Real Kyper & Bourne - What Will the Leafs Do with the First Overall Pick?

Episode Date: May 7, 2026

Justin Bourne and Sam McKee welcome guest host JD Bunkis to look back on an eventful week in Leafs Land. They discuss John Chayka's guarded comments on the Leafs' direction thus far, whether he and Sundin will truly have an equal partnership in the front office, and the various factors affecting what the team does with the first overall pick. Then, they weigh Gavin McKenna against Ivar Stenberg, and which makes more sense for the Leafs at the top of the draft. Finally, they discuss Craig Berube's job security heading into next season, whether his style matches with Chayka's analytics-first vision, and what the Leafs should do to convince Auston Matthews that they're headed in the right direction. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

Welcome in to Real Kipper and Bourne. My name is Justin Bourne. We are joined today, not by Nick Kiprios. We got J.D. Bunkus in the house, bunk. Thanks for joining. How are you? Good, good. What an upgrade. I know.

What a massive swing for the show. This is great. We got technical directors, Frank Brasca, and Derek Brandeo. We're live on Sportsnet 360, Sportsnet 590, the fan in Toronto. And streaming always on Sportsnet. Plus, if you miss our show live, you can always get it on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube. What's going on, man? Nothing, man.

Sam's here too. Sam, hello. Yeah, I'm back in my way more comfortable spot. I got it. You got the perch. I just, I hate over there. I hate over there. Why do you hate over here? I hate over there.

I don't know how to explain it. I hate it. This is my... The 10 feet of difference, it just changes my whole feeling. See, I feel the same way because I only ever sit here to do my show. So if you asked me to be in another swap? I'd feel thrown off. Let's try it.

I feel totally thrown off. The only thing that sucks is I feel like I'm supposed to lead the show. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's unnatural for me to do it. You definitely are much more of an age-hair type. A lot of questions in the YouTube chat about Kipper interviewing at the Leaves. Because it's now day two of him not around.

Yeah. When we were vague about where he was, he was in a Wendy's drive. He had a Wednesday's headset on. AGM or? Did you see that clip from our show yesterday of him on in the, he literally had like a hat on. Oh, yeah, I did see the clip where he was. Yeah. The Britney Spears microphone.

Would he have come on? if it wasn't for one pick? I don't know. No, probably not. Yeah, because I was going to say, one pick changes everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a call you on vacation.

Yeah, it changed a lot of things. That's like when I took work off, I had a big vacation planned, and then Kauai arrived in the helicopter, and we all thought he was returning, and I was like, well, I got to go back to work. He's in the helicopter. Like, I got to sit in there.

What a fool I was. Yeah, what the fool. God. Well, we were pleased that you joined us today. Thank you for the extra hour of your time. And what's really great, Leaves Talk, hasn't had a show in a while, on the playoffs this normally.

We've done shows together in May. Missed those shows. Those are really, I would say almost if you had to ask me my favorite things I've done at Sportsnet, post-leafs playoff win leaf talk. Boy, I said some on hinge things on there. Looking back. Looking back. There was some things that you may want a molligan on.

Yeah. Anyways. Those are a lot of fun. They are a lot of fun. Not as fun right now, but I do think it's a perfect opportunity to check in. We haven't actually talked since the last. Leafs hired John Chica and Matt's son, Dean, and got the first overall pick. I think you were like a lot of people with the Chica stuff where initial, I don't want to say,

well, no, I will say it, skepticism. He was curious. There's a lot of what is going on here. And then it happens. Since that happened, has anything changed for you about how you felt about it when you first found out? Do you feel differently now than you did when it was official, Chica's their guy? No. Not really.

Okay. Well, I would just say this. Like, I'm still pretty skeptical about the hire. Like, and I'm just, where I'm at with it, though, is I'm going to judge the moves that get made from this point forward. Like, what's the healthy way to look at it? Well, it's just like, what do you do? Because I think that where we kind of get and take culture is that, like, you cement your opinion on a thing. And my, here's, like, and this is really how I feel about it.

I don't know anything about Scott White. So on paper, the idea that they were going to get somebody from the Dallas organization who was, like under Jim Nill, I'm like, all right. That sounds good. Sure. If you would have told me that they were going to bring in Breezebois, right? Like they were going to get someone who was established or McFarland from Colorado. Yeah, clearly I think that there would have been a lot more evidence-based decision-making

there and that you could have felt more confident about that idea. But I will just say this. Like, I would say in terms of the last time I felt like a major feel about something with a front office. Because normally they come in and I'm kind of like, all right, let's see what you do. was Burke. And when Burke came in, I was like celebrating it with my friends.

I was in university. He comes in, he does the truculent speech. And I'm like, I'm LeBron James. You didn't feel about that with Lou? Because I'm really excited about Lou. I wasn't like,

again, for the most part, I don't get overly excited about the unveiling of a front office because it's like, all I've ever known with this hockey team is they lose. But,

but hold, just those guys did something beyond the hockey immediately. they changed the culture. Yes. Immediately it was a different, I knew they were more aggressive. I liked year one of Lou and I liked the idea

that they were bringing in this like massive brain trust. Right. And they came in there with a much clearer mandate than I think we've seen from anybody since, which was we are going to try and eviscerate blue and white disease. Yeah. And that sounded so appealing after such a long time where it really did feel like there were.

A rampant blue and white disease. Yeah. Yeah. like just oversized, I would say, celebrity status for a lot of different players, a malaise that had kind of set in with the franchise, with the organization. This was the first time, which, by the way, if you put yourself back there, how many years we had gone through where the Leafs were trying to be competitive, but they weren't good enough.

