Real Time with Bill Maher - Ep. #645: Gavin Newsom, Ari Melber, Andrew Sullivan

Episode Date: January 20, 2024

Bill’s guests are Gavin Newsom, Ari Melber, Andrew Sullivan (Originally aired 1/19/24) Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome to an HBO podcast from the HBO Late Night series Real Time with Bill Maugh. Thank you for coming. Thank you everybody. For 2024. I know.

Thank you. I missed you too. Great to be back. All right, please. We got such a big show. Please. I appreciate it. Thank you very much.

I know. It's exciting. It's exciting. at this. All right. Please. All right. Thank you very much. No, really. I appreciate that. I know why you're excited. We're back on the air. It's a new year. It's a leap year. Did you know that? It's a leap year. We get one extra day. I thought, I heard that day. I thought, oh, that's great. Then I remembered, oh, one more day of Trump versus Biden. Fuck, no. Thanks, but no, it's any. Yeah, I guess that that race is kind of over. Trump won big in Iowa. They had the office. Iowa caucus. They're on Martin Luther King Day. What better way to honor Martin Luther King than the white estate in the nation voting for a guy

who's going to take you back to the 1950s? Well, you saw Nikki Halley came in third. You saw what? She's a history buff, Nikki. She said this has never been a racist country. I mean, we can argue. Never, really.

I mean, this is someone who goes by Nikki. Because she had used her real name, no one in her party would vote for her. And the other Indian American in the race, Vivek Ramoswamy, he dropped out of the race and admitted he is Sasha Baron Cohen. So that's... I thought that. Right, he was the youngest candidate at 38.

Now it's going to be, you know, 82 versus 78. The oldest combined number of years we've ever had running. Although Trump was bragging this week, he said he feels like a 35-year-old. He said this. He owes it to his fitness routine. Really? He says every morning he does 100 brain farts.

Well, he does. This man has a new random obsession. Magnets. Did you see this? Magnets? He says, you know, magnets are in everything mechanical. Trump says they don't work if they're wet. He said he could personally cripple an aircraft carrier

with just a glass of water. And Putin said, me too. I poisoned the captain. But this is what the Internet is very upset about today. There's a picture of Trump holding his, he's waving after he gets out of court where he always is. And he's got red on his hands. Okay, now James Carville, who I love so much,

but I think this is right. He said it's syphilis. Okay, we don't know that it could be anything. We don't know that. But just to be safe today, Trump told Ivanka to get tested. Well, here's some good news for Biden. Consumer sentiment, you know what that is? Consumer sentiment, that's when we feel good about spending money

we don't have for stuff we don't need. That's way up because gas prices are going down and are down. Mortgage rates going down. Food is still expensive. But with Ozempic, who needs it? Hey, this is, have you noticed over vacation? A lot of people looking slim here in California. Yeah, we love it here.

Well, we do. Come on. The weather, I mean, have you seen the cold all across this country? Yeah, it's rough. I mean, Washington, D.C. Got a bunch of snow the other day. Oh, Lauren Bolbert was caught on tape trying to jerk off a snowman. And Marjorie Taylor Green, she actually loved.

She likes the coat. She gets to show off her coat made of 101 Dalmatian. And finally, little pop culture. I thought this was interesting. I don't know what it says about the times who live in. But Kanye West maybe removed all his teeth. Maybe didn't. I don't know. The Internet is arguing about that. But he put this in a... He wanted to look like jaws in the Bond movies. A titanium grill. So it's just he has just... That's what he looks like. like now. I think this shows if you pick on Jews enough, you're going to get bad advice from a dentive.

We've got a great show. We have Andrew Sullivan and Ari Melver, but first up, he's our governor. Gavin Newsom is over here. See? Yes. Thank you. Look at that.

See? Unbelievable. Better than when I was recalled. It's been too long. It has been a while. Since you've been here, we missed you, they missed you. This is a California show. Look at this.

A lot of abuse. By the way, thank you. I'm grateful. I'm grateful. I was always a California show when most of the shows are in New York, right? Always a booster. Okay. Always.

I was a lieutenant governor and you had me on. I mean, who's a lieutenant governor's on? It's amazing. And I said then you're going to run for president one day, and we know it's not this year. I'm not going to even go there. No, I'm glad we're not going to. No. Okay.

Here's the first thing I want to ask you. Because this is one of our big industries. Yes, sir. All right. All right. I'm sitting up. I'm looking forward to this. What?

I'm just asking. I'm used to Hannity, so I mean, I got to lean forward. Okay. And I think it's great you talk to Hannity. I appreciate it. Okay. So the strike. We were out for five months.

And during that, I was asking, why doesn't the governor get more involved? And maybe I just don't know how what works? Exactly. Exactly. No, in terms of just, I mean, not in terms of the public facing in that respect. Well, it turns of the politicians do jawboning. Certainly presidents do it.

Why couldn't the governor say, this is an important industry in our state, one of our most important. You knuckleheads are going to find a number that you agree on at some point. It always happens. Instead of putting these people out of work for all these months and all the suffering and heartache, can we just get it done today? Well, we did all of that except the knucklehead part. was expressed on multiple occasions down here on many, many different occasions.

