Ep. #577: Anne Applebaum, Gillian Tett, Dan Savage
00:00Welcome to an HBOpodcast from the HBO late-night seriesReal Time with Bill Maugh.Thank you so much, Masked Avengers.Appreciate you coming.Thank you, thank you.All right, I know, I know, you're very happy.California's very happy.
00:57Newsom beat the recall.That's our big news this week.It was a landslide.And, of course, because this is California,it was also a brush fire, two earthquakes,a shark attack and a cult murder, but I kid our state.We spent close to $300 million.Do you know this on this stupid recall?
01:20How many homeless people could we have housed for that money?Well, here in California about three.But the point remains, it's the principal.And listen to this, we have another election in 13 months.and Larry Elder, who was the main Republican opponent this time,he hinted that he would like to be the Republican candidate in that election,and he said, lots of Republicans think that's a good idea.And lots of Democrats, too.
01:55But there are a lot of signs the state is getting back to normal.I saw a guy today.Homeless, he was on fire and getting shot.And the bystanders kept yelling,pull up your mask!Yeah, because that's very...we are. Well, the FDAtoday had a lot of
02:20big hearing there. I'm sure we haveCOVID boosters, or asDr. Fauci calls them, the extendedwarranty.And an executive fromPfizer testified. He thoughtthe boosters were a good idea, and they asked himwhy. And he said, I'd like to buy a
02:38boat. Now, this is not goodnews. Lions at theNational Zoo havetested positive for COVID.They think they might have got it at the pride parade.I did that for you, Dan.I know.And here's the big news in literature.
03:09Bob Woodward has a new book full of shocking revelationsabout Trump's last days and about how he would not concede losing the election.Wow, who could have predicted that?Oh, yeah, me, every Friday for four years.Other than that, the new book is a good.It's one of his one-word title books that Woodward has called Peril.Yes.And I don't know how to sum it up except take everything you thought you knew about Donald Trump
03:39and continue thinking it.And the big revelation in the book is that in the period after he lost the electionbefore Biden took over on inauguration day, my birthday, no big deal.I'm trying to get people to associate the two, so I...Every time there's a new president, I get gifts.But Biden's our last president, so it doesn't really matter.Anyway, General Mark Millie, he's the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff,took precautions to limit Trump's ability to start a war,
04:18launch a strike, nuclear shit.You know what? Millie called his counterpart in China,General Lee Zhao Cheng to assure him, look,if this nut tries to nuke you, I promise I will stop it.I think the guy was brave.I think this is an act of great patriotism.But now, General Millie, he's getting it from both sides.The right doesn't like that he went behind Trump's back,
04:44and the left doesn't like that he talked to a guy named General Lee.And he did.This guy should get a medal.He said to him, this is his words, apparently, in the book,he said, General Lee, I want to assure you that the American government is stable,and everything is going to be okay.This is the same thing in amusement park tells youafter a kid dies on the roller coaster.
05:09But now, unfortunately, these folks have not stopped.Tomorrow, in Washington, D.C., there's a big rallycalled Justice for J6.Anyone going?No.Jay 6, that's January 6th.That's the insurrection at the Capitol.This is a rally to support those people.
05:31Yes, they want to raise money.There's about 600 people who are therewho are arrested for, I never heard this term.Breaking and entering.It's at least that, isn't it?I saw that on video.Breaking and entering.That's still against the law, isn't it?
05:45Breaking and entry.It happened to be the Capitol, but you were breaking and entering.So they need a lot of lawyers,which I think is pretty funny for peoplewho used to be chanting.Jews will not replace it.But the organizers saythere will not be any violence.
06:05It's just a little gatheringfor the people who couldn't get off workfor the original coup.But here's the part of the story I love.Now, Q&ON forums online are saying, wait, maybe you shouldn't go,because maybe this is a plot to round us up, to round up, you know, get us back there.And you knew this would eventually happen, right?That they would get there, too paranoid to attend their own paranoia rally.
06:32All right, we've got a great show, Dan Savage, and Julianette are here.First is a fellow at SNF, Agor, Institute at Johns Hopkins,and staff writer at the Atlantic, and author of Twyenne.The highlight of democracy, the seductive lure of authoritarianism, and Applebaum.Hey, yeah.Great to meet you.How you doing?I never assume people shake anymore, whatever you want to.
06:57All right.So your expertise is perfect for this show because it's in how countries slide from democracy into authoritarianism.You know this firsthand, not just from this country.You live in Poland, where that has happened, right?More than once.and currently.And currently, indeed.Yeah.
07:17So we just had this recall election, and I noticed that Larry Elder said before the votes were cast, it's rigged.Trump said the only way Newsom could win is if it was rigged.Well, maybe he could win because it's a highly Democrat state and he's the Democratic governor.You know, there may be some other ways he could win, and it wasn't exactly a A-list field he was up against.but it seems like this is the new normalthat elections just don't count.How do we get back from this placewhere people don't believe
07:51that elections are real?First of all, you're rightthat this is a tacticwell known as part of the authoritarian playbook.It's been used in other times and other places.Cast out on the election,say that whoever wins,if it's not me, it's fake.