And they just, they couldn't figure out the salary cap. They're finishing ninth and tenth. Correct. Making runs at the end of the year to get worse draft days. Bingo. Bingo. And that's. Marty Gerber, all our favorites that got us back up into those spots. J.S. Chiguerre.

The J.O. Bang, the two J.S. Yeah, all the JAS is that juiced the number and ended up making the Leafs pick guys like Yuri Tolutsi, right? So, yeah, they were the first ones that sort of came in there and outlined at least a bit of a vision. That's the thing that I'm still, I would say most curious about with Cheika is, didn't really hear what the plan is. Like he talked about his vision and he was like,

it's not anything that's rocket science. I want to have puck moving defensemen. I tried to read a lot into that. It's a team that has some, you know, grit and, strength and high-end skill and talent. And I'm like, okay, but coming in here, it's very new, right? Like they're hired right away. But they also went through a lengthy interview process.

That was what, a month and a half? And so I would think that over a month and a half, you would be able to kind of like display a little bit more what it is exactly that got you this job. Like what it is exactly that you see with this organization as the major philosophical point that you want to drive moving forward? Because is it data? I don't think he's going to tell us. Like I think what we've already noticed

and we've talked about this offline, Bunkus, and we've talked about this two born, is that I don't think he's going to say anything. Sure, but. I think it's early. Him and Sondin are both going to be pretty vague early here in terms of making any, like they don't talk about playoffs.

They don't talk about any of this stuff. They're just being extremely vague about everything, which is probably part of the plan, where like coming in here with big promises is not what anybody, like it doesn't work here because people are going to hold you to that. I just feel like they're being very vague.

But what's wrong with people holding you to a vision that you have? Well, because I think there's a healthy attitude if you don't know. Like if you don't know what we can get from free agency, we don't know what we can get from other teams. So we don't want to say we're playoff bound. Like we're going to turn it around next year until we kind of see. I'm okay with that.

What I'm saying is when Lou and those guys came in, it was we want to get rid of blue and white disease and work. And it was. Mike Babcock saying there's going to be years of pain and outlining a little bit of what a plan was. That's not really like pinning you down to too much other than you want to rebuild a culture. So it was very much about a culture build when those guys came in, doing things the right way, even if it required some patience. When Burke came in, his outlining was the truculence thing was my teams are going to be hard to play against.

They are going to make you black and blue. And he wanted to entertain. Right. And what I'm saying is so far here, I'm not asking these guys to outline the plan and say, Here's what we're doing with Matthews at the podium when they're getting introduced. Here's what we're going to do with the draft pick. This is all of our philosophical lines of thinking. Here's every plan in detail for all of you to vet as fans.

No one's owed that. What I'm saying is the vagary that you're talking about is the sense for me where I'm like, I don't know what it is. And that's, and that's to Bourne's porn, I think that that actually might be a piece of it. But for somebody who has been out of hockey for five years, for somebody who left in a controversial fashion, my line of thinking is

I want you to kind of come to the table sort of prepared with what it is about yourself that makes you feel like one of the biggest jobs in professional sports and certainly in the National Hockey League is like the thing that you want to have define you ultimately like the outcome. Yeah.

You know, I think looking at these guys the one thing I really liked about the Shanahan and Lamarillo time was professionalism. Yes. Like the organization really took a step forward, right? They were a punchline, and those guys came in here and, like, brought the pride back, changed the jersey back to the old... Nice jersey that had the goal song, they had their stars coming. They got rid of the pajama jerseys with no stripes at the bottom, and they brought back the old logo, and they really tried to make...

Yes, and they, okay, we're going to be... God, did he ever. We were going to... He was the only one that did commercials? She was like, come on down to Hay Undy, Liu, say Lou sent you. No more flippered. You're like, and Matthew's got a commercial? Absolutely not.

No shot. Just Lou. Only me. So you knew, you know, that they were. going to do that whole professionalism thing. I think part of it is there's some genuine surprise, probably, and I'm speaking for him here on his part, that he got the job. And for Sundeen as well, which he's, you know, he wasn't even sure Sundin wasn't sure

he was going to do it until maybe a week before he did it. And so to come in, the one, I guess the comparison I would make is like coaches, I don't like when a coach tries to put their brand on a roster that can't handle their brand. I want some flexibility from a coach that says, this is what I've, got so this is how we're going to play. I kind of feel like that's Chica's thing right now. Yes, they're going to use data and be analytical, but I

kind of feel like they're rolling with the punches. I agree you probably at some point have to define what it is that are your strengths, but it does feel like a little period of discovery. The only scary part is you have no time for discovery. That's it. You have two words. You came in at a flashpoint

for the franchise. We are three weeks here from the draft. And where you're the last guy you got first overall, There's reports of him, like, potentially not wanting to come back in the fall. And there's questions about his future here. Questions who you're going to take with the first overall pick. You have two full draft classes. You haven't had scouting meetings yet.

Like, him saying that he's jumping on a moving train could not be more accurate. Like, it's a real pressure cooker immediately. By the way, we're actually like a month and a half from the draft. Ignore what I just said. But yes. Your point is good. It's like there's a lot going on to suss out. The biggest thing I was thinking is how challenging would it be right now?

We have them on the other day. what are you going to do? Oh, we got to talk to Matthews. Oh, we need to talk to the coach. We need to talk to the scouting staff. You don't have enough time. How are they going to make this all work here? Well, and Matt still has to go back to Sweden as far as I understand.

Yeah. He's not here full time. I don't think until like almost September. I think he's got a whole family to move out here. So if it's as collaborative as they say it's going to be, how does that work with the time difference and working with a brand new? But do you agree it's not going to be? I already know, like, well, I shouldn't say I know.

