RedHanded - Episode 112 - Gable Tostee: The Fall - Part 1

Episode Date: September 19, 2019

On August 8, 2014 28 year old Gable Tostee and 26 year old Warriena Wright met for a first date in Surfer’s Paradise on The Gold Coast. The pair had matched on Tinder - and the date was only ever meant to be a casual hook up, so they went straight to Tostee’s 14th floor flat.  In the early hours of the following morning Warriena plunged to her death from Tostee’s balcony.  This case truly is a mystery, and normally it would be impossible for anyone to deduce what had happened behind closed doors that night - but unbelievably with this story we have over 3 hours of audio recorded by Tostee himself... Sources: 60 Minutes Australia podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/60-minutes-true-crime-podcast/id1445801763?i=1000425558113 60 Minutes Australia documentary: https://youtu.be/B2Z_2ozl9W8 Raw Audio: https://youtu.be/ivdbsvjuW2Q Full Transcript: https://en.mogaznews.com/World-News/amp/214900   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Saruti.

I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed. We are halfway through our tour. I'm sure it's going very, very well. So I guess we don't need to do that announcement and we can just jump straight into today's case. Because it's a big one. Today we are heading to Australia's Gold Coast. And I hear that, speaking to my Australian friend, that Australia's Gold Coast is like their version of our Essex. Oh, really? That's really interesting. The Gold Coast is where Teacher's Pet happened, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Fine. That's so strange. I never would

have thought that. But yeah, apparently that's, it's very like Essex-y. And those of you who aren't from the UK, I guess like the US comparison is like Geordie Shore. No, no, Jersey Shore. Geordie Shore is still us. Yeah, we've got a lot of them. We do. We do indeed. We're off to Australia's Gold Coast, where on the 8th of August 2014, a young couple, Gable Toste and Marina Wright, were on a Tinder date. It was their first time meeting, and it wasn't ever meant to be anything serious. Marina was from New Zealand, and she was just in town for two weeks for a friend's wedding and a bit of a holiday. So this was always just meant to be a bit of a casual hook-up. But that night, the pair got drunk, and arguments erupted. By the early hours of the following morning, Marina would be dead, and soon after, Tosti would be arrested for

her murder. What makes this case so unique is the three hours of audio recording that Gable Tosti himself made of that night. And in it, his disregard for Warina is what, among many other things, is so jarring. And sadly, in a continuation of this disregard for Warina, the trial and the way in which this case was handled altogether also screens of a total lack of concern or interest in justice for a young woman who lost her life so tragically. It also absolutely highlights the increasingly unsettling behaviour of a man who spent his whole life never facing the consequences of his actions.

There is a lot of information out there on this case, not to mention masses of online posts, a series of selfies from the night itself, a shit tonne of CCTV, and of course the hours of audio that we mentioned. But we think it's still a case that could use some clarity. So let's start with the evening in question. It's the 8th of August 2014 and the pair, so we've got 28-year-old Tosti and 26-year-old Warina, had matched on Tinder and they are organised to meet. CCTV shows them meeting at 8.45pm outside a surf shop in the busy Cavill Avenue area

of Surfers Paradise. What a bizarre thing to call somewhere. Is it like an area? Is it area of Surfers Paradise. What a bizarre thing to call somewhere. Is it like an area? Is it genuinely called Surfers Paradise? It's genuinely called Surfers Paradise. And as far as I can tell, it's just like an area of the Gold Coast. Right, OK, a bit on the nose, but never mind. They headed to a beer garden, but almost immediately left and headed to a shop to buy a six-pack of beer

before making their way to Tosti's swanky riverfront flat in the nearby Avalon building. We know all of this because CCTV followed their route that evening. It's only after Warina enters Tosti's flat that we start to lose our ability to know exactly what happened next. Warina was in his flat for a total of 321 minutes. And in that time, something happened that caused Warina to fall 14 stories to her death from Tosti's balcony. For the first half of our story, we only have Tosti's version of what happened, plus his audio recording. So in these episodes, because yes, this is going to be a two-parter, you absolute lucky bunch of people. So both these episodes will use a combination of these things to try and decipher what happened that night. So the pair arrived at Tosti's flat at around 9pm and we can see this on CCTV.

