RedHanded - American Vigilante: Interview with Sam Walker

Episode Date: September 28, 2021

In this very special bonus episode of RedHanded, we sit down with former BBC journalist Sam Walker to discuss her latest investigation into the terrifying world of real-life violent vigilantes.  Over the course of months, Sam interviewed a mysterious man known only as “KC”. He told her all about his brutal exploits as he and his gang roam the country dishing out their own brand of savage justice. The brand new podcast series - American Vigilante - is out now wherever you listen to your podcasts, with new episodes dropping every Monday. Thank you to American Vigilante and Crowd Network for sponsoring this bonus episode! https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/american-vigilante/id1583938816 See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello and welcome to a very special bonus episode of Red Handed, brought to you by the brand new original podcast series from Crowd Network,

American Vigilante, which you can download and listen to now, wherever you listen to your podcasts. I'm a hunter. It's what I do. When you are hunting somebody who, by all intents and purposes, is a monster, do you have to become a monster? No, I just have to be able to think like a monster. I'm a monster hunter.

Well, this is going to piss a lot of people off. You know, it really is. But, you know, I've never been a liar, and I ain't going to start now. Now, I don't give two fucking shits if you're a cop, or a guy like me, or anything. That kid now has no dad. That woman has no husband. That man was a United States Marine, and a good fucking man. That woman has no husband. That man was a United States Marine. And a good fucking man.

That's bullshit, Sam. Our rules of engagement are pretty simple. If we have to pull a trigger on one person, they're all going to go. It's that simple. We couldn't have any slip-ups. We didn't have time to sit there and zip tie him and gift wrap him. He had to make sure that that guard was never going to be a problem again. So we get to the first room and the woman was in there and she'd been hurt. And it was obvious that I had a gun in my hands. I said,

follow me, keep your mouth shut and do what I say. And all of a sudden the door at the other end of the hallway flies open and there is one of the biggest men I've ever seen in my life. And I'm like, holy shit. And he's got a knife in his hand. And I'm looking at him and I'm like, I mean, I'm peeking around the door and I'm like, holy God. I don't want to be in the hallway with this guy. He's a freaking monster.

He was a freaking moose. So I stepped around. I had my gun out. And he kind of looked at me. And I said, I swear to God. I said, if you do anything other than what I told you to do, I said, I'm going to kill you right here. Do you ever know what happened to him? No, ma'am.

Has that ever crossed your mind since? I think more about the turd I flushed down the toilet this morning. You got kids? You got kids, right? Yeah. A couple girls? So, one of your girls is taken, Sam. God forbid that ever happens. And you just happen to know me. Or know how to get a hold of me now. What are you gonna

tell me, Sam? What are you gonna tell me when I show up to tell you I can get your daughter back? You want me to make sure I don't hurt anybody? What are you going to tell me, Sam? You've about got tears in your eyes right now just thinking about that shit, don't you? Well, it's ugly. I can tell you this. There's no feeling in the world like putting a child back in the arms of its parents. What on earth goes through your head when the gun is being pointed at you? You want the truth? Of course.

I'm going to kill you and eat your fucking heart. That's exactly what I think every time. No matter what happens to me in the next second, I'm going to kill you. So if I'm going to die, that son of a bitch is going to die too. Well, I for one have got goosebumps and I feel a little bit uncomfortable now, but we're excited to share this all with you. The man you just heard in his gravelly dulcet tones, his name is KC, and he is an American vigilante based off-grid somewhere in the US. And in this new podcast series, he tells his extraordinary life story. After serving his country in the US military

and then returning home, KC experienced a horrifically violent assault that made him want to dedicate his life to protecting those who cannot protect themselves. This podcast series, American Vigilante, dives deep into the shocking real-life experiences of KC, as he and the group of violent men he leads, known as the Brotherhood of Vigilance, devote their lives to rescuing women and children who have been kidnapped, assaulted and attacked in the hopes of providing justice to families

