RedHanded - Episode 105 - Julie Ward: Murder on the Massai Mara

Episode Date: August 1, 2019

In 1988 Julie Ward headed off on the trip of a lifetime to Kenya, but just a week before she was set to return home she took one last trip into the Massai Mara game reserve - and vanished. Julies Father John flew to Kenya immediately to help with the search, but in a cruel twist just a week later it was he who found his daughters dismembered remains in a remote spot on the park. This set in motion a story that would be riddled with mystery, rumours and lies - and leave Julie's family still fighting for justice some 30 years later.    See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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And welcome to Red Handed. Oh, oh, oh, oh. What if, is this going to be the new artwork episode? Potentially. Potentially, yes. How do we do that? There's new artwork. There's new artwork. You might have seen it pop up on your phone.

It's new. That's our artwork now. See you later. The one that we made at the beginning. We've got a brand new one. But, you know, that old one. Seen us through some stuff. Have a little moment.

Spin it like an old friend. Silence for it. Like an ugly old friend. I made it for $1 on Canva two years ago and I was like, yeah, that looks good. That looks great. That's our logo. Now that one is gone and now you can have our faces on your phone while you're listening to us. Aren't you lucky? Exactly. So with that, take a look at that logo, close your eyes and lose yourself in what is going to be a very complicated and infuriating case. In 1988, Julie Ward, a 28-year-old woman from Britain, left her job as a publishing assistant to go on the trip of a lifetime to Kenya.

But on the 6th of September, she was reported missing because a week before she was set to return home, Julie had headed back into the Masai Mara game reserve and vanished. When Julie's remains were found soon after she disappeared, it sparked a search for the truth that's still not been resolved over 30 years later. Today we're going to try and unpick the truth, the rumour and the mystery surrounding Julie's tragic death because there is a lot of uncertainty around Julie's case, as you'll see throughout the story. And with the huge amount of resistance from the Kenyan government, of course, rumours swirl of alleged cover-ups. But even though this is episode 167 million, I don't know what it is, but it's probably 105. Let's do what we always do and start at the very beginning. Julie was born in Bury St Edmunds, which is where I

bought my dog, on the 20th of April 1960 to British parents John and Jan Ward. The couple, who had already had two sons, were delighted to have a little girl. Julie had a very normal childhood. Her family were loving and by all accounts, Julie was a happy little girl. I think it's important to say as well, like her family, they're super loving. Like I said, she comes in, she's the baby, she's the only girl. And her parents are loaded. Like her dad is a quote unquote millionaire hotelier. That's how he's described everywhere.

Millionaire hotelier. That sounds like some sort of game show. It does. Millionaire hotelier. I mean, I don't know what the premise is. Spin the wheel of the Marriott. I don't know. Something like that.

They're comfortable. They're very like a middle class, normal family living in Bury St. Edmunds with three kids. It's very nice around there. Very nice around there. He sounds so middle. It's very nice around there. But you probably have to now be a millionaire hotelier to buy a house around there. Quite possibly, yeah.

At the age of 28, Julie was working as a publisher's assistant in Suffolk. But her real passion was wildlife photography. And I think like most people around that age and people who have the freedom to do so, Julie hit a bit of a crossroads. She felt like, do I just carry on? Or do I quit and go traveling and pursue my passion and I think that is pretty cool I mean I did it quite a lot younger I did it at 22 but actually I think because I went earlier I moved to Costa Rica when I was so young

now I'm kind of fine but like all my mates who stayed in London and went into work straight after uni they're hitting sort of 27 28 and they're getting itchy feet and they're like oh well maybe I'll just move to Amsterdam and do a master's in like butterfly collecting. Do you know what I mean? Exactly. I think that sort of need or that urge or that itch, if you have the freedom to be able to do so, comes at some point sooner or later. I did it when I was like 26 and I'm so glad I did because now I'm like, yeah, done it. Had my fun. I'm good. Let's start a full time career as a podcaster.

Yeah, I know who who would have known that we'd end up doing this I think I'd probably do like six months to a year in a different country for work but I wouldn't do what I've done I wouldn't just move to another country on a whim again and I couldn't drag myself around you know 10 countries in 10 months again absolutely not I think I'm still at least got one parasite in me. Still, I reckon. Minimum. Just an insidious little buddy. And that explains the obsession with monsters inside me. Maybe, maybe. Maybe you've got one that's in your brain. Maybe. I think not. I think if it's anywhere, it's not in my brain. I hope. Let's see. Who knows? That's the fun of

that kind of little parasitic time bomb. Who knows what's going to happen? Anyway. So eventually, after spending some time as a publisher's assistant, Julie decided that it was time for a break. So she took a year out and she went looking for some adventure. And with that, in February 1988, Julie left England for a seven-month trip to Kenya. She was going to be staying in the capital, Nairobi. But to get to that wildlife that she was so keen to photograph, she needed to go a bit off the beaten track.

So in September, Julie left Nairobi and took a trip to the Masai Mara Game Reserve. And it was here that she was planning to capture photographs of the annual great wildebeest migration. Now, the great wildebeest migration is, honestly, like, I looked at pictures of this, I haven't't seen it but it looks like a truly spectacular event. It's basically when over 2 million wildebeest, zebra, gazelles and like other grazers as they call them move through the Serengeti and the Masai Mara across northern Tanzania and Kenya in these giant herds. I think it is like think the scene from the Lion King like I think that's is, but more ongoing and less sad, probably. Less Mufasa dying. Honestly, so tragic. And this case,

this case is so sad. And when we were doing the research, this is so inappropriate. I actually did have to take breaks from doing the research and typing up this case. And during those times, I listened to The Cirque of Life. You fucking sicko. I know. That's the sickest thing you've ever said. Ever. Or just on the podcast. I mean, I don't know. I don't hear you talking all the time. No, I have, yeah.

Get it? It was just... You definitely said way worse shit than that. If our chat gets leaked, we're finished. What music is it when they do the stampede, though? It's not the... That's such a scornful way to begin. Oh, my God.

Can you imagine if they're playing that while the wildebeest are stomping? I don't think there is music while the wildebeest are stomping, is there? No, maybe not. Just sad music. Long live the king.

That's my Scar impression. So good. We, I was driving when I did my like fucking 10 hour drive down to Wales last weekend. We listened to like basically all of the Lion King.