But I don't remember you ever meeting with them personally. Personally, meeting with both sides. Absolutely. Not only meeting with both sides, meeting with individuals, phone calls, text messages, emails, working behind the scenes in the national groups, state groups.

So it's all part of the art of the possible in the deal in the context of not showing your cards and showing a bias up front so you can be constructive behind the scenes when both parties call you when you're needed. And as a governor, I'm dealing with strikes all across the state, school board strikes, dealing with bargaining units right now in the state of California, and obviously the private sector as well.

So, again, sometimes you're more public. Sometimes it's done behind the scenes. So, one of my, you know, again, always been a California booster, but there are things that are frustrating about the state. One of the things is I feel like unforced errors. and one of them is we're so over-regulated. I want to permit San Francisco housing. A couple of years ago, they only built like 2,000 units.

We have a housing shortage. 87 permits needed to begin development. 15 from the Planning Commission. 26 from Public Utilities Commission. 19 from the Department of Building Inspections. 17 from Public Works. 10 more permits related to public spaces. You remember the problem I had hooking up my...

Solar. Yes. Indeed. Yes. It was mentioned once or twice on the show. Yes, it was. Yes. Why can't, wouldn't this even just be a good political issue? Cut red tape? You're not going to offend the... But I've been suing these cities. I sued Huntington Beach because they're out of compliance on their housing element. We threatened to sue San Francisco. They just came in compliance. I created a new housing accountability unit to do exactly what you suggest we should be doing. It's a completely new day. We've been doing this aggressive. We have three other cities in our sites as we speak and talk about convening. I convene 46 jurisdictions on this subject. And we've also passed 32 reform bills, secret reform bills, since I've been governor just the last four and a half years. So I couldn't agree with you more.

And we're punching hard to address these issues and address the original Senate in California, which is affordability, supply demand and balance in terms of housing, and getting housing construction moving in the state of California. So top priority and absolutely share that. Well, okay. Great. I've got to say. And by the way, I hate to even bring this up. I remember you were absolutely right that. $1.7 million bathroom in San Francisco? Toilet.

A toilet. Yes. $1.7 million to taxpayer dollars. For one toilet. An outdoor toilet. It was. Yeah, an outdoor toilet. And so I saw screaming headlines all across the country, but none, that next day, when we killed that project. and we forced them to come back to us.

But I get your point. The point is this happens too often. But we're policing those things and we're addressing those concerns and we're going back and we're... And I just, my frustration with this state, there's sort of a weaponization of grievance, which I completely understand.

And there's a propensity to focus on what's wrong, not what's right. And those screaming headlines in terms of the attacks and the shots, they go around the world, but the solutions and strategies to address them in the pivots often. You've got to get a better publicist.

I agree. I'm glad to be on the show, Bill. Okay, yeah. Well, I always said you make a great case. You know, I saw you debating DeSantis. I said, you know, I'm trying to get this guy to run for president for a long time. He looks like he'd be very good at it. What I liked with that also is you're kind of mean, and we need that.

When you need to do, not over the top. But I was on, I appreciate that. I was on KBLA the other day, yesterday with my friend Tava Smiley. I'm an investor and a supporter of that station. And he said, who do he went through in a president? I mentioned, I think, you'd be good at the job. Not this year, we know. No, I know.

But he said, I don't think he could win. I don't think he could win. He's too progressive coming from this state and when he's done in this state to win in any southern state, any red state. I disagreed, but this is a progressive African-American-owned station. And I'm sure they like you,

But he doesn't think you can win. What do you say to that if you could win the... Look at the swing stage. There's only eight of them. Right. Well, I mean, California is an interesting case study, isn't it? It's the size of 21 state populations combined. Yeah.

Two-thirds of state is very deeply read. We don't need to be lectured on rural politics or border issues. I mean, in so many ways, these are familiar issues, and those issues of the heartland of the United States are very much apart and parcel of the work we're doing in this state. But look, I understand this notion that you're from the coast, you don't understand those things. You can't talk the language.

You're not able to communicate. You're not able to actually encourage and find that to come around. No, it's stuff like there's a new law in this. I think we have way too many regulations and laws as we've talked about. And this one, I think, says if you're a department store with over 500 employees, you have to have a gender neutral toy department. Stuff like that. Yeah, I get it.

So do you think that's silly? You think that's a silly thing than that? What was interesting? We're too much government, too much government there. Look, that's an interesting one because the apartment stores came to us supporting that. And they were ones making a case for that. They were making us, they're already moving in that direction. Why did you make a law about them?

Well, they, but they supported the legislation. It wasn't legislation that was enacted, that was initiated from my office, but it was legislation that came up with interesting support from the industry itself. But I understand how that's exploiting. Good people can disagree. But that's not something we woke up and said, This is a top priority for the state. When we know the top priority,

there's homelessness, housing, the issues of crime, quality of life, and issues related to regulation and taxes, which are all top of mind. But I get how those things are weapon. All right. So, why I got you here

because I live here and I'm not going anywhere. So I just want to make this a better state like everybody else. And good job this year making it rain. You're welcome. That was...

