Ep. #602: Eric Holder, Michael Shellenberger, Douglas Murray
00:00Welcome to an HBOpodcast from the HBO late-night series,Real Time with Bill Maugh.I've got a show.Thank you.Thank you very much.I know why you're happy tonight.Amber Heard has been brought to justice.
00:55Our long national nightmare is over.Oh.Well, it's about time, ladies and gentlemen.I mean, you say what you want about the mafia.They just left the horses head in your bit.but it's going to be a little empty now, isn't it?That's right.We kind of got hooked on that.
01:16Americans are going to have to find a new wayto feel better about their own relationship.But yes, Amber Hurd, according to the court,now owes Johnny Depp $15 million in damages.She says she's going to pay upand her new cryptocurrency.Shit coin.Shit coin.
01:44Boy, new reports.says investors have lost a billion dollars recently in buying fake crypto coins.They said it could have been worse. It could have been real crypto coins.So we were off last week and I turned around and it's summer.Are you excited that it's summer now?Really?Okay. I'm excited.But I have to point out it is the drought.
02:14Of course, worse in summer.Not funny. We have no water. We never have.I don't know what the fuck is going on.I turn on the tap.I'm like, where is the shit coming from?It never, never rains out here.I mean, it's so severe now.Shoplifters in San Francisco are stealing water.
02:36Way out of control.In Mendocino County,they told the residents,they only use water for the essentials,bathing, drinking, and filling up your bonn.Those are the only...And, uh...But, no, summer is very...
02:55exciting. It's graduation season.Many grads, oh, very exciting.Very exciting time.That right of passagewhere the kids go on their wondrousjourney, you know, after theirtime at the halls of academia.Back to the bedroom they grew up in with the
03:13X-Men bedsheets.No, we hope not.We hope there's good jobs out there.You know what, there are good jobs for teenagers.They say this summer they are desperateto get teenagers to help.Of course, teenagers, they're entitled to asses, are too good for these jobs.They don't, there are jobs. They don't want fast food jobs.
03:36Here's how you get them to take it.Tell them, look, you're not a fast food worker.You're a diabetes influencer.It's a...It's a...Interesting economy we have here.We have 21 cases of monkey parks and three cases of baby formula.But here's
04:09something I found out this week.I didn't realize this.The Lincoln Memorial turned 100.1922.I thought of it.Oh, yeah, okay.We can all agree on the Lincoln Memorial.We love the Lincoln Memorial.
04:25And it is sort of a perfect metaphor for America right now.A Republican who experienced gun violence and did nothing.Just sat there.Well, people are a little angry about what happened there,the police in the horrible shooting in Texas a couple of weeks ago,when they just remained outside.But, you know, the police in Texas are very conservative.They said, we don't go in unless it's an active groomer situation.
05:02No, the Texas police, they are very pro-life, mostly their own.So Biden, did you see that?President Biden made a big speech last week.night about gun control? Oh, good. We also... Yeah, I meant to watch, but the other 300 channelswere showing a movie where some guy looked cool shooting people. But once again, Biden said we've got toget rid of the semi-automatic rifles. I say we should. Yes, I think that would help a little.And he said, if you get... He said from now on, if you get caught with the wrong kind of gun-killingpeople, you are in big trouble. In a somewhat related story, did you?
05:57You see a nut in Italy or Paris attacked the Mona Lisa with cake?Cake.And the NRA put out a statement, they said,if only the other paintings had cake of their own.This would not have happened.All right, we've got a great show.We have Michael Schellenberger and Douglas Murray.First up, he is the former U.S. Attorney General,
06:23who recently co-authored the book, Our Unfinished March,The Violent Past and Imperaled Future of the Vote,History of Crisis, a plan.Eric Holder.There he is.Okay.Good to see you.All right.
06:41Glad to see you again.You look hell.You look well.You look rested.Yeah.I'm pretty good.Yeah.Okay.
06:48Nation's not doing too well, but I'm doing it's not.No, I know.Well, no, it's not.We've got a lot of problems.I want to talk about your book.It's about democracy and voting,which I understand are connected.Yeah.
06:59Yeah.Well, we try to connect them, you know.There's a issue there.So let's, for some of the maybe younger people who don't remember,let's go over the Voting Rights Act, for those who are fuzzy on the facts.Voting Rights Acts passed in 1965.What was in the voter?What did it do?
07:16It gave the Justice Department the ability to stop local jurisdictions who were so-called coveredfrom doing a variety of things that had been done in the past,moving polling places, closing polling places, changing election dates,all the kinds of things that were designed to keep African Americans away fromthe poll. Mostly in the south, right?Mostly in the south. Okay. Although parts of New York were also coveredby the voting rights. Oh, I'm sure it went on everywhere.But mostly the south. Okay. So then in
07:412013, the Supreme Court gutted thatlaw. And until then, it had passed,it would have been up for re-upped, right, every year.The Senate voted, I think, only two years before that98 to nothing. Right. That wewanted it again. It was reauthorizedthree times and every time by a Republican president.Okay. So what happened when the vote, when in 2013, when
08:03got gutted.The Supreme Court, led by Chief Justice Roberts, who wrote the decision, said America has changedand said there was no longer a need for the provisions that they gutted in the Voting Rights Act,in spite of the fact that Congress had conducted hearings, hundreds of pages of testimony,hundreds of documents, and almost immediately after the act was gutted, states put intoplace a whole variety of things.1,700 polling places closed since 2013, closure of polling places that were done.requirement for photo IDs to prevent in-person voter fraud.
