RedHanded - Episode 107 - Pakistan’s Kim Kardashian & The Selfie That Killed

Episode Date: August 15, 2019

Qandeel Baloch was a social media sensation, women’s rights activist - and a queen of controversy. In 2016 Qandeel released a series of photos and videos that she had captured with one of Pakistan’s most influential and powerful clerics. She also accused him of sexually harassing her - 25 days later Qandeel was murdered; rocking Pakistan as much in death as she had done in life. If you want to skip Suruthi's travel tales, please skip to 7:40 Sources: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jul/09/qandeel-baloch-murder-pakistan-social-media-star https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/22/qandeel-baloch-feared-no-one-life-and-death https://youtu.be/jUVyz2OQjbc https://youtu.be/ptVjXHgsal4 A Woman Like Her: The Short Life of Qandeel Baloch by Sanam Maher https://www.amazon.co.uk/Woman-Like-Her-Qandeel-Baloch/dp/152660759X   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Get ready for Las Vegas-style action at BetMGM, the king of online casinos. Enjoy casino games at your fingertips with the same Vegas strip excitement MGM is famous for when you play classics like MGM Grand Millions or popular games like Blackjack, Baccarat and Roulette. With our ever-growing library of digital slot games, a large selection of online table games and signature BetMGM service, there's no better way to bring the excitement and ambiance of Las Vegas home to you than with BetMGM Casino. Download the BetMGM Casino app today.

BetMGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. 19 plus to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact ConnexOntario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor. Free of charge.

BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Good morning, my red-handed friends, or good afternoon, good evening, or good night, depending on what time you are listening to this. I'm saying good morning because it is half past five,

because the fire alarm in my bedroom has been going off every minute since five o'clock. Anyway, you don't care about that. Here's what I'm here to tell you about. We have another change to our Patreon page. From now on, from today, our $20 tier patrons will be receiving enamel pins instead of t-shirts. Why, you ask? Because you can wear a pin every day. T-shirts, maybe only maximum three days in a row, and that's if you don't tell your mum.

So, you heard it here first. Also, please buy your tour tickets. We are coming to Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow, London and Cardiff in September this year, 2019. There will be a link to tickets in the description of this episode. OK, on with the show. I'm Suruti. I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed. Before we kick off today, I just have to say today

is the very first day of the rest of my life. No, the very first day that we are recording that I am a full-time podcaster. It's a Monday morning. It's a Monday morning at 11am rather than a Sunday night at 8pm when I am like on peak stress alert and we're trying to sit here and record. This is a revelation. I just got back from a circuit training class that I went to at nine. I did just get back from Boston and New York where I did my very last events for my company that I used to work for. Well, I went to Boston for the event and then I went to New York just for just for lols for a couple of days with my colleague I have to tell you about what happened so Boston good it was all good great fine and then so unorganized considering I was someone who worked in events and I was going with my colleague Maddie hi Maddie who listens and

whose mom is the one that wrote us that little note to be like do Andre Chikatilo oh is that her mom that's so funny and I was like okay so the flight from Boston to New York is like $250 but I can get us there on a bus for $27 and she was like okay let's do the bus then it's only four and a half hours it's a greyhound bus and she was like I don't know what that means that sounds fine and so when we were in the the Uber on the way to the bus station, I just Googled Vince Lee and let her read it. Oh my God. But full respect to her. She read it.

She was like, oh my God, that's fucking crazy. I can't wait to get on this bus. I was like, you're worse than me. But yes, if you don't know the Vince Lee story, go back and listen to our episode on the wizard kid who thought he could skin that other boy yeah i'd forgotten about that little connect exactly and we did talk about it there go have some fun homework to do and read up about vinsley if you don't know about that but anyway we get onto this greyhound and i'm like ever the optimist i'm like it's gonna be

fine nothing is gonna happen oh God. It was one of the weirdest bus journeys I've ever been on my life. And I've once spent 27 hours on a bus in like deepest Asia. It was so weird. So the bus sets off. We're like driving along. And then this guy gets up and goes into the toilet and smokes. And it's disgusting. It like obviously fills the bus up with smoke. And just thought gross he went and sat back down this woman she's not having any of it she gets up and goes and tells the bus driver that someone's been smoking in the back he then starts swearing and shouting over the tannoy who the fuck has been smoking on my bus oh my god and i was like okay he's just doing he's just

scare tactics these are scare tactics he's just like kicking off it'll be fine and if you're thinking this is like very late at night or very early in the morning it's like half past six in the evening so it's not like prime madness territory bus starts to slow down we're on the highway and my colleague is like i think he's stopping the bus oh my god he can't be stopping the bus we're on a highway he stopped the bus on the side of the road just in the hard shoulder just pulled the bus over bus full of people it's absolutely packed gets up and is screaming at everybody oh my god which fucking selfish bastard just smoked on my bus show yourselves and he was like who is it who is it and

he was like don't make me search every single person's bag in here to find out who it was and at first I was still like is this just like panto is this just like a bit of theater the greyhound experience like you pay an extra 50 cents to get shouted at by the bus driver. Exactly. Bus drive and a show. I was like, this can't be happening. And he starts pacing up and down the bus. And I then got a bit like, okay, something's about to happen. Yeah. And then this woman, this like elderly woman, she's not even sat in the aisle seat.

She sat in the window seat at the back, hops over the person she sat next to, jumps into the aisle and just starts pacing. And she's like, which of you selfish pricks is holding this bus up to tell us who it is now? Just admit it. And I was like, we all know who it is. And I'm like too short to see him over the seat.