who didn't receive the support they needed from the American legal system. The stories that come to light in this podcast are brutal and shocking, but they depict the truth behind violent crime in America today. And Casey himself is a fascinating character. He's a hugely complex, intelligent and contradictory man who could save your life. But the brutality that he's willing to dish out proves that he could just as easily end your life too. American Vigilante is a true crime podcast series, but it's so much more than that as well. It's a story about saving abducted children,

stepping beyond the law, rescue missions, assassination attempts, and last gas protection. It's all the stuff you hope never comes to you. Until it does. In this series, former BBC journalist Sam Walker spent months speaking to KC and recording every violent and harrowing story he had to tell. Han and I have listened to all four episodes that are out so far, but you'll need to check them out to make up your own mind.

Because black and white, this story is not. And in this very special bonus episode, we are delighted to be joined by the host of American Vigilante herself, Sam Walker. And we're extremely lucky to have Sam with us today. And she's also been extremely patient because we fucked it up already. But she is still here and still smiling. So we're extremely grateful to be speaking to Sam who has previously worked at BBC used to present on Five Live is that right Sam is that my that is memory hooray old life yeah

Sam saying old life because Sam currently resides in Phoenix Arizona and Sam how on earth did you end up there do you know what sometimes I still ask myself the exact same question even after two and a half years I still no word of it I look out the window and see a palm tree and a mountain and a cactus as opposed to the cobbled streets of rain-soaked Manchester and think has this actually happened or I'm in some crazy lucid dream uh I mean I've just wandered onto the set of Breaking Bad by accident. Oh, so many similarities. But I think, yeah, why not? Why not?

Life's too short, isn't it? And I got to the stage where I was super lucky in my career. I'd worked like crazy. And, you know, presenter on Five Live was having a whale of a time and thought, how can I scrap all of that and start all over again in a place where nobody knows me? Let's do that. So yeah, I moved out here with our family in 2019. Wow. And is it true? I've heard tell, I've heard on the underwaves that there is a podcast, an award winning podcast about your life transition. Is that true? Yes. Thank you so much. Sam Walker's Desert Diaries,

award winning, as my mother says in the same breath every time we mention it. But yeah, won a British Podcast Award in 2020. And it's just dead honest. And it's like little audio postcards. There's one every week, but they're only up to

sort of 10 minutes long. And it's really the weird, the wild, the wonderful, the sometimes frightening things that have happened since we've been here. I think we all, if we've visited the United States, think, think oh we know america we've seen friends we've seen all

that we've seen miami vice we know we've seen the a team and some similarities there uh with what we're going to talk about but you know we think we know the states and then you move here and you think huh we really are two cultures separated by, you know, a common language. We think we even speak the same language. We don't. So it's been a real roller coaster, but that's kind of what we wanted. So, yeah, Sam Walker's Desert Diaries. Danger contains many scorpions. I wish it did not. It really does. So now we know a little bit about you, Sam.

We've done our very best to introduce the mysterious Casey who we just heard. But you can probably do a slightly better job than us. So can you tell us who Casey is and what it is exactly he actually does? Who is Casey? I don't know. What does he really do? I don't know. That's really the best answer I can give you. I mean, I've spent a lot of hours speaking to Casey. I did joke that I think in May I spoke to him more than I spoke to my own husband

because the vocal booth I'm sitting in now, which, side note, has no air conditioning, and I'm in Phoenix, Arizona, 45 degrees most days. I'm so sorry. It's a bit emotional. I should be six stone but sadly I'm not the mountain is very hot but um he is a man who is incredibly intelligent even though he calls himself a dumb mountain boy all the time and I'm not falling for that one he's incredibly intelligent. He's a phenomenal storyteller. He is someone who is passionate about justice or his version of justice. He loves the United States. He believes in the Constitution.

