Real Time with Bill Maher - Ep. #579: Steven Van Zandt, Katherine Mangu-Ward, Matt Taibbi

Episode Date: October 2, 2021

Bill’s guests are Steven Van Zandt, Katherine Mangu-Ward, and Matt Taibbi. (Originally aired 10/1/21) See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to an HBO podcast from the HBO late-night series, Real Time with Bill Maugh. I know. I do appreciate it. Thank you. I know. Thank you.

It's, uh, what a crowd. Thank you. I know. People are, they're crazy. It's the fiscal New Year. So people go nuts. Well, you know what? That's the big story.

I hate to have to bore you with all this shit. But it's all, But that's all the America's talking about. The temporary funding bill got passed. We are not going to have a government shutdown, so that's good. I mean, why are we... You're cheering?

Because we made it through to December 3rd. That's what they did. They want... The Democrats wanted to, you know, raise the debt ceiling, but no, just till December 3rd. That's all the Republican... This is the equivalent of putting duct tape on your shower nozzle

until you actually call the plumber, you know? this stupid this stupid stupid game of chicken that they always play whenever a Democrat is the president and the Republicans can make them look like an asshole and of course at the last minute

the Democrats had to back down Nancy Pelosi blinked which is itself news we joke we joke here but oh did you see there's a

a new book out about Trump. I love this. Everybody who worked for Trump for years, completely loyal. Now they hate his guts and they write a book. This is what I was really thinking. So, Stephanie Grisham, I don't even remember this one. One of

Trump's many press secretaries wrote a book and she talked about all the inside dirt. Apparently Melania was very angry about Trump cheating on her. At one point, she tearfully said, I wish She never ordered me.

Sad, isn't it, people? Also, I love this. By the way, I know Biden isn't perfect. But just remember, it was only a year ago that shit like this was happening. Get this. At one point, Trump called Stephanie Grisham from Air Force One about his penis.

That's... Yeah. That's not happening under the current administration. I mean, just take our... Yes, because, remember, Stormy Dan? said it was shaped like a toadstool. So trying to have to call her from Air Force. Get it out there. My dick is not shaped like a toadstool.

You see why he had so many press secretaries? I mean, try working that into a press release about the consumer price index. There's a job. The global supply chain is causing a lot of problems now. Have you been trouble getting shit? A lot of people are. There's a short supply now of canned vegetables, chicken, bottled water. But the bright side, we're fully stocked with Halloween shit.

This country, I love this country, China. I mean, no chicken, but if you want a plastic rat that sings the monster mash, we've got you covered. And in celebrity news, Britney Spears' father has been removed from the conservatorship, so. Yeah people are very excited Thank God If this went on much longer Ken Burns would make a documentary about it

So can we just stop talking about No good for Brittany A Los Angeles judge This happened A law cellist judge officially released Britney Put her father in the corner And now the Democrats want to put that judge on Kirsten Cinema

Uh Wow But I love also Twitter Completely congratulating themselves I'm freeing Brittany. Oh, for fuck sake. She's a pop star who couldn't use her credit card.

She's not Nelson Mandela, okay? We did it. We freed Britney. I'm glad she's freed. And I don't even disagree. She should be free. And Brittany was so excited when she heard the news. She shaved her head and attacked a car with an umbrella.

Is that a bad sign? We can't. We joke here. But I love this last story I'm going to tell you. This is so California. Where are the Californians when you need them? This is our latest wildfire was started by a shaman. Of course it was.

A shaman who was in the woods boiling bear urine, not naked urine, urine from a bear. That's why I always drink my bear urine cold. You know, I just want to know how she got the bear to pee in a cup. That's all I want to. All right, we got a great show. Matt Taibi and Catherine Mangoo. here. But first up, he is the ultimate

rock and roll rebel. Also somehow found time to become a really good actor. His new book is called Unrequited Infatuations A Memoir. My good friend, Stevie Van Zant is out of here. I'll take it. Okay.

Okay. Hi, crazy. Finally, I finally get you in my torture chamber. Holy, 30 years in the making. I know, I know. So I'm going to make the most of it. First of all, I just got to tell you the book, I gobbled it up, it's fantastic. The title, first of all, unrequited infatuations, awesome title. I bet you there are so many authors out there saying, I wish I thought of that for a title. It says so many things.

The other title I want to get to, the rock and roll rubble, I said it there. You named your box set after that. It was years in the making that title, right? And I feel like even among rockers who are rebels, you were a rebel among rebels. You think that's true? Well, at the time, yeah. You know, politics wasn't cool, you know, in our business. I mean, it's one of those show business things, right? Stay away from politics and religion, which, you know, you followed. It's been my mentor, my whole career.