I'm like leaning into the aisle to watch what's happening. It was just so insane. That sounds horrifying. And did he give himself up or did someone rat him out? No, he sat there in complete silence. Everyone was looking at him and everyone's looking at the bus driver and the bus driver's like, there's only one person on this bus who's not making eye contact with me right now. So I know who it is. And I was just like, what are you going to do to him? It just got very intense. So Maddie and I are sat there holding hands because I'm genuinely scared at this point. Everybody else just seems so chill. Yes, this woman got up and was like pacing up and down and

like yelling. Everyone else still looking at their phones, just completely chill. Me and her are the only ones on that bus who look scared. I was like, is this just normal behavior? Eventually he gives up and he starts the bus again. And I said to Maddie, I was like, were we the only ones on that bus who look scared I was like how is this just normal behavior eventually he gives up and he starts the bus again and I said to Maddie I was like were we the only ones that like had that reaction everybody else seemed fine and she was the best like she goes well that girl was just taking pictures of the sunset so yeah I think we were genuinely the girl sat in the seat parallel to us was taking pictures of the sunset through the window oh my god it was the weirdest maybe that's just her like coping mechanism it's a high like high intensity situation she's like oh better better do it for the gram bit of mindfulness and just look at the

sunset and take pictures of it i admire every single person's coping mechanisms on that grey hound bus because they were chill that That is absolute madness. It was. That's the only word for it. Oh, I didn't realise it was that far from Boston to New York. I thought it was closer than that. Actually, that was the express. So it was Boston and first stop was Port Authority in New York. And it was, yeah, it was about four and a half hours. So it wasn't too bad. But it was, it was very strange, that bus journey. But yes, loved it. Had a fucking great time in New York. Stayed in Bed-Stuy.

Don't know if anyone saw my drunken Instagram story. Oh, I did. I now love Popeye's chicken. It's the best chicken I think I've ever had in my entire life. I ate it both nights I was in New York. That is one of the most next morning humiliating Google searches I've ever ever done where I looked back at my phone and I was like, oh, because we were out in a bar and I was like, everything closes way later in America. But I was like, Bed-Stuy, Popeye's chicken, opening hours, 4am apparently. So that's delicious. Also, I just have to say quick shout out to Carrie, who is a waitress at Glasserie

in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. I got my first actual face-to-face recognition. Recognition, is that the right word? No, I got recognized for the first time ever. It was insane. I was just casually having brunch in this place. Carrie's my server. She's fantastic. Lovely. You are an absolute babe, Carrie. Thank you very much. And then at the end, she was like, I listened to your podcast. I almost fell off my chair. It blew me away. But yeah, that's basically all my stories. That was very fun. Thank you for listening. Shall we kick off with today's story? Maybe you need to start another podcast like this week with Saruti. Now I have so much time.

Now I like fried chicken. Oh, I've always liked fried chicken. But now I can go to circuit training to work it off so I can eat it. Okay, today's story is one that I've wanted to cover for a really long time. It's a really sad story. In 2016, a young woman named Kandil B Baloch was found dead. She had been drugged and strangled to death in her bed whilst visiting her parents in the city of Multan in Pakistan. Kandil was just 26 years old. About a two-hour drive from Multan, in the hyper-conservative

province of southern Punjab, Pakistan, is the village of Shah Siddharth Din, and this is where Kandil had been born and grown up. But when she lived here, her name had been Fauzia Azim. And it's hard to overstate just how conservative an area in Pakistan this is. Women are rarely seen in public, and when they are, most wear burqas that completely cover them, eyes and all. A Pakistani journalist from Karachi,

who visited the area to write her book on Kandil called A Woman Like Her said in an article that I read with her that she'd never been somewhere where she'd seen that. And she was told during her visit that the tribal belt of Balochistan province started not far from Shah Sadar Din and the women there were apparently not even given shoes because, quote, you'll never look at any man if you're scared of what your naked foot might fall in when you leave your home. I don't think I understand what that means. In like a lot of places where it is very conservative, like very hyper-religious, like areas essentially, let's be real, where women are oppressed, you look at the floor when you walk oh I see you don't look up you don't look you don't make eye contact with other men that are passing by you don't do that it's about modesty it's about looking down it's about being chased

you know so if you're scared of where your foot might step you're not going to be looking around right right so it's like kind of I mean a much more severe version of like a lot of women's clothes don't have pockets because if you can't carry stuff you can't have it you have to rely on other people to have it for you which is traditionally why women's clothes don't have pockets and also why women's shirts have the buttons the opposite way to men's shirts because it's more difficult to do it yourself exactly it. It's this idea of when you step outside, to behave yourself, to not look for the advances of other men or the glances of other men or to attract attention where you shouldn't be.

Keep your head bent and bowed and look down when you walk. Yeah. And the best way to force a woman to do that, don't give her any shoes, apparently. Kandil grew up in this kind of environment in the tribal belt, as it were, with her parents and two sisters and five brothers. As a child, she was obsessed with TV and the idea of living a glamorous life far away from where she was. But as a teenager, as would have been the case with most girls in her village, she was forced to get married.

Kandil was married to an older local man called Asik Hussain. The pair had a baby boy, but just a year later, Kandil took her baby and fled to a women's shelter. She claimed that her husband was abusive, that he beat her, tortured her, and was doing stuff like burning her with cigarettes. Kandil said that she feared for her life, and with nowhere to turn, she had to run. In the shelter, she had a roof over her head but not much else. She had no money and the conditions were bad. A family friend told her

that if the baby died because she couldn't look after him or feed him that she'd go to jail or that her husband's family would surely kill her. So with no money

or resources to fight for her son she let him go. Her husband took her son and he said that he would leave Kandil alone on the condition that she signed away all of her parental rights. Kandil did it. And so with nothing else left, she made her way to the big city of Islamabad and changed her name from Fuzia to Kandil and tried to make a life for herself. The thing is, we just can't stress enough how shameful it would have been for the family that Kandil had run away. She probably

feared for her life if she had gone home or if she didn't give them her son. So I think it's just about understanding Kandil's situation at this point. I think people are sometimes unfair on her that she gives her son away but like she just wouldn't have had an option. They would have come for her. They would have taken him regardless. She had nothing and she didn't have the support of anybody at this point. It may sound foolish to run off to the big city with dreams of becoming a model. But that's exactly what Kandil did. And unbelievably, she made it. And I think the important thing to note as well,

when you're thinking about who Kandil is as a person, she made it with no help, no contacts, no money. And many people, like in the media, whenever you just Google her, this is the first thing you will see again and again. Many people call her the Pakistani Kim Kardashian. But the thing is, to call her that, I think, is not an accurate thing because Kandil was truly self-made. She went to the city with nothing. She wasn't Paris Hilton's assistant.

