RedHanded - Episode 108 - Jeremy Forrest: Runaway Teacher

Episode Date: August 22, 2019

It’s “Lolita” on the English Rivera this week as the girls follow the story of a 30 year old Maths teacher, Jeremy Forrest, and his obsession with a 15 year old student - Gemma Grant*. ...Their relationship escalated from casual conversations to constant messaging, to kissing to a full blow sexual affair; and soon the whole world knew. In 2012, taking a final stab at being together, the pair ran off to France sparking an international manhunt which left both of their lives in tatters. *Name changed Sources: https://www.cosmopolitan.com/uk/reports/a9949676/schoolgirl-flees-to-france-with-teacher-2017-update/ https://youtu.be/rlqlUWB1RpM https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/gemma-grant-jeremy-forrest-school-girl-teacher-relationship-france-arrest-damaged-a7769731.html   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Saruti.
Starting point is 00:00:39 I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed. Let's kick off today, shall we? Let's do it. We are going back to 2012 today. We're staying in England. We're staying in the lovely Eastbourne area where I went quite recently, if you'll remember. It's a very strange place, but very naturally beautiful. Yeah, kind of strange. You're not welcome there anymore.
Starting point is 00:01:01 I know. Please don't do that. I had quite a nice time on the Our English Riviera. It was lovely. But yeah, we're going back to 2012 when an international manhunt was launched for 30-year-old maths teacher Jeremy Forrest from Bishop Bell's C of E school in Eastbourne. When he ran off to France with his 15-year-old student. We aren't going to name the girl who was involved in this because she was a child when all of this happened. Her name is out there obviously because there was loads of appeals for her to come home etc but basically in all of the reports since she uses the alias Gemma Grant.
Starting point is 00:01:36 Just to be fair that's what we're going to call her too. The two had met Gemma and Jeremy in September 2011 when Jeremy became Gemma's maths teacher when she started Year 9. And for our international listeners, at the start of Year 9, Gemma would have been 13 years old. 13 years old. Year 9's a bit of a funny one. I think, like, Year 9 is when you start to think that you know a bit. Do you know what I mean?
Starting point is 00:01:59 You're not... Yeah. You're not juniors anymore. You're kind of like, oh, no, I'm a bit... I've got this sorted. I've shucked out school now definitely there are two years beneath you now year seven and year eight you feel like you're not the sort of underdogs anymore but you still don't know shit because they're still like four years ahead of you as well in my school when you got to year nine you were allowed to start wearing skin colored tights that was the thing see we didn't really have that kind of um
Starting point is 00:02:26 stringent policy I also fucking hated year nine the worst year was the worst year for me I hated it I don't think I remember year nine sticking out as particularly bad but I just fucking hated all of it oh yeah I mean there's that too so but yeah the key point is like 13. Get that into your minds. She's 13 years old. And from the start young teacher at school. He was really well liked and students described him as being not a normal teacher. He had banter and he was a musician. Students would go to his website to see his musical alter ego, Jeremy Eyre. This tells me that he told the kids about this. You're not just going to find it by accident. Actually, having said that, there was a maths teacher at my school called Mr. White who is on YouTube solving Rubik's Cubes really fast.
Starting point is 00:03:31 And we all found that. That's adorable. I love that. But like, how innocent is that? That's so innocent. And we thought it would be like, oh, Mr. White solves like blah, blah, blah. And it's actually just like Rubik's Cube man. That's his alias.
Starting point is 00:03:42 Everyone needs an alter ego. Exactly. He absolutely loves this attention he's directing teenagers to his Jeremy Eyre music site. And amongst these teenagers, they thought he was pretty cool. And that probably made him feel quite cool as well. And he would even bring his guitar into school on school days just before the holidays to play for the kids. I know. I mean, when you listen to his music, he's like a singer-songwriter, Jeremy Eyre, and he played some of the clubs around Eastbourne and some of the pubs and things in his dual life
Starting point is 00:04:18 as a maths teacher and Jeremy Eyre. But he's like, I don't know how to explain he's like kind of that drolling like I've got a guitar I'm doing some not quite emo but like folksy I don't even need to hear any of his music to just know exactly exactly what it is and he comes in he's like those people when you're like staying in a hostel or something when they pull out a guitar and you're like oh my god how do I escape this room without having to just start screaming and he'd do it at school because if he did that in a grown-up situation they would be like please fuck off Jeremy Jesus Christ exactly that's exactly that's the whole fucking theme of this entire episode summing up Jeremy absolutely one of those guys
Starting point is 00:05:01 who hangs out with kids way younger than them to feel like the big man like the one with the most like life experience the one that's had the most sex the one that's been to the most different countries the one that's eaten lobster the most it's like really petty stuff like taking the most drugs yeah yeah yeah oh one time like i just i smoked some weed and i just whited everywhere and it was so embarrassing oh my god but i was fine though i was totally fine i just went in sick and then I just went back to the party. We've all met them. Yeah, we're joking. But like this screams to a void in his confidence as an adult.
Starting point is 00:05:33 And it was so huge that he needed validation from children. That's exactly it. Now in an interview with Gemma, and this is an interview that she gave years later with Cosmo, and we'll leave the link in the episode description so you can have a full read of it because it is pretty much the only interview I can find that is totally in her words that's not just been sort of guessed at or full of assumptions made by the journalist or whatever. So she explains in this article that
Starting point is 00:06:01 she had had a crush on Jeremy for a while, but it wasn't until a school trip to LA in February 2012 that they had first got close. At this point now Gemma is 14 years old. And I don't think that's weird. I feel like everyone had a crush on at least one teacher at school. I had a crush on like three. Like it's so normal. Obviously it gets very not normal as we go on, but this is, I feel like this is pretty usual for a 14 year old girl to have a crush on her maths teacher who like actively plays the guitar at school. Even if you extrapolate it out of like teacher, student environment, even as you get older, like anybody who's in a position of power over you, there is something that you could potentially be attracted to them because of that reason alone, you know? And it's just a power play dynamic that you'll see played out across the entire spectrum of ages. I go to an aerobics class now. I don't
Starting point is 00:06:51 think my aerobics instructor is that attractive, but he's very charismatic and he yells at me a lot and I think I fancy him. And I just feel like it's not, if I saw him on the street, I absolutely wouldn't. But I think it's just this power that he has over the class, you know? That's so funny. But I'm not, absolutely what we're not doing is belittling what happens in this case. What we're saying is at this point, when they go on this school trip together for the first time, Gemma starts to realise that she really has this crush on him and she tries to get close to him. Also, can we just discuss this school going on year nine trips to LA? Yeah, it was battlefields or nothing at my school.
