Red Scare - Nothing Left w/ Evan Barker

Episode Date: August 3, 2026

Fundraiser turned author Evan Barker joins the ladies to discuss her new book Nothing Left: Confessions of a Democratic Operative.

Do you guys ever add sound effects to the show? No. No. Sometimes we play a clip of something on Dosh's phone. Yeah. I hold the phone up to the mic up to my phone. We're back. We're back.

We have a very special guest today. The author of Nothing Left, Confessions of a Democratic operative. Evan Barker, welcome to Red Scare. Hi. Thank you for saying Democratic. not Democrat. Well, that's what it says on the book. I know, but all week I've been going on shows and they're like confessions of a Democrat

operative. Well, you were a Democrat operative. Yeah, but I think it's like a partisan thing. Uh-huh. Where people say Democrat. Yeah. Instead of Democratic. And democratic.

It's like a Rush Limbaughism or something. Yeah. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Congratulations. Yeah. In a whirlwind media tour. I know.

Last stop. Yeah. New York. So thank you. Congrats on the book. I know. I can't believe I wrote a book. That's crazy. Yeah. And it's number two in political books, right? Number one. It was number two last time I checked. So now it's number one.

Now it's number one. Congratulations. They're saying there's a chance we could make the list. The bestseller list? Yeah. It seems like a good candidate for it. Fucking crazy. So what and why, why, why did, why did you write a book? So should I just tell you my story? Tell us, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know you read it, but.

Yes. We did our research, yes. You did. Yeah, so I grew up in the middle of the country and was born into a family that was like mostly Democrats. And the first book I ever looked. learned to read was my president, Bill Clinton, when I was five. Wow. You know, it's cute.

And I just worked for the Democratic Party because I was born into a Democratic Union family. And I was also born with a rare lung disease. It's more like a cillia disease, but that's kind of too complicated sometimes to explain to people. Uh-huh. I think I get it. You get it. Yeah.

Yeah. But it's like where the cilia don't move. So they're immodal throughout your body. So it affects like your sinuses. Fertility, like lungs, everything. So when I was a kid, it was really hard for me to get health insurance sometimes. Because of the pre-existing condition. Right.

Even as a child, because sometimes my parents were broke. And it kind of had like a messy upbringing. Like, you know, my mom was married. She's never going to listen to this. Mobile. Was she married six times? She was married six times. Okay, I was wondering because in the book you're like, she sold all six of her wedding rings to like put me through college and or pay for my insurance.

I don't remember which one it was, but I was like, wait a second. Yeah. Maybe she had like a really generous husband. She was, my mom was like addicted to love. That's. Yeah, yeah. Real. She was hot too.

I mean, who is that? She was beautiful. She was like, I think I describe her in the book as like a dead. A bomb shell. A bum shell. Yeah. Sydney swiny. Yeah.

She was, you know, have you guys ever seen the movie Mermaids with Cher? Yeah. That was kind of like my childhood. Wow. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And so you were very bullish on Obama.

Yeah. Because he was like, I'm going to give you health care. Yeah. But I guess, well, my question is in terms of like your upbringing and your values, being a Democrat was sort of in your blood because everybody. your family was nearly yeah everybody yeah yeah so did you feel like a sense of like personal um like drive or motivation to work in politics um honestly like if i'm being totally honest it was like i found the Obama campaign when i was a senior in high school i don't know how old you

are but we're probably i think we're the sameish age i'm 35 i'm 40 so yeah we're like Wait, when's your birthday? October 27th. You're a Libra? Scorpio. Scorpio. Cool. Scorpio rising.

Oh, wait, what am I? I have a lot of Scorpio. I'm a Pisces. You're a Pisces. And I don't remember. I don't think I could vote. Okay. Were you born in 90?

Yeah, but I turned 18, like a week before the election. Yeah. So, yeah. That was like an episode in your book where I were like, I could finally cast my vote. for Obama. Yeah. So yeah.

So I, yeah, I felt like this, it was in my blood. Actually, the original title the book was going to be born blue.

Because I was like born blue, literally. Yeah. Because I was sick when I was a kid. And then, and then, and then born into a, you know,

a blue collar democratic family. And so that was part of it. And then I just, like, this is very earnest. Like I just really wanted health insurance and neither of my parents got to go to college. My dad actually didn't graduate high school because he hit his vice principal in the face. Wow.

And he went. Yeah, both your dad and your grandfather had kind of a checkered past that you mentioned a bit. Yeah, a little bit. Do you relate to Roseanne? There's a discourse on Twitter now about growing up working class. And a lot of people who grew up that way were like, yes, this is like so relatable. And then a lot of other people were like, well, I was blue collar, but this is like an ugly and unflattering depiction. I think it's like, yeah, there's parts of it that are accurate, you know.

But, yeah, she. So I wanted to go to college. So I just wanted health insurance. And then why did you study? English. Okay. Like nothing that could really help me. get a job or anything.

And so, but I did really good with the Obama campaign. Like Michelle Obama even mentioned me in a speech at some point. So you had a real just aptitude. Yeah, I was really good at it. Political communicating. Yeah. You were like an incredible fundraiser. Well, later, later.

But yeah. And so then when I got out of college, so I was working all the way through college, waitressing. I worked all these crazy jobs. I worked at like, Hilton Garden End as a breakfast server in San Diego when I left the Midwest. I worked as a toilet maid. That's a special kind of maid?

I thought they only had that in like Latin American country. No, it was like I got hired at this cleaning company and I was the new girl. And so all of the other maids just made me the toilet made like. It was like the new girl It's like a hazing ritual Yeah So those jobs sucked And so after college

Took me a while to finish Donald Trump got elected In 2016 Right And I was like oh my God I have to stop working at hotels And in restaurants And I need to go back to politics

And so I ended up Leaving San Diego And kind of like moving to New York, fast imperiously. I broke up with someone too at that time, but I don't really talk about it. Yeah, it was pretty remarkable how in your book, the personal stuff, really you don't get into that. Yeah.

It's nice. It's refreshing, yeah. Is it? Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Do you think some people kind of like moan on and on about? Well, I mean, women, especially.

Women love to write about their, like. their trauma trauma and romances and stuff and I guess you have to bring up your family background and your lung disorder because it clarifies the story right yeah yeah so in the Obama era things were good I mean yeah I think so I had the health care it was just sort of status quo at that time right I mean I had the health care I was not really activated by the Wall Street movement You didn't occupy? I did. I was too busy working and like trying to finish school and not get sick and fighting with my boyfriend and stuff like that.

And so. You didn't want to live in the autonomous zone. Were you in New York at that point? No, but it was kind of all over. I occupied Oakland. But you were like a Bernie crat initially. No. So I was Obama.

And then after college, I moved out here. Friends of friends met these people that lived in Bushwick. Yeah, likely place for them to be. Oh, my God. I was like on another planet, you guys. Coming from like the Midwest of San Diego, it was so scary. We don't. We're not allowed to go there.

No, I haven't been back in like half a decade. more. I refused to set foot in Bushwick. So I would go there and like my roommates they were they were like I think they were like trust fund kids because they didn't really have jobs

like one of them was she was in like a David Lynch cover band. It was like a Twin Peaks cover band. That's all she did and she was an actress and the other guy was

like a drummer and he would always be having band practice every night and like my room did not have a window or had a window like a big hole in the wall so I could never like block the noise and they would show like Twin Peaks once a week and I was just I didn't even know what Twin Peaks was this was like in 2017

and I would just like hang out there and Blair like Randy Travis music Did you like Twin Peaks because it's kind of a Midwesty. Well, is it? Or I know, I guess it's the Pacific Northwest. But David Lynch is very Midwestern. Yeah. No, I, I, in his temperament. My husband showed it to me later. And then I was like, okay. Yeah. It's good. But it was just really, it was a weird living there was really strange. And, um, well, that's a big motif recurring in your book is like being in these progressive circles and finding yourself to be sort of the least privileged of, uh,

the people in your milieu. Right. Yes. And them, them expecting you to check your privilege for being white and being like,

wait a minute. Constantly. Constantly. All the time. And, yeah. So then I ended up working for this woman named Karen

in New Jersey. Is that her real name? No. Okay. She's the one person whose name I changed. And you had to. I had to for legal reasons.

Understood. But, yeah, and her husband was like, he was a part of the financial crisis in 2008, and that was a really wacky experience going over to their mansion in New Jersey. And he would be, like, dressed up as a magician with a top hat and a cape. And she was, like, wearing her pussy hat, hat. and her daughter was like blogging, like trying to get young women to blog about social justice issues. And I was just trying to. This was in New York or New Jersey?

New Jersey. But at this point in like I guess 2016, 2017, when like Bernies are making waves. You were working with Hilldog. How much of a political consciousness did you have? I mean, I just followed the party line at that point. Yeah. I was just kind of like, you know, Obama gave me health care. I like Democrats.

You know, I didn't really... I was a centrist, basically. I was a centrist, yeah. And I was, yeah, I liked Hillary. Like, before Obama, I wanted Hillary to win. Like, I was really late to the Bernie train, actually. Um, I kind of missed it. I don't know why or how, but...

