Real Kyper & Bourne - Yzerplan Meets the Shanaplan

Episode Date: January 12, 2023

Nick Kypreos, Justin Bourne and Sam McKee begin with the Leafs' 2-1 win over the Nashville Predators, one of the best performances all season from Matt Murray and Sheldon Keefe trying William Nylander at centre in Auston Matthews' absence. They also discuss Kyper's newest article about Jake Muzzin, and if the Leafs need a new Muzzin before the playoffs begin. They are joined by Maple Leafs radio colour analyst Jim Ralph (42:39) who breaks down Murray's game yesterday, the NHL debut from Bobby McMann, and his experience working with Jim Bowen.  Four-time Stanley Cup winner with the Red Wings, Woodward Sports Network's Darren McCarty joins the show (1:05:06) to talk about Detroit's recent stretch ahead of their game tonight against the Leafs, their path back to being a Cup contender and the "Yzerplan." The guys close with a coversation about the All-Star game, Canucks' Oliver Ekman-Larsson being a healthy scratch, and league meetings about goalies knocking the nets off.The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are those of the hosts and guests and do not necessarily reflect the position of Rogers Sports & Media or any affiliates.

This is Real Kipper and Born on Sportsnet 590 The Fan. Live on Sportsnet 590 The Fan, Sportsnet's YouTube channel, Sportsnet Now, wherever you are, we're glad you're aboard for the next couple hours. We've got a great show for you. Jimmy Ralph, of course, a good friend of the show, radio color analyst for the Toronto Maple Leafs. He's going to stop by in about 45 minutes. In the back half hour, we're going to, or the back hour, we're going to bring in Darren McCarty, four-time Stanley Cup champion, host on Woodward Sports Network. And he'll tee us up with the Detroit Red Wings

hosting the Toronto Maple Leafs. What would the Leafs pay to get current day Darren McCarty on their fourth line, do you think? Five large. Yeah, I think. Five large is the starting point. I wouldn't tell Darren McCarty this to his face, but God, I'm glad the Leafs are done

with the Red Wings after tonight. Yeah. I'm sick of boring games. Anyways, continue anyways continue all right we're gonna have uh some news and notes including uh all-star games when coming to toronto next year is that when's the last time that happened i've been city for 10 years i don't think it's been here i don't know if you were born the last time it was here damn we're gonna talk uh to talk Jake Muzzin. I wrote my column in the Toronto Star that came out today on Jake Muzzin and how active he is, first of all, in the organization.

I was surprised at how active he is in terms of staying involved, which is terrific news. But then my article went into whether or not the Leafs need to find another player just like him or not after what we've witnessed in the first half of the season. So I want to get your thoughts on that, Sammy's as well. But let's dive right into a 2-1 win at Scotiabank Arena last night against the Nashville Predators. And Predators came in pretty hot the last 10 games. at scotia bank arena last night against the nashville predators and present predators came

in pretty pretty hot yeah the last 10 games really including goaltending that even after last night kind of lived up to the hype of uh soros being uh an nhl all-star yeah you know i thought the difference in that game was exactly what you think the difference is in these two teams where both teams got pretty good goaltending, played hard, showed that they can hang with the good teams in the league. But the Leafs just, and I text this actually to Bunkus, we did the postgame show. I said, this is a game where your elite players just make an elite play at some point and the team without the elite players loses. Like, and that's what ends up happening right. Like you needed. It looked like the offense was only going to come from Nylander. Marner.

Tavares. Nylander and Marner hooked up for an absolute beauty. That's the difference in the game. We'll pick up a couple of comments from you. Sammy McKee. Also on board. Derek Brandale. Jen Rolnick.

But let's first go to Sheldon Key. For our first Kippers Clipper of his overview of what he saw last night. I thought we handled it well. I mean, it was a tight checking game, but at the same time, we did have a number of looks offensively, so I don't know if it was quite that tight. But obviously, it's a tight game, just given that it's 1-1.

But that's probably more so on the backs of two goalies going toe to toe yeah it's not like there weren't opportunities Sammy said something before the game that registered with me which is UC Saros is interesting because he's the you know for a guy who's six feet tall or under I don't know if he's 5'11 or

whatever he is he sure doesn't look it he takes up a lot of net doesn't he and very active active as well. Whereas a guy like Matt Murray is so much bigger and isn't active until he feels he has to be active. Whereas Saros almost starts being active without looking like he's out of control. Yeah, and just to take everything Sammy says,

so I look like the smart guy, that ends up being the difference in the game-winning goal, right? Like Soros has to sell out so hard on the shot because of the way he typically plays. It leaves you a little more vulnerable to a cross-scene pass like that. Also, Nylander took a shot from there nine seconds prior, but yes, impressive goaltending. Sammy, you want to give us your thoughts?

Not that I've said everything that you said to me. I do think it matters that, you know, Matt Murray stared down an elite goaltender and outplayed him. Like, listen, you can say that it's a January game. Maybe there's not a ton to it. But when the playoffs start and the Toronto Maple Leafs are playing Andre Vasileski and the Tampa Bay Lightning in April,

you're going to have to be staring down an elite goalie at the other end of the ice, and you're going to have to be an elite goalie yourself. It matters to me that he did that. I was at the game last night, and that's exactly how I felt. Interest. Last night watching it,

that it felt for me like a successful playoff type of hockey game last night. I thought the intensity was higher than normal, but not playoff intensity. But as far as how to win games in the playoffs that could look like that yeah that to me last night is a carbon copy of a way that you should be able to win in the playoffs yeah and to sammy's point if it is a game seven matt murray showed last night that that type of goaltending is the difference between leaving in the first round or advancing in the first round the thing that you can sell me on this most of all is that i don't know that jack campbell ever believed he was on the tier of guys

like andre vasilevsky i think is he smart and he knows it's not the case and not this isn't a knock on matt murray i do think that matt murray believes he is in that tier of guys and that he has been hurt and that's why he hasn't got his due don't you think oh a hundred percent and i could and that's good and i'll tell you when when he was kicked to the curb last year by the ottawa senators he still believed he was that guy yes he's believed it's everyone else in the circumstances but he's still idiots i'm still the i'm still great and you are dumb to not know that yeah that's but is what's between matt murray's ears yeah and he's won the cups and you can see that in those sort of games he's a lot more likely you can see that in those sort of games

he's a lot more likely to feel like this is where i belong rather than i just want to be the goat you know like not that camel necessarily was terrible but i like having a guy who feels like that's that's where he belongs i thought last night was matt murray's best game of the season you know who also thought that was his head coach sh Sheldon Keefe. To me, and obviously their guy on the other end is playing really well too. It's an elite goalie down the other way, so you need to match him save for save. Because I thought we were, you know, we generated looks and weren't getting much to show for it. So he has to stay strong, stand tall on the other end.

So for me, he's full marks tonight. You know, he's played a lot of good hockey for us this season, but that, you know, I try to think back maybe in Dallas or I'm sure there's a few others I may have forgotten, but I'm not sure there's ever been a game where I've left seeing the goaltender won us the game. And in a lot of ways, you could say that here tonight. I mean, first five. Won us the game. First five, seven ways you could say that here tonight i mean first five

is the game first five seven minutes they could have been down one if not two yeah that's that's you know we've given keep a hard time for over praising at times trying to like get these guys confidence going that was legit earned that's earned confidence and that's why all the like you know blowing guys up in the media and trying to get their confidence back it doesn't work you gotta earn it you gotta feel it i disagree that was not his best game of the season dallas on december 6th was his best game of the season yeah they went 4-1 and got outshot by 20 or something he made 44 saves and a shutout in that game yeah that's right but that was also during a stretch where they could do no wrong this is coming off people already doubting them since december 15th.

One of the radio hosts of this very program came in and said this about the goaltending. Yeah. It's not good. Since then, he did that. That's why it's better last night. Okay. I think that's fair. But if you're...

In terms of raw performance. Raw performance to me. That was one of the best goaltending performance I can remember seeing for the leafs that dallas one but he was good last night no doubt sammy's answered the bell not sammy mckee samson off has answered the bell every time murray has gone out and done something you know the whole way along when murray's been good he's been good murray faltered he faltered this is you know you got to like the situation here if you're the coach where you're saying okay you want to keep pace better be good again tonight the other thing that impressed me last night as well was just again the

the patience that the leafs showed to hold it hold it it, and then just wait for that one opportunity, which came obviously late in the game on the power play goal that won it. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I have felt that this team has been in these situations. We talked a lot about the patience earlier in the season, but in the playoffs in the past where they get ahead of themselves and they're not able to sit back in the game.

Earlier in the season, I get ahead of themselves and they're not able to sit back in the game earlier in the season i felt like he was patience last night was the first time i looked at their lineup and thought who's gonna score you know like with matthews out that's a game again where i'm waiting for an elite guy to do something and i'm looking at that bottom six and i'm going it's not aston reese it's not hunt it's not mcmahon it's not angvall it's not camp it's not Aston Reese. It's not Hunt. It's not McMahon. It's not Engvall. It's not Kampf. It's not like they got a lot of guys right now who you don't feel like can score, don't they? Like too many. This Leafs team used to be high flying. You think they'd score all the time. Now I look at the roster and, you know, they wanted a bunch of reliable guys that are D-side and solid positioning. But I'm having a moment with this team where I'm going, God, you're without Matthews.

Who's going to shoot it in except for these couple guys? It's fascinating still the conversation around them. It's like, oh, the high-flying Leafs. It's like if you're watching this team closely, that's not what their game is at all this year. They're one of the better defensive teams in the league. They really – like they can't have nights, obviously, where their elite guys take over,

but the mentality from the top of the lineup to the bottom of the lineup is a pretty clear one. The bottom six is a clear one. But even they're, like you were talking about yesterday with those defensive numbers with Matthews, like even him, their top guys are committed to defense. And when they're not getting that green light to carry the puck in, it's deep.

They are dumping chase. Yeah. It's not the possession game when Keith first got hired and they'd run it back and run it back. Like, they go north-south a lot more than they used to. You know, interesting thought about Nylander playing center last night. I just want to go to Sheldon Keefe on the lineup without Matthews because you just spoke of it moments ago.