Starting point is 00:07:30 Yeah. France and Belgium. We went to Hastings, France for the millionth time. And in year nine as well. Legoland. Legoland. We went to Alton Towers. Oh, okay.
Starting point is 00:07:40 We either went to Woburn Safari Park or Legoland. We went to Woburn Safari Park a couple of times. What's the other one? Another one. I've forgotten. Anyway, we went to the zoo a lot. I mean, we went to theme parks. And you had the obligatory trip to Hastings for 10.66.
Starting point is 00:07:57 Blah, blah, blah. Great. Anyway, on this trip, Gemma and Jeremy discovered that they apparently had a lot in common. Oh, give it a rest. Exactly. I'm finding it really hard to understand what a 30-year-old could really have in common with a 15-year-old. Unless you are emotionally fucking crippled. Yeah. Well, I mean, evidently he is. Evidently he is, yep.
Starting point is 00:08:17 But yeah, apparently they like the same bands and would even compare their favourite Nirvana lyrics. I just can't cope with this. I've never wanted to vomit so much in my life. Yeah, it's like when you're that age and you think, oh my God, he's the perfect guy for me because he likes the same bands I like or he likes the same TV shows I like or he likes this. And then you get to our age and you're like,
Starting point is 00:08:39 are you just remotely able to have a conversation? Can you just not? Do you actively not put me down in public exactly and I think you just as you get older you do realize like there's deeper things you need to look for like shared values and goals and things like that but they're just like oh my god he likes the same bands as me he's the one and I can get it from from Jeremy's perspective like she's 14 like she's allowed to be a dick. What's Jeremy's excuse for being quite such a bellend? I really don't understand.
Starting point is 00:09:08 Exactly. He's older than us. What is his problem? So this trip to Los Angeles solidified in Gemma's mind that Jeremy Forrest was one cool guy. He had tattoos as well. I would have been impressed by that at 14. I would have been impressed by tattoos. I would have been impressed by that at 14. I would have been impressed by tattoos. I would have been impressed by playing pubs, especially if that person was showing interest
Starting point is 00:09:29 in me and they were 30 years old. It completely makes sense why she's drawn into this. And at this point, I am sure that Jeremy absolutely would have known that here was a young girl with a rapidly developing crush. But instead of feeling awkward or cringed out by it and trying to put up the appropriate boundaries, he reveled in it. On the flight home, Gemma sat next to Jeremy and he held her hand to help with her fear of flying. After this trip, Gemma was set. She had a full-blown crush on her teacher.
Starting point is 00:09:59 Back in class, Gemma said that she could feel the way that Jeremy looked at her, in a, quote, nice way and in a loving way. And at this point in those maths lessons Gemma started to pay a lot more attention and this tipped off her friends that something was up because they were like you seem a lot more interested in maths than you've ever been before. So she confessed to her two best friends that she had a crush on Jeremy and I don't think at this stage that would have been particularly alarming to her friends or to anybody. Like Hannah said, it's totally normal to have crushes on teachers. Like kind of celebrity crushes, I guess. It's
Starting point is 00:10:34 just that position of power and that safe distance. You can almost fancy them without any real risk of getting hurt. Or you can try out what it feels like to fancy somebody without it ever going to the point that you might get your feelings completely destroyed you know oh definitely but this is only the case if they are never reciprocated or if it never goes further but as we know in this case it did and ultimately it wouldn't end well for either of them. After the LA trip, Gemma followed Jeremy on Twitter, and at first he didn't respond, which would be the right thing to do, Jeremy. So Gemma, keen for more time with him,
Starting point is 00:11:13 started forgetting things in his room so that she'd have to return during breaks in the hopes of catching him alone. But by the spring of 2012, the two had still only spoken during school hours. Until one day, Jeremy told Gemma off for her nail polish in school, and Gemma took it badly. And you can imagine this, she's trying to get on his level, and maybe the nail polish was even an attempt to make herself look older.