According to Tosti, they went inside and drank the six pack of beer and then moved on to some of Tosti's homemade vodka. That is horrendousous that shit can make you go blind man exactly why are you making your own vodka i don't understand and also like if you've got a fancy riverside flat like it's not like he's hard up do you know what i mean it's not like he's doing it out of necessity like he's in prison no he will go on like mainly next week to talk about like his lifestyle and like the money he's got and everything. But like, why is he doing this? Because I looked into this and home distilling isn't illegal in Australia.

But there aren't really many safeguards in place from what I could see. Are you allowed to home distill here? I know you can home brew like beer and stuff. I'm not sure if you're allowed to make your own like spirits. It's a good question. I don't actually think I looked into whether you could do it here or not, but you can definitely do it in Australia. You just need to get yourself a license to do it. And I was like, oh, OK, well, you need a license.

Therefore, it must be somewhat like regulated. But no, the license isn't to prove that you can do it safely. It's only so that you have to pay tax on it. Ah, typical. I know. And like, apparently you have to pay tax there on any alcohol that you distill in your house, even if the booze is just for personal consumption. So you're not even going to sell it. Well, just don't declare it. That seems like a bit of a no-brainer. Sorry, I'm not encouraging tax fraud, guys.

But yeah, I don't know. If you have to still pay tax on it, why not just buy it? I don't know. Right, exactly. If you're paying, it doesn't really seem like you're saving much money. I guess it's just like, I'm not going to pay for that branding and that marketing. I'm just going to make my own vodka. In the bath. But the point is with this is that he was making his own spirits. And I also looked into like what that actually entails. Essentially, when you do this home distillation, it comes out as pure ethanol, just pure ethanol, 100% proof. And then it's up to you to dilute it yourself to get it to the right proof, which for vodka would be at a like 40% level. A friend of mine brews his own beer

and whenever he has a party, he'll have like a keg of it or whatever. And if you have even one of those that will send you so far west that you will never ever return it's so fucking strong i mean obviously there are people that who are incredibly good at uh james isn't one of them but like it must be so hard to be i mean obviously it is an exact science of course it is but like it must be hard to keep on top of it i think to be able to judge how strong it's going to be definitely and, like I said, you're going to have to sit there and dilute it to the point that it's at a safe level. And if you're drinking spirits that someone else has made, you've got to trust that they've done that properly. Because yeah, otherwise, you're just going to fucking

go blind or die. And having gone through the research for this case and delving into Tosti's background, I think it's safe to say that Gable Tosti is without a doubt an alcoholic. And obviously, I'm not saying that anyone who makes their own alcohol is an alcoholic. But I guess this way, Tosti can control the actual proof levels of what he's making, and I suppose get more bang for his buck. I cannot stand people who discuss the like alcohol content of the drink that they're having it's literally one of my least favorite features in people i'd be like oh well i won't have that beer because it's actually only five percent i'll have this one which is the fuck off i don't care i

don't care shut up and drink it i'm gonna think tosti was exactly that kind of girl and tosti said that after drinking and chatting for a bit he and warina then had sex so from his perspective and possibly hers at this stage, so far, so good. Everything was going to plan. But then just after midnight, things took a turn. And at 12.55am, Tosti hit the record button on his phone. And his phone would continue to record the audio of what happened for the next three hours. And we have listened to all three of those hours, so you don't have to.

There's also a police transcript which gives a minute-by-minute play-by-play of the hours before Warina's death. We have also read that because it's quite a lot of drunken rambling and not everything makes sense and they've got really strong Antipodean accents. So some things just pass you by a bit,

but that's what the transcript is there for. But this audio, rightly or wrongly, became the most crucial bit of evidence in this case. This is the massive question that we have over these episodes is who the fuck records for hours on their phone? It just seems like such a bizarre thing to do. It doesn't make you look particularly innocent. But it's the biggest part of evidence in this case, and you could say, well, if you have hours of recording of what happened that night, that's clearly the best evidence you could get.

