Red Scare - Call Him Brandon w/ Zoe Kestan

Episode Date: December 13, 2024

Zoe Kestan, formerly known as Weedslut420, returns to the pod to discuss her relationship with Hunter Biden and her recent New York Times profile. Shop Zoe's brand here!

It's weird to give yourself like a stage name. Entrepreneur, designer. Yeah, designer. I don't know. I'm not an entrepreneur. I never ended up being one. Social media star and it girl. Oh, my gosh.

Oh, my gosh. That was his. Those were his words. No, of course. I knew those were his words. There's no way she came up to it Well, we're back we're back welcome back we have a return guest today. Hey Miss Zoe Kastin formerly known as weed slut 420 welcome back to Red Square

Thank you. You don't go by weed slut anymore at all. No, I mean my friends call me that. Yeah. Yeah. It's still your Twitter handle. Yeah, it's just like a funny name and it's kind of uncomfortable for people to say sometimes. Yeah. It's like, yeah, it's I'd rather I feel like now just I mean it is partially me, but I am also just Zoe. Of course. Yeah. Yeah, when you came on the show in 2019, you were promoting a line of lingerie and weed smoking paraphernalia under the Weed Slut 420 brand. Yeah. But I still have some where. Yeah, it's all in my apartment. Yeah. It's good stuff. I know I like I was so looking forward to that Neon bra, yeah, but actually like when you came over today, I had this thought it was like wow, she sounds so different

because that we was talking to Eli about like The was talking to Eli about like the transportation museum in Brooklyn and like the model house near Whole Foods. And I was talking about like the New York City history podcast. Oh, you should have your own podcast where you talk about like New York City, like history and historic preservation. It's a new thing for me. But then I was like, oh, because the last time we did this, we were all so high. Yeah. Yeah. I actually can't remember very much what we talked about. I just know I was like,

and here's this piece, and here's this product. And you guys were like, oh, it's so pretty. Nobody else knows what it looks like. I thought it was a good episode. Yeah. Yeah. I was really hanging out. Yeah. Yeah Wherever the conversation led. So Zoe you're the subject of a New York Times profile. Yeah. You're in the news. Yeah. I decided a couple months ago to just say fuck it and talk to Joe about... And he approached you. Yeah, I was talking to Caitlin and you know she said if anyone's gonna do it this should be the guy. But, you know, through the trial stuff, I've talked about this timeline, you know,

through the whole period of time that all these details of what people wanna know so many times. And, you know, I guess he just wanted to know so many times and you know I guess he just wanted to know what it was like from my perspective and I'm sure there's you know a lot of kind of interesting anecdotes mm-hmm to especially to some of your listers well like the one where you guys were in the hotel in Massachusetts and you were smoking crack and you guys were listening to Red Scare.

Yeah, we were listening to the- Do you remember what episode you were listening to? Well, yeah, so I wanted to tell you. So it was like a month or so before that that Jordan Bars had sent me your podcast and that's when I had started listening and it was like I had listened to the K-Punk episode like the day before I went up there and I was listening to it and I was just I feel like I texted him and I was like

you have to listen to this and it was you know at a certain point. I don't think we was a Hunter Biden. We haven't said it. Well, that's another funny thing of like, we did our first episode together. I don't know if I'm allowed to say this, but you were like, you told us this guy. No, I told you before. I told you. Yeah. It was like a couple months before. And we like couldn't talk about it. And when I first told you, I feel like you didn't know who he was, which is the same thing. Well most people didn't. Nobody did. Because it was 2019. And so I was like, oh, the former vice president's son?

Most people didn't realize how many kids he had. Yeah. Hunter wasn't in the... No, and that was the kind of experience with whenever I introduced him to anyone. Right, yeah. There was one time in New York where we went to that place, the flower shop in Chinatown. And it was for a friend of mine's launch for her clothing brand. and I went with my friend

who went to Bard and a guy she went to Bard with ended up you know talking to us and I guess he knew who he was so like he and Hunter were like at the bar for like 45 minutes and the guy the just like, what are you doing here? But I'm pretty sure that was the only person I can think of. Like he never got recognized at like China Chalet or Lucien. No, he was still pretty anonymous. Completely, yeah.

But wait, but backtracking to the part in the article where he talks about Hunter listening to the episode of Red Star. So it was the K-Punk episode. It was. And can you tell our voices apart? Yes, OK, he could. And he said that you both sounded really hot. Oh, cool. Yeah.

Yeah, I remember that. I think it was pretty late into the morning. It was like probably like three or four in the morning. Yeah, that sounds so fun. And we were sitting on a bed in one guest room. It wasn't in a hotel, it was actually in his house, in his rental house and it had like four rooms. And we were just ended up in one of the other rooms

and the lights were like super bright like in here. And yeah, I feel like we were talking about something and I was like can I finally play you this thing I was listening to it's so interesting and it was actually like the other day I was like trying to remember because I told Joe I said I think this is you know this is the episode we were listening to and Um, and Joe was like, that tracks. Um, but I couldn't remember exactly, you know, what we were talking about. And so I re listened to it a bit, like a couple of days ago and.

Yeah, I feel like it was like all about this, like mental health kind of, you know of zeitgeist. And there was something about it that felt like he would find it interesting and relate, but I doubt he remembers what it, you know. Well, maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Did you read his biography?

I didn't, I haven't read any wait who's Hunter oh yeah I think we've reviewed it. We did an episode on it. I listened to a bit of it on audiobook because the Prosecutors asked me to tell them if there was anything That didn't seem, you know, correct. If there was anything that I thought, you know, was in fact incorrect, you know? But no, I didn't read or listen to the whole thing. It's pretty boring.

Yeah. There's some fun like capers in it, but do you have like a hard time engaging with stuff that reminds you of that relationship? Sometimes. But I think it's just like so from this perspective of from the moment that, you know, I kind of stopped, you know, the connection between us literally, like, you know, phone email, all that stuff. It

was like already a campaign. So everything that I kind of took in felt performative in some way. And I think from knowing him, everything that I understood from him was super like, you know, a different personal side than I'm sure whatever, even back then, you know, he kind of put out into the world as a public persona. So I guess I have a question like, why, why did you want to talk to Joe and tell your story? Because I was thinking about this article, which is like, you know, it's pretty like mellow and tame and it's not critical or even necessarily that gossipy. And it's not like a classic tell your story situation

where the woman is like on a me too terror and it's like, he abused me and exploited me and I hate him and da da da. I think it was mostly that everything out there on the internet was just so salacious and it was just you know when one article comes out there's like five kind of copies of that article you know and there's just like replicas and replicas so like on the Daily Mail circuit. Yeah but even the Daily Mail does something and then like some you know. There's websites that say the same thing.

Yeah so it's like you type my name in and it's like pages of the same stuff and I just wanted something else out there and I wasn't, you know, 100% sure what exactly I wanted out of the article. And I spoke to Joe for so long, we spoke for like five hours in total, probably. And there was only so much he could kind of condense that into. So I think part of the article was kind of his interpretation of my experience, which Do you feel he did it just yeah, yeah, I just think you know, it's like a Relationship as a period of my life, you know one year. It's like one thing that happened and To me it was just like a lot less salacious I guess is the word. In the experience of course there's you know drugs and sex and parties and that kind of stuff but... You felt it was a

little neutered? I felt like there was just something kind of more I don't know the word like it was very genteel yeah that could be I don't know like it was very there were elements that were wholesome in a way mm-hmm you're talking at your the relationship itself not the article that like yeah as it was happening the relationship felt very like normal and romantic. Yeah. Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. Yes.

From Joe's perspective, he was like, but you were also 24. Yeah, you were a stripper. Yeah. And the only real relationships I'd had were like... A downtown party girl. Yeah. It's like, on paper, it does sound so crazy and salacious. But it kind of tracks with my theory of the world, which is like, everything is much more like reasonable and mundane in reality than it sounds.

Yeah. And it's not so black and white. And I think part of what while I was in it, I kind of was excited by the, you know, intense, you know, salaciousness. I don't know why I can't think of another word right now, but yeah. Like the chaos? The drama? Well yeah the like craziness of it, but on the day to day, and at least just like the way that I feel like I related to him at that time, there was a lot of stuff that felt really normal. But I think I just also wanted to kind of put out that I'm normal in some way. And I feel like I've seen and heard and other people have experienced relationships that are, you know, have just as much chaos, but it's just not like that. President Sonia. A lot of people have been in relationships with drug addicts. Yeah. Yeah, same. Well, I have a question about that because there was another article that I saw an

excerpt from that I didn't actually read, somebody posted it on Twitter and it was like a woman talking about how she was like in a VIP room at a strip club and Hunter put on fleet foxes and she felt really safe with him and I realized yeah I was like oh duh this is Zoe but I I was, like, why do we women feel so safe with, like, womenizing drug addicts? Like, what's that all about? Well, I just like even before I knew even both like the time period between that night and me seeing him again, which ended up being like kind of, you know know it was a week and then it turned into the next 11 months like the moment he was like oh I'm gonna put a song on

my phone and put that song on I was like I was like what this is the soggy foot I thought it was the funniest thing and like endearing and um male Pisces what happened was that I was yeah I was like uh finishing my night working there and you know the manager and another dancer were like do you want to stay for one more you know private rooms 30 minutes whatever and I thought why not? Especially because they just asked me and it was just straight up, you know, to do it and it was like 4 to 430. But while I was in the elevator, the girl who was with me, I guess she'd known him or she'd known of him, she turned to me and was like, by the way this guy does crack. And I was like, okay. I was like all right this is gonna be an

interesting experience I guess. So I kind of like went in a little on guard for that, but when I walked in the door you know or in the through the curtain what he looked like and the way he was dressed it was like not what I was expecting. And then he put on the white winter himnal by Flee Foxes, which I remember listening to when I was like 14. That's, yeah. Yeah, I was like listening to it

while I was like shopping at Urban Outfitters. Yeah. I thought that was just the funniest thing I'd ever seen And I think during the testimony I just like needed to get that detail because it was so funny There's so many things that just made me laugh. Yeah Yeah, another But did you feel like you were like instantly attracted to him or not really? Yeah. Okay. Yeah I mean it was just walking in like the or not really? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean it was just walking in like the the attitude he had, his personality, the way he looked. Like he was so kind.

Mm-hmm. I remember you telling us that back in 2019. Yeah. He's so like sensitive and told like yeah like being tortured is very attractive. Yeah, but obviously at that point, you know, it's like you have to kind of reflect and say, okay, like you can think this person is so kind and so sensitive, but like, look at what you're experiencing. Like, you know, that's not healthy for you. Well, yeah, you have to set, like you have to kind of understand a person's limitations and accept them for what they are and set boundaries accordingly.

