Real Time with Bill Maher - Ep. #419: Matt Schlapp, Timothy Snyder

Episode Date: March 25, 2017

Bill’s guests are Matt Schlapp, Timothy Snyder, Chris Hayes, Max Brooks, Louise Mensch. (Originally aired 3/24/17) See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to an HBO podcast from the HBO late-night series, Real Time with Bill Maugh. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Please. Please. You're so transparent. I know why you're happy because Republicans pulled their repeal of Obamacare, which means you will be able to continue taking whatever drugs you're on right now. Drugs, I know I am. But isn't this amazing? I mean, for seven years, this is all Republicans live to do.

Was repeal and replace Obama. It's all they talked about. It's all they voted on. It's like the girl of your dreams finally saying, okay, take me to bed. And then you get her there and... Oh, this looks bad for Trump. Oh.

Does. You know how Putin feels about failure. That's right. But, no, this health care thing went down because of the Freedom Caucus, that's the artist formerly known as the Tea Party. In Congress, Paul Ryan wrote a health care bill

that somehow covered fewer people than just repealing Obamacare and replaced it with nothing. And it still wasn't good enough for the Freedom Caucus. It's like if you wrote a highway bill that made all the bridges fall down. And they said, yeah, but that only kills drivers.

What about people at home? I mean, it is amazing what happened during the week. The Freedom Caucus kept taking away more things, more health care benefits, to make it more attractive to psychopaths. In the last version, they had cut, hospitalization, doctor visits, maternity, mental health, lab tests, prescriptions,

emergency room visits. Their version of health care was, if you like your doctor, go fuck yourself. And the Freedom Caucus still wouldn't go along with it. Speaking for them, Congressman Ted Yoho said, yes? That's all on him.

That's his name. This is his quote. He said, it would still, quote, leave a skeleton for the Affordable Care Act. And he will not stand any health care plan that leaves America with the skeleton. He's a veterinarian.

I mean a veterinarian. Which means his voters think he was in the army. Republicans just have to admit crafting legislation is just not your thing. Calling into talk radio and screaming about Mexicans, yes.

Posting Photoshop's of Hillary with devil horns, yes. Naming buildings after Reagan. of course. Secret gay sex at highway rest stops, yes. But not legislation. But, you know, there was so much news this week.

This was only the end of the week, the health care thing. But besides Trump care, there was the Supreme Court hearings we had. There was the Russia news. We're burying the lead with that. The Keystone pipeline got okay today. There was so much news, I'm going nuts, trying to keep up. I've got the hearings on TV, you got the president on Twitter. I got Kelly Ann on the microwave.

Now, did you watch those hearings with the nominee Neil Gorsuch for the Supreme Court? This is a guy, Neil Gorsuch. He interprets the Constitution as the framers intended when they wrote it 226 years ago, which they say makes him an originalist, also Amish. Yeah, that's what the court needs. Another guy who says, what would slaveholders do? But here's our real descent into the Banana Republic. Ivanka, you know Ivanka, Trump, his beautiful daughter wife, Ivanka.

This week, she was given an office right there in the West Wing and security clearance to see classified information. She will not be paid a salary because she's a woman. But in lieu of a paycheck, she worked at a deal where the nuclear codes will now be capital. in a purse from the Ivanka collection. So, but you know what? This is how crazy fucked up we are in this country. This is how crazy it's gotten.

I'm glad she's there. Yes, this is Banana Republic stuff, but next to him, I'm glad Ivanka is there to talk. It's like when Janet Jackson used to visit the Neverland Rand and talk to Michael. All right, we've got a great show. Chris Hayes, Louise Minch, and Max Brooks are here.

and a little later I'll be speaking with Yale History Professor Timothy Snyder. But first up, he's a columnist for the Hill and the chairman of the American Conservative Union. I know you are all members. Please welcome. Please welcome. Matt Schlapp. Thank you.

Hey. How you doing? Thank you for being here. I think good to be here. Well, I really want to thank you for being here. I mean, I have been in your position where you have to come to a place where the audience is not with you. It's not...

But was that church? Yeah, pretty good. Can I leave now? I think I did good. No, no, you did good. All right. Okay. But I...

So, let's try to talk in a way, not because I know we're from different sides of the aisle. You're a Trump supporter. I am not. And start with what we agree with. I think you would agree that you're not blind. to why a lot of people are freaking out about him, right? No.

Great. See? We're starting already. Okay. And that's because, for example, the Time magazine came out today. I read it. Okay. And the title was, is truth dead?

Right. And that's because of him that we're asking that question. Do you think that that's fair, that we ask that question because of Donald Trump? I think everything's fair. And I think what people who fear Donald Trump want to know is, you know, is he full of a little bullshit sometimes and a little bit of hype? Or is there something else there that you worry about a little more?

And I would say as a Trump supporter that I actually think it is part of someone who's not been involved in politics, who's come into the system, has had amazing success in a very short period of time. No. Yes, he has. What success has we had? Well, he became the president. That, okay. He had political success.

