RedHanded - Episode 101 - Joanna Dennehy: Spree Killer

Episode Date: July 4, 2019

In this week's episode the girls are off to the ditches of Peterborough to cover the case of spree killer Joanna Dennehy, only the third woman in Britain to ever receive a whole of life sentence. Joanna was just 30 years old when she went on a 14 day killing spree that left 3 men dead, dumped in the ditches in rural Cambridgeshire. They were found covered in stab wounds consistent with a frenzied attack, and placed in humiliating poses - what led such a young woman to kill with such rage? BUY TOUR TICKETS HERE: https://www.gigsandtours.com/tour/redhanded   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Saruti.

I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed. Today, we're taking you to rather an exotic location, I thought. Because we're off to the ditches of Peterborough. Whoa! Book your holidays. No shade to Peterborough. Don't at me.

I was going to say, they're going to fucking come for you. I'm just saying. I like Peterborough. But yeah, we're off to the ditches of Peterborough to cover the case of a violent spree killer who killed three men and left two with near-fatal injuries over the course of just 14 days in 2013. The three murdered men were found on the rural fens of Cambridgeshire farmland in drainage ditches and the MO was very specific. They all had multiple stab wounds, their bodies had been

dumped like rubbish and placed in humiliating poses. And the real kicker in this case? The killer was a young 30-year-old woman named Joanna Dennehy. So let's get into it. In 2013, a 53-year-old man named Kevin Lee was living in Peterborough working as a letting agent for a business called Quick Letts. He specialised in getting accommodation for homeless and vulnerable people. Mainly he worked on a densely populated estate. Basically it used to be like a big council estate but now the homes were mainly privately owned and the vibe as you can imagine was very much one of minimal vetting. And after being released from prison, having served a 14-week sentence for theft, 30-year-old Joanna Dennehy rocked up to Kwiklets and met Kevin Lee for the first time.

Even though Joanna had only served 14 weeks in prison, she told Kevin that she had just got out having served eight years for killing her father because he'd raped her and burning two people in a house fire and having hit two people with her car. In what universe are you getting eight years for those things? It's very strange, like the lie she tells. Firstly, such a specific and weird list of things to have done

and also a very odd number of to say eight years maybe because she's still very young she's only 30 so she guess she has to make it somewhat believable of when she could have committed those crimes but still very strange okay okay so so she's 30 and she's saying she's done eight years. Yeah. She still would have been 22. That's not a minor. No, no, no. So I don't think she has the best grasp on the criminal justice system. But I guess if she's like, oh, I just, I served 20 years,

she would have had to do it when she was 10. So. But I believe that more. Narrow down the list of crimes so that the eight years make sense, Joanna. Yeah, exactly. So she's a liar. Probably a pretty bad one. The more interesting question is, why is she lying?

Is it to make her seem worse than she is? Like more badass, I suppose. And I think we'll see. I think a big characteristic trait that you can pin on Joanna is that she likes to scare people. So she probably thinks telling people that she's killed her dad because he raped her and she's done all of these awful things before she's even 30. And not only did she do them, she convinced them to only give her eight years for it. That's going to inspire some fear in the people if they believe her, which it looks like some of them do. Also, I suppose having been in prison, it's a pretty useful intimidation strategy.

But maybe there was no real reason. Joanna would later be diagnosed as a pathological liar with psychopathic tendencies. So she just can't help but lie. And if she was telling Kevin this to scare him, it didn't scare him off that far because him and Joanna started a sexual relationship. Now, Joanna Dennehy's sexual preferences disturbed many of her partners throughout her life, both men and women, but I think for some it added a bit of allure. After her eventual arrest she was diagnosed as having paraphilia sadomasochism, which is deriving sexual pleasure from both giving and receiving pain and humiliation. We've come across

this before, we've come across this many times before. I think the key thing with this case is we see a lot of stuff we've seen before. But in a very young woman, I think that's the thing that stands out a lot to me anyway. Oh, yeah, definitely. Like having such violent sexual tendencies. And it's not fantasy. Like she's physically hurting these people. It's so advanced.

Is something you are quite i don't know if you should even say that you're shocked to see it in a woman that young but maybe i suppose i am really i am i haven't really come across this to this extent with someone like joanna but the thing is joanna never hid her tendencies either she was diagnosed with this sure after her arrest but it was a well-known secret. She apparently even often would walk around the estate wearing handcuffs attached to her trousers and very, very openly talk about her sexual proclivities. She was also obsessed with violent pornography and was a habitual self-harmer, cutting herself all over, sometimes even during sex. And Kevin Lee, it seems, was fully aware of Dennehy's sexual interests.

And it seems that he was one of those men who most definitely found it alluring in Joanna. Now, spoiler, Kevin doesn't survive long after he meets Joanna, but we'll get to his murder in a second. What is horrifying, though, is that before he died, Kevin Lee had told a friend of his that Joanna had wanted to quote, dress me up and rape me. And I wondered at this point during the research, if hybristophilia applies to men as it does to women. And we've talked about hybristophilia before on this podcast, that sort of sexual attraction that some people have towards a dangerous person. I think over lunch today, Hannah looked up the actual definition of what hybristophilia was, because we were talking about whether is it specific to women or does it apply to men as

well? Because when you Google it and you look up examples, it almost always, always refers to women. Yeah. So I was just interested in maybe the root of the word being female only but it isn't it's from like hubris but I think it doesn't seem that there's any like specific female related definition in the etymology of the word however every example you see is women on men if that makes sense it was interesting when you were looking it up and it was like what was it was? It was derived from like the Greek. The Greek god of insolence. Which I love. I love it. There's a Greek god for insolence. I love it. I think it's Hybris. I think that's his name. Essentially, it was like someone who loves someone who commits atrocities against others. That's in the most literal sense what it seems to translate into. So no gender specific sort of route to the word, but in its

usage absolutely seems to be more geared towards women who fall in love with violent men. But in this case, it is all about these men, particularly Kevin Lee, who quote unquote, fall in love with this woman, Joanna Dennehy, who we will go on to see is incredibly violent and aggressive and dangerous. What I was interested as well was people with this kind of, like if we can call it a thought process. I don't really know how to distinguish hyperstrophilia. Is it a condition? Is it just a way of thinking?