08:07Cast out on the people who count the votes.Cast out on the means.media undermine anybody who can do checks and balances. And that way, when you do break the law andwhen you do storm the Capitol and when you do get your protesters and demonstrators to smashthings up, then people will say, you know, you'll have legitimacy to do that. So it's a,what we're watching is really the endgame of a long-term process. You know, Trump has consistently,really from the time he started the birtherism conspiracy theory, he's been undermining theAmerican system very, very systematically.
08:43And getting people back, in other words, persuading people once again to become part of thepolitical mainstream is a huge problem.And, you know, I think it's time to start thinking about it the way we think of a countrylike Northern Ireland.You know, how did they end the divisions there?And you have to start talking about peace treaties.You have to start talking about, you know, teaching people again the rules of the system.You have to start talking about finding common ground.
09:08I mean, we're much farther along, I think, than most of us think.I think it starts with, you're right.Interesting, I never heard that analogy to Northern Ireland.But stopping hate, I think, is the beginning of it.And I see it on both.Yeah.Because if you hate someone, you'll believe anything about them.And you believe they are capable of doing anything.
09:31And that's where we are now.It's not really about the election.It's about I hate these people.I hate them so much, they will do anything.It's about I hate these peopleand only we deserve to win.We are the real Americansjust like I've heard in Poland. We're the real
09:46Poles. And I have to say it, but it is on both sides. One side ison both sides. One side is scarierbecause they have the guns.And one side controlsone of the major political parties in this country.Right. You know, in a...But I must tell you, I canask this question on the show. It's also
10:02a line I've been saying in my stand-up backrecently, what do you dowhen the people in your governmentdon't believe in your form of government.And in a number of times, in a mostly liberal audience,someone has yelled out, kill them.That's a liberal yelling out, kill them.Well, that's not a liberal.
10:20It is.They think they are.Well, it's a Democrat.Or it's someone who identifies themselveson the left.You're being too kind.A true liberal doesn't believe that.A liberal in the classical sense of the word liberal.
10:32Trust me.I'm at my own shows.They do believe that.There's a lot of that belief on both sides that these people,you cannot abide these people.They just have to somehow be extirpated.I'm not saying literally that people want to kill half the country,but they wouldn't be upset if half the country died.
10:53You know, it's just that we can't live with these people.They're not like us at all.Existential threat is the term we hear on both sides.This is what we have to dial back from, don't you think?Because unless we do that, unless we stop seeing the other person,as this ridiculous other that doesn't belong here.I don't see how we're going to ever believe in anything, let alone an election.No, you're right.
11:16Polarization, this kind of division that you're talking about,has the effect of making people doubt the system.In other words, if we haven't won and the other guys are in charge,then it's not real democracy.It's not really America.We're being occupied by a foreign power or by traitorsor if you're Hungarian or Jews or somebody else.And so, yes, you're right.
11:36Seeing the other side is having some legitimate.and finding a way to share the system is fundamental to democracy.And if we don't have that, democracy won't work.I know you've said that the My Pillow guy could destroy democracy,which almost sounds like a joke.But I would remind people that for as long as I've been following politics,whatever sounds like a joke today with the Republicans, tomorrow is the candidate.Reagan was a joke.
12:06I'd love him back now.Yes, yes. And you should hear my liberal relatives talking about what a wonderful person, George Bush was. It's a very similar.More legitimate than Palin or Trump. But, you know, Trump, of course, was a tremendous joke.Nothing is a joke. Nothing is, I could see the My Pillow guy, Tucker Carlson, as the ticket.Yes. Well, so I had lunch with the My Pillow guy, which I wrote about.And, you know, one of the things that disarming about him is he's so normal.I mean, he's a kind of goofy Midwestern businessman on the surface,you know, who wants to take the check for lunch and so on.
12:45And what's, and what you have to realize when you're speaking to himis he's in other ways a normal American.But what he's the beneficiary of is the fact that the more extreme you becomein our media ecosystem, the more you push things,the more attention you get,the more likes and shares you get on Facebook and social media.And he's really taken advantage of this, both for politics and for, I mean, that's how he sells his pillows.You know, he says something extreme on Fox, and then people click on his website and buy pillows.
13:17I mean, so it's a kind of commercial, political game.But I think he's also somebody who genuinely has come to believe some of the wackier conspiracy theories.And really, if kind of, you know, goofy guy from the Midwest can believe it, I think anybody can.It's really important to take these things seriously.And he couldn't have been taken seriously before the age of the Internet and social media, could he?No, he wouldn't have had an outlet to do that.Right.He wouldn't have had a way to sell it.
13:43No, no.Right.I mean, it's really changed the whole game.And you talk about that in your article on the Atlantic,The New Puritans, which is sort of the other side of the coin.You talk about the fact that there's kind of two judicial systems in America.There's the traditional one, which believes in presumption of innocence and degrees of crimesand, you know, letting the statute of limitations run out, things like that.
14:04And then there's the social media, what they call cancel,culture going on.And it's interesting some of the people you interviewed.I think the term victims is overused, but there are true victims of this, not necessarilyones we've heard about or ones who are famous.No, many of them are not famous at all.Many of them aren't people you've heard of.There are people who have fallen victim to a combination of social media mobs plus often
14:30anonymous bureaucracies.There will be university bureaucracies or HR bureaucracies who will, involve.investigate them sometimes without even knowing, without them knowing that they're being investigated.And then they're giving really severe punishments, you know, loss of career, loss of ability to publish,loss of ability to make money, they lose all their friends and all their colleagues, they become ostracized.I mean, these are the kinds of punishments that in another culture would be considered the most severe of all.I mean, right up, the Greeks considered ancient Greeks, ostracism was the next worst thing before the essence.Right. If you can't go to dinner anywhere.