Political success. Yes. That's different. Yes. He fooled people. Okay. All right. Let's like, let's stay on what we agree with.

Let me read with the Wall Street Journal. Not exactly a liberal publication said. If President Trump announces that North Korea launched a missile that landed within 100 miles of Hawaii, would most Americans believe him? We're not sure, which speaks to the damage that he's done to the president. with this endless stream of exaggerations, evidence-free accusations, implausible denials, and other falsehoods. Look, I think everyone should ask him the tough questions

and hold him to account for what he says. But if he says something that's... Do you think he's a liar on a scale we have never seen? No, I don't. Really? I think he ran against somebody who was a liar on a scale. We haven't seen any longer. I really do.

I think that one of the reasons Donald Trump is president is because the Clintons didn't really ring true with a lot of people. You have to agree to that. I'm talking about a scale we've never seen before. I'm talking about a different scale. Like, I see 3 million people who don't exist. I think

President Obama wiretapped me when even Republicans have come out and said, that's bullshit. You don't think that's a different level of lying? I think that when it comes on the wiretapping charge, quite honestly, there's no evidence for it. So isn't that a different level of lying? I think that that was quite an

extraordinary tweet. Is it a different level of rhyme? And they're investigating it now. I'll tell you this. If they find no... Investigating it. They are. They're investigating. It's a bipartisan investigation. And the FBI's investigating. Look, Bill, if they find that there's no proof for what he said, then... But that's, if they find... See, this is the damage

I think he's doing to this country. The fact that he says something, and then we all have to scramble, not we all, your team. Right. Has to scramble to pretend that the Mad King actually saw a 12-foot bunny on the lawn.

So that you have... I mean, what we saw was this guy, Devin Nunes. Now, he's the chairman of the Intelligence Committee. This was always bipartisan. This was the one place where bipartisan reigned, because we have a great

country in the sense that the intelligence agencies, they're not just there on their own. They have to share their information. But we were smart. We said, not the whole Congress because they can't keep the secret. They can't. Okay, but they got to tell somebody. That's right. So it's the Intelligence Committee,

just six or eight people. He's head of that. Okay, so this week, he ran over to the White House with some bullshit that was a nothing burger that Trump's name came up on incidental collection, not what Trump said that he was wiretow.

That's right. And it probably wouldn't have if he didn't have Putin on speed dial. But can I just bring up this incident? They were tapping Russians. that's what they do. And his name came up. This is legal. This is normal.

And he went over there to give Trump covers. See, this is what I'm talking about. The fabric of democracy, little tears, the Intelligence Committee, which was something that was bipartisan. Now we fucked that up.

Now we ruined that. I don't think we've ruined it. Well, I think we haven't done it a lot of help. They're going to come out with a report. It'll be a bipartisan report. And the FBI is going to come out. with findings as well. And maybe we can go back to there is maybe an area here that we do agree on, which is all of this incidental surveillance and all of this, they call it, you know, just the

common ordinary thing where they pick up conversations. I'm troubled by that. I wasn't always troubled by that. I'm more troubled by that as I see how extensive this is. I don't think it's appropriate that they just pick up someone's conversation. We talk about a wiretap. They actually don't, wiretapping is a very specialized thing, but the surveillance that goes on by intelligence agencies is too broad. You loved it when Bush was president. Okay. But that's... No, it's much broader now. We know because technology

can get everywhere. If we want to have that discussion about whether the spy agency should be doing that, we can. But that's not what this was about. Let's not pretend it is. We're trying to have an agreement on a real basis. But we do agree on that. Well, we agree that it should be looked at. And it should be... They should go after narrow targets.

And by the way, if those targets are members of the Trump team that had inappropriate contact with Russia, I'm absolutely fine with them being investigated. I think if they didn't do anything wrong, they want their names cleared, but if they did something wrong, the American people should know about it.

But there is a, okay, I'm just saying, there is a problem when the president says some bat-shit thing that he does because of his ego. You would admit he's an egoist, right? An egomaniac. Health-nich. An ego-maniac. I'll use my own words.

What about a narcissist? Everyone in politics is a narcissist. Can you see this? The names are on everything. How about a guy who will never admit he's wrong? Is he that? Okay, so let's go through presidents admitting that they're wrong. Do presidents tend to admit a lot that they're wrong?

I've seen every president do it. Give me the examples. When did Obama admit he was wrong? Obama admitted he was wrong when he said, if you want to keep your doctor, you can have your doctor. Okay, that's right. Which is his big law. And the website, he apologized for it.

Yes, and his website. I mean, everybody has a level of humility. You must see that this guy is different. And if he, if his tweets... I'm just asking you to see. I do. I do. And if the tweets, if what he says is wrong and if the tweets turn out to be wrong,

he ought to have the character to apologize. And I say, wait, to this investigation is concluded. Comey, let's get to that part of the week. Yes. That was all the way back on Monday. Yes. Yes. When the FBI director was out there, and he said, yeah, we've been looking into collusion.