I don't know. I think it's a condition. Maybe. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. Is it a sexual orientation? I don't know. What do we call it?

I don't know. Oh, that's tricky. I don't know. What do we call it? I don't know. Oh, that's tricky. I don't know. Because I suppose if you're going down the route of you can't choose what you're attracted to, which I tend to do, then if you can't choose it, is that, does that make it? I don't think. I don't know. But I guess, would you argue that a sexual orientation is one that you're born with?

And this is something you develop? Is it always? Who knows? I don't know. That's for sure. Some people probably do know. So I won't? Who knows? I don't know. That's for sure. Some people probably do know. So I won't say who knows. I don't know. But the thing is, the point of what I'm trying to get at is, does hybristophilia in men manifest itself in the same way as it does in

women? Because if we ask ourselves why women may have hybristophilia, and this is just my opinion on it, it just seems like it's like a warped sense for that woman to have some feeling of weird safety. Is it by being with the most dangerous man that she can find? Now he'll surely protect her against everyone else. I also think there's an element to like women who fall in love with prisoners or write to them like they're in prison.

They're not going anywhere. It's a very safe and distant relationship where he's not out in the wild she's more in control of it it's complicated but the key question we're asking here is what about men what makes men attracted to violent aggressive women like joanna dennehy it's so interesting and like i don't i don't know i think it's about the sex do you think i do most things are aren't they really when you get down to it, sex or money. And I tried to really look into this with the whole, tried to go down a rabbit hole into why men, some men are attracted to aggressive, violent women.

And the closest I could find was articles talking about why men love, quote unquote, crazy women. And by crazy, they're defining it as women with tempers, women who are irrational, women who flip out over things, for example. And it was a New Yorker article actually that I was reading and it was talking, essentially the crux of the article came down to the point that behind all the crazy, these men think it's a price worth paying because they think the sex will be great. And I don't know, I'm just saying this was the closest I could sort of come to thinking about it. And Joanna's relationship with Lee I'm just saying this was the closest I could sort of come to thinking about it. And Joanna's relationship with Lee and with all the other men in her life is very sexual.

So aside from the sexual side, or perhaps because of it, Kevin also casually employed Joanna and her mate Gary Stretch Richards. And Gary's nickname was Stretch because he was seven foot three. That's outrageous. The biggest person I've ever seen in my life was six foot ten and that was crazy too much. It's not too much I'm sorry you're gorgeous all of you wonderful tall people. I'm five foot eight and a half I'm quite tall. But I'm five foot two and a half and my ex was six foot eight. Yeah see I don't like that you take the short men there's nothing wrong with short men but I have got to balance it out if I ever have

kids I want them to be regular heighted children also what I thought was really interesting with the Gary Stretch Richards thing was in all the documentaries they just call him Gary Stretch and I thought that was his actual surname it's's not. Oh, poor Gary. I know. Seven foot three, though. Fucking hell. I think it must be quite annoying being that tall. You must get people commenting on it all the time. That's very tall.

Like, so tall. But yeah, you get it. He's super tall. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, we've done that one to death. Right. Kevin gave Gary Stretch and Joanna Freeboard for acting essentially as his bulldogs. The scary Joanna and the giant Gary would help Kevin with his more troublesome clients. And this was a great deal for Joanna.

She got to play the psycho bailiff, which she loved. And she also got to keep her housing benefit money all to herself. Kevin even got Joanna a car. Here's my thing. even got Joanna a car. Here's my thing. He buys her a car. I cannot imagine for a second her sitting through a driving lesson. That's a good point. She actually never drives the car.

It's always Gary Stretch that you read about driving it. So I think he buys her the car, but Gary Stretch drives it for her. I see. That's a good point, though. Driving lessons are difficult and you have to follow instructions. That doesn't really sound like her bag. That's a good point though. Driving lessons are difficult and you have to follow instructions. That doesn't really sound like her bag. That's a really good point. I hadn't thought about that. But yeah, in everything you ever come across in this case, Gary's always the one driving. So even though Kevin had bought her a car, Joanna just wasn't

as into it as Kevin was. And she was about to lose it with her golden goose. On the 29th of March 2013, Kevin was meant to meet with Joanna at her house. But when after their arranged meeting he didn't come home, his wife Christina became worried. She called him and called him and called him, but nothing. Then, when he still hadn't returned home the next day, she reported him missing to the police. And when the call came in, it was after all for a grown man who had only been missing for a night. So I don't think it would have been initially treated as the highest priority, but it soon would be. The day Kevin was reported missing, the police found a burnt out car on a farm track in Yaxley. And it was Kevin's car. Kevin's safety immediately became a major

concern, but it was too late as the very next day they found Kevin's body. He was found in a ditch by the A16 near Newborough and Martin Bruning, who was the senior investigating officer on call for major crime for the area over Easter in 2013, recalls how shocked the team were when they discovered Kevin's body. He was laying in a drainage ditch, dressed in a black sequined dress that had been pulled up above the waist. He was found on his front, so with the dress pulled up the way it was, his bare backside was completely exposed. And there's no way that this was an accident. It's all about humiliation. The dress he was wearing was also covered in holes, stab holes, so he wasn't dressed

after he was killed. Kevin had been wearing the dress when he had been murdered. The police at this point thought that this was all part of some sort of sex game, but whatever had been going on, it was clear that Kevin had died from five stab wounds to the chest, and it was obvious that this wasn't misadventure or an accident. And like we said at the start, this ditch was in a very remote area of the Cambridgeshire Fens. It's all just like farmland around there. So the police basically had nothing to go on. No witnesses, no CCTV, nothing.