And, well, we were just trying to keep ourselves alive because we were in the car for ten hours, nose to tail on every single fucking motorway in the UK. Oh, that is grim. But when we finally got there, I was like a genuine, I can't remember who I was before the car.

Julie didn't go to the reserve on her own. She left Nairobi with an Australian friend of hers, a man called Dr Glenn Burns. The pair had been camping at a place called Sand River Camp near the Masai Mara Reserve, and they had a Suzuki Jeep for transport and to lug around all of their camping stuff. But frustratingly, the Jeep broke down on their journey. Cars breaking down is stressful at the best of times, let alone when you're on the fucking edge of the Masai Mara bloody desert. Is it a desert? It's probably not a desert. Reserve,

etc. Something. Guess who didn't do GCSE Geography? It's me. This is where it starts to go a bit south for me. The biggest problem was that Glenn had to get back to Nairobi that day. So that meant he had to leave Julie and the broken Jeep on their own. Thing is, I think Julie's obviously here on like an extended travelling holiday for eight months, right? But Glenn works there. He works in Nairobi. So he's like, yeah, let's go do a week in the Masai Mara Game Reserve. But he's like, I have to go back to work. And Julie obviously doesn't. So it is a really like, ooh, bit of the story. But you do understand how this happens. Dr Glenn Burns found another way back and Julie agreed to spend the night alone at the Mara Serena Lodge,

where the jeep got repaired. And the plan was that she would drive back the following day. So the next day, September the 6th, Julie took the newly fixed jeep and drove back to the pair's campsite at Sand River Camp to collect their camping stuff. And tragically, this was the last time that Julie would ever be seen alive. Almost immediately, the alarm was raised, since her mate Glenn would obviously have been waiting for her back in Nairobi. So when she doesn't come back, he informs the police that she's missing. And when the news made it back to Julie's parents

in the village of Broccoli in Suffolk, they had little idea what was going on. In an interview, Jan Ward, so Julie's mum, talks about what it was like to hear that Julie had vanished. She said, I heard she was missing. It was a dreadful thing for any mother to hear. Fear takes hold of you. You become rigid. You can hardly move. And I can imagine just this idea of like being sat in the UK. And this is like the 80s. I think now it's easier to stay in touch, like social media, blah, blah, blah. Then just imagine the idea of your daughter's gone off to Kenya and she's just vanished and you have no idea about anything.

And her parents are obviously going to be... Yeah, it's like Lucy Blackman's parents. Exactly, exactly. So Jan's obviously freaking out. And John, Julie's dad, couldn't just sit at home and wait for news. So he flew straight to Kenya to join the search for his daughter. From the off, the Kenyan authorities didn't seem very engaged in driving forward a robust search for Julie. So John Ward organised his own aerial search and found his daughter's Suzuki Jeep in a deep gully several miles from the Sand River camp where she'd been staying. So when he's

in this like helicopter or whatever he's using to look for her, and remember he's a millionaire, he's got loads of money, he spends, in reports you see, up to two million pounds he spent over the course of the last 30 years looking for Julie and over a hundred trips to Kenya he is nothing if not dedicated well you'd have like I think if you've got that kind of means at your disposal and your daughter's missing you would wouldn't it's kind of like Lucy Blackman's dad again he he like exactly exactly the same John as I said he's in like this helicopter or whatever he's using for his aerial search and he saw Julie's jeep stuck in this gully and on top of the jeep someone has written an SOS signal in sand. So it's like that you know she's stuck in this gully or the jeep is stuck in a gully.

There we found it and there's SOS on top. Would kind of give you hope at first wouldn't it because she's not died in the crash or whatever's happened. So John stops the plane or the helicopter and he climbed down into the vehicle, shouting, Julie, Julie, hoping that maybe she'd just been, like we said, in an accident. Maybe she was trapped or maybe she was just sitting in the car waiting to be rescued. But there was no sign of her. John was later flown to a small thicket on the reserve where he was met by park rangers, notably the chief park ranger, whose name was Simon Ole McCullough. I remember him because he's going to become a very important player in the story today.

Simon McCullough took John out to a big tree with an orange towel hanging from the branch. Under the tree was a seat of a fire with ash about two inches deep. In the ash was a mug, a pair of sunglasses, and ominously, there hung in the air an odour of burning flesh. And there, in that fire pit on September 13th, in this remote spot on a massive game reserve, John found Julie's severed leg and a part of her jawbone. And that was all that was left of Julie.

And it was all that would ever be found. In an interview, Jan Ward, Julie's mum, described feeling a horrible sense of relief when John phoned her to say that Julie was dead. She said, quote, in a way, that was a relief. I knew that at least Muff was not suffering terrible things somewhere. The fear went and a sort of misery set in and apparently Muff is Julie's family nickname which is unfortunate. Yeah unfortunate. Mine's pretty bad my family call me Porker. Porker? Yeah. Brilliant. Yep yep yep yep. I say family it's my mum. Adorable. So now we both have pig-related nicknames. So that's great. So the family's grief would quickly be replaced.

But however sad they would have been feeling at this time, the family's grief was quickly replaced by rage and shock. As the Kenyan authorities quickly took the stance that Julie had been killed by a lion or some other wild animal. And the lion can set a fire. Yeah, this is the problem. Okay, yes, I'm sure if you hang out on game reserves, there is always going to be a risk that you might get attacked by a lion or a wild animal.

They're there. But it didn't really make much sense because it was clear to see that Julie's body had been dismembered. And as Hannah said, even if you can accept the dismemberment, her body had been burnt. She was found in a fire pit. And it's not like it was quite a contained fire as well. It's not like it was a wildfire.

No, it was a contained fire. That's why it was like in the seat of the fire, which was a phrase I actually was never familiar with. No, me either, in the seat of the fire. Yeah, apparently it's like the spot in which the fire originates um is what you is what it means by seat of the fire and it can be the spot in which the fire is most like um hotly burning but doesn't necessarily have to be i looked that up on fire dictionary wow because that exists that is a website dictionary but now we all know what the seat of what the seat of a fire is, so you're welcome.