Between the Trump team and Russia since July. So, and then CNN reports, there actually is collusion. Adam Schiff, who is the Democrat on the Intelligence Committee, said this was a change this week. He said, yes, it's not just we're looking for it. We have it now. I heard him say that. If there is such a thing as collusion, that's treason and impeachable?

Would you agree with that? Incredibly serious, especially... Is it treason? It's about the worst thing I heard of. I don't know what the legal... Why? I think it's probably treasonous. I think it's probably treasonous. You know, I think it's terrible. I bet you if it was a Democrat, it would be definitely treasonous.

I'm guessing if it was Hillary. Bill. There would be no probably in there. I'm just guessing. Let me use my words here. I think Vladimir Putin's a terrible thug. I think that we have a huge problem with him. I don't want to go to war with him, but I am worried about what he is doing.

I think he surveils and tries to influence this country in every way he can. I think he did try to get it, hack our elections. And I think if anybody involved in the Trump campaign was involved in that, I think that is about the most serious crime you could commit. Well, that would be treason the most serious crimes. Fine, whatever. Okay. So we say treason. Okay.

But let's wait until there's the investigation. We're not arguing about that. But we're saying if, and indulge me because that is what the FBI director says he's doing. That's right. I'm glad he's doing it. Okay, great. So if it is, it's treason. And you would say that that's impeachable, right?

Well, the impeachable piece. The impeachable, hold on, the impeachment. You've just trumped to Donald Trump with impeachment. I'm just saying if, I'm saying if someone commits this crime, it's treason, and that's impeachable. If you commit treason, I think you should be impeached. How about that? Absolutely. Is this just water here? Is that like this? Well, actually, we switched it on Darrell Issa a few weeks ago, but that's a different story. All right. Last question, because health care went down.

this week. Okay. The deal maker in charge, who was the greatest deal maker, couldn't get it done. Are you talking about Paul Ryan? No, I'm talking about... Well, Paul Ryan doesn't even understand what insurance is, but that's another story. Okay, so let me take

I know what your argument is. And there's a side to it, which is, look, people in this country are too indulged. They're too entitled. They get too much from the government. I would even agree with that. And by the way, some white people, too.

That's true. Some white people get too much. And some Trump supporters. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So that's what, you know, when I, we see what the Freedom Caucus wanted to cut, you're like, well, that's,

that's pretty, uh, it's pretty rough stuff. You know, you're cutting emergency room visits and stuff like that. But their view is, look, this is a product like any other, and, you know, you should be able to offend your own way. But then you are going to have to take responsibility for the fact that if this did

pass, people would die. You're okay with that to make that point that people should be on their own? I'm not okay with the idea that people dying, no, but I think that it would have been smart to get the process started by passing something in the house and coming up with an alternative. Look, we've been running around the country for seven years

saying that we have an Obamacare alternative, and when it doesn't pass the House, it's hard to say you have an Obamacare alternative. So I would like this to get started. Right. But do you watch any other shows news channels beside Fox.

I'm just asking, I'm not being snarky. No, I'm on MSNBC and CNN and Bloomberg. I see you and Chris Matthews all the time. Okay, but do you watch it? Yes. Because, like, every day they have... I watch Chris Matthews today. They have people at town hall meetings.

And the theme that comes up over and over again is the people standing up and saying to the congressman, if you do this, you know I will die. And you can tell they're being real. I will die. Yeah, look, this is the reason why health care is about the most difficult public policy. to ever get done. Hillary Clinton tried it.

It's tough because it's someone's life. It's someone's life. Let me try to go here, okay? So the fact is this, do we have to have an alternative? Absolutely. You can't run around and just be against things. You have to talk about what you're for. And I think one of the reasons why Obamacare was a problem politically for the Democrats. And as you know,

they did do a lot of losing over the course of the last eight years. And one of the central reasons, if you believe polling, is because people were dissatisfied with Obama care. It wasn't a bunch of rich people. It was working-class people who saw their premiums go up and they didn't see their health care getting better. They felt like the guys

who were working felt like they were paying for other people who weren't. You're right. Both sides were disingenuous about this. I said it last week on our show. The Democrat should have owned the fact this is wealth redistribution. It is. Millionaires paid more so poor people could live. And a lot of middle class people... How horrible.

A lot of middle class people paid more. A lot of middle class people paid more. Yes, some of that. It's true. And that's why they voted as they voted. But Trump said today, He said, you've all heard my speeches. I never said repeal and replace within 64 days. Here's what he said.

You're going to end up with great health care for a fraction of the price that's going to take place immediately. Okay? Immediately. Fast. Quick. He's a fucking liar. Isn't that a lot?

Wait, wait. But I just read it. He said, fraction of the cost, great health care immediately. Okay. But today he said, I never said it would take place within 64 days. How was that not a lie? Okay, so Tom Price has been confirmed to be the Secretary of HHS.

Tom Price. How is that not a lie? Because the person he picked to be the Secretary of HHS can make big changes in the health care system. This is true. You know that Kathleen Sebelius, a lot of Obamacare went through... But he said immediately. But that is going to happen immediately. He's there.

