feel good either guy that if you do trade them but you can't let this ruin a hopeful season like if this is truly the thing that's hanging over the like you're just gonna let it rot your room to the core here like if it's really that bad than us for sure but every single person is just like these guys can't stand each other at some point but it the story's been out there in the media now, fairly heavy now for a few weeks, if not longer.

Who knows how long it's been going on behind the scenes before the media has really picked up on that. Sure, it's years. So they may just come to the point where they have to do something. They cannot just let it carry on in hoping and crossing your fingers that it's going to fix itself. It's not going to fix itself. You know, if they both want to be there, surely they would recognize that they can't let one

bad relationship jeopardize their life. Like, keep in mind, they own homes and they live there and they have like, you know, he can't let that one relationship just ruin it and uproot your family and all that. You'd think they'd be able to work it out. If they can't and something so significant has happened, then yeah. It's like, I was going to say before, Elliot went on with Marchese and Futa and said today that ideally they would still work it out. If there's any room for that, they have to try.

They have to lock these guys in a room, go out to dinner, whatever a firm answer can it i think they've tried that already well then it's happening if they've tried it and we're at this part and it's out it's happening that's the leaning part that i wrote about today was that sick of it yeah i think so if you're those guys you're saying i would rather get dealt somewhere else well uh i get get the impression that JT Miller doesn't want to go anywhere. And he's got a no move. And it might be rather difficult, I think. You can take all the calls you want on him, but this guy needs to green light it. I do believe that there's one spot he would maybe lift his no move,

and that would be the New York Rangers. And they're looking. They're looking. Oh, of course, and he's the type of guy who would make a difference in a room. They want JT Miller. They do. So, like, you want to hear the easiest trade? Okay.

Yeah. Kreider for Miller? No. And Keandre? No. Okay. Zibanejad. Ugh.

Because Zibanejad. JT Miller goes to Rangers, Zibanejad, and then you can put whatever you want around it. But that's the trade. Here's where I'm at on that, Kip. And I know that that's not like you just like, here's what I think works. Arthur Staple, who we had on the last hour,

go ahead and listen to it, tweeted last week, hear me out, Zibanejad for Engvall. That's where Zibanejad's game's at. No, no, no, no, no. Hey, listen, like Arthur, nice 10 minutes, but you're crazy in the head. It was a joke. It was a joke. But, like...

Zibanejad's a good player, okay? He's a good player. He has been, for sure. And I don't think he's a JT Miller. He's having a rotten season. But he's at 8.5 million. Miller's at 8 million. They're both 31 years old.

They both have five years left on their deal. I think Zibanejad, you'd have to throw in like a first with him. Whatever the case is. He's a dash 22. Dress it up any way you want. And I'm not suggesting that Zibanejad's a number one centerman. But that's

to me the deal that needs to be worked out. I think if you're a Canucks fan, you're just yelling your radio along the seawall the camper's an idiot camper's an idiot in stanley park walking through what the hell is he talking about uh pull a defenseman out of there yeah see if you can get keandra miller out of there yeah now we're talking now we're talking now we're talking okay yep but it's it's based off of those two contracts at that that age, with the same term left.

Build it any way you want. Okay, let's welcome in Jason Bukla, Pro Hockey Group, Sportsnet. Does a great job. There he is. Oh, so he's at the rink? Happy New Year, yeah. Happy New Year, pal. Listen, can I pipe in on that last one?

We would love it. I was going to go with you for Vancouver before we get into the World Juniors. Okay, good. I'm leading a slow death here. The band of Jed will drive Rick Pocket around the bend, in my estimation. And he's got his best shift. It can really be productive and get it done, but the way that the Vancouver Canucks want to play,

I'm with you guys. They'd have to throw in like a DeAndre Miller who's going to play that heavy set style in the back, kind of like what they wanted to get out of J.R. Day when they signed him. You know, I'll try and get into that, but I'll tell you, the money makes sense, but manage that. It's a lot of

hope this game for me. But a talented guy though. 40 goals, 90 points just two years ago. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Talented guy. Yeah.

The stock's plummeting a little bit. It's like the Canadian dollar right now. That's cool. Well, one more on Vancouver before we get into what you're covering right now. And that's just, you know, you've been around pro hockey long enough here, Jason, and just what we're hearing out of Vancouver.

And we've all been around in dressing rooms where we know not everybody gets along, but have you ever seen it to this degree, either with a team that you've been involved with uh american hockey league team or other teams that you've heard of no no i have not uh i way too much noise it doesn't seem to want to go away um i i'm a little bit uh perplexed here because is it a is it a jt miller thing is it a is it a pet or something like what is it is it a Petterson thing like what is it because let's not forget this is JT's 13th and you know some of this noise I'll take you guys

way back if I want to reflect so way way back in JT Miller's draft cycle when we interviewed him for the draft and he came in and and we just asked him the regular questions you know outside interests outside of hockey etc et cetera, et cetera. He says to us, well, I like to fish. And I'm like, well, that's great. So, you know, you and your buddies get in the boat. No, no, no. I like to back up a cooler, head off into the bush by myself, find a watering hole and fish for the day.