And this is the thing, like, it's very improbable, or it seems very improbable, and it seems very odd that the Kenyan government go with that immediate story as soon as they find Julie. But that is what Julie's post-mortem also went on to indicate. It said that Julie's wounds were torn, so the marks on the bone look like she had been bitten apart. And so it was confirmed at this point that it looked like the work of a wild animal. Remember this post-mortem and remember what this report says because we will come back to it. So even if we can accept that her body looked like it had been torn what is the explanation given for why her remains look burnt and apparently it

wasn't because her body and the remains they found were found in a literal fire pit, but rather, the Kenyan authority said, because her remains had probably been hit by lightning. So she gets attacked by lions or something, and then they carry off what they want of her, and then her body gets hit by lightning. Yeah, well, what are the chances, really? And also, if you get hit by lightning, you don't spontaneously combust, do you?

No. I don't think it starts a little fucking fire pit. Yeah. Not a contained little nice little fire. No. It seems very odd that they go with this line of that this is their story. And just like we're doing and just like you're doing at home, the story started to

raise a lot of eyebrows because it just made less and less sense. So the Kenyan authorities changed their story. And what they said next was, in my opinion, even more outrageous. And the worst thing is that remember that they had time. They had time to come up with something else. And instead of using that time to conduct an actual efficient cover-up, they decided that their new story would be that Julie must have killed herself. And then set herself on fire. Yeah. So let's go with this story, this theory for the moment. So Julie drove her and her mate all the way out to the Masai Mara and then waited all night at a lodge on her own while the jeep was

being fixed after it had broken down. Then she wandered off into the reserve with a load of her camping stuff that, remember, she went and got the camping stuff from the camp. She takes it with her, with all her camera equipment, and then killed herself. How? They never even explain how they think that she did. And also, why on earth would she put SOS on the top of her car if she was going off to kill herself?

None of that makes any sense. And also, then what? She kills kills herself somehow ends up dismembered and then also still gets dropped by lightning let's just say we won't be discussing this theory any further because to be honest i think it's it's farcical and i also think it's incredibly insulting to julie's memory that they would say that she killed herself because she fucking didn't. Let's just say that. So despite whatever crazy things the Kenyan officials were saying and their flat-out refusal to conduct a homicide investigation, it was clear to almost everyone else that this was indeed a murder, especially when it started to appear that Julie hadn't even left the camp,

the one she'd gone back to to pick up her camping stuff. So she hadn't even left the camp of her own volition the day she disappeared because it looks as if her signature had been forged on the signing out forms from the Sand River camp. So that makes it look pretty likely that Julie was abducted from the campsite. Which is really weird because so she spends the whole night at this lodge and when you first start reading the story, don't you think, oh, something happens to her at that lodge because she spends the whole night there on her own.

But no, she leaves the lodge. She gets in the Jeep. It's been fixed. She drives to the campsite. She picks up the camping stuff. And then that's when whatever happens, happens. And presumably they know she's coming back because all of her stuff is there. Exactly.

Exactly. So is it opportunistic? Someone spots her at the camp? Or is it premeditated because they know she's coming back? Does any of her stuff is there. Exactly, exactly. So is it opportunistic someone spots her at the camp or is it premeditated because they know she's coming back? Does any of her stuff get stolen? No, it's all left. Like the jeep, everything, all of the camping equipment, all of the camera equipment, everything is left. The motivations of the authorities as to why they were trying to cover up the obvious fact that this was foul play really does vary depending on what you think happened to Julie. Many say that it was to protect Kenya's lucrative tourism industry. And I could kind of buy that.

I mean, you hear about it all the time of like, I mean, if people are getting abducted and like left in little fire pits with just like their leg and their jawbone, people are gonna be like, oh, maybe I won't go on safari in Kenya in case I get dismembered, you know. So I can understand that argument, but it's possible there might be a bigger reason. After Julie's remains had been found, rumours started almost immediately to circulate that the son of a prominent politician had been involved in her death and that everything else was to cover up that fact. But for now, let's stay in January 1989 because with three months now having passed with no action having been taken by the Kenyan authorities, it became apparent that they were going to stall and dig their heels in. So John

Ward decided to launch an investigation of his own and he managed to get a British pathologist to examine what was left of Julie's remains. The pathologist concluded that Julie's body had been dismembered with a machete and doused in petrol before being set on fire. So this directly contradicts the post-mortem that came out of the Kenyan authorities. But now we have a second opinion by a British pathologist saying that it wasn't in fact an animal attack. It seems to have been, as we all suspected, murder. So following this finding in October 1989, there was an inquest into the case in Nairobi. And it was here that finally the Kenyan authorities

accepted that Julie was murdered. I just think they only accept this at this point because there's literally nothing else they can do. And it's international pressure as well. I think something, I mean, obviously it's different countries, so it's not totally similar, but someone I used to work with, her brother was on contract in the Democratic Republic of the Congo and he died while he was there, and they're South African. And getting his body out of the Congo was an absolute fucking nightmare and they still don't really know how he died and like all of

this stuff and my friend used to work in Virunga National Park and he would deal with this sort of stuff all the time Virunga's in the Congo so I rang him and said you know how do they deal with this and he was like honestly like it's Africa it's gonna take forever and they were telling her that she should agree to have her brother cremated so they could send it back easier. And Hugo was like, absolutely no way, because they will literally send you a box of dust. They just want to get it over with. I've heard similar stories to this,

and I think it is very, very difficult to figure out what actually happened in circumstances like this when no one was there. And really, the authorities just want it to go away. they're not interested in absolutely raking up any details really they're just which is why I think the suicide thing is like though well that's an easy that's an easy story no Kenyans are at fault in that story exactly and I think um or the lions in which case no again no one local is involved in this it's's just the animals. And actually, John Ward, Julie's dad, he has written a book that is out there about his investigation

into his daughter's disappearance and murder, and it's called The Animals Are Innocent. Oh, wow. Yeah. It's a lot. It's a really, like, heartbreaking story, this whole thing, as we'll go on to continue to see. It's a lot.