But immediately is over. You mean that he meant that the bill would pass and immediately be implemented immediately. Okay. Thank you. I tried very hard. I tried to. And I'm going to keep trying. I know you're not a bad guy.

All right. Matt Schrad. Give him a hand. It's not easy. All right. Let's meet our... I tried. All right.

All right. Let's meet our panel. He's a fellow at the Atlantic Council and the Modern War Institute. Max Brooks is over here. She is a former member of the British Parliament, who is now a vice president at News Corporation's Louise Mench. Hey, Louise. And he's the host of MSNBC's All In with Chris Hayes

and author of a great new book, A Colony in a Nation. Chris Hayes. Well, let's see if you guys can succeed where I failed so miserable. This, you know, every week I say, we can't just talk about Trump. Fuck that this week. This is an all Trump week. I'm going to start. Ted Liu, who is actually my congressman and a great congressman, he was supposed to be here.

Max, thank you for filling in it at the last minute. Let me read his statement, because I think this is interesting stuff. He says, the bombshell revelation that U.S. officials have information that suggests Trump associates may have colluded with the Russians means we must pause the entire Trump agenda. We may have a... We may have an illegitimate president occupying the White House. Other than routine government functions, there must be a total and complete shutdown of any agenda item. In other words, until we figure out what the hell is going on.

We don't know what the hell is going. We've got to figure it out first. No one knows. What do you think about this? Well, speaking for Ted Lou. I think he's speaking to a bigger point is when are we going to get, as liberals as Democrats, when are we going to get our FDR

balls back? And when are we going to fight? Because trying to negotiate and hug it out is not working, and it doesn't work. Because we're not trying to negotiate with people like us. We're negotiating with America's Hamas. And they respect strength and power and force. And that's it.

And that's how we begin the panel just comes. Now, what are you up to say? Well, I mean, I... Top that. I don't think... It strikes me every morning when I wake up that we're waking up in a country in which the President of the United States

is under investigation by the FBI for possible collusion with a foreign adversary, as stated by the director of the FBI in open congressional testimony, which is just bananas. So what do you do with that, right? I mean, at some level, I understand what Ted Lu is saying, and that seems perfectly reasonable.

But the other thing is that the freight train is still moving, right? Like normal politics keeps going on. There is no pause button to hit other than opposition. Well, he's saying should it. And I agree with that. You know, the problem is that human beings, by our nature, we get used to whatever's going on and it becomes normal. And we cannot allow what is not normal, which is Trump and what he does,

to become normal or to think it's normal. It's easier to just, yeah, I'm tired. I'm tired of it too. I'm sick today because of Donald Trump. I feel your pain, but I think Representative Liu is maybe he's a little bit of a scattergun approach here. You can't shut the whole government down, no matter how much you might like it, they've got the votes. So I tell the Democrats, pick the battles that count. One thing I would like to see is Nunez chucked off that committee.

And right now, although... How can you do that? You know what? Even the wonderful Adam Schiff, who's doing such a great job, and Representative Swarwell, fantastic, but they have not said he's got to go. They've said, this is terrible.

They've said maybe, maybe Ryan, maybe the speaker should do something. You've got to say, the guy has to go now. I don't care if he's your mate. I don't care if he's your buddy. He's got to go. He's got to go. Can I make a...

They say no. We have the votes. We're the Republicans. At least bring the fight to them. At least bring the fight to them. This is the committee that's supposed to be investigating treason. But here's my, let me respond to the idea of normalcy, right?

Because I think this has been a big theme, right? And it's absolutely true. It's unbelievable what people will adjust to. And all the people that have written articles from the perspective of prison. Turkey, prison. People get used to prison. Yeah, they get used to anything. I mean, I...

They're not gay. No, I mean, people go into prison and they go, yeah, I wasn't gay, but, you know, I was lonely and, yeah, we did it in the... Right. We did it in the naughty place, and... Gay for the stay. Gay for this... You seem to know a lot about it.

As I was saying about getting used to things, I mean, we do get used to things, and I think normalizing is a threat. But the other thing I would say is, in some ways, one of the things we saw this week was normal politics working. In the sphere of health care, that was a very normal kind of thing.

Like, they proposed a bill, the bill was bad, people rebel. So we reach for these abnormal solutions, which is like hit a pause button. which I understand the impulse to, but the only real victories that have come have been victories through normal politics, fighting on that terrain.

Okay. So, but can you tell us anything about the Russia thing? You seem to have a lot of scoops and a lot of information, a lot of sources, and a lot of bodies buried where we don't know where they are and who they are. So what do you know? And you think this is true?

You think we're going to hear stuff that is absolute evidence of collusion? Absolutely, but we're going to hear it when Director Comey wants us to hear it, and not before, no matter how much everybody else huffs and puffs. I would say, if you were on Twitter, you should be following the patriotic hacker the jester, who said two nights ago before Nunez comes out with this bizarre statement about whatever, wiretapping, that he has the champagne on ice and it's going to be a bumpy ride for the next few months. I will say, I think we're a lot further down the line to the end of this than most people think. I sense panic at the White House. I sense an absolute... They are sweating like a horrid church.