But essentially, you had, like, um, I guess political acumen or political talent, but no political awareness yet, just on the strength of your, like, um, personal story. Personality and, like, uh, whatever talents. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I had no idea how to do fundraising. I just kind of like got offered the job through somebody that I knew on the Clinton campaign when I briefly worked for her during her primary. And he thought I would do good at it. And I did really good at it. What do you think it is about you that made you so competent? I think it's a couple of things. I think it's because I really enjoyed taking the money of really rich people. You say this in your

I got a thrill. I really, I was like, I don't know, like an adrenaline rush to be like, yeah, give me your money, bitch. And then it was also, I think, because a lot of the people that I would work with, they kind of had more of a waspy attitude about money. So they were kind of like, they found it to be impolite to maybe talk about or to be aggressive. And you could be direct. And I was very direct. I would look at them and I'd be like, scrappy. Yeah.

I know you have it. I'll be honest when I was reading the book and you were talking about how good you were at fundraising. Like I generally when people make claims about themselves, I'm like, yeah, we'll see, but I totally believe it now. Yeah. Did you believe it more towards the end of the book? Well, at some point you started naming like facts and figures, so, you know, you can't argue with that. Yeah. Because I think that there's this misconception about fundraising, political fundraising, especially, where people think if you're a fundraiser, it must mean you're just raising from tons of

of people you know or something personally. Yeah, but you're just cold calling. Cold calling, like the co-founder of Facebook and like the Sorosos and just, you know. Well, I like the two anecdotes that you gave, the one about Tom Girardi, Erica Jane's husband from Real Housewives of Beverly Hills, who's like now in jail for defrauding the victims. of like plane crashes that he was representing in class action suits. Is that correct?

Yeah. And you like kind of ran up on him on a street corner and he was like, oh, attractive young woman. Like I'll sign the check. Yeah. And then the other one, like the pro tip that you gave that like stood out to me was like calling lower wrong associates at law firms and pretending like asking for so smart. The head honcho and them putting you through without going to.

the secretary. They don't want to make a good impression. Yeah. Because I was, I was working at that point in time, I was helping progressives. We kind of skipped, but I got disillusioned by the establishment too because I felt like they were just anti-Trump. Like they didn't. And they just talked about abortion.

And I never really cared about that issue that much. The Democrats. Yeah, the Democrats. Abortion was never an animating issue for me at all. The resistance was very like pussy hat abortion centric. I didn't care about it. Like I was like, you know. And they had nothing.

really to like offer. Yeah and now that I'm a mother I'm like even more pro life actually but right yeah kind of what happens hate to say it but it's true yeah but um so yeah I got disillusioned I end up working for Bernie and then not sorry I ended up working for Bernie I ended up working in the Bernie the Justice Democrats yeah I was and then the left rising and then the left right and then I wrote I was like okay then it was the left rising and then through that you did something called the movement school. And you were teaching. It was kind of hard to keep track of all the acronyms, like the DCCC and the JCCC.

No, but so back to being scrappy. So because I was working with progressives, I had to like be scrappy and I had to come up with sort of unique ideas to get to basically trick donors and to giving to us. Because they didn't want like the progressives didn't have their own donors at that point. it was like we had to trick the Tom Gerardis of the world into giving to our like Bernie crack candidates. Does that make sense? And another way that I was probably a little different than other fundraisers is that I wasn't afraid

to use my feminine wiles. Yes, that comes across, yeah. And that'll get you far. It gets you so far. And because you can use it both like aggressively and then also you can like do like a ditsy oops. That's what I did. thing.

Like when I found Gerardi at that trial event, I was like, I went up to these random, these random guys, these trial attorneys and they were standing there and I put lipstick on and I buttoned the top part of my blouse. And I was like, hi. I'm so sorry. I just started a new job. And I fucked up. I forgot to register us.

Oh, yeah. And that's when everyone just showed you the schedule. Yeah. I was like, can you please give me the schedule. my boss is about to get here. And they were like, please, whatever you need. Yeah, and they just gave me everything, which then eventually led me to finding Mr. Girardi on the street.

Well, a question I had was like for a political tell-all, this book is shockingly low on like salacious sexual scandals. I don't know if you're at Liberty's days, but did you ever like sleep with any? Yeah. Like politicians? Yeah. and staff. I slept with a campaign manager that ended up becoming the head of a really important state party. I was wondering about that. He was my boss. Yeah. I, um, that happened. I mean, like the

Eric Swolewell stuff. Yes. Oh my God. Free Eric. Free him. Like I, I don't, okay, I didn't get into a lot of this, um, in the book. I, some of it. Some of it I cut. I might do some like op-eds, some follow-ups. But I saw, like, pretty heinous stuff behind the scenes from women and progressive politics. That has made me completely automatically question whenever there's, like, a politically opportune sex scandal. I don't just initially take it at face value. And so when I saw the Eric Swallow thing, like, I actually defended him online.

and got a lot of hate for that. But that's okay. But don't you think that's changing gradually? No. I guess that's still hit. No, no, no. You guys were in the middle of another Me Too. No.

We are. We are not a specific one or a generic one. No, so do you guys follow Michael Tracy? Of course. Of course. Friend and guests of God. I just got on a group chat with it. The only journalist I try.

You don't trust. Glenn Greenwald. No, no, I just glas too. Yeah, yeah. But no, so like there's this whole rise right now in the, in the Democratic Party, there's this woman named Cheyenne Hunt who is, she basically took down Swalwell.

And then she also took down Grant Platner. Okay. And she started a group called Reckoning Action. So like their whole thing is fighting. sex abusers and misogynist in politics. And so she's just... But what's the end goal? Because at a certain point when you're like,

you get into like how almost every political organization is already like fronted by women. Right, they are. So like what power do they even... What's left for them to usurp? I mean, I think they just want men to stop voting for them. I mean, maybe they want to banish men from public life. I don't know, but I think you're right that like Me Too is here to stay, but it's really sad

because at least when the original like movement or campaign was happening, there were some people who were true believers and they really did think that they were fighting for sexual justice for women. But I feel like nobody actually buys that now. And everybody knows like the emperor's new clothes. Everybody knows it's like shameless and opportunistic. But they do it anyway because that's how you get people to like kiss the ring. Well, you mentioned in your book with the Trump victory.

Yeah. Being haunted by the grab them by the pussy comment. Yeah. Well, yeah. So when I first, back in 2016, you know, I was still dumb. Of course. And yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Now I think it's like, well, yeah. Eugene Carroll. Now I'm just like, yeah, he's saying that celebrities get. You're a star. They let you do it. Yeah. If you're a celebrity, you get lots of girls.

Yeah. That's what he said. And it wasn't even at the time, like, I remember thinking, like, this isn't even mean or controversial. And it was like an old clip, obviously. But I guess because you seem like such a, like, savvy and on the ball person, like, in your private moments, like working for Democrats and then progressives, when you were faced with like, you know, as you point out, like the gender stuff, the sex stuff, like the soft on crime stuff, immigration stuff. Did you have, like, private moments of reckoning with yourself where you were like, wait a second. This doesn't add up. Yeah, all the time.

I started to feel like I was living a double life, honestly. I mean, I didn't even tell my husband how I was feeling. Yeah. I would just listen to you guys. Aw. Thank you. I'm serious. Like, I was like, it was weird.

And in 20, I think it was around 2020, 2021. My friend, Jess, shout out to Jess. Shout out Jess. Yeah. She was like, I haven't you need to listen to this podcast. They have voice. is like you. Which one?

Which one did she say you sounded like? Well, we have this. Dasha. Yeah, we have what kind of. People think we have like. But she, yeah, some people say we sound like. Yeah. Yeah.

And I was like, okay. You know, and so she, she sent it to me. And I think it was around the written house verdict when I started listening because I got fired from a client. Oh, yeah. Because I like she didn't fire the fundraising firm. She just fired me and my team because on the day of the Kyle Writtenhouse project, which I like honestly wasn't even paying attention to you guys.

You were busy. Yeah, I believe. And I had like eight clients. And I just sent her an email because she didn't want to call a list of dogs. Is this the Nabila? No. That's the one else. Jasmine Crockett?

No, no. Kina Collins. She just lost again. Okay. But, you know, she, I just sent her this email, like, hey, you need to call this list of donors. I know you don't want to, but we need to do it again because we need you to raise money. And I got, oh my God, everyone was like, what are you doing? Why are you telling her this that she's wrong?

Do you know what today is? Because you were like talking down to. I know, that's crazy. Well, remember when the story first dropped, it was crazy because. everybody was alleging on Twitter. I remember this vividly that he had mowed down some black people. And I was like, what? No, that's not true.