Yeah. But, yeah, the idea that the two of them will be equal partners in this venture does not seem realistic to me whatsoever. Like, I think even with Matt's title, it's kind of removing him in some regard from, hey, this is, this is a clear, defined role. Like, I don't even remember what it is. It's the senior vice president of vibes. Yeah, it's. I actually have no. I can't even remember.

what the title is. I think he is very open-minded to learning on the job and that he is a smart guy with a lot to offer. Useful to have in the organization. And especially well when we're talking about how we really wanted to see the culture change under Lamarillo and under Shanahan and under Mike

Babcock and the way that they were going to define that air of hockey, I think that part of Matt's role that maybe is a little overlooked is that it's like you're trying to reestablish this brand with a fan base that has questioned it. and bringing Mats into the fold as someone who genuinely cares about the Toronto Maple Leafs

and is not like passively interested in their success, but has seen it at its, I would say, most successful in the last 20 years, making a, well, it's even more than that now, my God, conference finals. And year-over-year success is that it's like having a guy who knows what it's like when that building is rocking and rolling. A guy who understands the positives of a market that is super intense. Like you can say, like everything gets picked apart.

Everything gets torn to pieces. everything gets microanalyzed down to the smallest level and having someone in here that actually has that it's not just like to me a nostalgic pick it's actually someone who I don't think takes that position unless he's confident he can learn a role that is going to be useful for the organization because like he can say the thing about it not being legacy altering or whatever there's a large group of fans

that did not watch Matt Sundeen play yeah so it's like legacy defining yeah it's start of the exact it's defining in some ways to some people that know you as nothing else but like a statue or YouTube clips. So I trust that he has the right intentions in this. I trust that he gets like the patience to eventually figure out a role that is larger than probably the one that he has right now. But yeah, I'm working under the assumption that like John Chica is the general manager of this team and he's dictating essentially what they're going to be doing from a hockey standpoint.

Yeah, we did those interviews the first day and Kip was asking Chica questions. I kind of felt like I needed to get some. Sundeen and so I asked Sundeen several questions. I don't know if you heard it. I did all this all interview. But every Sundeen answer are you going to be involved in the business? We'd be involved in. Was all yeah. Yeah. You know? Totally.

For sure, man. Good point. We'll see how it goes. You know, so I do think there is. I will say the smile. I'm just going to say. Cracked on his face. If they paid. Yeah, that genuinely meant a ton to him. You could tell that he cared and just seeing the video.

Like, I mean, they put out there, like their proper. aganda after on like the leaf or whatever and to see them so excited and then to have them walk out at the four performance center where tons of guys play beer league and they go out to the bench and they're like we want it and the guys like we heard they're like I was just like they kind of got me I'm like I'm bad how did you not I'd not be more optimistic with the first overall pick in an actual full draft class I do you know like a guy like Darren Ravel would probably have something on this but like the value of moments the image of Matt's smiling with Toronto Maple Leafs in the background as they went

and the meme of like you know the little I wonder what that is worth to the Leafs organization in terms of how it hooked people who were halfway out the door like I think it's if they gave him five million dollars a year to be here and I have no idea yeah I have no idea it could be one could be 10 I have no idea whatever they gave him I think that image is maybe it might have just paid for it I think everything

anything he does from now is gravy yeah like that image to them I think keeps a lot of fans I love it I love it all right so we got But our boy, Luke Fox, put out an article today about the priorities, the six critical steps on John Chike's Maple Leafs to do list. Top of the list is to nail the draft. And that's something that, you know, this has been a fascinating sort of Roarshock, Roershock. Roershock test. Roershack. Yeah.

Roershack test. Anyhow. But it does tell you a little bit about the person when they tell you who they would take or how they would approach this draft. And I'm curious to know You're a white horse Ucon boy. I wonder what is I do you want? There is a white horse

Yukon boy at the top of many draft boards. Is it a slam dunk for you? So for me, I would hope that like And it's like this is my philosophy on these things Because what I find interesting about these These top picks, right?

Is you have a case for McKenna being the offensive phenom The one with clearly the most talent in the draft. Then you have, Ivers Stenberg who is, I would say, maybe the safer pick in terms of being able to help this team and also someone that appears to have a more rounded game. And granted, I'm less familiar with him than I am with McKenna, but I've seen, like I watched him at the World Juniors and we're probably going to get a look at him with the world championship. And I trust scouts.

I trust people like Jason Bucola who tell us things like this guy's game is very well-rounded and that he could end up being an 80-point winger who can also kill penalties for you and the appeal of somebody. like that, right? I also think that it should be noted, Sundin having proximity to this guy, and also in his introductory media conferences, mentioning that he's been paying attention to the international game

and to prospects over these last five years, will probably carry a little bit of weight in this conversation about this kid, right? Well, I don't know. Does it trump the, you know, Chica, who's a Canadian, following a Canadian? I'm not saying that.

I don't think that it's going to trump the board that their draft room has. But as Chica has said, this is an organizational decision. decision. This doesn't come down to one guy. You're probably leaning on your scouts a lot more when you get to the third round. And John Chika and Matt Sundin don't have a clue between who they're picking here. But when it comes to this number one pick, all of those guys, Leach, his staff, Sundeen, and Chica are all going to be weighing in on who this pick is going to be.

And ultimately, yes, I think the hammer will fall with Chaka with this pick. That being said, he's the safer guy. And then you have defensemen. And some of which are transporters, something that this sort of. organization has clearly been lacking, and some of which who really would appeal to this fan base that has been starved for that type of talent since when, since Thomas Caberley? Yeah. I mean, most people will take it back farther than that.

Like I know Morgan Riley scored 20 goals and yeah, you're right. But in terms of like a Hall of Famer, they got Boris Salome. Yeah. Like they don't, we had the one year with Brian Leach. That's crazy. The greatest. Yeah. That's crazy.