He is married to the notion that we should all have this concept of freedom, which is so ingrained in the American way of life. He reveres women and children. He is passionate about his own family. He loves his own family. Am I scared of him? Yes, I am. Has he made me cry? Many times. Have I laid awake in bed at night thinking, trying to work through stories he's told me? Absolutely. I still don't really know, but that's why I think this story is so powerful. Because my job is to ask all the questions. Your job is to decide what you believe. Throughout listening to the episodes of American Vigilante that we have listened to so far, you get a very clear sense of how obviously mysterious Casey is. But you being

somebody who did spend months talking to him in the development for this podcast series, are we right in thinking though, despite all of that, despite any trust that you did build up with him, that all of the calls, all of the recordings that we have for this show come from zoom interviews and that even during the zoom interviews are we right in thinking that he never showed you his face so i don't know if i should tell you this really um oh go on he did he did eventually let me see him he he let me see him um he would not allow video to be recorded so we had to come up with some technical ways so that we would record the audio but he he did allow me to see him that took some time to build that trust. He is a man who's lived outside the law for many, many years. That's why I don't know his name.

That's why so many of the stories he told me are very old in terms of they didn't happen last week. He's been incredibly clever, I believe, in tweaking details that perhaps wouldn't matter in the great scheme of things that are little breadcrumbs that can throw you off the scent. I, as you've said, work for the BBC for a long, long time and I'm used to doing my due diligence when it comes to a story. I work with the most amazing, amazing team of producers at Crowd. And believe me, we spent a long time tearing our hair out,

asking those questions, doing as much research as possible. But as I said, Casey is a smart man. And if he doesn't want to be found, he's not going to be found. So how did you find him how did you come across him in the first place to tell the story well that was something that um it's it's one of those kind of long back stories that literally that go back years and years and years because as i said casey isn't somebody who trusts people immediately so it's a kind of network of fine connections that have happened over a period of time that led somebody

to contact me and bring me into Casey's world in in April this year but it's, yeah, it's a web. Wow. And when you first sort of Zoom met him, what were your first impressions and did they match up when you finally saw his face? I think with KC, everything is extra. So if you have a picture of him in your mind's eye, imagine it times 10. And that's really what it was.

I had a vision of who this man may be. And yeah, seeing him in the flesh, but not in the flesh because we haven't met, was pretty much times 10. Larger than life is a cliche, but it's really true. And for those of you at home, you listen to the recordings of Casey, you listen to the podcast, but you might still find yourself struggling to picture Casey in your head. And this next clip might just help with that. I want to ask you to do something for me. Yes, ma'am look i know you don't want to show your face on video but will you move to the side of the camera and then will you show

me your hand i want to yeah i can do that i want to see your hand. Okay, yeah, okay. That's, I don't even know how to describe that. Is that the size of a dinner plate? Yeah. Look at my hand. Yeah, you got pretty little hands. I got like these scars and cuts and broken bones. You know the Disney movie Moana? Amazing film. I'm going to have to watch it. You've got to watch it because I tell you what, she has to go and find this demigod. And he did something which he thought was great. And yet the people saw it as a huge error and a terrible sin and so he's been banished and when you just showed me your hand casey and i've seen the outline and i've

seen your wild curly hair you kind of look like maui and that's that is my nickname for you maui well i've been called maui i've been called hagrid i'd look that one up too i've been called Maui. I've been called Hagrid. I'd look that one up too. I've been called Shrek. Yeah, I've been called a few different names. In my peak condition, you know, I pissed napalm, fucked nuclear waste, and ate Constantino wire. I was a fucking badass. And that's a line out of a Clint Eastwood movie, but it fucking fit.

I weighed 26 fucking badass. And that's a line out of a Clint Eastwood movie, but it fucking fit. I weighed 267 pounds. I could run a 40-yard dash in 4.7 seconds. I could run a mile in my boots on uneven terrain in 4 minutes and 59 seconds. I could run 3 miles in 16 minutes and 42 seconds. I could do 148 push-ups, and that's with somebody laying in front of me with their hand underneath me in 16 minutes and 42 seconds. I could do 148 push-ups and that's with somebody laying in front of me with their hand underneath me in two minutes. So if that was then, what sort of shape would you say you're in now? So I'm nowhere near as fast as I used to be. But let me tell you something. I've gotten a lot fucking meaners i've gotten older when you said