Yes, sir. They act common for the... Because... But here's what I worry about. I mean, Comey, when he basically threw Hillary under the bus right before the election, we heard that was because

he had to do it because he was losing control of his own agency. Yep. They called it Trumplandia in certain divisions of the... FBI. So if Trumplandia is still existing in the FBI, is he going to be able to now turn on Donald Trump, or at least give the truth, which would be... People have forgotten that there's a Department of Justice investigation right now into those FBI agents in the field office in New York who are leaking to Flynn, leaking to Giuliani, and the NYPD who are leaking to Eric Prince,

brother of Betsy DeVos. There is a Justice Department investigation that nobody is talking about. But the Justice Department is run by Jeff Session. Not anymore. I mean, you know, as everything is Russia. He has to recuse himself from Russia. This is absolutely part of that. And I would just say to people, there are two sides to the FBI, right? There's a criminal field office division that we're talking about in New York. And there's the counterintelligence division that issued the FISA warrant, as I reported. And James Comey, I think, is taking it very seriously indeed. The reason that he could talk about Hillary. To you have faith that he's going to come through. Because he was our hero. Lot twist. Remember back when with Bush by the hospital.

That was a whole stick. That was why he got, that was, it was the hospital bed moment that got, that made him the director of the API. That was the, the, the towering integrity. And every, the thing that- Is he that guy? No, here's the, the Hillary guy? Is he going to go back to the hospital bed guy? The thing that everybody says about James Comey, uh, that they, he's very talented, that he inspires tremendous loyalty.

They also say he has just an absolute towering conception of himself. And, I mean, he's literally very tall, but, but, and a certain, and a certain kind of moral narcissism. Like, he is very, very, very. into James Comey being the guy, the only straight shooter in a crooked town. And I think that that was the whole brand that he built for himself out of the hospital bed moment. It's the reason he was directly the FBI. It was the brand that he cloaked himself in when he came out and completely violated every policy to give his own opinions on Hillary Clinton's email practices when he was choosing not to indict her.

It was the reason that he said he wrote the letter. And so there's some part of me that wonders if the story ends with him trying to find redemption, essentially through this investigation. Okay. I think he's a good guy. I'm sorry. I really do. I know it's a plot twist.

I know it's hard for liberals. I believe he's a good guy. I want to believe that too. I got to cling to something, and I'm still clinging to that tall man. I believe he's very tall. I think he followed the law. I really do.

So, listen, I saw this picture of Don Trump Jr. in the New York Times style section on Sunday. And I just had to do something about this. because, you know, on a certain sense, I've heard this many times in my life. It's not easy to be the son of a great man. Some people think Donald Trump is a great man. He certainly is a prominent man.

And Don Jr., you know, I think, is always wanted to say, look, I'm not just Uday or Cusei Hussein. I'm not just baby doc Duvalier. I'm not Kim Jong-un. Kim Jong-Duh, what? whatever, you know, I'm my own person. Don't hate me for being Donald Trump's son, and I don't. I hate him because he shoots fucking lions.

Anyway, but this picture made me realize that he's actually kind of an introspective guy. And I didn't realize it. He wrote a book called Kind of an Introspective Guy. And I'm going to read some of the passages. For example, before I touched it, this tree was alive. Now look at it. That's the power of a Trump. When I look at people, I don't see white, black, brown, or red.

I see a chauffeur, a cook, a gardener, and a drunk trying to stop Daddy from oil drilling. When I gaze up at the stars, I'm struck with a sense of the divine that I almost forget I'm being blown in a convertible. Excuse me. If Dad and Putin were just wrestling, Why they act so weird when I walk in?

My dad's jokes always make me laugh because I want him to leave me money when he dies. If Dad and Ivanka were just wrestling, I don't need to be the best to be a worthwhile person who deserves love. I just need to be better than Tiffany. Poor Tiffany. Poor Tiffany. If father ever hugged me, would he count it as grapping a pussy? Okay.

Next guest, he is a Yale history professor whose latest book is On Tyranny, 20 lessons from the 20th century, Timothy Snyder. Timothy, how you doing, sir? Great to see you. Great to see you. All right. So, you are, your expert is in,

expertise is in tyranny. So this is your busy season. Yes. And you offer 20 lessons, but this is TV. Give us the top. Three. Okay. Let me give you three in a bonus. The first is don't obey in advance. It's normal to adjust to a situation. Don't obey. Don't obey in advance, right? Don't obey the dictator. Don't obey the shift. Don't obey the drift. Don't follow whatever else is doing. When there's a special moment like the present one, figure out what you stand for and be yourself. Normally, normally we adjust. Apparently I've not read this book. Yeah. See, I'm worried about the confusion. Do we not show that one? Could we show the other one?

He cares about tyranny and books at. That's what I love about their professor. Okay, number two, defend institutions, right? This is a time when people like you and me and their friends say, the institutions are going to save us. This is wrong, right? We have to save the institutions. They don't rule on their own, right?