08:37When the Brennan Center says you're more likely to hit by lightning than to actuallycast that in-person fraudulent ballot, a whole bunch of unnecessary things to keepAfrican-Americans, young people, Hispanics, people received as Democrats away from the pollshave been put in place since the Shelby County decision.But photo IDs are popular, even among African-Americans.Something like three-quarters of whites, and I think 69% of black folks say,Yeah, we should have photo IDs.So why is that an issue?
09:07Well, you see, I'm for voter ID as opposed to photo ID.You should prove...No, we're talking about photo ID.To prove that you should vote.Yeah, but here's the deal.What they've done, like in Texas, they said, you have to have photo ID.If you have a photo ID issued by the state of Texas that says that you can carry a concealed weapon, that's cool.If you have a state issued photo ID that says you're a student at the University of Texas, not cool.
09:31And so you can see how they're trying to...fool around with it. So Georgiapassed a law that you would say probably wouldn't havehappened before the law was the Voting Rights Act was gutted right? Clearly not.Okay. Joe Biden called a Jim Crow 2.0.Right. But Georgia just had an election andthe vote went up, including among African Americans. How do you square that?That's a testament to the fact that black folks have said, no matter what
09:56impediments you put in front of us, we're going to the polls. And that's whatthey did. And now it doesn't, you know, and we seethat in the book, throughout history, black Americans have risk life, limb, done everything theypossibly can to get access to the ballot. And the fact that you had a turnout that was higherthan perhaps that you'd seen before is not an indication that those provisions that they putinto law were necessarily good ones. The question you have to ask the Georgia legislature is,why did you put them in place in the first place, having done an election that everybodysaid was fair? Why did you then have to put these other provisions in place?
10:32Among them, you can't give people who are waiting in line water or food, and you figure,what's that all about?Well, it turns out in Atlanta, 2020 election, same night, if you're African-American,you wait 51 minutes to vote.If you're white, same place, Atlanta, same election, you wait six minutes to vote.So you get to see what's behind some of the stuff they've done.Just the idea that it takes so long to vote that you might need food.Well, but...
11:02Seems a little ridiculous.It seems a little ridiculous, and yet you have in places around the country,and particularly disproportionately in communities of color,people are waiting two and three hours.But ask yourself, why would the legislature make any criminal offenseto offer water to somebody who's waiting in line to vote?I get it.So you've been working on gerrymandering.
11:23That's been pretty much your passion, right,since you left the Attorney General's office.And we just finished the redistricting process.Every 10 years, because populations change,they call it the redistricting process.It should be called the gerrymandering processbecause that's what's going on.What I read is that the Democrats got their ass kicked
11:44that, well, that some, I think 17 Trump stateswere redistricting in the favor of the Republicansand only seven in Biden states.Is that not true?If you break it down and look at the House of Representatives,representatives and say, all right, let's look at pro-Biden districts, based on the vote in 2020,pro-Biden districts and pro-Trump districts. The Democrats actually have more districts that nowfavor us than Republicans. We're certainly better off than we were in 2011, the last time that
12:14we did this. And there are more fair state legislatures, which people don't give enough attentionto, more fair state legislatures. So no, Democrats did not get their asses kicked in the redistrictingprocess. In fact, we came out ahead.But I also read that the number of states that have independent, which California has that.There's an independent commission.I mean, every state should have that.Absolutely.Okay, so that an independent commission draws the state.
12:39And then I read that we lost 13 to 4 there, the Democrats.13 states have independent commissions only four on the other side.Yeah, but here's the deal.if things are fairDemocrats and progressiveswill do just finewe don't have to put our thumb on the scale to winso where you saw fairness in those
13:03places in those 13 statesDemocrats did absolutelyabsolutely just fine that's what we were fighting forwe simply wanted to make the system fairconfident that we had better candidateswe certainly have policies that are closerto the people than Republicans dothey're the ones
13:18they areAs I say in the book, this iteration of the Republican Party just ain't that into democracy.You know, that's the reality.Let's talk about that.I mean, Merrick Garland has your old job, and he's got a big decision coming up about what to do.The January 6th hearings, I believe, start in a couple of weeks.They're going to be on television.Some Democrats say it's going to be just like Watergate days.
13:45I don't think Americans are that interested.I think we're too tribal right now, but we'll see.What would you do if you were still the Attorney General about Trump and January 6th?Well, I tell you, if you'd ask me that question about a year or so ago,I would have said I would have been awfully concerned about the divisive nature of bringing a case against a former president.But now because of what we know, what great journalists have done,the leaks that have come from the January 6th committee,if you show me that Donald Trump was involved in the efforts to, in essence, foment a coup,
14:18and you can show the requisite intent,he has to be indicted.And what would that entail after you indict him?After you indict him, well, he would then, you know,take him to trial just like anybody else.I think, you know, you can look at what Merrick Garland is going to do.I think my primary, my first analysis would bewhat's going to happen to him in Georgia.
