RedHanded - Bonus: 2020 Patreon Upcycle - When Your Child Displays Psychopathic Traits...

Episode Date: January 1, 2021

We wanted to celebrate and share some of our top picks from our 2020 Patreon releases, so here is possibly our most requested episode from the $10+ Patreon archives! In this bonus episode we released last summer, we talked with long time Spooky Bitches, Cassie and Mike as they told us about the challenges and difficulties that their family have faced in the midst of their son Arthur’s serious behavioural issues. Issues including: violence against others, animal abuse, a lack of remorse and callous unemotional traits. They share the major incidents that occurred, how Arthur is now being treated clinically and what they think the future holds for the 14 year old. Cassie and Mike reached out to us wanting to open up about this difficult topic to try and help anyone else who may be going through something similar, and also to give families like them a voice - we were honoured that they trusted us and we know that it will be received without judgement. Get your hands on regular bonus content and ad-free RedHanded episodes by signing up at www.patreon.com/redhanded   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And remember, if you become a patron, for just $2 a month, you can get all of your regular red-handed episodes ad-free. And for $5, you get all the ad-free regular episodes, plus weekly episodes of Under the Duvet and monthly episodes of In the News. For $10, you get all of that, plus you get a bonus episode, like this one once a month, and you get bonus monthly video content too. And for $20, you get all of that, plus a monthly interactive live stream, and even an exclusive red-handed enamel pin. And the best bit? You don't have to listen on the Patreon website or on their app.

When you sign up as a patron, you will get an exclusive RSS link that is unique to you. And you can plug that straight into your regular podcast player. So for example, like Apple Podcasts. And don't worry, there is even a very simple guide to walk you through how to do this. And then you can just kick back and relax and enjoy all your ad-free episodes and watch as your bonus content just automatically downloads onto your phone as normal. It's as easy as that. So while you enjoy this episode, head on over to patreon.com slash redhanded to take a look now. Hello everyone and welcome to a very special bonus episode for this month.

Hannah and I have with us today a frankly remarkable couple, Cassie and Mike. Cassie is a red-handed listener and long-time spooky bitch who actually reached out to us because she had been contemplating the idea of sharing her story. When we originally read her email, we were so touched that she would even consider trusting us with something so sensitive and no doubt scary to open up about. Cassie's son Arthur, who is now 14, displayed psychopathic traits from early childhood and today we're going to discuss the impact that this had on Cassie, Mike, their daughter Poppy and of course Arthur himself. As you guys listening can imagine this is a hard leap for Cassie and Mike to take. They're naturally fearful of judgment

and stigma but we know that all of you will receive this with nothing but love and understanding. So with that let's get started. Hello, how are you both doing? Okay thanks. Yeah, modelling through. Oh no and we actually have to say that Cassie is even more remarkable because she's currently suffering with sinusitis, which if anyone has ever had is one of the most horrific things. And she's still powered through to join us for this record today. So thank you even more for that, Cassie. You're welcome.

Thank you so much to both of you for being here and for being so generous with your time and story well I never thought we'd have the opportunity to do something like this so we're really quite humbled by you being with us today so thank you so much again I'll probably say it absolutely and actually that leads into my question my first question perfectly which is why Cassie did you feel compelled to want to share this story to have have it listened to have the story listened to yeah just to have have my voice heard that's that's been one of the big struggles through it all with with Arthur's behaviour, all of the attention is on him and it can feel like the rest of the family is forgotten.

You're kind of screaming into the wind a little bit. I think it's good that you guys provide a platform where... Raise awareness. Yeah. That it exists. And I think that's such a good point because um you're completely right we we really want to use our platform to be able to raise awareness of this and I know Cassie when we were first emailing back and forth about this really felt like anybody else who was out there

who was dealing with similar challenges or may go on to deal with similar challenges they're gonna feel probably quite lonely I don't know how many sort of support groups or networks there are for things like this, but I think you guys being a brave enough to take that step and put your voices out there. And also hopefully for you, there will be some benefit from sharing this story as well. Yeah, even if it's just hearing that there are other people in the same a similar situation it's just it's you get given this diagnosis and then it's you're kind of left to it you know there is no support group that i'm aware of there's you know i don't know anybody else with a child that's a psychopath you know i think that and because it's such a rare thing to happen at such a young age in particular that services aren't prepared for that they're

not set up to deal with the kind of challenges that Arthur presented and continues to so it's almost like you're playing catch-all you know I mean it's such a rare thing anyway and then for it to be in someone so young it's unheard of you mentioned there that so Arthur's 14 now is that right yeah both of you just mentioned that things sort of, you started to notice things when he was really, really young. Can you tell us at what age Arthur was when you first noticed that something might be quite seriously wrong? He always had what I call quirky habits.

