RedHanded - Bonus - Kate Webster: The Real Life Sweeney Todd

Episode Date: June 7, 2021

Thanks to ‘NOW’, and the new show ‘The Nevers’, we’re taking all you spooky bitches on a trip to Victorian London for an extra special bonus episode. And it’s a wild one...in fact, today’s episode resulted in one of the most sensational trials of the time - so big, that the future King of Sweden made the trip all the way to The Old Bailey just to watch! In January 1879 Mrs Julia Martha Thomas hired Kate Webster, a petty criminal, to be her live-in maid. A month later Mrs Thomas’s neighbours would complain of a foul stench coming from the woman’s home. Things only became weirder when Kate was seen wearing her boss’s clothes and allegedly selling jars of ‘Best Dripping’ to pub landlords… Was Kate Webster the real-life Sweeney Todd? Strap yourself in for theft, murder, an interesting stew, and even a cameo from the great Sir David Attenborough. Cast your Listeners’ Choice Awards vote here: https://www.britishpodcastawards.com/vote Become a patron: Patreon Subscribe to our new YouTube Channel: YouTube - Subscribe Pre-order a copy of the book here (US & Canada): Signed copies - US & Canada Pre-order on Wellesley Books Pre-order on Amazon.com Pre-order a copy of the book here (UK, Ireland, Europe, NZ, Aus): Signed copies - UK, Ireland, Europe, NZ, Aus Pre-order on Amazon.co.uk Pre-order on Foyles Follow us on social media: Instagram Twitter Facebook Visit our website: Website Contact us: Contact   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hannah. I'm Sruti.

And I think this is the first time we've ever done two episodes in one day, but we have. This is our second record of today. And we are delighted to welcome you to a very extra special bonus episode of Red Handed as if you don't already have enough. And this one is specifically brought to you in partnership with NOW. NOW are currently streaming the highly anticipated, groundbreaking new series, The Nevers. The Nevers takes us on an exciting ride through the smoky, dirty, top-hatted era of Victorian London. And although the series is set roughly 200 years ago, it cleverly, we thought, exposes

a very fundamental truth about humanity that still exists today, our fear of those who are different. The Nevers is set in the final years of Queen Victoria's reign. And what was the last year of Queen Victoria's reign, Saruti Bala? What I didn't realise we were going to be doing a history fucking test. I actually don't know. You actually don't know? No. It's 1901. Everyone knows that. 1901. Okay. Well, now I know. Thank you. You're so welcome. So just before 1901 is when The Nevers is set. It centres around a group of outcasts, mostly women, called The Touched, who manifest unique abilities, some charming, some very disturbing.

And what Hannah and I loved about The Nevers, because, yes, we have binged all of it, is that it's the kind of perfect fantasy, sci-fi, period, drama, thriller mix. That's like the closest I can get to describing what genre it fits into because it doesn't fit into one. It's everything. When I was watching it, I felt like it's very like steampunk Victoriana. Yes, exactly. Those are the two words that jumped to mind.

And it's all based around these champions of a new underclass banding together in a world undergoing huge change and revolution, industrial and otherwise. It's a strong, female-led, supernatural, dark and edgy, yet witty show that's thoroughly British. And so of course, we're now reached out about working together to promote The Nevers. We jumped at the chance. I would love to describe us as strong, female-led, dark, edgy, yet witty, and sometimes supernatural. And British, obviously.

We definitely tick that box. The other ones, I'm not sure. Um, that's it. And it wasn't just because we feel like all of the descriptions of the Nevers is a perfect fit for what we would like to describe Red Handed as. But it was also something we jumped at the chance at because it's set in a time period that we both love. And one that you guys request all the time endlessly. Victorian London.

It's not one that we get to explore often on the show because the old and timey cases, they're hard. But we're doing it today. So everybody strap yourselves in. Yeah, the old and timey cases we tend to avoid because they are difficult. But what that means is when we eventually decide to do one, we're pretty spoiled for choice because we generally leave them alone. This one is a special one. The case we're looking at today resulted in one of the most sensational trials of the time. So let's start today's episode off by doing a little Victorian London scene setting, shall we? I think this is why I enjoy this period so much, because of just like the imagery that immediately jumps to mind when you say those two words, Victorian and London. Yeah.