Like the truth just didn't matter at all. It was three white people. And even after the facts became known, people were still calling it like white supremacist violence. And I was like, but, oh, how? Like, that kind of stuff really, like, started to drive you nuts. So you were basically, like, taken down a peg for talking back to a strong black woman. Just, like, telling her to do her job. That's it. And doing my job. And it was like this big thing. And so that night I was like spinning out, you know, at that time, like, even though I was having these internal misgivings, it was like still, I was like really afraid. I took this out of the book actually because I wasn't sure if it would come out the right way. But I started going to a therapist around this time because I was struggling. I kind of have OCD and I was struggling not like the,

outer OCD but then you know, ruminating. Intrusive thoughts. Not so much anymore. Scorpio problems. Yeah. Wait, you're Scorpio?

Rising. But like I mentioned, I have like randomly like a lot of Scorpio placements. Right. Seathing about things. Yeah. And so I just, I started like,

just spedding out and wanting to talk to my therapist about it. And so she would walk me through these scripts. on my, like, where you would do scripts where I'd have to, like, walk through it. Um, what would happen. I might have one of them. Um, but I just, I couldn't, I felt like I couldn't speak sometimes on calls or even give my opinions on things, um, unless they directly related to like my skin color. Yeah.

And it was, it was really, really hard. Um, well, you would describe being. like on a call where you weren't even, you were like taking notes and someone made a remark that was like when we're in a safe space, we'll talk privately. A black space. A white girl's not here. A black space. Yeah.

But I just, I like remember I had this fear that I would be in a Zoom call talking to minorities or even other white people. And I would say, I would. I would, like, like. That's something. You'd crash out. Like Tourette's would take over me. That, you know, that I would, that I would say something that could be, I mean, just even correcting a black woman on the day of the written house verdict got me fired.

And so, yeah, I started walking through this script and I was like, I would say, like, I say something wrong. Uh-huh. And then, and then the video gets posted online and then it gets played on CNN. And then my boyfriend leaves me And then I end up alone And I'm under a bridge And we would just like kind of walk through it And I would be doing this every week at this time

And also listening to you guys In secret Like not even telling my husband And also listening to Tucker Carlson Yeah I remember encountering that part in the book Well that was also like the heyday of kind of like peak Karen punishment. Every day there was a video of some woman like

cowering and screaming and losing her mind and someone like filming her being like, what did you say? There was like we were just watching women like absolutely melt down for being like Karen. Yeah. I was just like I think the worst places to be during that time were probably in academia and Hollywood.

Politics and progressive politics. politics especially because the types of people that are drawn to progressive politics are like extremely like it's like the 0.1% of the wokenest types of people like malignant narcissists yeah malignant ethno narcissist describe it um and it was just it was really hard and they they all like so many of them especially when i was worked for this guy named sean king Uh-huh. Who's actually white, right? Do you know?

So I was, do you have a opinion either way? I would ask people, I would ask this question, and they would be like, we don't think so. Huh. Well, we don't think he's black, but we're, you know, you're not allowed to ask. Right. Yeah. Like if I asked anyone that question or asked him or something, I would be like. Well, you would be fired.

I wouldn't have written the book because I would have been fired before. I made it that far But And that was post BLM Yeah Well I was working So it was weird The summer that everything caught fire

I was handed A criminal justice reform pack My client Which was Sean King's group And so while everybody was in the streets Burding buildings I was working with like Larry Krasner And with the people that got

Chesa Boudin elected and um sorry what what what what are you saying I always feel like when I tell people this that I need to apologize for it I don't even know who that is they're like they're like let's talk about Tom Gerardi but yeah no so they're like these really progressive DAs that don't believe in police yeah and don't believe in Soros DAs yeah yeah there's I was working with Soros GAs. Yeah. Right. At the time.

They've unleashed a lot of, um, terror. Carnage and destruction on the American people. That's why I'm apologizing. Yeah. Yeah. That's why she feels guilty for, um, but that's, you mentioned you, that was like one of the big one 80s that you really did was on criminal justice.

Yeah. Yeah. Because you're in, well, you're in those, those spaces and you're listening to, um, the candidates all day and they are just like telling the donors over and over again, how the police are racist and how, you know, we live in a, you know, criminal justice system of white supremacy and that we need to help black people. And I had just seen this video of Floyd getting killed and I felt really bad about it. You know, I hated it. And, um, and so I just kind of like got sucked in and thought that I was doing the right thing until one day when I read online

about, um, how Sean King, his wife, what, or, he was asking his followers to give her money on cash app. And then it was revealed that the same day he was begging for money on cash app, she was closing on a million dollar home. Right. It was like a $6 million home, right? Something crazy. I think that was the Patrice Coalers.

Oh, okay. Yeah. But they were all buying homes. Yeah, they were all like scamming left and right to like have their real estate portfolios, which by the way, you can't blame them. Like I would. Yeah. I don't know if I would do the same.

But like, given. their like position their situation like they had a more opportunity to launder some money yeah yeah B L M yeah yeah but how were you were you yourself laundering money were you like were you like sipping the race Kool-Aid like it's one thing to be like yeah okay like all people deserve the same opportunities I mean I felt like I had to be judged on the color of their skin but like there was a point in the book where you talk about like how like yeah we should be electing more like like black female politicians and lawmakers. Did you like genuinely feel like yeah?

I really did. Yeah, I think I you know you meant well. I met well and I was like yeah of course. I think this is the right thing to do. But then I mean at some point it's just like you know through the nebula situation and the Kina situation and then Jasmine and just you know the constant and then all the stuff from the donors, you guys. The donors were probably the worst, to be honest. Can I?

Because it was a lot of, like, rich white women. Yeah. So Nabila, Islam Parks. You say you never had a single private one-on-one phone conversation. You exchanged text messages. And then she sends your boss this email. This is not the first time an entitled white woman has spoken to me disrespectfully.

I suppose it will not be the last. I am not the only person of color. She has spoken disrespect. fully to on this team. Evans' problematic mannerisms have been noticed by multiple people and not just me. And then you asked her

if she wanted to talk to you about it and she did not respond and then sent a follow-up email to your boss that said it's a common tactic by white women to deflect and play victim especially when it comes to working with women of color.

The email she sent me completely erases any accountability she has in the matter and instead she frames it as if I'm being mean to her. Can you not see how insane that is? Like I'm some angry brown woman and she has done nothing wrong. But of course, you don't see that. I highly suggest that both of you take diversity, equity, and inclusion training.

And that's when, yeah, you kind of snap. I snapped. That was the moment, like the pivotal moment. That was the big moment. And I had just gotten pregnant. I was like pregnant, like one day pregnant. Yeah. And yeah.

And the DEI training was the straw that broke the camel back. Yeah. And you know what? I told my boss, I was like, I'll never admit my privilege out loud. Like, I was very, like, obstinate about it. I did not. I wasn't, I wasn't afraid anymore at that point. I was like, fuck these people.

They're fucking crazy. Like, this isn't about politics anymore. This is just about weaponizing your identity to undercut competition. Yeah, it's like sick power games. And, like, you should never admit anything you don't believe because then they can sense your weakness and they'll, like, kill you with hammers. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

And so I was like, I'm not going to admit my privilege. Like, even if you make me take one, you know, the moment they asked me to, I will pretend like my internet went out. Like, I will turn off the computer. Like, it's not happening. So don't even try. I'm curious, like, what her definition of accountability is, because it sounds like you were taking accountability by reaching out to her directly, which is like being

an adult. Vulnerable and embarrassing to talk to somebody one-on-one, right? I guess. Anyway, well, I wanted to ask you, like speaking of rich white women about, I guess, these two women that you mention Leah Hendrix Hunt and Chloe Cockburn. Oh, yeah. I want the Chloe Cockburn tea. And you mentioned that everyone thinks it's like Soros funding all of the race war and soft on crime DAs,

but actually it's really people like them behind progressive ideals. It is. And Hendricks Hunt's like an oil billionaire. Yeah. Her grandfather was like an oil baron who was like really racist actually. Of course. Like legitimately. But she, I think he like put out, I might be not remembering this right.

But I think he like campaigned to send like people back to Africa. like that was like something that he promoted yeah you know and so I think she felt a lot of guilt being his granddaughter and knowing that her money you know she was she actually helped I think fund the Occupy Wall Street movement too I see so she was she was she thought she was like writing wrong yeah of her ancestor the white girl yeah well it's funny because like I don't know if you remember in the 90s you're probably like a little bit too young for this but like that was like a someone my popular thing movement among like black people like the five percenters where they were like we're going back to africa so it's funny it's like ironic that like they came to the same conclusion

like that's the really reason oil baron guy did yeah well the wax apparatus yeah no but like lea i mean she wasn't like lea wasn't she wasn't like all bad or anything um but she Yeah, I just, I think she like kind of did a lot of irresponsible things, I guess. Well, as you say, it's like the people most invested in these reforms are least affected by the policies. Right. They like are spending billions of dollars to enact. Like don't actually impact their lives in any way. Yeah.

Yeah. And she's, I mean, it was interesting because like she was a donor, right? But she was also kind of like an operative too. which made her extra powerful. How so? Well, she ran an organization called Way to Win. Okay.