15:07and they look at you like you're O.J. Simpson.Yeah.Yeah. And the people have killed themselves over.Not committed crimes.I mean, they're not people who've been, you know,who've been sentenced before a court of law.Right.I mean, some of them have done shitty things,
15:23and they deserve some degree of that.But there seems to be no statute of limitations.Exactly.There's no statute of limitations.And we don't have any kind of...Exactly.And we don't have any kind of an agreement about what are the limits.Right.
15:32You know, at what point?And also some people do horrible things and get a pass.You know, Charlie Sheen gets a...Super Bowl commercial.You know, he did a lot worse things than Louis C.K.And he couldn't get a Super Bowl commercial.Right.So the other point you make about this is that there are victims and there are also casualties
15:57like free speech.You know, you say if we're going to drive all the difficult people, the demanding people,the eccentric people, I count myself one of all three.You said it, not me.Yeah, no, I'm proud of it.I want to be difficult, demanding, and eccentric.Thank you.Then we're going to have a society that is at a great loss.
16:25You say, what about all the manuscripts that are still in people's draws?Because they just were afraid to publish them.What of all the jokes that go untold?You know, it's a lot about what we don't see because it's unsaid.I think something like 62% of Americans say they're afraid to speak.And that's actually a right-wing and a left-wing thing.I mean, we tend to talk about this as belonging to the political realm.But really, it's a phenomenon created by social media mobs, as I said, by new rules about who's allowed to say what.
16:58People often just don't know what the rules are, and they're afraid of breaking them because they aren't sure what's permitted or what's not.And they change weekly.And they change and they become, you know, they're a different institution to institution.and people, and you're right, and it has a chilling effect on people.And this, again, you know, I've written books about Soviet dictatorship and other kinds of dictatorships.And I know this kind of very extreme form of peer pressure.And it's often just as important as violence and other kinds of threats in keeping people silent.And so it's something we really don't want in our country.
17:31Well, we'll try to avoid that here at this show.Thank you very much for coming by here.Always been a fan of your writing.All right.Let's meet our panel.Okay. She's U.S. editor at large of The Financial Times, an author of Anthrovision, A New Way to See in Business and Life. Jillian Tet is over here. How you doing?Great, thanks.He's the host of the Savage Love cast, an author of Savage Love from A to Z advice on sex and relationships, dating and mating, exes and extras.
18:09Dan Savage is over here.All right, so we're going to get to sex.I know you always want to.I mean, on the panel.But let me start a discussion tonight with this, what we're learning about what happened between Election Day and January 20th,because that's the subject of this new Bob Woodward book.And apparently the generals were very worried that Trump would do something because he wanted to stay in office that would foment a crisis.And I've heard a lot of people on the right say, yeah, typical liberal overreach.
18:46Trump didn't start a war.I would like to answer that tonight and just say,but we know that now.Given the thousand erratic,unprecedented, dangerous things he'd already done,we couldn't have known that at the time.And he did start a war, a cold civil war in this country.It's not just about Trump.
19:13It's also about the fact that Asia right now is a tinderboxand no, we've not had a war so far,but when you look what's happening right now,tensions rising and there could be a war in the future.In Asia?Yeah.With us?Between the US and China.
19:29Yes, absolutely.Really?I mean, that would be catacote.I think both countries know that we...They both know, but here's the issue.It's a bit like the start of World War I.And that's the historical memory that worried so many people in the Pentagon.Because you go back to the Cold War between the U.S. and the Soviet Union,
19:49and you had a hotline between the two countries.They could talk pretty easily.The problem today that people aren't talking enough about is actually the hotline between Washington and Beijing is pretty broken.And that's a backdrop which made people like General Millie so concerned that you could get an accident like at the beginning of World War I.And suddenly everything would spin out of control.Yes.Well, see, this is why I don't eat pot anymore because it made me paranoid.And then I would have to tell myself, yes, anything bad thing could happen.
20:21that's what happens when I eat potI only think about what badcould possibly happenI think this could possibly happenI don't that's not even on number10 of my listI'm so much more worried about the environmentand never
20:36So you support what Millie did?Yes totallyyes especially after January 6th becauseMillie took a note to defend the Constitutionhe didn't take a note of loyalty to Donaldfucking Trump and what Trump proved afterJanuary 6th was he was tryingto destroy our constitutional
20:55order. He's trying to shred the Constitution,prevent the constitutionalmechanisms from operating that would replacehim as president. Trump went to warwith the Constitution on January 6th.So what Millie did early was prescientand after January 6th was absolutelynecessary. Yes, I totally agree with that.
21:11Especially since today we found outAnthony Gonzalez, I never heard of him,but he's a Republican Congressman from Ohio.He was one of the 10 Republicanswho voted toPete's Trump for January 6th.He's not going to run in 2020,2022.