Perfect. Yeah, not having Austin is a pretty significant hole to fill there. So, tried to manage that. I thought we got into a little bit of trouble, and the game was so tight that I just, you know, decided to move Kerfoot into the middle, somebody who's just more comfortable playing down there. At the same time, I also thought we maybe needed a goal from Willie,

and, you know um it's you know it's a lot harder for him to generate offense when he's the low guy he gets so much when he's the first guy to leave the zone that's a really i think accurate and interesting assessment of nylander don't you yes and so what did you think of him as center skill wise no question he can he best player on the ice yeah fair to say last night i think so the first sammy loved him first period was breathtaking right i thought i thought his play dipped a little bit throughout the game i think it's hard to live up to how good he played in that first period his first period he was as good as i've ever seen him it's the skating it is for me that just really and i don't know maybe you had brought it up maybe on on the on the next show after we sat 12 rows up yeah and uh and you said that

willie looks like he could skate with a glass of water on his head or a book and not uh have it fall off yeah and it's so true yeah it is amazing the the speed and the agility with almost uh an effortless uh way about him for sure but he he has never skated better for the toronto maple leafs and yeah there's time he's gone right yeah when he's going he's going he's going a lot uh But he has never skated better for the Toronto Maple Leafs. When he's going, he's going, right? Yeah, when he's going, he's going. He's going a lot. Less cheating. There's still always that element of him where he might take off out of the zone.

Yeah. Blow the zone. I think it cost him last night. Yes. That's the Forsberg one where he's thinking, oh. Just not sure. Morgan Riley at the blue line for no reason didn't help him that no it never does but he is he is you can tell he's uh the focus the commitment

has gone to another level for him yeah can he can he play wear and tear center ice I don't know every other night in the playoffs i i think that's a that would be a work in progress for him yeah but you know i think this isn't a tryout to see if he's going to be a center for you it's can we use him as a center if we have a need you know let's let's get a look at what this looks like for him if you're playing him at center in the playoffs you've lost one of your two really important guys again like you've lost matthews you're lost him at center in the playoffs you've lost one of your two really important guys again like you've lost matthews if you're lost to varus he's not going to push either of those guys unless you're trying to do what kipper want like elevating the bottom six

and playing him at center in the third like with which two third line wingers is would be malpractice with the way he's played on the wing this year so i thought it was i thought it was impressive last night but it's an option if they need to go yeah i think you know the the the comment about nylander creating so much when he's the first guy up the rink i think is really on the nose for the way for willie stylistically yeah and so when you make him a center you take away a strength that not many players in the league have he leads the league or at least the leafs in like zone entries right carrying the puck into the zone he's that's he lugs the puck for the leafs pretty well if you make him a center and he's the low guy and he's coming up as a support guy as he is involved

is that speed putting the d on their heels and messing up their gaps like i don't know if it's the best use of willie and then even on the forsberg goal where willie just takes one step ahead and it's like, no. Yeah. And you look at the Leafs centers, Matthew's playing so well defensively. Kampf is so good. Holmberg's so good. You know, your mileage may vary on Tavares, but pretty good. So they don't have a bunch of centers that get ahead of the play.

So not sure you want Willie in that spot. Well, he was instrumental on the power play, which the first thing I had to double check when I saw the game winning goal was, was that Marner to Nylander was that Nylander to Marner because it was a Marner type of pass it was he had the full lean into it the sell it yeah Soros bit yeah and Marner with the wide open game-winning goal here so let's go to Sheldon Keefe on what he saw out of the power play last night. Yeah, it was ugly, but he won us the hockey game.

So, I mean, coach is going to keep his mouth shut, you know. That's really it. Somehow, I feel like Derek is going to save that clip, and it will have a recurring. Coach is going to keep his mouth shut. Coach is going to save that clip, and it will have a recurring appearance on the Real Kipper and Bourne show from here on in. That one ain't going into the delete file. The Leafs' first power play last night shook me to my core. It was really disconcerting.

Did they get the puck into their own zone? Like core it was really disconcerting lord they did did they get the puck into their own zone like it was so bad yeah and i guess that's you know they have probably so many sort of breakout plays where matthews is involved in the first unit where you're used to having a guy that's elite and pretty much all facets of the power play game yeah and he's just not there but they couldn't they couldn't figure it out i they couldn't get it going up ice like they were bad how many power plays did they end up with last night five yeah i was gonna say four or five the only half decent one was the one they scored on the other ones were awful yeah awful listen it's either go big or go home for this power play and it's buried them it has the swings between looking like like the russians of what

uh pick a year i'm not gonna call your bluff actually 70 what that'd be a very jeff merrick like actually it was 78 nick i don't know man you can You can say any year. A 32.7. But like world-class elite to, oh my God, this is unwatchable. Yeah. No, it was tough. I actually talked to myself before the game into how Matthew's not being there might help them. I was like, ah, you know, instead of looking for that Ovechkin type guy, you know, there's not one trigger. You've got different options. Bunting is a great,

but puck recovery guy. You can get some other players shooting. And then I watched it and I was like, Oh God, 34 come back. You know, that, uh,

I was an ugly one, but again, they haven't done it with that group without him very much. So maybe, but I should also know national's pet, uh, penalty kill is very good. It's one of their true strengths.

So give them a little credit there too. All right. Uh, Bobby McMahon, first game in the NHL. penalty kill is very good. It's one of their true strengths, so give them a little credit there too. All right. Bobby McMahon, first game in the NHL. I think his parents were in the stands. They flew in from Alberta. That's pretty cool. You get called up

to the NHL and next thing you know, your dad's on a father's trip. Good timing. Unbelievable timing. His first game, his dad's there for father's trip. Yeah. Good timing. Unbelievable timing. His first game, his dad's there for the whole thing. So they go to Detroit tonight and then to Boston for Saturday. It's a great trip if you're a hockey dad. What, 11 plus minutes?

Yeah. I know he had eight and a half through two periods. I didn't see what the third period was. If you're asking me, he gets to play again tonight if I'm Sheldon Keefe. Yeah. After what I saw last night in terms of just – and we'll listen to the clip from Sheldon on it, and we can go from there.

Yeah. Just, you know, I wanted to put him on that camp line. Obviously, we moved Engvall up and, you know, similar in terms of size and a guy with speed down the wing and all that. I just wanted to see how, you know, in his first game, how he could fit alongside those guys. And I just was just going to watch it and see how it played out. And there was never a moment in the game that he made me feel uncomfortable

having him there. So I just stayed with it. I thought he did a heck of a job utilizing, you know, what he has in terms of his skating ability, his size, and his strength. He was really competitive on the puck. Had a couple scoring chances himself created one or two for others uh and just played a real solid game for a guy in his debut so it was great to see just he had me at size and strength he does he does look heavier bigger

yeah he does i think it's fascinating that he drew the comparison to angval where he's like you know uh we're just trying to i'm imagining they would love they could have angval cheaper and they're like we just thought we'd put them where angval usually plays exact same guy down the wing size speed we just thought we'd see i don't know if it works maybe we can save a million and a half for for 800 that year you know like if this guy's going to be the same for us, and by the same token, you put Engvall up and say, okay, if you are not replaceable, go do something with good players. Go produce.

What would you say? Right. You do here. If you can't out-produce the guy who makes 800, bad news. You know, so I do think there's some interest to see what McCann can be, because if they see big bodies, skates north-south, fast, you know, it's not like Engvall shooting in the net.

He was faster than I expected. Skates really well, yeah. There was multiple times during the game where I was like, oh, man, like, he kind of snuck up on a couple guys. I think, you know, his first guy wearing 74. Maybe you're not expecting him. Leaves history, first guy wearing 74. Well, no, it's just like, I feel like if you're on the other team,

you see any guy wearing 74, you're probably like, oh, that guy's a colleague. It's not exactly 16. Listen, I can appreciate a guy getting an opportunity and maybe finding a way to get in more conversations as a guy that can play maybe even regularly one day but i think it's too late yeah to think that this guy could even replace engvall by the end of the year it's just just doesn't work the nhl just doesn't work that way and yeah it also doesn't give engvall much

credit for a guy who you know pretty effective at bringing the puck from your own end to the other end and you've you've also made this huge investment in angvall the last few years seventh round pick that you you've groomed him yeah you've brought him to this point so he can go into the playoffs and play the part of a. Nick Paul. Yeah. Somebody like Kalorn something. Yeah. Right.

He threw a hit last night, Angvall. So we should all be talking about that. But you just can't bail. That's my whole point is you just cannot bail because. Yeah. You put all this developmental. Comes in and plays great. Once.

Twice. Yeah. A few times this week. Mid. Right? So it's hard. It's hard. Like stay with the program.

Stay with the vision that you had. Engvall's one of those guys. What he asks for, where he can take his salary the following year yeah yeah i i'm with you that he can outprice himself here right i just think maybe sometimes and i'm guilty of this we don't appreciate how nice it is to have a guy who when he gets the puck on his stick and pitcher engvall getting in the d zone starting to skate he's gonna pass everyone he's going to out skate them and get it into the other end circle around like there's value in some of that and well i think the frustration comes from it seems like there's more there he's still a pretty effective guy for the leafs so yeah i'm not mcmahon's not going to take a spot but you know he earned another look that's for darn sure i think dave mcmahon or

whatever his dad's name is we'll get to enjoy a couple of games out of old bobby i made that up i have no idea what his dad's gonna say his father no i just yeah it's nice to this is another sort of i think kudos to the development team for the least that they can just call up another guy that never was drafted and yeah you know that can just kind of kind of look like he belongs a little bit I know me and it like he's not a long-term solution but I think it is a credit to them being able to develop well that's what Kyle Dubas is hoping that you're you'd say is it yeah absolutely because he didn't text me that today unfortunately no but this isn't uncommon for general managers, and it's just not Kyle,

that this is a way of kind of reminding the Sammies of the world that I know what I'm doing with development. I look at what I can do. I'm convinced that's why SDA got a game this year. I think that's a very possible one. They're like, oh, see this guy, Bradford, plays in the NHL. He's effective in the bottom six. In the meantime, if I can extend Sammy's love for Kyle's development of players,

can I convince 31 other teams that I have now an asset, a chip in the poker game of let's make a deal? Oh, my God. Can you imagine Bobby McMahon mcmahon scores the winner for the bruins against the leafs you just that's what you hope though that you can start developing and and timmons is a perfect example of that the problem is kipper you guys sell these guys well they have their value right like nick robertson had value yes Yes. But the Michael Traco's column was unbelievably on point. He was never been more right than he was.