No. And her father wasn't Robert Kardashian. Right. Yeah. Like millionaire. You know, she came from absolutely nothing. Now, Kandil first came to the public's attention in 2013 because she auditioned for Pakistani Idol. And although she wasn't chosen by the judges, she was a hit and her audition went viral. And you can watch this audition on YouTube if you want. It is quite entertaining. You can see from this audition that she's a natural born entertainer. I don't think, no shade, she's not particularly talented in any way. And I think that might be why people call her a Pakistani

Kim Kardashian. She's very good at social media, but she's not particularly talented. She sings in this really high-pitched voice. She can't do it. But I think she knows that she can't do it. But when she goes in, she teases the judges, she flirts with them. And then when they say no to her, she causes this huge scene. But I think she knows what she's doing because if you look closely when she's crying there are no tears and I swear you can see her smirking quite a lot of people do that you know oh yeah absolutely they know like you just need that hit you need that um you just need to get your face out there and like exactly with your personality if you cause a scene you're gonna get on tv and then people will recognize you from there on out like this

happened to me the other day i was watching this like i've maybe i'm a bit too old for this at 28 but i've recently become obsessed with youtubers i'm not proud of it but uh that's just something i'm doing at the moment it happens to the best so many of them i've i'm like i've seen you somewhere before and it'll be like they've done an American Idol audition and were awful. Or like something like that. It's just like literally just trying to get your face on TV. So, I mean, it seems like she's being pretty smart. What is it?

Not bad for a fool with no talent. You've just got to make it work. Got to work with what you have. And I think that's what she's doing. And it worked. Because after her audition, she started picking up work as a model. And even landing spots on like chat shows. The thing for Kandil at this point became, how do I keep up the interest?

How does she stop herself disappearing into nothing again? So she turned to social media. And in 2015, she posted a now infamous video called How I Looking. This video actually made it into Google's list of top 10 most searched videos in Pakistan. We'll post it. You can watch it. She's speaking in English. Her just being slightly provocative. And it's not that big a deal, but it blew up there because you have to think about the cultural stakes in Pakistan when she was posting things like this. Right. It's in such a conservative and oppressive country. Absolutely. And the thing is, with this video and with her previous audition, Kandil had hooked them.

But the thing is, just like everywhere in Pakistan, people get bored. So Kandil had no choice but to keep upping the ante. She had to keep pushing the boundaries of what was acceptable. And of course, this was going to come with a risk. But for Kandil, it was a risk she thought that was worth taking. In October 2015, when Imran Khan, who's now Pakistan's prime minister, got divorced for the second time, Kandil, I love this, Kandil started an online campaign to become his third wife. That is genius.

She's a genius. She's a genius. Viral marketing genius. Like this is, and she held press conferences, quote unquote, about it. And the nation's media absolutely lapped up and they splashed it all over every paper every news outlet night after night after night again to step it up a gear when this story fell out of headlines in march 2016 kandil offered to perform a strip tease for shahida fridi the then captain of the pakistani cricket team if pakistan beat beat India in the World 2020 Cup. They didn't.

They didn't. Oh, no. I remember that game. Oh, because India won. India won. But again, in a country like Pakistan, I cannot tell you how, like, jaw-droppingly shocking it would have been for this young woman to be like, to Shahida Freedy, I will strip, I will do a strip dance if you beat India. And also, she's a genius because India-Pakistan game, final of the World Cup 2020,

these are two nations that are obsessed with rivalry with each other and obsessed with cricket. She knows exactly what she's doing. Yeah, she does. I mean, I'm just blown away by it, honestly. We need to get on this shit, man. We need to think of something like this. Okay, I'll add it to the list of things how to go viral okay we can't sort of stress enough really

with this story you have to keep remembering that this is pakistan it's not a liberated sexual nation really at all in any way in this story in our episode today candela is a woman who's treading quite a fine line and i think we can definitely call her brave and we can call her sort of revolutionary and a genius in terms of marketing. But a lot of people call her naive. And I do think, you know, not to be harsh on her, none of this of what happens to her in this case is did she deserve it? But knowing what kind of a nation Pakistan is and how women are viewed there and how sexuality is viewed, you could say she is being slightly naive in thinking that this will that she'll get away with this forever in not in

that she should have been killed but that there wouldn't be a huge backlash but I guess when there was a backlash she just made videos about how there was a backlash and she was like I know you hate me but you're still watching there's no such thing as bad publicity like all of that like well to just sort of go even deeper and embarrassing or reveal my YouTube obsession. Even if they like all of these YouTubers get caught up in scandals and all of that, it's all completely constructed. Like they know exactly it's just getting their name out there on people talking about it. And like if they've done something outrageous, people are going to be talking. They don't care that you don't like what they've done.

They care that you are talking about them. And that is Kandeel's single business plan. That's it. So by 2016, with everything that she had done, Kandeel was a household name. But the thing that I love about her is that she never forgot her parents and she never forgot her family. When she had the money, she moved her parents from this tiny house that they live in, this tiny village in the middle of nowhere.