Was that 20 games he played for the Leafs? 30 games. And it was the greatest 30. I couldn't believe how good he was. Yeah, so I think that the tableau that's kind of painted from the Roershack test that you're talking about is like, are you someone that's drafting for a need, which is the defenseman? Are you someone that wants to play it safe? That's the Swedish kid.

Or are you someone that likes to play the upside game and roll the dice and go big? And for me, I land in, like taking the bias out of it. Because, like, truly, of course. Why? Why take the bias out of it? Well, it's just I'm trying to be somewhat impartial here for what I would. do with the Maple Leaf so that it's not simply like, hey, the White Horse kid wants the White Horse guy. It's like, well,

that's kind of, it's pretty plain, right? It's kind of, it's tiresome also at some point. I'm not his agent. I'm not going to stump for him. Hey, there's not many. You've got to have each other's back. No doubt. And I'm, but here's the thing. I'm not heartbroken if he gets passed on by the Maple Leafies, because if he goes to San Jose Sharks and he plays the next 15 years of his career with Macklin Celebrini and the two of them win Stanley Cups. He'll be a Sharks fan anyway. Yeah, yeah, exactly right. Well, like again, this is one of those things where, uh, you know,

if you look at what's best for him, and I was told, hey, him coming to Toronto and being put, marketed as the golden child, the chosen one, the savior of all of this

in this market with some of the holes that he does have in his game and some of the familiarity that this fan base has had with high skilled guys who also presented some of the same issues that he did.

New Willie just dropped. Well, or just like, yeah, New Marner where it's like he's a perimeter player. Like he can, like there's some stuff with him, right?

he's got to put on weight. He's got to get on nutrition strength programs, like all those different things. To me, I just think that you want to, you don't draft the guy who you think is going to be the best for your organization tomorrow. You don't draft based on what is the safest. You draft on what you think is going to be the best three guy,

or best guy in the best three in the next three years. And to me, that's Gavin McKenna. When I watch him play hockey, I go, that is such a unique skill set that he has. You don't watch games and see a bunch of different guys. like him. I see Stenberg and again, don't know him as well. Not trying to profess that I do.

But that feels familiar in a way of a very good hockey player. The way that I see Gavin McKenna play in transition, the way that I see him on the power play, the way that I see him read the ice, the way that I see him stick handle at top speed, that tells me like you hit on this guy, you have one of the premier

point getters in all of hockey, one of the most valuable players in all of hockey, an untradable guy in all of hockey. So it's, I can this, it feels like a no-brainer to me, like personally based on my like philosophy on the matter. But I also understand why this is an open conversation. And I don't think that he's like Celebrini or that he's like, uh, Elliot on his podcast, liking that what the flames tried to trade three first round picks to try to get up in Nathan

McKinnon. I know that this guy's not that in terms of certainty as well as skill. But to me, the skill is worth taking a risk and saying, yeah, that's the, that's the guy you want to bank on. That's the guy that can be a face of a franchise. You mean, you said, it's beautifully said, but don't you think the risk is more to pass on him than it is? Like, I feel like there's a higher risk factor passing on him than there is passing on Stenberg. Totally.

Like I feel, I mean, just again, what we talked about on your show yesterday, my fear-based drafting. But I feel like a lot of Leaf fans, if you take, and you don't want to draft the fans, blah, blah, blah. But if you take McKenna and it doesn't work out, I think there's at least an understanding in your fan base that you drafted the consensus guy that everybody loved and was a Canadian guy. at the world, and all this stuff. Like, I think the higher, way higher risk would be to take Stenberg one. Like, in my opinion, with a public perception. You're not wrong. You're not wrong.

So yesterday I left the show with Bookes and I was like, I think I'm in on Stenberg. Like, I think you've got to get the best guy, I think, whatever. And then I went home last night and I put some real thought into this. I'm team McKenna. You have to take McKenna. This guy had 129 points in 56 WHL games. I mean, then he goes to college last year. as a freshman. He's fifth in college

in points. Like to me, the way I was thinking about it is, if you're rooting for the Leafs and one of these guys is on the other team coming in, who are you more afraid of? And to me, it's the guy with the crazy offensive ceiling. Like it's the guy who, you know, we, everyone

watched that clip, like one of the few clips I tweeted this year of him, but where he's playing for Penn State, I play college hockey, it's fast. And he slows it down to a crawl to find a trailer behind the play like he's seeing 360 degrees. I'm terrified to play that guy.

So if you pass on him, it's not about passing on the Canadian kid that's scary to me. You're passing on the white horse or the, you're passing on the skill. The guy who can make plays like Kuturov. That's it. So we're all essentially in the same spot, which is, well, yeah, I almost wish I could zag on this a little bit,

but it's like, I just, I want the skill. No interest in trading back for into the deep pile. I just think that the tradeback idea, represents to me cowardice. Like you're afraid to make the joke. And this is what I also find interesting about that McKenna picked that first overall and the thing that we're outlining here is

this feels like such a you're getting fired miss pick in terms of if you draft him first overall and he doesn't fulfill his potential and the warts end up being oversized. It's like too bad. And the other guys go in this draft

and it's like a deep top where you could end up having two awesome defenseman and Stenberg be like again the 80 point guy who is like a down ballot Selky nominee is a winger. Yeah. That people will look at that and be like, oh my God, you're fired. You blew this pick. Look how bad it is because the guys behind you were so close. And then conversely, to your point about it being risky to pass on him, it's the same thing

where it's like, but if you let that play into your mind and you pass on him and he goes to another organization and he does become Nikita Kutrov 2.0. It doesn't matter if you're never working again. Yeah. It's like it doesn't matter if you nailed the pick in terms of the. guy was really good. If he's not the best player at one, you're like, you blew it. The one, the one reason I...