But I don't think we'd be doing our jobs properly if we didn't raise some questions about its credibility. It's not a recording that the third party made without the knowledge of Tosti and Warina. Tosti knows he's recording, Warina has no idea. So he's in control of the narrative totally. And throughout the research we found that there seems to have been no effort by authorities to check whether the recording had been tampered with, or even any questions about its reliability.

Even if Tosti hadn't outright tampered with the actual recording, how hard would it be to hit pause and then hit record again to miss out crucial things that happened that night? And just to circle back on that very first crucial question that you asked, why? Why would you start recording your date three hours before her death. What are the chances? What did Tosti think or perhaps know was going to happen that he needed to have insurance against? It just doesn't make sense. It just shows total forethought for whatever happens. Exactly. Now there is an interview with Tosti on 60 Minutes Australia and we'll leave a link to the podcast where you can listen to the whole thing they like made a documentary of it and they made a podcast with it and if you do have the stomach

for it you can watch the documentary it's available on youtube they've uploaded it themselves and you can watch this like oh i don't spoilers like i'm totally giving away what i think of him but you can watch this like hammy face to give his like completely toe-curling answers to the questions that are put to him hammy faced seems like a strange a strange collection of words to put together like when i look at him i think ham faced his face looks like boiled ham to me really in the interviews now of him like in a contemporary way right right right he's like oh gross you watch it and you tell me if you disagree with my description of him being ham Oh, I see, I see, I see. Right, right, right. He's like, oh, gross. You watch it and you tell me if you disagree with my description of him being ham-faced.

And like we said, you can watch this documentary and see this on YouTube. But the version that they've uploaded is kind of really poor quality. The audio cuts out in random bits. And like some of it you just can't hear so I would suggest listening to the podcast because it's got the whole version on there and this interview is a lot at first I thought why the hell is Tosti doing this what has he got to gain but it turns out that 60 Minutes Australia paid him six figures for the exclusive interview so of course he was going to do it. And I want to say that's so gross, but I guess it's just business. It's gross business, but it's business, I guess.

I'm a journalism. Exactly. If you haven't seen that Ralph meme, it is absolutely essential viewing. This is your, that's your homework. Go and find the Ralph, I'm a journalism meme. And after all, this is a TV station. This was one of the biggest cases at the time, of course. And this is also a TV station that has now got famous non-racist Katie Hopkins writing for them. Oh, for God's sake. Is she in Australia now?

Is that where she's gone? I thought she'd been quiet. I mean, yeah, I guess there's people willing to pay her there to write really fucking pointless articles. And I only found out that she was writing for them because I found out that a couple of days ago, she wrote a rather, shall we say, racially motivated feature on Meghan Markle. Katie? Never. And apparently it's on how she's bringing down Prince Harry.

Oh, fuck off. Oh, really? My grandma said something very similar. I wonder why. Yes, fuck off. Oh, really? My grandma said something very similar. I wonder why. Yes, I wonder. What's she possibly done that Kate hasn't done? I don't know. I just don't know.

Oh, what could it possibly be? I don't know. But anyway, saying this, I do at least appreciate that the interviewer who does the interview on 60 Minutes Australia doesn't give Tosti a super easy ride. Like, he does ask some pressing questions, but probably could have gone a bit further with them, I think. For example, he asks Tosti, why would you record what was happening? To which Tosti replies, the question isn't why would you record it? The question is, why wouldn't you record it? Is it? Is it? Because no, I think the question is still very much, why would you record it? The question is, why wouldn't you record it? Is it? Is it? Because no, I think the question is still very much,

why would you record it? If I ever found out that someone was recording my fucking Tinder date, I'd be like, you are a psychopath. Like you need to be in some sort of institution. A hundred percent. I think, and he goes on to explain because he clearly is continuing to try and pretend