She moved them into this really nice house in Multan and she looked after them she paid for everything so she's doing a modeling and stuff and that's how she's paying the bills well she's doing modeling she's doing the social media she was getting like you know facebook ads stuff like that all of this stuff the chat shows everything that she was now getting she was earning good money so three years after she ran away from her marriage and the thing is if you're wondering how did her parents come back into her life because remember she'd run away well three years after she'd run away from her marriage she had actually reconnected with her parents and they had forgiven her and after this they were really close like we said she had been

visiting her parents when she was murdered and this bitch just so sad like when you watch the documentaries about this her elderly father is partially blind and disabled. But for years following his daughter's murder, he traveled over 120 kilometers across the state every time there were court proceedings because he was so adamant that justice be done. As we said, Kandil looked after her parents and they loved her. And this itself in Pakistan is challenging a lot of traditional norms. Because here's a woman, a sexually free, empowered, intelligent woman who was earning good

money and providing for her parents. She was single, she'd run away from her marriage, she'd left her baby behind and they had forgiven her. And like I said, the parents shocked the entire community when they didn't turn their back on Kandil because of what she'd done. That would have been the normal state of affairs in this situation. And today's story is about an honour killing. And if you want to know more about honour killings, head back and listen to our episode that we did, gosh, a few months ago, maybe now, on a girl named Shafilia Ahmed, which actually happened here in Britain. But yeah, today's story is about an honour killing. But if you think that this is a case in which a young woman was murdered

by her family because she shamed them, I don't think it is. We don't think it is. This was an honour killing, but it wasn't about Kandeel's family's honour that led to her murder. To fully understand Kandeel's murder, we need to go back to a comedy news chat show in April 2016 that was on Pakistani TV. On this show, Kandeel appeared alongside a popular and influential cleric called Mufti Abdul Kavi. You can find this footage very easily on YouTube. And even if you can't speak Urdu or understand anything that they're saying, you can see that they're teasing each other. It's quite playful. Kandeel is flirting with Kavi. And she's taking the piss out of him, really.

And she's obviously doing it on purpose and she's taking the piss out of him really and she's obviously doing it on purpose because she's the queen of controversy and in a place like pakistan like what is more what's going to grab people's attention more than this woman who like talks about sex all the time and openly talks about it flirting with a cleric on tv absolutely and when she's on tv she hasn't got her head covered she's got her hair like straightened out. She's got makeup on. This is the perfect like battle almost on Pakistani TV. This well-respected cleric goes up against the queen of controversy, Kandil. Like no wonder this news chat she wanted to have them on. Yeah, I bet their ratings are through the roof.

Oh, absolutely. But it's not like Kuvvi's like, he's not offended by it. It's not bothering him. He's playing up to it. He's clearly enjoying the attention from this pretty young woman. But Mufti Covey, despite being in his 50s, was something of a social media star himself. And it's quite clearly in this interview trying not to take the bait that Kandeel is throwing out there. But he wants to.

I think it's because he doesn't know how it's going to land yet right so I think he he's very like we say like influential cleric mufti actually means like like a holy like cleric man hello I would like one holy cleric man please that's it something like that um so his name is actually Abdul Kavi but everybody calls him mufti Kavi because that's like his title, you know, like father. Right, right, right. Peters or whatever. Whoever that is. Father Neil, that's my priest. What's up, Neil? That's it. Father Neil. Yeah, Mufti Kavi absolutely uses social media to push himself

because he is obsessed with fame. He's obsessed with like status. But I think he's holding back here because he doesn't know how it's going to land yet. And I think he's um holding back here because he doesn't know how it's going to land yet and I think he's trying to figure out let's see what happens here and then I'll figure out what my next step is. So what Kandeel does is she asks Covey what he thought of her offer to Shahida Freedy who's the cricketer and Covey jokes that maybe a striptease might also be a useful weapon in the effort to de-radicalize Islamic militants. Are they having jokes? I mean, I don't know what room that joke would land in.

But, I mean, he's making jokes. He's making jokes about militant Islam. But he's making them. But I suppose in Pakistan you're probably making quite a lot of jokes about militant Islam. Probably. Probably. That's what they're doing. That's what the flavor is on this news comedy chat show.

So maybe I'm just being a bit of a comedy prude by being like, just like a cartoon, like, just like pulling at my collar. So after this interview, despite sort of playing it down a little bit, Kavi did say that he would like to meet Kandil again when she was next in Karachi. And it's not clear who made this happen. Kandil claims that Kavi made many attempts to make it happen, but he claimed that she did, which is pretty classic.

But this is what we do know. We know that in June 2016, Kandil released a series of pictures and videos of her and Kavi that went viral and set off a series of events that led to her murder. So the two met in a hotel room in Karachi. Kandil was the queen of social media. So from their meeting, she obviously took a whole bunch of selfies and videos of her and the Mufti. She's flirting with him in some of the videos. She's wearing his, like he has like this famous hat that he always wears. And in one of the videos and in the photos she's wearing the hat and she's got his she's got her arm around him I know to everybody else this is just gonna be like so but like I cannot stress like she's got a little like oh and she's doing like the little like Betty Boop

like oh with her finger on her chin and she's got her arm around him. She's wearing his hat. He looks a bit disheveled. Like it looks, it isn't, but it looks like a post-sex photo or something. Or like a flirty photo. And when she posted these pictures, it blew up in Pakistan. Mufti and Kandil were all over the news and it was a national scandal. Most people in Pakistan already thought that Kandil was crossing the line in terms of what was acceptable for a woman to do, and now there was this. After the story came out, there were huge differences in the versions that Kandil and Kuvvi told. Kandil said that the meeting lasted a long time, and that they were alone for the majority of it. Kuvvi, however, claims that it

didn't last long, and that they were only alone for a few minutes, and that's when the pictures had been taken. When asked why Kandil was wearing his trademark hat in the pictures, this is perfect, Kuvvi says that she was wearing it because she needed to cover her head for prayer and she didn't have a scarf. Yeah, right. Like, that seems...

No, sorry. That seems like a lie. Yeah. You can just see her going in, playfully taking off his head and putting it on. And it's a lot. Kandil said that when she went to meet him, after he had repeatedly asked her, people asked her why she went. Because she says that he was the one chasing her.