So I just kind of jumped in and made that my identity. You know, I was looking for, you know, growing up in the 60s, everybody had a very, very distinct identity. And when I left the East Street ban, I was like, well, how do I justify my existence? And I thought, you know, I'll be the political guy, you know, talking about that stuff. See, I know you say you left because, you know, you wanted more in the decision-making process. But actually, you know, when I look at what you're going to. you went from there, I don't know how you could have coexisted,

because you just wanted to be so much more political. And, I mean, a theme throughout the book in your life is you losing money. Well, it's not something. Or forgoing money that could have been, money that was on the table that you did not rake in because you chose this other path, because you are the rock and roll rebel. I mean, I don't know how you... You could not have...

Can I just go through... I mean, the name of your albums from the 80s, they were all... Revolution. Freedom, no compromise, right? I mean, Voice of America. Do we have those pictures from those albums? Because I just got to say,

what was the look you're going for there, Stevie? Is it... I really think of it... What if it was in the closet? A lot of mascara. Okay. It's a look. But the point is, you wanted to be this guy who did something.

I've always said this about music. I think a lot of musicians, they big themselves up about they can change the world. But what you did in South Africa really did kind of change what was going on. There were a lot of people involved. You know, not just us, the four musket, tears, me Danny Schechter, Arthur Baker, and Hart Perry. But it was really, you know, from the United Nations to all of the unions in Europe. It was a big movement.

We kind of lit that, but we did light that spark. You know, we did light the fuse. But wasn't the year I did it go after Sun City? Yeah. I mean, if people don't remember, I vaguely remember this, that Sun City, it was kind of like the Las Vegas of South Africa, right? It was this, and I remember everybody played it. Frank Sinatra opened it.

But lots of people who are known as big liberals. in the music industry. Probably don't want to be reminded. And there was this pressure that you put on. It was like, why are you going there to South Africa? This is an apartheid regime. Yeah, and we made a decision, you know, let's assume that they were manipulated, which they were.

You know, let's not have an infighting amongst the music people. Let's keep our eye on the ball because we had a bigger goal in mind, which was to raise enough consciousness. to get the sanctions bill passed, which we knew when it came up, Ronald Reagan was going to veto it, because he was part of that unholy Trinity, supporting apartheid, him, Thatcher and Cole,

you know, UK and Germany, you know. And Reagan was God in those days, man, he was this, you know, the grandfatherly cowboy, you know, happy cowboy. And all these crimes are going on, you know, behind the scenes. And we needed to raise that consciousness enough that when the sanctions bill came up, which was really the home run. You know, sports boycott first, which was in place.

Cultural boycott, which is what we did, and then the economic sanctions. And once they came up, he did veto it, and we overrode that veto because we had raised a consciousness so much. You know, and Republicans voted for it, okay? Richard Lugar and Republicans voted for the sanctions bill. Can you imagine Republicans voting so black people could vote? Different era.

Very different. Yeah. Yeah. But, and you did all that, and yet you still didn't starve. You still have some money. No, no. The money thing. It's not the money thing so much.

It's, you know, I mean, I had wonderful successes, and I don't want to ever sound ungrateful about East Street band and Sopranos and Lilliehammer and the Sun City Project, you know. But, you know, my own personal, my most personal stuff, you know, my personal records that you just put the screen up there, have not found an audience, you know. And the point is, you know, you're going to go through life. You're going to have some frustration,

and you're going to have some disappointment. And everybody is, and that's where the universal themes start to happen, you know. But it's not a matter of are you going to be disappointed. It's what do you do with it? What do you do after that, you know? Do you give up and throw in a towel, or do you kind of find a way to move forward? And I hope the book is useful that way, you know?

I think it will be. I think it's really interesting the way you draw this parallel between, well, I think the word is consigliary. Is I'm saying that right? I know it's in the godfather. It could be consulieri. Consolieri.

Okay. So you were kind of like that in the East Street band. And then that's the part you really played on the Sopranos. Yeah, that was funny. And it was... So when you played the part on the Sopranos, but you had never acted. I mean, David Chase,

he cast you based on charisma, likeability, authenticity, not an acting ability, which you didn't have at the time. There was none. I turned them down when you asked me. Right, but it worked. Because you didn't have to stretch too far in your mind

for that conciliary role, right? Well, it developed into that. I mean, it didn't start off that way. You know, it started off as just running the strip club for the family. And we would meet in the back room, would be our office. But it developed, over the first season, it developed into that underboss, Consolieti role.

Yeah. So I know you probably would agree with the McCartney thing he used to say, but I'd rather have a band than a Rolls-Royce, right? I'm guessing you would agree with that statement. You love having a band. You love being in a band. Yeah, that's my inclination. You know, I'm a band guy, an ensemble guy.

And do you think there may be too many bands now? I did a thing here earlier in this year about the number of, I think it was 1.6 million artists that from the beginning of January, January 2019 to the middle of 2020. That's in a year and a half. A million.6 artists were on Spotify. Wow. Can there be that many good bands? Wow. And how do we weed out the shit?