Starting point is 00:11:38 And then he tells her off in front of the whole class. She was definitely hurt and humiliated and was in a massive sulk in class. That night, Jeremy followed her back on Twitter, and then he private messaged her saying, sorry about the nail varnish. I didn't want to upset you. And this obviously undid any hurt from the telling off, as I can only imagine the excitement that Gemma would have felt. And to make this clear, we're not romanticising this or anything that happens in this story. We're just trying to put ourselves in Gemma's shoes. And throughout this case, across this clear, we're not romanticising this or anything that happens in this story. We're just trying to put ourselves in Gemma's shoes. And throughout this case, across this story,
Starting point is 00:12:09 the blame lies solely with Jeremy Forrest. There's absolutely no doubt about that. He was the adult in this situation. He was the one in the position of power. And this is the first time, I think, with the whole Twitter message following the nail polish thing, that we really start to see how needy he is for her attention, even as a child in that Cosmo article which we said we'll post please do have a read of it she says you know she started to sort of sulk and ignore him and when he gave her
Starting point is 00:12:34 instructions in class she ignored him she was pissed off that he had told her off and he's clearly gone home and can't stop thinking about it and he's like fuck this girl was obsessed with me and I've ruined it I better message her and pull her back in that's how needy he is for this it blows my mind had Jeremy not done this I truly believe nothing that happens next would have this is the moment where he goes too far I mean obviously there's the lead up to it but this is the point where he should have stopped. And it's even like, you know, in Lolita, which is basically exactly the same story, there's like a quote from the book where he says,
Starting point is 00:13:10 you know, I regret sleeping with her, but I don't regret anything I did next. This is basically like British Lolita. But to get the full story, we need to discuss how Gemma's thinking in all of these situations. She's not old enough to consent, no child is, but she was old enough to fancy someone
Starting point is 00:13:28 and to be excited when her crush messaged her. And that's all we're saying. Jeremy should not have followed her on Twitter. He should not have private messaged her. That is when this situation gets very, very real. And also, it's a really clear line that he should have known that he wasn't allowed to cross because this was 2012. The school very likely, being a secondary school,
Starting point is 00:13:51 would have had a clear code of conduct for what is acceptable behavior. Like he could have referenced this just in case he wasn't sure, even though I'm sure he would have had training on what is acceptable. But the thing is, he did follow her. And after the nail polish thing, they started direct messaging each other regularly on Twitter. And the whole time Gemma was openly sharing this fact with her two friends. The risks are so big. But Gemma is a child. She's 14 years old. Jeremy should have known how big the risk was of what he was doing. But there's no way. I don't think Gemma knew what a big risk they were taking at this point. And the thing to note at this point is that Gemma was, I think, desperately looking for someone to be there for her. Gemma at the age of 14 during this time was coping with depression and an eating disorder.
Starting point is 00:14:36 And she felt like her mum was too distracted with other things like her siblings and home life to really be there for her. I mean, how classic are those feelings? Feeling like you don't have anyone to turn to. Oh, in year nine, that's the baseline feeling. Exactly. And whether her mum was actually unavailable or not, Gemma was a teenager. It doesn't matter whether it was true or not, that's how she felt. But the thing is, the key thing is she was probably lonely and looking for support and for love. And at this point, Jeremy became her everything. He was, it seems to me, he was like the only constant in her life.
Starting point is 00:15:10 She would have seen him every single day at school. They were messaging all of the time outside of school. It's like there's no escape from this, nor does she want there to be. But, you know, he's like so dependable how he would have seemed to her. And finally, to Gemma, here was a cool adult who cared about her. And most importantly, I think, here was a man, an adult, and she was his priority. Jeremy must have by now been able to tell how dependent Gemma was on him. And also how vulnerable she was.
Starting point is 00:15:43 And not just because she was a child, but because of everything that she was on him. And also how vulnerable she was. And not just because she was a child, but because of everything that she was going through. I don't think that we have a proper grip on Jeremy Forrest, even after doing the research for the case this week. So either we can say that he's a predator who preyed upon this young vulnerable girl, or we can say that he's a pathetic man who felt underappreciated or lacking in some way in his life and that he used the attention of this young girl to boost his tragically broken ego. And they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. I'm just not sure I 100% know what his motivations are. And I guess the question for us about this case
Starting point is 00:16:16 is why a man who hadn't shown or ever been suspected of paedophilic tendencies before this, why would he take such a huge risk to sleep with a student? It's not rare. Just Google student and teacher have sex. The cases are innumerable. It happened at my school. The Latin teacher ran off with one of the sick formers.
Starting point is 00:16:34 They're still together, apparently, last I heard. Why do these relatively normal people, who wouldn't cross the line with other children, do it in these cases? For Gemma, she wouldn't have been able to understand the risk to her. But what was it that clouded Jeremy Forrest's thinking so much? This is the thing. And like you said, you were immediately able to give an example of a case where it happened in your school. I think most people listening probably either have rumours of this happening
Starting point is 00:16:59 at their school or actual solid facts of this happening at their school. And there were definitely rumours there was an English teacher who everybody rumoured was having some sort of inappropriate relationship with one of the... I don't even think she was in sixth form at the time, I think she was in year 11, and it continued when she went into sixth form, apparently. He was also married to another one of the teachers, so that... Oh, Jesus. I mean, imagine her humiliation coming into school every day,
Starting point is 00:17:21 whether it's real or not, just the fact that his behaviour around her made everyone at the school talk about the fact they were having a sexual relationship. There was another teacher, again, English teacher, head of English, actually. For the life of me, I can't remember her name, which is probably a good thing. I shouldn't out her. She apparently had a she apparently fell in love with a student when he was in sixth form and then he left and they waited until he'd left and gone to university and then they started a relationship and then they got married and then they like had a baby because she got pregnant and went on maternity leave during my GCSE year because I was very annoyed with her about that. How dare you procreate on my time. I know we had a fucking
Starting point is 00:17:58 substitute teacher for the rest of GCSE English year that is outrageous anyway. Only have babies in summer, please. Please, Mrs. Whatever-Your-Name-Was-I-Cannot-Remember. There are so many stories that everybody listening can tell us because this isn't rare. But why does it happen? What's going on in Jeremy's head? We've done the best that we can to try and understand this. And it does seem to be due to a huge amount of emotional immaturity. You can, of course, disagree with us on this, but I don't necessarily think that he was a typical paedophile who was out to prey on kids. I don't think that Jeremy Forrest went into teaching with plans to groom students. I think that he found himself in a situation where he loved the attention from the kids and became almost like the most popular kid