Maybe have a few wobbly pops, whatever the case may be. He's a pretty honest guy. What a guy. But what it stood out to me about it was that he likes to go roll the loop on his own. He's not really an inside guy, if you get my drift. And then he's gone through some situations here. I love the guy as a player.

I think he's exactly what Larry Coggan likes in a player with the Vancouver Canucks. But at the same token, there's a lot of noise here. Leaking out of a room that's gone through a lot of different distractions this year, injury and leave of absence, families, issues, et cetera, and they're coming off a hell of a year last year. So I thought they had it figured out, I guess, is what I'm trying to tell you. I thought they were building a culture there.

And for this amount of noise to be leaking out, the last time I saw something this wild was when Tony D'Angelo was coming through the Subaru Hound and turning pro. That kid couldn't escape noise, and it's followed him around the world. I bet you if Tarkin had to choose Miller or Pettersson, he'd pack Pettersson's bags, just saying. Listen, I'm with you there, buddy. They had these two twins called. They had these two twins named Savines.

They played in Vancouver for years and years. Those types of players are great players, but they're a certain type of personality. They're never going to change their spots. They are what they are. And maybe that's not what they want to get them to the next level. I don't know. But something's not working there. And I hate the noise.

And it's going to make life really difficult on them in the second half here if they don't know. But something's not working there and I hate the noise and it's going to make life really difficult on them in the second half here if they don't get this figured out. Fuchs, you're in media now. You love the noise. Alright, let's switch gears. Can you just look straight into the camera and talk our Sammy McKee off the

ledge. Let him know that they're just the one win away from tonight and everything's just going to be fine with this team canada well listen i gotta tell you something between sammy and jd bunkus i can't even watch the game these two idiots are blowing my phone up all night long you know just losing that's 100 true 100 true yeah but um hey it's warranted and he's not alone 18600 people in the building well i don't know there's 500 american parents here i guess but you get my drift and it's been uh wow i've truthfully this is my 14th world juniors fellas i've never seen anything like it i still

to this moment don't understand how this team identifies what type of style they want to play um are they like i thought coming in they're going to load up like a heavy hard line with like richie borghese maybe porto marto like have those six three 210 pound guys you know the old school canadian way at this event muscle your opponent and then oh will them to your skill guys can start taking over it just hasn't happened and in the tournament in shooting percentage, 5.7%. I mean, we're talking Brad Marsh type of shooting statistics here, and it's just alarming for a team at this event. They've got to stay out of the box, but more importantly,

remember before the tournament, we talked about the value of scouts, what they put value in this tournament. High leverage situations situations how can you handle the stress what does it bring out of you you know the stressful situations there's some guys on this team that just have not handled it well easton cowens was right at the front of the line for me um gets an opportunity to bounce back tonight we'll see what happens okay i want to i want to get into easton cowen but before that and you know i certainly speak for myself, and I'm hoping I speak for J.B. that we're not doing your, like, expertise on the players,

but we do follow it enough to understand where that narrative's headed so far, and you just touched on it a little bit. When you struggle, when things don't go right, it's who's not on the team, and who picked this team, and what's their identity and it all it all kind of surfaces uh no different in in the pros or or in junior now so is this an a big issue right now is not not the guys there but maybe who's not there including the third pick overall in the draft i think is seneca as well, who did not make the team.

But is this a big problem right now on looking at their struggles is that they just didn't pick the right guys? I guess it's still to be determined. I would say this, that I think that this roster that they did select had enough or has enough to be much better than what we're seeing. So I don't think they presented the best version of themselves so far. And I got to be honest, I think it comes down to the way that the coaching staff has implemented a game plan around this group. I'll give you an example. Gavin McKenna, 60 points guys in 30 games in the Western Hockey League.

He averaged coming into the tournament his last 10 game segment 24 minutes a night when when you have a race car in the garage and you only put him out there for 12 minutes a night he doesn't have the same feel the same impact and you also don't put your your opponent on their heels enough like they're not pushing it in your opponent's face to make them think that they got to worry about anything so i'm not even getting to that stage i understand the noise what i picked a few other players? Yes. Andrew Crystal from the Polona Rockets. They talk about his skating. But the Washington Capitol draft pick, he gets everywhere on time from point A to point B. And, you know, ask TJ Ginla what it's like to play with that kid.

He obviously was really benefit from playing with Crystal. And that's a guy. Seneca, another guy. Big, huge body. I ran into him in the bathroom coming out. I didn't run into him in the bathroom. You got my shirt. We're crossing paths.

In Oshawa, the CHL, U.S. National Team prospect game, this guy's a house. Like, he's put together, and he scores goals. And again, there's another power body over 20 minutes a night. So I think this team has enough talent on balance. I don't think that they've been deployed properly. I don't think the game plan has been on point. And obviously the discipline hasn't been great either.