Well, because it's always... I solved this problem already. I solved the problem. We always do with tune into the underground garage channel. Your channel 21. But you want to break new bands, don't you? We have introduced over 1,000 new bands in 20 years. Are there even a thousand new good ones?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Really? Oh, yeah. I don't have that much time. I mean, over 20 years is that a thousand. It took 20 years. But you need some curation these days. I mean, you really do. I mean, it's more music than ever,

even though the rock business is kind of over, you know, as far as the industry's concerned. We're still the biggest thing live, thankfully. Right. But that's mostly an oldest thing. Mostly, yes. Because they have the money. Yes.

The older people have money. But they bring the generations with them, you know. They pay for them. Like they do everything. else. True. That is true. Okay, so are you 70? You don't

even look at. And you certainly don't dress it. So, can you do these four-hour shows? I mean, sometimes the East Street Bend does a four-hour Well, you'd have to. No, but it shouldn't be four. I mean, we only did four a couple times, and it was too much, you know.

I mean, at the end of those shows, Bruce came over to me. He's like, I can't bend the strings anymore. You know. Right. I might go talk to the boss. What are he talking to me for? You know, he's complaining to me. But, no, but three hours, you're going to do three.

You know, you might get to three and a half. That's about the limit. That's all you want to do. All right. People have to get home for the babysitter. You know. Right. Well, the Rolling Stones are still doing it.

They're older than you. That's it. And may they go forever because we'll still be the new guys on the block. All right. Stevie Van Zenzeth, everybody. All right, nice way. Thank you, we'll wait to see you. All right.

The American Treasure. Let's meet our father. Thank you. Hey, hello there. All right, she is editor-in-chief of Reason Magazine and co-host of the Reason Roundtable podcast, Catherine Mangoo Ward. Nice to meet you.

And he is the editor of TK News on Substack and a co-host of the podcast. Useful Eddie, it's Matt Taibi. Here with us. Okay, so, again, I know this budget shit is boring. boring and wonky. But it's what is going on in this country. We need to

talk about it. Let's spice it up by thinking about it this way. You know, when they do surveys of married couples or even couples in relationships, and they always find out that the number one thing that people fight about, no close second, is money. People fight about money.

And that's what the Democrats are doing. Mommy and Daddy are fighting about money. They have two bills. They've passed neither one. One, they could pass. right now, that's a $1.2 trillion. Let's say $1 trillion. I mean, what's

two... When you pass the team thing, one, and then, that's just for infrastructure. That's actually building roads and bridges and stuff like that. A couple of years ago, I think we would have been very happy to just have that. Then they had this

other $3.5 trillion bill. That's for lots of other stuff like child care, community expansion, paid family and medically. A lot of... Well, free stuff,

always popular. So, the two wings of the party, there's the AOC, Bernie wing. They want both bills, and they're going to hold the one hostage so they get them both. The other, more moderate side, they're very mad at

Kirsten, Kirsten and Kristen have to ficken get their names aligned. I can't ever get... Kirsten, right? Kirsten, Sinema, and Joe Manchin, they're the two Democrats who are holding up, and they're mad at them because they're not progressive enough, forgetting that they only got elected

because they're not progressive, because they're moderates. Here's my question. Does spending more money make you a better person, or a bigger moderate? And maybe these two Cinema and Manchin, do they might have their thumb more on the pulse

of the average Democrat in the country? I think it is so telling that these main conversation about this is just people shouting those two trillion dollar numbers at each other over and over. We just have this idea that somehow... I don't think anybody knows what's in the bills. Nobody knows what's in the bills. And I think, you know, there was this brief moment last week. I find that to be a problem. A huge problem. There's a brief moment last week. I don't know if you all caught it,

where actually the $3.5 trillion bill was a $0 bill. There was this big fight because it was like, no, it's paid for. So it's kind of like the money comes from nowhere. It's fine. You know, Obamacare was paid for. I feel like that was such a different error when that was a thing to at least try to pay for your bill. There are pay-for's in both of these bills. But the fact that, you know, the fact that obviously there's going to be a huge amount of accounting trickery in there, that's always going to happen. And, you know, I think you are right that the American public is not, it's not clear that what they voted for when they voted for Joe Biden, who was perceived as a moderate, was $3.5 trillion of massive new social progress. It just isn't that may not be what people actually want and I think it's reasonable enough for our representatives to say like hey hold on can we talk about this a little more

I think it's interesting within the media just from that standpoint how quickly we've gone from believing that most media people believe the deficit spending was a good thing and that we needed more of that right But now it's more like monetary theory that there's a limitless amount of money that we can spend and we should never have to worry about accounting and again or paying for things again. And I don't know where I fall on that, but I think it's just interesting that almost everybody who covers the stuff believes that latter thing. Well, and there's this weird pretense that we always

believed it. I mean, this is a very new idea to say, like, actually, you can definitely spend billions of dollars, and it means nothing for what your children will have to pay back, what resources we will have if there's another crisis in the future, and I just don't find that. I feel like COVID changed that. You remember that great book?