You see the like plumes of choking city fumes pumped from towering workhouses, laying low over the sprawling muddied streets. Cobbled, obviously, naturally. The rich and the poor lived virtually one on top of the other back then, in cramped city dwellings under the smoky grey skies. Winding alleyways gave host to all manner of shady figures, and of course, whispers of the Ripper hung heavier than the fog. London at this time was entering a period of immense change,

change that churned out endless horrors, brutal killers and terrifying folklore. And also, I think, worth mentioning, something that I enjoy about London, particularly having lived here for so long, most of these buildings are still there. Oh, yeah. You can go, like, we're going to talk about pub later on still there. Yeah. Still standing. Absolutely because they did a very good job during the wars to just like shut London off like blackouts so it was all the other cities unfortunately that got bombed to fuck and London still has a lot of its historic buildings which actually is really interesting because when you

watch the Nevers if you've never been to, it's kind of perfect because they shoot the whole thing on site in London. And they can do because they don't need the scenes or like any settings because London's still got those buildings kicking about, which is great. Do you know what? I was cycling through Southwark the other day, which I don't generally go south of the river because I'm allergic. It's like a film set. It's mad the way it looks down there. It's like right, right, right next to the water. It's really quite something. Absolutely. So that's why it kind of lent itself so well to this time period and to this show, The Nevers. Perfect on location filming.

And we'll be back to London in just a bit because our story today, although it centres in Victorian London, it's actually going to begin in Ireland where Kate Webster, born Catherine Lawler, was born the daughter of a poor but respectable family in County Wexford in around 1849. Victorian Wexford would have been far greener than London, but it was equally as grey and far more isolated. Little is known about Kate's childhood or her upbringing,

as is the case with most olden-timey cases, her autobiographical accounts have been proven to be quite unreliable. Here is what we do know. Wouldn't it be so nice to be from a time where you could just make it up? Oh, absolutely. That's fully what Kate Webster does. Maybe I'll just reappear and reinvent myself. I've tried it twice, and three countries, always end up the same. Kate, like a lot of children, had a habit of stealing. Did you ever steal anything? No. Were you too busy setting things

on fire? I was just setting things on fire. I know, as you said that, I was like, God, are kids all fucking stealing? Yeah, definitely. Maybe like in Victorian London slash Wexford? Nah, all kids Nick stuff. No, I didn't. I was just setting things on fire, which was my favourite thing to do. I think I stole sweets once from the newsagents and then I had to tell the priest in confession because I felt so bad. That's quite a glimpse into Hannah's childhood right there. Thank you. Yeah, what a snapshot. That's all you need to know. Kate was a little tea leaf and this thievery became a compulsive act.

By her early teens, Kate had become well known to Irish law enforcement and locals as a skilled pickpocket. Kate claimed that age 13, she became romantically involved with a sailor named Captain Webster. It wasn't going to be poop deck scrubbing Webster, was it? It was going to be the captain. The Captain Webster. It wasn't going to be poop deck scrubbing Webster, was it? It was going to be the captain. The Captain Webster. I feel like, how old do you have to be to become a captain, though? Like, 13, Kate? Or he's just like a little kid on the boat who scrubs shit down

and he tells Kate that he's a captain because what's she going to fucking know? He's actually the ship's parrot. So Kate claims that she married this man slash parrot and then went on to have four parrot human children. According to her, all four of these children died, as did her husband, all before she turned 15. Which, if you do the maths, human-parrot hybrid problems aside, does seem highly unlikely, if not totally impossible.

We are, of course, aware that twins exist, but still unlikely. And as for all of them dying, well, Ireland in the 1800s was a hard place to live and definitely to raise a family. People were plagued with disease, fever, dysentery, and many other sicknesses, all of which had led to deadly consequences, especially for the lower classes. But again, the accounts of all these familial deaths came from Kate herself. And as far as we can tell, there are no official records to support her story. Though how carefully people were keeping track of every single death in the 1800s, we also don't know. So let's just go with Kate's version for now and this takes us to 1864 where at age 15 Kate without a husband and children was in trouble again with the law and

this time she was sentenced to two years in prison on multiple counts of larceny. When she got out Kate once again returned to a life of crime. And after a particularly successful robbery, she got together enough money for the ferry to Liverpool. But it wouldn't exactly be a fresh start, as her new life in England was filled with the same petty criminal activities as before. And within a few years, Kate went to prison again for larceny and faced another four years of hard labour as an inmate. When she was eventually released, Kate, clearly having had enough of the North, packed her bags and headed to London,

more specifically to Rose Gardens in Hammersmith. And it would appear in Rose Gardens, at least for a short time, Kate laid low, becoming close friends with a neighbouring family called the Porters, who we will come back to in a bit. She also found a job working as a housekeeper for a posh family in Notting Hill. And it was at this job that she met a man who we can only find referred to anywhere as Strong. No first or last name, just a descriptive word. So she and Strong hit it off and soon she moved in with him and became pregnant. I just think of one of those like olden timey carnival strongmen. Yeah.