Like that's like truly the meaning of love. But which I got to that point. Yeah, I eventually do. But do you like I wonder what why all of us women are so attracted to like these type of guys? So makes you feel special. Yeah. And you feel like you can fix him and like all these like obvious things. But is it also because like they don't really need you Yeah, and you feel like you can fix him and like all these like obvious things, but Is it also because like they don't really need you because their addiction is numero uno

And that also turns women on because like you know when you have like a clingy or sticky guy or like halfway out the door Yeah, but often with addicts they do need you because they the dynamic becomes coded. I'm not saying do need you because they the dynamic becomes coded. I'm not saying. Yeah, but selectively, arbitrarily, which is also a turn of the first night that I stayed with him at the Soho Grand in that hotel. When I woke up the next morning, he was asleep and I think I must have I had my laptop with me and I remember I was like oh I have something to work on and I loved the lounge there. Have you guys been there? It's really nice. It's like low couches and huge big windows and I was just like okay I'll go downstairs and do some work and order coffee and so I wrote him a note and I was like I'm just downstairs and when I got back he said, you know, I was

so happy when I saw your note I thought, you know, most, you know, I thought you were, you left and that was the first time that I've slept in two weeks or something like that. And then I feel like throughout that week, I don't know if this is true, but he said, and kind of throughout the first couple months, he kept saying that, when I'm with you, I'm not using as much, I feel like you're helping me slow down and you're a distraction

that's gonna help me get off this. And I mean, from the first night, we kind of talked about it fully. Like he immediately was like, I't want to be in this situation But I Think he also did a good job making me feel really special Which as you know as soon as I felt that it was like I wanted to feel that and it felt like Okay, nobody else has been able to help him and ultimately

you learn that nobody else can help them yes yeah you know how how like unique and special could you be if you. Yeah. And ultimately at the end of the day, it's like, I think this is with so many situations, like has not specific to the drug addiction or any kind of addiction. It's like, you're the only one who can make the commitment to change for something that you want. Yeah. And like help yourself. Yeah. When I was in LA with him at one point, he left to go back to the East Coast for like

two and a half weeks. And I ended up going to like an Al-Anon meeting and Beverly Hills. And it was just like with a bunch of, it was mostly older women who were talking about their children who were you know addicted to various things. And I feel like I did speak and I was like I'm with this guy and blah blah blah blah. And I think by the end they were just like why are you with him? You know? You just you know it's not that long. I told them probably at that point it'd been five, six months. I think, you know.

Were you loved? Would you say you loved him? Yeah, I mean, I think I was like, one, too young to realize how serious it was compared to, I don't know, other kind of levels of addiction. Um, Well, he probably did a good job making you feel special, but also did a good job masking

the extent of the addiction from you for a time. Yeah, for a time. Yeah for time and and when he was, you know very present it felt like he was so energetic and and geared towards a Future for himself that at that time, you know felt like I was included in it Did you ever imagine like a future together like a traditional future like I mean it's marriage points I felt like I felt like I don't know how but like you know we fit together so well or whatnot but at the same time I think in the back of my head I was like of course that's not gonna happen but again everything was up in the air in terms of, you know, the situation with his dad and his family.

And I think in my mind, you know, I thought maybe if his dad didn't run for president, then okay, I don't know. But yeah, no one would have even been talking about the Biden. But at the same time, you know, from the very beginning, everyone in my life was like, this is never going to end well. Yeah. So one of my questions is like, what did your friends and family think of this? Oh, they, you know, at a certain point, they all were fed up. And yeah, and I, you know, had to continually defend the fact that I was, you know, going to California. I mean, I had my reasons for doing that. And yeah, it was constantly kind of like defending the situation and trying to make it seem normal

when nobody believed that at all. Yeah. I love that point in Joe's article where you were like, oh, he met my mom and she didn't say anything mean, but she didn't say anything at all. Oh, yeah, totally. I mean, that's kind of how my mom is with everybody. Like, not very many people would press my mom.

But no, it is, you know, when we went to California, his kind of starting of that conversation was, You know, when we went to California, his kind of starting of that conversation was, okay, I can't deal with all of the stress that has to do with everyone in my life on the East Coast. I wanna go to California. I feel like if I'm with you and we set up this detox and this rehab, it'll finally happen. And in my mind, my lease on my apartment was ending. It was perfect timing.

I had saved up enough money to go work with the only factories I knew, which were in LA. And it felt perfect. We were gonna get a place together. He was gonna bring his car. I was gonna bring my samples that I'd made here in New York, and I just had to be there and go there, you know, every couple of days and go meet and check on them and kind of start that process. And whenever I talked to my friends, that was, you know, this is the reason why I'm here. Like, it's gonna be good.

Yeah. And I think, you know, after a month or two months in LA, there was definitely distance between you know my close friends and family that were back here. I had friends in LA and you know I think we all spent time together I would you know we would they would come over and hang out wherever we were and I brought Hunter over to various things in LA with my friends, but pretty soon after we were there it was like, you know, it was kind of like, I think like Joe said in the article, it was like pretty obvious how intense his

situation was. Did he have friends? No. I mean, he talked about his close friends that were people he grew up with. But he would make friends with people everywhere he went. And when we were in LA, it was like those were his new friends. Yeah. Right. What's your best memory of the relationship? Like what do you, what do you, if you had to like your fondest memory? I don't know. I have to think about that. Think about it. Think about it. It's all just like at this point it's like everything seems dark but at the same time it's like there's funny things.

Yeah. Um, ask me at the end. Yeah. Let me think. I'll let you think about this type of experience. Really? It's hard looking back because it makes you realize that everything you really believed in and had faith in is fake. And it makes you question your own instincts. Oh yeah. And your own feelings. I mean, when you fall in love with somebody

right away, like very intensely, and then it gets like- You're using that to justify everything else. Yeah, and then it gets kind of like, the curtain gets pulled back, and you're like, wait a second, this is actually really dark and dysfunctional. It took me a long time once that happened,

the curtain to get myself to actually let go because I didn't want to. But I think after it happened, after the last time we saw each other, which then led into months of intense communication and him obviously pushing me away and like anytime we communicated it was like him finding some reason to be angry or fight. It took a while for me to tell myself not to reach out because I knew that you know, my constant state was like heightened anxiety and sadness and anger and that kind of stuff.

And even once I let go and I was like, okay, I know this is bad for me, like, my future doesn't include this. I would took a long time to figure out what does my future look like because it felt different from from the way I felt about looking towards the future before this all happened. And I don't know necessarily what that is. I think it kind of is a mix between this experience and kind of the way I saw myself through, you know, you know, expressing myself publicly on the internet. Everything felt... Well you stopped, you kind of disappeared. Yeah, well, like I told Joe, it's like there were a couple times they like took my Instagram down, and I was just like I don't care anymore. It feels good to not

have it, and it felt really good to kind of move through the world being like just me. And I think before all of this, just in the early days of Instagram, it was like, it felt really natural to me. Like this is something I think about now is like how like the medium of social media is always changing. Like the stories used to be like Snapchat

and that kind of thing. Like back when I was like really, yeah, and like back when I was really into Instagram and it felt so natural, it was like, it was just like one picture. We used to post so freely. I used to just post a picture of whatever. And it felt like an extension of my, you know.

Now you have to like, I was looking, I was going down Instagram the other day because I was like stir crazy, like sleep deprived and sick as a dog. And I was just going on Instagram looking at everybody's posts and I was like, oh, we have like a thousand, 2000, 3000 posts, but none of us really post anymore regularly. I noticed that too. Like I go to a lot of people's Instagrams and like on the grid, you know, the last one is a couple months ago. Yeah.

But now obviously it's all stories. It's all videos too. It's TikTok, which I feel really old. Like I feel like I don't know how to use that as a medium. Like it's very- Yeah, but it like, it's just like crazy because- It's very, yeah, but it like me, it's just like, it's very advanced and stimulating that like in our late twenties and early thirties, new ladies are still in your early thirties, but you were like posting everything on

Instagram at all times. Yeah. Well, it was just like simpler to me. It was just like a simpler kind of method. And like, I think even when I was like doing that I had this sense where it was like this is just like one app that's controlled by this company like you know who I am and like what I want to do for work for career or whatever what I want to do is like I don't want it to be tied

to like an app. The app is just like a tool to promote yourself. It really sucks. And I feel like it's just very, you know, one dimensional to like have, you know, this kind of seriousness to your, you know, what you do as a person, which is just, you know, just modern day. It's like who you are is what you do, but have that all rely on being able to use this one thing versus like being who you are in the real world.

So, and I think there were personal reasons too, like just, you know, I loved being able to meet people out in the world and just have them get to know me as the person in real life versus them being able to like see whatever I posted on the internet. And I think that also, you know, contributed to like, you like, then COVID happened and so I was just isolating even more. But at the time it felt like something I needed to do and looking back I feel like it was something that I needed to like, refine myself.

Yeah, right. Wait, are you on social media at all right now? I feel like I've seen your like, Abby on sometimes I see like a like from Zoe and I'm like, yeah, like I wanted to not miss out on what my friends were doing and interacting with people that I, you know, like and care about, especially work, like, you know, with my work, a lot of my interests have like shifted over the years. I feel like I want to talk about this. It's just like my whole life I thought I wanted to be in fashion and make clothes and there

was like a big shift for me at a certain point with that. And I wanted to, you know, be a participant in, you know, what happens on social media, Instagram. I don't use TikTok like that, but I honestly should because that's the thing. But like I said, it's- It seems labor intensive. Very. It does, yeah. Yeah. You have to basically produce the little show.

No, I have friends who are telling me to hire a 19 year old to help me edit the video. And you have to speak in a specific flat monotone. When you're married. And it's just not as cute looking as Instagram. Used to be like, you could look cool and make pretty looking images. Your grid could all kind of have a coherent aesthetic. You can only put a certain number of characters to the

caption and it's simple and that's what it is. And now TikTok just looks like a little like cringe in some ways, but I'm a full consumer of it anyway. I find so many things on TikTok that I love. Oh my god, I can't stop. I watch the makeup tutorials that I get are getting so crazy. Like women like drawing on their face with eyeliner. They're like watch me do my makeup with one like lip liner and but like scribbling it all over their whole face and then blending it and kinda looking like they think about it. It's like so psycho. It's like new. I don't know a new humor Outlet or something like I used to think Twitter was like the place where you'd find the funniest stuff, but tick-tock

It's like yeah, oh so much of that stuff makes me laugh, but I feel completely like weird trying to even make something on that app, but um Sure, yeah. Sure. It's hard. Like, what would you even do? I know. Well, I don't know. One of the things that I do love is, like, I love when people do, like, house tours and

show their, like, really nicely decorated apartments and all of their, like, trinkets and the things that they've collected that, like, mean something to them. And I feel like that's cool to see. And it is. It's like, well, HGTV but like in like micro social media form. Yeah. And I've just especially over the years like really retreated into like loving my house and I was telling you guys I like moved last year. Yeah you're very domestic. Which is funny. Do you have like any Taurus in your chart anywhere?

Which is funny, do you have any Taurus in your chart anywhere? I know I'm a triple fireside. Okay. So no. I might, but I haven't looked at my whole chart. Are you a squirrel? I'm a Leo, Aries, Aries. Wow. Which I think is quite intense.

Did you find that Hunter was much of a male Pisces? Well, he was an Aquarius. Really? When's his birthday? February 4th. I knew that because he's an Aquarius. Wow what a twist. That's my mom's birthday. Three out of five of my boyfriends that I think of were Aquarius's and they're my like opposite you know on the chart so his birthday was right around the time of my half birthday so at the time I was like that means something. That's like me and Anna. I don't know what they're maybe it's like sister signs is what it's called I don't know. There's some signs that are Aquarius's

are also very with Gemini. Yeah I don't think it's called. I don't know. There's some signs that our Aquarius is are also very with Gemini. Yeah, I don't think that like necessarily. Yeah, some edible but yeah, I always thought and I remember when I was with him thinking like, oh, these other boys, like everyone I've dated was an Aquarius. So I guess that's like the sign for me. No, it is. I mean, I have the same problem. Yeah, talked about this before, but three out of five of my serious boyfriends have been Capricorns. And the other one is an Aries and one's an Aquarius. Yeah. But like, you start to read into stuff.