That was... Yeah. That was my legislative priority. It was looking bad there for a while, and we still don't have enough water in the Colorado River and all this stuff. And then whenever I read, 80% of the water goes to agriculture.

Ammons. No one ever asked you about almonds? Oh, I'm going to ask you about almonds. We grow a boatload of almonds here. I'm well aware. You know how much water it takes? Many gallons. 1,900 gallons to grow a pound of almonds.

Come on, man. Take on big almond Take on big almond I mean It's not like we don't have the water No But you're right about it It's not that we don't have the water

That said, you know The last couple years we're tough I mean it's but it's also where the water's falling And we're not capturing it And we're not capturing in those extreme years With these atmospheric rivers Wets are getting a lot wetter Dries dry or hot's getting a lot hotter

And so we've got to modernize our conveyance system We've got to modernize our storage Not just above ground but below ground And so that's a big part of our focus and frame, including desalization plants. We have 20 projects just on desal that we're working on today. So we've been, we put out a detailed water strategy that includes, by the way, getting that Delta Conveillance project back up and operational and includes the first above ground off stream storage facility and half a century in the state, which, by the way, is being aided by a regulatory

package I pushed forward to reduce red tape in the state of California and address the permitting Quagmire's that you rightfully pointed out. Say you're... You're good at this. I'm telling you. You're good at this job. Okay. I feel like the last couple of years you've like purposely picked this fight with the red states. I mean, the dissent...

But I don't want to live in the Civil War Cup. I agree with that. You know what? But you seem like you purposely want to set up this dichotomy between, oh, this is a blue state and that's a red state. And I don't want to live in that country. I love that. I like Florida. I'm with you. And by the way, I like Florida as well. I like all these states.

I completely agree that. I don't want to have a state of mind that's a constant fight or flight. We've gone through so much. We've been polarized and traumatized. It's been a tough five, six years. Cross the globe, not just in this country. That said, I'm not going to sit back and watch. You've made the point just a moment ago in your monologue.

You've got folks out there trying to bring us back to a pre-1960s world. America in reverse, rolling back voting rights, LGBTQ rights, women's rights, not just access to abortion, but contraception. I mean, it's a profound and consequential moment, and you could sit by and say, well, I really want to get along, as these guys are rolling back the clock, or you can stand tall and assert yourself. And the reason I started to go into those red states, the reason I started take on to Santis, and the reason I started doing ads in these red states, is I didn't feel my party was doing

enough. It was CRT one year. And then it's ESG and it's DEI, anything with three letters. These guys keep coming. And they're shape-shifting. And they're, and they're trauma. But it's true, right? And so, and I just thought there was a little timidity in our party.

And I thought we need to call this stuff out. These guys are being on a banning binge across this country. You want to talk about cancel culture. Look at the Republican Party. Ask Bud Light, Target, Disney. That's just the private sector. Banning speech, not just in the classroom, but in the boardroom as it relates to issues of race. Look what they've done.

3,362 books just last year they're banning. This is a serious and consequential moment. It's the cultural purge that's going on in this country. And so I just felt like we needed to call that out as Democrats and put them on the defensive since we're consistently on our heels as a Democratic Party, even though I think the facts bear out our case significantly better than the case on the other side. But again, Bill, I say all that with love in my heart. With love in my heart.

And I mean that. I mean, I don't talk down to people. I don't want to talk past people. People. Everyone wants to be respected, connected, and protected. And we all want to be loved and need to be loved. I'm with you on all that. At the same time, man, when you're going after the LGBT community and talking down to people and humiliating folks, you're threatening to sue the Special Olympians, when you're going after

the black community and trying to rewrite history and saying slavery somehow with some workforce development program, damn it, we have to call that stuff off my high horse. Can you teach that speech to Biden? Thank you very much. I know you're a busy man. I really appreciate you doing this. Let's make it so long next time. Gavin Newsom.

Thank you, sir. We'll see what's next for him. All right, let's meet our panel. Hey. All right, he is MSNBC's chief legal correspondent, the host of the beat with Ari Melvor, which airs every weekday at 6 o'clock. Ari Melvers are here.

And he writes the weekly dish newsletter and is the author of the essay collection out on the limb. Andrew Sullivan, I think, always our return. The turning champion, I think, our most frequent guest. Are you not? Yes, I think you hold that title, Andrew.

All right, gentlemen. So, as we were talking there, it's going to be Biden and Trump. I think when we came back after the strike in September, we were very much on the same page trying to get Biden to maybe step aside, and that didn't work. And so here we are. The primaries have started. It's going to be him.

It's going to be Trump. So the question turns to for the people, and we don't have ideological diversity about Donald Trump on this panel. None of us want to see Donald Trump, and lots of people feel that way. So they've gone to the courts. Colorado is the first. Washington State yesterday said Trump can stay on the ballot, but they are going to the court saying under the Section 3 of the 14th Amendment, which may not be on the tip of everyone's mind. I was a little foggy on it, but it says,

Anyone involved in insurrection or rebellion cannot run for president. That is what they're throwing against Donald Trump. And it's interesting. Okay. So let me get you guys on this. First, the question of, like, was it an insurrection or rebellion? Now, I think the second he did not concede the election, broadly, that's an insurrection. But they're talking about genuine.