that this isn't a big deal because he goes on to explain i think lots of people do it meaning record their date secretly but they just wouldn't admit it what no way i really i genuinely sincerely hope that is absolutely not true i'm worried now i'm like scared maybe they're all trying to start dating podcasts who knows and they need some raw material he also goes on to explain to the interviewer, I used to go out drinking a lot and I don't have the best memory when I've been drinking. And in this day and age, it's so easy to hit record. Oh my. So he's like claiming that he would just go back and listen to it the next day and be like, oh, that's what happened. That's how charming and suave I am. Like,

honestly, I don't know i really really don't know i don't really understand why the interviewer like i know they don't give him a totally easy ride but i think if you're paying someone six figures you can fucking rib him and it doesn't really seem like that's happened too much i think it's also because tosti doesn't ever try to tosti is weirdly He's weirdly like, why wouldn't you do it? Why wouldn't you? It's so easy. Like everybody does it, don't they? So it almost kind of makes it hard for the interviewer to know where to go with that. Right, right, right, right. That makes sense. that he doesn't even realise where everyone thinks what he was doing was so weird. But I also wonder, the only other thing I can think, because when he started to say, I have a bad memory when I've been drinking in this day and age,

I thought he was going to go down the road of explaining like, well, you just don't know what someone's going to accuse you of, so you should have like a safety insurance or something. But he doesn't like come out and say that. The only other thing I can think of why he does this is because, we'll go on to talk about it in more detail in next week's episode. But he is like notorious with women, like in terms of like talking about his conquests and stuff like this. And is it just like proof for him, like some sort of weird trophy? I don't know.

It's very strange, very strange. Or maybe it's like a game pickup artist type thing where he listens back to it and he was like, what could I have done better? 100%. This man is 100% men's rights activist, pick-up artist, whatever we want to call that kind of person. He is that. 100%. You know the guy who wrote the game has got a fucking true crime podcast now. Shut up. It's called Life and Death in LA. It's Neil Strauss. It's him.

Oh my God. Is it really? Yeah, for real, for real. Coming back to the interview, the interviewer pushes back when Tosti says that it's just so easy. Why wouldn't you do it? And he does say, just because it's easy,

why would you record it? And Tosti explains, it's a quote, just in case thing. 99% of the time, I wouldn't need to listen back. But it's better off having something and not needing it than not having it and needing it. What happened that night is a perfect example. Saying he needed it that night because of what happened still doesn't explain why he was recording it. Surely something has happened before. Or surely he knew something was going to happen that night.

The recording is an interesting bit of evidence. As we listen to it, we have to remember that Tosti knows he's being recorded. So what's being captured from his end, everything he's saying, the way he's presenting himself and how he's narrating the situation, is a bit biased. We aren't going to go through the entire transcript or recording here, not just because it's three hours long, but also because most of it is mind numbingly boring and soundtrack with the fucking worst music that this absolute bellend was playing in his house it's kind of like there's a bit where

they're listening to music and it's like a doorbell orchestra like it's such a bizarre section of i don't even know what it is and then it becomes like doorbell orchestra featuring a rapper saying the n-word quite a lot there's so much of the n-word and I'm like okay that rapper's made it that's fine but shut the fuck up Gable as we have said we have listened to it we have read it so you do not have to we have singled out the key points and we'll leave a link to the entire transcript if you want to read it but it is a lot of mumbly drunk chat, to be honest. And we'll also link the full audio in the show notes so you can listen and read at the same time

if you have a spare three hours this week. The recording starts at 12.56am, and they both seem relatively calm at first. You can hear drinks being poured and they're chatting about food. We are going to start to play some clips from quite early on in the recording. Don't worry, though, the recordings do get easier to understand once they turn the music off, and they're chatting about food. We are going to start to play some clips from quite early on in the recording. Don't worry though, the recordings do get easier to understand once they turn the music off, which happens about a third of the way through. But we will play you a few clips from the start

because we want you to see just how much the mood goes on to change. Oh, no, it's fine. Sorry. I'll show you my favourite house that I built You'd like it It's a gay song, eh? It's a gay song Shut up or I'm gonna make you come in

Shut up or I'm gonna fucking beat you up like a jack He's not beating you up like a kiwi. I beat people up all the time. You only beat up the tender babe. Marry the girl. Fuck me, what's your fucking... Have a look at this. See?