Unless. Which was, by the way, to trade him after the two goals. Unless Robertson would have found a way to stay healthy and maybe contribute 15 goals. Of course. But you don't know that at the time. No, you don't. Well, it's like playing blackjack. When do you walk away from the table?

You never know when you're at your highest number. But there's no deal to be had when Mike wrote that article that now's the time to trade him. There's no deal. There's no partner. There's no dance partner. So even if you wanted to, you're not going to make a trade for the sake of making a trade.

You're going to use it when you feel like you need it the most yeah a lot of things have to align the stars have to be in order here there was no stars to pull a trade here and i i don't know what uh kind of schedule he's on to come back and play but there might be some time for him to come back maybe with the marlies yeah have a good week or two right put himself in a position where someone may take a flyer on him truly if he's thrown into the marlies and scored five times in four games you could probably say look every time this guy has any run of health he's an effective player he hasn't had a run of health it's like timmons if he gets healthy he'll be good for you yada yada yada all right you know uh did you clip uh sheldon keefe today on uh was it luke fox that asked him about austin matthews

i have the uh yes i clipped it's a whole exchange with the reporters you can you can listen to it here okay let's have a listen yeah we'll see we've got some game time decisions here tonight so we won't have all that sort of total later on. Austin, among them. Yes. You said before it was something lingering. Do you think it was affecting his shooting at all? I'm not going to answer any questions about any of that kind of stuff. I don't blame Sheldon here.

Luke tried to walk him into a story. No. Oh, yes, he did. Which is, I mean, that's literally his job. Yeah, that he is a journalist. I didn't say he's not doing his job. Right. I'm just saying.

It's not like it's clickbait or that it's an unfair question. Oh, no, it's clickbait. Oh, that's a fair question. It's a fair question. I'm not saying it's not a fair question. And I'm not saying he's not doing his job. As a journalist, it's great when your job aligns with what's clickbait. It aligns.

It's like the most clickbaity thing. Also is the most interesting thing. Doing what any reporter wants to do. He wants to find a story. No, he wants to find the story. He wants the truth. You can't handle the truth. You're probably right, Kevin. That's what Sheldon should have said. You can't handle the truth. You're probably right, Kevin.

That's what Shelby should have said. You can't handle the truth. Luke. And you wrote us off a month and a half ago, by the way. Luke. But. Okay, so what was, how did he phrase the question again? In a very fair way.

Okay, play one more time. Yeah, we'll see. We've got some game time decisions here tonight, so we won't have all that sort of until later on. Austin, among them. Yes. You said it before it was something lingering. Do you think it was affecting his shooting at all?

Okay, there it is. You said it was something lingering. Do you think it was affecting his shooting at all? And if Sheldon goes, yes, yes, I do think that. Boom! Yeah, yeah. Headlines! Sure.

Sheldon's not an idiot. It looks really nice. Coach is going to keep his mouth shut. There he is. He's keeping his mouth shut. You think if it is affecting his shot, I'm going to tell you that? Why do I want you to go run wild now on this being an ongoing problem in the second half of the season?

You know what? You know what? It's a great question because if it wasn't affecting his shooting, you just say no. And now he's got an answer of his own. And if it wasn't affecting his shooting, he might have more goals than Zach Hyman this year. Wouldn't that be nice?

I, you know, I worry about that. Because didn't he have wrist surgery? See? He didn't even answer the question, and Sammy's worried about it. Oh, yeah. That's how he knows a good question. I worry about it.

If he's a game... What the hell are you even considering playing him? Are you kidding me? You can't... Game time decision? You can't miss home against a pretty good opponent, a good test for your whole team.

You don't miss that game to race to Detroit, get in at 2.30 in the morning, get up at 9 a.m. to have like a breakfast or a pregame meeting to go play. Yeah. I'd be shocked if Austin Matthews is in the lineup tonight. Shocked. I guess it's just competitiveness, like to keep the Red Wings on their toes that he might play

that you don't just announce he's not playing. Is that why? Just to say he is not playing tonight. Yeah. That's a good point. Game time decision. I hate that stuff too. I have always hated that stuff.

What are you talking about? Especially in the gambling world too. It's like maybe announce this stuff. Yeah. You're going to be partnered with game. Like just. Yeah, the Leafs are. Doesn't that stuff too. I have always hated that stuff. What are you talking about? Especially in the gambling world too. It's like maybe announce this stuff. Yeah. You're going to be partnered with – Do the Leafs are – Doesn't that move the puck line? Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. It shifted pretty good. That changed things. Do the Leafs are 5-0 in their last five against the Wings and like 9-0-1 in their last ten? They've won nine straight against them. Nine straight against the Red Wings. Yeah, they own them.

Thanks for coming out. Yeah. This rivalry should matter more. They've never been good against them. Nine straight against the Red Wings. Thanks for coming out. Yeah. This rivalry should matter more. They've never been good at the same time. Ottawa, Buffalo, Detroit, Montreal. You think about when they came back over from the West. It was like in 2014. And you think about where the two franchises have been at since then.

They've never really played any meaningful games. Yeah. That's wild. They've been going in separate directions because they were kind of at the end of their long one, and the Leafs were kind of starting to get good. It's weird that they don't. These are two classic franchises.

This is an old rivalry. Original six. It just doesn't matter, any of these games. Yeah. It's weird. Weird. Weird. Mid.

Anything else? Yeah, just move on. My last night. They look, Nashville look big to me too yeah you're you're in the building so you'd have a better sense for that especially uh also i know at times it was ugly on that power play but they're they're damn good on the penalty kill too with uh big bodies straight lines yeah taking away the dangerous areas for the most part outside of that game-winning goal.

But, man, they look big to me, too. Yeah, I see that. Bunkus and I were texting about 13 Yakov Trenin. Yeah, player. Great fourth-line guy or third-line guy. Big body, impactful guy guy good penalty killer i like yesterday willie donich was saying that uh what's his name tanner juneau and trennan combined for 41 goals last year i thought it was how about me remembering willie donich and not remembering

tanner juneau i thought it was really made willie look really smart when he was like i've literally never seen a more snake bit player than Tanner Janot. And then Tanner Janot goes in on a breakaway, shoots it at the chest, is standing wide open beside the net and can't shoot it in the net. Murray makes a save. Snake bit. He impacts the game, though.

Like, he was noticeable the whole night. It's just he couldn't score. Okay. Wrote my article today out on Jake Muzzin. If you get a chance, you can find it on my Twitter account, Real Kipper or Toronto Star. It talked about how Jake Muzzin is still contributing to the Leafs outside of playing the game.

Very active in terms of his involvement. My understanding, he's on the road trip in Detroit, interacting a lot with the players. So even in the dressing room. Semi sort of like a coaching capacity? It really sounds like that's pretty much it. Any type of feedback he can give them from watching. He has, I think, been involved a lot with even a guy like Justin Hall.

Yeah. The last little while. Well, you know, Hall found his game his game after god 12 games of yuck so maybe that had some hand in it who knows the other thing that i do mention uh in the column today is that uh there's still a void there yeah and i'll throw this to you jb before we get to sammy is that uh after everything you've seen and the feeling that you had at the beginning of the year on what the Leafs needed, is it still there? Do they need a guy that replaces what Jake brought to the Leafs

when he was healthy? So, yeah, I mean, that would be wonderful. I just don't know how many of those guys exist in the league total. You know, I in one of the underrated leaf stories is how much it hurts them losing muzzin because he was like tj brody in that he made a pair better right whoever was on muzzin's pair justin hall at his best run of hockey playing with muzzin you know whoever you put him with kind of felt like he solidified a pair for you so losing him is a big deal. And, of course, replacing him would be unbelievable.

But, like, Kip, if you were on the league, there's just not many of those guys. Every contending team is looking for Jake Muzzin, right? Like, that's, like, the number one. That's a thing that every guy is trying. Is that Edmondson? Is that Joel Edmondson? It is right now.

I would say he'd be at the top right now. Yeah. At times, it looked like Brendan Dillon couldn't get given away with the Washington Capitals, and now he's playing a significant part in Winnipeg's success. I don't think Seattle even wanted him in the waiver wire.

So, I mean, they are out there, and depending on you know what happens in the next few weeks with teams and their their their cut line on when they still think that they can make the playoffs or when they cut bait and go for connor badar they'll be more there'll be more yeah I mean that would be a wonderful thing I did think there was an interesting comparison between Muzzin and facing the end of his career before

him making the choice to do it and your own career you know did you do you can you understand what he's going through a little bit yeah for sure and again as I talked to a few people to kind of get some background on his situation, he's no different than any of us that he struggled early. Yeah.

Right? Would he have known early? So it sounds like it's definitely he's not going to play. It doesn't sound like he'll have another meeting with a doctor in February. Probably in the summer too. I would believe that if there's any hope at all that he wants to hold on to to come back and play, it would be decided in the summer. Does he have another year in his contract?

