Real Kyper & Bourne - The State of Alberta Hockey with Eric Francis

Episode Date: October 14, 2024

Sportsnet's Eric Francis joins Nick Kypreos and Justin Bourne to chat about this weekend's rendition of the Battle of Alberta (2:27). They start with the Calgary Flames' hot start, their plans in net for the rest of the year and why the front office saw a fit for Anthony Mantha alongside Jonathan Huberdeau. Then, why Edmonton Oilers fans shouldn't worry about their winless start and they address the ongoing debate on goalie interferences. Then, Nick, Justin and Sam McKee take a deeper dive into the reigning Western Conference champion's struggles, the identity of the aging Pittsburgh Penguins, and Buffalo Sabres' captain Rasmus Dahlin's skirmish with Peyton Krebs at practice. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

Welcome into the National Hour. We are live on Sportsnet 650 in Vancouver and Sportsnet 960 in Calgary. Seeing the coast-to-coast on Sportsnet 360. This hour of Real Kipper and Bourne is brought to you by Bet365. Net Kipper, Real's Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee. This is our National Hour, as I said, which covers anything and everything around the National Hockey League.

Including the province of Alberta. Yeah, especially the province of Alberta now. And we're going to welcome in Eric Francis, senior columnist, analyst with Sportsnet, in a few minutes to talk Calgary Flames. It was a courtesy we did by going with Calgary over Edmonton here in terms of the guest we chose. Well, yeah, for sure. And, you know, he's fresh off that game last night.

He was present to watch yet another wonderful Oiler performance. What is a bigger story for you, the start of Calgary or the start of the Edmonton Oilers? Because both are quite, like, I'm not going to say shocking because it's so early to win three games for Calgary. Yeah. But at the same time, we are talking about, like, what are the odds of the Edmonton Oilers losing three in a row at home?

I guess after last year, we just thought, boy, they won't dig that hole again. The only reason the Canucks won the Pacific last year is because the Oilers dug that hole, which they won't do again now that they have Chris Knobloch and been to the cup final, game seven. Knobloch's like, how'd they turn it around last year is because the Oilers dug that hole, which they won't do again now that they have Chris Knobloch and been to the cup final, game seven. Knobloch's like, how'd they turn it around last year? What was it? What'd they do?

Oh, no. Oh, crap. They fired the coach? Yeah. Yeah, so I think that's shocking. All three games at home, you know, not exactly all elite opponents either. So, yeah, really shocking.

And not just losing, Kip. They're a minus 12 goal differential, the Oilers are. The next worst in the NHL is minus six. So they're double as bad as the next worst. Chicago. Seems like bad English. Chicago carried the play for long stretches of that game. Like, they were much better.

Oh, boy. Canada got another hockey player, boys. What a shot. Okay, let's welcome in Eric Francis on this Thanksgiving day. All turquied out. Today or yesterday, Eric? Tonight. Tonight.

Ooh. Ooh. Something's in the oven. All right. We really appreciate you joining us on a day like this, especially when it's coming off the Battle of Alberta, one that has us perplexed, to say the least. Where are your thoughts now on, I mean,

do you want to go Calgary first and the fact that they're off to a much better start than anyone anticipated? Or for the second straight season, a very horrific start for the Edmonton Oilers? Always start with Calgary, Kipper. Come on, man. I should have known better.

Yeah, yeah. I'm a little biased. Yeah, I heard you guys saying, like, what's a bigger shock? I don't know. But we were joking going into the game that i think when we saw the schedule in the summer we assumed going into the battle of alberta one team would be two and oh and the other team would be oh and two i just don't think anyone

thought it would be the other way around uh look calgary give them full marks you know they've really you know been fueled by all the preseason predictions that they were not a playoff team. And they've kind of taken that in-house and said, look, no one thinks we can do this. Let's just be the hardest team to play against in the league. That's kind of one of their goals. Let's be one of the hardest working teams. Ryan Husker, their coach, there's a ton of credit.

He established that last year. And that's kind of how they're doing this but I'm looking at the stats guys like I know I've covered all three games I've been there but like to look at the stats nine guys have at least a point per game 14 guys have a point like I think people wondered if goals would be hard to come by here but they're doing doing it by committee, and they're scoring in bushels. Six goals their first game, six the next game, then four against the preseason cup favorites. It's pretty impressive.

No one's talking about how good their goaltending's been, but it's been good too. They've got a lot of things going for them right now. We'll see. We're three games in. Well, that's the big question as a viewer here is you know is it possible that with these preseason predictions and all that that we miss something is there something with this flames team where you say there might be something sustainable here where huberto to have a good year and codry to have a good year and weger to be what they thought

like is there a chance that this is a team that could compete for a playoff spot this year okay Okay, so it's a great question, and it's what we've been asking ourselves the last three days, but also the last three months. The forward ranks, guys, it's actually pretty solid. And the way they've distributed, you know, no one's playing a role that's above their head. You know, you guys know that if you're slotted properly and you're playing the role that you should be playing, you know, it really helps the team's cause. The question, guys, is in net. Like, it's a bit of a revamped blue line.