Sorry, go ahead. I was just going to say the second and first pick. Everybody's always debated if it's better just to have the second pick. Right. To let the net the first page. Yeah, take the pressure off. Unless it's a no-brainer. When it's like there's a one A, one B at the top, people are always like, oh,

I should maybe this. I don't like that the first size. I just have the asset, but there's that conversation. But so I do sort of feel about the Chica hire like I feel about the McKenna pick, which is if Keith Pellie, believes that John Chica was the best guy for the draft or for the team, he has to pick him. Regardless of the backlash, because if he's wrong, it's trouble for him anyway. If you're wrong with this pick, no matter who you pick, it's trouble.

It doesn't matter. You have to get it right. You have to just go with what you believe. And if you are like us and you believe that this McKenna is the highest ceiling guy, you got to pick them. If you're wrong, you're toast anyway. I agree with that. So go ahead and make your pick.

Take the super skilled guy. The thing is, to me, part of the reason why this market's even really having this conversation, like outside of it, it's not unanimous. Like, again, Bukes went on both of our shows yesterday, did the rounds, and he's making the Stenberg case. Some people are going to be like Chase Reed, and some people are going to be like, oh, the Carols kid is that. And Carols.

When we do these, when we do this analysis, it always makes it sound like your, taking away from the other guys rather than just trying to define the pick that you like the most. And again, I don't know enough about the other guys in detail to say these are the things that I really don't like about this guy's game or whatever. And I'm not going to do that. But we get trapped in kind of that part of it where it's like, well, you don't want this guy because it's like, no, no, no, no. I'm just purely basing this off of, we've had two years where this guy has been a near consensus pick. Yes. And what will happen in this market more than I think would happen if it was Vancouver for you.

example. It would get talked around. That's like people will convince themselves of other people just because we would talk about everything every day. It's not just that though. It's that Toronto just had a formula built around three forwards that were top end picks with a ton of offensive talent who were missing some of the other pieces of their game and it didn't work out.

And well it hasn't up until this point. And so if like one of the direct comparables for this kid is, well, he replaces Mitch Marner. Some people look at that and go, well, where did that get you? Anyways, didn't we just say, like, let Mitch Marner go. Look how bad it is when you don't have it. Right. And so I think that part of the reason that the Zag is happening within the market, why, like, dude, I don't think I've ever gotten more messages than the last two days from Leaf fans saying, well, wouldn't you trade down or wouldn't you take the D or wouldn't you trade the second pick for Matthews?

Yes. A lot of it is because of the lens people have where it is filtered through the experience they just went through with Nielander, Matthews, and Marner. kind of some people are viewing him, either subconsciously or consciously, as an extension of those guys. Yeah. I use this example all the time and people are sick of it, but if my house is 18 degrees,

my wife will turn it up to 27 to warm it up. It doesn't need to be 27 degrees. It doesn't need to be the opposite of what it was before. It's called Jiffy. They'll fix that way. It needs to be 21. I will. I don't want to hate about Jiffie.

Who, thank you, by the way. Love Jiffie. I love Jiffie. You know, the other piece of this that I think is worth mentioning is this kid was the, what do you call it? Exceptional player. He has had attention for being the star for how many years since he was 14. And he's going to come here at 18 turning 19. I mean, he is better equipped to handle what's going to be thrown at him here than just about anyone in the draft.

You know, I don't know about Stenberg and what he's gone through for attention. This kid has been a superstar at Penn State. Is he a Hobie Baker finalist past year? You know, like, he's been in the spotlight. My watching of college hockey has been Gavin McKenna Highlands. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

He not only has shown that now for years, being the spotlight player with all of the attention and thrived in that, he's also now gone through adversity. When he showed up to college hockey, what happened? He did not perform right away. He wasn't great to start. And some people started to go. He's the number one pick. And if you look at it, I think it's 51 points in 35 games in U.S. college hockey.

Yeah. That's just under my career total. Yeah. So he gets that in 35 games. You should also look at how many of those points came during the second half of the year. And the leap that he took as a player. He also dealt with a controversy when he hit that kid in the bar. Yeah.

Which was immediately people going, does he have a temperament? Oh no, because again, the initial reaction to that was this kid's a loose cannon. He might get arrested. He might have a criminal record. What's this going to do for his status in terms of being able to cross a border? Like, it got so out of control immediately.

And you know why that happens? Because you're the first overall pick. You're the guy that everyone is looking at and saying, wait, this was the guy that we watched Team Canada for. And by the way, his team Canada experience was viewed as somewhat of a failure, even though he had the second most points in the tournament. And it's like, that's the level of skill he has. Is that it's like,

Going through all that. You do all this. You have all that. And people still kind of nitpick it because in our country and people who follow hockey, they look at it as, but are you Macklin-Celebrini? Are you Sidney Crosby? Are you Nathan McKinnon? Are you Connor McDavid?

And it's like, yeah, not every single guy is that, but you can still be a pretty consensus number one pick. And that's the way that I view it. You just, the hardest thing to do in the game is to get the puck in the net. And this guy does it as an exceptional level. And I do need to add that in Canada, what he went through with the bar. bar thing. If you ask people to put it in a pro or con column now,

I don't talk to any friend of mine who's not like, take the kid who defended his mom at the bar with us. But that should actually also be noted in terms of like his personality makeup, is that by every measure in every account, when we talk about him being a perimeter player, that that's not like that's the only place that he'll ever be, that he's afraid of going to the middle of the ice. But also that he has the ability to get upset actually is nice.