I think he's got one last year. So I think he knows for sure that he has done this year and that the Leafs will take the $5.6 million and use it to improve the team, which would make it very difficult for him to come back even if he was healthy. Right. Unless you pull a Kucherov and you want to try to throw him in in the playoffs game one it's tampa bay good luck you know last time i checked no thanks love muz but he ain't no kucherov no

no or patty cane or whoever else said that that i i think the the understanding is that I feel well enough that I can travel. I can feel well enough to ride a bike or go for a skate on my own. But I want to watch and help these guys win. Yeah. Do you feel like when you had your injury, did you already feel like you were at the end of your career? Or where were you in the mindset yeah great question yeah prior to that i was uh doing everything i could to save on and hold on yeah so factor in that you got an injury now and a doctor saying

if you actually get hit like this again, you could die, then... That's enough, eh? Wow, you're like, I like hockey, but I don't like it that much. Right? So, that's where Muzzin is right now. No question that

you have this issue going on, and if you want to risk uh walking feeling well yeah your career and all of that then you run that risk then okay and the other thing is is you know jake muzzin 50 million dollars in career earnings and i wrote that that does you not make 50 uh no no okay just three lousy million but it sounds pretty good um doesn't really matter at that point when you're told you cannot you can no longer do what you love to do yeah so that's that's the issue moving

forward and you know i i gotta be on like honest i'm i'm actually really surprised he is that active other guys when when you get news like that you just want to get away from it you can't look at it too painful what i mean i'm a top shutdown guy in the league and now i gotta watch connor timmins turn it over some guys will be like not timmins best game by the way i want to fill water bottles for you guys. No. But he's not like that. Yeah.

But you talk to anybody, this guy's about character, integrity. I think Sheldon Keith at times has described him as the conscience of our team. That's a compliment. Right? Yeah. our team it's a compliment right yeah so if he's willing and you know kyle dubas with open arms you're like you want to do this yeah yeah i want to do this yeah absolutely curious to see what that looks like by the end of the year like if he's in the locker room talking with guys about plays like you know what he is now well yeah like can he end up i don't know on the bench and the

coach's office during games, eye in the sky, doing some sort of, you know, more active role like that? Well, you just see how Kyle's been with Spezza. And I'm sure if Wayne Simmons decides to shut it down, if he wants to be a part of this organization, that's the sense that you get out of a Kyle Dubas is that, you know, I got a lot of time for character. So then the issue is just how do you replace that on the ice?

And do you need it less than you thought at the beginning of the year or it doesn't really matter? For me, I used the example of Kale McCarr, right? Great, great D, still need help. Still needed Josh Manson. Manson was very good for them. Really good. Yeah.

And I think, yes, especially when you think about beating Tampa or Boston. Mm-hmm. And the other thing I did speak at times about is that I don't want, I don't want Lilligren or Sandin or Timmons looked like as pinatas with big guys on the four check hard for checks. And now Brody's out with rib issues, you know, rib issues come with getting hit a lot yeah well it is it is a spot where i'll be curious to see if they can find someone who can play because it's not like you're

trying to crack a bad decor with an obvious hole you know what i mean like you have to be better than sandina lilligran or justin hall you have to be better than a good player so they can't go out and just get some guy who's big you know know, I'm looking at Arizona right now. You got Josh Brown or, you know, whoever. They don't need a guy who isn't better than those guys. They need someone who has that element to their game who's good. Good luck with that. Ekholm.

That's a nice one. Tanner Janot and Ekholm. Let's go. You think the Leafs miss Muzzin? Sammy? Love Muzzin. Breaks my heart what's happened to muzzin because i thought that was such a sort of shift in the leafs trajectory with him like when they got him i felt that that took them from into a real contender and a lot of the injury stuff with him is a lot of the reasons they didn't go further like you think of against playoff rounds right i think against that stupid bubble against um no against um columbus columbus is that weird injury marincin's

plan marincin played oh yeah oh and then uh you think of you don't remember that i was just burned into my brain sorry number 52 and then you think of the same thing against montreal like it's just a lot of the time when you needed him most he was banged up and just i feel that if you play it out 10 times with jake muzzin it goes better the other nine times in the way it's gone right now it's also you know he played a certain way for sure a way that leaves you vulnerable to late career you know if you drive your ford escort uh on four by four off road long enough it'll the wheels will fall off suspension issues yes i think that's where we're at all right we're gonna take a quick break here uh jimmy ralph after the break we'll get into matt

murray's performance and how good was it as good as i? Or does he like the win over Dallas earlier, like our boy Sammy? Jim Ralph, after the break, you're listening and watching to Real Kipper and Born. All right, let's bring in Jimmy Ralph, Toronto Maple Leaf radio color analyst. Ralphie, how are you, pal? I like analyst. Yes.

Yeah. Analyze. I don't know if it's as accurate, but I just get tired of that whole two-time OHL All-Star introduction. Yeah. Where do they introduce you like that? Good thing I forgot about that one. It's on my card.

Just want to get right into it with Matt Murray and his performance last night. I said for a couple of different reasons, I thought it was his best one of the season. Sammy refers to a Dallas game earlier in the season. But what did you see last night in terms of really, I mean, it was a bounce back game for him. If we want to go back to mid-December.

Yeah. Oh, no, I thought I'm with you, Kip. I thought it was his best game. And I think even Sheldon Keefe said in the post game that he felt it was maybe the first game of goal he actually stole for them, that maybe they didn't deserve to win. But I thought he was square. He battled.

And, you know, even threw in the Dominic Hasek save early in the game that still has you wondering how the puck didn't go in the net. But, you know, that's all part of battling. He never gave up on anything. And, you know, I thought, you know, even after they made a 2-1, he made some two or three great saves in a scramble late to keep the minutes. So I would say that was, from my standpoint, that was by far his most impressive start.

Ralphie, you know, the Leafs scored two goals last night. You know, the big one comes off a kneel-under stick to Mitch Marner, who puts it away i felt watching that game like if it wasn't one of those guys it wasn't going to come at all and that's been kind of regular this season do you have concerned about their ability to score let's say they go into a series against tampa and that the big guys get at least slowed down somewhat can they score enough yeah well i mean, I mean, I think Kerfoot camp Engvall line, I think at

one point, Kerfoot had a four-point four-game point streak. Engvall had a six-game point streak. And I liked those games. And they did, in fairness, they did get some secondary scoring in Philadelphia. Doc Astin re-scored. Connor

Timmons scored his first. Lilligren scored shorthanded. So they were able to do it then. But, you know, I think with Matthews out of the lineup and Engvall being bumped off, you know, bumped up from the Kerfoot camp combination, it's taken away a little bit of that offense because I think even though the numbers haven't been great,

I still think there's always been that threat with that third line of maybe being able to find the back of the net. And I like the fourth line as far as, you know, Pondis Holmberg has really come on and given them the option to move Kerfoot up alongside Camp. So, you know, I think it's always going to be a concern. I think you look at game seven against Tampa, and it was Nick Paul that had two goals for Tampa.

And I think you want to have those guys in the lineup that can do that. That may not be your 40 or 30 goal scores, but the second, third, fourth line guys that can chip in. As far as the opportunity of watching your team without Austin Matthews, last night Willie Nylander comes into the middle and doesn't look completely out of place here. What did you see out of Willie Nylander

at the center ice position? I thought he was back. He had three games without a point before that, which was his, I think he'd gone back-to-back games once before. His consistency's been there, but I know he said before the game that he said, I've got to get my feet moving again. And playing up the middle is going to help with that.

Then I'm going to have to get the feet moving. But, you know, I think what's more impressive, Kip, is how he's engaging in the one-on-one battles in the corner and winning a lot of them. So I think as much as you can like the points and you can like the finish and the creativity, what's impressed me the most with him is his desire to engage and win those battles. And I think it was probably fair criticism earlier in his career where he shied away from it.

And I think he's, whether you want to call it maturity or a message finally getting through to him, I think we've seen that change in this game. Well, if you're trying to get a sense of guys at the fringes who can be a part of this team in a playoff lineup, Connor Timmons has played a number of games now for the Leafs, and last night Bobby McMahon makes his debut. Do you have an opinion on McMahon after one game,

and how has your opinion of Connor Timmons evolved? Well, Connor Timmons, well, I think both guys you love because they're such a great story. You know, McMahon's, what, 26, I think? Yes. You know, it's been a long road for him to get there, and, you know, Connor Timmons was on the bubble in Arizona, and you think if, you know, with all dueons was on the bubble in Arizona. And you think if, you know,

with all due respect, if you can't be a regular in Arizona, you're probably, you know, looking at the Bobby McMahon way back to the NHL. So I like the fact that they're two guys that have great stories in getting there. You know, they weren't high drop

picks that they were slowly molded to come along. They were, you know, guys that then, and Timmons has battled through injuries through his career as well. So that's what I love the most, being a hardened, if not bitter, seven-year minor leaguer, you know, to see guys get those opportunities and succeed.

I thought McMahon was good. I thought there was good speed last night, and there were a couple of little plays. There was one, I mean, it was an upting play in the scheme of things, but the puck came around the boards on the right-wing side, and as he was getting there, you saw him look over his shoulder to see if anybody was coming. And a lot of guys would just sort of panic and just try to jam it out

without taking a look. So I thought that was a very, very small thing, but I thought it showed that his composure was pretty good. I love his post-game comments too. He said he used to play against Matt Duchesne in the NHL video game. He said it was pretty cool lining up

against him. I thought that was a pretty neat take. Our memories are still good enough to know when we played. If you didn't make it at 22 or 23, you were done. Done. Well, I know the first five years I got sent down, they said they wanted me to mature and learn the pro game

and get better at the pro level. And the last three years, they said they were going to go with the under guys. I think timing is pretty important. It is. At the same time, let me ask you something. Is there enough room in the back half of the

season that a guy like Bobby McCann can get himself into a conversation and maybe turn himself into another Pontus Holmberg? Or is that just unrealistic at this point with the back half to go? No, I don't think it is unrealistic. I think you're looking to fine-tune the fourth line.

I mean, I don't know if there's a bigger trade out there for a defenseman or if you're not happy with Yarncook, who's been very good when he's played with DeVaris and Marner. If you want more of a scoring threat on the wing, on the top two lines, it remains to be seen. I mean, I think

he's a guy that if you put him in the same conversation with Dryden Hunt and Zach Aston Reese, if he could maybe bring that little extra on the fourth line. And I think it's important, too, to have, you know, we talked about his long road to get there at the age of 26. Aston Reese was an invite to training camp and earned himself a contract. I think you've got to have guys that are happy to be there in that role.