I was reading into it for sure at the time. Right. All the signs were pointing towards the Shatana. Yeah. But, I mean, I would definitely, if someone was like come stay with me the Shatana I would be like absolutely. Oh that's lovely. He's Aquarius Sun Capricorn Moon and Cancer Rising. So that explains his sensitive side.

Yeah I don't really know what that means. But yeah, no, I mean, definitely I would think of him as sensitive. You know, he was tortured and wanted to be, you know, wanted to find connection. So that was definitely my experience. But back to your question, I guess, about, you know, social media now, I feel like it's still really cool to see what people are doing and to, especially as a, you know, creative person, it's where you can, you know, show the things that you make and you do and you like Pinterest Pinterest I use Pinterest for everything oh my god yeah I have like a hundred boards yeah I can see that yeah I do a lot for crochet and I was really into felting for a while like creating

little like ornaments yeah yeah like it was like needle felting for a while, like creating little like- Do you make ornaments? Yeah, yeah, like it was like needle felting little dolls and they're like insane. Yeah, when I saw you last, you were telling me you were wanting to make splashes. Yeah, yeah. Really good idea. What are you doing now?

I'm making like the most like domestic, silly, like wholesome things. No, I mean, as Joe said in the article like after you know the relationship I like was so kind of mixed emotions about what I want to do I mean I wanted to launch my brand. I'd spent a ton of money on all of these clothes. The sample that I gave you guys each one, and I have, I think it's like 1,100 pieces of clothing.

And by now I've moved them across three apartments, four apartments, and that first year and a half, two years through like when COVID started, I remember when COVID happened, I was happy because I was like, okay, I need more time. Yeah. But as time went on, every time I went to go work on it and look at it, I was like, I can't do it. I hate it. It's not good. It's like the, you know, nobody's gonna buy it, it's, you know.

And I don't know if that was an emotional thing because for example, I have one of my brothers, my younger brother, he's like five years younger, all of his friends always kind of followed what was happening and they've always told him like, when is she gonna do it, we wanna buy everything and he's always telling me, he's like, Zoe, you've done the hard part, like you have it all.

I would have, absolutely. Yeah, but there was something, it just like, I don't know if it's just like me being a stubborn like artist or something, where I was like, I can't put it out, like the vulnerability of it and it felt, I didn't want people to see it anymore. And I think also at a certain point, like the like actual clothes,

I feel like I started seeing things that reminded me of it. And I was like, okay, this isn't innovative anymore. It's too old. I designed it. I mean, I first did those like designs in like 2016-2017. And it took too long. Well now if you go to like garage or addicted, it kind of looks like weed slot apparel. It's like the lettuce hens and like the low cut shorts. Common consciousness.

Yeah I mean for years I was like I'm just gonna burn it all. I don't know. There was like there was something like cool about doing that. No, I've lugged it across so many apartments I have a back door in my apartment to release it as like an archival product Yeah, and I'm never gonna make it again. There's only a you know, there's only a certain number like the grinders I think I only have like a hundred and seventy three pieces Whereas like the you know, how many I only have like 173 pieces, whereas like the, you know. How many chambers are in the grinder? Well, it's like, it's a, it's like a, what's it called? Airtight container grinder. It's

a med tainer is what it's called. So it's got like a place for you to store air weed or, a place for you to store ear weed or I like roll a joint and put it in there to go sometimes but like I have a hundred seventy three pieces of those but then I have like a thousand lighter leashes because that's what Alibaba like did as their minibones or whatever but yeah I mean I need to sell it because it takes up so much space in my apartment and I've been lugging it forever and it's like, you know, everyone in my life has told me like, you need to get rid of it like spiritually too. That's true.

Like every time I've moved. It's not sparking joy. No. No. It's really not sparking joy. But then I'll open those bags because they they're all in these big black moving bags, and every couple months I'll open it and I'll look, I'll be like, this is a good design, this is pretty good.

But the last thing I want to do is build a website, take new photos, create an ad campaign, start pushing it. It felt just so not the direction. It felt like I was looking backwards. And in 2019 I started working with this artist, this woman who actually her name's Elizabeth Haight. She actually used to write a sex call. She's pretty cool. She's like kind of the IRL Carrie Bradshaw. And she was making you know fine art. And she found me through some other RISD friends of mine and wanted to do home decor and like homewares. And through all of my working

with factories, I just like knew how to make what she wanted. So, I kind of got into that and then I realized that my interests were changing. And that kind of led me, well that led me to a year or so of not making anything, which was probably the worst part of the whole thing. It was like I would go into my studio, which I had a whole separate room in my apartment at that time. And I couldn't, I had no idea what I wanted to do. I wasn't like inspired. You know, I remember.

You mean this is during? This is like 2020, 2021. Okay. You know, like 2019. COVID was just really, it was hard to do. It was really dark. I couldn't take a selfie because I was like, I look, I have a haunted- I mean, there were years, like I couldn't take selfies, but, and which was like,

I was like, everything I did, I was like, everywhere I went, I took selfies, like, for years. But, you know, 2019, I think, for that whole year, I tried to convince myself that I was moving towards it and it was going to happen and that's what I needed to do and I spent the last of the money I had saved on like building out you know starting a website and then I ran out of money and I had all this stuff and I needed to work and then I would go into the studio trying to work on it or sit at my laptop trying to figure out marketing and I was like, I can't do it. It's not right. And then for another two years, I just focused on this job I had because it felt easy to

just be creative for this other person. What was your job for this woman? Elizabeth. Yeah. So I was like, you know, she had all these products she wanted to make and I loved her work and I loved. I actually remember, I think you mentioning her to us the first time.

Yeah, I mean, I had friends who were working with her before I ever met her and I remember being jealous. Like the work was really cool to me. And I thought it was, I don't know, it was something I wanted to be a part of. And so I think for a couple years, it was really easy to kind of just disappear into that and put all my effort into somebody else's work.

And then after a little while of that, I started to get depressed about the fact that I haven't made anything in so long. I can't even go into my studio that has all of these tools and supplies, and I can't even go into my studio that has like all of these tools and supplies and I can't even sit there for four hours and like just make something with my own two hands, which is what I feel like I've done my whole life. Do you feel more creative now?

Yeah, yeah. It took a while. I think the first thing I did was like I just like started I started making a couple like paintings which is like not ever really been my thing but it just felt easy and it was kind of just making like interesting like color patterns and stuff which just felt like the basics of what I've made in the past and then I ended up buying a knitting machine which is something I used made in the past. And then I ended up buying a knitting machine, which is something I used back in school. And so I took like, I don't know, a couple months to like relearn this tool and kind of just like get into the, just like relearn things. I tried like new mediums and the job that I had, I started working, you know, with like this like field of like really cool home decor.

And I feel like in COVID, I stopped buying clothes and started buying things for my house. It started like feeling like that had more weight to me. Wait, I have a fashion question for you. Because anytime that I've like googled you, you're wearing like a little bit of Pucci. Oh yeah. I just love Pucci. Why? What's up with the Pucci? I'm just obsessed with Pucci.

I love Pucci too, but I would never personally wear it. It wouldn't work for me. I bet it would. It's amazing. You guys have a similar... I'm wearing Pucci right now. I know. I know Pucci sponsored me. I've been obsessed with Amazair. You guys have a similar. I'm wearing Pucci right now. I know. I was just saying, why Pucci?

I know Pucci sponsored me. I've been obsessed with Pucci forever. It's such a specific, cute thing to be into. I think for- Because people are into Gucci or Fendi. People don't think of Pucci. It was so, I feel like it was so retro and so too colorful for people to wear for a while and before like Kamini Shelley like became the new creative director for it it was you

know there wasn't new poochy stuff coming out and yeah I remember at RISD they had a bunch of stuff in the museum and I just I love color I love bright colors and all sorts of patterns. Yeah it's like very like New York Jewish bohemian. Yeah. That's like the vibe. And I feel like I wanted something that like showed my like personality and like kind of

girliness and um. Well the knitwear, you know, knit is great. I like Missoni for this. Yeah, that's my other. I'm obsessed with Missoni too. And Missoni makes amazing home stuff. They do, they do. Yeah, their collab stuff with Roche Bovois is like insane.

They have this, you know, Roche Bovois has the Mah Jong sofa. It's like puzzle pieces. Yeah. And they've done different clubs. They have a Missoni one, they have a Jean Paul Gaultier one, and they have a Kenzo one. The Jean Paul Gaultier one is really cool. It has like a... And it's like a modular sofa?

It's a modular sofa. And the way that they do it is like each piece has different prints and fabrics. There's a Kenzo one. Those are my top two, Missoni and Pucci. I just, I love that Pucci scarf that I wore to the trial. And I like really didn't want to. You looked amazing. Oh thanks. Did you put a lot of thought into your look?

I knew I had to wear like a suit because I wanted to look serious because every time I ever met with prosecutors they were in suits and they also they and my lawyers were like please wear a suit and I hate wearing something boring and I love scarves so I just threw it on and yeah I mean I wear that scarf everywhere. Oh yeah I was wearing that bag too. That's my prized possession. It's like a apparently according to eBay where I got it it's rare. And it's a Y2K but yeah that's yeah I love that bag. It's like my my one prized possession bag and it matches all of everything everything that I own. Yeah

No, I have no reason for wearing Pucci other than I just love it just it it speaks to you personally Yeah Mm-hmm and that the color combinations are weird, which I like they are there. Oh, you can pull off like a jewel You can wear, you know. Well, what I'm missing. Do you know what season you like? Oh, I don't. But I want to do that.

Wait, what is that? Like your color. Like soft winter, soft autumn, soft spring. Your? There's kibby types, which is a different thing. And then there's like your kind of season and color. It's like your color story, I guess Yeah based on your undertones I think. And hair yeah. But what I am missing is I need some pastel Pucci because

everything I have is very dual tone. Well where do you get where do you even buy Pucci because I feel like real real everything. This is from the real real. Pucci is due for a revival because there's so many like fashion brands that like you know every couple of years it's like a new like an old fashion brand. Like Scabarelli. Yeah, Scabarelli, Bottega, whatever. Somebody needs some like elder millennial creative gurus need to take over Pucci. Well Camille Michelli, she used to work for Marc Jacobs and like she kind of

revamped it. I don't know how long ago. It was probably not that long, like three, four years. And that's my scarf is from her collection. She's definitely you know made this kind of like new era of it. The only thing is is it's a lot of like sportswear, like athleleisure like the leggings that I have. But every brand is doing that exactly that's what's easy and cheap. And that's what you know people are buying that's what's making them a lot of money which is great. I feel like it's a lot of like Russian and Chinese oligarch swabs who have plastic surgery. Yeah.