But the good news is, if there is any, the goaltender has been fantastic and they haven't given up an EVA strength goal yet. So I'll wait till Monday to look in the rear view mirror to talk about the rest of the roster. But I still think if they game plan it properly, this is a good enough team. It's almost like this tournament has become such a big deal to showcase yourself individually it's tougher to

put sort of a collective effort or maybe it's not tougher but they just haven't done it i'm looking at this canadian team and i watched last game i think the the canadian team has 29 minor penalties and the next closest is 22 in the tournament it looks like some individuals who want to get noticed and i am talking about cowan here who just aren't sure how to handle it how to show it when it isn't happening for them at this point i you know i know mckee's telling me that it doesn't feel like the way that canadians have played in the past you know what are you seeing from that style that you know taking a lot of silly individual minor penalties and I don't,

it's weird out there right now. Well, you know, I'll throw it back on everybody. You know, the three of us, the four of us here, like, you know, when we're under stress on our job or whatever, we've all made dumb decisions. I mean, it's a fact. And these guys are, these guys are teenagers and they're under stress and, and they know that there's a lot of attention on them. And yeah yeah they've made some really dumb decisions but i'm gonna tell you something else

if you think that you're going to be an nhl player you're going to cash million dollar checks on my watch this is part of the process you have to be able to handle this and you have to be able to show me that on your hardest day that you can make the adjustments that are required and so far that hasn't happened so um you know cowan's penalty the other night to, you know, the Americans go up 3-1 on the power play, but equally as egregious was his follow-up shift with the goaltender when he, you know, laid a muffin out in the slot for the empty net goal. So I'm expecting that he's going to be able to,

my expectation is that he's going to bounce back from that. There's some underlying things here, though, I have to say some positives. Like Braden Yeager is the captain of the team, and people are saying, well, he's going to bounce back from that um there's some underlying things here though i have to say some positives like braden jaeger is the captain of the team and people are saying well he's not scoring and he's not producing to his identity offensively you know how we've talked about on this show before the b game like you have to have a b game on your worst day or like you're not scoring you have to have something else like jaeger's been matching up against uh top uh top forwards on the other team he He's 73% in the faceoff. This is a scorer from the Western Hockey League

who's killing penalties, doing all these other things to contribute, hopefully, to the team results. And so there's some positives that I'm taking out of it as a scout, but there's still a lot of noise around the team because the expectation is that they should run the table. Everybody should score. Everybody should do certain things. That's where I come back to poaching

and just the way that the group's been deployed guys like tonight especially there's no tomorrow so if you've got six horses going up front they better have 22 plus minutes at the end of their score sheet by the end of the night and carter george obviously he's got to play very well but um the shape for injury isn't this alarming to the 17 year old defenseman i think he's the best player in the world. I think he's the first overall pick. The 17 year old goes out of the tournament and everything falls off the rails on the back end

in terms of having that guy who can transport the puck and work offense from the back end. That's alarming for a 17 year old. So just on that note, I want to ask you one more on Easton Cowan, but just that 17 year old-old that went down who's touted as one of the best

and maybe first pick overall, is this another reason why we shouldn't go to 17-year-olds in this tournament? No, absolutely not. No, it's an opportunity. You take your best player, period. I mean, this is the best on best. Like Dalvor Dvorsky for,

uh, Slovakia. And I know it's different. They don't have the population of Canada, but he's playing in his fourth world juniors right now. This guy, you know, he's a,

he's a St. Louis traffic. He's got 11 tucks and springy in the America, you know, hard. The American league is good for your first year. The kid came up, scored 43 in summary last year.

He's got 11 tucks in the Springfield this year. And, and he's one of the leading goal scorers here. So, no, you bring your best players, and that's just part of the process. Fair enough. I'm going to swing this back. I know we had our leaf hour,

but I think Westerners will like this question to you. And it's around Easton Cowan, and we know he's the highest touted Maple Leaf prospect here, but is this a typical toronto thing when you over hype a guy to the extreme that cowan had came into training camp and everyone thought legitimately would make the team and it kind of can mess with your mind a little bit and now you come here and you think that you're maybe a different type of player when you're really not and because i've watched enough of him to go buddy that's just it's not you're not working hard enough first of all you're you're the penalty that you're talking about i've seen a thousand times where you go and go you're running a guy because you know you haven't done anything all game and that's a hit that's a hit that you

that that that you make because you're you're feeling guilty about your last 57 minutes and i'm just sitting there going that you know he's he's a good he's a good player he can be a great player one day but i think he's he doesn't know what type of player he's supposed to be in this tournament. Yeah. So I think you just hit right on it. And I talked about before he came to the tournament, and that is that you have to resort to, let's think back to his draft year. He had all kinds of momentum in the back half of his draft year,