It's not about I want more ice time and I should be on the power play. I accept the role I have, whether it's eight or 12 minutes a game, and it's my job to produce during that time. So I think he's absolutely in that conversation to be a bottom six guy that has some character and some compete in him. Here's my bold statement for the day. If Morgan Riley isn't good in the playoffs, the Leafs can't get out of the first round.

What are your thoughts on where Morgan Riley is at in his return from injury? I think that's – I would say that that's probably a pretty lengthy list, Marnie. Fair. I don't know where you want to put Morgan Riley there. But you're right. I don't know if we've seen this game click yet. We talked about the spectacular save Matt Murray made in the first period.

Justin Hall and Morgan Riley got caught up ice. And they were on the ice when Nashville scored as well. So I don't know if you could see, I mean, Hall's been very good with Giordano. He's been very good with TJ Brody. I don't know if we've seen that duo of Hall and Morgan Riley click yet because there seems to be a lot of odd man rushes the other way. So, I mean, you know, hopefully Morgan Miley gets back to the way that, you know, we've seen him earlier in his career.

But right now, I think it's safe to say, and it's not being critical, but he's not quite there yet. And, you know, hopefully in the next week or so, we'll see that. No one's watched more Leaf players, morgan riley than you and joe if if you were to describe morgan's issue still where would you go is sometimes i watch him ralphie and he's kind of he's kind of caught between am am i an offensive guy am i defensive guy do i need to join the rush? Do I need to layer these guys? Do you think that he sits there and goes,

I got zero goals in what, close to 30 games? I want to get a goal here. Like, where is he? Where is he mentally and physically for you? Yeah, you know what? I agree with that, Kev. I think it's sort of in between. And, you know, as much as you can say, you know what, just play your game.

I think, you know, sometimes players have a tendency to say, look, I'm getting paid more money now. I've got to produce more. And it's hard to get out of that mindset that I have to be better than I was to earn, you know, the more money that I'm making now than before. And it's, you know, and I still think there's got to be better communication between he and Hall, both as far as who's going in. And then the forwards, somebody's got to pick up

and say, I've got to cover the point. If I look up and see 44, number three, standing in front of the opposition, but you're right, I mean, I think it's probably weighing on him that he hasn't scored yet, even though I don't think that's a concern to Sheldon Key for the Leafs. But I think from a personal pride standpoint, you probably want to be, I don't know if he'll get back

to 20 goals ever again, but you still probably, if he's going to be in the number one power play unit again, you want to be the 10 to 15 goal range for sure. Ralphie, they're halfway through the season. There's no immediate pressure point. So I'm going to take an opportunity to kind of ask you something about your own job. And what is it like calling a game with Joe Bowen? Tell me about the experience on a game-by-game basis.

What's that like? Well, since we've, Joe's been divorced three times. I've been divorced twice. So it's probably somewhere between the divorce and the honeymoon. You know, where it gets to the point where, you know, he's kind of the wild one that, you know, talks about everything. And, you know, where it gets to the point where, you know, he's kind of the loud one, you know, talks about everything. And, you know, I kind of just shut down sometimes.

I appreciate that. Well, we can get you both on and we can talk through this if we need. Oh, I know. It's my fault. You know, I know where this is going. This isn't turning into an afternoon talk show. You need I feel statements. You need to address each other and say,

when you say that, I feel like you don't. Yeah. I can't help. Let me try to segue this. Are you comfortable with Lilligan and Sandin now moving forward, or is there a pending divorce coming by the first round? Nice job. Yeah.

That's a pro. That man has worked in the business for 20-plus years. Well, there may be a trial separation. If they come along... It makes it more complicated. Have they come along enough for you to say yeah listen uh they have come a long way in in really a short period of time to convince uh us that it might be a probability that we could see them together against tampa bay in april uh i think maybe um we made reference to that, the Dallas game,

where Matt Murray was brilliant in a 4-0 win. In that game, you'll remember the Leafs were down 5-on-3 for a full two minutes, and Sandin and Lilligren were on the ice for most of it. And I thought it was kind of a watershed moment where they were both blocking shots and they were both physical in front of the net. And to me, it was sort of the first time you thought maybe this is that moment where they come together.

I think whether it's a positive or negative, and you could probably find both, they're very similar players. And kind of, as you were describing, Morgan Riley, are they offensive? Are they positionally defensive? Where do they fit in that realm of defensive responsibility? So, again, I think it's another thing.

You've got until the trade deadline to try to figure it out. But I think it's been much more positive than negative. And to me, that turning point was that Dallas game. You know, we were watching the game last night, and I had a bunch of people tweet at me because Pierre Engvall body-checked someone on purpose. He ran his body forcefully into another person, and people liked that.

Do you feel like he's coming around? Like, is he using his body? Is there a chance this guy can be of use? We discussed him earlier in the show. I want to get your take on angle. Yeah. Well, again,

I think he's been better this year than he has any other time. At least, um, I think he's been a nice fit, but, uh, you know, he's one of those guys that,

you know, you see, what is he? Six, three, six, four, six,

five, six. Yeah. Well, it sort of leads me into my point. He doesn't play like he's six-five. No. And I know Sheldon Keefe has said, look, you know, a lot of big guys in the league aren't physical.

And there are smaller guys in the league, if you want to take Brad Marshawn, that are physical. And it's just, you know, a player's makeup. But, yeah, I think you always want to say, you know, size is an advantage, especially on the forecheck and everything. Why wouldn't you use it? I think we've seen a lot more out of him on the offensive side this year. You know, in spurts where he's – I think he's – even last night he made a play,

I think it was to Lilligren, coming late. Came over the line, pulled up, and then made the pass to the middle of the ice. So I think his game's improved, but I don't know if he's ever going to be one of those guys that you say is going to somehow flip a switch, and he's going to play with a little more of an edge and be more physical, I think. You realize it's a personality and the way he plays, and you try to fit him into the lineup where he can help you the best. One more for me, Ralphie, and that full circle goes back to the goaltenders.

Samsonov will go tonight against Detroit, and we assume we'll see Matt Murray against Boston Saturday night. But are we now at the point of the regular season where Matt Murray needs to play three out of four games, or are we going to take this thing right to April? I'd say two out of three. Anyway, Kev, because I don't think you want to go in. You've split them pretty much all year,

whether it's to try to prevent any serious injuries or whatever, and then you say, okay, it's the playoffs, every second night, go. You know, and I don't know if the body takes time adjusting to it, but I'd like to see maybe Murray play two out of three, not necessarily three out of four, and get ready. But because, you know, I do think in the back of your mind, there's the injury history. So you better make sure that you do have both guys ready. But I think, obviously, when you look at the length of contract,

Samsonoff's only on the one year. Murray's the guy you want. But I still think you've got to keep Samsonoff in the loop and comfortable. And if he gets in, it's not going to be because he hasn't played for three or four weeks, that you have a concern. Ralphie, always a pleasure, pal.

All right. Don't tell Joe I talked about. No, I won't. I won't. But anytime you need to talk to us about Joe and clearly the issues that have been going on behind the scenes, we're here for you, man. We'll send you a bell for the therapy. I'll text you around midnight. All right, just don't slur your words then, okay? Jim Ralph.

Thanks, Ralphie. Okay, let me throw this out. We're going to go to break soon. So it's interesting and uh the sense is that you you're not as worried now on matt murray on whether or not he can get the job as much as you are between now and the end of the year will he get hurt yeah really good point if you put all your eggs in the matt murray basket and then the basket breaks you know you can't say that you didn't see it coming or that you're shocked that the basket

broke or you know it's a fragile basket okay i don't know how i want to break this down yet but i'm going to try it okay i'm going to give you guys uh three options on matt murray staying healthy till the end of the year this is let's get 25 tsn's quiz master 50 or 75 percent odds that he makes it all the way healthy yes what were the numbers 25 50 75 he didn't even offer 100 no by the way. No, I didn't offer zero, and I'm not offering 100. 25. Ooh. Sorry, you think there's a 25% chance he gets through the year without injury? Yeah.

That's so low. Yeah, he's going to get hurt again. Come on. You just hope it's not at the wrong time. Wow. He has already played more hockey for the Leafs than I thought he would this year. When he got hurt in the second morning skate. No, we're not talking about practice.

We're talking about morning skate. I thought he was out. I didn't think he was going to play again. Will you be shocked if he doesn't get hurt between now and the end of the year? Shocked. You know, it's tough to be shocked when there's an absence of something. You know, like at the end of the year, I'll probably look back and go, holy crap, he didn't get hurt. But like right now, it just feels like we're just kind of waiting for the next game yeah so i don't know all right what do you think what's your 50 your 50 50s i'm

50 50 based on his history 50 50 samson off you need samson off to pick you up until they have the hottest goalie outside of the nhl too and the marley's right now joe won again he won again last night i don't know marley's record right 935 save percentage fascinating by the way i've been dying to say that someone tweeted us about angval which is why partially why i've asked questions about them and i was just googling this to see if it's a slur or not but he said when that butterfly farmer goes in on the four check can you call a guy a butterfly farmer i don't that's one of the funniest insults i've ever heard so i googled butterfly farmer and the first search is butterfly farmer killed anyway just thought i'd share that that's a great great chirp look at this i might bring that one to

real league on monday That's pretty good. I'm always looking for new ones. It doesn't seem like they'll ever push this guy to go out and act like a six-foot-four checker. My college roommate was six-four-two-whatever and didn't want to do it. And you can't make them do it. You can't make them do it. And they think that they can win without pushing him in that direction.

Yeah, it's like they got another... It's like they're so much more accepting than us. They got another chance to try, right? Right. Well, I mean... I would like them to push him in another direction. But you remember early, like Keith used to kill him in the media.

Oh my God. He used to bury him. the media oh my god he used to bury him but now they're just sort of like you know he is what he is if there was some blockbuster trade where both kerfoot and angvall went out the door i wouldn't be heartbroken listen it's hard to really dump on what team's doing that anybody when you're 25 9 Right. Yeah, things are going well. Until they're not going well. Right. And then things go horribly bad after that because you're looking for work.