But I just thought that was him being quirky and then he was about four when he was playing with a friend and one of my cats had just had kittens and he was using well he was throwing the kittens at the wall um saying they were balls and he threw one at the wall until it couldn't move and then sort of brought it in all limp. Luckily, it was all right. And then he was about five. He killed a rat with a Coke can. He was outside and he came in and he saw a rat in an alleyway, picked up an empty can of coke

and hit the rat until it was dead and he was five. And the normal sort of reaction to something like that that a kid would have, he didn't see, I know kids at that age you know that don't really see things the way you would expect an adult to but there was no hint of understanding that it was wrong no remorse yeah yeah she's two years older okay so you know you weren't a first-time mum you already had had a child and was that sort of a a way for you to see oh this is really very different from the experience I'd had with with Poppy yeah and I'd got I'd had friends that had children all the

same age you know you just as a mom you just you know you just I can't explain you just know there's something not quite right you just I can't I can't explain that feeling it's just you know and I think that that created a difficulty in explaining to those in a position to help, you know, how his behaviour was so unsettling at times. You know, you explain events, but the general feeling and his demeanour being slightly unusual. It's hard to get that across. He was disconnected. That's how he seemed very

sort of connected from the world right from the very beginning that's really interesting because yes we we obviously hear a lot of people talking about things like the mcdonald triad for example it's something that is is thrown around a lot and people obviously talk about sort of the bed wetting the animal abuse the fire starting you guys talked a bit there about sort of maybe animal abuse behaviours that felt immediately very unsettling and very out of the ordinary. Did you guys see him fitting in within that McDonald triad or was it other more unexpected things that you were just taken aback by or unsettled by? What were those early indications?

Very, very early. It was more just a series of unsettling things where once or twice, you know, you could sort of say, oh, it's just kids being kids. It's like time after time and there's a pattern with his behaviour in the way he sort of dips and troughs into immaculate behaviour where it's like golden child. You couldn't ask for a better child. And then anything could just trigger this flip. Sometimes it's nothing. I think early on, he's always been a very intelligent boy,

really intelligent. But along with that, there was the manipulation. And, you know, he could stop halfway through floods of tears and look you dead in the eye and say well if you just give us what i want this will stop and and then go back to crying again you know it's like a switch that one was because he didn't want to go to school that particular morning another morning he woke up and he put all the clocks in the every clock in the house back an hour so that we'd be late for school no reason he just just because and he was five

what an astonishing level of I don't think I came up with that idea till I was about 12 and then I was too scared to do it but listening to your stories I think the one that sort of stands out the most is the kittens and you just think like I've got younger siblings and like friends who've got kids and stuff and if they see a small animal they do want to touch it and they you have to remind them to do it gently but more often than not it's a it's a positive interaction so for it to be so far the other way at such a young age is really quite astonishing and you also mentioned that he could be this golden child did you did you ever feel like that was always to manipulate you into something or do you think that sometimes he did want to be good he's only it sounds awful to say but he's only good when he wants something

when there's a reward for him at the end of it benefits um i got put i got sent on a parenting course because i was told it was my parenting and they suggested it was kind of like super nanny style where you know you take a toy and put it in the box if he's been naughty and the consequences box. And none of that ever held any weight with him. It just, no consequences bother him, even now. We obviously tried to do a lot of background reading and research into this as much as we could ahead of this call and one of the things that we came across actually was this idea that children with these or generally people with these kind of traits don't respond very well or at all to

punishment. They're more rewards incentivized so rewards will have a much better ability to cut through to them than discipline or punishment or negative reinforcement so did you find that that was something very starkly different for example than with poppy yes poppy poppy is is normal like a stereotypical she's very very stereotypical teen you know with the Ugg boots and the Starbucks and

yeah I mean she's looking she wants to be a psychiatric nurse because her problems with she's had mental health problems um because dealing with Arthur growing up was it's had a toll on her very very much um in terms of their characters well they choke and cheese yeah she's she's more life of the party you know you she walks in and she's bright and breezy and she can make friends with anybody and whereas arthur would be the one in the corner sort of staring and yeah making people feel awkward they were just very very

different and it was just so obvious so speaking of the impact it's had on on you as a as a whole also being sent on a parenting course must have just felt absolutely awful. Oh, shit. Yeah, I can imagine. And I wanted to ask you, did that sort of worry you to a point where he was acting out, I assume, reasonably publicly in front of other people's children? That must have been quite scary, to watch these other parents looking on at you like it was your fault in some way.