and he earned Dale Hunter's trust in London to elevate his responsibilities with the London Knights. Well, how did he get there? He played with relentless compete, tenacious, on and off the puck. He tracked 200 feet, and his shift length was probably around 43 to 46 seconds, somewhere in there. I'd have to look back, but I definitely can guarantee it was somewhere in there. And he played to an identity, which the result of that, he produced offense. Because when you're that relentless and you're playing fast, you're doing everything it did, it created offense. Now,

the shift like here, guys, has been hovering around a minute. So the other night against USA, his first few shifts of the game, he played with that interior rat type of style that was hopefully going to open up some space for him and his line mates. But then when he didn't get the chances that he necessarily wanted early in the game,

he resorted to long shifts bad you know habits and and obviously stupid penalties so that to me is exactly what you just said you have to be mature enough to and part of it's on the coach too but you as an athlete have to be mature enough to look say hey listen i gotta get back to 38 42 seconds of high energy play here. The rest will come. It doesn't all have to come right away. And he hasn't done a good enough job of that. So hopefully again tonight that that's the case.

But, yeah, listen, Fraser Minton a year ago was captain of Team Canada and Gothenburg, fellas, and everybody was throwing rocks at a glass house. He trained really well, had a great offseason, and he got off to a nice start here after getting injured in training camp with Toronto. It's a process. process there's gonna be all kinds of ups and downs he's still got top six upside but uh i'm looking for way more discipline than getting back to play to his identity tonight for sure hey books uh you know for the four nations face-offs when we're picking canadian goalies it's been a lot of, ah, Kim Talbot? You know, like, we're like, we don't have one.

When's the next time we have Wab, Roder, Price? Is one coming? I know, it's a ridiculous ceiling, but do we have a guy here, one coming? Yeah, actually, Carter George is very good, Warren. There's no question. He really is. Jack Ivankovich here here the backup and the draft eligible he is he's excellent as well and he's got some growth in him i i saw his dad in

the lobby here's dad's six foot five the kid's only 5 11 now i'm anticipating a growth spurt there and he's going to get a little bit bigger but uh there's some good news on the horizon between the pipes but yeah there's absolutely uh another time when we get together i had a fascinating discussion with someone from the russian federation well someone who associated with the russian federation the other day about the russian bullpenning model uh next time i'm on let's or maybe when we run into each other upstairs at the moment i got some fascinating intel for you guys because what they're doing in russia with this huge ball Is it drugs? It might be doctoring up. Go ahead and ask the question.

Well, I can't. I'm not sure. They could be. But they also could be two years older than they are. I don't know. They have a plan in place. All right. Does it involve artificial intelligence?

Cyborg Russians. Something's happening. It ain't right. It can't be this much better. They're cloning a goalie right now with an eye in the front of his head. It's going to be unbelievable. Yeah, stay tuned. This is where I'm sorry that I brought it up right now.

I'm sorry. I took it off the rails. We've got a lot of people believing what you said right now about the eye, by the way. Also, I'm joking. That took it off the rails. We've got a lot of people believing what you said right now, but the eye, by the way, that's how crazy it is. Hey, books, great stuff is always enjoy the game tonight.

Thanks for your time, my friend. All right. And I look forward to hear it from you, Sammy. I'll try to put the breath on my phone. Thanks. Happy new year.

Happy new year. Jason Bukla, pro hockey group, sports that Puckpedia and former NHL scout. So, Sam, we got to get you in on this. You're a resident World Junior expert. Not expert, fan. I'm a fan.

Yeah, well. What's going on? That game against the States really pissed me off. Yeah. And I thought there was stretches of the game where they looked good and they carried the play, like, play like a lot through the second period but I am looking at Dave Cameron a lot here the coach I mean

how does a team take 11 pounds and then to go out there and say I can't address it like a lot of it has to fall on the coaching staff here and by all accounts they didn't pick a great team he's overplaying his captain from junior like it's there's a lot I mean, right up to the top. If you, you know, if they lose tonight, it's going to go to Dave, but it's going to be

like right to hockey Canada. It wasn't just Dave that made all the decisions on who comes to the team, but like, he's the coach, he's going to wear it. And yeah, like, like I said before on Monday, they're teenagers, but this is the future of our national team. We need these guys to be good in big moments and on Monday, they're teenagers, but this is the future of our national team. We need these guys to be good in big moments and play well because they're going to develop into the guys that play for our men's senior national team.

And right now, the lights look pretty bright for these guys, and the Americans are shooting it off the post and in at every chance, and they look tougher. They look more engaged. It's not good right now. And I really need a good performance tonight and i just if they're gonna play against the states probably in the semis if they win tonight it's like i don't even know if i want that like i just i'm horrified at the state of the team at the moment so there

i'm done and it's stylistic too right yeah i don't love the the way they're playing yeah type of hockey i don't know i thought they were really intense against the states and i thought they played well early and they were throwing the body and then they started to get down they started taking stupid penalties a little bit of laziness some dumbness ethan callan's taking a beating like it's just hasn't been a great turn like it's the simpsons i'm like do the line do the instagram hockey line sure i mean i thought it was less instagram hockey against the states all right for sure but i mean they haven't given up a five-on-five goal yet, so that's good. That's crazy that

everyone's all over him and they haven't given up a five-on-five goal. And the goalie looks pretty good, but I thought, you know, the States beat him clean four or five times. I don't know.