14:41Well, you've got him on tape saying, you know,find me 11,780.That one is close to a layup, it seems to me.I've always said the same thing about that one.Why don't they just go after that?one moment. It's on tape.You have the smoking gun. He's sayingI mean, I remember when Rod Blagojevich
14:59was on tape.That didn't work out too well for him.No, I know. But it waspretty blatant, but it wasn't as bad asfind me 11,000 votes.Yeah, yeah. No, I think, as I said, I think that's close to a layup.The DA down there is going to be calling witnesses, I understand,before a special grand jury. But the interesting thing
15:18there is that that can also be a specificationin a federal charge that could be broughtin Washington, D.C., when you're charging him with conspiracy to defraud and conspiracy to obstruct.What happened in Georgia can actually be part of a federal case as well.So I think, you know, I was a federal prosecutor doing political corruption cases when I first cameto the Justice Department for 12 years, and you get a feel for these things after a while.I get the feeling that I can see where this one is going, and a lot of high-level people in the Trumpadministration, I suspect the president himself, people at the Justice Department are all going to find themselves
15:50on a little document that says the United States versus fill in the blame.Thank you for coming here.I appreciate everything you do.Eric Calder, ladies and gentlemen.Let's meet our panel.Hey, you guys.All right.There they are.
16:14He is currently running for governor of California.Wow, and he's on our show.And is the author of Sam Francisco.Why Progressives Ruined City's Michael Schellenberger.And here's a columnist for The New York Post,and author of the best-selling book, The War on the West,How to Prevail in the Age of Unreason, Douglas Murray.How you doing?
16:37Okay, guys, let me start with an impossible question to ask you.We were off last week when, what, you're afraid already?Yeah.Well, it's impossible, so you can't fuck it up.I already said it's impossible, no pressure.Well, the question is this.I mean, after that horror unfolded,there was first the outrage about availability of weaponry in American,
16:58and then there was a second outrage.about the fact that the cops stood outside and didn't do anything.And this is becoming a pattern in America.Parkland, there was a cop there or a security guard, didn't do his job.The Mandalay Bay.The guy went up to the wrong floor and stayed there.What do you do about people who are paid to act and just don't?How do you solve that problem?
17:27Because, I mean, they could take away a lot of different kinds of guns.I mean, this kid was in the room for 40 minutes before anybody came in.It wouldn't have mattered what kind of gun he had.Any kind of gun could do on any amount of damage in that time.What do you do about law enforcement who don't do their job?There's the impossible question.I mean, I think there was this initial reaction that these police officers werecowardly. I don't think we know that.
18:00I have to expect thatI have to expect that many of thosepolice officers are having a hard time sleeping at nightafter what's occurred. Oh, I feel bad for them.Well, I mean, I think... They shouldhave a hard time sleeping. Yeah, although...What the fuck?My concern is that
18:18my concern is that I think whenour institutions fail us,we are so quick towant to shut down the institutions, want todemonize the people in those institutions,yes, they got training. The training didn't work.The answer to it is going to be more training. It's going to be to get better at it.We focus on when things go wrong, but things mostly don't go wrong.
18:41We need to learn from these mistakes.It's not institutions, it's people. This is not institutions who didn't run into the building.It's people. People didn't do it. Yeah. That's not an institution.And by the way, this is part of the problem with police training.Their training is all about how to preserve their life.Now, of course, we want them to be as safe as they can.But it is a job that entails danger.Somewhere they got it into their head, the cops,
19:06that it's better that I just save, preserve my health.But you're there to protect and serve us.That's the deal.You get to, you know, walk tall all the time.Everybody kisses your ass.Everybody has to comply with you.And then once in a while, you just have to ball up and do the job.It's dangerous.
19:27I was always told when I came to America from Britainthat British people who speak like meshould never talk about two things, abortion and guns,because we can never understand it.And there is something in that.I actually have tried very hard to understand,and I do understand why the gun issue exists in America,the people who are very committed to it
19:48who see the Second Amendmentas an absolutely crucial part of America freedoms,and I understand their fear always that the guns are going to be taken away,nevertheless, saying as an outsider,it's still inexplicable to methat a guy at the age of 18can go into a shopand buy a battlefield-style weapon
20:08and he would have to wait another three yearsto buy a beer and a bar.There is something...Just that the first step...The first step, like, let's at least switchthose two things around.Let's get used to beer before we try to get usedto battlefield weapons.
20:24Yes, and the 18 to 20one thing I think is crucial. I meanguys, we're all guyswe know how stupid we wereat age. Especially men.They mature, slower than women.Not that you're a genius at 21.But taking those three years away
20:44the least we could do.And at the moment there's this weird row going on againpeople saying in Congress, well,people are allowed to join the military at 18.Well, there is every difference in the worldbetween going into the militarygetting the most rigorous training, getting your force directed in specific ways,and just handing an 18-year-old a gun that he can use on the American streets.