So to try and get any leads, the police had to dig into Kevin's life. And given how he was dressed, the police wondered if maybe Kevin had a secret. So they dug into his phone records. And interestingly enough, it was actually Christina, Kevin's wife, who would be the key to cracking the case open. So remember the night when Kevin went missing and Christina, his wife, spent the whole night frantically calling him repeatedly. Well, the police had gone through Kevin's phone records and found a number that Kevin called all the time. And this phone was in the same spot as Kevin had been the night he went

missing and died. The mobile phone that he had been calling belonged to Joanna Dennehy. And with that, she quickly jumped to the top of the suspect list. And the police went looking for her. But she was, of course, missing. At her house, though, they found a bloodstained mattress in the back garden. Guys, anything, the only thing I can think of that's worse than that in your garden is a sex caravan. Oh, my God. Imagine a sex caravan with a blood-soaked mattress in it. Oh. I'm sure quite a few of them do. Oh mate, don't. It's just something about dirty mattresses,

and especially ones covered in blood. It's just in our garden. It's so, so gross. But the thing is, the blood wasn't Kevin's. But whoever's it was couldn't have been in a good way. And when the police got a report of another missing man, a Royal Navy veteran called John Chapman, who was another one of Kwiklet's clients,

they were on high alert, to say the least. So the police went to the media. And I suppose this early on into an investigation, this is quite a rare move. But the thing is, they had a seven-foot giant on the loose with a woman with a tattoo of a star on her face. Because, yeah, haven't mentioned that bit yet, but Joanna Dennehy has a carved wonky star

into her right cheek just below her eye, which apparently she did to herself. And almost immediately, given, I would say, the pretty extra appearance of the two main suspects, the police appeal got the Peterborough Police a lead. And it came from another police officer in Norfolk. appearance of the two main suspects, the police appeal got the Peterborough police a lead and it came from another police officer in Norfolk. Now Norfolk again is a very beautiful part of England and it's about 60 miles from Peterborough and it's on the east coast of the country and it is

beautiful but I would say, you know, to give you a bit of British flavour, the inhabitants of Norfolk are often I find tarred with an unfortunate reputation of being incestuous inbreds and I'm not saying that we're not saying that red-handed are not saying that it's just UK stereotypes right yeah there's like a saying that's like NFN which means normal for Norfolk so like if someone's got like a sixth finger you'd be like oh well NFN and I heard that off a GP who used to work in norfolk so make of that what you were oh wow but it is beautiful it's very flat very good for bike holidays and caravanning well evidently now they had come to the attention of the norfolk police not only because of you know the description

of being a seven foot giant and a terrifying woman with a star in her face but it was also because they had rather stupidly drawn a whole lot of attention to themselves after they had driven off from a petrol station after stealing biscuits and petrol. So now the police have the license plate of the car that the pair are in. Because if there is anywhere there are CCTV cameras, it is a petrol station on a motorway. And they have your license plate. And now they've given your license plate to the police. And so now the police are able to use automatic number plate recognition to scan the motorways of the UK. And pretty quickly, they can see the car moving down the M5 to the southwest.

During this time on the run, Joanna and Gary drew a lot of attention to themselves. They even stole a camera. And they do the weirdest thing. They use this stolen camera to take bizarrely touristy pictures of themselves. It's kind of like they know they're totally fucked and they will be going to jail for a long time. So why not have a bit of a laugh before getting caught? After a couple of days on the run, they headed to Kington in Herefordshire to try and sell some of the stuff that they had stolen.

To offload their stolen wares, they went to meet a man named Mark Lloyd. He was a petty thief and he knew Gary Stretch from jail. When they got to Mark's house and started negotiations, Joanna spotted all of the piles and piles of stolen stuff, like phones and other electronics that Mark Lloyd had in his house. And she pulled a knife on him. I think it's pretty safe to say that Joanna is very impulsive. She sees this stuff

and she's like, I want that. I'm going to take it. So she took this knife and started threatening Mark Lloyd, telling him, quote, I've killed three people already and I'm looking to kill some more. Mark Lloyd said that he was absolutely terrified of Joanna. He said that it was weird to watch her and Gary stretch because to him, it was as if she was in complete control over this man who in Mark Lloyd's words could have quote snapped her in half. And if you do go and read anything about this case the idea of men being under Joanna's spell is a narrative that everyone is absolutely obsessed with. Now I do think that Joanna was the ringleader. I'm not querying that. And I do think that Gary Stretch was the follower. But I think Joanna was just super manipulative. She knew how to control

different men. With a man like Kevin Lee, it was with sex. Gary, I think, you know, he's just not, I just don't think he's that bright. And I think he was probably just looking for somewhere and someone to belong to and with. So I definitely think there's a theme that we see with Joanna. But one thing I did find weird is in this case is that people go on in the documentaries calling her like striking and attractive. And I don't want to slay other women by their appearance. But like, seriously, we'll post a picture and you can decide she's a woman who's been taking hardcore drugs and a lot of alcohol abuse since she's like 13 she's not looking great and she's carved a massive star into her face like i mean

i would never ever say this to her face because i'm absolutely terrified of her but attractive she's not i would definitely wouldn't say that uh i wouldn't put her in the conventionally attractive box no and i think that that's what is weird about the case because it's almost like they're saying the only way that this woman could have been in control of all these men is had she been super attractive. So let's call her attractive and striking. She isn't.

She's just incredibly manipulative. And like I said, she knows what to do with different types of men in order to control them. And with Mark Lloyd, as we go on to see, it's all about fear. them. And with Mark Lloyd, as we go on to see, it's all about fear. And I think with Mark Lloyd, she realized that nothing short of fear for his life was going to make Mark Lloyd do what she wanted. And what she wanted was to get Mark Lloyd to go with them.

I don't really know why they do this. I don't really know why they take Mark Lloyd with them on this next bit of their like excursion. But yeah, she tells Mark Lloyd, I'm guessing with a knife and with numerous threats of violence, to get in the car with them and drive them to Hereford to sell the stuff that they had just stolen off him. So not only do they take his shit, they also kidnap him. I think she just loves the risk. Another pair of eyes is a higher risk. It's another witness. Yeah. And if she can get away with that, she's the king. That's true. And it also ups the stakes for her. And she is the kind of person we'll go on to talk about. I think has a very low boredom threshold. So I think it ups the stakes for her. Another

person in the mix who she's now controlling with violence. So get in the car. And when they get in the car, Joanna rapidly started to devolve. She had a bottle of whiskey and according to Mark Lloyd, she just started necking it. And she was also taking sort of fun pictures and forcing the men to pose for her. Mark said that Joanna then made him drink the whiskey too while she screamed with laughter. She's having the best day of her life. And the drive from Kington to Hereford took 45 minutes. And I can only imagine what a terrifying 45 minutes it would have been for Mark. And at one