Starting point is 00:18:41 himself because of how emotionally immature he is. I think people may find that quite controversial because I'm not, because he is a convicted pedophile. But I don't think he is in the same sense that if he had been put in another scenario, would he go after grooming children? I think this was a very specific series of events that led him to do what he did, which is still not right, is all I'm saying. No, I agree. And the other thing to mention at this point, which is very, very important, is that Jeremy Forrest was married. There's another woman involved. The thing is, he's very unhappily married, and he'd only been married for about a year, but married nonetheless. And if you want to, we will, you know, see if we can post some of these pictures,
Starting point is 00:19:20 Jeremy Forrest wedding photos, you can find them on the internet. And they are so weird. He looks so awkward and wooden and uncomfortable. And you know, you do have to think like, maybe he's just kind of an awkward guy. Maybe he hates having his photo taken. But I don't think so. Because when he's Jeremy Eyre, he seems to love having his photo taken. I think he just wasn't happy. And it's confirmed because according to his best friend and best man, Dale Ives Routleff. What a name. What a name, right? According to Dale, within months after the wedding, Jeremy was telling him that he was very unhappy at home and describing his home and married life as quote, miserable, lonely and depressing. And during the inevitable trial for this case spoiler because yes it does go to trial Mrs Forrest so Jeremy's wife of just one year told
Starting point is 00:20:11 the court that she and Jeremy had only had sex once in the last year so only had sex once since they'd been married now we are not saying that if only she'd have put out that it would have saved this poor man from going after a student, he's so poor and sex-deprived. No, we're just trying to point out how unfulfilled Jeremy's life was at this point. And of course, again, people with unfulfilled lives don't go off and sleep with their 15-year-old students. We're just painting a picture. So also at trial, Richard Barton, the prosecutor, described Mrs Forrest as young-looking and petite and as a woman who shared some of Gemma's vulnerable characteristics. And yes, he is correct. Mrs Forrest and Gemma
Starting point is 00:20:50 look quite similar, like almost they could be sisters similar. So we've got a teacher who's lonely or having their own relationship problems with adult men or women of their own age, so they might be more willing to cross the line. And it's also, of course, to do with lust, too. I read an interview with a psychiatrist called Dr. Everone, who points out that there is also a weird power play at hand, dominant versus submissive. And they say, quote, the teacher's role is reinforcing such power play as they are in control in the classroom, and also due to the age dynamic. teacher-student relationships have been endorsed in pornography and in halloween costumes for many years this only heightens the fantasy aspect but
Starting point is 00:21:31 it also highlights the fact that there is an audience for such and that is absolutely true like how many like slutty schoolgirl costumes are there out there and also general like hair removal and waxing like having a hollywood wax is like making yourself look like a little girl. And that's the beauty standard. I'm not saying don't do it. If you want to do it, do it. I do it. But like it's such a weird societal thing that that's how we have developed that like the peak of the best way a woman's genitals can look as if she never went through puberty.
Starting point is 00:22:00 Like that's fucked up. Of course. And I was going to say, and in some cultures we see that even more like in, I don't know, like in Japanese culture. Like it's so, I wouldn't say it's part of like the overarching, but when you go there, I mean, what was that documentary? Was it Peaches Geldof who did a documentary about it going there? And it's just like everything is so like childlike and little girly.
Starting point is 00:22:21 Yeah. It's called Kawaii. It's because like, but it's hyper sexualized for a lot of reasons but the one of the theories behind kawaii culture of like looking like a child is because in japan when you are an adult you have so many stress factors and so many things to live up to and it's all very stratified and you have to like go to work or get married and there's possibly limited options of what you can do so it's this idea of staying childlike so you don't have to engage role play yeah Yeah. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:22:51 And, you know, just coming back to our culture, of course, how easy, how many people dress up as slutty schoolgirls? That is a thing that we have as like sexualized as part of our society. So, yes, what he does is an aberration, but it's not one that we as society don't already partake in. No, I mean, you've only just got to look at all of this Epstein shit. Should I tell them my Epstein theory? Do it. They're all gagging for it. I don't think he's dead. I don't think he's dead.
Starting point is 00:23:10 Because, right, okay, think about it. When was the last time someone killed themselves in prison and within 24 hours there was a photograph of their dead body widely available? He's not dead. If anyone has the capacity and the means to fake their death, it's fucking Epstein. Could they also have shown us that photo of the dead body, though? Because they would have known that everyone had been like, we didn't see a picture of the dead body. He's not dead.
Starting point is 00:23:30 Show them the picture of the dead body. But it's not a normal thing. I know. Mate, I have no idea what's going on. He's not dead, man. The best tweet I saw was, though, murder or suicide. Jeffrey Epstein was killed by a rich pedophile. And I think I don't know exactly what happened. And I don't really want to get into this absolute fucking quagmire of, you know, just people
Starting point is 00:23:50 then just fucking hurling insults at me on Twitter, because I haven't said the exact specific combination of things that they think happened. I don't know what happened. What I do know is that Jeffrey Epstein was an absolute fucking piece of shit. And what I do also know is that it's really, really tragic that he's dead, because now the victims are less likely to get the justice that they deserve. But I don't know what happened. Dead or living in the Bahamas, either one. He's probably there.
Starting point is 00:24:12 But anyway, we're not going to engage in this. But you can tell us what you think. But if you do tell us what you think, everyone just be fucking nice to each other. Like, don't just go at it. We don't know what happened. And we don't need to tear tongues out of each other because of what a fucking horrible paedophile
Starting point is 00:24:27 may or may not have ended up being murdered slash killed himself. Anyway, anything else on Epstein? No, no, I've said my bit. Good, we're good. Back to Gemma and Jeremy. So I think the key thing here is that Jeremy isn't necessarily a predator,
Starting point is 00:24:41 who's, well, he is. Tricky language, I don't know what to exactly say. But he's not going after the youngest looking girl in school. She's very young, she's 15. But the point is that everyone who saw Gemma described her as looking like a university student. So she probably looked to Jeremy, not excusing it, just saying, as if she was sexually capable.
Starting point is 00:25:00 And this is a very, very dangerous way for Jeremy to think because he knew how old she was. It would have been incredibly flattering to a sad, pathetic man like Jeremy Forrest because Gemma gave him attention that he probably wasn't used to. Definitely not from adult women, I don't think. But he should have known where the line was. And the line was fucking about 100 feet before he followed her back on Twitter. That's where it was.
Starting point is 00:25:26 But of course, Jeremy Forrest didn't stop. And one day, remember at this point, Jeremy and Gemma are messaging each other constantly on Twitter. One day, Jeremy messaged Gemma to say, quote, I need to tell you something tomorrow at school. So Gemma went in early to see him. And maybe you're thinking, oh, he's come to his senses. He's going to tell her we can't speak anymore.