shock doctrine by Naomi Climbs should, you know, and it's sort of like the theory, never let a crisis go to waste. We saw how the Republicans did it at 9-11 happen. It was like, oh, well, we've always wanted to invade Iraq again. You wouldn't miss me. And I feel like this is kind of what the other side did with COVID. I mean, they always wanted to, like, send more checks

to people who have kids. Well, part of this bill is anybody who's making $400,000 gets $2,000 a kid. So, baby bonus. And there's a lot of stuff in this bill that basically is going to go to people who are better off. I mean, I think it's a reasonable enough question to say there are people suffering in this country. They need help. And maybe the federal government occasionally should help with that.

But that is not what these $3.5 trillion are. It is everything every Democrat ever wanted to do. And isn't having kids just a choice? Am I, isn't it like, aren't we picking winners and losers there? Wow. You're now alone because the Republicans and the Democrats both want to subsidize the spawning. It's also interesting. Right. It's supposed to be a bill that's a green bill. Kids aren't green. Having more people isn't green. You have not seen my children after they have peas.

Just a lot of the same people who are saying that we need the $3.5 trillion bill are the same people who are arguing against it when, Bernie Sanders was running against Joe Biden just a year ago. I think that's interesting, too. A lot of pundits have completely changed reminds about this and acted like nothing happened. Right. And Republicans destroyed their credibility as responsible fiscal stewards. Like, I do think it's important to keep that in mind.

Oh, it is. They, you know, Donald Trump got up there and said, I need a couple trillion dollars. And they were like, here you go, buddy. Like, whatever you want. All the cash. They destroyed that way before that. Well.

They've been doing that forever. They were already in a weak place, and they blew it. They'd been doing that forever. The Democrats would come in and clean up their mess, and somehow they would still have the reputation as the people who look after your money. I never understood how that happened. Well, because they keep saying it during elections,

and people like it, because Americans actually do like the idea that their government might be kind of fiscally responsible, and Republicans got away with the rhetoric for a lot longer than the reality supported it. So one of the things, two free... years of community college. I don't know. I thought of that when I read your article this week about does America hate the poorly educated.

I mean, I was saying a few weeks ago, maybe months ago, who knows, I smoked pot. Whenever it was, but I'm not so sure that the idea that the more education we get, the better we are, first of all, I don't know what they're teaching at the colleges. I don't think they're teaching the subjects that are

substantive anymore. Maybe some of them are. but also just this idea that more sitting in classrooms makes you more able to navigate the world and you came up, you quoted a guy, you came up with this, I love this phrase, credentialism. Right, yeah. The last prejudice we have, credentialism,

looking down on people who don't have any sort of degree. I mean, I was saying, instead of like getting everybody with a degree, why don't we just be honest that most people don't need a degree and it's a bullshit thing to begin there. Yeah. I've covered a lot of stories about student loans and I think people have to face to the idea

that the higher education in America is kind of a scam. It is. Yeah. You need to go to college to get a good professional job but there's no guarantee you're going to get one if you go to college. In fact, the likelihood is very poor that you're going to get a good job right out of college for most people.

But you have to get the equivalent of a gigantic mortgage to go to one of these schools. And a lot of people who get out of college now, they leave and they think to themselves, I could have just waited tables from the beginning and not had this massive debt when I left. And people are catching on to that. And that's a problem. At Reason Magazine, we make it a point to hire people who do not have college degrees. Now, to be fair, that's usually because they couldn't actually, like, get it together to finish college, rather than like a deep principal position.

But it's for this very reason. There's nothing about spending four years on an ivy-covered campus or in a strip mall, as in the case of many colleges in America, that makes you better qualified to do a lot of jobs. And, you know, we have, I think, the American public currently holds something like

$1.6 trillion. But again, you know, once we're in the... We'll just round it up or down. Money doesn't mean anything anymore. They hold $1.6 trillion in federal. student debt. And that money maybe doesn't mean anything to the federal government, but it means a lot to those individual people. They have all been sold this bill of goods where they've taken on debt. It's shaping the decisions they make in their lives. And, you know, frankly, I would like

to see us improve our K-12 system so that people don't feel like they need a college degree. We've massively, massively increased spending on K-12. to no avail. I feel like they don't know anything. I feel like they never read a book. Somebody sent me a video of a TikTok mashup. This guy just asks, it's like the old Jay Leno j-walking

bit where you just ask people questions. First question, who was the first American to walk on the sun? And they go, Lance Armstrong? Another question was Venice, Italy is in what country.