21:27Because he's not going to win.He's not going to win the primary. He knowsthat because this party is all in.They are a one-issue party voting.They're against it.They could give a shit about all their traditionalideas like balance thebudget. Everybody is much concerned
21:43about that as they arethe new season of Rupal's drag race.They don't care aboutanything except this one issue.Remember personal morality?Remember sexual morality?It was such a big issue with the Republicans.They spent 30 years in my life
21:57Republicans trying to slap the dick out of my mouth,and then they reveal themselves with Trumpto not give one flying fucking shitabout sexual morality or responsibility.And here's the issue.Basically, all of the Republicans are saying right nowthat what General Millie did was unconstitutional,if they'd spent one-tenthly amount of energy
22:14worrying about whether Trump was acting in a constitutional waythat'd have a bit more credibility right now,to go back to your point.Trump wouldn't have been president.in 2020.I mean, Millie was, like, I'm not an expert on any of this shit,but Millie seems to have been an impossible position.He took an oath to defend the Constitution,
22:31and the president was the enemy of the Constitution.He was trying to destroy the Constitution.What was he supposed to do?And the point is that, you know, you say you want a smoke potto not worry about the future.Well, we want generals who worry about the future.That is their job to try and save off risk.I said I don't eat it.
22:53I didn't say it.not going to smoke it. I'm going to smoke a lot of it.Okay, so some good news.We've made great strides with poverty in this country because of the pandemic,because so much government largest went to lift people up.And we're not in such bad shape anymore with a lot of people.However, homelessness rose 40% in this state in five years.We have half all the homeless in the country,
23:19but there's over 500,000 people who are homeless.asked Californians in exit pollsafter the recall this week,what's your number one issue? COVID 32%.That makes sense.Second, not the economy,not crime,homelessness. I understand.
23:38It's on people's doorsteps. In San Francisco,they have an app now calledSnapCrap where you canrequest sidewalk cleaningbecause there'svCs on, yeah.Those same Californians, though, who tellpollsters that this is their top issue, homelessness?
23:55or the second to the top issue.Ask those same Californiansif you can build multifamily housing in their neighborhood,build apartment buildings.Well, now it's the law.Single-room occupancy hotels in their neighborhoods.Like, the problem in California is a lack of housing supply.Right.
24:10And it's driving up prices because of scarcity of housing.And that's making people homeless.And the same people who put a sign in their front yardsaying, in this house, we believe that no one should be homeless,will murder their representatives, you know,their city council members,if they rezone their neighbor.to build more housing for these people who are home.
24:28I mean, there's a word for it. Nimbism.Not in my backyard.Right.And basically, you have to stop and ask yourself.I mean, when you were a kid, did you see homelessness around you?Did I see homelessness?Yeah.Go back.
24:40Okay, so why?That's a question we should ask, okay?There wasn't homelessness 50 years ago, 40 years ago.And it's very simple.It's not rocket science.Basically, Zillow, of all people, did a great survey,which showed that as soon as you have,communities that are spending more than a third of their way,
24:55on rental costs or home costs, you start to see homelessness rise.There's not enough affordable housing.There's not been enough ability to build affordable housing in California.And so the type of measures that Governor Newsman are introducing right now, frankly, are toolittle, too late.Well, yes, it's also, last week I was talking about why can't we pipe water from the eastto the west?There's too much in the water in the east.
25:21Yeah.And, you know, when I looked into this,It's not that we can't. It's completely feasible.We've heard for decades it's not only unfeasible because we don't want to do it because of graft.That's really the basic reason why.Because it would just cost so much in paying off all the different peopleand all the bullshit that involved in getting anything done.And it's the same thing with housing.
25:44This state put aside $12 billion to solve the housing problem.You couldn't build barracks and hire enough security guardsand doctors by it.the way, insidebarracks, they've done itbefore, so if you are on the street,come inside.It's not the Ritz,
26:05but you have a cotand three meals for $12 billion.Of course we could.It's just that we don't evenstart. Because...It's also, though, about this issueabout empathy and tribalismand whether America feels a sense
26:21of community today or not. BecauseNIMBY is basically driven by the sense ofPeople want to defend what they have and keep out everyone else.The problem with the homeless is that you can't, you trip over them in the street,even if you're an elite person in San Francisco or Los Angeles.And the question of guess is, how does America overcome this sense of tribalism, of nimbiasm,of just protecting their own little patch?There's going to have to be a cram down to build housing.
26:44Like some people are going to have to eat it.And elected officials are terrified of pissing off the nimbies,even though there's a YIMBY movement now, a yes in my backyard movement now.There's a YIMBY movement?that encourages housing, that welcomes housing,and it's increasingly organized.People are going to public hearings to testify nowand say, yes, please, rezone my neighborhood.
27:04Yes, please build this new.And now it's the law.That's what Newsom did today.So he's a yimby.Yes.Some of that credit also goes to Scott Weiner,Democrat of San Francisco, who pushed that law.Scott Weiner, Democrat from San Francisco,
27:20who pushed that law.So good for him.And a fact like me, so I wanted to drop his name.Which is Weiner.Which is Weiner.When are we going to get bumper stickers and praise of yimbies?Well, you know, you talk about this tribalism.I don't know if this is tribalism, but I was looking at the pictures from the Met Gala.
27:41You know, and we're going to get to AOC.She wore taxed the rich on her dress.But I noticed something that I've seen, having been out at a few parties,since the pandemic began.And that is the people going.to the party don't wear masks.But the servers wear masks.Yeah, look at this.