21:04There's every difference.But the problem is, you're just always at this stalemate in this country about this,because they say that every time some atrocity like this happens,there's somebody who can say they're going to take away all of our guns,and then nothing gets done again.But as for the police stuff, I mean, this is just, as you say, Bill,I mean, this has happened again and again.I don't...
21:26It's hard to judge what you'd doin a particular situation,but as you say,you know, it's their jobto sit in the corridorfor 40 minuteswhilst kids are callingand not run in.
21:36I'd have liked to have seen...If there'd have been a bunchof American motherswith guns in the corridor,they'd have been in therein no seconds before.And they were.Yeah, there were moms.
21:46There were moms.They were getting arrestedby the policeand tasered by the policeand handcuffed by the police.for wanting to go into the school.Because job one is always compliance.Right.
21:58With the police.Do what I say above all.Yeah.Yeah.And that's the issue, right?I mean, I think you have to look for a systematic solution to this.My concern is that we saw police bad behavior in 2020.We saw bad behavior in 2015 with Ferguson.
22:12And our response was, for many people, was to defund the police, demonize the police.And we saw what occurred.Police pull back.Criminals felt emboldened.We saw a big increase in crime, 30% increase in homicides.The communities most impacted were black communities.Those are the communities that are now demanding an increase in policing.So we can lament these individual incidents, the bad behavior of some individuals.
22:38But the broader solution is we've got to stop tearing down the institutions that we need to protect our civilization.That includes policing.I've seen it with psychiatric hospitals.There were bad abuses in a psychiatric hospitals.but did we need to shut them all downbefore creating the alternative?I see it power plants,psychiatric hospitals, police stations,
22:59now we're going to release,you know, get rid of our prisons.We should be seeking to rehabilitate people.We should be seeking improvements and reforms.But I get concerned about these effortsto just tear down institutionswithout, instead of we should be reforming.Well, I mean, you're almost running for governor
23:20on a one-issue platformabout homelessness.I would consider a pro-civilization platform.No, I agree.I agree with it.I mean, this is all...We're talking about civilization tonight.Really, that is the thread that runs through your book and your book
23:34and something like people in a country thinking that they can't safely send their children to school.Yes, right.It's all about civilization.But you think, and I understand where you're coming from with homelessness,it's something that people, especially in this city, in this state,in our two biggest city, San Francisco and L.A., look at it.and go, why can't you do something?Why can't you do something for...
23:57Okay, not just for the homeless people, but for us, for both of us.You're failing both of us.And you think you have the solution.What is it?Well, you know, I mean, as background, I was a progressive Democrat until last year.I changed my party affiliation.I'm now an independent.And people say, well, what are you?
24:16What is your identity?And I would say, I'm a liberal in my compassion for the vulnerable.I'm a libertarian in my passion for freedom.and I'm a conservative in that I believe you need civilization to protect both of them.And so what we need to do is...I think that's great.I think it's too complicated for the electorate, but I think it's great.And maybe things?
24:34I don't get...Okay.I mean, I'm inspired...I want to see that on the hat, Michael.That is just a few...Shoes hat.A little bit longer than MAGA, I think, a little bit longer.I mean, look, you know, I'm inspired by what they've done in Europe.
24:49You go to Amsterdam.You go to other parts of Europe.They don't have open-air drug scenes.They don't have homeless encampments.There's been an experiment between 2020 and 2021.Three times more homeless people died in Los Angeles than in New York City,even though there's 14,000 fewer homeless people.Why?
25:06Because in New York, they shelter 96% of the homeless,less than a third of the homeless are sheltered in L.A.It's not safe for them.Nearly 100% of the women I interview in homeless encampmentshave been sexually assaulted multiple times.They're being killed.they're being sexually assaulted.They're being hit by cars.
25:25This is absolutely, we just have to,you have to shut down the homeless encampments.We've got to get people the rehab,the psychiatric care that they need.It's not fair to them.It's not fair to us.Okay.But just speaking as the guy
25:39with a hat that has three or four words on it,why don't we?What is the problem?That's what people want to know.Why are we not?doing something that would help both parties.And it's so strange because it's happening in city after city.It's like when I first visited San Francisco about quarter of a century ago,
26:01I remember thinking, this is one of the most beautiful cities in the world.And it should be.It's got the best position.It's got an amazing climate and much else.And then over the years, it became clear that it was becoming a real slum city.And instead of people saying, hey, that doesn't work very well at all,it was rolled out on city after city in America.You go to Austin.
26:21It's the same scene.I was in D.C. the other week.And the capital of this nation, every single green area is covered in tents.And so everybody in this country is getting used to the idea this is normal.It's not normal.Other First World countries are not like that.They don't have homeless encampments everywhere.God knows everyone's got their own trouble.
26:42But no other First World country I know has the normalization of homelessness,of people shooting up on the streets,of really mentally ill peoplejust wandering around, screaming at the moon,and everyone says, well, that's just kind of part of life.It's not normal.That's right.Well, yes.