You do look like... Sam. I won't look like him if you keep beating me up. I'll look like a... You don't look like Sam. It's not like... You look like a piece you keep beating me up. I'll look like a... You're not like Sam, it's not. I'll look like a piece of tenderized meat. See that?

Sam's the part of the tenderized meat. Would you like to, um... Ah! Jump in there? You know what happens to Sam? No. He's, like, beaten up by demons and shit. They sound fine at this point, right? They sound, like, in pretty good spirits, like...

They sound like normal drunk Tinder date chat, is what it sounds like. Exactly, which again then begs the question, why is he already recording? This is just five or six minutes after he hit record. I could understand if she was kicking off or there was like midway through a fight, he grabs his phone and hits record

because he wants some insurance why start recording when there's absolutely no kind of animosity or weirdness happening already that's what's so odd about it so following this there we don't want to just keep playing audio from the early parts it's not that interesting but after this just this more like garbled chat and at one point warina says quote i know you want to kill me because you told me so but it's also disjointed like it's very hard to tell where that comes from that must have been something he said before he hit record because you don't ever hear him actually say that after this they then go on to talk about space and religion and god but not in any particularly interesting way in a way that a

couple of drunk people do at like 1.30 in the morning. And during this conversation about life and religion and God, Tosti says, quote, there isn't anything after this, meaning life. You die and that's it. Throw me off the balcony and that's it. That is it. Boom. Now this next clip is from about 1.20am. And it's hard to hear clearly what's going on, but let's give it a try. Come here. Don't close your door. Do you want me to walk you back home? No, you can't. Don't be like that.

Just come again. Do you want me to walk you back home? No, I'm just kidding. No, you can't. Don't be like that. Just have a good time. I'm sorry you can't come home. I'm not going to be here long. I'm just kidding. I'm not going to be here long. Are you okay? No. In case you couldn't hear that super clearly because I know the music is really loud, Tosti tells Warina something like, But Warina replies like she's almost

ready to leave and says something like have a good'un and have a good night. Tosti clearly stops her leaving though. He tells her to close the door. In all honesty though I can't really tell how serious Warina was about actually leaving but she does say it. The thing that is key I think at this point given how early on this is into the whole evening, this is about 36 minutes into him hitting record, Warina sounds so much more drunk than Tosti to me. And she sounds drunk and confused already. I completely agree. He seems like he's absolutely got his like his wits about him. He's making clear, concise points. And she's just sort of like, I think she is sort of slurring

her words but she's talking a lot louder than he is like she's not really answering questions in a like succinct way like i think it's a very fair thing to say that she's significantly more drunk than he is and this begs the question like obviously i think he's a very hard drinker so you could just say he's got a crazy high tolerance but you also don't like you constantly the most important thing is, constantly throughout the first, like, two thirds of this recording, you hear drinks being poured again and again and again.

Nothing until this point has been particularly intense. But then, at 1.35am, the music stops and an argument starts. And it all happens very abruptly. So let's have a listen to the first escalation yeah but where's her shit at least not my fucking shit like what oh my fucking dad what does it look like is it in there it looks like a fucking iphone shit do you want me to ring it?

Yeah, I'd love you to fucking ring it. What's the number? I'll find it. Yeah, what the fuck is it? There's a ton of your stuff right here. Hey, look. I didn't say you have to leave. I just said stop beating me up. Are you serious? No, it's in, it's there, next to the bed.

Where? Where? There. Where? Are you going to fucking reach high on me? Look, because I will fucking, I will fucking destroy your jaw. It's not fucking funny. Look there. No, whatever.

Look, look, look. You may have fucking... Yeah, sure, whatever. That's your stuff right there. Are you gonna... Get it from me. Get it. Get it from me.

I don't know what you're looking at. That's your stuff. Get it from me. Get it. Get it. Get it from me. Give it to me. Give it to me. Give it to me. I'm calling the police. I'm calling the police. It's worth it.

No, I want to call the police. Give it to me. Give it to me. Now, give it to me. Good. Fuck you, Mr. Give it to me now. Good. Fucking this place. Give me that. Come on, Cleo.