Which is basically behind all of the squad candidates. Like they fund, they give justice Democrats a ton of money. They probably helped Mom Donnie. Like they help, like they have these like conferences. It's mostly women,

donors. A lot of women who, it's interesting. It's like not a lot of business people that make sense, like people that created businesses, but women that have inherited their wealth from either family or like getting divorced. Makes sense. Yeah.

Not any such cases. And so they just like have nothing to do with their time. And so they're like, and they're usually white. And so they feel bad about it because they're really rich. So they have white guilt. Whereas like my family doesn't have. Any white guilt.

No. Like at all. They're like, what are you talking about? Yeah. And when did your family make the switch to Trump in pre-2016? It's been slow. It's like some of them started voting for him in 2016.

They have this Uncle Billy Jay. Shout out Billy Jay. He's amazing. He has 80 guns. You mention him, yeah. Do you why? Okay. Well, yeah.

He's the one where you ask, like, do you think the Democrats look down on you? And he says, I don't think they look at me at all. they don't but yeah he has 80 guns he's like a vet um worked as a bricklayer he he's so amazing like when i talked to him i was like did you like being a bricklayer like you know and he's like yeah the harder the better like he liked hard work you know jesus was a bricklayer was he was he i thought he was a carpenter like tech but like it's yeah it disputed because carpentry wasn't like really a thing exactly in the way that we conceived of it and the way that the Bible

was translated and like historically he probably was like more of like a brick layer than like a carpenter exactly. Okay. Yeah. So Billy Jay's like Jesus. Yeah. And he's amazing. I love him so much. And yeah, he was like one of the first people that it was really shocking because he had been a Democrat his entire life. And in 2016 was like, hell yeah, I'm voting for Trump. And I think part of it was, you know, this isn't like talked about as much anymore, but guns, actually. Like seeing the Democrats went like really to the left on guns, I think after Sandy Hook. Right. You know, Bernie used to be like a pro-gun Democrat actually, or Democratic Socialist, whatever. Anti-immigration one too. He was. Yeah. Yeah. He called it like a Coke

brother's scheme to destroy the working class. And that's another thing. I get really, like, animated about this because people don't realize that, like, in the middle of the country, like, these union guys, part of the reason, you know, 70% of my uncle's local union voted for Trump is over things like immigration. Of course. Because their union ends up, like, being the consultants to, like, undocumented people. They're basically, like, hired to manage their own obsolescence, right? Exactly. like then they're laid off yeah and like a bunch of not h1bs because we're talking out like low skill whatever yeah and this last election the last the weekend right before didn't trump meet with like a carpenter's union in pennsylvania yeah and it was i forget what comelow was doing i mean she's drinking wine

i think she just got a new house she had like a concert oh she was in malibuil you know i go ahead the backdrop of this book is basically how the white working class in the heartland was abandoned by the Democrats who became like the party of like the celebrities global like rootless elites

but I want I actually had a question on that note because I'm curious like who this book is for in the sense that like Dasha me your lovely editor Paul who's a friend of ours like people that you mentioned shout out to him

like Batya, Angar Sargon. She's great. Daniel Maron, like all these people that, like, we know personally, like, they know this story, like, the back of their hand because they, like, saw it happen in real time and they comment on it. But, like, who do you think, like, is the audience for this book and who would it appeal to? Well, I think it's, it's naturally, it's going to appeal to Republicans because they, you know, want the inside scoop on how crazy the Democrats are.

And turns out they're pretty crazy, you know, behind closed doors. But I also think it's for, you know, people like me that have, you know, slowly become disaffected and disillusioned. I've got so many messages this week, you guys, from people that are like, I now understand, like, you put into words. Like all of the things I felt and connected the dots for me and like a way that I didn't understand. Like I didn't understand the evolution of the party. like what was happening on the inside and how the progressives really like Bernie and AOC

and Rashida and Ilhan and all those people sort of like transformed the party and really set the agenda. I mean they had a lot of soft power even if they didn't have raw hard power I write that in the book like Nancy Pelosi

they were able to steer the agenda. Right. They pushed even the centristems further left. They have to. like cultural issues. Yeah, and some economic, but mostly cultural. Yeah, you have a good quote here where you say both wings captured each other's worst impulses. AOC became a loyal lapdog for the establishment while the establishment embraced the most divisive aspects of progressive rhetoric.

This merger came at the expense of the populist vision expressed in Bernie's 2016 campaign. All that economic populism had to be dropped. This party would focus on the culture wars. So basically we got the worst of both worlds, which is like cultural radicalism and then like economic elitism. Exactly. But I'm curious in like in your view, who co-opted whom? Because from the outside looking in, it looks, it looked to people, I feel like that Bernie and AOC were co-opted by the centrist establishment by like the Pelosi's of the world. And there was a distinct shift from Bernie 2016 to Bernie 2020. When he fully walked back, the, his immigration stance specifically.

and probably as gun stance. But it seems like as you point out, the progressives really did weasel in a lot of... The Democratic Party was co-opted. It wasn't, yeah, it wasn't that Bernie and the AOC were co-opted. It's that they

actually infiltrated the party. And then the swap was that we will champion your social justice issues because we actually don't want to talk about economics. Because we don't want to piss off our donor. And we don't really want to change anything. And we don't really want to change anything.

Right. And the donors love the identity of politics. They can pay like lip service to like progressive causes. Yeah. Exactly. And yes, there was a total shift. And I think part of the shift between Bernie in 2016 and 2020 was also internal pressure. From like a lot of the like black and brown millennial girl bosses.

Sean King spoke at his 2020 rally. Oh, right. Yeah. I remember that. Yeah. They had like a totally. He had like Chuck Rocha working. for him who I write about the book who like pressured I would hear him on calls like

pressuring politicians to hire more brown people um you know like no I remember because I went to one of his first rallies in 2016 yeah and when I lived in LA there was like almost no one there in Lincoln Heights and he was talking like very like like like like like fixing pot holes and really like things that like really actually mattered to yeah his constituents and then when I went again to his rally because I was ready to drink the Bernie Kool-Aid again. I went in 2020 and I was like, oh, like it just felt so like such a sham. Yeah.

Yeah. Were you ever into Bernie, Anna? I just liked that he was no frills and plain spoken. Yeah. I said this on the pot a bunch of times because, you know, as you point out, like having met the guy, he was not exactly the most pleasant guy to be around, right? Like he was kind of like a dick. Yeah.

Kind of an asshole. Yeah. And like somewhat impatient with like pleasantries and networking. He had to have all the labels taken off his water bottle. What kind of water was that? I don't know. Oh, because all the labels were gone. I just like, I've always had a natural immersion to socialists because like my parents fled

a communist country and I like don't trust them or buy anything. Neither does my family. Neither does my family. But, um, yeah, I like, I like. I liked Bernie as like an avatar. I still do in some ways. I have a Bernie poster, but it's an anti-Semitic one.

Oh my God. It's by a Jewish artist. Yeah. It is by, it's not true. Every time I'm like on a Zoom call, I have to like shift the computer to the left so that nobody sees the poster.

Yeah. But yeah, I don't think like, whether or not you like Bernie, I think it was apparent that he was like never going to be president. Right. But he could have.

They would never let him. Yeah, they wouldn't. Yeah. I really thought he was. And I was like, yeah, I was like, I just want health care. Honey. I was like, Bernie would have won. I mean, yeah, I don't think,

I don't know if he could have over. I thought about this too because I had people that I knew that were all about Bernie too. And then they voted for Trump in 2016. because they wanted to take a sledgehammer to the system. And if it wasn't going to be Bernie, it was going to be Trump, you know? But I don't know if he really could have overcome, I think Trump was inevitable. Yeah.

Right? As like a counterbalance to the Obama years. People came up with all sorts of like elaborate, retarded justifications for why Trump won. And it's like, well, he ran on like, an anti-trade and immigration platform, and that made people in the center of the country feel like seen and acknowledged. Exactly. And it was a reasonable bargain to make.

I'm curious, actually, what you think of J.D. Vance as another Midwestern political memoirist and political operative. I have a soft spot for J.D., actually. I feel a kinship to him. Okay. I can't help it. I don't know, I like him, actually. I'd be open to voting for him in 2028,

but I don't, is it okay if I take out my shoes? Yeah, yeah, of course. We're just like wearing them all day, you know. But yeah, I have a soft spot for him, but like sometimes, I don't know, he's a really good politician, I think. Does the heart one feel the same way? What do you mean? Like, do you think he still speaks sort of to the demographics?

Yeah. Yeah. I actually, like, maybe this is a not popular opinion, but I think he has a better chance of winning in 2028 than Rubio would. Yeah, I know a lot of people who are, like, very pro-Rubio because he seems, he's saying all the right things and he's, like, really on the ball. But I guess a lot of people pay JD vans, but. Yeah.

But people back where I'm from don't. Yeah. That's the thing. It's like it's more these like intellectual conservatives. Yeah. I think don't like JD Vance. But, you know, all the people that I talked to that voted for Trump, like many of them actually right now are disappointed to be honest. Yeah.