So this is the moment of ask not what the institutions can do for me. it's ask what you can do for the institutions. Fill them out, support them, don't expect them to be robots because they're not. Number three, believe in truth. Believe in truth. Without truth, we don't have trust. Without trust, we don't have the rule of law.

Without the rule of law, we don't have democracy. So people who are going for post-fact, people who are against the truth, they're taking the direct line to killing democracy. It's the shortcut to getting rid of democracy. When we think about Bill, when we think about post-fact, when we think about post-fact, we think post-modernism, then we think Berkeley and baguettes and France and nice things.

But what we should be thinking about, in all seriousness, is fascism. It's the fascists who said, everyday life doesn't matter, details don't matter, facts don't matter. All that matters is the message, the leader, the myth, the totality. We should be thinking about the 1920s. Right. I mean, if you... I made a little list of things about Donald Trump. Which, you know, remind me of third world dictators.

You're a narcissist who likes putting his name on buildings. That's what they do. And, yeah. You appoint your family members to positions of power. Your rallies are scary. You hate the press and use your own propaganda outlet instead. You want to hold missile parades. You know, you want it to have a missile parade.

but use your office for your own personal financial gain. You like other dictators and strongmen. You claim minorities are the cause of the economic anxieties of the majority. You lie so freely your supporters give up. It's everyone except dressing in a military costume. When is that coming, Doc? Yeah. Right.

So, I mean, I'm not going to laugh at any of that. Is that just funny? No, I'm not going to laugh at any of that because, you know, in your role, the third world, dictators, in my world, where I come from, it's the 1930s. Picking out a group of your neighbors and citizens and associating them with a worldwide threat, that's the 1930s, right? And what we have to remember about the 1930s, we think of Hitler and Stalin as supervillains,

but they're not. They could only come to power with some form of consent. It was elected. Right. Exactly. So this is the way regime change normally happens. There's an election by the rules, more or less. We'll talk more about that later.

and after the election from within the regime is changed, step by step, which, by the way, is the bonus lesson. The thing that I really worry about is a lesson towards the end of the book is the Reichstag fire. That moment when a leader... I'll tell them what it was. Oh, okay. So, I'll tell you.

I know. Tell them. All right. So if you insist. And Hitler gets elected in 1933. Elected. Right. So you're elected. You don't necessarily have policies

that are popular. After the election, there's a mysterious terrorist attack. You use that as the occasion to spin civil rights. Hitler's. Right. Henschman burned down the Reichstag, which was their parliament. We don't know who burned the rights. And they blamed it on the Mexicans.

Well, no, it was it was the Muslims. But the point is, the serious point is, when the terrorist attack comes, you will not necessarily know who did it. But what you can know is that certain kinds of leaders will use that moment to suspend your rights. So when that moment

comes, despite your fear and your grief, during your fear and your grief, you have to mobilize and protest for your own rights. Because the Reichstag fire is the oldest trick in the Hitlerian book. We cannot let that trick be played.

Okay. I'm glad you said that. I want to read three quick stats to you and the panel. That is germane to this whole discussion. Trump voters, 51% of them think Trump should be able to overturn decisions by judges that he disagrees with. These are the people who carried the Constitution in their pocket and wave it. In 1995, one in 16 Americans said army rule would be a good thing.

Now it's one in six. And people keep talking about the hope is the young people. Fuck. Millennials. Only about 30% of millennials. 30% think it's essential to live in a democracy. That's what I'm worried about. I think about this all the time because in two ways. One is that the generation of people that experience fascism and world war are dying off.

The generation of people that have experienced the alternatives to the boring frustrations of liberal democracy have died off. And look, there are so many problems with the international liberal order as constituted. And Donald Trump, when he says NATO needs to pay more. and everyone seems to be screwing us. And, yeah, there's a lot of problems with it. The EU, as we saw in Brexit. But the alternative was barbarism, an inconscionable scale,

with two of the worst wars in human history within the span of three decades. And that has been completely lost to our social and political consciousness in the developed world. But Chris, we... Because we don't teach history. But we also...

That's exactly right. But we also chose to lose it. Because after 1989, we said, history is over. The details don't matter. We can forget about the important concepts. And so we then raised a generation without history, without references to the alternatives that you've talked about. And we raised them, we raised them without a shitload of homework that goes with being a citizen.

Right. And nobody said to that. The two things we don't teach anymore, civics and history. And the worst thing you can say as liberals is, he's not my president. Yes, he is, which means he works for us. Right. We are the boss, and we must demand that he do the job. I think to your point about the 1920s and your point, Bill, about those terrible things that people believe,

there's also the propaganda issue. In the 1920s and the rise of fascism, demonizing people with anti-Semitic cartoons and so forth, the modern-day version of that is fake news. And this country is under attack on its social networks from Russian-funded, Russian-pushed propaganda that is uniquely tailored to each individual group. And, by the way, it was deployed in our election. It's being deployed right now in France. It's being deployed all over the world.