Okay, we're going to take a quick break. Darren McCarty, four-time Stanley Cup champion, will join us and help us tee up the Leafs and Red Wings tonight. Father's Day trip. Or is it a weekend? Or what do you call it? Whatever. Just a father's trip. or is it a weekend or what do you call it whatever just a father's trip okay father's trip don't we get a trip ever u.s open sunday so oh yeah shouldn't they send real kipper and born on a trip i would agree i think that'd be great okay we'll work on that during

the break all right back after this with darren mccarty nickiprios, Justin Bourne, Sammy McKee. All right, we're going old school here. Hard-nosed old school. Glad we're not on the ice. Let's bring in Darren McCarty. Mac, what's going on, pal? How are you? Kip, how you doing? Justin, an absolute pleasure to

talk to you guys. What's going on, fellas? I mean i mean first let me just say this as a uh member of the detroit red wings and stuff like this for everybody in toronto i think that you're seeing something different this year uh in that team so um i know that everybody's worried about that first-round curse, and you hear me make fun of it all the time because that's what I'm supposed to do, but I'm just jealous. But things that I've seen this Toronto Maple Leafs team do, including last night with the wizardry, as Mr. Bowen said,

of Mitch Marner near the end of the game, but I think the resilience that they've learned, and Kipper, I wanted to ask you this because you know this from experience with your Rangers team that got to the Cup. You need to go through this sort of adversity, and to me, this is the stuff that I guess we were waiting with them for,

but we're seeing it in the regular season, and to me, Sheldon Key's done a heck of a job. Well, no question. but we're seeing it in the regular season. To me, Sheldon Keyes has done a heck of a job. Well, no question. Your skin thickens as the years go by. Just to stay on this, what is the number one thing specifically for you, Mac, when you look at the Toronto Maple Leafs that does stand out?

Because obviously the focus is on Marner and Matthews and now Nylander, but what is the it factor? What was the it factor for you in winning Stanley Cups with the Detroit Red Wings that you may see a twinkle out of the Toronto Maple Leafs this year? There's a couple things, and you know what? I get to see it live tonight as Toronto brings their show into LCA in Detroit. But there's two things. It's the maturation of Mitch Marner into that true leadership role and comfortability in who he is, not just as the points guy, but what he means in the locker room. And you cannot, in today's NHL, it's the depth that they've learned, especially on defense, which, Kipper, in our game, like you said, throw it back, it was that star centerman, and you needed that guy

or the two guys down the middle. Now you need those defense guys, and I can't say enough. I've been impressed as defensively they've done the job, and it's been by different guys. So different guys are learning by fire, learning more responsibility, so it's just not on the Matthews, the Nylanders, the Tavareses, and the Marners. It's really becoming a team effort, and I think for the first time

I'm sort of seeing it and I'm seeing it game after game after game Darren one of the things that has changed a little bit with this Leafs team is the fourth line seems to feel like they know their fourth liners this year in the past there's been Jason Spezza there's been some like some confusion

almost over what the bottom line does how important is it do you think to like accept your role and have clarity in what it is you is it, do you think, to, like, accept your role and have clarity in what it is you're supposed to do? You know, you're one of the best at what you did ever in, you know, at a very specific position in the lineup. How important is that acceptance of where you fit into the lineup? Embrace.

What you're seeing is guys embracing whatever it is. And I don't care. It goes along. It's the same thing we always talk about, your star players needing to get their minutes. Well, it's the same thing is that if your fourth line is going to give you the best six minutes that you're going to give them, or in our case, if you're talking the grind line back in our winning days,

we were playing 12 to 15 minutes. You know, we could match up against everybody else but you take pride in it i always say that hey i might have been a cog in the wheel but i'm a four cup blinging cog and when you see that vehicle i i stand out and and you know like it's just one of these things that you embrace whatever is needed to be done and i think you know more to it what you see is more of a traditional fourth line but in this nhl which isn't our kipper in my nhl which is physicality was more important now it's the skating ability your guys got to be able to play you got to be able to play and be able to skate in this league. So I think that you nailed it. It's along the same lines as that as a team, they're figuring it out and guys are embracing their roles no matter what it is in the lineup

or out of the lineup, up and down the lineup. But it's just not like you said, it's not just the Austin Matthews, Mitch Marner, Ny neilander show back to when it was us when when the shanahan's and the eisman's and the federovs um knew that they didn't have to do it they could they had guys down the lineup that would chip in and help out not all the time but when needed that's what makes you dangerous is there mac, Mac, a fine line, too, on if you are in that fourth-line role and you are a better skater today and you've got great mobility, but is there a cusp line in terms of heaviness still? Because I remember you, malt shake, drapes, kosher.

I mean, you guys played a heavy game. And to go from April to June every other night, wear and tear on the body, is there a sense that you still want to see a little bit of a heavier fourth line? Or, again, you can get away with it if you're quick and mobile. Well, right. It all depends on what the mission is, you mentioned uh kirk malpy and chris draper who you wouldn't like malice throw the body around and stuff but what made them and and it's hard to translate and explain but their stick right back in the day your stick was a great

weapon too with the way that the rules and the you know what you get away with but it's sort of so you need to be you need to be effective that way but a lot of times the way that the rules and what you get away with, but it's sort of positioning. So you need to be. You need to be effective that way. But a lot of times the way that the game is called is you've got to play within whatever the boundaries are, which are tighter than they were when we played. But that's what makes guys like Ryan Reeves so valuable in a game like today to embrace a sort of role like that minnesota you know

he's causing some problems but you know let's sort of wean that guy out of the league but it's it's more of i think to the point as the line all the three-man unit embraces the fact of what the coach and what they mean to the team moving forward to be successful so mac where are the detroit red wings in their arc in terms of trying to get back to being a stanley cup contender obviously um you know willingly sort of bottomed out for a bit and seem to have turned things around where do you have them on that sort of uh path back to glory yeah i always i always do the hashtag wiser plan math like at the end of the day it doesn't matter what i want or what what i think or whatever it's i just you know i have reason not only just the fact that i played

with him as as a player he was my captain for stanley cup runs i've watched the guy since i was since he came to the red wings 11 years old growing up in leamington ontario so just you know stones throw across to go watch wingsings games in the dead wing era, but it's the man himself. So I just, Kipper, you know this math, right? I'm sure you do it with Master or some of the other greats you played with. You just go, oh, it took him eight years in Tampa to get it right. Probably seven here.

So probably three or four more years because the greats only compete with themselves. And so I think that, you know, this year, I said before the season, if you're in the conversation at the end of the year, the last week where, hey, you got to beat Chicago and you got to beat Ottawa, these two wins to get into the playoffs. I think that that's, you know, the high, the ceiling mark next year playoffs for sure. And then, you know, once you get in the dance, the object around here is foundational. So the fact that like we used to do it when we made the playoff every year, he was trying to get the foundation back.

So, you know, I don't, it's, it's so tough. This game is so tight. Teams are so, so good. Teams are so good. Playoff hockey matters, but I got to think at the worst four years, you got to be looking back to the conference finals. We're talking to Stanley Cup champion Darren

McCarty, who has billed tonight's game between the Toronto Maple Leafs and the Detroit Red Wings as the Iser plan versus the Shanna plan. Is that what it is? The Shanna plan in Toronto? And you know what? I drank many times out of the cups with

both those guys. Oh man, I bet. Kipper, here's what I always tell everybody. I say when your hatred as a Detroit Red Wings fan, like we had towards Colorado and the rivalries back in the day, when that manifests with Toronto-Detroit, like when we were growing up, when Rick Bives and John Anderson and all the different guys for the Leafs

were playing, when that rivalry's back and you've got to go through each other to get out of the Eastern Conference. Oh, yeah. Oh, we're going to love it, aren't we? We're just going to sit there and just chuckle and love it and watch Draves and Stevie and Shani all sweat. And the one thing that I'm sure still, there might be a level of frustration watching Detroit,

especially when you can remember the heyday of your days winning Stanley Cups but there are some really good pieces and uh you know I'm watching the Flyers and I went down their lineup and I'm like okay uh who's an untouchable here moving forward and you can't really come come up with too in Philadelphia, but you can look at the Detroit Red Wings and say, hey, yeah, Mosider's an untouchable. You know, Lucas Raymond

is an untouchable. So, I mean, there are pieces to build for Stevie Y and Drapes. Yeah, no, that's the whole thing. And you look at it, the Montreux and the save to Uncle Kenny or Kenny Holland, who's the whole thing. And you look at it, the mantra and the say to Uncle Kenny or Kenny Holland, who's the GM in Edmonton before, it used to be guys would percolate in the minors a little bit and grow.

But the game's changed, the evolution. These guys are coming in young. There's some young guys like Jonathan Bergeron who's in the lineup. You see the development of some young guys like Joe Valeno. You know, you got Simon Edgerton down and getting time in Grand Rapids. Elmer Soderblom, who's started the year here, has been up and down. And these guys are all young. So that goes to my former centerman and your good friend Chris Draper also

as they're getting the job done as they're scouting NHL players. So, yes, the future's bright here in Detroit. It's still some stormy seas. Tonight might be one of those because I tell you this, Toronto plays real well in Little Caesars. So hopefully it's not one of those nights, and having Tyler Bertuzzi back in the lineup will help too. So, yeah, it's going to be this way throughout the whole season.

But like I tell all Wings fans, I say go ahead and get your favorite player's jersey because if you get that guy's jersey, he's probably going to be around. And I guess that leads me into Dylan Larkin. You think Larkin's going to be committed there long term? I hope so. Yeah. I always said it. I always said it.

Stevie's Merlin. term i hope so yeah i always said it i always said it stevie's uh merlin dylan's always been king arthur just because of you know it's a big thing with a lot of us older guys like like for me i grew up with red wings fans so i'm like the stepchild because i'm from across the border he's a kid that's from here and the first time the thing i love about dylan larkin is he knew as much history about the red wings youings back when he was a teenager, just talking to him because he lived it and he loved it. So I believe in him. I believe this is what I stand. The Detroit Red Wings will be a serious contender

when Dylan Larkin is your number two sentiment, just like back in the day like Steve Eisenman was to Sergey. So he still needs his Sergey Fedorov. You know what, Mac, again, you know, not to keep going back,

you know, 15, 20 years ago, but it's relevant. But Detroit powerhouse, right? Big market, really a sense of top team marketability,

all of that. It's been a while here, right? I mean, are the Red Wing fans still there? Can we get Detroit back to the point where they are a top powerhouse team again? Yes, oh, absolutely. And it's the hashtag, like you said, the Wiser plan. Like, you're all in.