larger than life obviously that conjures this sort of like characterful image of a person but he really is like just from his voice i'm always fascinated by people who are able to sort of spin stories without repeating themselves and he just doesn't he just did it feel like he'd said it a hundred times before or was did it feel very like spur of the moment as he was speaking to you it felt like he'd considered details he was going to leave leave in and leave out but this flowed he clearly he's clearly not reading it he's clearly not. You know, he's not stuttering or stumbling or slurring over things. What I found extraordinary is the attention to detail. And for example, he can talk in one story where he say, you know, I walked into a cantina and then I saw him,

you know, the man I'd been searching for for months. And he was wearing like one of those satchels slung across his shoulder. Well, you know, slung across his chest, you know, people who put them over like a kid going to school with a satchel, but it wasn't leather. It was like a canvas material. And there was kind of like frays all down the front where clearly he taken it on and off a bunch of times. And you think, why would you consider this level of detail? Why would you remember this level of detail? But having spoken to him about so many other subjects, he does have this recall where he will talk about a movie he loved as a kid and he can almost repeat it scene by scene for you. Or he'll talk about a piece of legislation that might have affected some work he was doing. And he'll be able to say, well, statute number 74 in, you know, and he will be able to reel it all off. He has this incredible recall that I think is what people are struggling with and go, well, how can he possibly remember all that from that long ago and it's like well why would he have made up irrelevant details if if he's doing that you know why would

he do that if they're not true and it feels like it fits with somebody who is living on the other side of the the law so to speak If you were living that kind of lifestyle for as long as Casey has been, I assume that one of the things you would become very good at or something that would allow you to live that life for so long is being able to notice things

that other people wouldn't and being able to have that kind of attention to detail as life is passing you by. So I don't find that particularly odd. I actually feel like it fits with him as a person yeah I would I would agree with you on that and I think as you get to know him more through the series because I asked a lot of questions which I think surprised him because I asked a lot of questions about him, about his life,

about aspects of his existence that have nothing to do with his work. And you can almost hear in his voice when I ask some of those questions where his mind is catching up. And he's thinking, oh, oh, I didn't know if we'd been talking about this. He, you know, like the blue touch paper when he's talking about a job he was on or some bad guy he was hunting down or the weapons that he used or how he modified a truck in order to be able to, I don't want to give too much away, but fit bodies inside and all the rest of it. Yet when you're asking him perhaps about aspects of his childhood,

you can almost hear the guard come down in his voice until he kind of slightly pulls himself together to think hang on I mustn't give too much away here I mustn't give too much away so um yeah he's uh he's a character and in terms of journalism it's such a labor intensive but like I can tell from the way you're speaking about and also listen listen to the episodes that we've listened to like it is a real like passion project but sort of logistically how did it work like we're not investigative journalists we uh we call ourselves bedroom djs at red handed like this there's not we don't do much in-depth interviewing of shady characters especially not on zoom so logistically like how did that work

would he just like send you a notification being like, I've got an hour today? Or is he dropping in whenever? Or is it quite scheduled? We did. We did put a schedule together because as much as you're completely right, this was a passion project. I also, you know, I'm a mother of two children and have other jobs going on. And so it wasn't a case that I could just sit around waiting for Casey to call.

So we did schedule wherever we could but things change as they always do and sometimes I'd have to hop on a bit early or hop on a bit late and sometimes he would message me and say have you got five minutes which I've come to understand means an hour um he doesn't do five minutes and you know sometimes he just wanted to talk sure as well as time went on sometimes I found he just wanted to connect and talk you know from a journalistic point of view when it comes to doing your due diligence you know feedback I've got so far from people you know some people are most people are enthralled a lot of people are saying oh it's clearly all made up and I'm like you don't know what's coming and you know do you really