And we found out this week that Trump's campaign manager, Paul Manafort, was on the payroll to the tune of $10 million... 10 bills, dude. $10 million a year to, I forget the phrase, but basically use the media and something else like advertising. Right. And the term is called the Garasimalt. doctrine, and that's used by the Russians

as what's called hybrid warfare, where it's literally 50 shades of gray between war and peace. And that is literally how they are conducting post Cold War military actions to reclaim their lost empire. It's economic, it's military, it's political, and it is propaganda.

Yeah, but exactly. And this guy who is working for the people who say America first, he's on the payroll to advance Putin's agenda. Putin's agenda is to call into question the value of Western-style democracy.

When the Soviet Union fell, I think we all have this illusion that, oh, communism is over. Now we can be buddy-buddies with the Russian because we don't have anything separating us anymore. And that was bullshit. Even with communism gone, there was a lot separating it, because it's a police state.

And we forget, they lost and they're hurting. And we didn't come and rebuild them the way we did Western Europe with the Marshall Plan. We let them languish. But Putin's agenda. that Manafort was working for is not our agenda. That's treasonous. You know what? America first. That's not

patriotic? America first. What's... It would be hilarious about it if it wasn't actually happening to us in real life. But America First is a Russian slogan. It's a Nazi slogan being pushed by Russia who are quite literally attacking

not only America, but the whole of the West. Every country in Europe is undergoing these bots. And what are we doing about it? Can I say one thing, though? I feel like there is a little bit of a temptation to create Donald Trump as some sort of foreign project. Like, Donald Trump is

super American. Let's just be clear that like, who, he, the idea that it was, it was the product of forum, it was the product of foreign manipulation that gave us Donald Trump. Like, Donald Trump came to write. But, yes, no, that may or may not. But look, their propaganda

aims for our weaknesses, the way that a snuffer aims for the lungs and the head. So, they, know us, they know how to work with us, and they've done it very well. Donald Trump is American, right, but his advisors have worked with the Russians,

right? His investors are Russian, his post-fact style is Russian, and his whole idea of greatness is actually Russian. There are billboards up in Russia now. Comey said on... ...saying, let's make the world great together. What Comey said on Monday

was that Putin hated Hillary so much. Who else hates Hillary? The Republicans and Trump. They had a common enemy, a common goal. Do we really think that Donald Trump, who has never done anything in his life, except by the doctrine of winning,

is all that matters, would have the moral fiber to resist, the fact that they have this common enemy that they're working against? Let's also be curious. He literally told them to hack her. Right. Into a camera.

It's like we have this big investigation. I'm like, well, maybe there's collusion. He looked into a camera and said to hacker. Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more. Before we went out of time, London. London. Another terrorist attack this week, and ISIS claimed credit.

I was surprised because I thought we had wiped out ISIS on day one, as Donald Trump said it would be 30 days. So, yeah, he's behind schedule, but, I mean, ISIS aren't to credible source, number one. And number two, this is another example of exactly what you were talking about, where we take one group of people and we demonize them. The guy was British-born. His name was Adrian. before he converted.

And when this awful terrorist attack happened and people lost their lives, including an American and a British policeman, partisans of Russia were out in the streets saying it was an illegal immigrant that did it, trying to turn London people against our Muslim friends and neighbors. Although you are not going to do that, Sonshire. But let's not pretend it has nothing to do with Islam, the religion.

It doesn't. It has nothing to do with Islam? That's very interesting. It has nothing. The way that Timmy McVeyer had nothing to do with Roman Catholic. Because every time some bomb goes off, before it goes off, somebody yells Allaho Opgar. I never heard anybody go, Merry Christmas. But to say nothing.

This one's for the flying nun. Yeah, well, they shut up a mosque in Canada. And they shut up a mosque in Canada. And you do in fact see neo-Nazi things all the time. And they do shout out racist slogans. It's just that we don't cover them in the same way. How? No, but when Christians do things like this, do we ever say Christian terrorism?

Never. No, but is Christian terrorism as big a problem? problem. Are there Christian... If you lived in Oklahoma City in the 90s? Phil, we're talking about London. That's, again, a false equivalency. What about London? What about London? Are there Christian terrorist...

Excuse me, are there Christian terrorist armies, like ISIS. There are... Exactly. Thank you. For 15 years. Yes, that's the past. Oh, right. But were they... But we're living now.

But was the Irish a Catholic phenomenon? Yes, there was also the Inquisition. That was the past. Right, but was it a Catholic phenomenon? Christian terrorist armies like ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, al-Shabaab, are there armies like that

in the world that are not Muslim? When I grew up, there were. Let's not fuck around with this anymore. Can we please get real? No, I don't agree with you. I literally don't agree with you. Russia is sending Chechen militants into ISIS and they are absolutely trying to leverage this

against a billion peaceful people. Time for new rules. That's what I believe. New Rule, don't take your iPhone in the bath, especially if it's plugged into the wall. A London man did that last week and died, and when they found him in the water, they tried to dry him out in a bag full of rice.