Just strong. Or like Lady Chatterley's lover situation where he's just like really gruff and doesn't say anything. Or like a really, really tiny man. Yes. Everyone calls him strong. On the 18th of April, 1874, Kate gave birth to a son, John W. Webster, in Kingston-upon-Thames. Strong abandoned her soon after the birth of their son, leaving Kate a poor, unmarried woman with few options but to return to a life of crime. Now some sources that we did dig up state that Kate was also a sex worker at this time, meaning that perhaps Strong wasn't the baby's father.

They always say that about everyone. Every, like, Victorian case where, like, she's not an absolute saint, they're like, yeah, definitely sex work as well. Prove it, Victorian London. I need receipts. And we couldn't prove it. We couldn't find any information to support this claim. And I don't know, did this really lead to strong pissing off?

Who knows? We don't know him. We don't even know his actual name. It was also a very easy out at the time because it's not like they had any way to actually check if the baby was theirs. Like, you know, some sort of fucking Victoriana, Jeremy Kyle just handing out DNA tests as people scream at each other. Steampunk DNAna test yes where you just spit into a bucket and then someone cycles really fast there you go and

then it changes color and it's like something flies out of it you're the baby's dad i don't know they didn't have that that's the point and yeah we just don't know what the real reason was though i did think it was interesting that back in that day and age, like the baby was born in 1874, Kate gave the baby her surname. Maybe it's because she also didn't know Strong's surname. I don't know. But interesting. It's Captain Webster's surname. It's not her surname. Oh, yeah, yeah. But it's not his kid because he's dead. Yes. And a parrot. And that. So anyway, we don't know why he left, but Lieve Strong so once again on her own now with a baby to feed kate moved frequently around west london she would also use various different names and aliases wherever she went including webb webster gibbs gibbons and laura which if you remember is her

original name and it is said that the kind of scam kate would play would be that she would rent a room in the houses of upper middle class people. And then she would rob all of their valuables, sell them on and then run off into another borough to basically run her con again. And this scam may have worked for a while, but it soon caught up with her. And Kate ended up in and out of prison for the next three years and we included this because i just really enjoyed it as a description because kate is described in a police report as being quote a tall strongly made woman of about five foot five inches in height with sallow and much freckled complexion and large and prominent teeth so she stands out is five foot five tall? That's three inches taller than you.

I know, but in Victorian times, I feel like that would have been fucking tall. Is it? Yes, in the 1800s. What, because everyone's got rickets? Yes, in the 1800s, I think to be five foot five would have been fucking huge. Like, do you know the average height of British women now is only like five foot three? Like the average is very low. Why am I such a giant? I mean, it is the mean average, which is probably not very accurate at all, of course. But I think 5 foot 5 Victorians, they'd have been like, whoa, she's a giant.

What do you mean, of course? Have I been falsely believing averages my entire life? Is it actually not a thing? Oh, no, of course they're a thing. But I think with things like height, this is a very boring sidetrack that I'm going to take us on. But when you're looking at things like height and weight, you want to look at something like a modal average, which is like what most people in that group would be. Whereas the mean average is when you add everybody's heights together and then divide it by the number of people, which is going to be thrown off by people who are very

short and people who are very tall. So the modal is what you want to go with so yes you're welcome everyone let's get back to the case how i skimmed a b in gcc maths i will never ever know not long after leaving prison kate was again arrested for larceny and sentenced to a further 12 months she just can't get enough while locked up her baby john was looked after by someone called Sarah Crease, a close friend of Kate's who was a housekeeper for a wealthy woman in Richmond. When Kate finally got out of prison, she went to work with Sarah and it was through this job that she was recommended to Julia Martha Thomas. Mrs Thomas, a widow in her 50s, was an ex-school teacher and lived alone at two Mayfield cottages in Richmond, which is in West London. Mrs Thomas, a widow in her 50s, was an ex-school teacher and lived alone at two Mayfield cottages in Richmond,