There are three veterans in there, and there's a bunch of guys who are kind of trying to prove they belong. And when you have a revamped blue line in front of two guys who've combined for, I think, 95 NHL games in their career. You know, Dustin Wolf's only played, like, I think, 15, 16. You know, that's a lot to ask two guys who've never been starters to carry the load for a franchise that's kind of in transition. So that will still be the question moving forward. Early signs are positive. Both have played really, really well. Even in the game they won 6-5 in

Vancouver I thought Dan Ladar kind of had one of those Grant Fure nights like okay I've let in five but I'm not letting him pick and he made some pretty big saves so yeah it's the goaltending that's going to be the question mark and the reason why I think so many predicted that this team if they didn't trade Jacob Marks from in the offseason I think a lot of the predictions might have been different but because they did I think it's legitimate to worry about those two goalies so we assume Wolves the the goalie of the future but right now do you just see them going back and forth if one gets a little hot do you see an extension of two or three four starts in a row or you know do you not put that much pressure on either one of them? You know, they won't talk about what their plan is

because I don't think they really have a plan. I think, to be honest, they're going to go by gut. They're going to go by feel. You know, I've asked them if it's kind of win and stay in. I don't think it'll be that simple. But I think think generally speaking, you go on a bit of a roll, you're going to get the lion's share of starts

until you are not on a roll anymore. But also with today's schedule, you guys know, like, I mean, so much of it is dictated by how your schedule plays out. So, you know, the only thing they knew for sure about a week into camp was Vladar's going to start the season. And after that that I honestly think they don't have a clue I think generally speaking it'll be a 50-50 split but what will

be very interesting as we get close to the trade deadline is you know Dan Vladar is an unrestricted free agent Dustin Wolfe is the goalie of the future and they've got Cooley is their third stringer he's not a one-way deal next year so pretty much set in stone that it's Cooley is their third stringer. He's on a one-way deal next year, so pretty much set in stone that it's Cooley and Wolfe next year. So what do you do with Vladar, especially if he's having a really good year? You flip him for more assets, or do you sign him at a time when you're giving the crease basically to Wolfe down

the road? So I don't know. These are all decisions they'll have to make as the season goes on, but they can make those decisions tough if Dan Vladar has a really great season. I do want to ask you about Anthony Mantha because when he's on, I mean, it's tantalizing, right? There's a guy. Actually, let's just do Mantha first.

We'll get to the other guy. The Mantha thing is like this guy has frustrated people all over because he can kind of do it all. He had a Gordie Howe hat trick the other night. It does seem like one of the places where I look at this team and go, hey, if he's the guy we thought he could be, then there's found money for real. Yeah.

Good point. And they brought him in for one reason. And that was to be, you know, a compliment to Jonathan Huberto. That was the one thing they did that they said they would do. They would go get somebody who they handpicked that they thought could get the best out of Jonathan Huberto.

That's why he's here. They put Martin Pospisko in between them, which is a bit of an experiment because he hasn't played center in the NHL. So far, so good. But, yeah, Manta, they basically tasked him with shooting the puck on that 300 times this year. No flame has done that since Jerome McGinnis. That's a lot to ask. But they want him to be in that shoot-first mentality.

And, again, so far so far so good he had a gordie howe hat trick in his first game uh last night he had the game winner um he's fit in very well but he knows the knock on him is his consistency or his lack thereof so if he can iron that out then they'll have another massive trade ship to dangle at the trade deadline. Or do you keep him if he's helped get Huberto out of his funk, then maybe you have to keep him and then consider signing him to a longer term deal. Again, it's three games in. The early returns are good, though. No funk yet for Jonathan.

Three goals, two assists, plus one. What have you seen early that you haven't seen necessarily last year it just can't be a great offseason trade no training come on there's got to be more to what he's been able to do to start this season well okay so he did see it some sports psychologists this summer for the first time he's never done that in the off season. So that's one thing. Second was condition. He worked more on explosive speed as opposed to top end speed. You know,

in today's younger game, you've got to be able to dart in and out. But, but that aside, I think guys like, look, Jonathan Uber, though,

if you get 115 points in this league, and I don't care who you're playing with, you're not, you're not a 55 point guy or 53 point guys has been the last two years somewhere in the middle is probably who you are and I do think eventually you know once you just cut through the mental uh part of this physically you're just going to be able to get back to a point of game and I think that's that's kind of what he's aiming for and I think everyone would be happy if he got back to a point of a game so I just think that after two years of incredible pressure he's put on himself

and then when things weren't going well, it just compounds and gets worse and worse. I think he's finally just come in. And I thought he said it really well the other day. He says, people look at me and say, well, this is all he's ever going to be, like a 55-point guy. That's who he is. He goes, you know, I'm better now. I'm going to show it. And I'm not going to put too much pressure on myself so i don't know mentally i just think he's in a better spot

so you've had front row seats to the edmonton oilers roller coaster last year terrible and then awesome at the end uh terrible now to begin again that's why he's on the show if the oilers were to one last night he he would have said, no, not on Thanksgiving. But now he gets to gloat about the Oilers' horrible start. Give us your perspective on what's going on with the Oilers. I, you know, McDavid and Drysdale haven't gotten going. Let me preface all of it by, you know, I get there last night and talking to some of my colleagues from Edmonton.