She said, quote, I party a lot. I thought it would be beneficial for me to spend some time with someone who was religious. And the thing is, this is what I think added fuel to the flames of the controversy that came after these selfies and these videos were posted. Because the pair met during the month of Ramadan to break fast together. But the thing is, if you don't know anything about Ramadan, like from what I've understood of it and what i know of it you're fasting during the day from sun up till sundown you can't even drink water you can't have sex you can't smoke cigarettes there are so many things you cannot do it's not just food and in the videos you hear mufti kavi asking kandil which cigarette she wants right okay when i worked in restaurants and stuff we had um

one of the chefs was this enormous gambian man called malik he was literally he was about seven six foot nine and very devout muslim and during ramadan obviously he's in the kitchen he's not eating he's massive he would faint all the time so like just like this enormous man just like in the middle of service but then you know what can you do you know But what can you do? Yeah. What can you do? We just had like a Malik clearance area.

It was like nobody go anywhere near him in case he faints and knocks you out. Oh, my God. But yeah, these two don't seem to really be sticking to it because, yeah, like I said, Kuvvi's asking her which cigarette she wants. And then she's filming this and then she walks away from him. She's like opening up curtains with the phone still in her hand filming. She's obviously trying to get the best light for what she is prepping for a photo shoot here. Right.

You hear Kavi say from the background something about not posting these pictures or this video. And Kandil says, oh, don't worry, I won't post any of this online. And then she does. And the thing is, you can say that, you know, as Kandil says, her motive was that she wanted to maybe spend some time with someone who was religious. Maybe it would be a good influence on her. Like she says, she liked to party a lot.

I don't believe her. She knew what she was doing. I think she was there for controversy and she got it. Thing is, you could say that maybe Mufti Qavi had a similar motive at first because he had form for creating ties with celebrities, especially young

women who were seen as quote-unquote wild and changing them into pious believers. He claims to have been pivotal in the Islamic reformation of Pakistani movie star Veena Malik and just like Kandil, he and Veena had been on a TV chat show together, they'd gotten into it she was like really you know super like kandil kind of and then she changed she completely became really pious and really like devout and all of this and he said it was because of time she spent with him you know he's like you know i don't know what i want to call him like the witch finder general but that's not what i mean he means like he wants to go out like converting these women and like saving yeah there's like, you know, I don't know what I want to call him like the witch finder general, but that's not what I mean. He means like he wants to go out like converting these women and like saving these like wayward sirens. Exactly. And I think they're liberated, but actually they just don't know.

Exactly. And if you can convert someone like Kandil, imagine what that says to the rest of the population. About how powerful you are at converting. Exactly. Yeah. Kandil claimed that not only is Kuvvi smoking and drinking Coca-Cola during Ramadan, which he absolutely should not be doing as a holy man, Kandil claimed that he actually tried to kiss her, hug her, and also be intimate with her. And those are her words. She gave an interview in which she stated,

quote, you know, in showbiz, girls are sometimes bold and we're okay with it. I was laughing and telling him not to do it. He stopped and then he said, I know you can't trap a girl in the first meeting. As our relationship develops, we will become more open with each other. So it doesn't sound like it's his first rodeo, does it? And then Kandeel continued that he couldn't control his emotions. He was very emotional and made many attempts to hug and kiss me. The sofa I was sitting on, he sat on it and he tried to make out with me. Then he would stop when I asked him to stop and then he'd try again. Then he started talking about romance. He told me that he knows how to seduce a woman and said,

you do it like this, you have to start from the ear and then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I thought, wow, Mufti Sahib knows how to romance whenever I hear that last line I just like hear it in her voice and in her accent because even when she's telling this she tells it in such a like matter-of-fact way should I try my best Asian accent oh my god please do it you've never done it before okay please please please if you're gonna do it this is the line to do it okay okay give me a sec my God. Please take like that all the time. I'm going to try. I think I know. I think I got it as close. It has a bit softer. It's more like, and I thought, Areva, Mufti Sahib knows how to romance. There you go. That's the best I could

get it. Good. There you go. You're welcome, everyone. So obviously, even though Cerise has cracked out her best Pan-Asian accent, could be denies that any of this ever happened. Obviously, of course, he's going to deny it. Of course. But isn't it like shockingly, alarmingly, disturbingly the same as like all of the Hollywood casting couch stuff? Do you know what? I was just thinking that.

I was like, it's just completely pervasive in every culture. Absolutely. And we have to discuss again, if it wasn't clear by this point just how conservative a country pakistan is it is a male-dominated patriarchal hyper-religious country and now you have this woman coming forward and making these claims about one of the most well-respected clergymen in the country and these pictures and videos and claims by Kandil caused Mufti Qavi to lose his prestigious position on Pakistan's religious council.

And just a few weeks later, Kandil was dead. And right before she was murdered, Kandil actually predicted her own death at a press conference in Pakistan, where she was begging the police for more protection. And she told the press how scared she was because of the threats that she'd been receiving. But Kandil wasn't given any protection by the police and the media who she'd always needed to boost her grew in their obsession. But instead of propelling her

star status as it had once done, this time it sealed her fate. If you remember at the start of the episode we said that Kandil's real name was Fauzia, Kandil Baloch had just been a made-up stage name and despite her being a household name across Pakistan, no one really knew Kandil's real name was Fauzia. Kandil Baloch had just been a made-up stage name. And despite her being a household name across Pakistan, no one really knew Kandil. Not where she was really from, or what her real name was, or who she'd been. No one knew about her first failed marriage or her son, nothing. But in the video she shot with Kavi, Kandil made a huge mistake. She revealed that she was from the area around Multan and the media went for it. There was, the only way you can describe it

was a media frenzy around the scandal when the videos came out. They wanted to know everything. So a man called Mubashir Luckman, who's a high profile political talk show host and he ran the most watched show in Pakistan at the time. He got an exclusive with Kandeel and Covey after the photos went viral. And it was after all the story of the day. Everybody wanted Pakistan at the time. He got an exclusive with Kandeel and Covey after the photos went viral.