Starting point is 00:25:46 It's wildly inappropriate. I'm so sorry. We're drawing a line under this. Oh, no. Jeremy told Gemma that he was in love with her. And Gemma told him that she felt the same. So now it is incredibly serious. And this just really fucks me off because it's like she's so young.
Starting point is 00:26:02 She's so vulnerable. He must, as an adult man know the weight of words like that oh my god absolutely tell someone you're in love with them just it really really made me so angry despicable honestly like he really is there is one documentary from all the like searching i did there is only one out there and it's called sexting teacher and it was by channel four but it was like years and years and years ago. And it's not on 4OD anymore, but you can watch it on YouTube. So it's not that hard to find. And it includes lots of snippets of the texts and the sort of Twitter messages that the two exchanged.
Starting point is 00:26:36 And Gemma would message him saying things like, quote, I can't wait to be intimate with you. Which I thought was very weird phraseology for a 15 year old. Oh, yeah. But she's trying to be a grown-up. Yeah this is true this is true. Because we all know as grown-ups that's how we communicate with each other. And when Gemma texts him things like this Jeremy would reply saying quote is it definitely what you want and I feel like it's almost like he's trying to convince himself that she's consenting to this. And this is some serious shit. Jeremy would message Gemma things like, I don't mind the always thinking about you part. It's the fact that that's all I can do.
Starting point is 00:27:11 Get a grip. You're a fully grown man. I know. And she's 15. Fucking out. And then gradually this texting becomes more and more flirtatious and it's not long before it's outwardly sexual. Gemma is so naive in the original interviews and she says things like, we started with no kisses, but the most we put at the end was about six or seven. I remember that
Starting point is 00:27:29 being a huge deal at school. How many kisses someone gave you on MSN? Of course. Life and death. Absolutely absolutely and that's the stage she's at where she's counting kisses. And also you're a 30 year old man putting seven kisses at the end of the text what's wrong with you? I mean. I mean obviously quite a lot yeah. But I think the key thing at this point is like, you go on and say like more and more what he's sort of texting her, but it's like how much of an impact this would have had on Gemma.
Starting point is 00:27:51 Anybody to hear that kind of thing from another person that you are attracted to, to be told all these things, like how powerful that would have been to her and how frankly damaging that is when this all ends. I think that's the key thing that can't be overlooked. The messages at first were just complimentary. Jeremy would message Gemma saying things like,
Starting point is 00:28:09 you're so beautiful. And to a girl going through her own challenges and being a teenager with no doubt fluctuating self-confidence, this would have been addictive for Gemma. And after a while, the messages stepped up a gear. Gemma sent Jeremy a topless photo of her about to get in the shower. And he reciprocated. This is so dangerous.
Starting point is 00:28:27 There have been cases of students sending each other nudes and ending up being charged with distribution of indecent images of children. And by May 2012, Jeremy and Gemma had been secretly messaging for weeks, but the secret was about to come out. Gemma had left her phone out in a lesson, and another pupil had seen her screen and read the messages and this student reported it. Gemma and Jeremy both got called into separate meetings and were told to unfollow each other. And I'm just like where is the fucking school's safeguarding lead? Honestly I used to produce conferences for like safeguarding children in schools and I'm just like this is just like a catalogue of errors about how not to handle a situation like this or how not to go far enough with it and honestly it's like they have no idea what to do and I get it it isn't totally straightforward but it is 2012 at this point where's your school's social media policy and yes like it's not compulsory that you have one but
Starting point is 00:29:20 anyway with their twitter accounts no longer a viable option because they've been forced to unfollow each other, Gemma needed another way to contact Jeremy. She said that she felt like there was no way she could go on without speaking to him. And everyone just take a second. Remember a time after a breakup or after a break when all you want to do is speak to that person, get a message from that person, be with that person, but you can't. And also when you're 14, everything is like times a bajillion exactly it's so painful right and that's as a fucking adult that's still painful well now imagine that something or someone powerful is keeping you apart telling you that you
Starting point is 00:29:58 can't be together imagine how romantic and tragic that would be it's the oldest tale in the book of tragic tales, from Romeo and Juliet to literally the plot of every single Bollywood film ever written. Don't underestimate how powerful it would have been that the school told them that they couldn't speak anymore. Yeah. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it.
Starting point is 00:30:20 Lots of people don't. I didn't either until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey
Starting point is 00:31:00 through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two
Starting point is 00:31:44 minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery+. You can join Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Start your free trial today. Oh God. So, a desperate Gemma got her friend to get Jeremy's number for her. At this point,
Starting point is 00:32:17 Jeremy should have been freaked out enough to stop. But he didn't. One day in June 2012, Jeremy asked Gemma if she wanted to go for a drive. And on that first trip, nothing happened. But just a few days after Gemma's 15th birthday, the two of them kissed. Gemma says about this, quote, there was only so much friendship we could have before it turned into something else. After that, they began meeting regularly before school finished for the summer. The two even kissed in empty classrooms at school. And after that, they began meeting regularly before school finished for the summer. The two even kissed in empty classrooms at school.
Starting point is 00:32:47 And after that, they would meet regularly. But they knew that the heat was on after their Twitter exchange had been discovered, so they needed to escape and get out of town. So they would drive after school to a field, and there they'd sit in his car and talk. And then they got close. Gemma was stressed. Her parents were getting divorced. She's dealing with bulimia and also with depression.
Starting point is 00:33:07 I remember that Jeremy, who'd been married less than a year, was not in a happy marriage. So let's get back to the car. They would sit in his car and talk for hours about their lives and it was here that they first spoke about sex. Their hanging out together escalated pretty soon after the summer school term had ended. Gemma spent almost every day at Jeremy's house.