Okay. Let's not make it a rally. So first of all, is there an actual legal case? You could be good on this. I think you have a law degree. It's true. And then even if there is, is it not social suicide to attempt it? There's not a good legal case of precedent to kick a presidential candidate off the ballot

absent a very serious conviction. And while there's overwhelming evidence that Trump tried to overthrow the incoming president-elects government, he hasn't been tried yet. And if he's tried, he still hasn't been charged with. insurrection, which actually is a federal statute. So some Supreme Court cases are close, and you wait on them, this one, almost overwhelmingly obvious that the court will keep Trump on the ballot, as legally it should. Your second question is, what are we doing here? And is it a good idea to try to stop people from facing elections by finding a judge somewhere in some

state to just say they committed insurrection? I think it's a bad idea, and I don't think it would work well. It's a very strange look to say we are fighting for democracy and therefore we will not let you vote for the person you might want to vote for. It's completely contradictory. Secondly, the way you defeat Trump is the way you always could have defeated Trump, which is by going on the issues that he wins voters on. Things like immigration, things like inflation, things like inflation, things like the sense that there is no control over the global economy in which people are suffering and losing their jobs and have no idea what the future is.

That is how you beat Trump. They keep throwing lawsuits. The first thing they tried was this Russia stuff as a way to get out of Trump free card. Let's find some gimmick, some Deiasex machina that can get rid of him. Let's try the Russia hoax. Let's try this impeachment. Let's try that. Let's try and put him on a legal suit about paying off hush money to a porn star that we've got down to the fraud allegations in New York City.

people are noticing this and what they're saying is one side seems to want to stop us having the choice we want, the other side doesn't. And that is a terrible way for the Democrats to the production side. I don't know. I mean, you're giving the voters maybe more credit

than they should get when you say go by the issues. I don't know if people go by the issues. I was reading this today in the paper. One in three people in this country will not accept the results.

One in three will accept the results of the election. That's on both sides. A quarter of the people have no confidence that we have free and fair elections. Biden voters, one in three, not confident. Of course, 70% of Trump voters will only accept a Trump victory. 46% of Biden voters

will only view his victory as legitimate. Why even have an election? I mean, given numbers like this, you really think it's about issues it is why you have an election. The only way a country that's divided can ever resolve its questions is to have an election with the candidates that both party support, with no constraints

and have us actually decide who's going to be present. That's what we do it. That's what a democracy is. There's no way around that. There's no legal suit to get rid of that. And the attempt to disqualify him somehow on a technicality, It's a little more than a technicality. Is it not, am I wrong about this?

Well, here's what I think. If he is convicted of a coup, which is what he's facing a trial for in D.C. in the Jack Smith case, then voters have to factor that in. Because if you vote for someone who, by a jury of their peers in the justice system, is a convicted coup leader, that might be the last vote you ever cast. So your coup leader? Yes.

I don't know if you saw the instruction. It was on television and everything. You're talking about the Georgia. case. No, I'm not talking about George. Okay. I'm talking about the federal case, which again, I'll go out of my way to say he's presumed innocent and there's going to be a trial, but yes, these issues aren't so cleanly cleaved because if he's convicted of trying to steal the election, voters have to look at that, right? Because you might not be voting again if you put that person in power. I think the problem is that January 6th is this shiny object that distracts people,

because it's murky. He did say on that day, protest peacefully and pay, triadically. All they have to do is present that in court and say, what are you talking about a coup? Again, the coup was from the beginning to this day, not conceding the election. That is the crime. That is the crime, because that puts everything else in motion where we have this state where people don't accept elections anymore. So I don't think that's a technicality, Andrew. No, it's a statement that he made, which is a despicable statement. he made statements like that before the previous election. He's actually denied that almost any election that he didn't agree with was done fairly. So the question is, does a lunatic like this?

And I agree with you. He's a crazy person. He's a despicable person. He's a dangerous person. I do not want him anywhere. But you're not going to defeat him this way. That may be the case. But I'm just saying it's a little more than a technicality.

Yeah, it's more than technicality. I think it sounds like agreement on the ballot disqualification, and there's no precedent for it. So I don't expect the Supreme Court to allow it. I don't think pursuing things without any historical foundation is a good idea in law. But as for what he did, it was a lot more than statements. There was a multi-prong plot, at least six plots. That's why so many of his aides are convicted. They are convicted in multiple states.

His lawyers need lawyers, and many of them have pled out. Giuliani is bankrupt and facing criminal charges. Trump may ultimately be acquitted. We have to support the rule of law, I think. But they tried to have voter fraud lies and smearing people to get a pretext to steal the race at the state level, to have the states overturn the vote, to have Congress deny the certification. There was a violent insurrection that his people were aware of whether he planned it. We don't know, and the case may help resolve that.

I would leave that one out of it. So you can even leave that out, and you have these multiple plots. He also wanted... He also wanted the Pentagon to seize voting machines, and his aides stopped him. So the fact that you're really bad at robbing banks doesn't mean we want you and have our money. Yeah. We have... Right. Everyone has seen, everyone has seen this man does not respect democratic norms. Everyone saw him try and get out of losing the last election.