And I think it's exactly what you said. With this story, because the Kenyan authorities sort of stall so much and don't want to rake anything up, it creates that space for it to have accusations thrown around of cover-ups. I don't know if they're not doing it because they're incompetent or because they genuinely just don't want to draw attention to this. They want it to just go away or they know exactly what happened and they don't want that person or those group of people to be outed and held responsible because it's a conspiracy. That's the sort of whole vibe of this case. So even after all of this, even after the fact that they admit that Julie was murdered,

it still looked like they were either stuck or they were still stalling. So in January 1990, the then UK Foreign Secretary, Douglas Hurd, asked Scotland Yard to assist Kenyan police with the investigation. So a senior Metropolitan Police officer, John Yates, the then head of the Met Special Crime Directorate, flew to Kenya. Now John Yates himself is a very interesting man. I fell down a bit of a rabbit hole reading about him because he is quite an important player in this story. And as we said, he was then the head of the Met's Special Crime Directorate, but he went on to become Assistant Commissioner in the London Metropolitan Police Service and the leader of the Met's Police Services Special Inquiry Squad and the

head of anti-terrorism at Scotland Yard. He's a big dog in the world of UK policing, or at least he was. And the high-profile cases that he was attached to, like for example the Cash for Honour scandal, earned him the nickname Yates of the Yard in the British newspapers. And I thought it was interesting that despite moving into anti-terrorism and Julie's case never having been linked to anything like that, that John Yates still remained involved in this case until 2009. That's mad. He must have so much to bloody do. Head of anti-terrorism at Scotland Yard.

But he wouldn't let this case go. And yeah, even, and like I was about to say, even in 2009, he didn't give up on the case. He was forced off it. Yeah. So in 2009, Yates of the Yard had to step down from Julie's case. Well, he actually had to step down from the Met altogether due to the News of the World phone hacking scandal. And that's a whole other story and one for another day.

Everything we've read about John's involvement with Julie's case, which doesn't speak for everything he was involved in, but the one we're dealing with today, it does really seem like he did everything he could. But for now, let's get back to Julie. In June 1992, so two years after the investigation started, Scotland Yard officers led by Yates charged two park rangers, Peter Keepin and Jonah Magaroy, with Julie's murder. But just six months later, both men were tried and subsequently acquitted in Nairobi.

Throughout this investigation and trial, John Ward was adamant that these men were not responsible for Julie's death. This is the thing that's so interesting with John Ward. He's like pushing and pushing and pushing for justice. He gets Scotland Yard there. He petitions Douglas Hurd to get him to sort of give Scotland Yard the green light to go help Kenyan authorities. But when Scotland Yard do the investigation and pin it on these two men, Peter and Jonah, John is like, no, they didn't do this. They didn't do it. It's someone else.

Which is interesting because it does paint john as either someone who's already decided he knows who it is or as someone who just really really wants the truth and rather than just any sort of justice for julie that is that's so strange so presumably they're acquitted because there there just isn't enough evidence that's exactly it there just isn't enough evidence that's so strange but i suppose like if you've been if you've i mean also your daughter's dead but like if you put all this time and effort and then you just and you think the people who were on trial didn't do it then no you're not really going to stand for that are you but then some people do some people are just like just anyone anyone to pay for it give me my pound of flesh i

want vengeance i want retribution and if scotland yard said that these two men did it then they did it but no john is adamant that it's not them. And it was at this trial that the first public admission of corruption in this case came out. The trial judge said that there had been a cover-up to protect Kenya's vastly expanding tourist industry and he demanded that police investigate three other men on the reserve. One of them being Simon Olo Mak, the chief warden, who had been a star witness for the prosecution. But we'll have to leave this here for a minute because a big old spanner is about to be thrown into the works. In November 1993, things really kicked off with the Julie Ward case. In the vacuum of any real information on this case, salacious stories

started to swish about. And the main one was that Julie had been killed by the son of a prominent politician. That man was called Jonathan Moy, and he was no ordinary man. He was the eldest son of Kenya's former president, Daniel Moy. And it was rumoured that Julie had been having an affair with him. So had Julie been killed by Jonathan, and then the Kenyan authorities were protecting the Moyes, obviously a very powerful and influential family, this had all just been a rumour to start with. But now, in 1993, a man named Valentine Kadipo,

who claimed to be a former secret police officer, approached John Ward and said that he had information that Julie was murdered after stumbling onto something that she shouldn't have. Some reports say that Kedipo believed that Julie was executed because she had stumbled across a secret militia training camp or because she had been the unwitting witness of a drugs transaction in the game park or something to do with a smuggling operation. And also, I presume, having had an affair with Jonathan. Basically, what they're saying is she's having an affair

with Jonathan. There were loads of rumours. There's loads of like random sightings of them together that people come forward and say after she's murdered. But this guy, Kedipo, says that it was because she had seen something she shouldn't have because of her attachment to Jonathan. So John Ward, Julie's dad, checked and cross-checked the allegations and even brought it to the attention of Scotland Yard detectives working on the case to see if they would be able to break Kedipo's story. So get this, the Ontario Liberals elected Bonnie Crombie as their new leader. Bonnie who? I just sent you her profile. Check out her place in the Hamptons. Huh, fancy.

She's a big carbon tax supporter, yeah? Oh yeah. Check out her record as mayor. Oh, get out of here. She even increased taxes in this economy. Yeah, higher taxes, carbon taxes. She sounds expensive. Bonnie Crombie and the Ontario Liberals. They just don't get it. That'll cost you. A message from the Ontario PC Party. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Cone. Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. Everybody know ain't no party like a

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And this is where it all gets very interesting. Because firstly, Valentine Nuruhu Kadipo claimed to be a former secret agent and part of Kenya's General Service Unit, which is a paramilitary force used to squash unrest and bandits and also is tasked with guarding the country's borders. I don't trust anyone who says they were a former secret agent. No. That's like my number one. Because if you were, you wouldn't be telling me.

This is true. There is a big enduring question mark around Kedipo, this guy who comes forward and says all this. I mean, I assume that everyone who tells me they're a civil servant is in fact a spy. But like, on the flip side, anyone who tells me they used to be a spy, I'm like, no, you didn't.

This is a sensible way of thinking. Much more likely to believe you if you're like, oh yeah, I just work for the Home Office. And so Kudipo comes forward with this story and he's adamant that Julie was eliminated by the secret police on suspicion of spying for enemies of the then-president Daniel Moy. And this isn't that crazy a story for a man with as big of an authoritarian slant as Mr Daniel Moy had. But the Kenyan government say that Kadipo was just a teapicker with a grudge and that he had never ever been in the police force, secret or otherwise.