For sure. But they still, they like JD and they kind of look at him like, okay, well, maybe he will really do what Donald Trump promised. And then, yeah, and one of your last. chapters where you're kind of like are addressing Republicans. Yeah. You say like America for you do still have to keep like America first. Yeah. I say like you need to lead with America first.

That needs to be the North Star. You can't go back to like the boring 1990s Bob Dole era Republican Party. And I know that's why people are disappointed in Trump. Yeah. Because I feel like you kind of drop the ball in that way. But I think Jadie's really smart because he's differentiating himself. right now. Like he is going on Rogan and, you know, talking about the war.

And I know a lot of people don't like it. But I think he's actually like countersignaling in a really, really genius way. I mean, I also have a soft spot for him to the extent that like it's just nice to see like a millennial person like in my age who is articulate and explanatory and is not doing like stupid irony memes, which really grinds my gears. but at the same time I find him to be kind of a snake and a wheeler and dealer and like an elite Yaleie who like probably embellished his past. I don't trust me out.

I don't trust him. You don't trust him. But I'm like, you know, that's just a gut kind of feeling. Yeah. There's something untrue. Yeah, I'm willing to obviously give him a chance, but it's also like not up to us, obviously. Yeah. You guys are in New York.

Well, what do you think of Trump at this point? Because like toward the end of the book, you know, you have. like a total about face and like long story short you end up casting a vote for him yeah and then meeting him and like shaking hands with him yeah yes yeah yeah yeah i like don't people are always trying to get me to like um apologize and say I regret it no I'm not gonna apologize either I don't regret it it was like I said it was like the I think the right like choice the right bargain to make and it was also like fun to like to like lie and be like no that was a fun night did you know that I went to his election night party.

Which one? In Palm Beach. Oh, no. And I went to the inauguration. Uh-huh. Oh, fun. In D.C. Yeah.

We couldn't get in. I could have got you in. Oh, shit. We knew each other. We were standing out in the cold, being like two prostitutes. I went to the Liberty Ball. I went to the Liberty Ball.

So after I left the deed, just like to get sight, is it okay for side tracking? Yeah, yeah. So after, because I don't write about this in the book, because it. was like just so I didn't want to go that far. You know, I just wanted to end with the election.

But after the DNC, I met, after I left the DNC and I had that viral video, I went viral. Laura Trump reached out to me. Yeah. And I did an interview with her. And she was like so nice and amazed. I mean, just like the cool, like she's like, I'll be your friend. And I did not believe her. I was like, okay, sure, Lara, like, whatever.

But, like, actually, she kept talking to me, and we would talk on, like, IG, DMing, you know, like, on Halloween. I, like, sent her my Halloween costumes. What was your Halloween costume? It was, like, we were the telotubbies. Oh, cute. We were all purple telotubbies.

My son picked it. Yeah. But then I was, you know, she hooked it up with the, and then so for the election night, I was like, can I come? Like, that would be wild, like, going from the, DNC. Yeah.

Like I was kind of like all in. I was like, let's just, let's just do it. And so I went to Palm Beach and I was there that night when J.D. and Trump and everybody came on the stage. And I was with all these guys in MAGA hats. It was like mostly men. And it was a crazy, it was a crazy night. It was like the, I screamed.

I was like chanting. It felt like Obama. Yeah. It felt like when Obama won for me. I mean, that's how I felt when... That's populism, baby. Trump won the first time around. I've, like, told the story a million times,

but I was, like, at a watch party with my, like, boyfriend at the time and his friends. And I was, like, grinning, like, an idiot. And they were all like, what's wrong with you? You're sick in the hell. The boys were saying that to you? Mostly their wives and girlfriends, but I think the guys were MIF too.

But, like... This was 2016. Yeah, this was... New York... Yeah. But it is, like, politics is, like, a very intuitive. It is. I'm a very intuitive person and I think like people, a lot of like Democrats now that I talk to because you know I'm not a Republican. I didn't do like the I'm going to go and be a Republican now. I mean I don't think we're Republicans. Like it's hard to. Yeah. Yeah. I'm politically homeless. Well, it's like it's like there's such a porousness I feel like to party affiliation. It's like a fool's errand to like overly invest in anyone like party. Yeah. And believe that they'll be able to like. Like to like. And believe that they'll be able to like. represent you.

You have to just kind of like roll with it. You have to roll with it, pick and choose. I'm a moderate. Yeah. You're a moderate? I'm a moderate. And like sometimes you do have to vote Republican down ticket because the Democrats are fumbling everything so bad.

But like, yeah, but. They're really bad at cities. Yes. I mean, in a city like New York, there's virtually no Republican presence. And it's just all Democrats. How do you feel about Mom Dani? I don't like him very much. I mean, okay, I respect him as a politician.

He's a really good campaign. He ran a good campaign. Yeah, he ran a great campaign. I think the affordability message kind of like put the Democrats in the right direction. But, you know, he's like, I know the people that work with him. Like, I know his type, you know. I just, I think he's, like, divisive. And, you know, he wants to tax, like, rich and white people.

more and like that wasn't an accident the way that he put that on his website like that is um i describe it in my book as race class narrative if you remember that part yeah yeah it's like an elite messaging uh tactic that is pushed by donors like lea hunt hendricks um that they think is going to like help them build a multiracial coalition and i guess maybe it will in new york city like it'll work here. Yeah. It has. Yeah. Yeah. But it's not going to work nationally. It's not going to work. No. No. But the demographics as destiny thing has played out in New York City, like in the span of a couple of decades. Yeah. It's weird though, because there's like a, there's a large number of Jewish voters here, right? There are, but Jews are split, right? Because there's a lot of like turbo left wing and socialist

Jews. So demographics are testing necessarily. Yeah. For that vote. right? I mean, a lot of them voted for Mom Donnie. Yeah. No, that's true. Well, I, you, there's a portion in your book where you talk about A-PAC. Yeah. I used to interface with them sometimes.

And I want to hear more. And to me, like the, it really did feel like the Israel-Gaza stuff really kind of through like a wrench in the gears of like a conventional understanding of like, social justice, you know, because obviously Jews are primarily, like, left-leaning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that became this kind of, like, very, like, divisive issue. And I sort of had an, obviously I know about APEC, but I didn't realize how many, how much, like, because, correct me if I'm wrong, but it's almost like they have people, like, pledge allegiance

to them almost secretly because they can't afford to lose them. Yes. Exactly. That's kind of how it works behind the scene. And so I talk about in the book this thing called the APEC neutralization strategy, which is what Jasmine Crockett had to do. So it's been like usually if the candidate does it, they'll do it like in secret. They don't want their staff to know even sometimes other than maybe their campaign manager because the, you know, the people that work in the Democratic Party are just very hostile to APEC. and they'll put out like a position paper where so APAC requests I don't know if you know this that they request that all politicians put in writing their like beliefs on Israel

and so they have to write a paper what authority do they have like what right to do that well it's like if you want to get their endorsement or get access to their donor networks. Yeah. Okay.

And that's like that'll make or break you, basically. Yeah. Depending on your race and like if, not your race, but your camp, you know, what district you're running in. So, you know, in 2022, they were getting really involved in progressive primary elections. So they, I remember there was like this, um, woman named Nita Alam that I did a super pack for. And they just like poured millions into her race.

They poured millions into Corey Bush. Jamal Bowman got them out, kicked them out of office. And Jasmine was running and a pretty, like, it was like a seven-way primary. And so, you know, there was a more moderate candidate

in that race. And so in order to make sure that APEC didn't spend against her, it wasn't even necessarily to get money from them or to... Just so that they wouldn't like throttle her. Yeah.

I don't think they even did any money. I don't think that there was any money from them, really. I don't think she's actually taken money from APEC. It could be wrong. But I don't think at that point in time she did. But it was just like putting out this position paper so that they had like on record, you know, her Israel stance. So she was like kissing their ring.

Yeah. So that they, yeah. But Jasmine's like not very ideological. She's more just like, I'll play the game. Yeah. Like, I'll take anybody's money. Like, I kind of almost respected that about her. Yeah.

Actually, it was kind of refreshing in a little bit of a way for me. Well, just politics seems so dirty. It is dirty. And so, like, if you want to get elected, you kind of have to be cutthroat. And, you know, she would take the corporate pack money. She would take the special interest money. You know, she was totally down for crypto. Despite that will...

Sorry, go ahead. No, no. That's another question I had like what's wrong with like hypothetically taking money from crypto donors versus any other organization. Well, I think that for progressives, they just think that if you're taking money from crypto or APEC, that you are owned by them. And so you, you know,

you will be influenced like you're bought and you want all their candidates to not be bought. They want them to all be like Bernie. Yeah. But Bernie's kind of bought and controlled by the young people that work in progressive politics that like force him to like go to the left on issues like. So I mean everybody's kind of bought in some way. As you say, well, yeah. What? Why doesn't he just retire? I feel like he'll die if he retires. Yeah. It's like he's like trying to survive. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. So that's the the A-PAC. but yeah it was it was interesting but because bernie was such a star and such a celebrity in his own right he didn't have to do call time which is like when politicians get on the horn and beg and plead with donors to give them money which is like demoralizing for them demoralizing fun for me yeah you liked it i've seen the devil wears prodded too i saw the devil i felt saw the first one um what about the second

i watched it well i watched it last night there's a part where anne hathaway has to get out has to call a bunch of people on the phone to try and get money and I thought of you. Because I watched last night. It was this whole montage or she's like, making calls. I was like, wow, that's like what Evan does. And it did make it seem so like, oh, it did feel like a casino. It was like electric. Like it's so much fun.