They know this already. There's no way you can better prove it. The task then is for the democracy to say, are we going to vote this person back in or not? And if they do, that is what we have to accept. That is what democracy means. Okay. So Roger Stone, one of his favorites.

This is amazing that it was not a big story. I would think it would be media. I reported it. There's tape. He's talking about killing people for Trump. I'm not saying with Trump's approval, but he says, it's time to do it. Let's go find Swalwell.

That's Congressman Swalwell. It's time to do it. Then we'll see how brave the rest of them are. It's either Swaller or Nadler has to die before the election. Let's go find Swalwell and get this over with. That's not right. is it? I mean, I feel like we're spinning out of control a little here with stuff like... I think what Trump

set in motion and what the divisions of the country has done and what the Democrats have done the last four years, which has responded to Trump by going even further to the left, means that we are losing the legitimacy of the system. And that is the critical thing. When you lose that core legitimacy, you lose your democracy. That's where we're really going to lose our democracy. Because we don't believe in it anymore. And you can see that the result of that,

the way this works, is you start disbelieving in all the institutions and then you say, who do I want? You want a strong man. You want someone to come in and cut all the knots. This is the classic case of how you lose a democracy. And he's almost certainly going to be there. He's going to win this election.

Almost certainly. I think you make fair points, Andrew, but you sound a little bit both sidesy. I don't know if that's on purpose or not. Well, then you've just been complimented. Thank you. In your mind. But there's absolutely problems with the Democratic Party and the over-year action to Trump. We just spoke about the ballot case and it's thinness,

and we cover that all the time on the news. But there's not equivalence here on the problems that you just referred to. There's not equivalence on political violence. There's not equivalence on responding to court cases. Bush v. Gore was very controversial, but there was no violent response, and there was not any mainstream response from Democrats

about overthrowing the certification. Al Gore actually showed up on Jan 6. Remember, it was that date, and certified. So there isn't a both-sides-ism to this decay, and what Trump does, and I agree at times, he may draw his opponents into messy, dumb feuds, but he is the one banking on a cynicism, an attack on democracy, and a complete rejection of the policy, democracy that you want, because they didn't even have a platform. So he's saying it's just me.

You don't even know what I'm going to do. Just vote for me, no platform, and you've got a whole Republican Party that's basically codifying that. You know what it would be good at MSNBC is if you actually did think about both sides and weighed the arguments and make constructive arguments against that side while respecting them? You don't do that. It's propaganda all the time. What you just said described? What you just said just described my show.

It's like I had a Trump lawyer on this week. I've had Steve Bannon on my show. I've had Trump Whitehouse officials. I watch MSNBC. Right. So I'm describing a goal that I'm achieving, I take that as a compliment. Well, in your mind. Let's be nice.

It's the first show of the year. Let's not tear each other's face off. We look. Hey, Bill. Face Ripper Monkey? I mean... Bill? We learned...

We learned our media criticism from you, Dad. All right. So, Dad, fuck you. You're not looking like that. Anyway, it is the new year. And I see a lot of celebrities are making their resolutions there. I see Megan Markle is going to stop swearing. I didn't know this was a little.

problem before. I never heard her swear, but okay. And Blake Shelton, he's going to stop drinking so much. But these are not the only celebrities who have made resolutions. Would you like to hear some of the... I knew you would. I knew you would.

Kanye West resolved that this is the year he finally quits eating lead paint. Brittany Spears resolved to only juggle safe knives this year. Mitt Romney says he's going to quit fentanyl. Bad bunny

resolved to be a good bunny. The Rock's resolution. Start working out less. Oh, Madonna has resolved to recycle. Old faces. Mickey Haley resolved to buy a history book and find out what exactly was so racist about slavery. And Elon Musk resolved to find a way to implement

Tesla Tech into Twitter so it can drive itself into the ground. Elon, we're just kidding you. So, what did you make of that Nikki Healy comment? I mean, it's one thing to argue, and you write eloquently about it, I think, race in America, 2024. I say very often, let's

live in the year we're living in. Things have changed a lot. It's always a difficult argument to make, because if you acknowledge any progress, the left is like, what are you saying? We're finished? No, we're not saying that. We're saying, you know, there's a problem in the body, politic, let's use the blood work from this year, not 1990.

Okay. But I don't understand a politician in 2024. I understand apologism saying racism very different, saying we never have racism. And she's supposed to be the bright one? I don't... This country, whether... It's just a fact.

It was built around slavery. Its racism has been... deeply embedded in it. Yes. But it's not entirely defined by that, and it's partly defined by the battle against it, by the fact that Americans sacrifice their lives to end slavery. Hundreds of thousands of them lost their lives.

The fact that blacks and whites and all sorts of races have managed to make things so much better. And the idea that you have to somehow exonerate everything in the past in order to defend the conservative point of view is insane. And as someone who's conservative, I'm glad it's 2024. And I think the kind of humane protections that we have now, for people like me, for transgender people, for racial minorities are terrific. I think that people are overdoing things right now

and attempting to push things so far that they're beginning to discriminate against whites, Asians, Jews, and all the rest of it, in favor of others in a way that actually violates the spirit of the civil rights movement. So that I think is worth debating. But that we have a racist pass, that we need to overcome that, that's not debatable at all.