which is in West London. Mrs Thomas was described as a small, well-dressed lady with an excitable temperament. Mrs Thomas was lower middle class, but would often dress up and wear expensive jewellery, giving the impression of wealth. Classic new money behaviour. For her, hiring a live-in servant was probably in equal parts

due to needing a bit of help and keeping up appearances. I just realised that, I know we did the research on this, but she's like in her 50s. So many places describe her, like when you look at actual reports from Victorian times, as being elderly. Well, in the Victorian times, making it past 15 was a, you know, you're already an adult, get to the mill. Yeah, I mean, that is the vibe. That is the vibe. So, get this. The Ontario Liberals elected Bonnie Crombie as their new leader.

Bonnie who? I just sent you her profile. Check out her place in the Hamptons. Huh, fancy. She's a big carbon tax supporter, yeah? Oh, yeah. Check out her record as mayor. Oh, get out of here.

She even increased taxes in this economy. Oh, get out of here. She even increased taxes in this economy. Yeah, higher taxes, carbon taxes. She sounds expensive. Bonnie Crombie and the Ontario Liberals. They just don't get it. That'll cost you. A message from the Ontario PC Party. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Laney Jacobs,

a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. And so on the 29th of January, 1879, Mrs. Thomas hired Kate Webster as her mate. But the relationship between the two women quickly soured. According to Kate, Mrs. Thomas would go over every room once she was done cleaning it,

pointing out all of the spots that Kate had missed and showing a, quote, nasty spirit towards her. Kate grew angry at Mrs. Thomas, occasionally even becoming aggressive towards her. Mrs Thomas also started asking her friends to stay over with her because she said she didn't like to be alone with her maid. After a month of service, it was decided that Kate would leave No. 2 Mayfield Cottages. Kate pleaded with Mrs Thomas to keep her on for just three more days, saying that she had nowhere to go. Taking pity on Kate, probably because she also had a small child with her, Mrs Thomas allowed her to stay a further three days until Sunday the 2nd of March.

On Sunday, which was only a half day of work, Kate went to the Hole in the Wall pub at the end of the street. Hole in the Wall pub still standing in Richmond today. Nice. She was meant to return before 4pm to help Mrs Thomas prepare for her evening church service. Imagine being so pathetic that you couldn't possibly imagine getting dressed for church without someone helping you.m. to help Mrs. Thomas prepare for her evening church service. Imagine being so pathetic that you couldn't possibly imagine getting dressed for church without someone helping you. Yeah, that's Victorian women for you. It's also why women's buttons are the other way to men's buttons because it's harder to do it yourself. And why women's clothes are less likely to have pockets because if you don't have pockets, you're more reliant on other people to carry things for you.

Facts. Facts. Fashion facts. How clothes are the patriarchy. Moving on. So even though it was a Sunday and even though she was supposed to be back at the house before o'clock, Kate stayed in the pub and she got too drunk. When she eventually got home, she got into a blazing round with her boss, Mrs. Thomas, as she did help her get dressed. That night, several members of the congregation noted that Mrs. Thomas was very agitated. One member even had a conversation with Mrs. Thomas where she complained about, quote, the neglect of her

servant to return home at the proper time and how Kate Webster had flown into a terrible passion when reprimanded. Mrs. Thomas returned home from church early that evening at around 9pm. She ignored Kate, who opened the door for her, and headed straight upstairs and into her room. Kate followed, and the pair got into another argument. Mrs Thomas demanded that Kate leave immediately and take her son with her. Kate totally lost it and began screaming a barrage of insults at her boss, who had had quite enough and left the room. But Kate was not done. And in a fit of rage, Kate grabbed Mrs Thomas by the hair and yanked her back towards her, pulling her close and continuing to scream. Mrs Thomas clawed at Kate's face, screeching at her

to let her go. But Kate, still seeing red, dragged Mrs Thomas by the hair out onto the landing, before throwing the woman down the entire flight of stairs. Mrs. Thomas hit the ground with such force that her skull fractured in three places. Unbelievably, she was still alive though and Mrs. Thomas lay there and began wailing for help. Kate still wasn't done though. She marched down the stairs, grabbed the wounded widow by the throat and pulled her from the ground, pushing her against the wall. Mrs. Thomas tried to fight back, kicking her legs and flailing her arms in a desperate attempt to free herself from Kate's grip, but the maid only squeezed harder, choking the increasingly pale Mrs. Thomas until her body went limp. Kate then threw her to the

ground once more, and with that, Mrs. Thomas was dead. As the red mist cleared, Kate was now faced with the corpse of her former employer, surrounded by a growing pool of blood. She knew she had to do something, and fast. In her mind, she only had one option, and that didn't involve going back to jail. We did say at the beginning that this was a non-eating episode, but just in case you didn't listen the first time, here it is again. Kate was determined to do away with the body. So, taking a straight razor from the bathroom, she began slicing through the flesh on Mrs Thomas' neck.