Answer, Paris. I mean, there are moronic on a level that they weren't even ten years ago. So why would I want to put more money into that? I don't, one of them who prefaces her answer with I'm a teacher, I should know this.

And now we're finding out there's somebody identified this week I saw in the news what they're calling a mating crisis because women overwhelmingly are kicking men's asses as far as getting to I hate to say this. I think men might be on to something here.

It pains me, but significantly fewer men are looking at the proposition that college offers and saying they want to take it, you know, maybe the ladies should listen to the men. I hate it. I hate to say that. Well, but the problem is that women who have a degree don't want to go out with men who don't. So you wind up with all these lonely, angry men.

Really funny. who are going to burn down the country. Other than that, it's hysterical. But really, I mean, wherever you have lonely, angry men... It's never a good thing. It's never a good thing. The priesthood. The Taliban.

You know, I could go on. I mean, lonely angry men. And, of course, who is the perfect champion of the moronic, Donald Trump? That, you know, especially guys, you know. I mean, just, I mean, his vocation. all six words of it is perfect for them. Oh, he's, see? Look, I covered in Trump's campaign,

and he knew exactly who he was talking to, that whole thing about how I love the poorly educated. Right. He understood where all the frustration was out there, and education is the political divide in this country now. It's the most predictive thing, if you want to determine who's going to vote for Democrats and who's going to vote for Republicans,

it's college graduates versus people who, don't have college degrees. And that's changed dramatically just since Clinton's time. Like if you look at the top 30 districts in 1992, half of them voted Republican and half of them voted Democrat. In the last election, all but three of them voted Democrat. So it's become a class educational thing. And as you point out at the end of the article,

accompanied by real hate, like I want you to die kind of hate, which never was the case. I mean, it used to, I mean, as far, Long ago as recently as like the 20s or 30s, I think only like one out of 20 Americans went to college. They used to say a college man, you know, almost like you're a doctor. But the people who didn't hate those people. Right. Now they hate.

And I see in the paper today, over half of Trump people want a civil war. 41% of Biden voters want a civil war Where do they think they're going? What side are we on? I mean, I'm in California. He got 4.5 million votes, I think, in this state. We can't have a civil war.

This is the problem of polarization, right? And I think it causes all kinds of downstream issues, I guess maybe including eventually civil war. I hope not. But people don't know. people who disagree with them politically anymore. And they did used to quite recently. Exactly.

And I think, you know, in some ways, that's, you know, that's a potential solution to some of the angst around politics right now is, like, if everybody could just go make one friend who voted differently than they did? Right. And it's, I get it. Like, if you're a Republican and you think, like, a Democrat is too far and vice versa, like, consider libertarians.

Because there's, like, something to hate and something to love for both sides. about us, and we're super fun at parties. So just try it. All right. So, we thought this would be a good week with the Stephanie Grisham book coming out to do one of our favorite departments

on this show. I don't know it for a fact. I just know it's true. Why not? I don't know it for a fact. I just know it for it. I don't know for a fact that the chef who invented blackened chicken just burnt the chicken. I just know it's true.

I don't know for a fact that in the not too distant future, every guy who can't get it up will blame it on long COVID, I just know it's true. I don't know for a fact that Hunter Biden has done the Pulp Fiction thing with the syringe in the chest. I just know it's true.

I don't know for a fact that the hand sanitizer at supercuts is just gel. I just know it's true. I don't know for a fact that you could show a doorman in L.A. a vaccination card that was really a coupon from bed, bath, and beyond. And he'd still let you in.

I know what's true. I don't know for a fact that Kirsten Cinema isn't by. She's just indecisive. I just know it's true. I don't know for a fact that you could pay for a Lamborghini just by renting it to guys on Tinder to pose in front of. I just know it's true. I don't know for a fact that if a giant sinkhole

leading to a prehistoric land suddenly appeared on LaBreya, everyone in L.A. would just go, shit, I have to take Fairfax. I don't know for a fact that if I started the bang your face with a pipe challenge on TikTok, kids would do it. I just know it's true. And I don't know for a fact

that now that Robin has come out as bisexual, he lists his pronouns as Biff, pow, and bam. I just know it's true. Okay, so I thought this would be a good week to do this. Because when I read you, Matt Taibi, as I always do,

about Russia, that seems to be what you're saying, the Russia-Trump connection. I don't know. Right? You get what I'm saying? That's your thesis, really, is that the media was like, I don't know for a fact. I just know it's true. And I just have to pick this fight with you

because I understand, you're right. The media does leap on things too soon. They don't care. They want to be first, more importantly than being accurate. But, you know, it sounds like you think that when Trump says it was a hoax, he's right. And I don't think that

the case. I mean, you said that you compared it to WMDs. You said, the Russia connection with Trump is this generation's WMDs. I don't think that's an accurate analogy because there were WMD, there were no WMDs, but there was collusion with Russia.