And they have to wear athleisure because they're like wearing bandages underneath. And I do love athleisure, but the Chinese luxury market has been really influential. Yeah. Isn't Japan like really good for? No, that's good for like resale. Yeah. I mean like Chinese people who buy luxury products. They're like a determining customer base. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure. And it's funny how like every year or two, there's like a new scandal in the media where it's like this designer did cultural appropriation

by making a cheap dress. And they're all like so excited. Yeah. I mean, I love. Yeah. Did you guys see the Met Show like China Through the Looking Glass? It was like. Twenty fifteen, sixteen, I was in New York. I don't know. I don't know when it was.

It was not that recent, but it was all it was called China through the Looking Glasses all the first half of it was you know like old Chinese garments from 400 300 years ago and then the second half was all like contemporary designers like inspired by Chinese do it doing orientalism and I think like in fashion, that's always cool. Like fashion is always definitely, you know, referential. There's nothing wrong with a little Eastern influence.

It's all really fine. Asian designers do to do like the Asian to Asian transsexual thing where they like literally just like the Mandarin collar everywhere like Shu Shu Tong which is a brand I like. Yeah. They sell in essence. Yeah. Yeah. It couples like the traditional Chinese dress style with like the CCP aesthetic where it's like kind of dull and gray. It's a kind of dull gray communist wool. Okay. Yeah, which I love

I Yeah, I love I mean I I feel like I do really love Chinese stuff cuz my grandmother used to go to China all the time. Why is your family an import export family? No My grandmother she owned a tuxedo store called Lexington Tuxedo when I was growing up. When I was a toddler, I would go hang out there and it was on the second floor on Lexington Avenue and I would go hang out in the window with the mannequins. But she had a tuxedo rental business.

My family's like, at least on that side, you know, New York Jewish, who's from Brooklyn, and she just loved China. She went like all the time. And I have a headboard on my bed with a matching bed skirt that she saved me with really cool Chinese fabric. And she would always give me the like ink brush sets and lots of stuff.

That was like her favorite thing. Yeah. Are you like fully Ashkenazi? Fully. Okay. Yeah. From Poland and like Ukraine and Belarus. I actually just saw my one grandmother from Cape Town today. And yeah, my dad's South African. South African.

Okay. But my mom's from, you know, New York, her family, has been here a bit, but on both sides we're all kind of from the same place. I asked my grandmother two days ago, and she said on my grandpa's side, they're Russian, and then on her side it's Lithuanian and Polish, and then on my other grandma's side, my mom's,

it's Polish and Romanian. My sister did 23andMe, and it just like said 99% Ashkenazi. It just showed the whole of Europe. Like the whole of Europe. The whole world. Yeah, pretty much. It was like a huge image of the map. Mine was the same because it was said Russian

and it was like Russian and Eastern European. That's like a huge swath. Why can't they do anymore information? Yeah, and then the Baltic Lithuanian. So we're both a little Lithuanian. But different, because I'm not British. Yeah, but I have a sneaking suspicion that you are somehow distantly related to Eli and or Adam Friedland.

Maybe Adam Friedland. Adam Friedland is from Cape, his family is from Cape Town. Oh, okay. Well, my family is from Johannesburg, but probably the same thing. Who knows? Yeah. I mean, all of the South African Jews know each other in my experience, like everyone that I've met, like we have family that went back to the UK and to all

over the United States and I feel like everybody knows everybody. Weirdly. Yeah, deaf, yeah. Yeah, like when I went down. It's a small diaspora. Yeah, whenever I went down to Cape Town, like I went for my cousin's bar and bat mitzvahs, and it was like huge, like every Jewish person in Cape Town came.

Yeah. So it's, yeah, I feel like they weren't there for that many, you know, generations. They probably were only in South Africa for like two or three generations. That's probably true, yeah. Yeah. I wonder how they got over there. Do you know? I have to ask. I don't know. There's probably some exodus. That's why I have full ID now. Well, my grandmother said that her mother, I think, was in Poland. She said that she went and saw

I think was in Poland. She said that she went and saw her mother's home in Poland somewhere. Okay. But yeah, very confusing. It's like a lot. It's, you know, my mom's dad's family is all Romanian, and I don't know anything about kind of that end. But if, yeah. I have a question. We can cut this. Bring it on. Okay, I heard. So you, okay.

What did you hear? Okay, you, well, when you told us about Hunter back in 2019, honestly. I told you in 2018. Yeah. No, no, wait. No. How? I remember telling you. When you came on the show, it was 2019. I know, but. And that's when you, wait. No, I remember telling you when you came on the show it was 2019. I know but I told you. I told Anna. Yeah, I told Anna because I had met

you when I had like just last seen him. Oh, true. Yeah, and I was like... And we kept that secret. Yeah, we really like were so... and then all the stuff in the news I was like damn I was like wow that's crazy. I really was like not running. I didn't run my mouth I was really just like it was like why you know We're like praising ourselves for keeping us. Yeah, we're like doing a baseline courtesy. I know it's like again It's the Chris Rock Black people versus whoop it where he's like I take care of my kids it's like it's the baseline yeah but I heard from over deck that I've needed I don't think it really matters but she told me that the FBI broke down your

door and that you had the laptop the No. The laptop from hell was a... How do rumors get started? I heard that you had... The reason that you were not online was because you had the laptop from hell and the FBI broke down your door and you were so traumatized that... I mean, that probably stemmed from some truth because it's just... I'm so fascinated how a rumor like that starts. Somebody else who works for the New York Times, not Jo, a different person, a couple years ago came

and she said, I had a very substantial tip that you were paid not one, not two, but five million dollars to, you know, delete your Instagram. And I was like, girl, I wish, no. But she thought it was a really valid tip. And she said it was serious. She works with the New York Times. But no, that didn't happen.

And you were paid to like, I haven't made any money off of this in any way. I have legal debt. So the opposite. Yeah, that's the opposite. That's why I hate journalists because they're both stupid and craven. Yeah. Generally speaking. Generally speaking. Yeah. I know. She said she said not one, not two, but five. And I said, I think if I if that happened, I wouldn't be talking to you right now.

Yeah. You'd be gone. No. But when they served me the subpoena for the grand jury, they came to my apartment on a random Tuesday, I think. And it was so weird because the apartment I was living in had a door in the lobby on the first floor that sometimes didn't shut. You would leave and it wouldn't shut all the way. And I had taken my dog for a walk, literally 15 minutes. I went to like a bakery and came back

and I must have not closed that door all the way. So I just came back from the walk, went in the door, went upstairs to the third floor where I lived and there was like a business card on my door. And when I saw it said, Zoe, call me. When I saw it, I thought it must be from my my landlord and I turned it around and it was like federal something something something and I called my parents I was like what do I do and they were like you should call them so I did and they were like we're in a car going to see

somebody else but well we can be there in 20 minutes can we come now and yeah and they came in. It was actually what happens when they serve you a subpoena. That it was the guy who's now whistleblower. Who? Joseph Zeigler is his name. Okay. What's he blowing the whistle on? He's saying that people higher up in the government prevented him from investigating things further. And he was very gung ho. Investing what kind of things?

investigating things further. And he was very gung-ho. Investing what kind of things? Well, he worked for the IRS. And so this was in 2021. This was in October of 2021. And I came home from my walk and the business card was there. I called them and it was him and it was him and a woman and they came in and he was like Your name has come up You know, here's a big stack of paper You've been served this subpoena and it basically said you have to hand over any digital Content that has anything to do with this person his businesses whatever but what does that entail? Like personal correspondences, like nudes? Yeah, literally, they ended up taking a photocopy, is what they call those, my phone.

Whoa. But when that happened, you know, that was the first time of many where he basically, they sat down on my couch and they were like start from the beginning. And I told him, you know. You're like we were in the VIP room he put on Fleet Foxes. I probably said that. And later we listened to Red Scare.

Yeah, I literally probably said that. And I was like and then we went to the Lou Dallas show and then we went to Elvig Cerebroni. Yeah and I've gotten in this you know repetition of how many times I've actually told that like chronological you know timeline over and over again. But does a subpoena then mean you have to appear in court? Yeah. Okay. Well, so the first thing that happened was I got those that big it was a huge stack of paper and they basically said you have like two months or something this is the date and you need to turn it all over. So for that first month or so I was you know everyone in my family was like,

okay, you need a lawyer. You need, you know, blah, blah, blah. And then once I did get a lawyer, I realized how much work. You have to pay a lawyer. I paid a lawyer, which thank God I did, honestly, because I realized, I realized this year during the trial that if I didn't have a lawyer that I would have had to correspond with the prosecutors and the government so many times whereas like especially Well, I got the subpoena for the trial in April this year So between April and June when I testified there were so many correspondences

And I can't imagine what that would have been like if it was just like me texting and calling them And I can't imagine what that would have been like if it was just like me texting and calling them like that would have just been like scary and weird. But that also was he was for the gun. That was the first one. Yeah. And then there was like a second tax evasion charge. But okay, but this also sounds insane. I'm naive.

But you're like a witness in a trial of a criminal defendant. It was a criminal not civil case, right? And you have to pay your own legal bills. Well, I didn't have to have a lawyer. Okay, you know, I didn't have to have a lawyer, but it was a you know, I didn't do anything wrong. But obviously it was like a very scary. You're not the one on trial. Yeah. No, no, I'm not on trial. But like everyone told me, okay, you can't like, well, start getting involved in this. Yeah, and then what I realized is they basically wanted

To like see into digital traces of my entire life Mm-hmm, and what happens if you say no, then then you're it's a crime because you're Contempt of course something like that. Yeah every so. Every person, my lawyers were like, you can't say no, you're compelled to do it. It's the law fair. But the scary thing was, is like, so like, I also knew this when I got the subpoenas, like Hunter used my laptop a lot,

so I had realized, you know, eventually, and I never deleted them, but there were like a ton of files on my computer that he had downloaded on when he was like, signing a document and emailing it to himself. I had a bunch of that. He had downloaded a bunch of things onto my computer. So I knew I had to turn that over.

But eventually, you know, I had to basically give over like the digital contents of my life to my lawyers for them to make sure I wasn't turning over, you you know something that they don't need to see that's like you know you know things I don't want to be brought into this trial that would be public and I mean like I said I didn't do anything wrong, but obviously I knew this was gonna get like really public, so it was very scary to, you know, I had the eventually I had to drop my phone off at a building in FIDA, you know, in downtown and leave it there for like seven hours for them to like copy.

Like comb through it? No, they just like took a whole download of the whole phone. What did you do while you didn't have a phone? I can't remember but I remember being so mad that it like was like six hours and then seven hours. That's so impressive. It's like a cavity search. I feel like I violated and I had to wait in the city and I live in Brooklyn. I had to do things and like just like wait around to go you know. Yeah and they're like coming through all of your correspondences that are not hunter related which is like whatever you say like talking shit on people and sending leads to other people and like whatever.

Yeah it's like my literally my whole life is on my phone, but what's so funny is like it seems like when I when I went to Delaware, I brought my best friend Phoebe And they were so like they were really nice They like let me bring her into my meetings with them and Delaware and that stuff before the trial They let her know the prosecutors like before I went to Delaware I was like, can I bring a friend so I don't have to go there by myself. Did you? Did you ever? I don't have to go there by myself. Did you ever gain a rapport with any of them?