I mean, even as young as five, six, he was facing being expelled from school I've been in phone calls home from work every day to go and collect him because they couldn't cope with him and they dragged him out of class to sit in with the head teacher every day because the teacher couldn't cope with him and yeah I had a few close friends with children at similar ages and it was it was embarrassing in in the end you just stopped going out because they just you know even friends they know they know but they still judge you know and distance themselves because you know in fairness to them is behavior times you you wouldn't want that around your kids no absolutely you know and that's understandable

but it's hard on the rest of the family to miss out in that way and and sometimes for poppy to miss out on socializing when you know yeah like as a family, even as a four, we didn't really do that because we couldn't. And did those sort of feelings of, I suppose, isolation to a certain extent, did that contribute to your tipping point of we've got to get help here more than a parenting course the final tipping point was arthur actually turned up to school with a pocket knife in his jacket and he'd shown it off to friends on the way to school and said that he was going to use it in self-defense against this enemy of his with arthur you're either his friend or you're his enemy you're there's no in between it had been put down to sort of just classroom hijinks and stuff had been said backwards and forwards

and Arthur took that as a threat and decided to take a knife into school um the teachers searched him because luckily he like I said he'd shown it to some kids on the way to school and these kids have gone in and told a teacher and they searched him and they found it and he was just like well yeah i was going to use it and there was there was no like remorse no guilt no no understanding of why it's wrong to take a knife into school it was just well he said something to me it offended me I was going to go and use this knife on him I just thought oh my god this I mean it had to go to the police anyway because it was a knife and that's when the ball sort of really started rolling and we got new diagnosis

wow and actually with that then when you did um take Arthur in after this particular incident what was the kind of response from either the doctor or the mental health professional that you saw at this stage because so do you know there was a maybe a re-diagnosis what was it that they had diagnosed him with before and what were they now saying it was originally he didn't actually get any sort of diagnosis um I took him for an assessment I couldn't tell you what it was for they they sent me for this assessment and Arthur was model child and they they just said basically that I'd got I'd split from Arthur's dad and when he was three and they said he emotionally was stuck at three and I had to regress him back to there and bring him forwards and that was it I was just left to it and there was no support there was nothing more than that it was just

this is what you Cassie need to figure out how to do yeah yeah take him back emotionally to age three and bring him forwards how does one do that? yeah from there it was it went to trips to acorns and cams who they're great services but you know specifically for

kids in certain situations you know Arthur's situation it being largely due to his own choices for kids in certain situations, you know, Arthur's situation, it being largely due to his own choices, he freely admitted that when he had these appointments and assessments, he would tell the assessor whatever he felt they needed to hear to make it stop and he could just go back to normal.

I mean, he told the assessor that that the last kind of diagnosis that we got was that arthur's been put on adhd medication to try and sort of control his impulses but he doesn't have adhd we've been told when he turns 18 he will be getting a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder and then from then they can start the treatment because he'll be 18 and they can do something but up until then it's just ADHD medication to try and control the impulses and two-to-one supervision. That was that kind of... A lot of events came about at the same time. Yeah, the tip of the iceberg.

There was sexual assaults that came up after. I mean, 12 different sexual assaults. On boys and girls. And what age range was that during? High school. Okay, Wow. And to come back to the diagnosis, obviously, of them saying, oh, it's ADHD, we're medicating him for that. And then once he turns 18, we will reassess the situation and provide a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder. I right Cassie and Mike in understanding that at this point in this country possibly in every country they do not give a diagnosis of antisocial personality disorder before the age of 18 and most likely you are going to get a diagnosis of something like a conduct disorder plus ADHD

and then that's why they're waiting until that age point because they just literally can't do that at this point yeah yeah i mean the was it a psychiatrist yeah that was the psychiatrist that was sort of comes he actually said to us go away and read the psychopath test by ronson amazing book absolutely brilliant it's arthur to a t every one of them he went through the checklist with us and arthur hits now he hits everyone he hit at the time it was everyone except for one i think he he said to us that he had never seen someone as young as Arthur meet so many of the criteria. It sort of took him back a bit.