27:04And I think part of the problem with us not having a solution to thisis that there are people out therewho heard you say, First World Country,and went, how dare you?Because part of the problem with losing civilizationis when you fail to make judgmentsabout how some thingsare better than others. We have seen this
27:25over and over again. Nothingis better than anything else.Keeping women in burghers is just a differentway to go. Andit's just not a different way to go. Andhaving shit in the park,human feces, when you're tryingto have a little baseball game with your kids or something,
27:41is just worse.Yeah. I mean, it's really this...Progressives have a very big blind spot,which is that they think if you're helpingthat no harm can come from that.And that's just not the case when you're doingpeople suffering from late-stage drug addiction,people that are psychotic from mental illness
27:57or from long-use, long-term methamphetamine use.Folks need to be required to go inside.It's not safe for them.Shelters should be safe.They should be basic.They should be clean.But you can't equivocate on this issue.And you're saying we basically have to say to homeless people
28:13what they say in bars.You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.Exactly.You don't have to go into the shelters,but you can't sleep outside.It's not safe.There is this idea always that we could solve these problems if we had more empathy.Right.
28:29Sometimes empathy isn't enough.You know, sometimes too many rules it doesn't work either.But too much empathy doesn't work either.I live in New York and I was on the subway the other day.And there's a new advert that the New York Health Authority has put up for heroin users saying,Don't feel shame.It's amazing.Don't feel shame about being.
28:49Oh, I have it here.It's, well, that's the fentanyl one.There's one in San Francisco.Okay, we'll do that one first.Don't be ashamed you are using.Okay, that's the first thing it says.This is part of the problem of losing civilization.Shame is part of life.
29:07We do this everything.Toxic positivity.Everything is positive.Everything is not positive.You should be ashamed that you're using.That might get you to stop.Exactly.The New York health authorities have been
29:25shaming people in New York if they haven't had their third booster shotor didn't wear their cloth mask or haven't put a cloth mask over their five-year-old,but it's great if you're a smack user.You should feel real pride.Gee, I've got it all wrong.Look, I mean, you need love.We need love, but the Beatles were wrong.Love is not all you need.
29:51You also need discipline.And there is a role for what the scholars call pro-social stigma.Compare that ad promoting hair.heroin use to the ads we run against cigarette smoking.I mean, we were, California was a leader in stamping out cigarette smoking by shamingcigarette smoking, disallowing cigarette smoking.And it worked.And it worked very well.
30:11But also, I mean, remember defining deviancy downward?That phrase from Patrick Moynihan.That ad says, start with a small dose and go slowly.I mean, it's a how-to to be a drug addict.Yeah.Test your drugs using fentanyl test strips.Just do it with friends.That's the heroin one in here.
30:35No, this is the heroin one in San Francisco.Do it with friends.Use with people and take turns.Yeah.Try not to use alone.I love this one.Change it up.Change it up.
30:48Injecting drugs carries the highest risk.Try smoking or snorting instead.This is...Can you imagine explaining that to your kids?No, this is what I'm always saying to the left side of the countrywhen what you're doing sounds like an onion headline.Stop.All right.
31:09One final point.Yes, sir?Briefly, millions of people, millions of people around the world every yearrecover from their addiction.This addiction pessimism, this idea that we have to maintain addictionrather than help people to overcome it,it's dehumanizing.It's deeply pessimistic.
31:29It's anathema to the spirit of California,which is around human potential, human freedom.This is about addiction,addiction maintenance, and chemical slavery.Okay. I have to interrupt to do this.Nancy Brophy was in the news this week.I don't know if you know who she is.She wrote the book, How to Murder Your Husband.
31:49And then she was convicted of murder her husband.And we have done this bit before.I think it was when Andrew Cuomo had a bookabout how he was the great governorwho solved all the problems,and then he got caught being a perv.And so it's a little department.We call books that didn't age well,
32:14ladies ago.Books that didn't age well.And would you like to hear some of them?Okay.Here are some other books that didn't age well.Nick Cannon's Birth Control for Dummiesdid not age well.Hunter Biden's firewall, your complete guide to laptop security.
32:40Will Smith, counting to zest,to remaining calm under pressure, did not age well.Matt Damon, the future is doge coin.Terrible.Mark Zuckerberg, how Facebook is bringing America together,did not age well.Jennifer Lopez'sNever Date Your Ex, Terrible
33:09aging issue there.Tom Brady's family before football.No.Johnny Depp hadTaking the Plunge, when you know you know.And Madonna had a guide to aginggracefully. That did not really go away.So, let's
33:40continue. I love this discussionwe're having about civilizationbecause your book talksabout the West, I mean, you talk about a waron the West. Again, let's pausefor a second for some of the younger viewerswho want to watch a show like thisand are like, what do they mean by the West?