point, she even forced him into a shop and made him buy her cigarettes with a knife pushed up against his back. But then when they were back in the car, she started talking about finding a member of the public to kill. She told Gary, you've had your fun and now it's my turn. I'm interested to know which bit of it was fun for Gary. Maybe he just really likes driving. I think he likes driving and I think he likes Joanna and I think he likes the attention that she gives him. Because I think it's probably more attention than he's ever had from another woman before. And then Joanna started demanding that Gary find her someone to kill. But according to Mark,

who was still in the car with them, Joanna said, quote, no women, no children find me a man to kill. At which point Gary pointed at a man on the street and said, will he do? The man Gary was pointing at was retired firefighter Robin Barraza. Robin was just a totally normal, random person and an innocent man walking home with his dog. All it took was Gary to point him out. Joanna got out of the car and walked over to him. And just like that, she attacked him just yards from his own house. She attacked Robin from behind in a frenzied knife attack. And I can't stress how super public an attack this was. It's just a nice, normal, pleasant, quiet town.

It's like fucking suburbia. And also, this is about just after 3pm. So school was just ending. The streets would have been so busy with kids and parents. But Joanna, I don't think is thinking. She just went for it, stabbing Robin multiple times in his back. And when she was done, she left Robin lying there on the pavement, bleeding from the serious injuries that she had just inflicted.

And casually, Joanna just got back in the car, kissed Gary, and they drove off. Mark Lloyd, who maybe until this point could have thought that they were just all talk, said he couldn't believe what he had just seen. And imagine the panic. could have thought that they were just all talk, said he couldn't believe what he had just seen. And imagine the panic. You're trapped in a car with this woman who is completely unhinged. She's smashed and wielding a massive knife and she clearly has no issues whatsoever using that knife. So Mark sat in the back of the car and watched in horror as Joanna and Gary started to look for their next victim. And that's when they spotted 56-year-old John Rogers. John was again just a totally normal guy walking his dog down the street.

He lived in Hereford and like Barraza, he too was not far from his house when he was attacked. This time the entire attack was caught on CCTV. Joanna gets out of the car and casually walks over to John as he's walking. And Joanna is a slight and small woman, so she doesn't immediately present a physical threat. And she also softens herself further by talking about John's dog. And anyone with a dog, you know when someone approaches at you telling you how great your dog is, you're sort of immediately disarmed. I certainly am. So that's how Joanna was able to get close enough to John. And at this point, he doesn't really look worried. But then she started stabbing him again in an

extremely frenzied attack. Soon, John was laying face down on the ground. And unbelievably, Joanna bent down, turned him over and carried on stabbing him in the front. It's so personal to her, isn't it? Like she needs to look at his face while she's stabbing him in the front. It's so personal to her, isn't it? Like, she needs to look at his face while she's stabbing him in the chest. And stabbing's pretty sexual, too. And it's the frenzied nature of it. Absolutely. And if you Google Joanna Dennehy, one of the first pictures that comes up is her with this big, like, curly knife.

You've just got to Google it to sort of get a vibe of who this woman is. So John Rogers was stabbed over 30 times by Joanna in the back, in the chest and his abdomen. And after she was done, Joanna just left John lying in a pool of his own blood and calmly walked away back to the car where Gary Stretch was waiting. And this is the thing, after none of these attacks, and you can see it in the CCTV, she doesn't run away. She doesn't flee the crime scene. She just casually walks away. Doesn't even turn around to look at him. Just walks off, gets back in the car.

Like she's just posted some letters or something. Now Mark Lloyd said that as Joanna got back into the car, she said, quote, that was nice. I need to do some more. Mark said that he looked out of the window as they drove away and watched as a bleeding John Rogers tried to crawl away. He said that Joanna Dennehy didn't even look back at the man she had just stabbed.

And that's the thing with her. It's so quickly, like, over for her. She's like, I'm done. She doesn't even look back at him, even to, like, seek some sick pleasure in watching this man bleed to death. She just doesn't give a shit. She's like, whatever. Next. Exactly. Now the alarm

was raised quickly following these attacks. As we said, it was peak foot traffic time. Both men were found by members of the public and airlifted to hospital. And luckily both Robin and John survived. Mark Lloyd says that at this point he could hear sirens everywhere and he started to panic. He now

absolutely knew what these two people were capable of. And he knew that they knew that the net was closing in. He was not only a dead weight, but also a witness. He was convinced that they were going to kill him. But if that was what Joanna had planned for Mark, she wouldn't get the chance. Because the group stopped at a row of shops near where they had attacked John Rogers, and here the police pounced. Oddly though, I thought, the police described Joanna as being very calm. You might have thought that she'd go out with a big bang and cause a huge scene and scream and kick and generally be a bit wild, but that's not what happened. She just surrendered and went quietly.

The police were baffled by this as well. Joanna's crimes were so violent, but when they took her into the station to be arrested she was just joking and laughing around with the staff. There's video footage of all of this that you can watch and she is just really chill. Not at all like someone who had just been arrested on one count of murder and two counts of attempted murder. You can see her jumping around and joking and laughing and even flirting constantly with the staff at the police station as they're going through the process of arresting her and you can tell that she just loves to be the center of attention and morally there's nothing there for joanna she's so callous and it makes sense now because after the arrest she was diagnosed with having psychopathic tendencies here's my theory

on joanna dennehy do it i think she wanted to go back to jail. Interesting. Because she wants to go back to jail. It's full of people you can manipulate forever. There's nowhere they can go. And being on the outside is hard. She hasn't had a good time on the outside. She's been homeless heaps, blah, blah, blah. We'll get into that. So I think she's like, I want to go back to prison

and I want to make it impossible for them to put me on the outside again. That is such a good point. I hadn't thought about that. You're right. Because why else does she behave so like, I don't give a fuck. She wants to be caught. She wants to go to prison.