The rest of the way, he's going to have to be their best player every now and then. Yeah, two shout-outs early in the tournament if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, he shot out the first two games

he played in against Finland, against Germany, so we'll see. But, I mean, it's tough that the Leafs are playing across from it tonight. We'll see how that goes oh yeah you guys will be watching closely though yeah we're on the leapers game time game time it's game time presented by bet

365 visit the app latest odds and find out why it's never ordinary at bet 365 must be 19 plus ontario only please play responsibly so a few games in the ice tonight, and you guys are on the panel tonight for the Leafs and Islanders. The Islanders and the Leafs, minus 115 for the Leafs, minus 105 for the Islanders. I think it's going to be a pretty even game tonight. Surprised by that number. I don't think the Leafs, I think they're factoring in that they just literally never play well in this game.

It's just crazy. The Leafs are first in their division, and the Isles are pretty close to last. I'm going to tell you, I think they're right. I think that's a good number. I think it is too. And I hate them for it because I wanted to bet it. The Leafs go in there, and the Tavares, the Leafs have never really played well against the Islanders

since Tavares has been a Leaf. It really kind of is the way it is. I just remember them going in there. I find that so strange too over the years. But am I wrong on that? I wonder what their record is. I should have looked that up, but it just feels like they haven't been great over the Tavares era there.

Some other Canadian teams on the ice tonight. The Ottawa Senators are in Dallas to take on the Stars. Tough one for the Sens. They're plus 165 underdogs. You know what? The Sens are, sorry, Dallas kind of flagging a little bit. They're struggling. The second absence is legit.

I'd bet Ottawa there. And the Calgary Flames are home for the hockey club. They're plus 100 on home ice. And the last Canadian team I'll bring up, the Winnipeg Jets are hosting the Anaheim Ducks, minus 270 Winnipeg on home ice against the Woeful Ducks. And that's it. Good one tonight, too.

Rangers and Bruins, as well as Carolina and Florida, which is a great game. Florida Panthers, minus 130. You got a puck line on the Winnipeg? Can I get Winnipeg minus a goal and a half? You can. Minus a goal and a half, they are minus 105. I'd do that.

They're not giving you a ton of value there. I'd hit that one. The duck. I'm praying to God that Gavin McKenna doesn't end up a duck. You know? You want to see him. There's a fun on it. How about Chicago?

How about you just watch Anaheim more? How about that? They stink. They've had three different rebuilds since Getzlaff left. They reek. You should stay up and watch them. Watch Cutter, Goche, and... You know what the team I do watch is the Sharks.

I'd like Gavin McKenna to go to the Sharks. Yes. That'd be fun. That would be fun. That'd be really fun. Anyway, that was Game Time presented by Bet365. Visit the app, play the thoughts, and find out why it's never ordinary at Bet365.

Must be 19+. On Tera only. Please play responsibly. Okay, quick break here. Rick Dollywall will join us. Co-hosted Donnie and Dolly, the team on Czech television in Vancouver. PD versus JT coming to a head?

Question mark, question mark, question mark. We love drama on this show. We're the worst. All right. Don't go away. We got answers for you, Vancouver. Back after these words. Teeing up the biggest games of the night,

it's the Fan Pre Game with Ailish Forfar and Justin Cuthbert. Weekdays at 6 p.m. on Sportsnet, Sportsnet 590, The Fan, and wherever you get your podcasts. It's the National Hour with the real Kipper and Bourne Show. Nick Kipper, Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee. As a reminder, this hour of Real Kipper and Bourne brought to you by Bet365. Rick Dollywall will join us momentarily as we get into the Vancouver Canucks. And what lies ahead, JB?

Yes, the Canucks currently fifth in the Pacific Division as Calgary passed them by a point. Although Vancouver does have a game in hand, so they can certainly get that back. But yeah, strange. A pivotal point in the Canucks season, I would say, right now. A lot of noise around them. Certainly a lot of talent. But struggling without the D-man there.

Sorry. Last name. Oh, Quinn Hughes? Quinter? No. Oh, yes. And Hronik. And Hronik.

You know, pretty significant absences. And it doesn't appear that Quinn Hughes is going to come back anytime soon. Yeah. Which is almost devastating. Yes. These problems are going to have to solve. Maybe with Keiondre Miller. Was that what you were saying in the first hour?