And this week of Polk, affirmative action which the Supreme Court got rid of, okay, most Americans think that was good. Most Americans say, consider race when admitting people to colleges. Let's stop doing it. We don't need to do that anymore. A healthy majority of Hispanics agreed with that,

and a slight majority of African Americans agreed with that. So a majority of all, Americans agreed with that. It seems like the only people are still arguing for it, you know, mostly are the social justice warriors. And I'm wondering sometimes if they care more about the worrying than the issue itself. I'll do, I'll do hangly in affirmative action. I think you spoke eloquently about this battle in this American process. For her, we see that in a Republican primary, it's a litmus test to be able to lie through your teeth about history. So that could be about racism, slavery, Jim Crow,

or it could be about January 6th, which is recent history. The Speaker of the House said he wants to shield the faces of people who broke into the Capitol. So that means you have to either be for that or lying about what they did. And so I think that's a big problem for them. Affirmative Action has had a rocky road, and the Supreme Court has now limited it, so it's not even all that available. But the way that we pick the leadership of the country from the private to the public sector is not equal,

and we haven't figured that all out. So if you look at that actual process, it doesn't work well. I brought some numbers because I know you like facts. I do. 2009. Why do you say that like,

like it's a joke? Like I'm Glenn Beck or something. I meant it, no, I met it more like... I know you like facts. I meant it more like, I want you to feel seen because you and I like facts.

Okay, all right. Great. Because I do. I love facts. So in 2009, that's the first time America ever had a black woman CEO in any Fortune 50 company. 1987, first time you had a black male. One each. Do you know how many black male CEOs that are on the Fortune 50 today? Still one. How many black women? Still one. Now, gender, which I think you go half the population in business or college or wherever. in 2010,

94% of the Fortune 50 CEOs, 94% were men. Now, today, 2023, have we fixed this all? Is the process working? Is it a meritocracy? Anyone want to guess how many are men today, Fortune 50 CEOs? 90%. So, either you look at that and say, it's working perfectly, right?

Never seen a better process. Or you ask, and this is what civil rights lawyers are supposed to do. They're not supposed to just, have a pre-cooked narrative. But when something is that shifted, you say, is this process not fair? Is there something going on? And you can deal with that with diversity recruitment.

Tim Cook was the first gay CEO in the Fortune 50. And that was in 2011. And that number is still around two out of 50. So if you look at that and you say, is it only that 10% of women can do this job, or is there something broken here? I think that's a really fair question. I mean, yeah.

There are countless reasons, a very complicated reasons, why certain things end up in certain ways. Racism is part of it, discrimination is part of it, but it's just a part of it. Also, there's a question of different in abilities, difference in cultures,

difference in upbringing, whole things can lead into inequalities at the very top. Does 90% male sound right, though? Does that sound like it's working right? I honestly don't obsess about the gender or race or sexual orientation of people, as they can do the job.

job, I'm in favor of them doing the job. I believe, believe it or not, in merit. I believe in being able to do a job regardless of your identity as opposed to being hired because of your identity. And when that happens, when that latter happens, when you fear you're being promoted because you're a gay person or you're a trans person or a black person, you rob people of the pride of ownership, of their own success. You create this doubt, this cloud of doubt, over everybody of a certain race which they don't deserve to be under because you've rigged the system from the get-go

and people know it's been rigged. So, may I? I just want to say one thing about your... I mean, I'm sure you're right and your facts are right about CEOs. I happen to know, like, board, like corporate boards, it's much different, at least with the women,

because I looked it up after I saw Barbie. No, really, because I called... Well, you didn't look at colleges. Wait, wait. He's going to college, which is the key thing for future advancement, and see, women are almost 60% now. And in fact, this does take time. It does take time.

Societies don't change overnight. But if you rely upon the principle of merit and not on the process of racism, which is what DEI is, it is defining people by their race, and promoting them on that basis alone. Let's tell people what DEI is who may not know those letters.

Diversity. Well, it's almost... I don't use him just his own. Did you notice that? I... He's figuring it out. I was interested in that. Yes.

They realized that this... DEI stands for diversity, equity, and inclusion. Like the word woke, started out as a noble aspiration, morphed into something else. I mean, I was reading today, Johns Hopkins, I think they took this back, but their DEI department had a list of privileged identities, white, able, hetero, male, middle-aged,

Okay. Christians speak English. I mean, all these things, certainly traditionally in America, it was good to be. Again, let's live in the year we're living in. That is not always the case today. And I think that's why this is under fire. And DEI, I mean, some of these schools, I think the bigger problem is that that is part of administrations in schools, as opposed to the actual people who teach, who are very far left wing also.

there's very little diversity of thought. They love the idea of diversity. As long as you will agree with me. As long as you agree, right. No, it's like, let's have... May I reply to Andrew? Yeah, I wouldn't stand a chance on any of these college campuses.

I've been disinfited now for years. Why? Because I have ideas they want to suppress. People they want to smear. People they want to reach out. And Harvard was one of the worst of those universities. Well, let me... Let me...