But despite the Kenyan police's denials, Kadipo was questioned by Scotland Yard and he gave a harrowing statement. He claimed to have witnessed Julie's killing first hand. In opinion police's denials, Kajipo was questioned by Scotland Yard and he gave a harrowing statement. He claimed to have witnessed Julie's killing first hand. He said that he was on the game reserve the day that Julie disappeared and he saw a group of the secret police and Jonathan Moy. This next bit is a direct quote from the statement that he gave. He said, I looked and saw it was a woman naked from the waist up with a gag in her mouth and tied with her hands behind her back. I knew she was a victim because that was the way we always tied them up. By now it was past midnight and the half-naked girl I had seen before was

being dragged backwards and forwards by a rope around her waist. Everyone in the group was whipping her with hippo hide whips and shouting questions at her about her movement and what she knew about them. They thought she had been spying on them. The gag was out of her mouth and she was crying and pleading with them. The senior police officer was the worst. He was merciless. I watched for almost 20 minutes and then the whipping stopped. The man in charge, Jonathan Moy, told another man to end it.

Kudipo said Ward was killed by a blow to the base of her skull with a carved Maasai wooden club. He said that she fell down, her body twitched for some minutes before she was quiet. The whole group was then silent, just looking at the body for a while. Then Jonathan Moy raised a hand and said, What we have seen here must remain here, and if you try to tell anyone, the same will happen to you.

After Kedipo gave this statement to Scotland Yard, the then police commissioner, Shedrack Yeruki, disowned Kedipo, saying, We don't know him. He was never a member of our police force. He's just looking for a means of survival in exile and i've got to say i don't believe a fucking word of what he says it's so like clear-cut story do you know i mean it's so like and and jonathan moore was there and he specifically said to everyone that they couldn't tell anybody else or they'd end up the same and like i just don't i don't believe it i don't believe it and that's very fair um to think

that way I absolutely when I first read that I was like yeah I don't don't believe it don't believe him the thing that's interesting is that he incriminates himself in the story like when you read the full statement that he gives like he says that's how we always tied them up that's how I knew she was a victim and he seeks asylum after this like we go on to talk about and Canada is like no way we won't give him asylum because he was part of this criminal organisation. He was part of the secret police. He admits to having done terrible things.

So we won't take him. So firstly, he really, really puts himself in part of the criminal underworld. Again, you could be lying. It's very glamorous still, quote unquote. But also what is interesting is that although the Kenyan authorities are like, absolutely no way, we have no idea who this man is, Scotland Yard always considered Kedipo to be a credible witness. They said that his story was, quote, entirely feasible. And interestingly, I thought they weren't the only ones, because representatives of the British government in

Kampala also believed Kudipo's story and so too did the UN and the Danish government and the Canadian government they just wouldn't give him asylum and it's important to note that these governments undertook their own investigations and assessments before accepting Kudipo's story and the UN actually decided that Kudipo would only be safe if he was given asylum by a country outside Africa. Because originally he was just moved to like Uganda, but they were like, that's not far enough to keep him safe because the stretch is so far. So it was finally after Canada said no, Denmark that agreed to grant Kedipo asylum. And in 2009, Kedipo died of heart failure in Denmark, where he had lived

for the rest of his life after fleeing Kenya. The Kenyan government branded Kedipo a liar and claimed that the whole thing was just a way to discredit Daniel Moy. But I don't know. I'm just, I'm not 100% sure whether I believe Kedipo. But I'm also not 100% sure if I can believe the Kenyan government or the Kenyan police when they say, no, he's bullshit. Because in 1996, the whole idea of like political murder, the whole idea that Julie had been, you know, killed or assassinated or taken out because of some affiliation she had with Jonathan Moy or because of something she'd seen that she shouldn't have seen. That whole idea of political murder was completely ruled out, officially ruled out.

But how can you rule something out when you haven't definitively proven yet what actually happened? That's the thing I don't like. I don't like that either. I think my sticking point with the whole Jonathan Moy story is because I don't know how credible I think the sightings are. I don't know how connected I think she actually was to him and that's why maybe I'm not like full feet into this version of the story because I just

don't know how likely it is that she was actually having an affair with him or knew him or whatever like she's only been there a few months you know definitely I mean she's been there probably by this time about six months so I feel like you're gonna start an affair you're gonna start some sort of sitch could could have happened but he's a very like high up guy he's the eldest son of fucking daniel moore like he's not just hanging out presumably yeah but then maybe he's hanging out in bars and how is she this is what i don't want to know i i want to know is like if she's on this like and obviously she's from a very wealthy family and blah blah blah and she knows this the doctor character in um nairobi but how is she if she's only been there for she's a tourist essentially how has a tourist got in the same room as the president's son in six months she's very pretty when you look at pictures of her she looks alarmingly in the sort of enduring picture of her

there's a picture that you as soon as you google jul Julie Ward and we'll post it, is a picture of her holding like a baby chimp. She looks alarmingly to me like Kate McCann, Madeleine McCann's mum. Oh my God, yeah, you showed me. She absolutely does. Like a really young, because she's 28. She looks like a young Kate McCann. It's freaky in that picture. So I can also imagine that she's out in some bars in Nairobi. This guy, Jonathan Moy, sees her and he's like, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna fucking hit that or whatever. It is the people tell themselves. And now we all know how Cerruti cruises around bars in London. Excuse me, sir. I'd like to hit that. Thank you. Thank you very much. Gonna hit it and quit it. And then I will, I will be quitting it. So just so you know.

Just so we're clear, I would immediately quit it. But this thing, obviously, you Google pictures of Julie and you see pictures of Julie at the point at which she was last alive, obviously. So she's still 28 in those pictures. I made the mistake of Googling Jonathan Moy and I was like, what the fuck? He's so old. Then I was like, hmm, they're recent pictures. And this was 30 years ago. Oh, you did. I know, fuck.

I was like, oh, he's an old fucking man. And also, back then, the thing is with Jonathan Moy, let's examine him, right, as a person. He wasn't just the son of a powerful politician. He was also a rally racing champion in Kenya and we've all had it when you go to another country and you meet a guy and you're like it's kind of like a person that you would never be interested in back home but some it's like you're in another world almost and you're like yeah maybe this is the thing maybe this is who I am now just me do you want to elaborate do you want to take us on a little story?