And it was, after all, the story of the day. Everybody wanted a piece of it. And Luckman said that one of them was lying and he was going to be the one to get to the bottom of which one it was. So was Kandeel telling the truth when she said that Covey had harassed her? While Kandeel was involved with this interview and able to control the narrative to some extent, the rest of the media was a whole other situation. A newspaper wanted

to uncover her true identity and they managed to get hold of her passport and unbelievably, they published it. Suddenly, the entire country knew who Kandil really was and this absolutely played a role in her murder. In an interview with the journalist who published the passport he defends his decision he says quote she was the first woman around here to be so provocative we wanted to know who she was and yes we printed her passport we didn't expect such a reaction I wish now I hadn't done it but these models also need to think how much can can society take? What kind of society do we live in? And are people ready to accept us? Do they have the mindset? So basically, what he's saying

is, I shouldn't have done it, but she did deserve it. She had it coming. She should have known. Women like her have it coming. That's what he's saying. Exactly. Now, when you look into this case, you see a lot of people on the internet straight up hating Ankandil for the things that she posted. That's to be expected. But you also find a lot of people saying things like, I didn't like what she posted, but she didn't deserve to die. Well, duh.

But the thing is, I just want us to take a second to clarify what Kandil was actually posting. So, get this. The Ontario Liberals elected Bonnie Crombie as their new leader. Bonnie who? I just sent you her profile. Her first act as leader, asking donors for a million bucks for her salary. That's excessive. She's a big carbon tax supporter. Oh yeah.

Check out her record as mayor. Oh, get out of here. She even increased taxes in this economy. Yeah, higher taxes, carbon taxes. She sounds expensive. Bonnie Crombie and the Ontario Liberals. They just don't get it. That'll cost you. A message from the Ontario PC Party. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to light some of the

biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes, and in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all

episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial today. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudine Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On The Media.

To listen, subscribe to On The Media wherever you get your podcasts. And yes, even if she was just posting sexy, salacious content, it wouldn't matter. She was a young woman with few opportunities who took charge of her life and made a name for herself, along with enough money to look after her entire family. But the thing is, Kandil was doing more, far more, than just posting saucy and provocative videos. She didn't ever call herself a feminist at the start, and not for a long time actually. I think, to be honest, she had bigger worries on her mind, like how to survive. But the thing is, she became an unlikely beacon for progressive thinking and women's rights in Pakistan. She avoided it at first, but her politics started to become more and more apparent in her online activity

as she started to talk about rights, her agency, and feminism. She posted, quote, I'm trying to change the typical orthodox mindset of people who don't want to come out of their shells of false beliefs and old practices. And in numerous posts, she spoke out for women who, like her, had experienced forced marriage and domestic violence. She also tweeted her support for Malala, who, if you'll remember, was the young girl who was shot in Pakistan by the Taliban for daring to go to school. After her passport was published, the media descended on her family's house. 25 days after her meeting with Mufti Qavi in that hotel room, Kandil was dead. On the 15th of July,

Kandil was drugged and strangled by her brother Wasim at her parents' house that she was paying for. Within hours, Wasim had been arrested and had confessed to the murder in front of a news conference on live TV. Wasim showed little emotion in the clip of his confession and he simply says, quote, I am proud of what I did. I drugged her first, then I killed her. Girls are born to stay at home and follow traditions. My sister never did that. I am a drug addict, but I was in my senses when I murdered her and I accept it with pride. Now everybody will remember So this narrative is very much like he's saying he was an embarrassment to the family and once they printed the passport and they knew that she belonged to us, we couldn't have it and she had to go.

If we go with this sort of arm of the story, if we go with his narrative, if we believe what he's saying, that's the reason why. And if you're wondering, why did Waseem confess live on TV? Because even if we go with this narrative that that's why he did it, why on earth would he confess to it? What was he thinking? Well, at the time in Pakistan, the law stated that in murder cases, if the victim's family forgave the killer, the case would be thrown out of court. So obviously we don't need to spell out the massive issues surrounding something like this, a law like this, because it's estimated that around a thousand women are killed each year in these so-called honor killings in Pakistan. Imagine

if you can kill your sister or your wife or your daughter and then simply ask for forgiveness because you're asking for forgiveness from your own family. So clearly using this legal loophole, Waseem was counting on his family, also being Kandil's family, forgiving him so that he could escape punishment. But the thing is, would it work? Would Kandil's family forgive their son or pursue justice for Kandil and risk losing their son Wasim? I think obviously there's so many incredibly serious problems with a law like that. But if you're asking a family to forgive a person for murdering one of your own, aren't killings in Pakistan was this idea of, well, if your family can be okay with it, if the family of the victim can be okay with it, which is obviously also your family, then fair dues. And the problem is that the mentality, as we talked about in the Shafili Ahmed case, in a lot of cases, is that they had it coming. They were bringing shame to the family. What did they, they were given warnings. They knew. Yeah, what did they think was going to happen if they kept carrying on like that, etc. They were brought up knowing that that kind of behavior isn't acceptable. So if they still do it, and then somebody kills them, then what did they expect

to happen? That's the vibe and the mentality. But the thing is, this law wasn't even just in terms of honor killings, it's any killings. Like you kill somebody and then if the family or the victim forgives you, you can get away with it, apparently. Kandil and Waseem's family's initial decision shocked the nation. They were so used to seeing families involved with honour killings just closing ranks to protect the killer. But Kandil's father said this about his son. I will not talk to him. I will not see him. If he comes here, I will send him away. He can stay in jail and think about why he And inshallah means like God willing. In a documentary that we watched on this case, a female journalist went to visit Mufti Qavi in September 2016 to ask him about Kandil. This was after Wasim's arrest, but before his own, so clearly at this point he didn't feel

concerned about making threatening statements. And he says on camera, quote, anyone who wants to make allegations against the clergy, they should remember what happened to Kandil. Now finally, in October 2017, so a year and a half after Kandil's murder, Mufti Qavi was finally arrested. And this caused, obviously, another huge scandal in Pakistan. At first, the court rejected his bail. And in response, Qavi escaped and fled.