That's what I mean. Like, not once did he see Arna throw a punch at someone, not once, you know, it's just, it's never happened. The fact that he can get there is incredible. All right. Yeah. Good talk, boys. McKenna.

That was 0.1 of 6. McKenna. McKenna. All right. We're going to get into more Luke Fox's article after this. We'll talk about the coach after the break. The best Blue Js show out there, period. Blair and Barker.

Be sure to subscribe and download the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome back to Real Kipper and Born. We're in the middle of a hot debate right now. So the conversation was, hey, wait, why does McKenna wear 72? Quick Google search reveals. I don't even know what I want you to tell me. It's an inverse.

He was born in 2007, so somehow that's related to 27. And also because he wears an homage to his favorite childhood player, Jonathan Drew Ann. I need to hear that from him. Jonathan Drew. I got to hear it from his. lips that that's why because I'm just praying you went to like the boomer Facebook page it was like

AI you got to understand like who what do you do and Claude over like Chad DBT like it's this is currently in the Toronto sun as a fun fact from our guy I believe it's Hornby okay how about that

Hornby knows I got to tell you that was written yesterday this article crap this is Jonathan Drewann is that's concerning I got to say that out of all the things that have actually scared me about him being the pick. Not the bar fight.

No, the bar fight I told you. I'm firmly in the camp that you discussed, which is I haven't talked to one person who views that as a negative. It's obviously a clear positive. And then to go out there right afterwards when you return, score goals and be, the eight point weekend or something.

And do the Connor McGregor strut in front of everybody. Like if you don't think that's fire, if you don't think that's guts, like, yeah, come on. You can handle the market. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but Drew. Yeah. The truth's tough.

Yeah. Let's not talk about that again. I'm kind of upset that you guys did this to me. Like now, when I said I'm not his agent, like I actually kind of felt like his agent in that moment because I was like, well, actually, please don't bring that up.

So I wrote an article yesterday, which was just, what does this change for the Leafs? One of the things I thought maybe it changes. Kip doesn't think that Barubi's in any trouble. He thinks that they're going to go into the year and see what they get with him. To me, it's like,

you know you're giving up an unprotected pick next year. you know that winning is the goal. There's no hesitation on that. There's no incentive to not do anything but win. So if you genuinely believe that you can do better with a different coach, does this change the timeline for making that change? 100%. They should just be doing that regardless.

Yeah. Like, I don't understand the Broubae stuff at all because this was a team that was trying desperately to win all year long. That's why people are calling it the ethical tank. Right. Is that they were not trying to lose. Betman brought up a Maccabee show yesterday. He's like, see, they didn't flat out try to lose and look what happened.

But that's it is like, so part of me believes it because Barubei seems to be like almost like a trusted advisor in all of this. That like he feels initially with Pelly and Tree Living, these guys had a lot of power. It was like this guy is a part of that infrastructure. And I think that there's also a temptation not to just simply say, like all of the issues that befell us were on the coach and ignore some of the other problems. Right. And I've always been of that position as well where it's like I think it is more layered than just Brewe is a bad coach and he didn't get enough out of this talent.

It's like, nah, they're an old roster and they didn't play very well. And I don't know who goes in there if they hire the Denver guy. What's the name, Carl? Yeah. Yeah, David Carl. Yeah, that if they hire him that they're, what, 20 points better, like they made the playoffs and we're talking about them dramatically differently. I think it was a bad combination of a bad roster.

Yeah. Some bad deployment and bad coaching. I think it was just a bad. And also once it starts to fall apart, it was just over. But the thing for me is like, why I kind of don't believe it is one, when Chico was talking and he's like,

again, to the vision point, the one thing that did stand out to me is like he wants to be a team that can move it from the back end. It's like, okay. So is that what you think that this guy? Not off the glass and out. Yeah, like, do you think that, yeah, do you think that that's going to?

That does not mesh with the vision. Exactly. And so that's a roster. construction element as well, but also it's like stylistically, that was not really the way they were. They were not a possession team. If Chica is a data analytics guy, which all evidence points to being

that is the case, then you're probably going to be far more interested in puck possession, which doesn't lead to the Barubei element. So it's like, kind of feels like it's a bit of a contrast, but then secondarily it's always hard to say this when you're not in the room or you're not fully connected

to it, but did those guys look like they were loving life? with Brubay, like he's someone who used up some bullets at the end of the year. Like he started to get into them. There was still laxadaisical efforts. Like they had, let's not forget the Matthews moment in this team not responding in it.

And then Brubay kind of chewing on the having that like, it just sometimes you can just see it. Okay, like you don't have to be in it. You can just see it. That does not look like a team that was like fully invested in the way that their coach wanted them to play. From Chica's perspective though, and I think this is a point that Kippers alluded to,

it's definitely attractive to have, like, not right away, have it be your guy behind the bat. I hate the bullet. I absolutely hate it, too. And that makes no sense with when he was on your show, he said something along the lines of, every season with this organization is precious. And so you can't say that.

And then bring back Craig Brube. I get that. But I just, I do, but that's the thing that a lot of general managers do across sports when they inherit a team. Sometimes they let the guys start. We saw it here with Dubis and Babi. when he had him at the start of that year, when Sauer fired him,

fired him brought in Keefe. Like, it is something that general managers do. And I'm really, like, I think, I really do think that they'd be 10, 15 points better with a different coach next year. I actually do think it would help. So I hope they do it. But I kind of am starting to think that they're not going to. Well, it's going to be fascinating to see how it goes in these meetings, right?

Like, it's going to come down to one to two things. If Matthews and Neelander say, we can work with them, they'll work with them. And if they say we can't, they won't. Okay. But let me just ask you. I hate that to. But here's the thing. You've watched every game last year.