28:02I mean, there's something about thisthat's not liberal to me.I mean, these are the liberal swells of the world.But if we're all vaccinatedand do the germs know who the good people are?It just seemsa little wrong.What do we think about this, people?
28:23I'm not going to get any pushback for me.I do think that seems a little security theatery,performancey around the masks.But I want to, like, devil's advocate,like, if it reduces the chance by 25%that somebody may have been infected.So, but to, let's just make the help wear the mask.That's the liberal approach.
28:45That doesn't seem so.Not at all.And we have to realize, I mean, you know,I'm trained as an anthropologist before I became a journalist.And so I really care a lot about symbols.and the kind of signals they send.Unfortunately, America's so tribalthat wearing a mask has become
28:59almost a tribal symbol.And it's often an amulet.Absolutely.I see in this...But there is a body of research that showsthat they do work.Yes, of course.That's why surgeons wear them.
29:10Not in every situation.I see the San Francisco Marathonis going to make the runnerswear the mask.Now that is just powerful, stupid.But...on every level.That does seem tribal.
29:26That does seem like a kind of virtue signaling.But they are...Like, I wish we could have a critique of masksthat didn't, like, go to a placewhere then people don't want to wear maskson airplanes and, like, assault, flight attendants.Like, we have to emphasize,even as we critique that kind of formative...
29:42Well, then don't lie and do stupid stuff with them.That they work.But here's the thing about...Don't lie, and then people will have more trust.Okay, well, let's like to establish...Sorry.So I was going to say,One of the things I read about in my book is the fact that actually masks aren't just about medical science.
29:58They don't just stop germs.The act of putting on a mask each day is like a psychological prompt to remind you to change behavior.And it's also a cultural signal that you uphold the values of the community and have some sense of responsibility to everyone else.That is the perfect.And it's also asshole signaling, not just virtue signaling.When I get on an airplane to come here and there was some guy not wearing a mask, it's like, that's an asshole.And I'm not going to sit by that guy.I'm glad I'm mentioning by that guy.
30:30So I think you're right.I think having pictures of liberal celebritiesnot wearing masks next to helpers who are wearing masks,servers who are wearing masks,doesn't send the right signal about communal responsibility.Okay, so I also wanted to show the picture of AOC wearing her dressbecause this got all the attention this week.This is something that, you know,
30:47the Met Gala attracts lots of crazy outfits,but this is a new thing that people have been doing.They've been wearing, I guess, their message,their life philosophy,the rich. I just want to read theI had some sense here. Oh, New York City65,000the richest 65,000
31:05New Yorkers out of 8 millionpeople pay 51% of taxes.And what proportion is that?I'm just saying 65,000 out of 8 millionpay half. And their taxes are still too much. So it's not likewe don't tax the rich at all.We've been slashing taxes on the rich for 50years though. The rich are richer now than they have
31:25ever been. And the lie we've been told the wholetime we've been cutting taxes on the rich, was that if the rich just have the most money they canpossibly have, we will all benefit, we will all have jobs, and it's a lie and it hasn't come true.No, no. And we need to go back to the high tax ratio we used to have.That's fine. I'm all for ending income inequality, but let's not lie. The rich pay a lotof the taxes. Yes, because guess what? The rich are getting rich and richer, okay? And I knowwe're a bit like the breakfast club. He's a cool kid, I'm the geek or the nerd, okay, on the show.But I'll point out that
31:57Quantative Eating, Superloose monetary policyHas massively inflatedthe assets of anybody who's wealthyAnd the gap between rich and poorHas been rising and risingSo it's not surprising that the rich are payingA large chunk of the tax. And if you want to build thatpipeline to bring the water from the East Coast to the West Coast
32:13You can't tax the waitresses. You can't tax the help at the Met Galley.You're going to have to tax the rich fuckers with the McGalley. Most of them don't pay taxes already.They pay a higher proportion of income tax than Jeff Bezosdoes.that his company does.Yes, I understand that.Yes, there are lots of things we need to amendabout the capital system.
32:31We have crony capitalism in this country.No doubt about it.I'm just saying,you wear a tax the rich on your ass,and people are always sayingrich don't pay taxes. They pay some taxes.They pay a big part of the freight already.I'm not saying it shouldn't be more, perhaps,
32:47but let's not lie.Now, I want to show you some other dressesthat people were wearing at themet Gallup because now that this is the thingto wear your slogan on your ass,Oprah was there, and she wore a dress calledIgnore Previous Dress.She understands.
33:09Caitlin Jenner wore, I still likeattending balls.Scarlett Johanson had Tax the Rich, mainly Disney.Industry joke.Nikki Minaj had asked me about Ivermectin.Britney Spears was there.My dad picked out this dress.A Melania was there.
33:39Eat the poor. Okay.Lori Loughlin had to get into any college.Ask me how.And Ivanka was there.Someone, please talk to me.This is what I heard of dress.All right.So, let me read something else.
34:04AOC was involved.this week, which is her series of tweets about abortion, because that's the big story that'shappened in Texas, of course, but all the country is watching this, because this has alwaysbeen, I think, the great motivating issue in elections in the last many decades for women.I mean, we've often heard the phrase, you know, if men could get pregnant.Well, AOC says the gutting of Roe versus Wade imperils every menstruating person in the U.S.I would have thought maybe just saying women, but okay, I'm willing to always listen.She said, just one reason Roe isn't a woman's issue.