Starting point is 00:33:26 And when I first read that, I was like, where is his wife? But then I remember that she has a normal job and she isn't a teacher, so she was at work. So when she's in his house, Jeremy would show Gemma text exchanges with his wife where they were fighting and insist that they were separated and they were planning a divorce. Gemma says that even though his wife's stuff was in the house still she chose to believe him. So not only is he manipulating her sexually and emotionally and all of those things he's also lying. Of course completely because he wants her to start coming and hanging out at his house and it's just like showing her messages between you and your wife where you've been fighting to prove
Starting point is 00:34:02 to her your 15 year old fucking student that you're having sex with, that it's all separated and it's done and ignore all the fact that her stuff is all around the house. Like we can just have sex anyway. Like it's so manipulative and grubby. I found also what Gemma and Jeremy actually spoke about really odd. You really get the feeling of Gemma being totally in awe of him. I think for him, it's just loving the fact that someone cared so much about his fucking mundane life.
Starting point is 00:34:33 And like we said earlier, probably something that he'd never managed with an adult woman. In that Cosmo interview, Gemma said that, quote, I'd sit on his sofa watching Peep Show. I would ask him about his marriage how he proposed his girlfriends at university he had so much life experience and i loved hearing about it
Starting point is 00:34:51 that's so fucking weird i just i'm speechless like yeah obviously he's got more experience than you he's double your age yeah then a month after their first kiss in a spare room of his house because yes, he didn't even take her into the main room because obviously his wife is still fucking sleeping in there every night, Jeremy and Gemma had sex. He's 30, she's 15. And he claimed that he didn't know that she was a virgin until she told him afterwards. But fucking come on. That is absolute bollocks. Even Gemma says in that interview that she told him that absolute bollocks even jemma says in that interview that
Starting point is 00:35:26 she told him that's bollocks she said you do know you're dating a pupil don't you she said that to him oh god and jemma i don't know if this is true or if there's just her trying to make him seem like not a terrible person but jemma says that after she told him that she wasn't a virgin that he felt so guilty but you know not guilty enough to stop or to have checked before. That's not true, man. He had sex with her. He knew. Of course.
Starting point is 00:35:52 I don't think he was feeling guilty when he found out this or anything. Or when he may have had weird mood shifts, like Gemma describes. I think he was feeling scared. And the pair had actually talked a lot about the fact that he was at very high risk. Jeremy told Gemma that he could go to jail. And she said that this actually made her feel better because it made her feel like he wasn't being naive about it. But I think that it probably also made her feel like, God, he's so serious about me. He's willing to go to such lengths. Definitely.
Starting point is 00:36:24 Here's a man who's 30. He's putting his career, his life, everything on the line. Maybe he would even go to jail because he loves me so much. But whatever Jeremy was feeling, it certainly didn't stop him. And throughout the summer of 2012, Jeremy and Gemma started frequenting local hotels. She's 15 and they're 30 and they're having regular sex at weekends in local hotels so during the
Starting point is 00:36:47 week in the summer like she'd come to his house and during the weekends they'd go off to hotels I mean it doesn't sound like her mum can have been that interested in what she was doing if she's able to do all of this she says in the interviews though that she just lied to her mum and said she was at her best friend's house oh okay you know maybe when you have a child who has gone through some challenges like dealt with with depression, dealing with bulimia, you're just happy that they're out and about, maybe. Yeah, it's difficult. Gemma said in some interviews that Jeremy would always ask her
Starting point is 00:37:14 if she was OK during sex and that he wasn't taking advantage of her. That is absolute bollocks. That's performative. He's not actually bothered. But we all know that a child cannot consent to sexual activity. Gemma also told her best friends about the sex and she told them that they had sex like seven or eight times a night that sounds absolutely fucking terrible i can't think of anything worse it also sounds like a massive lie yeah i mean it's not true nice but i always when people show off about stuff like that i'm like that sounds terrible like why is that like sounds awful. Why is that what you want to be doing? No.
Starting point is 00:37:45 No. Once at the most, they'll never come near me again. So, hi, Mum. Her friends. So Gemma's friends say now that they knew that it was wrong, but it was the first time in a long time that Gemma had seemed happy, so they didn't tell her to stop. And also, I mean, this is the other power dynamic as well. It's like, yes, they know it's wrong because he's a teacher, but he's also a grown up and they're very much not. So they're
Starting point is 00:38:08 like, oh, well, maybe there's something about this that he knows that I don't because he's double my age. By this point, Gemma and Jeremy were calling each other boyfriend and girlfriend. And if you're wondering what their plan is here, Gemma says that they used to fantasize about their lives together. They talked about moving away when she was 18 so they could finally reveal the truth about their relationship. And it seems so naive. And it's also like five years away. Like, are you going to continue to do this for five years? It's just, none of it makes any sense.
Starting point is 00:38:36 None of it makes any sense. And I'm just like, I think to Jeremy, this is just pure escapism. He's just like, my life is miserable. It's not what I want it to be. I'm not as adored by my wife or my public when being Jeremy Eyre as I'd like to be. And here's this girl who gives me all of those things that I need. And it's great. God, it gets worse. Jeremy took it another step further and he got a tattoo. It's a weird one. It's of a young schoolgirl in a blue dress with a wolf on a leash.
Starting point is 00:39:06 And the tattoo artist who did it says that Jeremy was very specific about every detail and that when someone is like that, it's because the image has a lot of significance for them. So what is he saying here? Is Gemma the girl? Is he the wolf? Like, sounds it. I mean, also, but like, try harder with your symbolism, please. I know. I don't get it. and why is he a wolf? I don't get it. It's all very strange but if the meaning was too you know obtuse we will post the image you can take a look at it. It was you know splashed all over the media when it when it came out but you know just in case like the meaning was lost on anyone maybe it was too obtuse maybe he just needed some more time to think about what he was really trying to say here because Jeremy came back to the tattoo artist two weeks later with some additions that he wanted to make that made it, I think, just pretty bloody on the
Starting point is 00:39:49 nose, if it wasn't already. Because he came back with Nirvana lyrics from the song Drain You, inked into the design. The line that he had put in was, quote, one baby to another, I'm lucky to have met you and in the song it references a pupil and teaching someone everything it's all you know it's very it's like it's almost as if he got don't stand so close to me tattooed on him like it's so ridiculous how like he's trying to get caught man I know I know I know this is thing. It's like plausible deniability, at least. That's not even plan A for you. You're just going to get a fucking tattoo of her on you with that lyric.