He was, however, caught, re-arrested and returned to court. And when he was returned, he does the weirdest thing. He like has a lie detector test, but during the lie detector test, he pretends to have a heart attack. And after all of this crazy, this time he was unbelievably granted bail. And it seems so odd to grant bail to a man who was already fled once. But the thing is, he was a very powerful and very influential man. And it's important that we don't underestimate the reach of corruption in such cases and to this day Mufti Qavi has always denied being involved with the killing of Kandil Baloch. In total however six men were arrested by police

and six men were arrested by police after Wasim's confession so it's not like it was a cut and shut case even for them. So the people who were arrested were Wasim and another brother of hers called Aslam and a man named Haq Nawaz and a man named Zafar Nawaz and Abdul Basit. These men were all Kandil's cousins. And of course, finally, we have Mufti Qavi. And it wasn't until just earlier this year in 2019 that another one of Kandil's brothers calledif, was arrested by police. It took Pakistani police so long to arrest him because he was actually living in Saudi Arabia. He was in regular contact with his brother Wasim, the prime suspect, given his confession.

And the evidence found in the forensic report of Wasim's mobile reportedly suggests that Arif had urged Wasim to kill their sister Kandil. But all of those arrests, or anyone who's suspected of being involved with the murder of Kandil, it's only Wasim who remains in jail. The rest have all been granted bail and legal proceedings are at a standstill. The issue is that Kandil's parents have now had a change of heart and now they say that they believe their sons are innocent and that it was Mufti Kavi and he had framed Wasim. It doesn't seem like he has really to me. For me I think it's reasonably clear like Wasim did kill her. I don't know who made him do it. This is the thing. I think it's a bit confusing because it's like

Kandil's mum says that Wasim's confession was coerced and that the police forced him to say what he did. But did Covey maybe manipulate Wasim into killing his sister? Maybe Wasim felt rage towards Kandil because remember, she was single-handedly saving her family and providing for them. And like he says, I think Wasim is kind of like the black sheep of the family. He's not particularly doing well, not to be like, obviously, if you're addicted to drugs, you're a waste of space. Obviously, I'm not saying that, but he admits he's a drug addict like i don't think he's got a great life going on and i don't think he's particularly like doing anybody any help with his family but she is saving everybody

she's looking after her parents which in a role in a family like this should have fallen to the brothers to do you know right exactly and in the olden days and by the olden days, we mean pre-October 2017, the family saying that Waseem was innocent would have been enough for him to get out of jail. Exactly. Because that's literally all they needed. But the law is different now. Who knows exactly what happens here. I think the conclusion of this will be that we're not 100% sure, but Waseem does confess to it. And it does seem like if anybody was going to be in the house and actually do it, it makes sense that it was him. But why did he really do it? I think that's the confusion. And the thing is, to come back to the legal loophole that we were talking about, if a family forgives the killer of their relative, that the killer can just, you know, get away with it, basically. But the thing is, ironically, following Kandil's death, the Pakistani government actually changed the law and it became known as Kandil's Law. And this now states that in cases of honour killings, families will not be able to choose to forgive a killer. The state will now

pursue justice regardless. But despite the introduction of this law and the attempt to close the legal loophole allowing thousands of killers to walk free, it is yet to be used in a single case, including that of Kandil's, the case that actually killers to walk free. It is yet to be used in a single case, including that of Candil's, the case that actually led to its conception. So, I don't know, what do we think? Was Wasim really trying to save his family's honour? My issue with that is, he's like, oh, we had to save our family from what she'd been doing for however many years. But like, exactly. She'd been doing it for years. That's what I was just going to say. gonna say i think like obviously her passport being published and the entirety of pakistan

finding out where she's from didn't i didn't do her any favors but surely the people in the village must have known already that that's that she was their daughter and that they moved into that big house because you know so i don't think it was top secret i don't think it was national news but i don't think nobody knew i agree with you because the family always say that they did have TVs in the village and that Kandil would always message them when she was going to be on a TV show or on a drama or like a series or whatever and they would watch it and so the people in the village knew who she was and what she was doing so they really tried to make it seem like Waseem was just pushed to the edge and he snapped

because of all the ridicule in the village i don't buy it and i feel like me either i feel like also was seen just seems like he's got more fucking pressing shit to be worrying about if anything yeah i feel like he would have been hitting her up for money why would you kill the golden goose another excellent point why would he why would he get rid of his income stream because she i know she would have probably given him money if he'd have asked. So don't get it. So the other option is that, was it Mufti Qavi? He was, after all, the one that lost the most from Kandil's posts.

Yes, the family had been outed after the passport was released, but Mufti Qavi had lost his respect, even his place on two prestigious religious councils. Yeah, I think he's got so much, he's just got more skin in the game than wasim does absolutely absolutely i don't know i don't know what exactly happened here maybe maybe it was wasim because it and also mufti kavi is a reasonably powerful man very powerful man especially i mean yes he's had like he's had to step down from the religious councils and stuff but he was there for a long time like wasim would definitely know who he is definitely so he probably would have been quite easily coerced especially if you know he's he's a drug addict he's probably not um thinking

the most clearly like tip-top hell and i also think that in a society like this that um mufti kavi would have been able to paint himself as the victim so even if he'd lost respect on the like national stage, the people that he would have been influential with, he could have easily been like, look, she was just a whore. She came to that hotel room. She made all those videos. I was innocent. She posted them all to make me look bad. And now she's ruined my life. Yes, he lost respect. He lost his place on that religious council. But I think that was more because of optics. I think he would have been able to manipulate the people he needed to,

to make himself look like a victim, to get what he needed to be done, done. So did Kavi instigate the killing? Maybe he paid Waseem to do it and telling that Waseem would be fined because as long as his parents forgave him and then he would go free. I think that probably yes. Like I think he'd be like, you have to do it. She deserves it. it she's embarrassed me and also you're not even going to go to prison for it because of this loophole in the law exactly maybe he even gave him some money who knows you know this way both of their problems were solved was seen would go free and covey could use his power and influence to save himself and i don't know for sure what happened no one can say but what we do know is that over three years later no one has been convicted of

Kandil's murder, despite multiple arrests and obviously the confession. But despite little progress in the courts, Kandil's murder has made a huge impact in Pakistan, as it led to widespread protests and a social awakening. Three years later, at any protest that erupts in the nation, you are bound to see women in the crowd wearing kandil masks. And while the law change in the publicity hasn't really seemed to make things better yet, more women than ever before are reporting abuse. But what happens now? And that's the thing. It feels like because there was no resolution in this case, it makes it hard for women to feel like anything will happen if they press charges or they pursue something. So even if they are now more likely to go to a shelter or a charity or the police to make a report of abuse, they still lack the faith that anything will come of it.