You're so right. That is probably what it is. I don't think she's having a great time outside of prison. I don't think freedom is all it's cracked up to be for someone like Joanna Dennehy. Because yeah, when you watch the video footage of her at the CCTV, like when she's being arrested there's no exaggeration she's like touching these police officers she's like

running her fingers through her hair she's so like coming on so strong to everyone looks freaked out by what how she's behaving and the only thing I can think is because either she's pretending she doesn't care or she genuinely doesn't care and maybe she does, but she cares because she wants to go back to prison. And I think she clearly sees herself as this sort of master manipulator. So she's just like, I'm going to play everyone to get what I want. Exactly. Maybe that's why she brings Mark in the car. So she's got a witness who's not her ally.

That's a very good point, Hannah. You are, you're on it today. I'm on fire. You are on fire today. That's good. I hadn't thought about that. Well, there you go, guys. We can just stop here.

Case closed. But what I also thought was interesting is that, as Hannah said, she was diagnosed after her arrest with like psychopathic tendencies. But I thought it was interesting in the years before her arrest, when she was in and out of jail, Joanna had received some treatment for her mental health problems. And in fact, in February 2012, just over a year before the murders, Dennehy had spent a few days in Peterborough City Hospital

where she was diagnosed as having an antisocial personality disorder and obsessive compulsive disorder. Now, we will come back to Joanna's upbringing and her various diagnoses in a bit. So put a pin in it for now because we have some interesting thoughts on this. So finally, after two weeks of mayhem that

stretched from Peterborough to Hereford, Joanna Dennehy was arrested on the 2nd of April 2013. Now when she was arrested Joanna's parents were called and this was the first time they had even known where Joanna was for 10 years and they were allowed to watch the CCTV of Joanna's arrest and they were shocked saying that it was nothing like the girl that they had known and loved. Also in the CCTV, apart from just like her being very like sexually explicit and casual and the parents would have been told what she'd have been arrested for. She also makes like really vulgar racist jokes and all sorts of things like that, that I just didn't want to even repeat.

But yeah, she's a scumbag. She's horrible. And she's going for the shock factor. Everything she does, her appearance, like I wonder whether that star on her face is her only tattoo. I think that would be very interesting. That would be very interesting.

And you're right, it's totally about shock because when she makes these jokes, the other police officers are like, what did you just say? And she just says it again. She's doing it on purpose, very much so. So get this, the Ontario Liberals elected Bonnie Crombie as their new leader. Bonnie who? I just sent you a profile. it again. She's doing it on purpose, very much so. So, get this. The Ontario Liberals elected

Bonnie Crombie as their new leader. Bonnie who? I just sent you a profile. Her first act as leader, asking donors for a million bucks for her salary. That's excessive. She's a big carbon tax supporter. Oh yeah. Check out her record as mayor. Oh, get out of here. She even increased taxes in this economy. Yeah, higher taxes, carbon taxes. She sounds expensive. Bonnie Crombie and the Ontario Liberals. They just don't get it. That'll cost you. A message from the Ontario PC Party. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to light some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration

with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery+. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial today. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life.

I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music or wherever you find your favourite podcasts. So although at this point Joanna had been arrested, the Hereford police only actually knew about Lee and the two men, Robin and John. Those are the men that she'd attacked in the

street. But the thing is, there was more. Way more. The day Joanna was arrested, the police got a call about a body that had been found in a ditch in Thorny Dyke, no jokes about that name please, which is a village in northeast Peterborough. They were almost immediately sure that this would be the body of John Chapman, the other man who had gone missing from Kwiklets. There had been a lot of concern about John's welfare. He'd been missing for five days by this point and giving his connection to Kevin Lee and Joanna Dennehy. The outlook didn't seem too good.

But if the police thought that that was it, if they thought it was over, they would very soon be proven wrong. Because within hours, the police got another call. There were two bodies in the ditch. And the first body, as they had suspected, was indeed that of missing man John Chapman. John was described as just like a normal guy. He was a drinker, but he didn't do anyone any harm. I think reading about John Chapman, I think he was just a bit hopeless and vulnerable.

And remember the bloody mattress that the police had found in Joanna's back garden, the one that hadn't been a match to Kevin Lee's blood? Well, it was John Chapman's blood. It appeared that he had been killed in his bedroom, probably while drunk, maybe even passed out, as there didn't seem to be much of a struggle. And his injuries consisted of multiple closely confined stab wounds to his chest. Sound familiar? So yeah, again, they've got her. Like, who else could it be? They found the mattress in her garden covered in John Chapman's blood. He's again linked to Joanna because of where he lived. And he's found in another ditch. Ding, ding, ding.

And I think at this point the police are like, how many more fucking victims has she got? Because it seems completely crazy. And they're all found so closely together. She's clearly doing this in one go. The second body in the ditch that the police had found was identified as that of 31-year-old Lukasz Slabodowski. Lukasz was a Polish national living in Peterborough.

And sadly, he had a pretty chaotic life. The evidence suggested that he was a regular drug user, who largely slept rough. And this is probably, again, how he met Joanna Dennehy. On the 19th of March 2013 CCTV caught Lucas's final movements. He took out cash not far from Joanna's house and then went to meet her at her place. It was clearly an arranged meeting. It speculated that they were meeting either for paid sex, free sex or drugs and whatever was going on Lucas was attacked in

Joanna's house at Rolleston Garth, and when the police searched the house, forensics showed that Lucas was probably attacked in the bathroom of the property. But there was also blood in the living room, which shows that the attack had been a long and sustained one. The depth and the nature of the wounds fitted Joanna's MO perfectly. Lucas, too, had died in a violent and frenzied stab attack. And although he was the last victim to be found, Lucas was Joanna's first kill. She had killed him 10 days before John Chapman and Kevin Lee. So now the

police could link Joanna to three murders and two attempted murders. And if all this wasn't shocking and horrifying enough, there was another disturbing twist to the story. Joanna had clearly made no secret of what she'd done. She had told people on the estate that she had killed and on one occasion she had even taken a young girl who was just 14 years old to a wheelie bin to quote show her something. And yes you guessed it. This was where she had been keeping Lucas's body

before she disposed of him in the ditch. I find it weird with Joanna like coming back to the whole idea of her being like no women, no children, only men and now she's taking this 14 yearyear-old girl out, who we will come to discuss is the exact same age she is when she leaves home and she never goes back. She takes this girl out and shows her the body. What point is she trying to prove? She's trying to get to prison. No. At trial, the evidence against Joanna was incredibly compelling. On the 18th of November 2013, she had a pre-trial at the Old Bailey