If you guys ever want to run for office. No. Well, I phone banked for Bernie back in 2016, not even like for fund rate. Like just like remind people about the primaries. Yeah. I could. I was like, hello, hello. I was like, did you know the primaries coming up?

And people be like, no. And I'd be like, ugh. Well, just choked. Your tips and tricks for like running down sources and getting money from them were really illuminating. But I can imagine once you've been doing this for like many years, you start to realize like how predictable human psychology is. Right.

And I'm curious, like, if people ever, like, defied your expectations or impressed you or... I mean, in all honesty, it was, like, always the same. There was a few, okay, there was a few people that I think I, so I came up with candidate archetypes. Yes. And I taught those archetypes at movement school. Yeah. I kind of spiced them up for the book, but, you know. But, yeah, occasionally you'd get the person that I would,

called the machine, which is like sort of like a Gavin Newsom, Abdul Al-Salad. I don't know if you know who he is. The know-it-all, the machine, the influencer, the catastrophist, and the lost cause. Yeah, but so, you know, they're occasionally, you'd find a machine and they were extreme, I mean, they were like a dream for a fundraiser to work with because they were just shameless. And they probably had like a higher degree of narcissism and, which I think is a requirement of the job. Actually, I don't think it's like bad to have that as a politician. It's like actually worse if you don't because it's going to. Because what are you even doing?

You're not going to be able. I can't even imagine like a politician who's not narcissistic. How'd you end up here? You're a last cause. Yeah. And so yeah, there were people like that. There were people that, Abdul al-Sead actually. Who is that?

He's running right now. They call him the Michigan Mom Dani. He's running in Michigan. for U.S. Senate. It's kind of like, you guys should pay attention to this race because it is...

We'll try. It's like, or I mean or don't. I wish I could like escape politics right now, but it's going to be my life for the next few months as I do book promo, but it's basically Bernie versus AOC,

or sorry, Bernie versus Hillary in 2016 happening in Michigan because progressives have never been able to prove their theory of change. They've never been able to prove that they can win in places like Michigan and swing districts.

They've never won there. They only win in blue districts. And so, Abdul is running in Michigan, which it's a swing state. And he's taking on a woman named Haley Stevens, who's the APAC candidate. And he's running his campaign of being anti-Apaq.

And he's also, like, affiliated with the DSA and AOC and Bernie have endorsed them. And so it's like, millions and millions of dollars are pouring into this race from both sides. And if he ends up winning, here's the stakes. If he ends up winning the primary, which I think you will,

we'll find out on Tuesday. Oh, yeah, that was my question. When is the election? And Tuesday. Yeah, yeah. If he ends up winning his primary, which I think he will, then he goes to the general against the Republican.

And if he wins, if Abdul El-Sayed wins that state against the Republican, it means progressives are in charge in 2028 because it means the Democratic Party has failed. Right. The establishment is over. Like that's what it means for progressives.

So it's going to be a huge race. And I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up running for president. I worked for him. Uh-huh. He already bought like Abdul for president websites in like 2017. Uh-huh. You know. I mean, yeah, I guess it's a long shot that he would ever win, though he could run.

for president, I mean, but it would still be... It's the Michigan thing. That's the thing. It's like if you're from Michigan, you know, you basically have the rest belt. Right. And that's where Democrats... And then you sort of say like Texas too, basically. Well, yeah.

Like everything's kind of like downstream from the Westbell. Everything's, I mean, they have to win the blue wall and that's where they've always failed. And so that's why it's so key like that state in particular. Why are, why have they always failed? Well, they used to win it. They used to win it because of the work, because of people like my family. Yeah. Because jobs that were shipped away, you know, you probably hear Batia talk about a lot about that.

And it's true. Like, yes, automation was already happening. But in places like Michigan, the impacts were a lot, they were really bad, you know. Yeah, yeah. Detroit was like apocalyptic. Yeah. I mean, every major, like, Midwestern city was like an industrial city. It's like very sad what happened to them because there were like cultural hubs.

beautiful architecture and now it's like yeah and democrats have become the party of free trade now whereas the republicans are the party of not being free you know Donald Trump tariffs right it's like his favorite word or whatever so um I think uh I think if they can they have to win the blue wall and they haven't been um that's why Trump's won twice and I think um you know if you have somebody like Abdul coming in as a progressive as like a Medicare for all champion anti-AAC abolish ice

steep on the police that's you know those are his those are his yeah and who are the Republicans that he would be running against I don't know

some he's really boring yeah what do you think I mean maybe it's like a stupid question to ask ahead of Tuesday but what do you think is the future of the Democratic Party I think the progressives are ascendant

I think Mom Dani is the leader now and what would you like the future to be? I would like it to be something that doesn't exist. It probably won't exist. But I think the establishment is hollow and empty and doesn't really stand for anything. And I think the progressives are just like too crazy

and far the left and they're not going to be able to win national elections. So I think ideally in my world, it would be like a new type of Democrat that kind of like carcans back to FDR. That's like an anti, they're an anti. Well, that was the wish of Trump. Yeah, it was. Like an FDR Republican.

Yeah. Yeah. And like a Republican version of FDR. Yeah. And so, which I also would be totally open to. And that's my hope for the Republican Party as well. But I think an anti-progressive populist.

Well, yeah, that's, I had my question was like, who is there anyone in politics who has, like economic populism with like socially culturally moderate views that don't alienate. There is anybody. There's this woman named Marie Glucentcamp Perez. Okay. She's really beautiful. Ooh. Uh-huh.

Okay, she'll look her up. Marie Glucentcamp Perez, M.G.P. I see. Oh, I'm from Washington. I've seen her. Yeah. Yeah. And she likes then, I heard. Huh?

She uses Zen. Like nicotine pouches? So she's unstoppable. She's really cool. Interesting. But yeah, she has like moderate social views, but she's more like she actually focuses in like the bread and butter economic issues in like a real way. I found out about her when she was talking about saw stop.

regulations. Yeah, she's really nerdy. She'll get in. What does she say about that? She was anti. Well, there's like, this is so boring. I only know it's because my husband's a carpenter and he hurt himself. Your husband's a carpenter?

Like, she said? Okay, wait, no. He heard himself on a table saw. Oh. And now in a lot of wood shops, it's required to have this, like, technology that this company has a monopoly on called saw stop that basically. that basically stops a saw from hurting you. It's actually like,

it hinders actually people from doing woodworking because it's like, you can't put you use like any like conductive materials on it. You know, like if woods a little like wet, it'll just stop. It's a whole rigmarole. It's like, yeah. So she was trying to pass some legislation basically.

To like make it better? Yeah. Yeah. She does good stuff. I love her. But the progressives hate her. because she's not because she won't do what they like

she didn't want to abolish ice like didn't vote to defund ice and she's a Democrat she's like a yeah she's like an old school dem she's far and few between you know somebody like that I would be so excited you know maybe I should run

you could do you want to no yeah that's the thing it's like the people who have the right ideas and who should be running like don't want to do that because they have like families and are making money in other ways and it's like a thankless job where you will be destroyed. Yeah, I'll be destroyed. It's not hard to find skeletons in my closet. It's pretty easy. Well, you said you should never delete anything, which I agree with. Right. Because people will find it one way or another. And it like your history is like not deletable. But should you just lean

into all of your skeletons if they're not so bad? Like if you're not like a patophile, let's say. Yeah. Well, that's like the Trumpians. Yeah. I know, but Democrats don't do that. Yeah, I don't know where there's... They try with Grand Platner. No. What happened there? He got Me Too'd.

Uh-huh. Yeah, I don't know if, like, there's no charges. I know Gavin Newsom has some gnarly. Oh, yeah. Something bad's gonna come around. I can just tell. That's why he's always silent when these sex scandals happen. He, like, never is like, you know, calling the kettle, as they say.

Um, I wanted, I liked this part where you, you sort of get into, like the archetypes of operatives. Uh-huh. The lifers, which you sort of identified as at some point, fame seekers, and you say some operatives are purely ideologically driven. I call them the pure-hearted. They go into politics to change things. They believe they can be the difference they want to see in the world.