No, not at all. Story time trip. Not at all. Not at all. No, I know what you mean. When I lived in Costa Rica, it was a bonus if a guy didn't live with his mum. Exactly. Exactly.

You're like, oh my God, not only is his English really good, and not only does he have a job, he doesn't live with his mum. That was a winner. That was great. And then he ghosted me. Fuck you, Juan Pablo. He still looks at my Instagram stories, you know. Fuckin' hell.

Welcome to Hannah's Costa Rican heartbreak. And also, I think race car drivers, I think anything dangerous is really sexy. Exactly. And you can see some old, grainy, black and white photos of him back in the day, of him with his arm out, leaning out of a rally car he's just one he looks really like pleased with himself i can see he's the the

eldest son of the president he's a race car rally driver i can imagine i get it i get it i get it so in 1997 he even won the overall kenya national rally championship title and then later on in life retired to a somewhat quieter life on a farm i think it's all a cover-up with the farm stuff because when you really when you look up into the farm stuff it's like this weird thing where john ward and julie's dad he like drives around to try find the farm and it's like all these other farms super super basic and then it's like jonathan moy's farm and it's like got all these massive like houses and buildings on it and stuff and I'm just like I think he was like a rally championship and then he retires from it

and then I think he just becomes like a fucking mobster and he's like yeah I'm living on this farm I'm a farmer now no he's not I think he's where he's doing his deals it's also possible that he's just a wealthy guy and wanted a nice house. Possibly. Possibly. But during his heyday before his alleged mobster farm, Jonathan Moy certainly seemed to have been a powerful, popular and playboyish kind of guy. So could Julie have met him and they struck up a relationship? Probably. I think it's possible. So maybe after a while, Jonathan became paranoid that Julie was actually a spy sent to keep tabs on him by his father's enemies.

And again, that is entirely possible. Jonathan Moy denied the accusations made against him. Earlier this year, in April 2019, he died. His brother eulogised Jonathan Moy saying that, quote, he will be remembered for his daring exploits on the racing tracks, in muddy and dusty tracks. But I'm pretty certain that despite what we can and cannot prove, he will also be remembered for his link to the murder of Julie Ward. It's tough to know what to make of this bit of the story, because when it first started to get attention,

Jan Ward, Julie's mum, freaked out, saying that the way the media was reporting on it was essentially slut-shaming Julie, with sex stories splashed all over the tabloids. And there are loads of rumours about Julie and Jonathan Moy, but from what we could find, nothing concrete enough. So let's leave this idea behind for the time being. Because just because the Kenyan government had written off the idea of it being a political murder, this case was by no means over. By this point, John Ward had become a political embarrassment to Kenya. He's this guy, he's this wealthy guy who's there, he's digging around and everything, he's constantly getting media attention, and he's

constantly accusing them of cover-ups. And his determination to see justice done had dragged the name of the authorities through the mud for eight years at that point. So with little choice, in 1997, the inquiry was reopened. The case was reopened by Kenya's then Attorney General, and this was to be an independent investigation, led by a brand new Kenyan police team. And following almost another two-year investigation, and 30 fresh suspects being quizzed. In July 1998, the New Kenyan Task Force arrested Simon Ole Makala. Simon, if you'll remember, had been the chief park warden at the Masai Mara Game Reserve at the time of Julie's murder.

He was the one who had led Julie's dad, John, to her remains. He's the one that got John Ward and took him to that weird tree and pointed out Julie's remains in that fire pit. Very convenient. And he was, if you remember, the witness's star prosecution at the previous trial, and the judge had told investigators to look into Simon McCullough. He's got a lot of fingers being pointed at him at this point. And there are a ton of questions surrounding McCullough's behaviour

immediately after Julie's disappearance and death that quite frankly make him look suspicious as fuck. Firstly, he was the chief park ranger at the Masamaru Game Reserve. He was aware of the situation that a woman was missing and he was responsible for all tourists in the park. But he didn't order a search by any of the 113 rangers under his command for a week after Julie had vanished. Why? Is it just like, she's not missing in a city where you think she could be somewhere.

She's missing on a fucking game reserve. You should go look for her, surely. It does seem completely bizarre. But then, I don't know what the standard procedure would be on a game reserve. But you would assume if you've got 113 rangers, you could spare five of them. For a search. For a woman. And he doesn't do anything for a week after she's been missing. I find that very strange. It's also important to say that John Ward, who was obviously looked into this case a lot,

he's spent all this time, he's spent all this time, he spent all these years, he's written these books, he's done a lot of his own investigation. He is convinced that it was Jonathan Moy, but that Simon McCullough covered up the whole thing. That is his theory. And like we said, when John Ward arrived in Kenya to look for Julie, it was Simon McCullough who led him to her remains under that tree in that fire pit.

In a remote part of an absolutely fucking enormous game reserve. How did he know she was there? Because he hadn't done anything. He hadn't looked for her for a week. How does he just immediately know where her body is or where her remains are? So dodgy. And there's some further questionable behaviour that comes to light at his trial. Although McCullough was informed at 11am on the day that Julie Suzuki was spotted in the gully, dodgy. And there's some further questionable behaviour that comes to light at his trial. Although Makala was informed at 11am on the day that Julie Suzuki was spotted in the gully,

instead of rushing to the scene to take command of the ground search, Makala drove to Serena Lodge, the place that Julie had stayed the night before, 50 kilometres in the opposite direction. At the trial, Prosecuting Counsel Salim Danji told the court that McCullough had, quote, not only suppressed evidence, but also told deliberate untruths in order to steer away any suspicions of his having been involved or having committed the crime. When he was questioned about how he knew where Julie's remains were, despite not having looked into her disappearance at all for a week, McCullough claimed that he led John Ward to his daughter's remains by following footprints

and having seen some circling vultures ahead. Hmm. This is an enormous reserve. Those vultures could have been anything. A dead zebra. It could have been anything. And when I was first thinking about that, I was like, well, you know, he is a game ranger.