They're all like, oh, man, this is bad. I said, guys, last year you went a month and a half and your team was terrible. And then it was time to start panicking. Potentially, we're two games in. Now we're three games in. I'm not saying you should be happy about the way it started, but hey, there's plenty of runway here. And as they proved last year, you don't have to win the division. You just got to get into the playoffs and get on a roll from there.

And they'll do that. I'm still confident that the others will do that. But there is a theory in Edmonton, and I do share it, that they did, of the players they lost, a lot of them were young, speedy players. I know they had a Jeff Skinner, but he's old speedy. You know, you lose some guys that, you know, Fogle had speed and brought a lot of it every night. And you look at so many other players that they don't have anymore,

that the one element they did bring was speed. And that's a concern for a lot of the locals, that they just don't have the speed that is so required in today's game. Obviously, McDavid's got speed, drive, flat-out speed. All these other guys are pretty damn good hockey players too. But that young speed is a bit of an issue. And at the end of the day, like McDavid last night, if you notice the Rasmus Andersen goal, he danced around McDavid.

He made McDavid look like McDavid has made defensemen look all through his career. It was a bit of payback for all the defensemen in the National Hockey League last night. McDavid defensively has not been good either. And those guys have always said, McDavid and Drysdale, they're the ones who need to buy in defensively or else this whole thing doesn't work.

They did it last year when it mattered most. And I think once they start doing it again, I think they'll be better. Yeah, it is a little bit baffling trying to figure that out, but the speed thing is interesting. Is it Holloway and Fogle and Broberg? Those are all pretty good skaters that they're finding themselves without. How do you handicap the rest of that Pacific division there?

Are you as high on the Canucks as you were last year? Oh. that Pacific division there, are you as high on the Canucks as you were last year? Oh, no. No, I'm not as high as I was on them last year. I thought they had a hell of a year. They're a hell of a team, don't get me wrong. I think they're going to be right there challenging for the division lead, if not leading it. You know, I think Utah,

I'm actually a believer that they've finally turned the page and with the momentum of a new building a new owner a new scenario i think that's been pretty powerful kind of like we saw with vegas their first year and and i i'm a believer that they're going to stay in this playoff race uh right up to the end there um you know in terms of handicapping the rest of it you know winnipeg's a hell of a team, too. I know they're not in the Pacific, but the West is so tough. There's so much competition here. You know, I guess the biggest question for me would be, as someone who's in the weeds every day with these guys, is can the Flames stay in this race? And, you know, traditionally, whether they're counted out or not,

they are always right in that mushy middle and will be there right until the end. It's a little too early to predict whether the Flames can keep this sort of stuff up, but it's a good start. I would say that at this point, if you give me one team that I still think is the team to beat, I still think the Oilers are the team that's going to win the division. I really do believe that.

The other thing too is, just to get back on Calgary a little bit, it just seems to me like there's a little bit of a house money kind of feel for them. Yeah. It's just upside here. I think about even the pressure of a Seattle Kraken

that, you know, you go out there, you make a couple changes, you add to the roster, you make some commitments on contracts. The pressure of Vegas winning early for Seattle, they've got some heat on them too. And, you know, LA Kings were in a miserable game this afternoon. They're supposed to move forward in the Pacific as well. But with Calgary, it just seems like, you know,

if the gap is narrowed in terms of from best to worst, they could keep themselves in it. Yeah, again, you talked even like Don Maloney, who runs the whole thing here in Calgary. He basically said to me, it's all going to come down to goaltending. It really is that important. And that's important in every city. And when I talk about the Oilers, obviously that's been one of their biggest problems right now is their

goaltending has been atrocious. And, you know, I still think they have lots of time to turn that around. But, yeah, listen, the momentum you get early. Michael Backlund going into the season kept talking about the Flames from 2014-15. So 10 years ago, a team that was counted out. Everyone thought they were, you know, they had too many young guys. And Michael Backlund just kept seeing the parallels all through training camp.

And just that was the year Johnny Gaudreau was a rookie. Sean Monahan was in his second year. Sam Bennett was a rookie. But you didn't know what you had with these guys. Calgary Flames have three guys. I'm not going to compare them to those three, but Sam Honzak had the best camp of anybody in Calgary this year and made the team as a 19-year-old.

You got some second-year guys. Conor Zeri has been incredible so far. And Martin Postle centering the first line. So maybe the sky is the limit for these guys who can carry the team and be the core of this team moving forward. Listen, whether they make the playoffs or not, there's actually quite a lot of excitement in Calgary right now that some of the core pieces, the young guys, really have some talent

and they could carry this franchise for a lot of years moving forward. What's the core messaging from that coaching staff there? What are they making the focus for this team? Hard work. You know, hard work. Let's just be the hardest team to play against in the league. And, you know, I really give Ryan Husker credit. Last year when Rome was crumbling and they had to trade away five of their core veterans, basically five of their best players, they still maintained that work ethic.

They never gave up. And that's kind of the hallmark of this team right now. It has been last year. And if they can combine, you you know an improved lineup with the youthful exuberance that mix between veterans and youngsters and good goal setting then yeah that's you combine all those things this team could be in the playoffs there's no question but you know that's a lot to ask there's a lot of different things they've got to do for everything to fall into place but the one thing is the standard and michael backland and this ownership

group there's six of them and they talk about it all the time. Those six guys say that is not negotiable. The way we work and the way we play in terms of our effort is not negotiable. If you falter in that way, there's lots of guys waiting on the sideline to take your job. Eric, before we let you go, just get your early thoughts on what is starting to become a hot-button topic around the National Hockey League, and this is goaltender interference. Corey Perry's disallowed goal from a Calgary point of view. Give me your thoughts on that call and what's kind of transpired early in this season when it comes to goaltender interference.