Well, this is what I was gonna say. It's like when we went into the meeting the day before the trial, you know, various people come in and at this point I figured out, okay, they're lawyers. This person works for the IRS. And then there was a guy who was from the FBI. And once we were in the meeting, and after it happened,

and Phoebe and I went back to the hotel, she's like, Zoe, you realize that FBI guy, he's like the tech guy. So that means he looked through every photo on your phone. And like, I don't know, like just thinking about my interactions with him. Like, and then the next time I saw him, I was like, oh my God,

that guy's literally looked through every single photo on my phone He was yeah And something also very funny that Many of these people in this situation told me but especially him was that they all told me I have like an incredible memory Which I have other friends who have said that to me now recently and they were like,

my lawyers have said that to me, they're like, Zoe, they love you as a witness because you literally remember so much. Which is interesting as a stoner. Yeah, but also I- No, that's why you are a stoner because you have an overactive mind. Probably, yeah.

That's like literally. But like I said also, like I have that period of my life I was taking photos of everything. So yeah in all of my kind of meetings with them when they would ask me certain things I'd be like hold on let me look through my photos I can tell you where I was and what date that was. Well maybe that's the other thing. Yeah. Kind of like journaling. And boom boomer mistook our access to records as like a son of a photographic memory. Yeah. No, but if you ask me now, I'd still probably without looking at my phone remember certain

details. But I do remember that FBI agent telling me that I would make a good FBI agent because of my memory, I guess. I don't know. That could be a good, but because of my memory, I guess. I don't know. That could be a good... But I couldn't because I smoke wheat. Right. Well, yeah, I feel like, yeah, you can't do that if you work for the FBI.

I think you can. Yes, you can. Because it's like you can get like a... it's medicinal. So you can say like you need it for your eating disorder or whatever. I'm very into like true crime you know legal legal drama. I'm fascinated with legal stuff so you know I was really interested in it from that perspective. Yeah we've all done it. Yeah I think I would also be hindered by my smoking weed in being any kind of like federal agent. Yeah, because I do I have a decent mem well, my short term memory is really bad.

Yeah. And then especially when I like couldn't find my eyelash curler. Yeah. Well, that's like a different thing. Like you can't remember where you put stuff, but I can remember where I was when I said something six years ago. Yeah, probably. Yeah. Especially with like if I see if I can just look at like a date in my phone and see like the amalgam of images, I can like remember what I did that day, even if it's just like screenshots or something. I'm like, yeah, it triggers things yeah totally. You have like a prusty in memory based on

shit you see on your phone this is when I was like a raging bitch to my boyfriend for no reason. Yeah and then you'll see a screenshot of something that you took that day and you'll be like, I only screenshotted that because I was angry about this conversation. I want to send it to my friend. But this kind of experience makes you realize how vulnerable we all are because at any point in time, somebody from quote law enforcement can show up and seize our phones. Yeah, anyone you know could be part of a criminal trial and then you can have to... They have to like, subpoena you or whatever and there's just like records. I mean, everyone over the years just imagined that my phone would get hacked and all of

this stuff would disappear and I kind of knew that it wouldn't. I was like... I don't think it works like that. I don't think it works like that. Like disappear? I think it works like that. Like disappearing. I literally have so much documentation from that period of my life. And yeah, it's kind of also interesting to see which pictures they ended up choosing

as the documents in the trial. Yeah. Like one of the fun things that they chose was this photo I took of him in one of our rooms at the chateau where like after, I don't know, one morning he left and took his car and he went to, I think the Hustler store and like came back with like 20 t-shirts,

like five pairs of like knee-high socks. He bought like all of this like kind of like touristy junky shit, but he bought this shirt that had the Adidas logo on it and then instead of Adidas it said addicted and it had like a weed shaped logo on it. And like that's the photo that they used in the trial. Like there was no evidence of like crack in that photo. But when they asked, a character. Yeah, when they asked me about the photo on the stand,

I was like, yeah, this was on this, you know, at this time, at this place. And I just like was thought to add in, I was like, I thought it was funny. The reason I took that photo is because the one drug he didn't do is weed. Yeah. He never smoked weed.

No, he said that weed was the one drug he couldn't handle. Like how? Like he said that like, pretty much all other drugs don't affect him. Like, you know, he could accidentally smoke heroin by accident and he wouldn't feel anything. Or we took mushrooms once, he said he didn't feel anything. And how is this coffee sensitivity mmm I can't remember him drinking a lot of coffee

honestly I have a drink with vodka yeah too bad? No, it's fine. Um... Right. Well, that's kind of a red flag. It's when someone really can't smoke weed. It means they have real demons. Yeah. I know. Because it's like...

Wait, I saw something, I think on TikTok, that was like, if you get paranoid from smoking weed, it just means you're a bad person. Yeah, you like can't. No, I don't agree with that. But like you probably had some like weird fucked up traumatic shit happen to you. I don't know. I mean, paranoia, I think it's different for everybody.

So it just means you can't like sit with something inside of yourself. Yeah. It's like the ayahuasca experience. He did. You know, when we first got to LA, we went to a bunch of those med men, like the fancy dispensaries and he wanted to try every CBD thing ever. And I don't think it really did anything, but he like, you know, he got the CBD vapes, the CBD sodas and all that stuff. But no, he would never smoke weed.

And he'd also be wary of me smoking weed in various places because he knew that that was the one thing that other hotel guests might complain about. Oh, weird. So he was like, if you're going to smoke weed, you have to be really careful and smoke it out of the window or go outside. So annoying to hear from a little crack smoker.

Most people don't know what that smells like. So if they smell it, they're like, what is that? Do you know what it smells like? I do. Yeah. How do you know? Because I live in a crackhead infested zone. You've seen someone smoke it and then smelled it.

I've personally seen people smoke crack not my friends or relative yeah and I I mean I personally engaged with the send mm-hmm well have you smoked crack no let me set the record straight dude I would not be able I'd be like let me set the record straight because the New York Times after my testimony wrote that I testified that I smoked with him and as soon as I got back to the hotel after leaving the courthouse with my lawyer I said look at what they wrote and she wrote an email right there and they issued a correction. I wouldn't be able to resist I definitely would be curious. Yeah within I'm to crack. I mean, it was gross.

It was really gross. The whole apparatus, the whole activity of it, it was dirty and gross and had a very weird, chemically smell. But I didn't recognize the smell at all. I mean, I'm sure I've smelled it in New York before. But within like 20 minutes of going into that hotel room the first day, he offered it to me. That was the only time he ever offered and I was like, I'm good, like fine. And then I think by the second day after I'd stayed over and

you know, we spent all night talking and connecting and whatever. How did you stay up and stuff? I don't know, adrenaline? Yeah, like she was high on love. Yeah, we went to Finnelli Cafe and came back and like he was like asking me about my,'t know, adrenaline? Yeah, she was high on love. Yeah, I don't know. We went to Finnelli Cafe and came back, and he was asking me about my work. And I was like, tell me about your dreams, and your passions, and all this stuff. And he wants to tell me about his kids and his brother. And yeah.

And it was like a. Well, the thing with drug addicts is that they're all like the high-functioning intelligent ones are all really good listeners and good storytellers yeah yeah but I'm pretty sure within the first day you know we probably and this happened many times over was like we would have moments where he'd like look me in the eye and be like I would like please like trust me I will never let you take a puff of this. Yeah the time we we took mushrooms the time we took mushrooms I was it was the next day and I was coming down and I was

sitting on a couch at this hotel near Central Park and I was like sitting on the couch and had the window open next to and I was just kind of like leaning out and he came over to me and took a pull of his pipe and I guess he like went to go lean out the window and exhale and I'm the mushrooms were like still in me and I feel like in my brain I like imagined me like going to kiss him and inhaling what he exhaled and it freaked me out and I like had a moment of like fear like real fear and I remember like I must have been like kind of like up on my knees like leaning on the back of the

couch like kind of like leaning towards the, I might've been smoking a cigarette or something. And I remember I like sat back down and was like, whoa, that was really scary. Like I think something in me like almost went in to kiss you and to inhale that. And I got really scared and he did the same thing again, where he like looked me in the eyes and like, I will never let you

You know intake this I will never you know give you this, you know, well awful thing Yeah Good for you. Thanks. Thanks. I mean eventually, you know after a little while you realize how kind of gross it is because it's like It's like dirty and ashy and it's just it's very gross the actual likes the stuff everywhere it's it's got to feel awesome that's why people do it like yeah yeah I mean like I said and I feel like people have read now at this point and I said it in my testimony like I never saw a change in him So it wasn't like I you know saw him smoke and we'd be you know hanging out or out in public or wherever and I'd see him like feel really good or like excited about something.

Yeah, it didn't seem appealing because he... It didn't seem like anything changed. He was like still this character that was just so like vibrant. Yeah. You know, in the beginning at least. Yeah. Um, but yeah. Have you guys read my testimony? It's like, I guess it's like public record. Not like the court documents. Yeah. But it's like, it's kind of funny to read it because it's like like... Maybe the New York Post. No, no, no, there's like a place you can get it. Joe actually sent it to me. You can probably download the transcript. Yeah, the transcripts.

And it reads like... Yeah, as you said, it's public record. Yeah, it reads like a legal trauma. It's like really funny. I remember, I don't know, I felt really calm that day, which was very strange. And every time they asked me a question, I would say, correct. I don't know why it just like felt like that was what they say in the movies.

Yeah. You're on the stand and trying to like speak in the negative or the affirmative. Yeah. And all the truth. Yeah. You can't handle the crack. But yeah, I mean that transcript has a lot more detail than Joe's article. Was that a surreal experience, like coming face to face with him in the courtroom? Honestly, no.

It was weird. It really wasn't. It felt like really normal in a weird way, like seeing him. The surreal experience was everything leading up Um, it felt like really normal in a weird way, like seeing him. The surreal experience was everything leading up to like going into the courtroom. Okay.

It was like driving to Delaware, like meeting with the prosecutors in a federal building, like staying in this weird hotel that they put me in, you know, driving with Phoebe to the courthouse, like having to park and like walk in and see the see the press and then go into a Waiting room because they had to keep me in a room so that I wouldn't see the other witnesses And who were the other witnesses? On that day. It was his ex-wife that and I don't know who else that day

But you know and same thing with the grand jury like they had another witness I think before me and so like they have to keep us separate So they keep you in like a room like this until like they've made sure that you won't pass them in the hall But that all felt really surreal and I was like very anxious and nervous and then I surreal and I was like very anxious and nervous and then I don't know by the time I got on the stand like I told that story to like my lawyers and those and the prosecutors I told it so many times you know and when I saw him it was just like hey long time I don't know yeah, it was like and he waved at you apparently Yeah, I didn't really see it but so Phoebe was in the The press room they let Phoebe my friend

She wasn't allowed in the courtroom but they let her go into this room that had like a live stream of the courtroom and it had all the press and She said that apparently when that happened because I wasn't actually really looking at him I think I had looked down by the time he'd waved or something. And she said that all of the people in that room were laughing. But when I left, he gave me a little smile.

I mean, I don't know. It was like, I felt bad for him. Yeah, like. How do you feel about, I know you didn't comment to Joe when he asked you this, but how do you feel about his pardon from his dad? I don't know. It's like, we barely did anything that wrong. Well, I think that's like, how do you feel like as like an American citizen?