Because... DEI... Let me just... DeI is not. not about opening up opportunities. It's about systemically discriminating on the basis of race and sex. So what we heard from you is a very traditionally conservative critique of diversity recruitment, right, or any affirmative action. Liberal, I think. It's a liberal defense of individual rights.

What you said is a common critique of the program, and it imagines that recruiting for diversity is at odds with merit. And that is very dicey. So I go back to the numbers. not the words. Either you think that only 10% of women are qualified to lead these companies and this is a obviously just result and can continue forever or you think there's something broken here. I'm not saying

there's only one way to fix it, but Andrew, when you have competitive... Let me finish. I let you finish. Remember that? When you take these jobs that are highly competitive, there are hundreds of qualified applicants. And so trying to look at whether among the qualified applicants you have diversity of leadership, which is something the

military filed a brief for affirmative action, because they said, we keep an eye on that. You have to be able to do the job. We're the darn military. But we want to make sure we have as diverse a leadership corps as possible. The Supreme Court's made that harder to do, but that's necessary. And if you automatically assume that's at odds with merit, then you should look

around and who's at your table, because that's not a place you want to be sitting. Okay. I just want to see you. I'm a mayor. If it was entirely about merit, Harvard wouldn't have to do anything.

They just blind. Because you're assuming that... Pick the people who did the best. If what you just said is true, then you're assuming that the current system works completely on merit. And there's a lot of reasons that it doesn't. It certainly was better than actually the Harvard, which is found guilty,

of openly discriminating against Asians deliberately. Where the test scores... This is what we know. The test scores of African-American applicants are way lower. But why do you assume that this... Why do you assume the current system has merit perfectly figured out when the history of political, financial representation

in this country in America has not been meridates. Because we have civil rights laws since the 60s, because we've made incredible progress through the free society, through the free market, through liberal principles, in people becoming much more able and

prominence in whole various fields. We should not fuck it up now by imposing on these rigid quotas, attempting to make everything perfect, and at the same time, toxifying our discourse, making people really angry. The one thing we know about

DEI sessions, DEI programs, is that they make people more racist. We've seen study after studies showing us, because if you obsess about people's race, I don't feel obsessed. I don't feel obsessed.

I'll be quick. And they did not defend the Jews. I gave you I'll get it. The DEI works one way. Let's get into that. Do you do that? I get a G. Let's get into that, but I gave you numbers.

Quotas have been illegal since 1978 in the Bakke decision. Quotas are illegal in America, so we're not talking about quotas. Hold on a minute. You have the New York Times publishing the percentage of its staffing, that is this race, that race, this gender, that range. And then they have goals for where they want to get. Are you telling me that's all quotas? No, a quota is a word.

They are deliberately engineering their word for us. Can I respond? Can I respond? A quota is a word and has a legal definition, and it means setting aside and having limits. For example, the university system used to have limits for Jews. They had a quota of how many, and it was a cap. You can have any allotment that has a minimum or a maximum is called a quota, and it was ruled illegal in 1978, and it's not used anymore.

Well, obviously what we mean is deliberately attempting to change the composition of your workboards according to race or sex, regardless of the merit of the people involved. Can I just say one more thing about Barbie? Because you bring this whole thing up, and then I've got to go. I know. I'm sure you're right about the CEOs, and we should do something about that. But I went to see Barbie, and the big thing in the movie is she runs into the boardroom of Mattel, her creators, and it's all men, because it's a patriarchy year in 2023. All men, the board, 12 men. Well, I went home, I googled it, because it's a real Mattel company. It's half and half.

I'm just saying, and then I looked up. The last year they had available info in 2021. What percentage of new women were, you know, what boards were made of women? 46%. So not quite half and half on the board. CEO, a lot of work to do. Boards different, at least, with women.

Thank you guys. We've got to go to New Rule. Okay. New Rule, True Crime, TV shows don't need to tell us that the reenactments are reenactments. We get it. Nobody's thinking, hey, how come the cameraman? didn't stop the killer.

But the Emmys should add an award for best reenactment acting. The nominees are Wendy Davis as woman lying in a pool of blood. Nancy Carp as wrapped up corpse

dragged from house. Martin Benet as axe-wielding shadowy figure. And Ben Thomas is out of focus, first responder behind crime scene tape. No, we'll stop acting surprise that Oscar Meyer is having trouble

hiring drivers for their Wiener Mobile. The pay is low, the hours are long, and the job sounds too much like a euphemism. Oh yeah, that guy, he drives a weiner mobile, if you know what I mean. New World, now that funny billboards like Santa sees you when you're speeding

and buckle up, windshield's hurt, are about, those are real, are about to be banned by the U.S. Federal Highway Administration because they're distracting. somebody used to tell me why it's still okay to have long paragraphs of small writing and pictures of big tits up there and God yelling at me I'm just saying if a little joke is too distracting

when you're driving what about this New Orleans must change their protocol for when a single passenger is acting erratically it happens too often and there's no reason for everyone to be inconvenience from now on instead of turning the plane around the flight attendants have to hand the unruly passenger a parachute and then and then push him out that hole where the door used to be

uh new rule now that luxury design company ermes is selling this paper envelope for 125 dollars let me be the first to say thanks i'll send an email really a hundred and twenty five bucks for an envelope for that kind of money it better lick me And finally, new rule for 2024. America has to go back on its meds.