Really? Like, where? I mean... Where? The Senate Intelligence Committee, this is run by Republicans who are, if anything, slavish to Trump. Their report said Trump campaigns, interact with Russian intelligence services during the 2016 presidential election

posed a grave counterintelligence threat. Why would Republicans say that about Donald Trump? Okay. First of all, Mueller didn't say that. Second of all, they're talking about one person. Mueller didn't not say that. Remember, he was like, I'm not going to not, not say. He pussyed out, but he didn't exonerate him at all.

This story is about the alleged delivery of public polling days. to a guy named Constantine Kilimnik who was for the International Republican Institute and was frequent visitor... Well, he's also been described as a GRU agent. We don't really know. He's certainly something close to the people in Russia.

You will admit that they had a building of people in St. Petersburg who were just assigned to rat fuck the election through Facebook, right? Well, yeah. theoretically, they talked about $100,000 that was spent by that company.

Right. Facebook's But they never established a connection between that company and the government. They were just doing it voluntarily. $100,000 worth of ads? That's nothing compared to what, if they really wanted to affect the election, why not just give Trump $50 million? 9-11 didn't cost much either. Okay.

You know? It's not about how much you spend. I think the more significant thing is that there were such a massive quantity of fake stories that did go through from the steel dossier to the 80s. But the Steele dossier got right two very important things. They got right. Am I wrong about this? Oh, I thought you looked at me like...

That's my default facial expression is epicism. More so here today. They got right that, you know, that Russia was waging a broad campaign to elect Trump, and that was before that was established. And the other thing that they got like was right was the WikiLeaks leak. I mean, that the Democrats... This was all being written during the time. time when all of this was already coming out.

And then the FBI actually even concluded that they couldn't find any original reporting in the steel dossier that actually panned out. The stuff that was actually original in the steel dossier, everything from the P-TAPE to the well-developed conspiracy of five years,

the plan between the FSB and Trump, none of that panned out. Well, the P-Tape, I agree, was a tragedy for committee. But that was a massive story for years. We weren't talking. Well, it was a massive story because people make, obviously people would rather talk about P than the

budget. On most shows. Not on this show. We talk about both. But that was confirmed by Mueller. That the hacks, I mean, Roger Stone right, told WikiLeaks to release

the Democratic emails, the Podesta emails, right after the Hollywood Access tape came out. And they did it within an hour. Within a day after Trump said publicly, Russia, if you're listening, I hope you can hack those emails.

They started to do it. That's not collusion? No, look, the Roger Stone indictment actually proves that the collusion theory was wrong. Even at that very late date, they were trying to reach out to WikiLeaks. If there was actually a conspiracy between WikiLeaks, Russia, and Trump,

they wouldn't have had Roger Stone reaching out and being told to fuck off, by the way, by the way, by WikiLeaks. But it's not a coincidence that those emails were released right after. Yeah, but that's a completely different thing from talking about an espionage conspiracy, where, you know, Trump and the Russians got together to plan to fix an election. I mean, they're allowed to talk to WikiLeaks if they think they have a big story that's going to hurt Hillary Clinton. You want to jump in on this as a ref? I don't know.

I would not love to, frankly, but I will. I kind of feel like I'm at a table here. with two dudes who each have their own bulletin board covered with like yarn and news clippings. And you're like, you're both, but you're both right. Like there really is, this lives in this space between incompetence and conspiracy.

Trump did a terrible job of colluding with Russia if he was trying to. Yes, right. And maybe he was trying to, but, you know, on some level, I think, you know, the real mistake was, and I think this is Matt's point, ultimately, The focus, the media focus on this story missed the mark

because Trump was doing a bunch of very bad stuff in public that can and should have convinced people that he wasn't going to be fit to serve as the president for a second term, for a first term. And, you know, it turned out that focusing on the Russia Gate stuff may be distracted from, I don't know, like talking about his terrible immigration policy or something like that, or the budget.

I feel we did. you love. I feel like we did both. We had, you know, we didn't need the key tape, we had the access to Hollywood. To pretend that that all didn't happen, that they weren't in bed with the Russians. I mean, and then they did it again, because they got away with it. Rui Giuliani went to

Ukraine and met with a guy who he said, at best, this is like 50-50 a Russian agent. That was his defense. Should we even be meeting with people who are at best 50-50 a Russian agent? That's how far the goalposts had moved. Like, that's not a

thing anymore. Yeah, but Bill, the story for three years was Trump colluded with the Russian Secret Services to fix an election. It was an espionage conspiracy story that we took seriously. We were told every single day on... Because it is serious. They didn't have to be in the same room.

He didn't... See, the thing is with Trump is he committed his crime so publicly that people just thought it must not be a crime because how else could you get away with that? It's like the guy who cheats on his wife right at the prime table in the most popular restaurant.