34:43People who aren't women can menstruate two.Duh.Trans, two-spirit, and nine binary people have always existed and will always exist.People can stay mad at that or grow up.I guess they menstruate or I don't know.Well, trans men have uteruses.Trans men menstruate.Trans men can't get pregnant.
35:10Wait, wait. All trans men have uteruses.Well, trans men are biologically femaleand they've transitioned to male.Okay.And not all trans people get bottom surgery.Right.And not all trans men get hysterectomy.And there are trans men who keep their uteruses
35:24and want to become parents and will become pregnant.So trans men do menstruate, can't get pregnant.If they're on testosterone, it suppresses menstruation,and they'll go off testosterone if they want to get pregnant.But that is something that can impact a trans man.Trans men can be raped and sometimes are raped by cis people who are angry at them for being transand can get pregnant and need an abortion,just like a woman rape victim could need an abortion.
35:45Okay, I'm just...Maybe what she should have said is basically abortion is an issuewho affects everyone who has sex.Let's make it inclusive and not travel.She did. Every person who engages in sex.But my question is political.It's about this has always been a woman's issueAnd when you say
36:01This is not a woman's issueI'm wondering if that's the bestIt's important that the two-spirit voteI'm sure is very importantI'm not mocking two-spiritJust the first time I heard itMaybe what I'm saying isYou know maybe if the tone of this wasn't like
36:17You morons who don't know that men can menstruateAnd what two-spirit isCatch upThat's why people hateI think what you're sayingis let's get beyond the tribalism.Because the problem of tribalismis that people get affiliated
36:32almost no matter whatto an opinion and a standpoint.I have to say,I completely agree with AOCthat trans, two-spirit, non-binary peoplehave always existed, everybody needs to get over it.40 years ago, gays and lesbians were changing.But many people were just learning about it.
36:47Right, right. And we shouldn't be so scolding in tone.But I disagree that abortion isn't a woman's issueor that we shouldn't describe it as one.The left talks about voter suppression lawsthat make it harder to vote as racist.They are racist in their intent.They target black voters particularly,and we talk about that as a racial issue.
37:05Even though some white people aren't going to be able to vote,don't have voter ID, might have a harder time voting.We don't say, don't talk about voter suppressionlike it's about race because some white people.And I think we can do the same,we can walk the same line on abortion.Yes, it is misogynistic, patriarchal.It targets women.
37:23It's about controlling women's bodies.it is going to impact some trans two-spirit and non-binary peoplewho might need access to abortion too.But the intent of the law targeting abortion,like the intent of the law is targeting voter suppression,that is racist, even though some white people are going to get fucked over too.The intent of anti-choice, anti-abortion law is what's going on Texas,is to target women.
37:45And it's going to impact some trans men too.Maybe, you know, help us along, explain,don't have this attitude, like the part of the countrythat isn't completely caught up with thisis just moronicand I can't even bear to deal with yougrow up.It's just, first of all, it's just
38:08bad politics.It is bad politics.These aren't...I don't know if she thinks she's onlyRepublicansare in that campwho don't know what Two Spirit is.But I think a lot of people
38:20are just learning about some of this stuff.And it's new. Let's not pretend all of this...But we're having this conversation now about itbecause of what she said, which was a littlescolding and probably unhelpful,but now we're having a reasonable conversation about it,and more people who are watching and listeningare finding out about what two spirit is and what two spirit means.
38:36What does it mean?Native Americans described peoplewho were gender non-conformingas having two spirits, a male spirit and a femalespirit in one body, one person.And it was sort of what Native Americans used to meanwhat we use trans to mean. That's why you see itlumped together with trans, two-spirit, non-binary.
38:54That's what two-spirit is. It's NativeAmerican. Okay. But I'm afairly well-informed person and I just learned it.But you just, yeah, but you were open to learning it.I mean, I am open to learning it.But you learned it because of what AOC stands.That's not the way to do it.I agree. I wish the left could take the example of Obama in 2007.
39:13What Obama's, Michelle and Barack both did, was they never got angry in public.And they had every right to be angry all the time.Absolutely.But it would have cost him both he needed from people who were looking for an excuse to vote against himbecause he wanted to get the power to best.the lives of people he wanted to change.And so he never got angry in public.And it was strategic and political.
39:33Should a black man be able to get angry in publicand get elected president?Absolutely.Can one?No.And Obama knew that.And so the lesson here for the left is,can we be a little bit more like Obama
39:45about our rhetoric, about our positioning,to bring along the people who may not know what two spirit means yet,but we still need their vote, so don't flip them offwhile you're telling them what two spirit means?And be less tribal.I mean, if you were to put the founding fathers in a time capsuleand bring them to the modern era,I think they're pretty shocked that the United States.