New Rule, celebrities have to stop giving interviews where they say they wish they weren't a celebrity. Like Selena Gomez, who told Vogue this month, I really can't wait for people to forget about me. If only there wasn't that law forcing her to give interviews, views to magazines. All she wants is to be left alone, but this limo keeps pulling up and taking

her to concerts and photo shoots. It's so unfair! New rule, now that the Brazilian goalie, Bruno de Sousa, is back playing pro soccer after serving time for torturing and murdering his ex-girlfriend, because he didn't want to pay child support,

Americans have to calm the hell down about Tom Brady. Yeah, he likes Trump and cheated a little. Get back when he runs Giselle through a wood chipper. New Rule, someone has to explain why Cubans are poor and have next to nothing, and they make music like

this. While America is the richest country in the world, and we make music like this. New Rule, if you're using If you're using Hush, the vibrating butt plug, yeah, I said vibrating butt plug, that your partner

operates remotely from another location using their smartphone, you have to look at your intimacy issues. Hush, it brings a whole new meaning to the phrase, hold on, I'm going through a tunnel. And finally, new rule, America needs more Republicans like this guy. This man should be commended,

and not just for being the first Trump voter to get all the spelling right on a sign. But because it's not easy to admit that you've been taken by a con man. Now, during the campaign, campaign, conman Trump, said this about the high cost of pharmaceuticals. And we're going to get drug prices so far lower than they are now, your head will spin. That's right. He promised to use his deal-making superpowers to get the drug companies to cut prices.

But after the election, he sat down with the executives of Big Pharma. And what do you know? It turns out the solution isn't to get tough at all. It's to cut regulations. Fuck! He promised the Keystone pipeline would be built with American steel. It won't. He promised to be the savior of coal miners, but here was the headline last month. Trump's budget slams West Virginia. I know you real Americans hate being called stupid, but you got to meet me halfway and stop being stupid. I mean, I would say Trump was a used car salesman, but with a used car salesman, at least you get a car.

With Trump, you don't get a car. any car, but you definitely get taken for a ride. He promised, and I quote, we're going to have insurance for everybody, much less expensive and much better. But when we saw the bill, it was a giant tax cut for the rich paid by kicking

24 million people off their health insurance. What a truly novel approach to making health care less expensive, saving money by not giving people health care. It's like saving money on your kids' education by letting them stay home and watch Judge Judy. And again, I don't want to use the S word. But then you have to tell me how this sounded at all possible.

You're going to end up with great health care for a fraction of the price, and that's going to take place immediately after we go in, okay? Immediately. Fast, quick. Believing health care could be way better at a fraction of the cost. is so silly. Let's call it silly. The Trump approach to health care was never going to be repeal and replaced.

It was always bait and switch. Because that is the con man's approach to everything. Did I say health insurance for all? I meant access to insurance. Did I say Mexico would pay for the beautiful wall that keeps drug dealers out and locks. the freshness in. I met Mexico would pay us

back. I will build a great, great wall on our southern border, and I will have Mexico pay for that wall. Act now, and we'll throw in a second wall absolutely true. Trump has promised jobs. You're probably wondering, will these

be good jobs? I'm glad you asked. Massive numbers of jobs. High-paying jobs, good jobs. Not the jobs we have today, which everybody agrees. are bad jobs. We're going to create massive numbers of good jobs.

Right. Good jobs in the burgeoning new field of something terrific. You know, you Trumpsters, you didn't elect the next Reagan. You elected this guy. I invite you to come to my seminar, learn how to make a lot of money.

Once you have a taste of a good life, you will never go back. You will... You elected every cheap huckster, who you should have known, was full of shit because he was always promising the moon. Everything is always foolproof, and 100%. But it is a foolproof way of winning. It will be absolutely 100%.

They'll let a minimum come to the table, and actually, they'll be defeated very quickly. Folks, how much would you pay to get rid of ISIS very quickly? Don't answer yet, because not only will ISIS be gone like that, Here's our guarantee on undocumented immigrants. They're going out so fast your head will spin. So which do you like better? Winning so much, you're tired of winning or having your head spin. Their heads would spin.

Your head will spin. Winning, winning. Winning, winning. Winning, winning big league. It's too much winning. We can't take it anymore. Order now, and we will throw in everything. I will give you everything.

I will give you what you've been looking. for 30, 40, 50 years. Really? Everything? Everything, he said. Okay, I won't mock you anymore. You're not the first people to be fooled by a guy

like Donald Trump. What's your name? Stanley Dowowski. Polish, eh? What a coincidence. Rudy Polansky. How are you? No sense crying over a spilt snake oil.

You can keep liking him, but just admit he is a con man. And a good one. The kind who tells you, I promise I'll pull out while he's coming. All right, that's our show. I'll be at the Mirage in Vegas, May 19th, and 20th.

I want to thanks. Max Brooks, Louise Bench, Chris Hayes, Timothy Snyder, and Matt Schlapp. Join us down for overtime on YouTube. Thank you, folks. Catch all new episodes of Real Time with Bill Maher every Friday night at 10. Or watch them anytime on HBO on demand.

For more information, log on to HBO.com.