Surely he's trained to be able to track things and like read the like land or whatever but to take her dad straight there when he hasn't even done a search the time-logged radio message that mccullough made to his reserve headquarters upon his discovery together with charts drawn up after time and distance studies in the reserve, show that McCullough could only have gone straight to the remains. He wasn't driving around looking for them. He knew where they were. Therefore, he absolutely must have had prior knowledge of where the body was. The time that he radios back to HQ to tell them he found her or found the remains and the time it had taken him to drive out there. It's literally like if you look at the map, he just drove in a fucking straight line to where her body was or where her remains were. You'd think that like if he's covering

this up for the bloody president, he'd have more support from the secret police and they're like, hey, quick tip, buddy. Don't drive straight to it. I mean, seriously, drive around for a bit before you say that you just got there because you saw vultures up ahead. No, I don't believe him for a second. Before McCullough's trial began, John Ward said that after 10 years, he was willing to wait for the trial to be done right. And in his conclusions, the trial judge, Daniel Agonyanya, exhibited the same view. And once again, on the 16th of September 1999, Simon Ole McCullough was found not guilty at the second trial involving Julie's case. And again, this was because of a lack of evidence. The judge ruled that the prosecution's case was, quote,

based purely on circumstantial evidence and that nothing added to nothing makes nothing. Simon McCullough maintained his innocence throughout, claiming, quote, I was charged in a court of law for a crime I knew nothing about. I was tortured. I have been traumatized, but I never killed Julie Ward. I never knew her and I never saw her. That is all. So he's not even saying like, I didn't cover up. He's saying I didn't murder her, which is probably true. There's just loads of like hearsay and rumour and like random people giving statements and bits of evidence to newspapers and stuff that hasn't really been backed up. So it's hard to know what to include and what to leave out with this case. But there was a Swiss TV crew that were basically on the scene at the Masamaru Reserve as soon as Julie's remains were found. No, sorry, as soon

as Julie was reported missing, actually. And they offered their truck, weirdly, I thought, they offered their truck to Simon Makala and said, you can use our truck if you want in her search. Why they do that, I don't know. I'm sure that they have trucks on this fucking massive Masai Mara game reserve, but they do. And Makala told them essentially to fuck off and they said that after they had done everything they needed to do they went to his office to like sign out or whatever they needed to do and they found Simon Makala there with his head in his hands and they said quote he said that he had just gotten off the phone with President Daniel Moy and he had been summoned to go speak to him. Indeed. Hmm. Indeed. Like, I know. And this is why, I don't know,

we're telling you this is what the Swiss crew said, but they're also fucking, like, a TV crew. Like, I don't know. I don't know. If it is true, it does fit with the timeline. At this point, she's been missing. If he is doing it, if he is covering up, he's being really dumb about it.

But he also gets away with it, so maybe he's not that dumb. Maybe he's actually done, I mean, he's done fine because he didn't go to prison for it. That's that. In 2001, back here in the UK, Lincolnshire police examined the case following complaints by John Ward about the way the investigation had been handled in Kenya. And in March 2004, the coroner for Greater Suffolk, Peter Dean, announced that he would conduct a full inquest in an effort to reveal all available evidence. So in May 2004, the inquest was held

and Ipswich Coroner's Court ruled that Julie Ward had indeed been unlawfully killed. And this inquest is pretty wild. And one of the most interesting pieces of testimony came from a man named Dr. Adel Yusuf Sheikha. Dr. Sheikha was the pathologist who conducted the came from a man named Dr. Adel Yusuf Sheikha. Dr. Sheikha was the pathologist who conducted the original examination of Julie's remains. Remember way back at the start of the episode when we said that the Kenyan post-mortem into Julie's remains said that

she had been attacked by a wild animal, etc, etc. Dr. Sheikha was the one who did that. Now he said that on September 15th, 1988, he had been handed Julie's remains by a Kenyan policeman. So this is like a day or two after she's found. And so Shaker says that, quote, he showed me a left lower leg and a lower bony jaw and a pair of sunglasses, a lock of blonde hair and some other items. Importantly, Dr. Shaker noted that, quote, the jaw and the leg had been bisected by a clean-cut fracture. Don't you think it's weird that they leave a mug in her sunglasses and a bit of hair?

Yeah. To be like, oh, it's definitely her. I think she was killed on the farm, maybe, because she was signed out, abducted from that Sand River camp, taken somewhere else and killed. And then I think like a bit of her leg and her jawbone were left there to make it look like a lion had done it. Maybe.

A lion that can set a fire. Yeah, apparently. So we're talking about bones and it's a clean cut fracture. And Dr. Shaker said that he'd also noted a wound, which was between nine centimetres and seven centimetres long on one side of Julie's leg bone. Dr Shaker also added that, quote, I later glued the jaw together just to show that it was a clear cut fracture and the pieces fitted together. And I'm pretty sure you can't do that if someone has been chewed up by a lion.

He said that he was then shown Miss Ward's dental chart, which matched the broken jaw bone. So it is definitely her. It's definitely her bones. And it all seems straightforward. It was definitely Julie, and her body seemed to have been dismembered. Shaker's report would reflect this at first. Then Dr. Shaker said that on the 21st of September 1988, so six days later, he was visited by his boss, Dr. Jason Kaviti, Kenya's director of public health. Dr Shekhar said that he had heard Dr Kaviti ask a secretary for the post-mortem report on Miss Ward. According to Shekhar, Dr Kaviti took the report, read it and then said, no, no, no. At that point, Shekhar knew that Kaviti was going to the report, and that's exactly what he did. According to Dr. Shaker, obviously Dr. Cavite is not admitting to tampering with autopsy reports.

Cavite told Dr. Shaker that it was just his opinion that the wound was not torn, but clean cut. So Cavite changed the words and asked Shaker to sign it, which he did. But Dr. Shaker's statement at the inquest made it clear that he knew it was untrue to say that Julie had been eaten by wild animals. This is the thing. And he says, I didn't really know what to do. He's my boss. I'm used to following authority. He came in, he made it very forceful. I didn't have another option, but I knew it was wrong. I knew that this was incorrect. But what can you do? And I think it's also interesting the timeline that this happens around. Shaker gets the body almost a day or two, gets not the body, but you know, the leg and the jawbone. Very quickly after it's found, he makes his, you know, he looks at, he makes his judgments, he writes the autopsy report originally. And then six days later, so a week later, Kaviti's in. Feels like just enough time for a cover-up to start churning, no? But the thing is