Whenever it was, we had that conversation. I get the different styles between a Zibanejad and a JT Miller. But we'll see what Rick Dollywall has to say. Co-host of Donnie and Dolly, the team on Czech television in Vancouver. Rick, how are you, pal? Thanks for joining us. When you get asked to go on Kipper and Bourne,

you know you've made it. Wow. You made it. Wow. You keep that up, up you're gonna get a regular spot hey and born hold it a second i love this guy because first he's a bc born guy second he played in the best junior a league in canada the bc hockey league the vernon vipers yes proud alum rick proud of it i'll just go to this i. I'll just go to the cafeteria and let you guys just reminisce. You can shout it out.

There's no shortage of BC hockey talk to be had right now. Kipper, I read your book, and I'm going to tell you something right now. I have been covering hockey since 1990. I love guys that made the NHL undrafted. I mean, to me, that's the human spirit, perseverance, never giving up. And, you know, I love guys. Because right now, you guys both know what these Adamys and parents spending 50, 60, 70 grand a year. A lot of these kids aren't going to make it.

And, you know, especially out here, we got the Bantam Draft, which is even tougher because now you're asked to have it all at the age of 14 to be drafted into the Western Hockey League. And we all know this is a long play. It's not a short play. So, you know, I read your book, Kipper, and I just love every hockey player. And we worry about late bloomers quitting because they didn't go in some Bantam Draft. But I just love players that never give up and the perseverance and that human spirit. That's what it's all about for those kids that don't go in the draft. Wow, Rick, I'm starting to love you too right now.

Wow. Thank you, my friend. Where would we be without a little bit of, i don't know adversity in in vancouver with when it comes to the canucks if it was just too quiet it was just it would not feel right this patterson miller issue uh kipper i'm gonna start here i i let me go here because there's a long way to start uh the floor is floor is yours my friend. Go grab a red wine. Listen, this Pedersen Miller issue goes back

to Travis Green and Bruce Boudreaux. Management knew, players know, the agents know about this issue between those two. What's amazing to me is this story had died down and then the GM a couple of days ago rips Pedersen and the story's got legs

again you know all these guys social media which is a an incredibly hard thing i mean you know social media you know these guys blame the media but the media didn't start this one the team did the gm rip you know the star player alvin ripping petterson was a shot at him to get going he is three months into an eight-year deal and they're already threatening a trade. It was a wake-up call to Pedersen to be a difference maker, but also Alvin sent a message to the rest of the teams in the NHL to see if more teams will call him so Vancouver knows their options in case they move him. Now the chatter around the Canucks in the league is very, very high these days one

team told me today they're checking in on Vancouver just to see who's available who's not available what's going out there in Vancouver they Canucks have to listen to everybody that calls in case they decide to move one of them but I'm not so sure that decision has been made to move either one the calls for Miller and Patterson are not going to stop. Vancouver is going to keep listening, but also someone told me today it may be better for the Canucks to make a move with one of these two in the offseason. One person close to the situation says, look, this is clearly now becoming a major distraction for the Canucks.

Patterson's got two high-profile agents in Pat Brisson and J.P. Berry. They also represent Quinn Hughes. It's going to be really interesting, guys, for me to see how this plays out. The more they lose here, and I'll tell you something else, they got a tough, they've had one of the easier schedules in the National Hockey League up till today. Well, that schedule gets a whole lot tougher this month is a really really tough tough um schedule for the canucks quickly i want to get a couple more things in yeah when it comes when it comes to petterson rutherford elvin and talk it where do they all no sorry rutherford rutherford elvin and talk it where do they come from they come from pittsburgh where the hardest working

guy in practice in games was superstar sydney crosby sometimes i think these guys expect peterson to be like crosby when it comes to the work habits and the way he carries himself but that's not going to happen he's a different guy he's wired differently he's not wired like crosby i think these guys want their superstars to act and and have those habits that crosby has I don't think that's going to happen now a couple of things on Miller when I talked to the Americans about adding Miller to the four nations team they told me that when they play Canada you need guys like Miller the snarl the edge the attitude the skill the heaviness they love him he's also a very much rick talkett type player let me say this

about miller when he was on his leave teams were calling vancouver about miller the canucks then picked up the phone and called miller's agent and told them hey look teams are calling one thing that was made clear to the canucks was that miller was not going to ask for a trade i said it a few weeks ago and i'll say it again i don't see miller asking out if the canucks do decide to move him it'll be on them them being proactive not the other way around he controls this process vancouver will keep informing his asian as we get more and more into it hey kipper i heard you talking about rangers canucks they're calling. Yeah, yeah. Okay, oh, I know that. But listen, I wanted to tell you,

the Canucks and the Rangers have talked about Miller for the past two years at the trade deadline. Vancouver asked for names like Alex Lafreniere and Braden Schneider in the past. I don't know. I don't think Keiondre Miller's a guy that interests them. I don't know. Things can change.