and she was charged with two counts of attempted and three counts of actual murder. I think everyone expected a long drawn-out trial. They said it was a shock when after 10 minutes, Joanna stood up and pleaded guilty. And I was going to say that I was surprised by this because to me she always behaved like someone who wanted the attention and wanted the notoriety I thought why plead guilty and I thought maybe it was to maintain control or I thought maybe she just acted impulsively and just said it but if we go with Hannah's theory then it's because she just wanted to go to prison obviously I think my theory is fantastic but on the other hand you could say that she she wants to do the thing that nobody's

expecting her to do like she wants, like she loves to shock. And she loves people being interested in her, I think. So that's why she always goes to the extreme in her behaviour and nobody was expecting her to do that. It could be probably both. Interesting. And on the 28th of February 2014, Joanna returned to the Old Bailey for sentencing and Judge Justice Spencer handed down a whole of life prison sentence. Joanna Dennehy

is only the third woman in the UK to have ever been sentenced to a whole of life sentence. And the other two keeping her company in this very exclusive club are our old pals Myra and Rose. And the interesting thing to remember here is that Myra is what in the 60s? I think she's dead. I think she died of pneumonia. No, I mean, when she's arrested and sentenced, it's like the Moores murders are like the 60s or something. Yes, sorry. Yes, yeah, yeah. 60s, 70s. And Rose and Fred are like the 80s, early 90s. This is 2014. This is like five years ago.

So there's a big old gap. So when sentencing, the judge told Joanna that she was a cruel, calculating and committed serial killer. And the whole time, Joanna just laughed. And I think the laughter coupled with her general demeanour makes people think she's erratic. But I'm not sure she's erratic. I think she's calculated. I think she knows what she's doing. She's just trying to freak people out. So here's the other thing that's a sort of a hot topic with this case is whether Joanna Dennehy was a serial killer or whether she was a spree killer. And although the judge calls her a serial killer, I think she's technically a spree

killer because she didn't really have real sort of cooling off periods between her kills. 10 days is quite long. I think originally, but she starts to devolve quite quickly. And in those final days, she's just in that final day, she's just going, going, going. And I think if you go back to the actual definitions of it, though, it's not so much about the actual cooling off period. But I thought this was interesting. It seems to be more about does the killer revert to a normal life? Do they disengage from the process of killing, revert back to a totally normal life between the kills? So it's not so much the time that

elapses between the kills, which it is important, but it's not totally that. It's about do they go back to a quote unquote normal life? But with Joanna, I don't ever really feel a sense of her disengaging. She constantly seems to be in the moment of killing, given the opportunity. And if we do look at the definitions of it, a serial killer is someone who has killed three or more victims at different places at different times. And if it's at the same time, they're a mass killer. So that's the difference between that and a serial. And as we said, a serial killer, these kills are usually punctuated by calling off periods where they step back, call off, reflect, revert back to their normal lives, disengage and maybe plan their next move.

And a spree killer, like what we're suggesting Joanna is, is a killer with multiple victims, but one who is moving at a pace so rapid, they don't really allow much time to elapse between their kills or they don't fully disengage from the act of killing. Which is why I think you can probably put Richard Chase in the spree killer box rather than the serial killer box. Because he's constantly absorbed with the idea of killing and he doesn't lead any other kind of life. He never disengages from it. So yeah, I think she's a spree killer. Some people call her an emerging serial killer. I don't know. It doesn't matter too much. But I do always think it's interesting to talk about the definitions of these kind of people.

I don't think she would have stopped. No, she wouldn't have stopped. So Joanna's partner in crime, Gary Stretch Richards, was found guilty on three counts of preventing the lawful burial of a body and two counts of attempted murder. He was sentenced to life with a minimum term of 19 years to serve. If anyone thinks that's harsh because he didn't actually do any killing, he's serving life because he enabled the attack of John Rogers after he saw what Joanna did to Robin Baratza. Mark Lloyd, our poor traumatised petty thief who was essentially kidnapped by Dennehy, was found to have no case to answer. And I feel for Mark Lloyd. Yes, he was a thief, and yes, he was fencing stuff, but he was clean for the first time since 1979, and he was on the verge of lawful employment for what I think was the first time in his life.

And Joanna Dennehy ruined his life all over again. And as for Joanna, her family don't speak to her. They think she's better off in prison and they hope that she's never released. And speaking about Joanna's family, I think this is a good point to talk about her background because it is an interesting one. But it's one that I actually think throws up more questions about her and who she would go on to become than really answers anything. Joanna was brought up in Harpenden in Hertfordshire. It's like just a 30 minute drive from where I grew up. Again, it's a really pretty quaint part of the country. And growing up, Joanna was a totally normal child. She got good grades, she had lots of friends and her teachers loved her.

She was described, if anything, as being oversensitive. Teachers remember her crying over things like if she accidentally stepped on a worm. But when she hit her teens, her family and friends spotted a change in her personality. At 13, she started to play truant. She started drinking. She started becoming violent. And she started getting in trouble with the police. And at 14, Joanna started a relationship with a 20-year-old man named John Traynor. Joanna's parents begged her to finish school. They even tried to compromise

by trying to accept her relationship, telling her to bring John over for dinner. They thought it was all just a phase and that Joanna would grow out of it. They felt totally helpless when Joanna ran off at 14, but they still thought, she's just rebelling, she'll come back. But Joanna never came back. Her mum even says now about Joanna, quote, she doesn't exist to me anymore, she's not my daughter. My Jo left at 14 and never came home.

After she left home, Joanna spiralled into crime. She became heavily involved in drugs and was basically constantly in trouble for carrying knives and assault. It was after a 14-week sentence for theft that she ended up at quicklets meeting Kevin Lee and Lucas, her first murder victims. And it's a weird one because I feel like in some ways Joanna Dennehy comes across a bit like Eileen Wuornos. But unlike Eileen, Joanna doesn't seem to have had a troubled childhood. I mean, anyone who knows Eileen Wuornos' story, she's like, her childhood is fucking brutal. But Joanna, I watched multiple interviews with her parents.