But many women's rights activists in Pakistan hail Kandil for turning the tide, saying that oppression can only be sustained as long as we are ready to tolerate it. And actually, and I think this is really, really nice, the first Violence Against Women Center in that oppression can only be sustained as long as we are ready to tolerate it and actually and i think this is really really nice the first violence against women's center in pakistan was opened in 2017 in kandil's hometown of multan in harana and staggeringly in the first seven months of opening they faced two and a half thousand reports of abuse of women coming forward to them i think the worst thing in it for me is like, you killed her because you were embarrassed,

because she embarrassed you. She didn't steal your house. She didn't push your mum down the stairs. She just made you feel a bit embarrassed about something that you were already doing. And that's it. And she died for that. And that's seen as a good enough reason here.

Kundeel's legacy lives on in the way that women and other marginalised groups in Pakistan are reclaiming online spaces, challenging the status quo and shattering patriarchal norms. Kandeel established how you can use online spaces strategically and for your own benefit, but also for empowerment. And on the flip side, online spaces are also becoming more dangerous. Men are using it to control, intimidate and blackmail women, either with real images they shared or doctored photos and videos. We don't know exactly what happened, but we'll leave you with a post that Kandil shared two days before her death. Quote, as women, we must stand up for ourselves. As women, we must stand up for each other. As

women, we must stand up for justice. And I think that these words and the conviction and the sense of community that they have inspired in other women across Pakistan may form Kandil's most powerful legacy yet, just because her death didn't ultimately lead to a massive upheaval, either socially or legally. But I'll take that, if nothing else, for now. It's sad. And this is the thing with Kandil's case.

It's like it's like um in places like this where or in anywhere not even just places like this anywhere in the world like if you're a marginalized group or a woman and you are demanding rights or change whether socially or legally a lot of places like this she she's going to have limited success if she takes to the streets as a woman as a single woman one woman her own, she was able to affect such change and make people take notice of her by doing what she did online. But she had to push the boundary so far in order to even start a conversation around anything like this. But the thing is, by doing that, she put herself directly in harm's way. And this is the thing, anyone who wants to impact

change in places like this, they're going to put themselves directly in the line of fire, sadly. It's just so sad, like embarrassment, like what a pathetic feeling to kill someone over. You know, she's sadly not the first woman or the only woman, or sadly, she won't be the last woman. But we thought it was an interesting story. So we hope you've enjoyed it. And we'll definitely post some of Kandil's videos and things like that. She's just so fiery. And she goes on to these talk shows in such a male-dominated country.

And she shouts them down. And not in an aggressive, like, I'm not listening to you way. In a I'm standing up for what I'm saying because you're not listening to me way. And she's remarkable. She was remarkable, I guess. So yeah, thanks for listening. As usual, you can buy your tour tickets to come see us. The link is in the description of the episode. You can also follow

us on all the social medias at Red Handed The Pod. And if you would like to, you can also come over to patreon.com slash redhanded and help support the show there. And here are some people who have done that. So gosh, again, so many. We could do it. You could do it. Thank you, Laurie Lavelle, Jem Evans, Ellen Person, Lisa Williams, Fanny Gomadisdota. You're good at these. Godmans.

Kate Schmidt, Christina, Katie Donahue, Fabiola Vasquez, Ellie Latouche, Brittany, DJ Kento, Guinevere McGillick. Genevieve. Sorry, let me just go get Lance a lot. Fucking hell. Genevieve McGillick. Actually, as I read that, though, I thought of that show You on Netflix, because isn't her name Guinevere in that? I don't know.

I haven't watched it. I have not. If you want to waste like a weekend, I'd recommend it. The acting is super hammy, but you know, whatever. Just don't pay too much attention to that. I'll take it. Chris Turner, Peter Winterburn, Elaine Hunt, Eva, Mary Wynn, Dee McVeigh, Rachel Alice Jones, Holly Allen, CJ, Melissa Neen, Kate Ferreira. Okay, you go.

Jake and Kumari Skeens. Oh, God, there was someone else who messaged me that I was supposed to say and I haven't done it. I'm sorry, I'll do it next week. Shannon Buckman, Stephanie Spinks, Madeline Slalinski. Madeline is Magdal kayla magdalene magdalene what like the cake oh delicious um kayla malcolm tess rovery nick s rebecca abby duncan darian dorsey chantelle ulaga ha um jeanette rinnard nancy lee, Sarah Mahler, Rebecca Brown, Vivian...

Ooh, Vivian. Collie Didchuck, Nitzuka... No, too hard. Madge. Sorry. Katie Wood, Jenna, Tom Carson, Christine West, Derica Gabriel, Lexi V, Maggie, Alison Tyler, Brandy Hamada, Ali Kirby, Liz Rasper, Sabrina Flores, Rachel Williams,

Kelly Palacio, Coppano Gelman, Coppano Gelman, Ros Rosmorse, I don't know why I couldn't say that. Zamsun.com. Zoe, Tanya Wesley, Shelby Chase. Thank you very much guys for your money. Thank you so much. That was great. All of you, you're great.

Yeah, well done. That was great. Top humans. So yeah, thanks guys for listening and we'll see you next week. See you next week. Bye tour tickets. Bye. Bye. Bye.

You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either, until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows,

uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness. And inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made,

a seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Laney Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately

wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.