33:55You're not born knowing that. Let's justbe basic here. What is it, what arewe talking about when we say the West?Well, it's, in some ways, it'sa geographical fact. In others,it's a civilizational one.It's both. Right. And broadly speaking,the West is a product of a very
34:11specific set of values and ideas.I'd say that the religiousEurope, mostly through Europe, starting in Greece and Rome antiquity and then a mood.It's basically the fusion of the biblical tradition and Athens and Jerusalem,and then the ancient civilizations of Greece and Rome.And that gave us much of the ideas.It got refined through the fires of the Enlightenment.Got to England, they came to America.
34:37That's the West.You did your thing.What it's not is Africa, Asia, Russia, that's the East or the,You know what it is when you're not in it.You know if you're in Beijing, you're not in the West.It's an amazing place.Tokyo, it's an amazing place, but you're not in the West.People who want to know what third world, if they heard that,
34:56that comes from the Cold War.The first world was us good guys in the West who had democracy and richer economies.The second world was the communists,and the third world was poor countries who were too poor to care about either one of those systems.That was the third world.We don't use that term anymore.Okay.So let's leave that.
35:21Why is there a war on it?What is the war? Why?One of the things that's come to concern me recently is...I mean, this country, America, as you know very well,about as divided as you can be without having a war.Correct.You agree on almost nothing.I mean, having different opinions is so last century.
35:42Now you've got different facts.Right.Yes.Right.You can't...You know, and this goes always, you know, you have an election in 2016, and part of the countrydoesn't accept it.You have an election in 2020, part of the country doesn't accept it.
35:59That's not normal in a democracy.No.Mostly, if you win, you know you've won, and when you've lost, you know you've lost, andthat's really good for you.Really good for you.So one of the things that started to concern me is...Really good for the civilization.Yes.
36:11Yes.Because you've got to work out what you did wrong.marked up the people didn't like you.Maybe you're not very likable.Right.And let's also...And let's also point out thatin most countries in the world
36:24throughout history,that didn't happen.Right.Where one guy just went,you know what?I lost.Yeah, most of history is...Good fight.
36:32Now you take over this placewhere we run the country.Most of history is peoplelike hitting each otherover the head and taking their stuff.And lots of...Still are doing that.And still doing that.
36:41Yes.So one of the thingshas just increasingly worried meand as an immigrantin this country is, thepast really matters in thesecircumstances. The past reallymatters. And I've just seen
36:55in recent years a remorseless waron everything in the Western past, and particularlyon the American past. A waron, I mean, to the extent that you can't evenagree anymore when America was founded,the New York Times used to be the public, the paper of record,has deliberately tried to shiftthe founding date of America.
37:11That sort of stuff matters.You're talking about the 1619 project.If you don't agree when your nation was founded, that's quite a big difference.If you don't agree whether the founding fathers were any good or not,whether they were just slave owners or they were something else maybe, that's not good.When you can't agree that Abraham Lincoln was a hero, that's not good.If you can't agree on any of the past, you know, I live in New York,and last November of the New York Council Chamber,
37:34the city council chamber, voted to remove the statue of Thomas Jefferson.This happens all the time.But when a mob doesn't get to a statue, the authorities will take it down preemptively.And the council chamber in New York pulled down, crated up,and took out the back door the statue of Thomas Jeffersonthat had been there since the 1830s.You know, one of the members of the council said,well, that's because Thomas Jefferson doesn't represent our values.
38:01Now, if Thomas Jefferson doesn't represent your values, who does?Okay.Who does?Well, you know what they're talking.Who are you going to nominate yourself, maybe?Okay.You know, and again, so really what you're saying isthe war on the West is from people who only see the bad
38:21in what the West has done.And, of course, the West did things like colonialism.Sure.And had slavery.I think what they're missing is that those are human things.Everyone did those bad things.Right.The things that the West did good, I'm not going to say they're unique to the West,
38:37but there's some pretty good things that all the people who hate the Westwouldn't really want to live without.Like rule of law and air conditioning.What a weird thing it would be to go to Africa,to countries which, in where people sold slaves to the Arabs,to the Europeans and others, what a weird thing it would be to go to, say,any country like Nigeria and say, you know, everyone in Nigeria,you're all guilty because of this now.
39:02And they say, well, it wasn't my time.No, but you're guilty now.Well, people do that with the West.It's a very strange thing.It's unique to the West.we should be self-critical, but we shouldn't become self-destructive.We need to have things we revere from the past.We need to have things that we treasure.
39:19We need to have common heroes.And if I can just go back to what you're saying about Africa,I think, to clarify, you're saying that the people who captured the slavesin the interior of Africa were other Africans.Oh, for sure, of course.Right.Okay.And then they brought them to the coast.