But the Canucks' blue line's a mess, guys, without Hughes and Aronik. They're looking for a top four defenseman right now. But as the team told me yesterday, have fun getting the top four D. I mean, they're expensive, but the thing with Rutherford, you guys know, is that he can strike at any time, any minute. What about

strictly from an age difference, a much younger Patterson? I think it's five years between him and JT Miller. Where does that come in strictly from an age difference, a much younger Pettersson, I think it's five years between him and JT Miller. Where does that come in to play for you, Rick, in terms of just giving up those years if you decide to move Petey instead of JT Miller? Yeah, I asked somebody that,

and I feel like what I said is this, you always keep the younger guy, especially if there's a five-year gap. But the problem out here is the reason the GM went in the press was to put heat on him and start playing better, be a difference maker. But if he doesn't change in terms of being a difference maker, he might not leave them any choice. Like, he's making 11.6 guys.

You're in a Canadian market, a hot Canadian market, and everyone's bringing up his salary in Vancouver. He has underperformed to this day. I know people talk about injuries and everything else like that. But, I mean, Brian Burke said it best one day when he was here. He said the worst place in the world to have a big contract is a Canadian market. Right? And this guy's got a fully loaded, big contract.

And he's been underperforming. And I think, you know, you want to keep the younger guy Kipper always. And there's a he's 26. He's a first line center. But, you know, if they feel that they're not going to get the difference maker in the next few years out of him, then he might not leave them any choice. Well, and it's fascinating, right? Because he's the younger guy. He's got this high offensive ceiling,

but it just feels like the way that Rick Talkett wants to play is more the JT Miller in your face. He said many times that he loves that sort of emotional element that Miller brings. Do you think that maybe there's just the Canucks are too hard on Pettersson that if they were more accepting of the way he is, it's like Willie Nylander. You could still get a lot out of him if you didn't expect so much of that JT Miller fire.

Or it's just, you know, he's or he really does. He maybe really does need to change and have a little bit more spark. I don't know. Well, 12 months ago, the Vancouver Canucks were a top team in the NHL. They had three or four guys in the top 10 scoring. Nothing went wrong for these guys. Nothing went wrong for these guys. Nothing went wrong for these guys last year. Everything went right.

And this year, nothing is going right. Okay? So injuries to Demko and Joshua at training camp. Horrible home record. Inconsistent play. You beat Florida one night and then you lose to a weak team the other night. The Miller leave of absence. The Miller-Pettersson issue.

The GM rips Pettersson. It seems like every week there's a tire fire in Vancouver. you lose to a weak team the other night the miller leave of absence the miller pedersen issue the gm rips pedersen it seems like every week there's a tire fire in vancouver one thing i do know and and and i'll tell you this both of you is i think management believed in this core last year and they thought this is the core that's going to be strong for year after year i think the management is really surprised um that's what what's happening this year i think they expected the same but here's what management's got to own up they had 10 ufas last year when you have 10 ufas okay you probably keep three or four or five i don't know but you're going to add five six new guys they added seven new guys to a roster that took edmonton

to game a seven of round two. They came back with not a totally different looking team, but a lot of new faces. And, you know, the core is still there. I think they're really surprised this management team and where they are this year. But also they got to take some blame. You know, they let Zadorov and Kowalk

and replaced with Forbert and De'Arne. De'Arne is ready on the trade block. He hasn't been great, although I have to say in the last two, three weeks, he's been much better. But you know what? That blue line is nowhere near as good enough as it should be. And here's the other thing for you guys. There's not much on the farm, you know,

and there's not much there that's screaming. Their two best prospects are Makara Mackie forward and Will Lander, aman in playing for Sweden at the world's right up in your neck of the woods they're up in Ottawa right now and so you know you I got to tell both of you last year this time like Vancouver had a great season nothing went wrong it wasn't until the after the all-star game in Toronto where some guys got tired and the play dipped and the schedule wasn't great there was a lot of long road trips but i mean nobody can really explain this year the pedersen and miller were not an issue last year this year they are an issue so were you surprised or not surprised when uh ex-connect

brad richardson uh revealed uh some details about their relationship on a podcast miss miss missing curfew this week. You know what the funniest thing about that podcast was, Kipper? That Richardson only played 17 games in Vancouver. In 2021, he was only here for 17 games to witness. Yeah. So he's basically giving you the goods on Patterson and Miller after playing 17 games in Vancouver that year. So that was kind of,

Hey, look, I know the, like I'll say it again, the people blame the media, but this thing goes back to Travis Green, to Bruce Boudreaux. Go,

go ask those two guys. Like if you go ask every teammate that played in there, but you know what? Look, you guys have played in dressing rooms. I played in dressing rooms. Everyone's been in a dressing room. Not everyone gets a lot,

but I, you. But I just don't understand why this is keep lingering. If it was pre-Travis Green, Bruce Boudreaux, why are we still talking about it four years later? That's what I think. One thing I will say, Rick,

when I hear people say that not everybody gets along, it's true. But when you lift a Stanley that, you know, not everybody gets along. It's true. But when you lift a Stanley Cup, you don't hear those words. That's true. That's true. You put it behind you for the good of the team.