Using a sawing motion, she eventually managed to fully decapitate her victim's head from the body. And remember the police description of Kate, she was a strong woman and you would have to be to pull this one off. But no matter how strong, even Kate struggled when she tried making her way through the spine. That would be a tough job with just a straight razor. Realising that the razor was an inefficient way of removing appendages, Kate went to the kitchen and picked up a meat saw and a carving knife. She also filled two large copper pots with water and brought them to the boil and you can probably guess where this is going. So now with better tools in hand Kate set

about butchering Mrs Thomas. She removed the woman's hands, feet, arms and legs and finally with only a torso left she stuck the carving knife deep into her victim's stomach, ripping it open to reveal her insides. After, quote, removing all the parts she could find, Kate placed as much of the dismembered body as she could fit into the copper pots, leaving only Mrs. Thomas' head and foot intact. Pretty soon after, neighbours had started to notice an unusual and unpleasant smell coming from the house. But we do have to remember that this is Victorian London.

There's not exactly like grade A plumbing running around. There's actually just sewage probably running in the streets. And so they thought little of it. To the outside world, number two Mayfield cottages seemed perfectly normal. And for the next couple of days, Kate continued to clean the house, do the chores, and even wash Mrs. Thomas' clothes. All, of course, to put on a show of normality. No one would have guessed that behind the scenes, Mrs. Thomas' cooked remains were split between a bag and a large wooden box. Apart from her head and foot, which, as we know, didn't fit in the pans, it has been reported that Kate went around

trying to sell what she called best dripping lard to locals as well as pubs in the area. Hence her nickname, the real-life Sweeney Todd, which is the hook. Unfortunately, from what we can tell, this is nothing more than a folk tale, most likely due to the media circus that would later surround the case. But who knows? Maybe she did sell some of Mrs. Thomas's fat to unsuspecting Londoners.

Stranger things have happened. We eat jelly deals, for God's sake. Did you see a hilarious tweet the other day? There was like some sort of marine biologist saying that there being so much cocaine in London's tap water being like another problem that the eel just doesn't need. Like the eel is just like, oh, I've got my job and my kids and like, oh, and now my wife wants a dog and I don't know how I'm going to pay my tax bill. She's like really depressed eels. And these people keep trying to eat me and put me in jelly and now the water's full of cocaine. Yeah.

So after a few nights had passed, Kate took Mrs. Thomas's decapitated head into the hole in the wall pub, the very same place that had been the cause of the pair's final argument. And here, Kate buried Mrs. Thomas's head in the stables at the back of the pub. Kate then returned home to retrieve the foot, which she took to Twickenham and threw on top of a rubbish heap. And Kate's little body disposal tour of London didn't end there. On the morning of the 4th of March, Kate travelled all the way to Hammersmith, which is fucking miles,

to dispose of the bag containing yet more of Mrs Thomas's remains. And as she did this, as a nice finishing touch, Kate wore Mrs Thomas's silk dress and jewellery, just as a final kick. Yeah, just as the final kick in the dick to Mrs Thomas. And on her way home, Kate decided, you know, I've had a busy day of disposing of various body parts and wearing this silk dress,

I'm going to call in on some old friends of mine. So Kate stopped by at the Porter family home, who she'd been neighbours with when she'd first moved to London. She hadn't actually seen the Porters for six years by this point. And when she turned up, Kate introduced herself to her old friends as Mrs Thomas. She told them since they'd last met, she'd got married, had a child, been widowed, and moved into a house in Richmond left to her by her estranged aunt. Kate then asked Porter Porter, and yes, that was his actual real name apparently, and his son Robert Porter to come back to her house with her, telling them that she needed a favour. She

apparently needed their help to move a heavy box from two Mayfield cottages to the train station. Robert agreed. But while helping her carry the box over Richmond Bridge, Kate suddenly threw her side of the box over the railings, causing it to fall into the Thames. If Robert thought that this was odd, then it doesn't seem that he pressed the issue.