He actually said to Arthur, because at the time Arthur was being investigated by the police, and he actually said about the, you've got to think about what can I get out of this situation, like direct it in a good way rather than a bad way. Sort of like if I want to be able to go about my life free, get a good job, you know, be successful, get lots of money, then this is how I do it.

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to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him.

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You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Or if you're just thinking, I want to, you know, touch these kids or take these things or whatever, you're not going to get that goal. So try and steer your sort of wants in a positive direction. Again, that kind of reward based rather than um chastising him for the things

he's doing because that's not probably going to resonate with the kind of being told you know this is possibly one of the most um brazen cases of this i have seen in somebody so young from a psychiatrist but simultaneously being told there's nothing we can really do until he's 18. How counterintuitive does that feel to you guys? Because obviously some of the research that we've looked into, you know, there is that stigma about not wanting to label children too young and the hesitancy to provide those kind of names or diagnoses before they turn 18. But then a lot of the research potentially says if you can start younger, start putting in interventions that are more geared towards the antisocial personality and just call it what it is, you might have more success. How do you guys feel? Do you feel it's right not to label children until they're 18? Because we do know also the research shows that not all children that show these kind of traits in early life continue to have them into adulthood. Or do you wish there was more they were doing for Arthur now? I wish there was more they were doing for Arthur now I wish there was more they were doing for him and I think they should just assess each

case as it goes because yet they could grow out of the whatever and that's great but then those that don't if if they've had the treatment from early on, then they stand more of a chance at having a normal life. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like the journey to what frustratingly sort of is I would it sort of sounds like a half diagnosis because you know what it is, but it can't be that for another four years. And that must feel eternally frustrating so in the sort of diagnostic process was there any sort of brain chemistry testing or scans on his brain or anything or was it just uh behavior-based evidence I suppose behavior-based I really want him to have the brain scan and the the home that he lives at they really want him to have one as well because they you know you just take one look at the amygdala you know and you can know

i think just having a fuller picture of the individual that that's been kind of a frustration from day one in that a lot of what we've said to social services to cams for a long time went ignored or taken with a grain of salt and they don't seem to be building up the full picture of the individual rather than they've got a sort of tick sheet and i mean with arthur there's there was us screaming for help there was school there was the police and social services were still looking at us like we were going oh well he's just an old kid and we don't want him and i had to ask for them to take him because I couldn't cope. They actually made me say, I can't cope with him. Please will you take him?

And that broke my heart because I want to keep him, but I can't. And to force me to do that yeah it was shit we had a terrible situation so much worse and especially afterwards we just left you know because of his behavior we'd been told by the police, you know, that we couldn't let him out unsupervised. We couldn't leave him in the house unsupervised. He couldn't have access to the internet because he would send, you know, threatening messages to his victims. Inappropriate pictures.

You know, all these sort of restrictions in that we were trapped as well we were literally we had locks on all the doors because we were that scared of him he wasn't you know he's 14 but he's a big lad and his behaviour

had become increasingly aggressive threatening and sexualised as he aged and odd little things like we could wake up in the middle of the night and find him stood silently at the side of a bed staring at he'd act like there was nothing wrong with her. Yeah. He would, you know, he would burst into his sister's room while she was changing. He would look at her inappropriately, make her feel uncomfortable. Inappropriate comments. It just, it was like a boiling pot.

Yeah. And we were all trapped because we couldn't go out with him, but we couldn't stay in with him as well. And then, you know, to then on top of that, be forcing Cassie into saying, you know, I don't want my son at home anymore. You know, through all this, he's still our boy and we love him. You know, we do. we want the best for him but at the same time

we kind of forget what he's doing what he what he continues to do and the best for him as well as us was for him to be in a place where he and everybody else was safe yeah because it's not just that he's a danger to other people he's a danger to himself he's got no awareness of of danger whether that be himself or around him it just danger doesn't exist to Arthur he thinks he's unstoppable in a lot of ways yeah Because he has been. He's got away with so much. When he first got taken into care, he got put in a house where he basically ran

the place. It was a treat for him. That's great for children in care that are victims, but Arthur wasn't a victim he had created victims and he was being given playstations and well Poppy was left here broke up he got given a holiday he got to Spain they went to Spain well Poppy just she got not didn't even get a phone

call from social services or anything it's so difficult and actually I'd love to pick up on a point that you mentioned there about how he didn't know what fear meant or like what what danger meant and I think this is such a common thing that we see um talked about in the research especially around people and especially children with these kind of traits where they're they're fearless and that's how they're described. And I think people can misconstrue that as being like, they're really brave and they're really bold. But it sounds to me like what you're saying is what the research says, which is, no, they just don't know what is dangerous. They don't have that fight or flight response. There's no, there's's zero fear which is such a biological and in

biologically important factor that we as humans have to sort of rein in our behavior and it sounds like Arthur is a typical case for somebody who absolutely lacks that fundamental part of him um yeah absolutely I mean he ran away from home and went and knocked on somebody's door, just some strange random person's door. He was like, I need help, please will you let me in? And luckily they rang the police and the care home that he's at managed to find him. It could have been anyone's door that he'd knocked on. He didn't realise the danger he was placing himself in. He just thinks, well, I'll do this and I'll get what I want out of it.