think we would talk to someone who we absolutely didn't have a crumb of belief about, you know, but also saying that it's a leap of faith. And I'm just taking you on the journey that I went on. This man was presented to me. I did as much background as I could realistically, and I spent a long time, but then at some times you've got to take a leap of faith. You know, some of the greatest stories stories you do not know how they are going to end before you start telling them and that's what we had to do here because if we'd known the end kind of what's the point of telling the story but um it's uh it's just coming on that journey with me and again my job is not to tell you what to think my job is to let you know what I know and for you to make your own mind up. Absolutely. And, you know, we've covered some of the key themes that have already come up in American Vigilante, the amount of secrecy, the mystery involved in this, and also,

as we're going to get onto, the brutality of a lot of what happens. What did you tell your friends and family about who you were talking to over the months that you were researching and putting this podcast together I mean my my husband sometimes saw my face when I came out of recordings and said are you okay? Sometimes he heard me crying and said, are you okay? Because this was something that deeply affected me. And I think anyone who listens will be deeply affected. I know that quite often we'd record earlier in the morning here in the US. So I don't know where he is.

He's in the US. I don't know where he is. And as you know, the US is a big place in the time zones. So here in Phoenix, we're currently aligned with LA and the Pacific time. We're currently, sometimes we're with mounted time. It's complicated. I won't go there. My calendar's a nightmare though. But, you know, I don't know where he is. I won't go there. My calendar's a nightmare though.

But, you know, I don't know where he is. I don't know if he's East Coast, West Coast, North Side. I don't know. But generally we kind of record in the morning. And I think that's okay. Because as I said to you, you know, I've got other jobs. I've got other stuff going on in my life. And I think, well, we'll be all done by 10 o'clock.

That's great. And then I've got this to do, this to do, this to do. Take the kids to the doctor, walk the dogs, go to the supermarket, supermarket get all this done and I'm not kidding you where sometimes it would get to you know I'd come out of the little booth of dreams at 10 o'clock and go right let's get my big to-do list together I'll just um let me have a think about what Casey's just told me and I would look down and it was two o'clock in the afternoon and I'd done nothing apart from sit and ruminate and try and corroborate and try and piece together and follow some breadcrumbs that he's left. What did I tell other friends and family?

Minimal amounts. Because I didn't really know what to tell them. I didn't really know what to say. I know that I had a kind of vague chat with my parents who, my dad was like, oh, be very careful what you're getting into here, you know, in typical dad mode. My mum, I think I talked more to about some of the things that I found upsetting. I didn't mention it at all to my in-laws until a couple of weeks ago. It's hard, right? It's hard to say there's a thing and there's a person I'm talking to and I don't know who he is and I don't know if he's for real and he can be really upsetting and there's a whole world out there

that none of us know about that I do believe is real. Do you really want to know it's there? Because if so, come through this door with me. So it's just kind of a path you have to walk down really to understand what it's like to be in it I don't know ask me in a year girls I mean I as you can tell my brain really is still processing so much of what's been said to me over the last six months or so I mean I think it's just uh very

clear from like the impassioned way you speak about it this had a really profound effect on on you as a person and i think that partially might be something to do with uh casey being quite unpredictable uh and as you alluded to earlier like sometimes he'll chat sometimes he won't there are some areas he absolutely will not let you go to and i think the next clip we have sums that up pretty well. So you joined the military. We're not going to talk about the military, my dear. I don't want details. I know you don't want to tell me where you went or where you were stationed or which division you were in or anything. But what I really want to know from you is,

how did you feel about yourself during this time? I don't know. I don't even know how to answer that. I was happy. Did you feel proud to be serving? No. Why'd you leave? Cut myself shaving.