You know, over the holidays, I saw a lot of people, and I asked them all the same two questions. One, have you seen Woody Harrelson? He's my ride. And two, if I said, let's make 2024 the year of blank, what would you say? I was surprised. They all said the same thing. Sanity.

Let's make this the year. of sanity. Everybody thinks we've gone bonkers. And a lot of it is because the far ends on both left and right have gotten way too much attention. Which begs the question,

how do you suck all the oxygen out of the room and still not get any to your brain? I feel like it wasn't that long ago when you could watch cable news for a day and not get the impression that this whole place was totally bat-shit. That simply was not America. Florida, yes, but not America.

So let's examine what makes sane people feel this way. Sane people who are, after all, still the vast majority and who are the ones who I assume just voted me, the most trusted man in America. That is a real headline. Thank you. Just call me Billy Kronkite. Anyway, what does strike a sane person as crazy?

I don't know. If you can ask me, I would start with the fact that I still occasionally see someone driving a lawn with a mask on. Who do they think they're going to get it from? The lady in the next car putting on her makeup. Or maybe I would say it's the continuing debt-sealing debate. Every time a Democrat is president, the Republicans threaten to tank the world economy

by forcing us to take a vote on whether to pay back the money we already spent. Know what the country does this. It's like eating at a rest. and then taking a vote on whether to dine in Dash. And whoever the Republicans make Speaker of the House, if he doesn't vote for Dash, which he really can't do in the job they just gave him, they try to get rid of him. Congress isn't a deliberative body anymore.

It's a rave without a permit in a burning paint warehouse. Insane. But probably the first thing on my and most people's list of insanity, is that this guy is going to be president again. It feels surreal that we're in court every day trying to prove Trump wanted to overturn the election while he's on the campaign trail every day telling everyone they should have overturned the election.

It also strikes normal people as insane that Trump fans are perfectly okay with the fact that he was recently asked if he wanted to be a dictator, and he did not say no. Neither did his lawyer say no. When a judge asked him, could a president who was not impeached? Order Sealed Team 6 to assassinate a political rival.

The lawyer's answer was, a qualified yes. Okay, these are not brain teasers. Neither should it have been difficult when presidents of elite colleges were asked if it's okay to call for the genocide of Jews, and they couldn't just say, fuck no. Can anybody just say fuck no anymore? Does anybody even know who to root for anymore? A store manager at Lulu Lemon tried to stop some shoplifters last year, and the CEO fired her, fired the person trying to stop robbers from robbing his store.

That's crazy. But this is crazy, too. If you rob a store, you can fully expect to be shot as you are leaving that store. Shot! Really? We can't come to some sort of middle ground. around on this. On any issue?

Socially liberal, but not stupid, woke, fiscally sane, but not cruel. Is this really that hard? Trans people should be respected and protected, but no penises in women's prisons maybe. Legalized pop, but maybe stop giving

drugs to hard drug addicts. Nikki Haley says America's never been racist, and social justice warriors say there's been no progress since Amos and Andy. A terror organization in the Middle East that treats women like slaves invaded Israel last October and shot hundreds of young people at a music festival in the desert, and now America's streets are full of parades in support of the shooters, led by the exact kind of people who would be

at a music festival in the desert. That's the literal standard for involuntary commitment, when you're a danger to yourself. I mean, the NRA are bad, but after a school shooting, they don't march against schools. Thank you, one guy. The far left's new crush is the Houthis. Up until a week ago, everyone on TikTok thought a Houthi was what you get when someone hit your elbow.

Wow. You gave me a Houthi. And the Houthi's slogan is, God is great, death to the U.S., death to Israel, curse the Jews, and victory for Islam. Like, comment, and subscribe. So naturally, when the college kids heard that slogan, they said,

please stop, you had me a death to the U.S. Insane. Insane that we're cheering for the terrorists now. It's also insane to think that this would ever come out well. And it's also insane to feel that it's important to try and prove that Taylor Swift is gay, which apparently is what the support. supposedly most esteemed newspaper in America feels is very important to do. That's so insane. I don't even get it.

If Taylor Swift is gay, what? This is somehow a better country? The far left now insists men can have babies if they just concentrate hard and don't listen to the haters. Does that make us a better country? No. And neither does persecuting a pregnant woman who wants to get a... an abortion for a fetus doctors say will not survive. Could everyone just stop being nutty, completely nutty for five fucking

minutes? The battle for the soul of this country isn't right or left. It's normal versus crazy. All right, thank you very much. Up their show. I'll be at the MGM Grand in Vegas February 16 and 17 at the Hobby Center in Houston, Texas March 2nd, and the Plaza in El Paso

March 3rd. I want to thank Ari Mover, Andrew Sullivan, and Governor Gavinous. And now go watch overtime on See you at 11.30 or catch it Saturday morning on YouTube. Thank you, folks. Watch all new episodes of real time with Bill Maher every Friday night at 10. Or watch them anytime on HBO on demand. For more information, log on to HBO.com.

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