Yeah, he's very sort of sighted towards his goal and anything that's in the way, it doesn't matter. You've mentioned that you don't feel like you were ever supported in the way that you needed it, either by doctors or by social services. In an ideal world, what do you think needs to change in the way that you needed it either by doctors or by social services do you in an ideal world what do you think needs to change in the system i think they need to listen they actually need to listen to what they're being told and rather than trying to make it fit their tick sheets and their little boxes actually deal with the situation that's in front of you rather than

sort of trying to make it fit the theme that they've got i think all of the social workers have been involved have had the absolute best of intentions but it's overwhelmed yeah the working in a system, it isn't designed to support situations like this. I think it needs to be a completely separate system that deals with situations like this. I think there are children that need protecting and social services should do that, but it should be a completely separate thing that deals with children that cause harm absolutely and i think you know we talk about on this show a lot the idea of social services being you know public funding cuts being chronically under-resourced not being adequately equipped to deal with some of the challenges and you know we can say there are so many things and children often slip through the cracks. But when it's something like this,

we know that this is a very high risk situation. So, yeah, absolutely. I would absolutely back up your claim that this is something that needs more attention, more resourcing and being dealt with in a separate way, because what is, you know, where is this going to go in the future? And I know we touched a little bit upon the discussions of Arthur currently being diagnosed, or at least being treated for ADHD with a view to reassess that when he turns 18 in four years time. How involved are you guys currently now with Arthur's treatment what's going on with him um or is that kind of decision making out of your hands and you're just being regularly updated what's the situation right now medication wise um I mean it's kind of out of our hands really he sees an ADHD team for the medication but that's through the care home they they do all that we're involved in if they wanted to move him or do anything sort of major we can certainly get

involved there but in was it January yes January um I signed over half of the parental rights just so that if he has to have a small operation at the dentist I don't have to go because he's about an hour and a half away now um just so I don't have to go all the way up there to sign a form for him to be able to go to the dentist in terms of the treatment plan we're're copied into meetings and involved in, well, virtually. Yeah, lots of Zoom meetings. Yeah. I don't think we really have much of a say in the general way of things at the moment. It's down to social services um i've got no faith in them

at all and i've made that very clear luckily the home that he's in is excellent yeah they're incredible and the the staff there have gone out of their way to support all of us. Yeah. And keep us informed and run things by us. And, you know, doing the courtesy of, if they've got a question about Arthur, rather than making assumptions or going to social media, they'll go to his mum. Because Arthur will, he lies a lot. For example, he told the care home he'd never had a roast dinner,

just really silly things. And they phoned up and said, look, you know, has he ever had a roast dinner? He said he always had toast. I was like, no, you know, we cook. It's silly little things, and they always check, you know, is this, and it's made note of. Yeah. They'll come, they'll involve us in a way that other agencies haven't.

Yeah. Yeah. Could you tell us a little bit more about the home itself and sort of how you discovered it and how Arthur ended up there and possibly who are the other kids that are in there? There are no other kids. He's out in the middle of nowhere. It's set up to take two kids,

but because of Arthur's specific needs, they decided to keep him as the sole child bear. And it was found through social services. It was a real struggle because finding a place that had no children yeah I mean they said he cannot go

with other children it was really difficult because all the homes are full and this one just happened at the right time to become empty yeah he got sent there and in all honesty he's blossomed since he's been there and to see him now compared to two years ago it's it's incredible to see but it's also really worrying that he's still at the level that he's at after two years of solid 24 hours a day work with him.

What improvements have you guys seen and what other sort of key characteristics that are still alarming to you? As you said, Cassie, you know that you still haven't seen more progression with certain traits is is sorry it's general sort of interactions with people are slightly better less awkward yeah he's always been socially awkward he's never known how to hold a natural conversation or and and that's always been a difficulty but now he's he's polite he's he he makes an attempt i think that's that's the big the big change in terms of behavior he's still aggressive um probably more so um than he was but he his temper flares to the point where he's breaking walls and walls and breaking furniture and appliances regularly. And he has assaulted staff numerous times. That's sexually and physically as well.