Their weight, that's the best thing about the Detroit fans. We've gone through different cycles at different times. And it's been a long time. And here's the one thing which you don't realize, Kipper, because we played in it and I played at the end of it. But, you know, the salary cap era has had some effect. And it's, you know, the adjustment to that. But I'll tell you right now, even though

tonight's a sold out, all this month, the last eight or nine games have been all sellout, the people are ready here in Detroit. They trust in Stevie. And so they're showing up and supporting. And you know, the frustration is a little

bit easier because you see the improvement and you see the improvement and you see the fact that you're getting some results. Because we can all agree, the eyeball test, that this team is a lot better than they were last year. A lot has to do with the new coach and Derek Lallone. It takes time to implement everything you want to implement. They got some improvements to do.

Hopefully they can kill a penalty tonight, but we'll see. Big test for them in Toronto. Like I said, when they become your arch nemesis again, that's when the world in Darren McCreary's hockey land will be right. And that's when it really comes back full circle to Hockey Town USA, right? You said it, Kipper. It always is. It's just been a little dormant lately.

There you go. Hey, Mac, loved having you on. We want you on again. Wish you all the best, pal, in 2023, okay? Yeah, I appreciate it, Kipper. I'll see you again. Hit me up anytime, Justin. Appreciate it.

You guys do a heck of a job. I always like reminiscing about the good old days. And, yeah, stop and think about that for a minute, what you said. 20, 25, 30 years ago so enjoy boys thanks back what's having you that is stanley cup champion darren mccarty sounds great does sounds like he just he's like getting shot out of a cannon a isn't there a ton of spring in his uh voice yeah there's there's no fear you know that's what i remember the way he played and it wasn't recklessness it was just no fear he played to that level of just like you try to stop me you know and i'm telling you like that stretch of hockey that we're talking about

and where detroit was on the map the nhl the hockey map yeah when i grew up detroit was i mean and it was real and true hockey town yeah they haven't been hockey town for like 20 years The hockey map. Oh, yeah. When I grew up, Detroit was... Owned it. Owned it. I mean... And it was real and true hockey town. Yeah. They haven't been hockey town for like 20 years. Yeah. How long? Yeah.

Wow. When did they stop making the playoffs? 2015. Okay. Well, even towards the last few years... It wasn't as sexy as it was when they were... Not as sexy or as powerful. That's all.

No, you're right thinking about those detroit colorado years i mean that was like those are the two premier franchises you guys watched that 30 for 30 oh yeah with forsberg i was on it with uh drapes and uh yeah claude lemieux but forsberg's involved i saw pieces of it but i never watched it in its entirety. I didn't realize how badly Draper got hurt. But McCarty is a big part of that. Like, he does the interviewing with Claude Lemieux on the stage, and, like, that's a big part of the documentary. You know what we're going to do? I'm going to watch it.

We're all going to watch it again, and then we're going to have him back on, and we'll just do a whole segment on that. A little homework. Three-year-old, like, real Kipper and Bourne show review. Oh, man, that's an incredible documentary. It really is incredible. But I was just, when you guys were talking to him there,

I was watching, I posted the goal that he scored against the Flyers in the chat. The goal. The inside-outside. That's one of the best goals in the history of the Stanley Cup Finals. And they had a guy that could do what he did outside of scoring that could do that stuff. That's Tom Wilson.

That toe drag into the middle, I don't even know who it was. He just sent that guy to the shadow realm. He was gone. Just do me a favor and look at it one more time so you can see the flyer defenseman. Do you want me to know who it was? Yeah, I do. Okay. We know it was Ron Hextall and that, right?

I'm on the hunt right now. Why? Do you actually want the name? I just out of curiosity. I'm going through ads here. So give me a second. You know, I only bring this up because I played with a guy in Washington named Sean Chambers. Okay.

Is it Sean Chambers? And Sean was the recipient of a Mario Lemieux inside-outside during the Stanley Cup final. Number 44 on the flyers. Yanni Ninema. Is that who that is? I don't know. I'm just throwing it out there. I'm looking it up.

Oh, he's just scrambling. Scrambling. Stop. It's happening in slow motion. That one just gets your shorts right in a knot. Yeah, that's tough. That one you see in your sleep the rest of your life.

It doesn't have to be in your sleep, Kipper. You see it on every... You're eating cereal. Oh, the playoffs are starting again. Yeah, every... Right in the middle of... You nailed it. Right in the middle of it you nailed it top gun if you're if you're if yanni ninema loves hockey and he's like oh i'm gonna watch

the stanley cup playoffs first night of stanley cup playoffs every single like literally every single you know a thing they put out there every piece of advertising that goal is always involved in it yeah you know why because you don't even try to go one-on-one with someone it is ninema yeah it is yeah i don't need him up okay that's a good night good one that's a hell of a fly how about the slash who's coming in late with the slash that was that team just hadn't it's crazy how good that flyers team was and they just got the doors blown off them by that wing steam. Chop.

Yeah, no kidding, eh? I can't see. It was a right-handed shot with the chop. The chop is number eight. The chop is way too late. Is Michael Pettit. Michael Petit? Oh, Michel Petit.

Michael Pettit. Nailed it. Are you from Texas? You're Canadian. You should recognize our French name. All right. Michelle Petit. Michael Petit. Nailed it. From Texas? You're Canadian. You should recognize our French name. Oh, I didn't until I looked across and saw where he was from. I was like, oh, God.

That's okay. You're forgiven. Thank you. You're 30-something. Yeah. You're forgiven. There you go. What a goal.

What a guess. That was awesome. That was awesome. We'll have him again. Yep. And we will. I'd love to. I'd just love to pick his brain on that whole series.

Yeah, for sure. But we'll watch the documentary before we do that. All right. Some news and notes around the league. Let me do the first one before I forget. The NHL wants you to get your vote in for the All-Star game by this Saturday. You can hashtag NHL All-Star vote. Go ahead and do that. Push for Pontus.

Pontus Holmberg. Push for Pontus. Okay, let's go there um because we assume that the leaf fans will get willie nylander in do we not i mean can you get you know matthews in first right i'm i'm going down the path that how far are we from the All-Star weekend? I have no idea. Three weeks?

Don't embarrass me by pointing out that I have no idea. Okay, I think it's like early February. Okay, sure. Are we now to the point where a nagging injury will totally come into play on giving Austin full four days off? Yeah, yeah you still got to vote him in right like the he'll get the credibility and then he'll pass yes yeah uh regardless of of being voted in or picked by the league if you feel like you've got something nagging yeah the history of this uh

weekend will show you that there's leniency to someone that isn't 100%. Let me ask you, a game 50 of any season, have you ever not had something nagging? This is different. He's missing games. Yes. It's close. It's true. It would be legit if they told him.

And again, if we are in that mind frame now that this is a build-up towards game one then austin don't go yeah and be curious to know like for these guys the meaning of the all-star game has changed so if you say to willie kneelander you can either go be in the all-star game and compete in that three-on- three game or you can go to belize what he would prefer to do on that weekend no i got sid got asked about it today i was like oh in years past you haven't guys like oh i haven't gone and he had a big crap eating smile on his face when he said it it's like i if for a first time guy or it's very very thrilling but i'm sure sid's like, again?

Yeah. You got it. You're right, though. But for Willie Nylander, he'll go. He'll be excited to go first. He's Willie Nylander in Toronto. He's Willie Stiles in Miami. In Miami.

Different guy. Oh, he'd play that up big time. I was going to say, how many buttons done up? How many Instagram pictures of him with like half a shirt on will we get i'm saying dreads will come back i'm setting the over under at two and a half picks yeah how many he takes and how many he posts are different equations but yes i'll tell you where he won't be posing uh for instagram pictures next year if he makes the all-star team is in toronto what why what well the all-star game's coming to toronto in february

in toronto you don't think it'll be shirtless no no it won't be shirtless and uh this time uh next year i wonder if there's a part of their the league is like look a lot of people like to go home for the break anyway home and ontario is, I don't know, 30% of the league. Toronto makes sense. I don't know. Do we expect next year anything like alligators involved in the skills competition or dunk tanks on the beach during the All-Star weekend? They're firing a puck into a osmos chicken

on the rocks that's that's the kind of talk is this oh that's happening do you really believe i have not asked i'm scared to ask anybody if this is true or not yeah i also have heard rumblings of the things you're vaguely rumbling about. Meat patties to an alligator. Is that what we're doing? We're shooting meat patties? I'll watch if that's the case. No, you're not watching that. Oh, I'm watching that.

I think that is incredibly compelling. There needs to be a danger element, though. If you miss, you have to go get your meat patty back to shoot again or something. It just turns into an episode of Jackass all of a sudden. Oh, danger element, though. Like, if you miss, you have to go get your meat patty back to shoot again. It just turns into an episode of Jackass all of a sudden. Oh, come on, guys. You can't. Yakety sax music.

This will bottom it out. Are you kidding me? This will bottom it out. I'm calling it right now. If this turns into that bit of a clown show, then it gets scrapped. Yes. Yes. This is the background music during the skills competition.

Buddy, they almost froze on glaciers in the Bellagio Pond last year. I'm calling it right now. If this turns into a clown show, then by next year, we're going nostalgic.

Five on five. Gauntlet. Everyone lines up by the boards. You have to skate through the gauntlet. Five on five. NHL All-Star game. Oh, my God. I would love that.