40:04They'd be cancelled.Straight away.For some very good reasons, actually, too, yeah.But exactly.But, I mean, you know, they didn't envisage in Americawhere everyone was as tribal as this.They tried to build in checks and balances to avoid that.And going back to that spirit of actually having empathy
40:20and trying to reach out to people who shock.Right.They have a different point of view from you,may have a slightly different.It's a big country with lots of people who are not like you.And just to insist that you come over and be exactly like I say you are immediately,that's not going to work.One-on-one anthropology is actually recognizing that just because it's your worldview,
40:43it doesn't mean that you can assume it should be everyone else's.It's about trying to listen to somebody else for a change.And actually recognizing the art of trying to listen to another point of view doesn't just give you empathy for others.it actually teaches you about yourself too.Because there's this great Chinese proverb,a fish can't see water unless you jump out of your fishbowland go and swim in different water for a bit.And by golly, after a COVID-19 lockdown,
41:08where we've all been locked down with our own tribe,our own little pod, people just like us.There is a desperate need right nowto jump out and go and swim in some other waterand try shock horror and talk to someonewho might actually be from a different party.Oh, I could not agree with it.And don't talk politics with them.
41:28Just talk.Yeah.Tall dresses.Let me ask you this about gay and trans.They're lumped together in LGBTQ.Q.Right.But it seems like they're actual opposites.
41:42Because gay was always about, we're born this way.Which I think is true.And trans is about what we say we're going to be.We're not born anyway.Where we choose.Isn't that kind of the opposite?No, in many ways, it's the trans and gay experience are very different.In some ways, they're similar.
42:04But there is a rift, isn't there?I was gay, but the default setting, the presumption was that I was straight.And I had to come out.I had to say, you know what, the assumptions that my family, my church,and everyone around me have made about me all my life, not true, I'm gay.For trans people who have an inner sense of themselves as not,that their sex doesn't align with their gender identity,It's a long process to get to the point
42:26where you come out about being trans.You know, the assumption is because you have a penis,you're a man, because you have a vagina, you're a woman.Not an unreasonable assumption accurate 99% of the time, roughly, right?But for some trans people, like,the sex doesn't align with the gender identity,like who they know themselves to be.And the coming out thing is very similar
42:44between the gay and trans experience.Trans people always were trans.They just hadn't come out yet.I always was gay, but there was a time in my lifewhere people thought I was straight.I let them think I was straight.But they transition kids now at a very young age, so that doesn't really happen because they're from a very young age they've been transged.There are gender dysphoric children who are allowed to socially transition.
43:04There should be and there are safeguards in place.And most kids are allowed to socially transition, you know, wear their hair longer, change their name, change their pronouns, explore their gender identity.The advice that clinicians give is to wait and see if it's consistent, persistent, and insistent around gender,but a lot of kids who experiment with gender and explorewind up identifying with their birth sex eventually.Some kids do transition and need to transitionand it saves their lives to let them transition.Right. And some regret it.
43:36That happens to, to be fair.There are people who've detransitioned.That is a thing that can happen.And we need to make the world safe for people who've transitionedand for people who've detransitionedand not get tribal about that either.Right. Couldn't agree more.So why do you think there was not
43:52a big baby boom from the pandemic.Usually when people get locked in,like a blackout, it's just one day.And they say, oh, nine months after the blackout,which I always think is like very insulting to your partner.Like, oh, I can't watch the voice tonight.I guess I'll fuck you.It's kind of insulting.
44:12But okay.But why, being locked in, we had an actual sex recession?What do you think about that?Well, for a lot of people,it was a frightening time.It was scary. It was uncertain.That scary? That you couldn't fuck in your own home?A lot of people were fucking.
44:30Justin Lee Miller out of the Kinsey Institute, Indiana University,actually a study how the pandemic was changing people's sex lives.And roughly like half of the people studied,and it was a large sample size, had a lot more sex,and half had a lot less, or none.So we cratered some people in about an equal number of people skyrocketed.But whether you want to fuck your partner is a very different questionabout whether you want to, like, make a baby.
44:51and bring a baby into a world where during the pandemic,it looked like Donald Trump might get another term,where the world is on fire, the environment is collapsing.I think nothing else.The COVID-19 experience is showing people just how uncertain the future is.But all these certainties that we thought we hadabout planning time, our time horizons,a lot of them imploded in the pandemic.
45:17Elections counting.That's kind of a big one.Yeah.You know, we may have seen the last one of that.Anyway, on that happy note,Thank you, panel. Very enlightening.I appreciate you being here.It's time for new rules.
45:37Your rule of Orthodox Jewsmust continue the ritual of caperot.A rot, whatever it is,practiced on Yom Kippur, where they swing a chickenover their heads to transfer their sinsbefore slaughtering it.I must continue to mock it.I'm not saying that chickens don't have
45:54healing powers, they do.But you don't swing them over your head.You put them in soup.New rule, the Florida man,when a single day got married, crashed his car,fled the scene, went to jail,responded to a request to undergo a drug testby bending over and sticking his fingers up his ass
46:16while shouting all hail Donald Trump.Must admit, what he did was really stupid.I mean, come on, man.Who gets married anymore?New old Ricky Martinez, the porn star,known for his ability to blow himself.Must be fitted with one of those dog cones.because Lord knows
46:48these days we don't need another reasonto never leave the house.New rule, let's call school board meetingswhat they really are,open mic night for the mentally deranged.And then let's replace the school boardwith a panel of celebrity judgesand make a new show called America's Got Issues.
47:18New Rule, Kim Jong-un must share his dietsecrets with America.Look at him now. He went from DMZto GQ.And I think I know how. He ditched his posse.Yeah, it turns out allthose guys with the notepads were taking his lunch order.And finally, new rule, no cash prizes for snitching.