Starting point is 00:40:31 Yeah, I don't know. It's just very weird. Even the tattoo artist remembered thinking that it was very juvenile. And remember, if you will, back to their first ever trip where they got close in LA. They said Gemma and Jeremy had bonded over their love of Nirvana and their favourite lyrics. To me, there's no doubt that it's about her. But guess what?
Starting point is 00:40:50 Unbelievably, Jeremy took his wife along to the tattoo sessions. How fucking ridiculous. She must have known something. We haven't shagged in a year, but he's going to get a tattoo of me. Come on. I don't know. It's so strange because I'm just like what is he thinking maybe he could have told his wife that it was her because like we said they do look very alike she's very
Starting point is 00:41:09 petite she is very young looking but it's not her because Jeremy sent a picture of the tattoo to Gemma but maybe that's how you should like get away with things if you're going to cheat on your partner cheat on your partner with someone who looks exactly like them so then you can get tattoos of them on your body and tell them that it's both of them. The summer ended and the next academic year began but the thing is it immediately felt different for Gemma. Students were now whispering, someone had seen her get into Jeremy's car during the holidays and now everyone knew that something was going on between them and this is the thing I mean rumors plus high school equals nuclear war. People just fucking love to talk. And this is like going to be prime gossip that people were probably just dying to talk about
Starting point is 00:41:51 when they got back to school, you know, after the summer. And the thing is, it got even worse. Because remember that photo that Jeremy had sent Gemma? Apparently she'd shown it to her best friends, the word had got out, and finally an anonymous tipster had phoned the police and told them that Gemma and Jeremy were sleeping together. The police rightly so turned up at Gemma's house and four months after this had all started, it all came crashing down. Gemma was still at school that day when her brother texted her saying that the police were at their house and that it was about her and her teacher. She went straight to Jeremy's room where he was teaching a class but she knocked on the door and dragged him out to tell him what happened. Jeremy told Gemma to go home but she told him that she just wanted to run away. When Gemma got home deleting all of her messages and photos with
Starting point is 00:42:36 Jeremy on the way she found a social worker and a police child protection officer in her house. She told them that nothing had happened but police took her phone and said that they'd be back. She called Jeremy from her friend's phone and told him that they should run away because it was only a matter of time before he was arrested. And then the next day Jeremy picked Gemma up and the two got on the ferry to Calais. On the way Jeremy dropped his phone in the English Channel. They made it to Bordeaux and booked themselves into a little hotel paying in cash. Gemma dyed her red hair blonde and Jeremy dyed his mousy brown hair black. The pair managed seven days on the run. Gemma remembers the two of them sitting in the sun every morning
Starting point is 00:43:12 eating pastries and drinking milkshakes. She's a child. I know. The fact that the gravity of the situation is completely lost on Gemma doesn't surprise me. The fact that Jeremy is not fucking paying attention to what he's doing is mind-boggling. How on earth did he think running away to France
Starting point is 00:43:30 with a 15-year-old child was going to make his case better? What's he thinking? I've no idea, but he claims that both of them had no idea about the media frenzy and the police madness that was unfolding back in the UK. But Gemma now says that despite all of the CCTV footage of them walking around arm in arm and laughing and joking, Jeremy was actually panicking quite a lot when they were in France. She said that they both knew that they were going to get caught sooner or
Starting point is 00:43:54 later for something that they didn't think was wrong. I found this just so tragic. So back in the UK, obviously, this is a complete media frenzy. There's no other way to describe it. And the police had to get Jeremy's parents to do a fucking pretty tragic police conference. I feel so sorry for them. They had to appeal for him on TV. His mum is just crying hysterically. And his dad is like choking back tears while he asks his son to just come back. Just imagine the humiliation for them. I can't. I can't. I don't want to. I won't do it. But even this, even this didn't shake Jeremy to go home. I mean, I don't know if he saw it or not,
Starting point is 00:44:32 but still, you can imagine that he knows his parents are going through shit. And instead of going, he just cried to Gemma that his family were going to disown him when he did eventually get caught. But I guess maybe just by this point, they're in so deep. Maybe they were just like, we're going to get caught. Let's just, you know, ride out and have as good of a time as we can before we get caught. But what else did he think was going to happen? He can't have genuinely believed that they would have been able to carry this out in secret for five years until she was 18. I mean, well, it would have been four years. years yeah five academic years until she can leave school unless she leaves at 16 and goes to college somewhere else god he's a man who is very much taking it day by day he's not a man who is thinking
Starting point is 00:45:15 about the consequences of his actions or his behavior at all at any point that is what teenagers do that's why jemma is doing what she's doing but jeremy is a fucking grown man and he's still behaving that way he's not okay but anyway at this point you know pastries and milkshakes aren't free you need to have some money apparently they'd already used up a lot of the money that jeremy had taken with him i'm guessing his wife already also fucking put a block on their joint account or whatever's going on there and also if he uses yeah well you bloody work absolutely and if he uses his card they're gonna find out where he. So I think they've run out of the money that he took with them in cash originally. So they need a job. So they write these fake CVs with fake names to try and find work in Bordeaux. And I thought it was quite bizarre because I watched
Starting point is 00:46:00 an interview with this woman who is like a pub landlord where he applied for a job. They put their photos on their CVs, but they changed their a job. They put their photos on their CVs. But they changed their names, but they put their faces on their CVs. Why would you do that? That's going to give you away more than your name is probably going to do. Yeah, that's true. And also the photo of him that he puts on his CV makes him 100% look like a paedophile. Wrong photo, Jeremy.