What's that mean? It means you got hurt. Okay, so the injuries you sustained while serving meant you had to leave. We're not going to talk about this. I'm just trying to get an idea whether it was that you'd served a certain amount of time and you were like, I'm done, I'm going to move on,

or whether it was something... Yeah, we're not going to go into that. That's my business. Okay. Wow, we're not going to go into that. That's my business. Okay. Wow. Okay. I mean, that is like a masterclass in assertive silence. We've done the odd interviews on this show. Like Hannah said, we're not investigative journalists, but we've certainly never had somebody tell us no repeatedly to every question that we had put together and come up with. So it seems like a

very obvious question to ask is how difficult that was as a journalist but tell us a little bit Sam how difficult was that and also if I can do very bad questioning technique and chuck another question in there a man that assertive and that bold in what he's going to talk about and what he's not going to talk about what happens when you disagree with Casey or his methods yeah I'm getting the feeling in my gut just thinking about it that I get when he's not happy uh it's not pretty he's a man who you've really clearly already ascertained won't say anything he doesn't want to and feels very strongly and very passionately about what he does and his moral code and i've had to on several occasions because we have this

very close relationship and yet it is a working relationship but it's also more than that because it's you know i'm asking him very deep and personal questions and he's sharing stories with me that i've never even imagined before. I've had to say sometimes, I need you to be clear, because sometimes he said, oh, you said to me, la, la, la, that you think that and you believe that. And I've said, hang on. I have never told you what I think.

I have never told you what I believe. I have asked you a question. And if I say to you, do you believe X, Y and Z? That doesn't mean I believe it. I'm asking you an objective question. I've had to make that really, really clear to him. Do not make this about me, Casey. This is about you and you are giving me your opinions and your beliefs.

I haven't shared any of my beliefs or opinions with you when it comes to our conversations. I haven't said, I think it's disgusting what you're doing. I think it's terrible you're working out the side of the law. Or, nor have I said, I think it's incredible what you're doing.

I think it's brilliant that you go and rescue these kidnapped children. I've asked questions about whether it's morally correct to do what he does. I've asked questions about whether he ever feels ashamed, whether he ever feels, you know, whether he doubts what he does and the methods that he uses. So I've asked these questions. So I think that's what I've had to be really, really clear with him sometimes when he's got angry with me, because he has got angry with me. And believe you me, when Casey smashes his fist down on the desk in front of you, even though it's across the internet, even though we're

on Zoom, you can almost feel your bones shake. So I think it's just being really clear to him that, hey, this beef isn't between you and me. I'm just asking the questions here. You know, that's, that's what I've had to be clear about. You're so brave. Like having to be so like, cause I mean,

you'd have to be completely convicted or someone like that is not going to take any shit from you. Like, you must've had to really like lay down the law in some respects. I think I asked him up front, do I need to be afraid of you? And I mean, he,

he said, I think you probably will be a bit afraid of me as a, as a kind of concept, or you will probably be afraid to hear some of the things I have to tell you but I'm never gonna hurt you and that's again talking about taking leaps of faith and leaps of trust I was gonna say I have to believe that honestly has it crossed my mind holy shit am I gonna am I ever gonna have to leave home or leave town or honestly yeah it's crossed my mind I mean I can completely understand why because one one of the things that the series

is absolutely jam-packed full is a very graphic fight stories and we've got a clip of one of those to play for you at home listeners into your ear holes and this one is casey he tracks down a bad guy who's called lents to a woodshed in canada um just just one of those have a listen i took my big coat off i took my gloves off i took off my night vision he came out and he got that load of wood with his arms and right when he's walking out of the woodshed i time my kick as good as i could time it. And I did. I timed my kick perfectly. I was going to hit him in the side of the knee.

He was going to go down. But Lentz slipped on the ice. And when he slipped, my kick missed his knee, and it hit him on the thigh. But because that's where all the strength is, he went down, the wood landed on top of him. He saw me, and he knew immediately who I was. And the fight was on.