47:43As I'm sure you've heard, Texas just passed America's harshest abortion law, which includesthe idea that anyone even helping a woman get an abortion, like the Uber driver, who takesyou to the clinic, can be sued by random citizen snitches for up to $10,000.Yes, finally a way to tap into that vast reserve of Uber driver wealth.Jesus, when did West Texas become East Germany?Even if you hate sluts and love money,you have to admit bounty hunting, people who help pregnant women,is a little un-American.
48:18Also, you're working too hard, Texas.This is 2021.You don't have to pay people to snitch.America's snitch nation now.They'll happily do it for free.It's okay.It's okay.With this group.
48:45Being a snitch, now it's not a bad thing.Oh, it used to be.Used to be one of those first things we taught children.Nobody likes a tattletale.But now, virtually any public accomplishmentcomes with the obligatory follow-up snitch storya few days later.Like what happened with that sad schmuck
49:04who was supposed to host Jeopardy.But fortunately, the honor of game showswas preserved when squealed team.Team 6, went through his old podcast and found out he once used the term booth slut.Whatever the fuck that means.I'm sorry, Mike, but we the perfect people who have never made a mistake.We just can't let society be sullied by horrible people like you.Bye-bye.
49:38Fans of cable news will recognize the rising journalist Alexei McCamond, who was appointed editorof Teen Vogue, but then had to resign before her first day.when some of her high school tweetssuddenly became too much to bear.Tweets like, now Googlinghow to not wake up with swollen Asian eyes.And, ah, you're so gay.And her resignation was endorsed
50:06by the hierarchy of the magazine,including the senior social media managerChristine Davitt. Good for you, Christine.You helped catch the Zodiac Killer.Oh, oh, oh, no.You just ruined someone's career for no reason.Same diff.Funny ends of the story.
50:25after Alexei McCamond resigned for her innocuous tweets.Someone went through Christine Davitt's old high school tweetsand, oops.Seems she tweeted the N-word twice to a white friend in 2009.Bye-bye.You know, this is why I'm a little hopefulthat this purity purge may endbecause it's starting to eat its own.
50:55ESPN reporter Rachel Nichols was a feminist success story,but when she complained in a private telephone question,about ESPN's crappy long-time record on diversityand expressed her view that she felt like she was being sacrificed by the networkso they could make up for that crappy long-time record on diversity.The call was leaked and she was toast.Now, in addition to the fact that a person shouldn't have to love getting fired,even if it does achieve more equity,
51:27this was a private call.Does private mean anything anymore?Apparently not.Even sadder, this love of snitchingseems to be one of the few areas that is nowtruly bipartisan.Snitch Nation isn't about what side you're on.It's about this mindset where everyone is an amateur
51:44secret policeman and tattling is a virtue.The woke side of the internet thinks going throughsomeone's old MySpace account makes them part of the resistance.It doesn't. It makes you a punk.And Republicans, lately,besides sponsoring that new reality show,Texas zygote hunters,have been encouraging college
52:11students to whip out their phones,to record and report professorswho espouse leftist ideas.As always,these snowflakes fall just as hardon the right as they do on the left.Colleges pride themselveson being safe spaces,
52:33not for professors.At least not any who mightwant to stretch young minds to thinkdifferently and try on new ideas.Yeah, try that at your peril.Same with comedy clubs.Ever since the iPhone,comics have been complaining about snitches in the audience
52:48who'll rat them out for crossing the line,crossing the line, which is practically the job descriptionof a comedian.Comics are joking constantly.Even some people who aren't comics do that.And if you're lucky enough in life to be around people like that,I'm sure you know.They can't all be gems.
53:24Sometimes you get the twisties.And the joke doesn't.isn't land just right.Exposing that doesn't make you noble.You're not David Kaczynski,the brother of the Unabomberwho turned in his own brother,lest any more mail bombs go off?
53:39That was noble.You know, because it was about bombsand not bombing.There's a real differencebetween the Unabomberand the editor of Teen Vogue.For one thing, the Unabomber made some good points.Or think of Edward Snowden,
54:00enduring exile in Russiaso he could exposeunlawful government snooping.Noble. Colonel AlexanderVindman exposing the Ukrainefiasco. Noble.That's not youtaking down the host of the ice capades.
54:19You're a loser with Wi-Fiand all the time in the world to listento long-forgotten podcasts.You're not a journalist. You're just acreepy little rat. Go to Texasand catch a runaway embryo.Oh, what? You dug up a letter whereJFK said, Indian Giver?
54:42Great, now we can tear down the Kennedy Center.You know what? I don't want to live in Snitchlandia, where you can't trust your neighbors and you're always looking over your shoulder, a land of Cairns and Gladys Cravitz's ruled by citizen informants where Republicans sue you for your sex life and Democrats get you fired for a Halloween costume.And then we all go home and applaud ourselves for our courage.All right. Thank you very much. That's O'Shael. I'll be at the lyric theater in Baltimore, October 23rd, at the Wind Creek events.Alabama, Pennsylvania, October 24th at the Fox in Atlanta.Killer Mike, I'm coming, November 6th.I want to thank my guest, Gillian Zead, Jan Savage, and Ann Applebaum.Thank you, folks.
55:32Catch all new episodes of Real Time with Bill Maher every Friday night at 10.Or watch them anytime on HBO on demand.For more information, log on to HBO.com.
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