Best players picked by... Gary. Professionals. By non-Twitter. It would be funny to see if Gary could give you the 20 best players in the league. I actually would really take a ton of pride that if the

All-Star game came back to Toronto and they were like, alright. None of that funny business in the Mecca hockey. We're playing a hockey game. We're doing fastest skater. We're bringing back styrofoam. Environment be damned. i don't care it's like if they went like stock traditional they wore orange and black jerseys in toronto

it would be the most that would be the most pride i would ever take in the all-star game oh i think you're on to something there there there you go so let's really hope it really is bad this year so it completely bottoms out remember the saint, like, sauce pass into the different levels of the net from a distance thing? Yes, I do remember. You know. I like that. Is shooting meat patties into a gator's mouth any different? That really sounds like a euphemism for something.

Shooting meat patties into a gator's mouth. I have a new job. I'm telling you And they They'll get in trouble Because it's meat So they'll have to do Vegan patties It's going to be meatless patties It'll be a meatless patty

They got to go down to A&W And get a Beyond Meat burger Can we order like 1200 burgers please It'd be like Gary and bill daly at the drive-thru hey we need some meat patties what do you got back there you know you're lagging the juice spent the weekend shooting meatless patties in the gator's mouth no idea what that means but it's something all right what else you got okay we got um oliver ekman larson scratched for the vancouver connects healthy scratch gonna watch a game year two of his deal that goes to

2027 is that good what a disaster this trade was real real bad and so that obviously is boost bruce boudreaux being like he's not defending well i don't want him in the lineup tonight and we're here first of all rick talkett rumors at the same time when bruce has been around a long time one of the winningest coaches in history yeah 600 and he ain't making that decision at least by himself you don't think this is like i'm hearing coaching rumors i'm gonna do whatever the hell I want on the way out the door. No, absolutely not. Really? Not a snowballs chance.

He's got to go to Patrick Alvin and say. Patrick and Jimmy Rutherford first. Yeah. Like that's ownership would have a say on whether their $8 million defenseman plays or not or doesn't. Yeah. Without a doubt, that ain't Bruce running solo. It's interesting. You know, because what if he just didn't?

He's the coach, you know. Decide his lineup. Yeah. No. That's not the way it works. No. No. Okay.

How do we still talk about Gabby as the coach? Well, I have some mercy on the man. Let the man go. Like, let him go. You know what? It hasn't been fair to Boudreaux since the jump. No. When your GM or your president talks trash about your coaching,

the players don't feel the need that you're not going to be there. They don't need to buy in because you're not the guy. So the team plays worse. I will say they play the most unstructured hockey i can remember since and i don't mean this is a slight to someone i like since doug weight coached the islanders that i mean just a complete train wreck of a defensive plan i came in yesterday after they blew that three nothing lead in the first period to the um penguins and i just said yeah i'm, they're horse bleep.

They're just absolutely terrible. They're a terrible team. They're as bad as you can be with talented players. And that's why they can't bottom up. Because they have talented players. Yes. It's just like, it's just too good still. Yeah. So a guy who used to get back to us pretty regularly

anytime we asked him on the show who suddenly got a little quiet, Rick Talkett. regularly anytime we asked him on the show who's suddenly gone a little quiet, Rick Tockett. Elliot Friedman mentioned him on a show today saying that he thinks. I've heard his name out there constantly. Yeah. And part of the reason I would think that they have not made any moves with Bruce Boudreaux is a financial one. It just doesn't make any sense to start taking on what I would think would be in the ballpark

between two and a half, three million dollars to get Rick Talkett to leave television. Right. To go behind the bench when you know that you're not going anywhere anytime soon. But this is bad, Kip. This is bad for everyone the the players involved yeah i know are everyone is floundering looking for a direction maybe maybe they are at the point where they're okay still paying bruce budrow the rest of the season uh travis green the rest of his contract and now bringing rick talk it on board maybe it makes more sense for

them for the reasons that you speak in the back half of the season than it did with uh the first 40 games yeah i do think at some point there's a competitive element to this where like you're hurting your team next year by not letting them like find some structure this year you got to sell season tickets you got to sell corporate packages how many people want to be associated with a team that uh uh this narrative follows them like a dark cloud can't talk about the team without talking about boudreaux right now they're just waiting for that shoe to drop i think if you are and i don't know how you could not be on this team if you're a canucks fan i think if you're on team tank you probably want them to keep boudreaux

because i don't think if you go you bring in Rick Talkett halfway through the season and they get better that's good I mean and you're still yeah God love God love Gabby but Rick Talkett is going to come in there and it's going to be a completely different probably message and they're going to be they're going to get a kick in the ass from a sort of a hard-nosed guy they're going to get maybe eight or nine points they shouldn't get which takes you how many lottery balls further away from the north vancouver kid that's really good at hockey who wants to play there maybe that's why gabby's still there but can you do that to the players and the fans just let them but they all want to lose they want to lose every game every canucks

fan wants to lose every game the organization hasn't made that clear that's a priority they say they want to clear cap space that's what rutherford says we haven't made that clear. That's a priority. They say they want to clear cap space. That's what Rutherford says. We haven't seen that. Yeah. So that's. All right. Here's one for you.

March NHL general manager meetings in Florida coming up. Hot button topic. Goalies knocking the Nets off their moorings. What do you think? Can I tell you what i think about this yeah who cares oh no i care yeah i care okay i hate it when there's a flurry of activity and the team's about to take a shot on goal or get go and then i see the net come off yeah it pisses me off okay do you and you think goalies are the bad guys i don't know i don't know and i did write about this today that my first thought is is like hit the goalies hard but there is a lot of talk that they're not going

to have a a knee-jerk reaction to the league. Start with the actual. Start with what is going on. How consistent are the nets within each rink? Like, is it uniform? Is it mechanical? Yeah. Is it some holes are deeper than others? Some pegs are longer than others?

I don't know. Do some nets come off easier in other buildings? So they're going to have to figure this out. And it may take a little bit of time. But you want analytics? Who's the league leader in the nets coming off the morning? Is it our boy, Matt Murray? Matt Murray leads the league in nets off. I will say, if Veg Malka and Phoenix led the league,

we never would talk about this once. But we're not wrong. This is the most Toronto-centric conversation of all time. Now, because the Leafs goalie did it a couple times, it's a referendum. No, it's not. It's been happening ever since there's posts and moorings. It's been happening.

But it's not a story until the biggest mark in the world with the most storytellers in the world for hockey are here. So it's a natural feel that it's always bigger because it's out of Toronto. That's just the media. How much would you lose it? It's the third time that Vasilevsky has knocked it off in round one. The Leafs are swarming around the net and he lifts up a post again you'd lose your mind yeah so i mean i i don't hate the idea that they'd like it to stop i so i but they i changed my tone here it's just something to me

them's the breaks it's one of the things that pisses me off that happens in a hockey game you know what else pisses me off when they make horrible calls on the Leafs in Game 7. When a pick play that doesn't get called, that also pisses me off. But oobla-dee, oobla-da, bud, life goes on. That's just the way it goes. Listen, it's... We don't need more gray area in the NHL. That's the history of the game, buddy.

Yeah. Goalies knocking nets off is not what we've grown up with or we know about this is this is new at this at this rate it's new it's a nice tactic it is fantastic if you're good at it right it is no different than than uh than a guy embellishing a penalty yeah it is if you're not cheating you're not trying. And there's some guys that are really good at it. I don't know where Vasilevsky is. I would bet you

he hasn't knocked off maybe two nets this year. Yeah. How do you know that? I don't know that. Do we know that? No, we don't know that. He's a monster. He's the biggest goalie in the league. He probably has done it a hundred times, but no one cares. But he also is the calmest, biggest guy that I know.

And there's not too many times when he's swimming out there or he's sliding any harder than he needs to. Yeah. I can just picture this conversation goes down at whatever, when all the guys get together and they're like, the Toronto Leafs are doing it. We better shut it down. And then first round of the playoffs,

guarantee Matt Murray kicks it off. Not that bad. And they get called for it. And the Leafs get a goal against. This is a lock. Stone cold lock. Now I'm going to find, someone's going to tweet me that Vasilevsky's done it like four,

five times. I guarantee he has. But guess what? No one gives a, because he plays not in Toronto. Everyone cares because they hate the least your point is that they should allow matt murray to cheat because every goalie does it just it's a part of the game that's unacceptable my friend every part not every goalie does it

it's part of the game no i'm on team kipper absolutely but you just said you don't care about this he's talking to me do it oh not No, no, no. You don't get to accidentally shoot the puck over the glass anymore to kill a momentum or get your team a rest or get a line change. That's what these guys have now in the back of their minds. The net, the shooting it over the glass penalty in the playoffs, I mean, if we're going down this road, it's particularly annoying because you can commit an absolute murder on a guy in overtime you haul them down you put it really does you put your arm around a guy's neck and drag them down no penalty but you accidentally

heal one over the glass two minutes you might be going out of the playoffs because of that like i actually i'd like to see that go away. Agree. I think that rule is so stupid. I don't think you have time to consciously be like, pump this out of the zone. How many times do you see a guy go like, put his head back? He's like, oh, crap. I kind of just accepted it now. I hate him.

I'm not a big fan of it. But is he's right though? Because other calls go down in terms of like what you have to do to earn the call and that stays at the same level, right? I mean, so it does become a more common call or a more i don't know it's high high damage you make a mistake like that you know what i found goofy too is that like correct me if i'm wrong but you can do it in the neutral zone yes yeah you're fine but you can't do it in your own zone right

so it's literally one stride difference a five major, if you are shooting pucks over the glass in the neutral zone, you know how bad of a player you must be to shoot a puck over the glass in the neutral zone? What are you playing with, a lob wedge? What kind of curve do you have on that? You're the worst passer in the history of the game. You should be game misconduct. You're not allowed to play anymore. You got to go home.

Leafs, Red Wings. God, i got way more fired up than that about that than i should have anyways no no for sure get the refs talk going and my blood boils yeah we're gonna have tim peel back just like that two hours guys that was fast jimmy ralph thank you very much in the first hour and Darren McCarty. Awesome stuff on our show today. Leafs and Detroit tonight. We're back tomorrow to give you that and more on the Real Kipper and Bourne Show for Derek Brandeo, Jen Rolnick, Sammy McKee,

Justin Bourne. Have a great night. We're back tomorrow. Real Kipper and Bourne.