Guys, we've all been around long enough to not be surprised. Well, we shouldn't be surprised that a goal interference call one way or the other, right? Just when we think we got it figured out, we don't. It's hard. It's a judgment call. I couldn't believe that they challenged it. I couldn't believe that the league

was considering overturning it. And then I was stunned that they actually did. I went straight to Dan Vladar after the game and i asked him what he saw or felt on that play and he said i thought it was a normal goal when the goalie is telling you after the game that he thought it was a normal goal we got a bit of a problem he said once he saw the overhead he thought that there was contact i'm like well you didn't feel the contact? His blocker did get stuck on Perry for a split second. Listen, I don't like the call.

I like the game. What was the ruling was he had a significant presence in front of the net or significant presence in the crease. I'm like, yeah, Corey Perry's had a significant presence in the crease for 15 years, and I like that I think it's important to still have those net front battles and so I don't like the call I'm not coming down on the league it's a tough decision to make but I full marks to Jamie Pringle the video coach for seeing what he saw and knowing in his heart that it was worth challenging look if he if he's wrong, that's a two nothing game.

And you're going, you're killing a penalty against the best power play in the history of the game. I don't like your chances. So that was a ballsy call and somehow he kind of had a feel that that's what they were going to call it. Did you guys see that as being something that could possibly overturn? Yes. You did. Really? Yeah. Only for one reason. that as being something that could possibly overturn yes you did it really yeah only for

one reason cory perry yeah okay that's not that's not a call that's that's not a normal call that's a call against cory perry yeah fair and you you substitute c substitute Corey Perry for anyone else, and there's a very good chance that's a good goal because this guy has made, as you had said, a career out of it, and he's been talked to. He's been warned. There's been ample time when they've gone to Corey Perry and say, hey, you're flying too close to the sun, my friend. Yeah. That was discussed

up in the press box last night. We're like, that's got to be a reputation call. And I guess that's fair. I mean, you'd like to think that everybody gets treated equally, but with a history and a rap sheet like his, I get it. Maybe it's just an inherent bias.

But yeah, I i couldn't believe uh after watching the video and and again guys that review took a long time and you ultimately when it ends when that little scrum between the two reps ends you're thinking they looked at it for so long that eventually they looked eventually they looked at each other and went i just don't see it we have we can't overturn whatever the call was. But they came back and they made the ballsy move to decide to overturn it. Anyway, is it a dangerous precedent? That's another question I'll basically throw back at you.

Corey Perry or not, is that a dangerous precedent? Because now every goalie is going to be out there flopping even more than ever before if they see something like that get rewarded. Yeah, I don't see goalies trying to oversell it either because, again, you don't want to be labeled as a flopper, as a diver, as an embellisher. So I think play it to stop it and let everything else rest in the hands of an official or the league office.

And you know what, though? Maybe there's more of a positive precedent that it's, you can't have your skates in the blue. You know, that's the message to all skaters is you can't have your skates in the blue, and we're sending that message to start the year, and, you know, off we go from there. You can as long as you don't impede the goalie. That's it.

You can have skates in there, but I think there was enough contact between Perry and... And that was enough. It was just enough. And you're Corey Perry. Sorry. And Dan Vlodar is not a flopper or a guy who tries to embellish

or anything like that. And if you watch the replay, which we've all done a hundred times, he doesn't react at all, which goes in line with him saying after the game, I thought it was a normal goal. You know, good on him for not embellishing or anything like that. It can work against you as a goal. And listen, a game before, Dambladar lost his mask. A puck hit him, and his mask got dislodged,

and the opposing team, Philadelphia, was it? No, it was Vancouver, immediately put it in the empty net. And I thought for sure they were going to disallow the goal, but you look at the rules and you see clearly, as long as the opposition still has a good scoring chance, you don't blow the whistle right away, even if it is a dangerous situation for the goalie. Anyway, tough job for the officials.

I guess they got it right last night, but I don't want to see more of that. I really don't. Enjoy your turkey, my friend. Cheers, boys. Always good to talk to you. We'll talk soon. You too. Thanks a lot, man. Appreciate your time today. He is Eric Francis, senior columnist, analyst with sports net

you have a any confusion over the goalie interference stuff i think that people make too big a deal out of it i think it's a tough call oh listen you get a goal disallowed it's a big deal no it's a big deal for a fan base each one is worth conversation but there's all these people and maybe we've done it already where they pull their hair out and they go you just you don't know what's going to be what anymore i mean i everyone you watch i think you can see what the i mean the guy was in the crease and touched the goalie i think we're like where did that come from it's like he's in the crease he touched the goalie that's where it came from yeah um but you know i think they're the thing that upsets people and a lot of rules in the NHL is gray area.

And there's a ton of gray area. That's the point, though, is that they're tough calls. But that one on Perry is a disgrace. Like, it's truly a horrible call. It touches them with a stick, and then the play is gone. It didn't affect the play. Not even close. So if that's goal interference, if you don't want any of that, just go back to Brett Hall days.