And then how do you feel as like this person who is an ex of this person? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that's what I was thinking about because like the pardon was ostensibly for the gun charge and the tax charge, but it was a blanket pardon for crimes he may have committed that have not come to light. And isn't that apparently very unusual? Yeah, it's very, it's novel. Yeah, and it's like an 11 year pardon that starts with his time on the board of Burisma.

So I can understand how people are like, well, this is actually like- This seems sketchy. It's sketchy because it's like a pardon for the Biden crime family or whatever, and all of their dealings in China and the Ukraine. But on the other hand, it was the first time that I saw everybody on the right and the left agree for the first time ever where they were like, okay, it's the right thing to do to pardon your own son. And it's like the most humane expression. Isn't it him kind of like, you know, taking the, not taking the bullet, but like, it's only bad for him, for Joe.

It's just like bad for his legacy and like, you know, he could easily have not done it to protect his legacy, to protect. Well, the idea is that he lied because he and who's the Haitian lady Corrine Jean-Pierre who was like his spokeswoman? Yeah like they leading up to it they were like he's not gonna pardon his son and then he did and people were really angry and livid about that because they were like well he lied to us and said he wouldn't pardon but then ended up doing it and And that doesn't seem that, that doesn't seem that out of like the realm of normalcy because like why wouldn't you strategically

like lie and omit? Well, he did it after Thanksgiving. Yeah. He's like a turkey. They spent their week with his family. You know, you start thinking about what you're grateful for. He's scared what it would be like for him to be in jail with Trump as president. Maybe, I don't know. Yeah.

I don't know. I don't really have any like strong feelings towards it. I didn't think he would go to jail necessarily. I kind of imagined like a house arrest situation or something. Were you surprised that he even got in trouble? Yeah. I mean with the trial I wasn't because it was like the evidence was clear. I mean I don't have... But I mean even being taken to trial?

Um, no that didn't surprise me because it was like there was something that was gonna happen. It was like constant. It was like nobody was gonna let it go. And you know, after the grand jury, my lorries were like, okay, you're done for now. We'll see if anything comes of it. And it kind of felt it was annoying to me because it felt like something will happen. I just don't know when. And then I remember when I saw that he like got indicted, I think it was last December, like a year ago now, when they officially like you know filed an indictment. And that meant he was like

charged with a crime. And my grand jury testimony was like a lot more detail than my testimony of the trial. Like the grand jury, I spoke about like you know places he we stayed, certain amounts of money that he paid for for things. Like they wanted to know about certain credit card charges and things that he had written off on his taxes. And like when I did get the subpoena in April, then that's when they told me, OK, we're going to split all of your information between these two things, like one is only going to be about drugs and the other things are going to be about money.

But it was like felt good that it was like, you know, a conclusion that something was going to happen so that like, I wouldn't have to like, wait to see anymore. Right. But I mean, you know, I agree with people saying that, you know, if he wasn't who he was, he, you know, a regular person wouldn't have been charged with that particular crime. Mm-hmm Why do you know why he got the gun? I? Have no idea like I said in my testimony that was like one month. We didn't speak uh-huh

But I guess I was the only witness to him using drugs close to that date. Because before me, he and his lawyers were claiming that he had gone to rehab and they didn't really have evidence of him using drugs between August and October. Do you think he's sober now? He must be, right? Like his dad's the president.

Don't they drug test him like I don't know like I hope so You know, I imagine that he's a very different person than the person that I know Yeah, maybe and I hope so if he's not then I've I feel sad for him but like He's a kid and I think you know like his kids his elder kids are getting older and he should be there for them and I Hope he's sober because he was in a lot of pain and it just sucked like his life sucked before But I mean it's just funny like Um, but I mean, it's just funny, like, you know, everybody on the internet thinks that he's this crazy person who's just as chaotic as you could possibly be.

And I think, you know, he in some ways wanted to wanted to to just prove people right, that he was as much of a fuck up as you could be, but there was some humor to it. He had self-awareness. He did have self-awareness, for sure. What did you think of his paintings? Well, that was a surprise to me. He never spoke about wanting to make visual art when we were together. You know,

from the moment that I met him I told him I thought that being creative in some way would give him, you know, an outlet to possibly get over it. And he told me that he gave up the chance to go to a writer's program out of college and instead went to law school. The Indiana writers workshop. I always forget that. I always forget that people are lawyers, like everyone that's like, yeah, that one highly know which one. I always forget that people are lawyers like everyone that's like yeah, that was highly trained Political professional. Well, did he have the bar? I guess so. Yeah. Well, he said that like, you know, he had a kid very young and He had to you know

Start taking care of his family and you I don't know if he like, I don't think he didn't want to go to law school but he said that he always wanted to be a writer and knew that he really couldn't and so when we were together he always thought that like the thing that was going to save him was writing and that's why I have like a ton of audio recordings. Under S, Biden. Yeah. No, so, whenever we would be talking about specific things,

like he would just like tell me to start recording things on my phone. Maybe I'll play that. Bad idea. I'll play those for you guys off record. But he would be like, are you a queen? Please don't because I don't want my phone to be subpoenaed. Yeah, no, he always spoke about writing as the medium. And I just, you know, I told him, I told him, I said,

you know, you need a purpose. I think you need to make things out of your brain. Like, you know, having some kind of like, um, expression outlet will be some kind of purpose that might help you, you know, not retreat and like stay in the cycle. And well, do you feel like he was living under the shadow of his like prominent political family? In some ways but I think he just like wanted to be a different type of person also that like he never probably had the chance to

I mean if Biden hadn't run for president they would have been a very minor political dynasty He would have been the vice, he would have been a man, Joe would have been a very minor political dynasty. Like, yeah, he would have been the vice, he would have been a man, Joe would have been a man with a long polo career who's the vice president of the Obama administration and then Hunter could have... At the time it was Trump was in office and when we were together it was constantly like people were texting him like we need your dad like and he you know he

loved his dad and he would just say you know I think he has to because he's the only one who can you know yeah did he ever talk to you about his relationship with his dad just that like you know he loved him very much I heard them on the phone you know know, a couple times and Whenever he did talk about him it would be in the context of us talking about like I don't know American history or something and he would say oh well You know my dad he like passed this bill or he was involved in this thing that happened and you know kind of like praise his dad for various things he did but No, you know, it's the same thing as what they say, like publicly, it's just all about like family and which, yeah, I get it.

But I think he knew like his clock was running out because it was probably going to happen. Right. Wait, what was probably gonna happen? His dad was gonna run. Oh yeah. Yeah, I remember texting him in January of 2019. I'd seen an article that said like, Joe needs to run, but Hunter's gonna be a problem for him.

And I texted it to him and he was like I'm gonna be the reason He either doesn't run or I'm gonna be the reason he loses if he does You know just self-deprecating stuff, but yeah Narcissism yeah, some negative Yeah, well what else I mean I there's yeah, it's quite exhausting. It's so yeah, I mean, it's a very interesting. It's interesting to be like a footnote. Yeah. I mean, the podcast, I mean in like the narrative of the Biden saga. I remember when I was back in New York and he had gone to Massachusetts for another attempt

at rehab and I was trying not to be in touch with him so much because I just knew it was bad news. But I obviously still was reaching out every now and then. I remember listening to the podcast and being like, this is, whatever you guys were talking about, I thought was really interesting. And it was like the type of thing that I would be like, what do you think about this?

Or da da da da. And I, you know, I knew you guys were cool. So I was like, he needs to know about it. And they're like two hot girls, so he'll love it. But yeah, I mean, he was very interested in, you know, cultural things. The zeitgeist. Yeah, the zeitgeist for sure. I'm such a people pleaser, I'm like, oh my god, he must have heard us say horrible things about his father. It's so mean and bad. If you did, he probably would have been like, you know, I understand her point in some way.

I'm happy for dad because he seems like in his lane and moisturized and thriving. Thriving. Yeah. Yeah. Thriving, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think whatever he's doing now, like, if he's sober, then it's the right thing for him to be doing. Definitely. You know?

Definitely. But, you know, it feels weird that it's been so long, honestly. Like, Joe was the one who made me realize that it was like seven years ago that I met him. It's just so weird. Like where I don't know if I'm just getting older and time's going faster. Yeah. If that's it. But I don't know if it was like something that, you know, stalled me emotionally and then it was COVID or whatever. Yeah. Do you feel like it was a formative relationship? No, because what formed from it? It's just like a lesson learned. I don't know. Well, that's not nothing. No, totally. It will be revealed. Yeah. I mean, it made me realize what

I do really want, which is my future, which is like a healthy relationship. Yeah. Well, okay. In that article, you talked about how, um, because of your association with Hunter Biden, it's like kind of a defining element of your identity. And that's what other people see you as. And you haven't had like a serious relationship since. Well, I had two smaller relationships that didn't last so long and it was like I just knew that they had negative weird feelings about it. I had one there was one guy I was seeing who was like he would make

these digs about the fact that there were still photos and my phone and my iCloud from that and I was like you know I never you know I have all my photos in my phone and iCloud from before that and after and yeah you know the phone does the like memories thing or whatever I feel like once or twice like a photo and he'd be like judging me for the fact that it was there and I mean but that he probably would have felt that way about any of your Exes yeah true, but then at the same time if yeah if there was any mention of it. It was like oh She's like you know

There's something gross about her that you know she's you know Not doing you know not fully deleting all things, memories from her life or whatnot. And the other guy I was seeing was very into like politics and like had like MSNBC on like all the time. So yeah, I feel like it was just really hard for them to not in some way judge me. Yeah, but do you feel like your inability so far to have a serious relationship, should it be something you want, is because these men that you meet do like a cursory Google search

and they're like, no, or is it because you're afraid of getting hurt and are still kind of cautious and cagey? Yeah probably both I think you know it's been hard to really like put myself out there because it takes a lot of work to go and meet people anyway. I got set up on a date with a guy by my stepdad. And we went on one date. It was good, it was fine. Second date, good, fine. Third date, I invited him to my house and he realized because he knows me through my stepdad that he didn't know my last name. And so he asked me my name and then I remember on my TV it had my like

Google YouTube TV thing so I know it said my name there. And I remember on my TV it had my Google YouTube TV thing, so I know it said my name there. And I eventually told him that I didn't think it was working and I wished him the best, but I don't know if this, you know, whatever. And as soon as I said that, he said, I understand blah, blah, blah. And then the next day he was like, you know I Googled you and blah blah blah blah blah.

And just, you know, he was angry I guess. He sent me a bunch of texts about that. Yeah. Yeah. So it's kind of nice also to, that's why I also didn't, for a while didn't want that Instagram account back because it was nice to meet people

and know that they couldn't like look me up that way. Yeah. But I mean, at this point, it's at this point, I have to just go full throttle and just find someone who, you know, can understand it in some way. For sure. I guess who like accepts it. Yeah. Yeah. can understand it in some way. For sure. I guess. Who like accepts it, yeah. Yeah, accepts it. Also, it was actually a long time ago now.

Yeah. Now that I think about it. Yeah, and it was like any other, you know, unfortunately, yeah, we've all had toxic relationships, but they weren't a matter of like public record and court testimony. Yeah. And.