whatever we make of this, this information was taken from Dr Schaefer by a Scotland Yard detective who was working on the case and this snippet of information I feel gives us real insight into just how corruptly this case was handled from the start and it does lend credence to the idea that there is somebody potentially more important involved in this case and that's why these kind of things are happening. Dr Kaviti was the then Kenya's head of public health. He's not just some random bloke who's his boss. Now as we said the inquest did rule that Julie was killed unlawfully but afterwards nothing much really happened for years. Because I guess an inquest in this country into an

investigation happening in another country, aren't really going to force anybody to do very much immediately. But then in 2009, when the murder investigation was again reopened, John Yates of the Yard, before he stepped down that is, made a secret trip to Nairobi to meet with Kenyan police investigators. And it was all very hush-hush and you can't find out too much information about this because you have to remember that at this point, John Yates was head of counter-terrorism or head of anti-terrorism at Scotland Yard. So anything he was doing was very secretive. Yates was convinced that the 21-year-old case could in 2009 be solved by advancements in forensic science techniques. Hopes of bringing Julie's killers to justice

had been raised after human DNA from the murder scene, believed to belong to one of her attackers, was actually identified. But the thing is, this information hasn't been made available to Scotland Yard, like who this DNA has been identified as. And John Ward said in a statement just last year, quote, what we would really like is to get our suspect's DNA,

but of course I haven't got the power to do it. So it's just there. They have the DNA. Well, they have potential DNA from the crime scene, but they're not sharing it. Police departments in the same country, in the same state, sometimes don't communicate with each other. Like when it's inter-international agencies,

like it's barely possible sometimes to get information across. And also in the sort of Kenyan police, it's not in their interest to have the killer identified. It really isn't. No, from everything we've said so far, it really doesn't seem like they have any interest in definitively proving what happened here. And it's also been revealed that a credible new witness has come forward claiming that she knows where that the child remains of Miss Ward that were

found 21 years ago were placed on a remote area of the Masai Mara to throw investigators off the scent of where the murder had actually taken place. And it makes sense because it's like, where's the rest of her body? And I think it's like the glasses and the mug and the hair, like they've just taken just enough for it to be. And also like, I feel like the jaw is significant because that's how most bodies are identified is through dental records so they're like taking that specifically to be like oh it's definitely her that's very true that's a really good point it is the idea of we don't want there to be any ambiguity of like this whole thing into is it her or is it not we want them to know it's her but they we want them to think it was lions or something else and just

case closed yeah and despite the fact that he still hasn't got his hands on what he needs, John Ward says that he has much more faith in the current Kenyan government, but he's still trying to secure what he has been fighting for for 30 years. And that's justice for Julie. We haven't done one like this for so long where I've just been like, I don't know. I don't know. I wish we could give you guys like a like a well I guess we can give you what we think probably happened and I am inclined to agree with John Ward I think that potentially Julie was in some sort of romantic relationship potentially with Jonathan Moy and I think that um maybe he got a bit paranoid and a

bit suspicious of her because maybe people were whispering in his ear, can you really trust this woman that you've just brought into our circle? He is a connected man. I think he is doing some undercover, not so, you know, legit things. And his dad is like an authoritarian, like, ruler. I can totally imagine that there is a paranoid streak that runs deep. And I think maybe when she just turned up at that campsite or something, he was keeping track on her. She looked like she was doing something dodgy in his paranoid mind. And he killed her.

And then Simon McCullough covered it up because of who his dad is. I think that story is asking you to believe the least amount of outrageous things. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? I think if that's what John Ward thinks happened and he's done more investigating than anybody then I think I probably am with him I know he's just doing what any dad would if they could but so much props to John Ward for everything oh absolutely he investigates everything he doesn't take every bit of

information that comes to him and run wild with it and start screaming and shouting about it. He investigates, he investigates, he investigates into everything. It's really just a heartbreaking story. He's written a couple of books on it. I just thought The Animals Were Innocent is the title that sort of struck me the most. in as much as we could uncover, given all of the rumour and untruth and mystery surrounding her vanishing and her death, her absolute murder, not her death, her murder, you can let us know what you think on all the social medias. You can follow us at RedHandedThePod. You can also go get yourself some lovely merch if you would like to do so. We haven't plugged that in a while.

We'll put the link somewhere, maybe in the episode description as well, along with the tour ticket link. Buy tour tickets. If you have to choose between merch or tour tickets, please buy a tour ticket. Buy tour tickets. We would love to see you there.

It's going to be, honestly, it's going to be just so much fun. We're so excited. And we would love for you to all see it. So apart from that, you can also help support the show through Patreon. And here is a massive fucking list of all of you amazing people. Thank you to Mir, Mir? Yeah. Catherine Lindhart, Lindsay Boba, Carla Roman, Joe himself, from Joe himself. Thanks, Joe.

Anna Sweeney, Amy Crane, Gretchen L. Wright, Mindy Weisler, Amanda Sullins, Rebecca White, Thanks, maybe. Christopher Sullivan, Natalie White, Sandra Simmons. Sandra Sims, where did that come from? Lindsay Kaleraki, Alexandra Hignett, Sarah Villiet. Okay, you go. I'm so hot. Nicole Well, Kristen Brown, Frank van der Graagd, Adria Kavanagh, Doc Jaber, Jill Stacey, Maya Welburn, Jamie Rockford, Emily Rich, Rachel Zimmerman, Hayley, Carolyn O'Reilly, Stephanie Montoya, Ella L. Miller, Keira Webster, Catherine Saldivar, Kelly Twanda O'Neill, Laura Adams,

Lexi Lavelle, Danielle Callaghan, Stuart Spence, Brittany Bestwick, Jacqueline Kloss, Jackie O'Connor, Val S, Mike Smith, Kieran, Nigel Dimact, Jamie Lynn Sweeney, Bea Davis, Madeline Rice, Casey Leaps Heaps, Madeline Gauthier, Carly Rose, Katrina, Bad Betty Crocker, Kerry Thomas, Samantha Wilson, Jenny Aminette, Andrea Marong, Jay Growell, Guesty, Michaela Martinez, Natasha Lapine, Daily Vasquez, and I think I'm going to have to leave the rest until tomorrow because I'm going to die. Let's stop. And I feel like everyone deserves a proper thank you. So we're going to do the rest of them tomorrow

when we record the following week's episode. So thank you all for listening. And we will see you. Thanks, guys. We'll see you next week. Goodbye, Tickets. See you in September. See you on tour.

Bye. Bye. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti.

It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place

where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection.

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