Yeah, violence. I think the main thing stopping the wider behaviour is the fact that he doesn't have the opportunity as much now. He's supervised all the time at school. He's followed. So there is very little opportunity for him to do things. There have still been accusations at the new school, but that's... that's yeah that's

ongoing um but just the fact that he can't do these things is good as soon as they've sort of let the reins go a little bit he's always shown that he can't be trusted and they've had to pull them back in he got a like a card that they can load money on so that he can go into a shop and just buy things so he's got a bit of independence and the first thing he said was oh great i can get a machete and they were like arthur. Why would you want a machete? It's still worrying. And that's two years of all this work. They give them regular sort of workbooks and online things to work through, focusing on, you know, violent behavior or sexualized behavior, consent. All the things that we've always gone through with them, you know violent behavior or sexualized behavior consent all the things that we've we've always

gone through with them you know we've been after sorry arthur is very he believes there should be no age of consent um and had it explained to him exactly what that means and he says no if you know if a child decides that they're in love then they're in love and there should be no age of consent and that's worrying yeah after all this time after all you know his work with the police social services the home cams acorns the youth offending team he still wants these views and he's not budging on those and that's terrifying and the thought of them hurting more more people it just fills you with dread what do you i suppose i've just been trying to formulate this question in my head and i'm not doing a good job but what what do you want for him, I suppose? What is your ideal future for him and do you think it's achievable?

He can accomplish anything that he wants. He's got an IQ of 143. Yeah, he's a clever lad. He can do whatever he wants, but it's his choices. Nobody can steer him. He seems on a path of destruction at the minute. I mean, this came from a psychologist and the forensic cams who work with him a lot and are still trying to work with him.

Unfortunately, he's refusing at the minute. He's refusing to talk to anybody, like us, anybody at the minute. But, you know, like they have said, his behaviour, he's well aware of what he's doing. He knows what he's doing and he knows right from wrong, but he's choosing to behave that way, where he is figuring out a way to persuade him to choose the right path because he's got away with things for so long he's just of the mindset

he's invincible and i don't know where it's going to end i think when he's 18 and he's out of the care system, I dread to think. I dread to think. I can't think. I mean, more than one professional has said that once he's 18, he's likely to offend and end up in prison. It's basically just waiting for something big enough to happen for him to get put into the court system for then things to really

happen it's it's terrible oh that is absolutely heartbreaking it really is i feel genuinely so moved by your story i don't even know what the right sort of adjective is these are the kind of things that we sort of we watch we all watch documentaries on you watch movies about you read an article about because it's it's interesting it's something so outside of the norm for what most people experience but to to sit and listen to you guys so openly talk to us about the challenges that this has brought about for not just a child that you clearly love so much but also for your entire family is heartbreaking and uh yeah I just hope for you guys and for Arthur that there has been some movement in the two years hopefully in the next four years he has there that that hopefully they

can they can make a bit more headway with him I just don't know what to say more than that uh Hannah you take over I mean I'm barely keeping it together over here but the good news is uh Cassie and Mike you are both natural podcasters you guys are amazing we do this all the time with people who are professionals as well, professional interviewees. And this has been hands down the best interview that I've certainly done. I think Hannah probably feels the same. and B for feeling like you wanted to take time out of your busy lives and schedules with all this going on to sit down and have this conversation with us we are eternally grateful thank you for listening yeah thank you both it's really nice I mean especially you know as as the parents, or Cassie, as the mother of a kid like this, your voice isn't heard. You do go ignored.

And there's others out there feeling as frustrated and as lost. You know, your world, it's turned upside down. And you guys are giving a voice to that and and showing the other side that's if there's even one other person who can hear this and go oh god that sounds like something you know yeah then, yeah, great. So, get this. The Ontario Liberals elected Bonnie Crombie as their new leader. Bonnie who? I just sent you her profile. Her first act as leader, asking donors for a million bucks for her salary.

That's excessive. She's a big carbon tax supporter. Oh yeah. Check out her record as mayor. Oh, get out of here. She even increased taxes in this economy. Yeah. Higher taxes, carbon taxes. She sounds expensive. Bonnie Crombie and the Ontario Liberals. They just don't get it. That'll cost you. A message from the Ontario PC Party. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made.

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