They are often young without a ton of experience, and if they last in politics, they learn over time. It isn't what it's cracked up to be and leave. Still, many are not actually pure-hearted. They simply want power. a place to exercise their worst impulses. They picked the Democratic Party to do this because they still want to be seen as good people to the rest of the world. In terms of cultural influence, mainstream institutions often perceive the right as lacking moral integrity. And I guess my question

is like, what percentage would you say of political operatives are genuinely pure-hearted and how many can last? I think probably 20% that have longevity. Oh, no they don't last yeah like yeah the most pure-hearted person that I used to work with is like now completely out they go into like academia they yeah he's like going to graduate school at Harvard yeah I guess life is like 80-20 applies to everything 80 20 yeah no I'd say like 20% and then they just they get like used and abused and or they just get they almost become lifers but they're like on the verge of that because it's like so much fun yeah you know I talk about this concept of the bubble in my book, which is like when you're around a politician

with a lot of power and influence. Like, I don't know if you've ever seen the bubble. You kind of know it when you see it. Like even just, it could be a celebrity maybe, but it's especially profound with a politician because of the like power that they have. Well, I guess we met Trump that one time. Yeah. So did you see his bubble? He had aura. Yeah. So there was like an entourage, right? like kind of like surrounding him and like everybody turned and it was like the energy in the room yeah electric that's the bubble and it's like when you're inside of it when you're with that person yeah then it's like totally intoxicating it's like a drug it's it's a it's a it's a best drug you could ever take and um that's how you become a lifer right because you're like

always chasing the dragon you're like a heroin act yeah yeah that's a why Bernie won't retire. Right. Yeah. I just, I think he really does need it to go on living because like, that's like, that's what animates him.

Like he would wither up and die if somebody was like, Bernie, you're out of the game now. You have to go like garden. Or like play backgammon or whatever old men do. Yeah, yeah. Hang out with Joe Biden to you guys.

Um, what do you guys think about Bernie's AI stuff? Just curious. I don't, I haven't seen her. Like he put out this. He put out this like referendum that he wants to like ban all data centers and like what do you, do you ever think about AI? I mean, I've been using it a lot randomly because I've been going on chat GPT like exploring astro charts, getting medical advice.

I think like, well, we're getting to the bottom of things that like shouldn't be democratized. Uh-huh. Also like 80-20, yeah. But, yeah. But I have, I don't know. I was very like anti. just like out of a sheer like fear response and now I'm kind of more moderate slash indifferent I guess it's kind of being fun being pro AI the data

centers feel a little like overblown to be itchy like yeah like I understand but then I'm like there has to be more to this they can't just be you know you know my uncle is building a data center and he's a union construction and he's like it's the best job I've ever had. Wow. They pay so well. They're so nice. They bring in a masseuse to like give the guys like stretches. That's how they gain their

cater lunch. He's like I want to build a data center forever. I'd like to be optimistic but my instinct is to be cynical but ideally yeah I could usher in like an era of prosperity in some ways.

Even like the illusion of prosperity is fine. If people are like lulled into some kind of pleasant pleasant like pleasurable dystopia that's like fine with me as long as people aren't being like tortured and tormented. Do you think it's possible that it ends up just like taking all of our jobs and that then we just like a lot of jobs? No, but it will take a lot.

But like we're in perpetual like George Floyd's summer where everybody is getting paid by the government and nobody's working. That seems really bad to me. I know. That's the scary part. That's what I liked about the Pope Leo's encyclical that he wrote. Actually, he made a lot of good points, but the most salient. I thought was where he talked about, like, the inherent dignity of work.

And it's not enough just to, like, give people UBI. Like, people need purpose. Right. They need, like, I agree. There's, like, a moral right to work. Well, yeah, but the sad thing is, like, work has lost so much of its inherent dignity because people aren't, like, carpenters and homemakers anymore. And they're, like, working, like, shitty email jobs, like, compiling.

That, like, may as well be replaced. Yeah. That are already, exactly, like. totally yeah so I'm hopeful for AI I could like save my disease or something I think in medicine probably it'll be great yeah I hope yeah were you worried I mean when you were like in in the thick of it like working as like an operative um you partly because you had this disorder that you had to manage like were you worried that it would just like make it flare up and make it worse I did all the time.

Oh my god, you guys. The cortisol. Girls. I was always in the hospital. Like I would like go fly to a visit a campaign and then go to a debate, watch my candidate debate, you know, give her my notes. And then I'd be like, I'm going to just go to the emergency room. I'll see you in a few days. But then I would work the whole time.

I was in the hospital. I'd be like doing Zoom calls. Like making people like with my bed and I would be like levitating it forward. I'd be like, all right, let's say, okay, hold on, my nurse needs to get, okay, yeah, let's keep going. That was me. I don't know. I just, I loved my job and just really like working and what? Do you miss it?

I do. Yeah. I do miss it. I miss it all the time. Uh-huh. Would you ever go back to it? No, not the way that they are now. I have Republicans offering me jobs.

Yeah, I figured, yeah. Oh, yeah. Like, totally. But the problem is that. I don't feel, I don't think it's. like better. No. Yeah.

That's the problem is that I'm just like, okay, I'm going to go in and then I'm going to end up writing like nothing right, you know? But that's not, that's not a bad idea. Not right anymore. They're not going to trust me. Well, I feel like you're in a good position now because you wrote like a political bestseller and somebody might hire you to teach. That's a possibility.

I got asked to teach a class at the University of Texas. Texas or something, A&M. They want me to teach a political class, which is really cool. But yeah, teaching, I don't know, I don't know what I'm going to do. So that's the problem. I don't really ever have a plan.

That's good. People think I have plans. And I'm like, I never, I just really truly live, like, day to day. Very impulsive. I told a reporter that when he asked me about my vote for Trump. I was like, it was a little impulsive. Yeah.

You know? I don't know. That's the best way to. do it. You have to like raw dog life. Scorpio. Yeah. Well, what's your rising? Aquarius. That's, well, that's why. That's why you're such a good communicator.

Really? Yeah. I don't know as much about it. Like, tell me. You got to use chat GPC. You have to download an app that spits out a chart, plug the chart into chat GPT. Then it'll give you the rundown. That's like how I do it. Yeah. Yeah. Is that a good combination?

Yeah. Well, Aquariot. are like very futuristic. Yeah, in terms of their communication style, their ability to like roll with it and not overplan, yeah. When did you guys think of the Billy Jack references in the book? Have you ever seen the movie?

No, I had no idea what you were talking about. I thought it was sweet. It had a huge impact on you. Yeah. Part of me putting him in the book so much is the my favorite movie ever, my grandma showed it to me when I was seven. It was from 1972.

It was the most successful independent film of all time. Oh, wow. Actually. And like, nobody knows it anymore, except for really old men. Okay. They always message, they message me and they're like, I love Billy Jack. Old men love me. But, yeah, I put it in the book. So, like, Quentin Tarantino, like, do you remember that movie? It was like about Hollywood, had Brad Pitt in it. Oh, once upon a time in Hollywood. Yeah. Yeah. So Brad Pitt's character was based on Billy Jack's character. That makes sense.

So Quentin is a big fan of this movie, but it's kind of a cult movie. And I wanted people to watch it again by putting it in a book. Yeah, I'm curious. Watch it. I will. It's kind of silly now

because it was made the 60s and it's like very idealistic. Yeah, the golden age of Americans. I mean, the political fundraising did remind me a lot of like trying to get people to give you money for an independent film, which is also kind of similarly like,

um, degrading, but, but like rewarding when it works. Do you have to hustle as much when you're doing it? Well, you don't have exactly have like a list in the same way. And there's less infrastructure. But yeah, you have to be like creative and you have to figure out like how to like con con people basically. Like use your feminine wilds.

Yeah. Because there's very little like ROI and yeah. Investing in films. I mean, same in politicians. Yeah. So you have to like make it worth their while and, you know, pre-me-too, you could get a producer, be like, maybe you'll get to have sex with an actress, but no more.

Yep. Now we do things all different. Yeah, those days are over, yeah. But I like the bits in, um, about celebrity. Yeah. About Alec Baldwin and stuff. And, um, I guess it's maybe an obvious question, but why do you think, like, the Democrats do have such a stronghold on celebs?

Well, celebrities, they can't be conservative. Yeah. You know, they can only be conservative after they've kind of like fallen from the height of their careers. Yeah, when they're old. When they're old. James Woods or who are, Mel Gibson. Kid Rock. Vince Vaughn.

He was at the inauguration. Oh, right. Yeah. So they're just, they're not allowed to. Sydney Sweeney is, I think, a Republican. Well, she's got, yeah, she's very, she's very, like, smart not to, like, align herself, but obviously with her family and everything. Yeah.

And she gets a lot of blowback for it. Yeah. I tried to get her to read the book. I tried. Maybe you could sell the movie right since she could play you. Yeah. So true. Yeah.

That would be cool. There's a lot of opportunities. Yeah. But no, I think the celebrities is just like, it's, it's that, you know,

they want to be seen as moral and they want to be seen as like aligning with like the good party, the party of social justice. And why did you get in trouble for, because you got Susan Sarandon to like endorse some candidate. Yeah.

And why? I, because she's not a Republican. Yeah. Because she's like, you went like you sidestepped the campaign manager. I did that a lot. Yeah, I was always doing that.

Yeah. But no, so she donated to this Canada I was with. And this woman named Christina. And I was like, oh my God. I called Christina. And she's like, I love Thelma and Louise.