Foot in the crease, not allowed. You just can't beat it. No, see, I hate that. I hate that dramatic. That just gave me like the heebie-jeebies. But that's what it basically is now. This is what I'm railing against. People like you go,

oh, it's just impossible to figure out, so just hard line on it. And it's like, yeah, I know you don't want to go back to that. It's worse. It's worse than worse? Oh, my gosh. Yes, it's worse.

Oh, we're pretty much doing that now. So embarrassing. Sam, you you're gonna slow the video down to a fraction of a hair be like i think his metal was touching the blue that's better it was in the crease they've got they score they got six angles to understand if it was goaltender interference or not they're fine they're doing the best they can it's done you can't you can't you gotta give a goalie a chance to get to the top of his blue without being touched. And like the one today in Ottawa. That's fair, Sammy. Okay. Listen, I'm not, I'm the least goalie guy.

You know, I like to nudge him every once in a while. Oh, goalies. Well. Boo them. But I, I need to back up the goalies here. The blue paint's mine. You cannot, his feet were in the blue paint when there was contact. But you're allowed to be in the blue paint.

But you can't touch the goalie while he's goal-tending. But the goalie's supposed to be up against his post if you're in the blue? You cannot be in the blue paint if it keeps me from going out as far as I can in the blue paint. I thought that was a screen. No, it's a screen when you're on top of the blue paint. Okay, so just make it. But then, you guys are just arguing for no feet in the crease no i'm not i'm saying you can be in the crease you can't touch the goal but if cory perry

is standing there with his feet and butt just inside the blue yes and the goalie comes out yes and runs into him that's gold thinner affair correct but then you shouldn't be allowed in the crease ever but if he stays if he stays on a tip of puck if he stays deep in his net it's a good goal. Sure, he can stay there. Because you made no attempt to try to come out. But if you were there and the goalie comes out and makes contact with you, then it's going to be correct.

This is a stupid league. It makes perfect sense. Go back to Brett Hall days. Go back to Brett Hall days. We saw a good goal on a redirect in the Ottawa game. Which was way more goal-tender interference than the one Corey Perry did. Which was Clark for L.A. It got called back because there was goaltender contact

and the puck had not entered the net yet. It hadn't gone in yet when he hit the goalie. If Clark redirected the puck into the net and then made goalie contact, that would have been a good goal. But it hit the post, and then the goal attending contact, and then it went in the net. Therefore, it got waved off. But the one that there was another review later

when Giroux scores a beautiful goal, kicks it up off his boot, backhand, top corner. The guy flows. I don't know who it was that flew by touched his glove touched his pad kind of pulled him a little bit to that way and that's a good goal but the implication is that the goalie wasn't impeded from his movement and he moved to the right to try to make the jerusalem listen these goalies have the most of gear on out of everybody they're out there playing hockey too like you nudge them with your butt it's like y'all that can't count

it's absurd but he other leagues absurd. Other leaves protect their quarterback. You can breathe on the guy. Yeah, but he doesn't have the most gear on. The goalie has the most gear on. They get treated like they're out there with like Jacques Plante days with little pillows and no mask on. It's the nudge part that you're asking to. I want a nudge.

I don't want. I don't want Brett Holdings. I don't want that. Where is the range on the nudge, though? Like who draws the line on what's a nudge. I don't want Brett Holdings. I don't want that. Where is the range on the nudge, though? Like, who draws the line on what's a nudge and what's like? That's the problem. That's the whole problem because every single person sees it differently. So you go back and you review it, and it's five different people on different nights,

and then you see it differently, so there's no consistency. I don't care if there's a nudge on the goalie. But with the NHL, there will be consistency, right? Because there's the same people making those decisions in Toronto it's not every night, they don't work every night they get a couple days off, somebody else has got to go in there I don't know how many staff are making the decision

but it can't be more than a half dozen people there's going to be some general consistency there it's a hard job it's impossible before we go to break, we've got to have this conversation what the hell is wrong with Edmonton Oilers? Oh, my God. You want to go?

Well, I, you know, Francis mentioned it, and I've heard it from a number of people, that, you know, you lose Warren Fogle and Dylan Holloway and Ryan McLeod and everyone who is young and fast, and all of a sudden you look a little bit more plodding. Their D, still not, you know. A lot of Emberson. A lot of Emberson. A lot of emberson a lot of emberson their d is worse yeah than it was let's take a look oh no no no no that's their d is not as

strong as the one that left stature nurse dermot they've got okay atermot. Okay. Ekholm is all world. Elite. Elite. Ekholm. Ekholm. That's it. In their own zone, that's it. No one would say Bouchard is a defensive stalwart or Dermot or Stature. Nurse.

So what's the issue? Maybe he's pretty good defensively. They're spending way too much time trying to defend in their own zone. Their offense is dry, which means they're not spending as much time trying to defend in their own zone their offense is dry which means they're not spending as much time in the offensive zone which means more time in their own zone more time for average defenders now and i'm telling you i never thought i'd say this but they missed cody cecil a little bit no i'm telling you i'm telling you the You're right. I'm telling you. I thought the same thing. I thought the same thing. You said Emberson. I mean, you know, Dermott, Kulak.