Yeah. You were a video coach. Yeah. Like, you're the most qualified guy in this room by like a wide margin to understand systems. You literally did something called system. That's your job. Yes. So when you looked at this, like, what do you think of that system?

What is your analysis of the way that he coaches? And the ceiling, the upgrade. Because to me, it's like, I don't care about the narrative stuff. I don't care about the bullets. I don't care about the idea that it's like, even the players say we can work with them. I want John Chica to be sitting down there as a new visionary for this hockey club, his advisors to sit there with their systems analysts and evaluate Craig Brubay on just the work.

Well, here's what I'll say is that I don't think any, you know, not many guys around the league are doing it all that differently. They're not asking their teams to play all that differently. So what we judge the coach on is buy it. Are the guys executing it the way you want it to look? And they're not. And now for me, you have to separate. that into one or two questions.

Are the guys not bought in, which is the coach's job, or do you just have terrible defensive forwards, which is the GM's job? And I think it's both. Yeah. Like I think you got too much domy, too much Machelli, he's okay at it. You know, too much Robertson, too much,

go through the lineup, weak defensive forwards. They don't give you enough offensively. Everyone other than Matthews, basically. Totally. Up and down the line up. You had weak defensive forwards. So that doesn't help,

but at the same time, guys are straying all over the place. Guys are, you know, Willie, saying Willie can lead the zone early for, you know, the odd breakaway is not a crisis on its own. But when you start giving different guys, different leashes and allowances, I think you lose guys thinking, well, I'm pretty good offensively. And if you let me have a longer one, maybe I'll just take my chance.

And like, it was not a pretty year from that perspective. And if Barubi were here, he would tell you that, be like, we need to be better at that stuff. It was really ugly last year. So it just this big, flashy new front office with Sundina part of it this you know like controversial

sort of new mind in Chica and you're just going to go into the next season with Barube behind the bench it feels like it needs to be something different. And then also the idea that some people would have which is that they went to Matthews and Nylander as you just put it and asked them for their permission to keep that.

It's like that sure feels just like the Shanna plan to me. Right. And then also if it is Gavin McKenna in here is Craig Barubi the first coach you want for him. But I think it's very important that we use up our remaining time with you on the Matthews stuff. And, you know, CJ had the report and there were other stuff around there about he's not 100% sure yet. And I got to tell you, at least fans are not happy about the report because they don't feel like it's fairly framed Matthews has yet to say anything to this effect. We don't know why that there suddenly seems to be this way.

you know, Kip feels... But didn't Elliot say something along the lines of the first overall pick is not the factor in Matthew's decision making? I don't know. Yeah, he alluded to that on 32 thoughts. And I got a full say, like, I know CJ, I trust CJ. He's a credible guy. Him putting it. He didn't pull it out of nowhere.

No. And he's not just someone who's doing stuff for the clicks. Correct. No, 100%. Correct. So, you know, but to that point, Kip feels like, hey, this guy, we shouldn't be asking him like to stay and show him he should be telling us why he deserves to stay and be a part of it to me i'm like you just got to go into this year with mckenna and matthews and go from there i don't think

that he's talking about leaving you get mckenna you make some other changes i don't see any reason to think he wouldn't be here where do you sit on all the matthews stuff i i think i've been pretty consistent with this all along i don't like the idea that you're going to him and trying to satiate him in any way like i just doing the same thing again no no no but i i think i'm just doing the same thing again. No, no, no, but I shouldn't say satiate him in terms of like letting him call the shots. They should be trying to win and build a sustainable winner. And to me, they should be trying to outline a plan where they're saying, we might not have it next year. Like, that's pretty clear based on the results from a season ago and the roster issues that we have. We're going to be

taken a step back in some regards. Like if someone calls us and gives us the right offer for one of our older defensemen, a Carlo, an OEL, a McCabe, we're doing that trade. If we think that it benefits our flexibility moving forward and our ability to acquire better talent. We are not just simply going to go into free agency and sign Rattish because he's the best name that everybody sees out there. If he fits the long-term vision of the win and they feel like that's in the window, great. But the idea that they're just going to load up on veteran players or move some of these assets in to be getting older guys that fit this timeline of two years is not so behavior to me.

I think the responsibility they have is to outline to him, hey man, here's how we're going to get back to being a winner. We're looking around the league right now, and there's a feel of changing of the guard. I feel it when I'm watching the Anaheim Ducks win games. I'm feeling it when I'm seeing the Montreal, Canadians go past the Tampa Bay Lightning. I'm feeling it watching the Oilers all of a sudden look completely old.

Tampa feeling like they're in a confidence, like a crisis of confidence. Like this league is moving fast, and it's getting younger and faster and more talented. And the idea that you're going to double down, triple down, quadruple down, whatever the hell it is on a bunch of older guys is nuts-o behavior to me.

I got no problem with them going to him with a plan to try to figure out where he's at. But it shouldn't be, hey, what's your input on what we should be doing here? And I think that people are actually kind of misunderstanding the situation to be more of that when I think it is more of what I'm saying, which is them showing him a plan and saying, we obviously want to win with you. It might not be this year, but there's a plan for us to win here while you're. We don't think your career is over in two years.

Well, see, this is the thing that I'm uptight about. He's 29 today. That's it. He'll be 30 when the year starts. Yep. You know, superstar athletes in the NHL don't just. drop to nothing. He's going to, he's got five good years left. This is where I'm worried. Well, and that's fine if you believe that some of this.