Honey. If I was fucking her, would I be right here at this... This is... It's... Let's move on. So, big news today. Merck has a new COVID pill.

What is funny about that? That's... I want to ask you if this... You think this is a game changer, but we've never had this so far. Merck has developed a pill that reduces the risk of hospitalization or death by around 50% for patients with, they say, mild or moderate cases of COVID,

which I saw in the news today means take it early. When you first get to feel bad, take this pill. Is this going to change everything? I sure hope so. It would be incredible if this worked out. Just like the vaccine was an incredible innovation that changed, unfortunately not as much as we would like, but really helped get the country functioning again. and the world functioning again.

I do think that... But this is a pill. People love pills. Americans love pills. That's why I think this is going to be the game, because they're like, just solve it with the pill. Even though the pill could do the same as a vaccine, it's just something about a pill.

Love to take a pill. They love it. People want pills. I do think... They love pills. Pills are easy. Even a shot, it's like, oh, it hurts and I don't know, and it's scary, and it's a needle.

But the pill, who can't take a pill? I'm starting to feel bad that I didn't bring you any pills. I'm very sorry. I could have. No, I mean, I think this is an incredibly encouraging development. I think it could be a game changer. I will admit, I went into the pandemic,

extremely skeptical of the FDA and the CDC, but I think America joined me in that as we saw a huge number of mistakes by the public health bureaucracy, huge. And I'm, you know, this pill does not have FDA approval right now. So I want to know, how long are we going to have to wait? If this is life-saving, just like the vaccine. have turned out to be, I would really like

for people to have the right to try these life-saving medications. And I'm afraid that the bureaucracy is going to stand in the way. And one of the problems, as you have written so eloquently about, is that we have politicized medication now. I mean, ivermectin.

It's a drug. It's not a politician. It should not have any reputation except does it work or not? But like on the left, thank you for all. applauding that completely non-controversial idea. But, like, on the left, it was like, oh, no, you can't even mention it.

I think they took it, right? Isn't that part of your Meet the Censored campaign? Oh, yeah, no. People couldn't even talk about Ivermectin. And, of course, the comedians on the left would only talk about the fact that it was used to deworm horses leaving out that it's been described millions of times for humans. Now, there was a study done, a large patient study in Brazil, Ivermectin. They said had no effect. whatsoever.

But you know what? There's always multiple studies. I don't know. Doctors are also wrong a lot about shit. Well, you know, I think the thing that was really weird about COVID is that there were so many people who were suddenly rooting against or for

certain drugs. Right, rooting. Why do you care? Exactly. Root for it. Yeah, exactly. And then they have one fluvozochamine, an antidepressant, they does show a 30% reduction in risk of hospitalization. Why don't we hear about that? Why isn't that approved to talk about? I don't get it.

And what was the hydroxychloric? Remember, Trump took it. So now, oh, that was like, you know, when you touch a baby bird, it'll die because, you know, the mother knows a human touched it. I think that a lot of people want to be, a lot of people want to be gatekeepers on this. A lot of people thought that the American public was too stupid, to understand that there might be multiple different treatments

and other things going on all at once and that they just had to be told a very, very simple story that only the vaccine was good and they had to take a vaccine. And, you know, far be it for me to say the American public is not stupid. Like, that does happen. But I think when the stakes are this high and when it really is about protecting your own life,

people should be allowed to make their own choices. And if they want to read a bunch of Brazilian studies and come to their own conclusion, that should be all right. And that study may turn out to be true. But they usually do multiple, multiple studies. And also, I don't know how the Brazilian studies are done. I don't know who wrote a check. Sometimes that happens to make a study come out.

But, you know, as a doctor I read, a serious doctor said, nothing in medicine is fixed or precise, unlike other sciences. That's the case I've been trying to prosecute on this show. All right, we ran out of time. It was a lot of fun. Time for new rules, everybody. The makers of this quantum logic clock at the National Institute of Standards and Technology, which is so accurate, it would neither gain nor lose one second in 33 billion years.

Have to admit that it's such a bitch to reset when the power goes out, they chucked it and bought this one from Target. New Rule, now that the two of the biggest talent agencies in Hollywood are merging, ICM and CAA, have to change their name to, I'm caca. That way, when you're watching cats and thinking, who made this shit, you'll have the answer. Newell, stop showing me video of workers in hazmat suits spraying down trains and planes with God knows what. I'd rather take my chances with COVID than ride the Chemical Express to Cancer Town. No vacations you'd begin with, this is your captain speaking.