I guess you'd just be like, well, that's weird, but it's your shit, so like, whatever. I've got my own problems to deal with. My pet eels got depressed, my dad's a parrot. Exactly. I'm really confusing the narrative with my stories now, sorry. Yeah, you're throwing everyone off. So he's just like, okay, fine, whatever.

And Robert Porter just goes home. None the wiser to his involvement in the disposal of Mrs. Thomas's body. Kate Webster had got away with murdering, boiling, and disposing of her employer, or so she thought. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part,

Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding and this time if all goes to plan we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul,

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Start your free trial today. The following day, the box washed up on the side of the Thames, where a coal worker discovered it. Horrified by its contents, he reported it to the police. A doctor examined the remains and concluded that it contained the body of a woman, minus the head and the left foot. And then, when a left foot was discovered the very same day, at the rubber sheep in Twickenham, it was clear that it belonged to the body and the left foot. And then when a left foot was discovered the very same day, at the rubber sheep in Twickenham, it was clear that it belonged to the body in the box. But there was nothing else connecting the two, and still no one had found the head.

And with no way of knowing who the body parts belonged to, the unidentified remains were laid to rest at Barnes Cemetery. The newspapers at the time were all over the case, referring to it as the Barnes Mystery, which by Victorian standards, I thought was pretty tame. Could have done better than that. Yeah, I thought it'd be like the fucking rubbish tip dismembered something. I don't know. There's something in there that's better.

The dump dismemberer. Easy. Writes itself. Ugh, exactly. Fuck. That's the one. So while all this was going on, Kate carried on living at No number two Mayfield Cottages, now fully posing as Mrs. Thomas. And she was living the high life, funding her extravagance by selling off her former employer's furniture. And it was only then, when removal vans started rolling in, did the neighbours start to grow suspicious. They hadn't seen Mrs. Thomas in over two weeks, and now all of her

furniture was being carried out. One neighbour actually confronted the removal men asking them who had hired them to which the man responded, Mrs. Webster did, turning and pointing at Kate who was stood in the doorway of the house dressed head to toe in Mrs. Thomas's clothes and covered in her jewellery. I don't know how Kate thought she was going to get away with that, but I think at this point she realised that the jig was up. So she grabbed her son and fled immediately from London to Liverpool on the first available train. And then she got herself a ferry back to Ireland. But Scotland Yard were hot on her trail, tipping off the Royal Irish constabulary of Kate's movements. Important to remember, at this time in history,

Ireland is very much part of the Empire, so they would have been communicating pretty easily. Irish police quickly realised that the woman Scotland Yard was seeking was in fact Catherine Lawler, a woman they had arrested 14 years earlier. Using this information, they managed to trace Kate back to her uncle's farm in Killane, where she was arrested on the 29th of March. And after hearing the crimes his niece had committed, this farmy uncle refused to take custody of little baby John,

meaning that the boy was sent to a workhouse. That's pretty cold. It's not the kid's fault. We don't know what happened to young John Webster after this, but if Oliver is anything to go by, he probably didn't have the best time. Victorian workhouses were not the ideal place to grow up and they're also very difficult to get out of unless you are sold. Kate was arrested and taken to London to stand trial and every step of the police escort from Ireland through to England was met by jeering crowds desperate to catch a glimpse of the Barnes murderess.

Victorian London was absolutely gripped by the murder. Not only was Kate a killer, she was a woman who had killed another woman in a shockingly grisly way. As we've said before on the show, often female criminalities looked through like everything is. A very male gaze. And this one is interesting because there are just absolutely no men involved at all. So people don't really know what to do with her.

Actually, the case was so big, the news spread right across Europe. Even the crown prince of Sweden, the future King Gustav V, travelled to London to sit in court and watch the proceedings. That is a claim to fame. It's like, OK, you think you're famous, but did the king of Sweden literally come and watch you die? No, nobody can ever say that. To be European royalty and just be like, I'm going to go check out that trial that sounds pretty fucking interesting.