Their pain comes across as real. I don't think they were abusive or even indifferent to Joanna. And, I don't know, of course, we've talked about this before on this show. A genetic predisposition, an abusive home, and then a trigger. It's all the perfect storm. Anna. And I don't know, of course, we've talked about this before on this show, a genetic predisposition, an abusive home, and then a trigger. It's all the perfect storm. But we don't always need to see all of these things to make a killer. Sometimes just one will do. I don't know what happened here. Like, it's really complicated. I feel like she comes across as like someone who suffered abuse and had a genetic predisposition for violence.

Yeah, it feels like something clicks when she's 14. Something changes. I don't know what it is. And I don't think we'll ever know because Joanna claims that she was sexually abused. But she never gives detail. She doesn't specify who did it, what happened to her. And her sister Maria, who she seems very close to and very close in age, they shared a room. You know, they spent all their time together. She says nothing like that ever happened. But again, that doesn't mean it didn't. We don't know.

The thing is, it's far too complicated to know or pinpoint exactly what leads someone to act the way that Joanna Dennehy does. Joanna was diagnosed as having psychopathic tendencies. So that includes low levels of empathy, low impulse control and a low threshold for boredom. So if you couple this with substance abuse and alcohol abuse from an early age, this can't have helped. And if you are interested in finding out why your genetics might make you predisposed to that sort of thing, we're going to do a bonus Patreon episode on it. It should have gone out on the 1st of July, but we had a technical problem with the recording. We're really sorry. It's going out next Monday. And we'll tell you all about how your brain works,

yours specifically. Tailor an episode to everyone's brain. Back to Joanna after that shameless self-promotion. But it is all very sudden with Joanna Dennehy. It doesn't seem like a buildup. And even when she gets out of prison, she's still very young. She's only 30. And although she'd been in trouble with the police before, nothing in her criminal record of what police themselves call low-level offending would have foretold what was to come. But I did read an interesting interview with a clinical psychologist named Ellie Godsey, who assessed Dennehy. And I think when you look at Joanna's behaviour, Ellie's theory makes a lot of sense.

He said, quote, Dennehy has a serious history of self-harm. Why was she self-harming? It is almost always because they have a history of abuse. We are very likely to have here a woman with a history of serious sexual abuse. She will be somebody whose experience of sexual relationships is about being brutalized. When that happens to young men, they very quickly become violent. It tends to take women much more time to get to the tipping point. It is much more likely for them to self-harm and have mental health problems. Ellie goes on to explain that men act out their distress, whereas women feel their distress. Looking back at the relationships Joanna had with men after her time

in prison, the police always suspected that she was engaging in sex work. Godsey feels that on the day Joanna met Lucas, she flipped and then, quote, externalised her feelings about sex and brutality. Very much, you could say, like Eileen Wuornos. I think in her mind, Joanna was just turning the tables. I'm reasonably convinced that Joanna was sexually abused because if you just look at how sexually violent her crimes are and how violently sexual she is all the time and how explicitly sexual she is from very young, that sort of all points in that kind of direction. Obviously, we can't say 100%, but that just is my inkling.

And also, Joanna absolutely insists that she was sexually abused, although she never gives the details and her parents insist that it's not true. Her parents point the finger at Joanna's first serious boyfriend John Traynor and when we first started looking into this case my immediate reaction was oh she like he's 20 and she's 14 and obviously he abused her and that was the reason for her rapid downfall. But the more we looked into it, the less sure we are, really. Joanna's behaviour started to change in her early teens. By the time she met John Traynor, she was already drinking at school, taking drugs and doing things like burning her books. At 16, Joanna and Traynor had moved out, and for a while they lived rough, sleeping in tents and train

stations. Eventually, they moved into a house in Luton and quickly, while she was still in her teens, Joanna had two children. And soon after she had the kids, she became fully estranged from her parents because she said that they could only see their grandchildren if they paid her for the privilege. Her relationship with Traynor was stormy to say the least. Joanna cheated on him constantly with men and women. She would disappear and leave him with the children for days or weeks on end. John Traynor says that Joanna could, quote, handle herself. And I think what he means by that is he's saying that she's very manipulative. And after more infidelities, the couple tried for a fresh start. They moved to East Anglia,

but Joanna's drinking got worse. She worked as a labourer on farms and sometimes she would even be paid in alcohol rather than cash. It's like she told these people she was working for I don't want the money because then I'll have to give it to John and give it to the kids just pay me in alcohol because that's what I really want. And at this point she was still regularly self-harming cutting her arms, her body, her neck with razor blades and Traynor says it was at this point that she also etched the now infamous tattoo of a star under her right eye. Imagine your mental state for you to take a blade to your face. I can't really. And during this time her rages also became worse. She would kick and

punch Traynor and she would often threaten him with knives. This really fucked me off. In some articles about Joanna Dennehy and about this period of her life when she's with Traynor, they describe her behaviour as tantrums. Can you imagine an abusive man who beats the shit out of his wife or girlfriend being described as quote throwing tantrums? It's pretty vile to be honest. And maybe it seems like semantics, but downplaying the abusive behaviour of women seems very ignorant and very dangerous. Joanna Dennehy, there is no doubt, is a violent, aggressive offender. I personally think John Traynor is very lucky to be alive. And I also think it feeds into the

whole idea of like, oh, she can't really have been hurting him. She's only a woman. Come on, like we should be past that now. As we know Joanna had two kids when she was still just a kid herself and another interesting bit of this story is that Joanna's behavior while she was pregnant was pretty exemplary. John Traynor said that she was super responsible she didn't drink she didn't smoke and she didn't take any drugs while she was pregnant but Traynor said that as soon as the kids were born Joanna Joanna did not want to know. She couldn't look at them, feed them or bond with them. She didn't even want to touch them.

And soon after her second child was born, she disappeared for almost a year and a half. So John Traynor was once again just left with the kids. In the year and a half that she was gone, John had no idea what happened to her or where she was. But when she did come back, she was more violent, more aggressive, and more angry than ever before. What's going on with her behaviour during pregnancy? She cares about these kids.