Somebody needs to step up and be a second pair guy. Yeah. I mean, which one of those guys is going to do it? Which guy? I also do think, and we've got a couple clips here from the Oilers, so we can play them, and they kind of allude to it. It's something I see. Like, the last game these guys played before the start of this season

was legitimately the most important game of all their lives, and they lose it. And I think, was it BX that was talking about it in the intermission on Hockey Night in Canada? It was an excellent take about how you want to fast forward to that again. It's hard to play these games right out of the, and I feel that with them. Like the lack of urgency.

We can play the clips, like listen to McDavid in this clip, in clip one from McDavid. Are you guys up to the emotional level and playing with the intensity you need to right now, or is that something that's... No, probably not. Yeah, probably not. You know, we're getting beat, getting beat in a lot of battles,

getting beat in a lot of different ways. in a lot of different ways yeah pretty down pretty down no i i totally think that's it too where you're just like i just can't this doesn't matter enough for me right now i've had the good stuff and what you've been doing you've started seasons like you know it's not your first or second year in the league you've been around nine or ten years so i i get it but to sit there and say you're not emotionally uh you know invested in the start of the season i think it's a bit of a crock do you want to hear i do yeah when the coach talk about it coach mentioned it too so let's hear the knob up clip there derrick obviously we have to play with more desperation and i think when you had a season like we did last year and coming back and the expectations being really high, I don't think there's enough desperation.

I think we can just show up, play hockey, that's good enough. But this game's about playing with desperation. And right now we're lacking that. No one expects him to hit the high note, but you're way better than this. Yep. Great, great observation. Is that Leon? That's such a good drop.

So just... McDavid, Hyman, Nugent-Hopkins, Dreisaitl, Arvvidson, Henrique, Brown, you know, Yanmark, Perry. Like, this is a hockey team up front. Yeah. Deep core's hurting. Listen, you know, is Zach Hyman going to score 50 again?

I don't know. You think he should be able to with that high-octane offense, but that's not a given. Right? Bouchard was on fire in the second half of the season. Now, all of a sudden, players' expectations. Is this contract here for him one more? Is he getting as many pucks through to the net like he did before? Are they zeroing in on him?

Four-year, right. So, things change. Mm-hmm. And you got to change with it. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, it's crazy, though. You hope they don't dig the hole too deep here,

because last year was frustrating watching. What does Bouchard have left on his deal? Is it this year plus two more, or is it this year and next year? Because all I heard all season long was besides dry sidle they're gonna have to pay him 10 million dollars and i'm like when do they have to pay him 10 million dollars this is the last year of his deal 3.9 this year and that's it and then rfa rfa and then rfa so they could sign him today so you think he's sour at all that you know he's didn't get an extension if he is he shouldn't be right like there's no

like no one's obligated to give you 10 million dollars and surely he's not gonna get 10 is he that's what his numbers support i guess if you're a 90 plus can you string another season like that that's a lot of pressure on you it's a lot of pressure yeah yeah and the goaltending and the goaltending too it's not like they're getting a save when they need it too did you did you watch the the chicago game the goal that um the backup is escaping me right now the goalie for the oilers backup on the card picker i don't know who it was that fired it just oh seth jones just right through his crest yeah on the power play like oh boy you see and points out how good the least goaltending is quickly before we go to break

i'll do game time after but i did want to mention justin kirkland on the flames uh scored a goal last night beautiful goal his nickname's costco i don't know my name should be justin kirkland justin kirkland nickname costco excellent this a story. You should read his story. Drafted by the Preds, eight years in the HL, ECHL, missed time after suffering head trauma from a severe car accident, and then scores his first NHL goal 10 years into his pro career last night. Amazing. How do you not love any? Costco is the best nickname in the world.

Smoke dry saddle. Smoke dry saddle. So I just wanted to mention that before we went to break. Anyways. Shout out to Costco. Kirkland. Golf clubs. Golf clubs. Yeah. Shout out Costco. Kirkland Golf Clubs. Or golf gloves.

Everyone's charging like $30, $40 at pro shops. Go in there and they're like $10 each. If we're doing shameless call-outs here, CCM, if you want to send me a pair of your new CCM tacks, it'd be lovely. Have you seen

the new tacks? I've been a Bauer guy. I have graphs, but the CCM tacks. It'd be lovely. Have you seen the new tacks? I've been a Bauer guy. I have graphs, but the CCM tacks are unbelievable. They look so good. They're starting to bust my balls at morning skate too. That's the old wheels? Yeah. Creaky? A little creaky?

The show could use a set of wheels. We're working on Thanksgiving money. The least you can do is send us three pairs of skates. Holy. Shameless. Hey, we're working on Thanksgiving money. The least he can do is send us three pairs of skates. Holy. God, Sammy. Shameless plugs. He is shameless. Okay, let's take a quick break,

and then we'll come back with some game notes and thoughts. We've got a few here, and game time as well, Sammy. Okay, more of Real Kipper and Born after these words. Hey, it's Ben Ennis. And I'm Brent Cunning. We got you covered on all things, Leafs, Raptors,

and blue Jays every weekday morning, six to nine. It's the fan morning show sports net five, nine to the fan and wherever you get your podcasts. Nick Kipris, Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee. This hour, Real Kipper and Bourne brought to you by Bet365. Sammy, we got a little game time going. It's game time presented by Bet365.