See ya. It's not like he could just hop on the fucking Eurostar, like I'm going to get on a ship for weeks because I want to go and have a look at this. Exactly. That is literally what happened. It is crazy. So the trial began at the Old Bailey on the 2nd of July 1879 and during the trial Porter Porter and Robert Porter were acquitted of any wrongdoings as they had solid enough alibis to convince the jury of their innocence. But there would be no such escape for Kate Webster. She remained cold and unmoved throughout the trial which only increased the

jury's distaste towards her as of course it was seen as very unfeminine, but I would also argue that anybody like that, they would say they're not showing any remorse and Kate doesn't help herself at all. A particularly damning piece of evidence also came from a bonnet maker named Maria Durden. She told the court that Kate had visited her a week before the murder, saying that she was going to sell some property, jewellery and a house that her aunt had left her. The jury clearly saw this as premeditation to the murder and so they convicted Kate of murder after deliberating for only an hour. Before sentencing, the judge asked Kate if there was any reason she should not receive the death penalty,

which seems like a weird question for a judge to ask. She's not getting married, but he did anyway. And Kate said that she couldn't possibly receive the death penalty, which seems like a weird question for a judge to ask. She's not getting married, but he did anyway. And Kate said that she couldn't possibly receive the death penalty because she was pregnant. This is a clear attempt to halt the inevitable, but the claim was swiftly disproved by doctors. And so on the 9th of July, Kate Webster was sentenced to death by hanging. 20 days later, she was hanged inside the walls of Wandsworth Prison, dying within seconds of her drop from the gallows. Crowds of people gathered outside, cheering as the black flag was raised to signify her death. And that is it for today's extra special bonus episode, everyone. That was fun. That was different for us. I had a good time. Would you like a fun fact

before we conclude? I would like a fun fact, we conclude i would like a fun fact but i think before we get to the fun fact let's thank now one more time before we get to that i suppose so so yeah we'd like to say a massive thank you to now for partnering with us to bring you this episode again they're currently streaming every single episode of the nevers on now right now and it is fantastic like we said's dark, it's edgy, there's a sprinkle of humour, basically everything you could want from a series and an absolutely banging wardrobe, I have to say.

Yeah, yeah. Love me some costume design when it's done well. And the cast is nothing short of incredible. We've got the likes of Olivia Williams, Happy Valley hottie James Norton, Nick Frost is also in it, and Eleanor Tomlinson all have starring roles. And I'm particularly excited to see Anna Devlin's character, Primrose Chataway, who is a 10-foot-tall extraordinary teen with very unusual forces. You see, it's basically women like Primrose that are going to chuck that mean height average off.

That's why you've got to use the mode. Right. Yeah. Is that why she's your favourite? Because you can envision being a tall person? Yes. Yes. Absolutely. So Primrose Chateau, she teams up with the other outcasts, forming a rebellion on the fringes of Victorian society, fighting for equality. All the hype you've heard about this show is absolutely real. And it goes without saying now literally always smash it out of the park with world-class entertainment and shows. So that's all the more reason to sign up to now and stream every episode of The Nevers. Okay, hit me with your fun fact. So the Hole in the Wall pub, the still standing

in Richmond pub where Kate Webster buried the head of Julia Martha Thomas, was actually purchased by National Treasure, Sir David Attenborough, in 2009. So the head was found in David Attenborough's garden, essentially. Oh my God. Yeah. Apparently during some work on the property, the head was discovered beneath some broken Victorian era tiles. And this girl was sent off and studied because that's what happens when any sort of structural, when I used to work at the theatre, every time they found like a Viking flip-flop, they had to stop construction for about six weeks. And they sent it off to be studied and it had fractures consistent with a head of a person who'd been thrown down the stairs. So there you go.

That's fucking crazy. So David Attenborough bought that pub and found Mrs. Thomas's head. Not him personally, but I'm going to tell that story because that's more fun. Fuck. Isn't the only thing that could make Time Team better that David Attenborough narrates it? Isn't that the only thing that could improve Time Team? I love that in 2009, Sir David Attenborough was just buying pubs in London. Ian McKellen owns one in Limehouse called The Grapes or something like that. That's a nice pub.

That's nice. There you go. Some fun facts. Kind of fun facts. I mean, it is very morbid still, but interesting all the same. So that is it, guys. That is the end

of this extra special bonus episode. Go check out The Nevers on now. We'll be back, like, later this week with another fucking banging episode. And then again every week after that. For the rest of our natural lives. Goodbye. Goodbye.

Bye. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either, until I came face-to-face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness.

And inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudian Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On the Media.

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