She doesn't drink, she doesn't smoke, she doesn't take drugs. As soon as they're born, she doesn't want to touch them. I think that maybe, possibly, if we're buying into this sexual abuse argument, she only hurts men she doesn't hurt women she doesn't hurt children so perhaps she does have some sort of moral code where she sees the children as innocent and while they're inside her there's nothing she can do about that so she's just gonna make sure that she does all of the right things and then as soon as she's free

and she's not pregnant anymore she can go and do what she wants to do but i think there's i think it's very interesting that she cares about them while she's pregnant this adds further credence to the idea that we said she's not erratic she's calculated she has impulses that she doesn't want to control she's not ruled by her impulses because she can stop and if we say you know she was very responsible when she was pregnant coming back to the idea of how she was with the kids after they were born trainer also talks about how she almost killed the kids on several occasions she'd be so drunk that she'd knock them down the stairs or even go to put them in scalding baths there are times when trainer is like he literally rushed into the bathroom to see her pouring a boiling bath and going to put one of the children in there when she's drunk. And Traynor also says that she beat him and abused him emotionally,

mentally and physically for their entire relationship. He said that they fought every single day. And he says that he only stayed with her because he wanted to keep the family together. But one night when their two kids were in bed, Joanna turned up drunk with a knife and she started stabbing the floor and threatening Traynor. This, he said, was the last straw for him and he took the kids and left her. Literally overnight.

He kicked her out and immediately started looking for new housing. The next day, Joanna turned up at the kids' school blind, drunk, screaming and raging. So John went and picked up his kids at lunchtime and just fled. He left so quickly that he had to get his mum to clear out the house, sell everything for him and send the rest on to him. And John Traynor, with his now new partner, has been bringing those kids up on his own ever since. So maybe I have to take that back then that she doesn't hurt kids. She obviously does. But she does it when she's blind drunk. Yeah, she doesn't do it with the same intention.

And also the way John Traynor describes it more is that she would threaten him with the knife, but he'd be scared because he's like, one day you're going to threaten those kids. And when she would go to put the kids in like a boiling bath or knock them down the stairs, it was when she was smashed, which is basically all the time. And after John left her, Joanna's behavior got even worse. She drifted from place to place. She was regularly stealing and engaging in sex work to fund her drink and drug habits. And this eventually led her to a new life as a spree killer. Joanna is now serving her life sentence at Her Majesty's Prison, Bronzefield, which is in Surrey, where she has a spate of men who she sends explicit and handwritten letters to on a regular basis. In April of this year, which is 2019, one of them even proposed to Joanna.

So she is by no means done. And she won't be. She's going to do this for the rest of her life. She's got nothing else to do. She loves the control. She loves the manipulation. And exactly. She's got fuck all else to do because she is serving a whole of life sentence.

So she will never be coming out. So yeah, that is the case of Joanna Dennehy. I think a really modern serial slash spook killer and interesting because she's a woman and the traits that she portrays. I think overall, it's just a really fucking sad story. It is. But in a way, she got what she wanted. She went to prison. She got notoriety and she got to go back to prison and she still has access to men. She's fine. As Hannah said, we're going to be doing our slightly belated because of my fault. I set up my laptop incorrectly and we couldn't record and thought we'd recorded and then

it hadn't recorded. So we will be doing the delayed episode for Patreons next Monday on the warrior gene, which is super exciting. I think it really links quite heavily to this because we do go into the idea of women who have the warrior gene. I think Joanna's a prime fucking candidate for that oh I think so I think she's a double xer which you all know what that means if you listen to the patreon episode and also buy your tour tickets there are still tickets I know some there was some confusion on some of the websites we're really sorry but that is completely out of our hands but there are tickets

for every show so please go and buy them and we will come and see you and your lovely faces in cities near you we can't wait and if you don't know it's going to be edmund kemper is the case that we're covering so it's all very exciting so yes with that we have some thank yous to give for our patreon people um oh before that follow us at red handed the pod on all the social medias if you'd like to give us money you can can do so. If you'd like access to that Warrior Jean episode, come join the Patreon group. And here are some people who have done so. There is a massive fucking list, so I think we might just collapse before we get through this. But I'm going to go as far as I can and then hand it over to you. Okay.

On your marks. Thank you, Chelsea, Ashton Dudleston, Fanny Goodman's daughter. I'm so good at the Icelandics ones. You are. Fanny Goodman's daughter. Chloe Bircher, Jordan Brown, Elizabeth Zayas, Jess Andes, Amy Dunno, Rebecca Wall, Emily, Rachel Krasinski, Ariane Oglesby, Christina Ferriero, Rachel Hale, Mrs. Boss, Molly Russell, Alexandra Bergeron, Gina, Lisa Ryan, Lily Conta, Jane Greenwood, Cherie, Anna Fane, Michelle Walters, Claire, Sarah Whiteside, Sputnik, A. Spencer Hall, Mary Anderson, Marcy Tcy tinker tickner even patty amato k coats michelle wernsberg

karina georgia grace hayes and i'm gonna have to hand it over to you ignatius henchel liz rasper rosemary robertson samir kawaja saura denavi malin borjan camille am Cadell Adam Van Der Pass Sam Jessie Bell Stephanie Ella Johnson Elaine Ballinger Lauren Tiuli Tanya Nick Roberts Davis and then Maggie James

there we go we love you Carly Buckingham Verena Sleich I think Anita Ni Raghalai oh I'm sorry Anita Bethy

Jessica Jessica Sheehan, Heather Phoenix, Sarah Durkup, Anka Kalia, Beth, Hannah Megathin, Amber Peterson, Chandler Bing, Natalie Lecompte, Megan Quinn, Mia McCarthy, or Maya McCarthy, I'm not sure, I'm sorry. Another Jennifer, Anna Raymondos, Kathy Perkins,

Mallory Robinson, Kristen, Danny Bongat, and Michelle. Katie Perkins. What did I say? Kathy. Oh, I'm sorry, Katie.

We did well. You did better than I did today. But yeah. Thanks, guys. We really fucking appreciate it. And we'll see you next week for something else. And if you're a patron, we'll see you on Monday. something else and if you're a patron we'll see you on Monday so not even next week

bye bye I'm Jake Warren and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now, exclusively on Wondery+. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part,

Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me. And it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding. And this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha

exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made, a seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs,

a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.