Visit the app, Play the Stars, and find out why it's never ordinary. Bet365 must be 19 plus. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. So some baseball for you in game time uh there's a game going on right now the new york mets are absolutely starching the la dodgers six nothing and at the top of the fifth go mets can't stand the dodgers subway series uh so what i'm doing the tonight the alcs gets underway 7 30 in the bronx uh cleveland guardians there to

start that series. A lot of Canadians on the Guardians. Josh Naylor, first baseman. He's like one of their best players. I just don't want the Guardians. You know, it's just math. Yankees are way sexier in the World Series than the Guardians. I think Aaron Judge, who has been underperforming in the playoffs so far this season,

I think he's going to hit a home run tonight at plus 350. So there you go. New York Islanders in colorado tonight uh on sportsnet plus it's plus 135 the new york islanders versus colorado avalanche minus 160 colorado have been putrid to start the year they like you i think you said a tweet about the goal differentials they're minus six they've been bad uh islanders haven't been as bad to start so i'm gonna to hop on Give me the dog, New York Islanders Patrick was, first time back in Colorado Even more, even more

Give me the New York Islanders, money on the board For old Patrick, guaranteed So give me that And my last thing for tonight Sidney Crosby is one point away From 1600 for him In his illustrious career It's a miracle he didn't get it against the Leafs

That's truly one of the craziest things That's ever happened that he didn't get it. He's against the Montreal Canadiens, his boyhood team. Give me a Sidney Crosby anytime goal tonight plus 140 for the 1,600. I think Pitt's going to mop Montreal. Was there signs Saturday night, Pittsburgh versus the Leafs, where you just said, that's going to be a long year. You guys were not into the Penguins.

What do you think? Let me close off. You okay? I don't think they're as bad as you guys. Let me close off game time. We'll have a Pittsburgh Penguins conversation. And that was game time presented by Bet365. Visit the app's latest odds

and find out why it's never ordinary at Bet365. Must be 19 plus. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. Okay. So there's still life in the malkin couple assists hit a huge milestone yeah for career assists i get that but like can this guy still lead malkin yeah i don't know is leading your concern i mean why if he can't lead then get the hell out of the way that's like he's won cups we know he's not an impediment today today can he still lead the

pittsburgh penguins i don't know can you shoot it in the net enough i know his play uh is historically yeah but today can he still lead them can he get them into playoffs? I assume you signed all these guys and brought them back because you still think that they can. I mean, last year he's, you know, almost 30 goals, 67 points. He's still useful. This year he's got four assists in three games. Not, you know, not too terrible. I don't know.

Like, I just, there's enough good players on that team that I don't think they're terrible. Even when you go to the bottom of their lineup and it's like Achari and Bavillier and they got that Magrordy now. And I don't know. I just think they're okay. I don't think they're that bad.

This is like a bizarro world Leafs team to me with Dubas where they have their stars, but they're older. And the rest of the guys, I couldn't pick out of a lineup. Like, they all just are playing the exact same game out there there's no that that's a good point there's no difference between any of them they're all just kind of flying around and like trying to kill like what's the like you know i always say identity and it's a thing that gets overplayed but what is the identity of their team it's sid and malcolm and yeah and it's it's they're carlson i guess

in the first i i just i don't know what they do the bottom half of their lineup. It's Sid and Malkin. And it's Carlson, I guess. I don't know what they do. The bottom half of their lineup is the most dubious thing to me, where I have no idea what any of them do. Jari, going to get them there? No. Not for me either. Bloomquist or the backups are already talking about him stealing their job. Jari, what did he

have for numbers last week? Not pretty, right? I want to get into this because it is buffalo sabers saturday uh big win against the florida panthers 5-2 lindy ruff's first win back thinking they kind of feel good about it okay oh my god then they have a practice and their captain daline gets it in he gets into a fight with krebs lights up krebs wasn't just a fight he threw a raw blade drop check on gloves at practice they were separated by teammates um and it wasn't just a little bit of a skirmish, man. There were some haymakers. Right? Yeah.

Did you see the same thing? I did. I watched it. Yeah. Okay. Absolutely. All right. Yeah.

So, like, where are you on that? Because. Wow. Two thumbs up. You Neanderthal. No, two thumbs up. Buddy, I got two thumbs down. Yeah.

I thought you might. Yeah. I thought you wouldn't like that. There's only only one reason why i don't like it let's have it could have hurt the kid no what because you're you're it's your captain right yeah damn it i should have guessed that i knew you were just that's not a captain like for me complete opposite someone has to grab that team by the whatever words you're allowed to say on the air. But he's just won 5-2. You got a decent feeling. Yeah, and he's not impressed.

So there was some history with practice. And I think Lindy kind of clarified that. I can read the quote to you. Okay, go ahead. Boys will be boys is how he started it off. Raz got bumped before. And then they evened up the score. Wouldn't read too much into that.