He's just, I don't think the Patterson thing is coming for Matthews. I just think it's availability. Yeah, that's a, I think production could be there. It's a fine concern. But you still got to roll that day. Forty-five to 60 games a year. Ultimately, you're not replacing a player of Matthews his caliber. And with his no move clause, you're not going to be winning these traits. Okay. So if he decides that he wants out, he's going to be picking a couple of destinations and you're going to get really, hurt in that trade. So to me,

the best plan for me has always been, in this case, to try and get Matthews involved in what the plan is for the next two to three to four to five seasons and saying, we want you to be the captain of this organization for life. We want you to be a Toronto Maple Leaf. We think with this kid, he's not going to be

the best version of himself next year. But two years, three years from now, you could be looking at his wing or at him as your wing or going. He can be a hundred point guy. He's a hundred point guy. He might even be better than Mitch Marner. Hey, we've got this draft pick, coming in. If we hit on these guys, we draft

and developed properly, then we can make some more creative moves. Hey, guess what? No one's talking about. The salary cap is going through the freaking roof year over year. You know where we're going to have more an advantage? Two years from now when the cap's at $120 million and all of a sudden teams are on the league, like the Anheim ducks are looking at it and going, we don't know.

We're not exactly positive that we want to be pushing up to the cap. Columbus is going to spend $120 million on their team? It's like, a lot of people are like, oh, these players are cost controlled or they're young or whatever, It's like not every team's going to be a salary cap team. Correct. The leaves will be.

Sunny Mehta got introduced by the New Jersey Devils and one of the beat reporters asked him during that media conference, are you going to be spending up to the cap every single year? And Mehta turned and looked at his owner and said, yeah, I'm actually curious about this answer as well. Like, that is not the reality for every team. The Maple East, when John Chagotka talks about resources, I'm not just viewing that as spending it on scouts.

I'm viewing it as moving forward. We're no longer in the era of, The flat cap. God, the timing was bad for the core four. It was very bad. And so there is technically a way. Am I skeptical of it? Am I saying that it's 100% going to work?

No, am I like... But it's an advantage and you can't say it's not. And do I think that... Even if you were ill, they'll mess it up, it's an advantage. And do I think that there's question marks about Matthews and getting one with them and all the health stuff in the age? Like, duh, duh, duh. Yeah.

But to me, the idea of trading him just because you're like, well, we got to get off this timeline and completely go young, they don't really seem like they're wanting to do that. And part of the reason is it's nonsensical. If he had no, no move clauses, and they actually could shop and explore him. I think they probably wouldn't be going publicly like, we got to sell this team to Matthews and the vision of Matthews,

but they know as well as anybody with a brain that it's like probably the best way. There are going to be five teams that you're going to be able to trade them to and you're not going to get anything. And what are you getting back? And if he's even a point per game guy, he scores 85 points next year, he's one of the better defensive centers in the NHL. He's remarkably valuable. Exactly.

You're not giving him the car keys in terms of determining the pathway of the organization. all you are doing is trying to sell him on a vision of when this team can get back to being a Stanley Cup contender because the idea and the notion of them winning next year to me is nonsensical. It's assonine and it's based on nothing. Well, hold on. Do you mean the cup? Yeah, I don't, I think, sure, when we do this conversation,

it's like, look at the retool that everyone just went crazy. Don't use Boston because they stink. But that's what I'm saying. Boston and Pittsburgh, it was like, the retool, the retool. They got into the postseason and it's like, one team lost the flyers, the other got embarrassed. by the Sabres. At least you're not given the first overall pick to the Flyers or given the 20th first

overall pick. Yeah, but I mean that's the goal. No, but my point there is just simply like these teams that we gave all the flowers to for the rebuilding, getting back to the postseason, it's like, where did it? It's the Thanos lie. Like, where did it get you? It brought you back here to me, which is in the offseason with the Maple Leafs, trying to figure out ways to actually become a Stanley Cup contender anyways.

Like, I don't really see the value. Like, I'm sure people would argue against the monetary reasons of getting players. of getting playoff money. But in terms of like your long-term vision, this fan base has seen playoffs. They've seen first rounds. We just went through a cycle where we said being in the first round is no longer good enough. Getting to the second round is no longer good enough.

So why is it that one year of the postseason all of a sudden reframing would be like. Because of this year. Because the way this year went. That was a pretty good meal we were eating. Honestly, yeah. I think I think getting back to the playoffs next year and, you know, win cups. Bill the winner.

Totally. Do not do something that is unsustainable where all of a sudden two years from now, you're back here going like, oh boy, we actually made it so much worse. Sell Matthews on sustainability. Sell Matthews on a younger team, a faster team, one with a vision, one with better players around him, one that's going to be selling or buying as many pieces as they possibly can using the financial resources that they have as an organization, promising every year is going to be 120, whatever the salary cap is, that will be what Brandon Pranum is figuring out,

how to make sure that they get right there on the dollar, I guess if he's still here. But you get my point here. There's a way to sell him on this that does not just include we're going to do a bunch of dumb stuff to try to get back to the playoffs next year. And I think that we've kind of framed it that way and it's not the reality. You know what else I think is happening that,

you know, happens in other sports a lot more is in the NBA, those guys orchestrate things behind the scenes as players. Like more than any other league, right? Like their buddies go on a fishing trip and they're like, all right, we're going to end up in the same place, whatever. You know, I do think that Matthews has friends around the league. Yeah.

You know, I just played on you. USA's Olympic team. I do think that McKenna helps you sell Matthews and whoever he's talking to that this is the place to do it. I think so too. What I would say to is like Matthews having questions about the future is a good thing. You don't want someone who's just complacent and is like, sure, I'll be here for forever. It's like you want a guy who's driven to win.

That's what the goal is. Bunk, thank you so much for joining us. Always delightful we can do a 10-hour show and we will see you in the 5 o'clock hour with Sammy Caws.