Like let's do it. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. We already had Alec Baldwin. And so we're like, yeah,

you know, this will have. us get votes. Not celebrities don't really help get votes. But then we put out her endorsement almost immediately. Christina and I did. And then within like an hour, it was like blowing up.

And all of these people got so mad. And they were like, why? They hate her. Why? Because of Bernie stuff. Oh, because she's a progressive and not a centrist. Because she said,

I don't vote with my vagina. And then she encouraged. Lies. She's wanting too. She encouraged everyone to vote for Jill Stein. Oh, right. Oh, right. Okay.

So these Hillary donors were calling me and they were like, whoever's idea that was needs to be fired immediately. And I was like, I'll let them know. Yeah. I'll make some calls. And then the campaign deleted the endorsement. Which I was like, why are you? Like, let's not delete it.

Let's just like keep posting. Let's post through it. It'll like go away. Whatever. Always post through it. Yeah. And then her office, like, emails us and emails me. And they're like, why did you delete this? Like, what, what happened? Like, are we not endorsing you anymore? What a shit show. That part did spike my cortisol. Yeah. Yeah. And then we had to write them back. And I think the campaign manager said something like, it was really dumb. He was like, we just want to be an inclusive campaign. And so we need to like retract the endorsement.

Do you think you could have written this book even like four years ago? No. It feels very like timely. Yeah. Like people are ready to, people are ready to hear it. To talk about it. And I think it's like really good because a lot of people have questions about these DSA candidates.

They don't realize that it's all the, all the people that I read about my book, like all these organizations, justice Democrats. Like they recruited Dary Liza Chevalier, that woman that's against interracial relationships that just won. Yeah. Wait, what? You guys are like, what? What's happening? Wait, she's against interracial relationships from the left, not from the right. Well, it is really funny how the left and the right really do like horseshoot to the same.

They do. Like conclusions. The extremes. Yeah. Yeah. And so, yeah, she's against her. She's probably the most radical person that's ever been elected to Congress. Is she a woman of color?

Yeah. Does she have a white husband? They usually do right now. She has like an appra Latina, I think. But she has some, you know, abolished prisons. Like, oh, she's for, she says that there should be no deportations ever, even if like a crime is committed. Okay. But yeah, Justice Democrats recruited her.

And I know the person that ran her campaign. I worked with them at movement school. The Justice Democrats seem scary. Yeah. And so, soo-pathy. Everybody's scared of them. Yeah. Yeah.

Especially the white guy. Wait, which white guy? There's like an Indian guy and a white guy. I don't know. There's so many white guys. You were trying to get eyes on them. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, they, they freak me out like more than, I was looking at the list of names of like, all the people that they like helped elect from your book and thinking like, well, given the, of course I stand with Nancy Pelosi. Oh my God. You guys, should I be saying this? Like, whatever. If you want us to cut something, we can. No, it's fine. There's like this radio station. They want me to do like a sit down with Nancy Pelosi.

You should. And like confront her. You should. That would be really interesting. She won't do it. She probably won't. There's no way. Yeah.

I would love to, though. Yeah. Well, another, speaking of interracial relationships, another thing you mentioned in the book is how AOC's like white, white ginger husband was her social media and political strategist effectively so he was

the one like coming up with all these bright ideas for like rage baiting and stirring up controversy yeah and all of her lives and everything like he was kind of like the strategic shadow force are they married I don't think they ever not married yeah there have been a long

engagement for like 20 years the situation like what is going on there but yeah he was well I have a question yeah with like it's clear like the trajectory of how disillusioned you became and then you got married yeah which congrats but then that gave you kind of like and obviously like motherhood like you know also influence like your political leanings and stuff but like your marriage did kind of give you like an escape hatch. It did in a way.

And what do you think had you not gotten married and you still had to grind? I wouldn't have been able. What do you think you would have still been in it? You would have kept, do you think you would have kept working for? I think longer than I did. Do you think you would have done some DEI workshops? To stay afloat? I think to keep my health care. I mean, yeah, I really do. I think marriage kind of saved me. Thank God. Like it was like really stabilizing for me.

It was the most stabilizing force in my life has been my marriage and my family with my husband. You know, I saw my dad get married five times. My mom six times. You know, there was never really stability. It's nice to your husband so supportive. Yeah. Yeah, at first it really freaked him out. Well, you get into it a bit of like the dynamics in the Bay Area.

Yeah, I didn't want to like, because like one of the reasons that we first matched is because he saw, we matched on Tinder. It's because I had my photos where like, first one was me and Bernie. Yeah. Huh. Why did I do? Because you're trying to meet men. Yeah. You were like catfishing men with political content.

And then the next one was like me singing because I play music too just for fun. And so does my husband. So we kind of have like a little band. That is cute. People are probably going to find the music. That's so nice because you can play it with your son. That's great. Yeah.

We play music with them. We do like keep on the sunny side. Yeah. We do a lot of like folk music and like alternative country. I love country music. So, but yeah, I don't even know. But he, it was just so like, I just feel really lucky that I was able to find someone. That even through, I think me voting for Donald Trump was probably the hardest thing he and I have ever gone through.

Actually, because he was not a fan of Donald Trump. He went with me to meet Trump. Yeah. And he smiled at the photo. Like he, like he did it for me. You know, he didn't really want to do it. But he like came and we brought our son. That's for love.

Yeah. And then, you know, he's, he's been there. And at this point, you know, he really didn't like the way I was treated in progressive politics. Like he got turned off from them, you know. But he didn't go so far as I did. And so, you know, it was hard. We did like one therapy session. We don't believe in couples therapy.

It's like not our, you know, we can. just do it ourselves, figure things out. But, you know, we got through it. And now he's, like, loving it. You know? He's like, hell yeah. Fuck them. Usually, like, the genders are in flip.

I know. I'm the more right wing. And he's, isn't that funny? That is funny. Even pre-Trump, I remember, like, Bernie bros and they're, like, Hillary supporting girlfriends having, like, acrimony. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, breaking up. And so. Yeah, we have a sort of bipartisan relationship. But, I mean, it's healthy. It works. Yeah, it's not, it's not extreme. I think we're a lot closer. Well, you're an independent.

Yeah, I think he's sort of evolved to on some of his views. Yeah. I'm sure, yeah. But I think, like, you know, as you point out, like, getting married and having kids really just changes your outlook on these things. And you want, like, a more robust economic platform and a more moderate culture. platform. Yeah. Because children obviously require moderation. Yeah, living in San Francisco was a toddler. Yeah. Yeah. Really crazy. So I wonder how much of this like progressivism is literally buffeted by the fact that there's this massive demographic change underway,

not racially speaking, but in terms of like gender dynamics because like no one's really getting married or having kids. I know. So, yeah. Yeah, it's like maybe J.D. Vance was right. About what? About the childless cat women. I mean, the dad. I mean, definitely was. And like,

when you say, there was going to be a wreck in there. People, well, people like really like, find this to be like a controversial and contestable statement. And they always assume that you're like installing yourself

on a moral high ground. But it's just factually, observably true because like where to like childless unmarried people will go. I mean, I think they sink a lot of their hopes into politics, right? Politics. Their dog. like their houses

their vacations to Bali well politics gives people like a moral authority that they can hang on to in lieu of like real moral obligations to people in their lives you know yeah it becomes their children

that's that's right and yeah like you said it's like it gives them an arena to exercise their like worst most anti-social impulses under the guise of like social justice Yeah, in like a socially acceptable and even encouraged way. Yeah. But like even that, I think, like, I'm a moderate on this because society does require a small

fringe amount of activists, like people like Larry Kramer. Of course. Who were like, diehard messianic peep types who were like a thorn on everybody's side. But the problem is like that too has been democratized. Like everybody's like a political activist now. Everybody. Yeah. It's like the new hipster or something.

Yeah. Right? Yeah. Most people should just be checked out. Like clavicular. Yeah. Politics is jester. Yeah.

You know. He went to Israel and he was like, I don't, is there a war going on? I don't know. I'm just here to go clubbing. Yeah. True. Pure. Truly pure heart.

Yeah. Is there anything else? Nothing left is available now. Yeah. Climbing the charts. Yeah. Helping. to make the bestseller list.

We'll see what happens. Big congrats. Thank you. This is so cool. You guys. You were my therapy for years. Oh, we appreciate it. So, like, you got me through these years with these people.

So it's, like, kind of amazing and beautiful for me to be able to talk to you about it. To everyone who says we've never contributed anything to the culture or touched lives. I'm glad you made it out. Yeah, thank you. Thanks for coming on the show. I hope you. Crack the best seller. I think it'll happen.

Well, we're on the radar. The New York Times requested a couple of the books a few days ago. So that means they're probably reading it because they're seeing that it's selling. Awesome. I have no idea how it works, though. Like, I don't know what their formula is. It's probably rigged. But not for you.

No, you're like, you're not making it. It's okay. Even if I don't, like, whatever, I wrote a book. Yeah. You wrote a book. Yeah, that's a, um. massive major feat yeah yeah with the best editor ever shout out to him yeah

schwa out thanks Evan thank you and how you know