No one ever talks about we didn't get along, but we still found a way to get it done. It's just it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. No, and you've got to have all 21 guys on the rope pulling the same way. And I don't think it's ever affected them in a game. I think these are two professional players, Pedersen and Miller. Look at last year, guys.

You know, they were having a great season. They were, you know, 90, 100 points. I mean, like these guys were, but like, I agree with you. Championship teams do all pull the rope in the same way. But I mean, it's just, it's become this big story in Vancouver this year. And it wasn't a story last year. And I'm not going to, you can't blame the media on this one. The GM comes out a few days ago and just reignites the fire.

Like, I mean, nobody, like Pedersen got in that, Pedersen left that presser two or three weeks ago on hockey night canada where he got mad at the media and he left and then it kind of died down after that but i mean these guys are fueling the fire hey kipper i i heard you talking about um you know the canucks in a major shake-up here's what i want to tell you about a shake-up canucks wake up this morning out of the playoffs in the west okay and they're in seattle tonight um you guys know jim rutherford he won't put up with this much longer but he's also stuck canucks are not an asset rich team they've traded away so many draft picks the last few years last time the canucks used a first and second round

draft pick in the same draft was 2019. Four times they've traded a second rounder in the last five years. This year they don't have a third. Next year, no third. No second in three years. A lot of those picks were traded to get rid of bad contracts, which makes it even more infuriating. That's why there's not much on the farm. The Canucks should be calling and listening on everybody not named Quinn Hughes but teams know the Vancouver's in a pickle no one's going to help them prices are high

but one of the problems they have is if you want a top four defenseman okay look at the Pedersen guy they had interest in him in Pittsburgh well don't you think the Penguins going to want a first round pick last year Rutherford used a first and a second round pick because he thought he had a shot at the Stanley Cup. You honestly think today they have a shot at the Stanley Cup? Yeah, excellent stuff, Matt. Yeah, you're right. It's going to be tough for him.

Wow. Very tough. Hey, Rick. Very tough. You brought the heat today, bud. Good stuff. Okay. Okay, listen.

I want to get in one last thing because I think this is important. Just give me some time here. I want to say to you guys, how lucky you are that you have Chris Tannin because, because I covered this guy. Okay. I've been in this stupid industry for 34 years and I've met a lot of hockey players. I don't think I've met a better hockey player slash person than Chris Tanniff. So the Canucks tried to get him last year out of Calgary, right? So players went to management. Canuck players went to management and said, get Tanniff.

That just shows you how much he's loved here. Not only is he a warrior on the ice, but this guy's got character off the ice. Off the charts. I could tell you stories for two hours. Well, we'll get you on again soon, my friend. If Tad had never left Vancouver, and he did because of poor management, he would not have let this Miller-Pettersson issue last as long as it has. Yeah.

He can work a dressing room as well as anybody. Hey, Rick, we got to go, bud. Okay, go. Go. Love your stuff. Thanks for joining us thanks so much oh my god he could talk a pit bull off a meat wagon that's good stuff man that's great we'll get him back we'll get him back that was 22 minutes of opinions wow buddy we could have done

200 he did shed some light on it though that. That's for sure. Awesome. All right. What else we got here? Just saw this. This is maybe. By the way, we failed to ask him about Besser, which was. Oh, yeah. He wanted to talk about Besser. We need two hours for him. I was thinking about it. It's a Doug Gilmore thing.

Today is the anniversary of the trade that brought Doug Gilmore to the Leafs. On January 2nd, 1992. It was like a 30-player trade or something. Flames received Gary Lehman, Alexander Gaudiniak, Jeff Reese, Michael Pettit, and Craig Berube. The Maple Leafs received Gilmore, Jamie McCown, Rick Natras, Kent Manderville, and Rick Walmsley. That's a bomb.

You know what? They don't make them like they used to. Let's just have that happen now. They don't make them like they used to. You got 11 guys who can still play in the league in one trade. How many players is that? We had a suspension today, didn't we? Yeah.

Jerry. LaRue. LaRue on a slew foot. More like Lapu for that play. Brutal slew foot. Jared Spurgeon. So dangerous. I hate it.

Had, I think, an MRI today. I've not heard what the damage is but everybody's saying he's going to be out a while here brutal that's a huge loss for them huge and and like larue i think he was uh fined earlier this year he's that's greasy i hated that place and i could have really i could have snapped what are you getting three games i know sense three games for a guy that may be out for months? It doesn't. I don't love that one. That was pretty serious to me.

By the way, I don't know what the timing was. We never talked about the Rempe suspension, which was a bomb of a suspension. Wow. Yeah. We never talked about it. Well, they took us off the air for a week. I know.

I guess they don't want us on the air. All right. Our thanks to Rick Dollywall for joining us. In the first hour, we had Arthur Staple and Jason Bukla also. Enjoy your night tonight. You get a chance to catch Justin and I on the Leaf Edition, Sportsnet Ontario. Have a great night, everybody.