Starting point is 00:46:24 But anyway, as we said, Jeremy applied for work at an English pub and took Gemma with him to his interview. And at first, the owner said that she didn't really think much of it. But then the next day, she saw them on the news and she called the police.
Starting point is 00:46:36 Because she's English, she's running an English pub over in Bordeaux. She's probably still watching the English news and she sees her. So she calls the police and then the next day, she invites Jeremy to come to a trial shift at the pub. And this she calls the police and then the next day she invites Jeremy to come to a trial shift at the pub and this is when the police pounced. Jeremy was handcuffed as he mouthed
Starting point is 00:46:52 its spine to a screaming Gemma. That would be the last time that they would see each other until they were in court. They were flown back to the UK separately. Jeremy was charged with child abduction and later sex with a child and would stand trial. Gemma would be the prosecution's star witness. With Jeremy in custody, Gemma was sent to a special institution to complete her GCSEs and nine months later, on the same week as her exams, Jeremy stood trial. But the entire trial, Gemma insisted in court that she had never been a victim. Regardless, Jeremy Forrest was sentenced to
Starting point is 00:47:25 five and a half years. As the sentence was passed, Gemma started to cry uncontrollably and Jeremy turned to her in court and said, I love you, to which she replied, I'm so sorry, I'll love you forever. That floored me. His family are in court. He's on trial for child abduction and sex with a child. She is there crying. Show some fucking remorse. He tells her he loves her. What are you doing, Jeremy? Yeah, exactly.
Starting point is 00:47:52 And after he was released on licence in July 2016, Jeremy was put on the sex offenders register for the rest of his life. There are a few stirrings in the summer of 2017 that Jeremy might have ended up back in jail after it was discovered that Gemma and he had spoken while he was out on probation. And he'd been told explicitly by the judge not to contact or communicate with her. The two apparently spoke briefly, and Jeremy told Gemma that he was in a new relationship and that he was happy. According to that Cosmo interview, Gemma says, quote,
Starting point is 00:48:23 Do I regret my relationship with Jeremy? I can't say that I do, but I now recognise it for what it was, a dangerous infatuation, one that cost both of us dearly. I was going to put this into this episode, but we kind of decided we didn't really want to give this person the airtime. If you go into Reddit and you search this case, you know, I was just seeing what the general vibe was about this, what people's opinions were.
Starting point is 00:48:50 There is, of course, a men's rights activist, you know, I was just seeing what the general vibe was about this, what people's opinions were. There is, of course, a men's rights activist blogger who has written an entire article about how society is so fucked up that this man who was just, you know, in love with this girl and he was punished and she wasn't punished because, you know, society is horrible and just treats men awfully. No, it's because he was a 30-year-old man and she was a 15-year-old child. And he was her teacher. Sorry to come back to Epstein. What was it he said that it's a cultural aberration in the West? It's like a cultural, like a culture, I can't remember the exact term wording, but he's saying it's a cultural anomaly in the West that we're not attracted to young girls and everywhere else in the world is completely fine. Yep. There are sex laws protecting minors in this country and many other countries for a reason. So I absolutely were not making excuses for Jeremy at any point during this episode. We were just
Starting point is 00:49:33 trying to understand the motivations behind a man who I genuinely think put in any other situation wouldn't have been a predator of young girls. I think he was just a tragic, pathetic man who didn't know where to draw the line. And he made a series of poor, poor, poor choices. And he is, he got the comeuppance that he should have done. But I do think what happened between them is going to be, have been incredibly damaging for Gemma.. I'm sure lots of people have teacher, student, uncomfortable tales. I'm sure we'll hear about them on social media. If you want to tell us, you can follow us at Red Handed The Pod on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook. You can get your tour tickets to come see us live in action. Again, link is in the episode description. You can also become a lovely Patreon. Well, you can become a lovely patron on Patreon. We've done a whole load of restructuring of things. You can now get enamel pins, loads more bonus content.
Starting point is 00:50:31 Go take a look at the tiers. And also, our merch shop on Spreadshare, as it exists currently, its days are extremely numbered. So if you want something that is on the merch shop now, you're really going to have to do it before probably mid september i would say i don't want to put an exact date on it so and we'll be having a whole new line of merch so everything that's on the merch shop now will no longer exist in about a month's time so get on it exactly if you want it absolutely that is a good point we've even just bought some
Starting point is 00:51:00 merch off there because we didn't own any of our own merch up until recently um so yep do all of those things and here are some lovely lovely lovely patrons that we have to say thank you for this week so we have kayla nelson chelsea van de bait uh georgie leslie white uh sarabi cisco samantha moore fabiola j vasquez stephanie Lim, Laura, Mia Martinson, Tessiva, JT Billings, Claire Ogden, Julianne, Billy Hensley, Inez Tora, Kristen Lukajski, Kristen Roberts, Kayla Knopf, Katie Button, Mallory Day, Belinda Sheehan, Stacey Amora, Bernice Johnson, Agatha Corhoan, Ian Johnson, Fanny Krupper, Tiana Alexandra Anderson. Thank you guys so much. Oh, oh, oh, and also, happy wedding to Lily who, I used to work with her mum
Starting point is 00:52:30 at the Royal Dye Museum and she now listens to the show and she came to our show and she got married recently so congratulations on your marriage. Congratulations, Lily. Thanks for listening, guys and we will see you later.
Starting point is 00:52:39 See you later. Bye. Bye. Bye. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of music industry. Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today, I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment, charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution.
Starting point is 00:53:34 I was f***ed up. I hit rock bottom. But I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real. From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is The Rise and Fall of Diddy. Listen to The Rise and Fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery+. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mom's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey
Starting point is 00:54:12 to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance,
Starting point is 00:54:34 but it instantly moved me, and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to finding andy and finding natasha exclusively and ad free on wondery plus join wondery plus in the wondery app apple podcasts or spotify

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