39:32Because there was a trade all around the world.But again, it's a human thing to be a schmuck.That's huge.It is. It's justhumans are not good people.I've said it many times.They just are not. I've seen evidence.I've seen it too. And like the word slave comes from
39:55Slav, which are white people.And you know, in Saudi Arabia, in other Arab countries still,they use the word abid, abid, plural, for black people there.It means slave. They use the term now. There are 40 million slavesin the world today.more than they were in the 19th century. If peoplein America could get off this thingof endlessly beating up on their own
40:18past and look at the world today,you could do something about actual problems.What do you stand on?I mean, I think you're also sayingyou're also saying something else, which is thatwe're responsible for our own behaviors.We're not responsible for the behaviors of white people200 years ago. It's individual
40:38responsibility. So Amber Hurd isresponsible for her behaviors.Johnny Depp is responsible for his behavior.Wow. It's quite a segue, Mike.Well, you kind of...I was thinking about beforehand,because the producers said I needed to have something to say about this,you know, equal justice under the law
40:56is a better principle than believe all women.We actually have a system set up to evaluate the claims made,and we don't discriminate or make judgments based on your group identity.We hold individual responsibility above all else.By the way...Right.Can I just say that it.One of the things I say in the war on the West is this,
41:18is that we know that there must be something good about us now.Why do we know that?Because migrants around the world want to come to the West.The top country in the world that migrants want to come tois the United States for America by a very long way.The next countries are Britain, Canada,and a couple of other Western countries.So the footfall tells us something.
41:39When the boats cross the Mediterranean from North Africa to the south of Europe,they don't meet boats going the other way.When migrants cross the southern border,they don't meet Texans fleeing to Guatemala or Venezuela.So the point is, the point is,the footfall tells us something.The footfall tells us something.And my suggestion is,
41:58if we've done something rightthat means the world wants to come here now,it must mean we did something right in the past.This country was designed well.Well, I mean,the things that the West has done well,Yes. Again, I'm suredemocracy and science, you know...
42:18Freedom of speech, freedom of belief.Jury system...I mean, when I was... You know, minority rights, not immediately,but first we had individualites, then yes, we got...It is an evolution.And we care when we're accused of racism.Separation.We care. Most countries in the world don't.
42:36Tell the Chinese Communist Party you found a racist infraction.Gosh, they'd mind.Separating church and state is kind of a big one.think, you know, separating religionfrom secularism. I thinkthe idea that people, there's an idea that people had.I had it when I was a teenage, you know,young radical leftist, which is that other
42:52countries are poor because we're mean tothem, that we exploit them. There's noappreciation that we do havethis system. Sometimes true. And sometimes it's true,but that there's this internalculture, there's rule of law, we have aconstitution, we have equal justiceunder the law, that these are the institutions
43:09that made our civilization, ourfreedoms, our wealth possible, andthat that's the key, and that's why people want to come here.It's not because we're meaner than other peoplethat other people are worse off.All right. Thanks, guys.Appreciate it.Interesting discussion.
43:23Let's go to New Rules now, everybody.Okay, new rules.New Rules. When you post this video of the bride and groomwill perform the stunt of lighting themselves on fireafter exchanging vows.You don't have to add, don't try this at home.Believe me,I won't.
43:55It looks like the absolute last thing I would ever try.And the fire part looks scary, too.New Rule, before you're outraged by this storyof a New York City woman who threw this opossum out of a bar,just know you had to be there to understand, okay?No, really.This opossum was already wasted when he came in.Where all the oh pussy was at.
44:31and he left screaming,I thought this was America.New Roll sex toysshouldn't look like they're going to hurt me.New York Magazinecalls this one of the best sex toys you can buy.For humans?Because it looks like something for jerking off E.T.
45:03I don't even know where it goes.I mean, I have an idea, but...Oh, fuck, let's just change this topic.New Rule, families who hang up a sign in their home that says, family, have to explain why.Do they need reminding that they're related and shouldn't have sex with each other?Susie, you're looking hot today.Dad, the sign?Right, never mind.
45:56New Rule, if Joe Biden wants to do something to unite America, he should fire every cop in Yuvaldi, Texas, and replace them with Josh Dugger.He's a worthless waste of space, too, but at least,he's interested in children.And finally, new rule, before we tackleany of our daunting, specificproblems here in America,we have to figure out how a country can solveany problem if so many of its people
46:26are so intractably, astoundingly,mind-numbingly stupid.And I'm not saying thatas hyperbole or just out offrustration. I mean this countryjust might be empirically, verifiablytoo fucking dumb to continueas an ongoing
46:44enterprise.Jay Leno used to do a classic bit called jaywalking,where he asked ordinary citizens the kind of question we used to consider common knowledge.And in the Internet age, that bit has been, shall we say, updated.And is still a useful indicator of where exactly we are on the birdbrain chart.Take a look at some of the answers given on a TikTok site called Project Better.Who is the first person to land on the sun?Land something, land.
47:19Lance?Lance Armstrong is the biggest city in the world?I think it's like Asia?What is the biggest city in the world?Europe.You were born in 2021?How old would you be?21.
47:37What country is Venice, Italy located in for $100?Do you have any clue?Gosh, I'm going to be a teacher, so I should know this.You should.Paris?Where is Queen Elizabeth from?From Egypt?Egypt?