But they will be now. Yeah, I mean. Do you think we're all like hacking do you think hunters is sex addict now I mean well if you count the a I'm when you knew him when I knew him yes hundred. 100% Yeah. I mean, I told him that plainly. I said, you know, it's, it's not just a crack addiction and alcohol addiction, but there's a sex addiction to and I think it's all just like filling of a void of well, it's just an adrenaline addiction. Yeah. And he did say particular is good enough. Yeah, you like you milk it like I understand that perspective. I understand their mindset like you go to the farthest like extremity and nothing ever hits and you

keep looking for more and more. It's I understand like the mechanism of drug addiction and that applies across the board to every aspect of your life. Yeah, I mean the thing that used to like at first Really kind of hit me with okay. This is There's you know, no future. This is not good for me, you know, there's yeah You know turning point was realizing like what once we were in LA for a while and I had started going to my factories He had his car out there and pretty much every morning I would wake up around 10 or 11 and he'd be up and within an hour of me being awake he would crash and fall asleep and I would take his car and go

to my factories and do my meetings and buy my materials or whatever and come back by like five and he'd still be asleep. And you know he'd wake up and then I'd say okay do you want to go get dinner? Do you want to do something? Blah blah blah and you know more and more as it go on he would just leave and go places and come back with strangers that he'd meet and I realized he would rather spend time with strangers than with me and I think it was just At a certain point he realized like he didn't want to be reminded with the fact that I knew Like yeah, he didn't want to confront the chief witness. Yeah failure as a person Yeah, and it made him feel so much better to be around as a new person every night

Who is completely charmed by him, right? and You know, I would constantly You know see him you know, I would constantly, you know, see him, you know, going out to go to the hotel bar and go and chat up the bartender and, and ignore me, you know, to do that every single time he got like a new lease on life. Exactly. That's like the nature of any sort of addiction, not just drug addiction, but also sex addiction. Any addiction to me is like narcissism. And I don't mean that in like a pejorative way. I mean it in like the clinical sense that like,

you develop a resentment toward the people who know you the best because they see you for what you are. And even if they love you more than anything, and they're willing to accept your like failures and follies, it's too painful to measure up because it's too painful because you hate yourself so much. Yeah. Damn. Yeah. Yeah. It's dark. Yeah. But lesson learned. I mean, like it's, it's really like helped me understand like what like really strong and healthy

people really look like. And even though I don't feel like... I've gotten to a point where I have found romance for myself in a healthy way moving forward. It's like every time I do, you know, meet someone or see people in a relationship and like see like, you know, maturity and healthy, you know, communication and like real like love, it's like very clear by being how different, you know, that situation was like. And it's like sacrifice and compromise. Always, yeah. It's like always just like really like give and take and sacrificing compromise and.

Well, it's funny because I asked, I was like so brain dead leading up to this and didn't do any preparation and was like really ashamed and I asked a bunch of my guy friends, I was like, do you have questions for Zoe? And all of them were like, is she single? I am single. But I don't go out of my house that much and I need to. Yeah. My new thing is that I'm learning how to golf. Okay. Yeah. I know. Well I love the outfits. Wait you should do a golf line. I know.

Well I found an amazing golf line in Palm Beach that's actually made for like tweens and teens, but it's got like, it's called Marie Bertie. Marie Bertie. I don't know. I found it at the PGA golf store down there and that it just has like cool, like crazy prints and flowers.

Sailor brand. No, I actually am quite like interested in the way the sport works. It's like very yeah technical math math like scientific like you have to measure the wind and you have to measure like and take you know try to figure out okay if this is happening then I have to like change the way I hit the ball this way and I love that you don't break a sweat. I love that it's like, it is kind of tough. It's relaxing, it's very Jewish.

Yeah, it's chill, you can like smoke weed, you can smoke cigars, you play music on the golf cart. And then- Do you have a set of clubs? No, not yet. I only took a couple lessons. I don't have, but what I was gonna say is I took a couple lessons

and the guy who gave me the lessons told me last week that I'm now like good enough to go to the range by myself And try so the the plan was to like get dressed up Go there and you know any guy that wants to give me a lesson. I really want to learn You know, any guy that wants to give me a lesson, I really want to learn. That's really smart. But I was actually like sore from it, like it felt like a workout the day after. I believe you. But it was like cool that I didn't like get all gross and sweaty from it. Yeah, right. Low impact. Low impact. Yeah.

I was a lot of core work. Yeah. Well, it's like it's like a move and a way that I had to bend my knees, bend my back over, position my body that I hadn't done before. So it felt really hard and uncomfortable and unnatural. And so the days after I did it, I was really sore, which felt cool. And you're working on homewares. Yeah. I've built up Elizabeth's brand.

And we work with Bergdorf's, and we work with some other retailers. We've sold stuff at various stores in the Hamptons and in Dallas. I don't know. There's something that I love about making those kinds of products but I also I'm still kind of just unsure because I want to make all sorts of things. I think there was like a shift for me where I got kind of disillusioned with like starting a fashion brand because it just seemed so difficult and like took so much money and felt like okay there's hundreds of fashion brands like why do we need like

another one and they like appear and disappear in the course of like one or two years it's crazy yeah lingerie is you know, windy. Yeah. But so much of it sucks. Well, I will sell my stuff eventually. My friends told me I just need to do like a pop-up for a weekend in the city. Like I don't have that much stuff. I've got like 200 pieces of each style.

But it just kind of felt like redundant and it felt really hard to have a know, have a profitable business making clothes. And as a consumer, I felt like I wasn't buying clothes as much anymore as I used to. I feel like everybody just buys like vintage stuff. Yeah, that's what I do. And I don't know, I think there's something like more like art that's, you know, for the home, like whether it's decorative objects or things that you buy to hang on your wall or I just am really into this idea of like collecting things that hold interesting meaning and value and it's

the type of thing where like you don't use it like you don't wear it down like clothes and you know when you make clothes somewhere it's the way that things are made these days is not the same like things get worn out really fast they have like a way you know shorter lifespan and I don't know there's something about making objects that just feels more special to me. But I'm, you know, here in New York, I don't know, it's like in New York, I've just been like around people making a lot of fine art,

which feels more like the process that I want to do, where it's like you can take months to make something, and it's just one piece, and can assign it like a high value which feels like the way that I've worked because I I'm not good at working fast like I like to just take as much time as I want which is not very like smart and efficient. But that's how it always used to be. There's a market for that. Yeah. It's artisanal, it's bespoke. That's like the reasonable normal way to make art. It's like you was a market. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah artisanal is bespoke like the reasonable normal way to make art It's like you take your time. Yeah, figure out your vision and it feels like more true Like you don't have to force it to be you know

Yeah at a certain price point and I just have to move fast like fashion I was like after a certain point, you know, I was like, how do people make two collections a year? It's like I can't like how do people make two collections a year? It's like I can't like how do you make one collection a year? It's like I'm not even buying clothes that often anymore, and I don't know many people who are. But you know I think especially just like over the last couple years in my whole life, like I I've wanted to make a lot of different things. I am I want to make I actually so I did make a couple you know as the small line of stuffed animals

which I'm sure I'm really curious about. I'm sure Leo would love them. I'm very curious yeah. And I made like you know sweaters for my dog. I want to I made some dog beds and toys and like I don't know there's something about like the things that I'm making right now that's really like wholesome and like yeah childish which is really funny to think about to going from like Weedslut to making like kids stuff. But at the same time like it's also very authentic. That's another funny thing. Yeah yeah and

like the Weedslut stuff was also very me. Yeah. Yeah, but it was in a way, even though it was called Weed Slut, which might give some people pause, was very like wholesome and childlike. Which made it very difficult to have serious conversations. Like every time I talked to someone seriously

about what I was working on, it was just, I couldn't not say that without it being like right awkward and weird and there was even like an innocence that we'd some projects and there's innocence to me I mean I feel like it was like about you know do well do you feel like you've gotten any like blowback because I haven't seen it personally, but I'm sure you have. We're like article, like in general, just like being like Hunter Biden's girlfriend or mistress. Like you would think that that would lead to accusations of you being like a slut

or a whore. But I haven't. Strangely, I have not seen much of that. Yeah. Which seems to suggest to me that there's like some justice in the world because people can like sense that you I don't think yeah, I don't think I've had like person blow back like to my face or seen it but it's kind of like an undercurrent like kind of Just feeling like how is somebody gonna understand something more serious about me, you know when when that was there. And you know, I think the dancing thing, like, it was something that, you know, had to do

with the fact that I was really young and like I really did like I still do see like a value like I learned a lot from the experience but it's something like once you understand what it is it's it's really not something that has a long lifespan because it's really it's really hard on you emotionally and physically and all that kind of stuff. Well it's funny because when you meet girls who are like strippers or dancers or whatever, a lot of the time you're surprised because they're not really craven or jaded and they're like quite innocent like Mariah. Oh yeah. Yeah I mean those the when I first started dancing like I expected the

women in you know the club in the locker room to be like vicious and competitive. Vicious, competitive, degenerate, like to be like chaotic, but they were like really like maternal and wholesome and would bring their like super healthy lunches and dinners and just kind of the way that they interacted with each other and- They're reading their K-Punk anthology between shifts. Snacking on carrots. Yeah, snacking on carrots.

It was kind of like we all just knew what we had to do to make money. And like it was like, you know, most for pretty much all of them, it was like it was a joke to them. It was like it wasn't there wasn't a seriousness to money by being you know basically entertainer and companion. It was like what I tell most people is like when you're a dancer you have to pretend like every single night is the best night of your life. And you have to pretend like every single night is or every single customer that you meet is like the most special guy the special the most special night or you know our and you have to be the person who's gonna give them that experience it's like New Year's every

single night and you know yeah that's completely exhausting and and everybody who works there is like no this sucks. Like I don't want to pretend that it's the best night. And it's so draining that way. But I imagine that's like what it is for a lot of people who work in like nightlife, like DJs and... Well I bet we talked about this last time. I was a karaoke hostess. Same thing. Same thing where it's like I have to literally pretend you're like in love with someone and singing Wonderwall and looking into a

Korean business. And pretend like tonight is gonna be the best night of your life. Yeah. And then tomorrow you go there again and let's do shots and yeah. Exactly. And yeah it's really it's not sustainable. And after, you know, coming back from LA and with Hunter, it was like, the last thing I could do also was like, pretend that like I was like, you know, ha gonna have the best night of my life. Um, and I mean, I don't even go out to bars and drink and go, you know, to events and things, the regular things the way that I did six, seven years, seven, eight years ago, because it's too much. I would much rather knit and go to a movie and like,

all that stuff, that is way more fulfilling to me now. But I don't know what the point of this, what we were talking about, that was like gonna bring it back to something. Yeah, I forget what the question was. I don't remember either. Yeah. I don't know.

I feel like you, by virtue of being like handy and a craftswoman, should just be the next Martha Stewart, because there's like an opening in the market. I would love to. I have to be very vicious. And you're a Polish descent. She's like cutthroat, though. I didn't watch the whole documentary, but she was like, I remember seeing the clip where she was like, it's hard for me to date someone because I really don't care about their feelings. I know, I know. You're much warmer. Yeah, I do care about people's feelings.