He jumped at my legs, and we were down rolling around in the snow. It was knuckle and skull. He was hitting me. I was hitting him. Kind of hit a position where we both got to our feet. He cut my head pretty good. I mean, I was bleeding down my face and into my beard. I pounded him a little bit, he pulled out this big long knife and he

goes you're here to take me back aren't you? And I looked at him and I smiled I didn't say nothing. I reached around behind my back on my left side and I pulled out my asp. It's a retractable baton. So he came in at me with that knife pretty quick and all I did is I took that asp and I smacked him right on the side of the wrist and it busted his wrist and as soon as I hit that wrist his hand opened up that knife dropped and I got around behind him and I started choking his ass out hard as I could so as we're fighting you know he actually got weaseled around and got away from me again and he was almost facing me and I got both my thumbs and I buried both my thumbs into his eye sockets and he screamed. It sounded like somebody was tearing his guts out. When he did that I got around behind him again and I got that

sleeper on him this time, wrapped my legs around his waist and I choked him until he couldn't even move. He was done. Well, um, we've covered some pretty horrific things on this show but I think it'll always be the eyes. No eyes, no teeth. Can't it that's the rule Casey goes straight for the eyes as you can hear in that clip continuously throughout the series American Vigilante you can hear the intense amount of detail that he goes into when he's talking about the brutality that he's carried out and you do have to say when you're listening to some of these stories they sound quite far-ed some of them yeah but if he's making it up then you have to say that he has one hell of an imagination because Hannah and I are always very grateful that we don't actually have to use our imaginations very much we still we tell just true crime stories but Sam when you were interviewing

him did you feel like you believed Casey and the things that he was saying? Or did you land rather on the side that maybe he's some sort of massive fantasist? Where do you sit? And have you gone on a journey with that from the beginning? Well, I'll start with the last question first. Yes, absolutely. I've been on a journey. As I said to you, when I first said, OK, let's do this. Let's have these conversations. But I'm going to ask you a lot of questions. And he said, OK. And I might not answer all of them. And I was like, well, OK, I understand that. Because there's a lot at stake here. Yeah, I've definitely been on a journey.

What's really interesting is the differences in culture here so feedback I've got from Americans not all Americans because it's a big place and there's lots of different people here you know family in Connecticut not the same as a family in Alabama you know what I'm saying lots of different experiences going on but there are certainly people who are like, oh yeah yeah, yeah not even doubting for a moment that someone like him exists. Lots of people here

know somebody who knows somebody especially if you're in an area, you know perhaps in the southern states. Whereas in England I think people definitely are replying and saying, come off it, come off it. Are you kidding me?

And I think when I first spoke to KC, that was one of the first things I thought. But later on, we were talking about, and he said, what did you first think when you first started to speak to me? And I said, what do you think I thought of you? And he said, oh, I think you thought you were a bit, you scared of me and I said and he said was that right I said well yes I am afraid of you I said but you know my first thing was is this guy telling the truth he was shocked he was genuinely shocked and I was seeing his face by this stage and he was like really

it kind of didn't occur to him that I wouldn't believe him. And that I found extraordinary. Now, it might be because he's the world's greatest storyteller. And he's like, huh, how could she have seen through that so early on? Or is it just that he can't believe someone doesn't believe what he does because it's something he's done for 20 odd years? And that he completely believes is the right thing to do. He completely believes is the right thing to do. Do you know what? You're right as well. And you both have alluded to this, that yes, maybe he's just a fantastic storyteller it's really hard it's

really hard to tell convincing stories if i was saying to you now right tell me a great fight scene go you'd be like um uh so i walked in and i punched him in the nose it just sound utterly unconvincing if i did that you know yes he was the military, but you go and find me a veteran who can talk like that and talk through what? And he's come up with what? 50 different scenarios? And I'll tell you as well that he will refer back.

So maybe we talk about Lent's in an episode and what happened there and the story he told me there is extraordinary. But then a month and a half later we might talk about something else and he'll go well that was a bit like with Lentz because there I had those night vision goggles on and what happened was I wore those but what I'd done is I'd modified and he'll refer back now if he's the world's biggest fantasist, what's his real story? What's his day job?

Where has he found the time to create this entire other world? You know, this kind of Tolkien-esque level of detail of this other world. Maybe you believe that's what he has done. Isn't that kind of fascinating in itself? That's tipped me over the edge, honestly, Sam. I never would have thought about it in that way, but now I'm never going to stop. Like, what would he be doing?