47:53Where is it?Brazil.So you tell me, if a country is only as strong as its people, what can the future possibly hold for a population this moronic?Being a full-grown adult and thinking a human could walk on the sun?Or that the biggest city in the world was Asia?When plainly it's Europe.This country simply has no education standards anymore.They will let you out of a public high school and give you a diploma,
48:35and you don't have to actually know anything,which used to be the mission of schools, knowing things.I know it's super important to stop the grooming of our kids,or, I don't know, to start it,and certainly critical race theory must be stricken from the curriculum,or who knows, maybe included in all of it.But, you know, while we're having those fights,could someone please notice that the kids
48:58don't actually know anything?As I travel this countryon weekends doing stand-up now,I see the political ads that are running on the localTV markets, andI think, how can this possiblywork on people?And then I remember, oh yes, they think
49:20Queen Elizabeth is from Egypt.When again, plainly, it's Brazil.Political campaignsused to turn out two kinds of ads.The positive, or what I like tocall the village people ad,where you're seen with a cop,a construction worker,
49:51a military guy,and a monarch. And then thenegative ads, the ones that look likethey were shot by Navy SEALs wearingnight vision goggles,where you make your opponent look like someonewho killed their spouse on an episodeof day bomb.
50:12But now it seems they figured outthat the people are dumb enough that you can put thepositive and the negative in the same ad.Here's one we see in L.A.hundred times a day for congressperson young kim eight times in a row politician gregg raffes increased ourtax rates and fees just like biden and the liberals raths makes california unaffordable greg raths evenproposed raising his taxpayer salary over 60 percent we pay more he makes more that's politiciangregg raths but young kim is fighting raths in the liberals that's right i'm young kim and unlike my
50:56opponent i'm in colorCome on. Don't want your representative to be in color?As opposed to an x-ray?And I don't chew on cigars or stuff cash in my pockets or get drunk with Washington insiders.And jail cell doors never shut behind me.When candidates in political ads say, I approve this message, they should have to add at the end, you dumb fucks.I'm Brad Turnbull, and I approve this message, you dumb fucks.Candidates always say they're just highlighting the differences between them and their opponents.
51:50Here's Congressman Mark Moore's ad highlighting the difference between him and opponent Melanie Stansberry.Murderers, rapists, and child blusters walking free.We need to pass the Breathe Act in Congress.Stop the madness. Stop Melanie Stansberry.Stansbury? Why are you so pro-rapist and child molester?Don't you know that voters see child molestersunfavorably? Voters want someone who will let them knowI'm the good guy because I'm meeting with firemen. I'm meeting with teachers.
52:32I'm meeting with cops. I'm talking to kids. I'm talkingto black kids. I'm wearing a hard hat and looking concerned.I'm pointing to the border wall with my thumb.Come on, that's my thumb.You must know I got this.After all, didn't you hear me say,I'm strong on values and good for jobs,that I'm fighting for you and on your side,
53:05and I'm going to get things done and shake things up?And then I have a plan, details to follow,to clean things up.My God, my sleeves are rolled up.More evidence do you need?I'm the good guy.Unlike my opponents,who's always cackling maniacic.
53:29and wholives in Washingtongood guys live in America, which is great and pure.Bad guys live in Washington, gross.They're always career politicians.Career politician.Career politician.Career politician.
53:48Career politician.Career politicians.Career politician.Yeah, career politician.Good guys don't even go to Washington,but they will if they have to.Like my...Garcia. It won't be easy on my family, but it's something we'll go through together.
54:08I just hope they don't get killed by Melanie Stansberry.And, you know, I'm not picking on Mike or Young King or any of them in particular becausethey're all alike. Well, wait, not all. There are actually some ads that are even more submental.And in 2022, I'm going to blow away the Democrat Socialist Agenda.Here's three wordsno one ever has to say to Marjorie Taylor Green.Dumb it down.There is an entire species
55:09of political ads on the rightwhere the candidatejust shoot something they don't like.A lot of these ads make no mentionof policy at all. It's justtruck, gun.Me like these things you like. Vote me.But here's something I notice
55:42that's different about the adsthat conservatives make.make versus the ones from liberals. The conservatives wear that description like it's their firstname. They cannot say it enough. I'm a conservative outsider. America's most conservative.Top-rated conservative. A real conservative. Proven conservative. Christian conservative.America first conservative warrior. I'm so conservative. But you never hear anyone bragging about being aliberal. There's noliberal Bob Schmohawk as a liberal
56:20who wants to enact more liberal policies.Democrats mightwant to think about what that means.Because the implication is you're embarrassedby what liberalism has becomethat the term is now irredeemably coupled withwoke nonsense. Which is a shamebecause despite their nonsense,
56:38it's still generally,generally a better product.But what does it say about your brandif you don't want to say what you are?So much a liberal politics nowadays is identity politics.And yet, it seems we've found the one thing liberals won't identify as.Liberals.All right, that's our show.
56:56I'll be at the State Theater in Minneapolis tomorrow nightat the New Jersey Performing Arts Center in Newark, July 8th,at the Mirage in Vegas, July 22nd, and 23rd.I want to thank Michael Schellenberger, Douglas Murray, and Eric Holder.Now go to YouTube and join us in overtime.Thank you, folks.Catch all new episodes of Real Time with Bill Maher every Friday night at 10.Or watch them anytime on HBO On Demand.
57:25For more information, log on to HBO.com.
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