Our flight today contains toxins known to the state of California to cause birth defects. Now, sit back, relax, and enjoy the flight. New Roll, the organizers of the attempt to break the world record for the largest ever mass dog wedding have to invite me next time. Because, really, at what other ceremony you're going to get to see a groom cheat on his bride right there on the altar? Oh, I got him on that one. The role, since Scandinavia is only known for furniture and atmospheric crime shows about murderers, they must make an atmospheric crime show about someone who murders people with furniture

and the title of it must be if I catch you, I key you and finally new rule someone has to break it to America's travel vloggers that the part of life where you're retired and joyride around the country that's supposed to come after the working for a living part not before it

now in recent weeks the country has been transfixed with the story of a young woman murdered while traveling in a van with her boyfriend friend, and while too much attention has already been paid, this case has taught me a few things. First, that Nancy Grace is still alive. And second, how extensive

is this movement of young hipsters rejecting the dreary working life of us normies to instead explore the country in a van, which I found very odd? This is what retirees do. They get an RV and visit our

nation's many historic outlet malls. It's what Clarence Thomas and his hideous wife do for kicks. You want to emulate them? What's next? Taking up shooting birds on the ground like Dick Cheney? But of course the whole point of van life is to film your travels and put them on YouTube. You're not a hobo.

You're a content provider. Let other people work stupid jobs like nurse or teacher. You've figured out a way to monetize fucking off. Yeah, you and everybody else in your generation. According to the LA Times, content creators are the fastest growing type of small business in the U.S. By one estimate, over 50 million people worldwide

now consider themselves to be online creators or influencers. When we used to ask kids, what do you want to be when you grow up? They'd say, firefighter, astronaut. Now most 60-year-olds would probably say, I want to be Instagram famous, bitch. And I guess why not?

supposedly media savvy millennials and Gen Ziers really do buy stuff just because some ding-dong holds it up on Instagram. They laugh at boomers buying crap on QBC, but you're doing the same thing. Grandma's buying Tupperware. You're selling mascara

to each other. The only difference is she's suffering from dementia. What's your excuse? I mean, I get why nobody wants the jobs that Del Taco is offering. But honestly, that's exactly where Brian Laundry should be working.

He was never destined to be insta-famous. He was destined to forget the fries in my cheeseburger combo. I keep hearing that there are no good jobs out there. Well, there certainly are many shitty jobs out there, but there are also millions of openings in professional and business services, education, health, construction, retail, manufacturing. America right now has more job openings is that at any time in its history,

and more than there are people looking. A lot of the time, there are no good jobs out there just means I want to be Kim Kardashian. It means I want my job to be, I'm me, and people pay to watch that. What's the fallback career? Marijuana Tester.

72% of Gen Zs say they'd like to be an online celebrity. They don't even want to achieve something that makes them famous. That would involve that part. pesky step of developing some sort of talent or skill. No. Getting followers, that is the achievement. I'd say take a good long look at yourself, but plainly that's all you do all day. We spent decades dismantling the patriarchal notion that women should stay home and not work, and then the Kardashian phenomenon happened.

Now it seems like millions want to, you know, stay home and not work. This generation's financials, plan is hitting the jackpot. Getting paid to do nothing is their highest goal. So spoiled by parents who told them all you have to do is do you. They think it's fascinating for us to watch

them order eggs at a diner. But how long can we go on selling each other our life stories as the basis for an economy? It doesn't feel sustainable. You can't all be the Truman Show. Most of the time,

what these vloggers are reporting on in their travel is just themselves. This just in, we woke up. It's hard to wrap my head around this level of narcissism of so many people trying to make a living by taking pictures of themselves like they're their own paparazzi. Everyone wants to know what went on in that van

between Brian and Gabby. I want to know why filming van life is something anyone would find remotely interesting to begin with. Home movies. I've never been interesting. That is as true in the YouTube era as it was back when kids had to sit through Uncle Morty's super-rate footage

of his trip to Cypress Gardens. But at least he didn't ask us to hit the like button and subscribe to it. I'm sorry, but Brian Laundrie was not an interesting person until he became a person of interest. When I read about this couple riding around for four months, I thought, how lovely that would have been when I was 22. I don't remember having the freedom to just drive around the country.

I had to sell drugs. You did. I was starting a career. I had to pay for it. Nobody these days seems to be up for enduring those early shitty jobs and shitty apartments. We all had, as a matter of course, on the way to something better. One of the most popular games of the pandemic was an intense. Nintendo's Animal Crossing, a game where you don't do anything.

There are no bad guys. You can't die. You can't win or lose. You just kind of fuck around. What a perfect game for this generation. But what I don't get about them is, if you think having a job is so terrible, how come you're always trying to get people fired?

All right, that's our show. I'll be at the Benidim Center in Pittsburgh, October 16th, the Lyric Theater in Baltimore on October 23rd at the Hulu Theater in New York. November 13th, I want to thank Catherine Mangoo, Ward, Matt Taibi, and Stevie Van Zinn. And thank you, folks. You were great. Watch all new episodes of Real Time with Bill Maher every Friday night at 10. Or watch them anytime on HBO On Demand.

For more information, log on to HBO.com.