Yeah, no, that's what I was going to say. Either way, whoever he is, it's a fascinating story because either he is exactly who he says he is, which is absolutely terrifying, or he isn't in which case i mean someone get him a book deal one thing he certainly does do apart from uh be quite intimidating is uh is hurt people and obviously sammy promised never to hurt you but something we think about quite a lot on red handed is is anyone capable of violence like is anyone if the right set of circumstances happen to them or the wrong set of circumstances, I should say, are we all

capable of being really violent? And we've got another clip coming up here where Casey makes some interesting claims about you, Sam. So let's have a listen to that. How do you feel about the concept of revenge? When I say the word revenge to you, what sparks up in you? Revenge can kill you. You know, revenge can be a very bad thing. It eats you from the inside out. But with that being said, we're all human. And I know that if somebody was to hurt my family or my loved ones, that there wouldn't be anywhere they could hide. And when I caught them, they would die very slowly. Do you think that every human being has that ability to hurt somebody else, really hurt somebody else if they've been wronged? The thought

of physically hurting somebody else, I can't imagine it. You become a mother bear, Sam. I know enough about you already. There's some grizzly in you, woman, and I see it. Okay, Sam. So you mentioned earlier, before we played this clip, about the other journey that you had been on with regards to wrestling over the ethics of what KC, before we played this clip, about the other journey that you had been on,

with regards to wrestling over the ethics of what Casey does or says he does. If something really bad were to happen to you, like he says, and you felt that maybe the police weren't doing enough to help you, would you call Casey? I suppose the question is, is my answer different now to how I would have answered five or six months ago and it's something I've thought about a lot and he asks me that question he asked me that question.

He asked me that question the final time that we spoke for this podcast. I'm going to let you wait and hear how that conversation went because uh i'd say it was it was significant okay that is fair enough we don't want to we don't want to ruin the whole story here but hannah i'll be interested to hear what you think okay we know who casey is we know what he's capable of we know that he is uh an american vigilante say you're there, something terrible happens, someone you love, something awful happens to them, they're kidnapped, whatever it might be. Would you go to Casey

and would you feel morally and ethically okay with that? Does he do ex-boyfriends? Sam? I can refer you. That's all I'll say. I've gotten in. What about you, Saru? It's hard, isn't it?

Because we often talk about vigilantes and we often talk about how it is not something that we would ever condone. It can spiral and these people are operating, like you said, Sam, their own code of ethics, their own moral compass that sits outside perhaps what the rest of us deem acceptable and I just feel like how can that not end up spiraling into something dangerous but then when you make it a personal argument yeah I would find it hard

not to say that I would do anything it took to get either vengeance or get a loved one back. And if listeners at home you want to find out what sam's elusive answer is we're going to finish on that bombshell so thank you so much sam for coming to join us and for your patience and your wonderful laugh and everyone listening at home you can go and check out american vigilante the podcast as we are recording this there are currently four episodes out right now so you can binge those straight away wherever you listen to your podcasts and new episodes are dropping every single Monday. Hannah and I listened to all of the ones that are out so far.

But we are still waiting on bated breath. To get to the end of the podcast series. But we absolutely loved it. As an original and fascinating podcast series. To add to any true crime fans lineup. So go download it now. And give it a listen. We are absolutely sure.

That after Red Handed, it will become your new second favorite True Crime podcast. So thank you so much, Sam. It's honestly been such a joy. And thank you also to Crowd Network for making this bonus episode possible. And we're going to leave you with a few words from the man at the heart of it all. Here he is, the man himself, Mr. Grizzly Voice, to see you out. I'm an American vigilante.

I have a question for you. What would you do if someone you cared about was abducted? Taken from you? Would you call me? Would you care about how I got them back? Would you care about what rules I had to break to bring your child back to you?

I'm Casey. Just asking you to think about it, that's all. What would you do? Download the podcast, American Vigilante, out now. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Cone. Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party, so. Yeah, that's what's up.

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