We want competitive practices. You want your captain teeing off on someone's face in practice? I don't know if you want that. I think you want the message that I give a damn, and I care, and that practice matters. There's so many different ways you could do that. For sure. To physically go and try to hurt a guy, to even up a score of being bumped prior to

that well it might be okay for others but not your captain i don't know what happened before this and i am under the i'm operating under the assumption that he didn't get bumped that he said that it was something that he perceived as a dirty something or other and you you got as a as a leader and a captain you got to rise above that you got to pull them off to the side and you got to say listen you're trying to hurt me you're trying to hurt our teammates are we not in this together you don't even if even if Krebs took a run at Darlene that behavior is unacceptable that's your captain no if he takes a run at him that's unacceptable taking a run at Darlene, that behavior is unacceptable. That's your captain. No, if he takes a run at him, that's unacceptable.

Taking a run at your captain, that would be unacceptable. Totally. And I want my captain to say, F you. But don't tell him F you or take him for lunch. Go talk to him in the equipment room. But to go out there and try to maybe take his knee out or throw a haymaker at him is not captain material one and three in the best division in the nhl and he's sick of them being pathetic pushovers and i'm fine they get the temperature up and no that's not boys being boys that's just

a guy that um doesn't know how to lead yet. Maybe it's that. Maybe it's that that team needs a little defibrillator, and he sees that. Where's the... Maybe Krebs, who's been traded a couple times by 22 years old, maybe he's an issue. So Krebs goes back and says, yeah, you're right. I deserve that, right?

I mean, where's the common ground to come out of Darlene going to try to fight him? Maybe the next time the puck goes in the corner and it's not Darlene and it's not Krebs, but it's two guys on the Sabres, there's an understanding that we're competitive here. We got a different view of leadership. Yeah. But didn't, what was the guy that went to colorado middle stat yeah he's like boy these guys practice hard here yeah and maybe he's maybe the sabers are finally like

maybe we should practice hard for once take this up a degree i'm stuck right between you two so i can't even really wait like i just i like that he was fiery but maybe he went too far the the rob blake 98 hip check and practice probably isn't the best move. I hear people saying hip check. I mean, he hits him in the belly. Even the check, I'm fine with the check. And then you want a skirmish. You want to say your piece. Guys need to get in there. Like, where are the guys closer to just say?

You don't let teammates take aim makers. The punches were a little intense. They were. He's punching downhill at a guy. Come on. We've all been in skirmishes, and there's tussles, and there's a lot of FUs to each other, and that's all great, but, like, haymakers against your own teammate?

No. No, not good. Not cool. Do you know my... I'm just watching it again. It's a violent exchange. Do you know my college captain ended up in an orange jumpsuit on the news because he punched one of my teammates clean in the jaw off the ice

for being late for an event we had. Kid walked in. So how did it get to police? It ended up being an assault. I know, but somebody has to report it. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what the, but it was like literally that night. Wasn't me.

Don't be that guy. No, no, it wasn't me. Who did, who did Garen get in practice? Draney, Brett Draney. Yeah, where he like. I was like, don't run the veterans in preseason. Tomahawk chop. I think Bill wants that.

Sorry. Prior to today's game, the new $8.25 million goalie for the Ottawa Senators pulled himself or Ottawa told him not to play because he had stiffness, which was later explained as a strain. So I'm sitting there going. Hey, they won today. What happened? They won.

Who cares? 8-7. Oh, they let in seven. Eight down in their goal. Seven. Both of them played. The other two played. So Travis Green on a pregame show said, what is it?

Linus? Linus. Linus was stiff. We don't feel right playing him. We want to check them out, make sure that the doctors are good and we are on the side of caution. Bring me Valley. But like,

yeah, it's your three games in stiffness. Really? And it's soft tissue. Like this is what Valaket has said before is within the goaltenders control like it what does he just say that's a long season i don't i'm not pushing myself i guess that's what he said here yeah but it is it's just funny given multiple people on this show guests have said they're not sure if Allmark is an everyday kind of goalie.

At least they scored eight at the right time today. That was a horrific display of defense and goaltending today in Ottawa. Yeah, a couple of PK coaches having a drink right now. We can talk to Valli about it tomorrow. Coming on tomorrow. Yes. So we can have a little chat with him about what's going on. We're going to try to visit with Valley consistently this year. Yes.

This year we're going deep in the Valley. Deep in the Valley. I think that might be a segment name here soon. Head into the Valley. What do we have on tap tonight? What's the big Prime game? Montreal and Pitt. Yes.

That's the first Monday night on prime. So check out and use your streaming service and check that out. Some love to the Montreal Canadiens for a decent start. Yeah. Good for you. That's it? That's all you want to know there, Sammy? Lane Hudson is the real deal

Holyfield. He just moves so much. He looks like he's doing too much right now. He would drive me nuts. He just moves so much. He looks like he's doing too much out there. He would drive me nuts. Just too much. He would drive me nuts. And Detroit Red Wings. Not to the point where I'd fight him in practice. He would drive me nuts. Sportsnet Plus.

Detroit Red Wings and New York Rangers. The Detroit Red Wings waived Billy Huso. And he cleared. And he cleared. What's going on there? That's a bad call. Oh yeah. Coming out of St. Louis.'s a bad call, eh? Oh, yeah. Coming out of St. Louis? Yeah, yeah. Whoopsies.

All right. Our thanks to Luke Fox in our first hour of our Leaf edition of our program. And then Eric Francis on our national. If you get a chance, couldn't catch us live, download us. Watch us on YouTube as well. And if you get a chance, Spotify, any of your podcasts, give us a rating and review. We'd love to hear from you. Have a great night, everybody.