I know, that's true. So it's hard, but like, no, she's very, very smart, I think, you know. But I understand her position because she's like an older woman, and it's like past the point of like being like youthful and sensitive and like caring about sentimental things and you just like understand that you have a very limited yeah and there are certain other things that mean more to you yeah yeah well yeah I would like to do a lot of things you know I would like to get rid of all the wheat slut stuff. I'd like to sell it. Just sell it. Sell it. Sell it. I'll buy some. Let me know.

Yeah, I'm gonna do a really lame Squarespace website and just take some pictures. I'll be a bummer. Yeah, my friend Phoebe is like, if you just get a pop-up for like two days, I know it's like people will just probably get through it. It's not that much stuff. I just, there's something that it's just like, I can't look at it sometimes. Yeah. But no, I mean, at this point,

I didn't really talk too much today about some of the like really crazy, just like scenes that I can remember from this experience with Hunter. And honestly, like even when I was living it, I was like, this is so insane. Like this is like something in a movie. And you know, I hope one day that I can, not one day,

one day soon that I can pay off my lawyers and just make a little bit of money off of this. And I think that there's a lot more that people would find entertaining from what I have seen. For sure. Yeah. No, that's very layered. For sure. Yeah. No, that's very layered. Very layered.

But things were constantly happening. It was day to day. Did you see a Nora? I didn't. I need to see it. Let's see this up your alley. I have heard people say that the story is similar. I know that she meets someone

and gets married from the strip club. Like an old dark as this. Yeah. Yeah Yeah, I mean it was like out of the club into an adventure I guess And it moved, you know across so many locations and scenes and with different characters There were so many like weird and strange people that ended up into those you know moments because of the types of people he would connect with. Yeah in his memoir he talks

about some person named like bicycles. Yeah I know her real name. Okay yeah yeah. She lived with him in DC. The memoir was like it had details like that but it was also fairly neutered like reading it you're kind of like okay obviously everything I'm reading has been like approved. It's very grazing over yeah the detail like just like the kind of it was very generalizing. I bet it's much more fun. Yeah she would call him all the time and he had other people you know like there you know we met like a bunch of people in LA within that first month couple weeks and he would get stressed out because all these new people he would meet would start

calling him and being like you know I'm like you know how I was talking about looking for a house like will you come with me on this tour like I want your opinion like people wanted to be his friend and he would start getting stressed out that all these new people like were asking like for his like would you describe him as people-pleasing oh yeah yeah. That's tough. But also it was like a kind of like, you know, it was like an altruism thing. Like he just wanted to be something to the people that he met

that would help them. Yeah. He wanted to be like good in somebody's esteem. Yeah, and as soon as you know, it would be like once it got to you know Real for him. He would then go find somebody else like yeah Yeah, there was one woman we met at the Chateau who was like wanting to move to LA and he told her he would go like look at all these houses with her and she like really loved him and we all like hung out at the hotel together and like she would keep texting me like when are you like

I'm going to tour. Can you come right now? And he's like now she wants me like this other woman who was a house mom at the strip club crazy girls in LA He ended up bringing her back to the hotel. She's like an older woman and all of a sudden like she's like my house apparently somebody broke in like or my house is on fire or something and it was all the way in Long Beach and he gives her the keys to his car and then she doesn't come back for two days. And the next thing is yeah it's just constant. It was constant. And as that went on, I realized I was like, what am I doing here? Yeah, I was like, yeah, it's too crazy. Because he was like a boundary-less person.

Totally. Who couldn't bear the consequences of a lack of boundaries. And he just wanted to, you know, but the other thing is he wanted to get to know people, like he liked getting to know people. As soon as he would start talking to someone, he like really wanted to understand them. I think that that's the other thing that like defines all drug addicts who are of higher IQ or whatever. It's that they really want to, like they have a death wish. They don't exactly

want to die, but they want to disappear and not feel themselves anymore and want to get involved. Want to live through these other people. Yeah. Which is why they are at times such good friends and such good listeners. Yeah, yeah. You know, I also think like, like he is a creative like me at heart and there's something like, you know, introspective and like he would come up with ideas that, you know, I thought were interesting and that's just like a type of personality that I really like understood and I think that is known to be something

that's like you know associated with being susceptible to addiction. They're like very porous and they have high self-awareness and like are fundamentally in tune to their own failures and shortcomings. Yeah and they're also just like looking for like beauty and like looking for something that is really authentic and that feels like good and yeah I get it. Yeah which is why like... But they can't they can't like acknowledge the fact that like reality I mean this is like something that I think we all struggle with is like you can't acknowledge the fact that like reality I mean this is like something that I think we all struggle with is like you can't acknowledge the fact that reality is much more disappointing than you want it to be. Like you're like an eternal

idealist. Definitely. Relatable. Yeah and like you know I don't know you know how he ended up making paintings but I feel you know, I saw a photo of his studio and I love interior design. I love seeing how people set up their creative spaces. And when I saw it, I was like, you know, I'm happy like I did envision a space like that for him. For you. And for me.

Did you find it interesting that his practice also included holding a glass tube up to his mouth? I don't know how he found that. But I was like it's because he loves smoking crack. He needed oral fixation. Yeah. Yeah he needed that. So he would make the work through also like a similar tool. Who gave him that idea? I don't know. That was the voice of God. Yeah. I just like. Makes sense.

You draw inspiration from your life. Yeah. Yeah. I just do think he should write though. I don't know. He had like a bit more development in that. He can and he should and he will. Yeah.

Yeah. Hope he does. Yeah. Thanks for coming on the show, Zoe. Are we done? Yeah, we were over two hours. Yeah, I could keep going. What, I mean?

No, I mean, I'm depleted. You know? Can I ask an un-PG question? Yeah. What was his favorite sex position? Ha ha ha. I have to think about it. Did you have sex every day?

What's yours? Piledriver, she said last time. I said that on the last. But has that changed? It's very novel. I mean, it's just very exciting. I don't think it's something that you know I would do regularly. Yeah, yeah for sure. I think it was like like face down with my legs together you know. I call that the coming position.

It was something like that. I don't know. I can't really think about it. Yeah, yeah, I don't. It was like a lot. Yeah. You guys have sex like every day. Yeah, during that time period. Yeah. And something Joe asked me about, which is so funny is like, he was like, what do you think about the fact that like, you know, he has all of these like photos on his laptop and like, why was he taking all those like selfies and like photographing himself and you know, like

what, what do you think? He's an artist. Yeah. What do you think about the fact that he's like, uh, you know, some form of a sex icon or whatever. And I was just like, you know, I think when sex icon or whatever and I was just like you know I think when I first met him at that time that was something that was very exciting to me was like being an exhibitionist or for you know voyeur and

like seeing myself in that way and I liked to you know take photos of myself and I think almost immediately we kind of like clicked on that and it excited him. And like I remember noticing like a period where like almost all of a sudden he was just like taking selfies of himself everywhere. Like the photos of him in the gay AF t-shirt from the Chateau. That was like those were that shirt was from the Hustler store. Same time he bought the Addicted shirt. And like I don't know all of a sudden I just started seeing like mirror selfies in his phone all the time and I just said to him I was like you're such a millennial now

He just like really was it sounds like you're influential. I think so in his practice. I Don't know if he would have like had all that stuff on his laptop. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. It felt like it made him feel empowered in some way. Which also probably wasn't like good for him in the end. Well. But now I don't know. He wanted people to see him naked so they did. That's true. That's the thing about exhibitionists. Yeah, it's like the naughty thrill of being caught is part of it. Yeah.

It's like the main part. It's kind of like the same thing I thought of when I heard about the laptop being left at the store. It's like you wanted to get caught. I was like, of course he did. Like in somewhere deep down or not deep down, like he wanted to just let it all out because it was just so to see and be seen. Yeah. And like, it would have just been worse if it was something for somebody to find out.

Yeah. And then like part of him just wanted it to be exposed, I think. Right, rather than living with the fear of like... Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, so when people, you know, ask me like, oh, like, do you think he really did leave his laptop and like not pick it up? I was like, 100%. Yeah, he had multiple laptops. One time he left it at an Apple store. And when we went to LA, he asked me to get my friend to go to the Apple store, pick it up and mail it to us in LA. And that was just only one of them. So he definitely lost and lose.

Mm hmm. Yeah. Totally, totally not careful in any way. This inhibited fully behavior due to drug use He wanted to be seen yeah, you know Sure, but at least it's all out there and now he's Pardoned so he can just go on with his life. I guess yeah, and I'm gonna go in with mine I'm gonna like on with mine. I'm gonna like, you know, understand.

I am not worried about you in the least. I'm not either. Oh, thanks. You are, yeah. I have so many things to do. I do have a lot of things that I am excited about working on. And yeah, I just feel like it's better that I just like tell people what they want to know

about this and move on. You know? Totally. Instead of like be like, oh, it's a secret. Like, I don't want to talk about it, you know? Right. Or being like, yeah, just like a daily mail headline. Yeah.

Yeah. I like need to build up that Google search. Yeah. I need to start putting other things. Now this episode will come out and that'll be up there on the Google search instead of Daily Mail Is there anything you want to plug Keep a lookout for when I do a pop-up to get rid of all this stuff in my apartment and

You know, hopefully one day there will be a movie about all this stuff and I can get somebody cool to play me and you'll hear a lot. Emma Roberts. Ooh, I love that. I love her. Yeah, no, there are some very funny scenes that I can think of. It's going to be Rachel Sennett. Oh my God.

Yeah, I love it. She could do it. She's got the nose. It's going to be Rachel Sennett. Oh my God. Yeah, I love it. She could do it. She's got the nose. She's got the nose. She's the most Jewish coded non-Jewish person ever. Yeah, she's not Jewish, right? She's not Jewish. Yeah, there was, I'll say one more thing.

There was one night that we went out to, it was the night we went to Luciana, actually. And we went there for like a dinner at like midnight. And then one of his drug dealers like invited us to Tao, the night we went to Luciana actually, and we went there for like a dinner at like midnight, and then one of his drug dealers like invited us to Tao, the nightclub. And so we went there, and when we got to the bar, we were like dancing, whatever, we got to the bar, and we were waiting for drinks,

and these two Russian guys came up to us, and gave us drinks, and drank them, and I felt fine, fine and like shortly after it was like three in the morning we went back to the Four Seasons and he was like I feel drunk like I never feel drunk like and he got super paranoid that the Russian guys did something to his drink and I was just like no you're crashing like you've been on too many drugs. You've been drinking vodka for probably 48 hours And Yeah, the the various characters are just like and it's just like too many random like things that are just not very

believable honestly that I can think of so Yeah, I've written it all down At one point and like during the trial like before the trial it was like trying to make sure I like remember things that they were They were like I was trying to make sure I remembered certain things so that like I didn't say something that wasn't correct on the stand right So yeah TV people you know. Keep a lookout. Write me an email. But yeah thanks for having me on. Thanks so much for coming back. Yeah this is really,

it was fun. I hope it was like different from your regular programming. Definitely. Well, who was the last guest that you had on? I forget. I don't remember. It's been a while. Been a while. Yeah.

Okay. So it'll be like a fun change. Yeah, yeah. We haven't had a guest in a bit. And I think the girls and Kates will definitely appreciate this one. The straight guys too, honestly. Yeah. For everyone.

See you now. We'll see you now. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye straight guys too honestly. For everyone. See you now. See you now. you