Oh, fuck. Give me that. Like that. Fucking make it look like it. Yeah, it's good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah's good. We are here. This makes shit. Okay, we're in a cool place. And they're gonna come here. Yeah? Yeah, because, um... know why I have the first phone. Yeah, because um... I didn't call the police. What are you looking for? I didn't call the police! I lost my fucking money!

I'm not gonna do shit. Call them with what? I thought you lost your phone. Exactly. So how are you gonna call anyone without your phone? You stole my fucking phone! I didn't touch your goddamn phone. You guys just fucking stole my shit! Shit, I should never...

So that's why I'm fucking calling you. I should never give you any so much credit. I thought we were going to have fun. Well, where's my shit? Where's your phone? Where is my shit? What's your phone? Where's my shit? Where's your phone? Where's my shit? What's your phone number? I'll...

I haven't... You're a hundred fucking psycho bitch! Fucking... I don't deserve this shit, alright? I'm a nice fucking guy. Yeah! Nice fucking guy. Oh, my bloody...

Oh, why doesn't he have fucking... Son of a... Your phone must be out of battery. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I fucking drive. Oh, my God. Oh, why does he have fucking... Son of a... Your phone must be out of battery. What's this? Oh, that's why. It must be on the dock.

So, Warina did sound drunk before, but she came across as either quite playful or confused, but now she sounds pissed off. And we've read some reports that Satosti had hidden Warina's phone in his pocket and that he was gaslighting her and recording it to make her seem totally nuts. We can't verify this, and I honestly don't know where those reports got that information that he hid her phone in his pocket, as he obviously would not have admitted to that and nobody else was there. But it does sound odd, doesn't it? It does come across like he's fucking with her. One minute he says her phone is in the bedroom and then he says, oh wait, that's mine. And then he randomly says that her phone is on the balcony. He also keeps asking her for her number, but he has her number and we'll discuss their Tinder exchanges next week. But they swapped numbers already in their very first chat.

Why would he be asking for something he already has? And Maureen does sound like she thinks he's done something with her phone and her belongings. She keeps saying that she wants to call the police. And there is a point during the clip where it sounds like she says, Are you going to fucking untie me? But Tosti says that wasn't what she said and the police agree in the transcript it's written down as quote are you going to moi tie me as in the

martial art and there is a bit of martial arts chat now and again in their conversation so it's plausible that that's what she said and she also had been doing mai tai for like a few months before this happened. And there were points where they kept being like, I'm going to attack you, I'm going to punch you, I'm going to do this. And I guess she's kind of being like, are you going to Mai Tai me? And I think it sounds in her accent like she's saying, are you going to untie me? But what I find particularly jarring in this clip is how Tosti sounds so intentional as he replies, I never should have given you so much to drink. He even pauses when she starts to talk over him and repeats it. So it's really clear on the recording. And I think

what that says is that he is in control of this situation. He's played it out. He's planned the whole thing. And he's like, ah, shit, man, fuck that bit up. Next time I'll do better on that. Exactly. Why that bit is the bit that like really just struck me so hard when I was listening to it. When he starts to say, I never should. And then she starts to speak. So he stops and he says, I never should have given you so much to drink. People don't speak like that. People speak over each other in normal conversations, especially drunken conversations.

And so that argument of, is he just recording this because it's a conquest that he wants to hold on to, starts to kind of go out the window for me at this point, because why does that bit need to be so clear if it's just a conquest recording? It feels like more than that now. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the

launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery+. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial today.

I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mom's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now, exclusively on Wondery+. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him.

This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And in the 60 Minutes Australia interview, they play him this clip that we just played you guys. And Tosti says, quote, she was acting quirky.

And he says that it started off as just kind of play fighting and, you know, with all the kind of like physicality between them. But he says that it then got worse. Also during this clip, I just find it so cringe, like how on the nose he is when he points out things like, quote, I'm a nice fucking guy. And quote, I don't deserve this. It's like the hammiest acting. I hate how he says it. It's the tone of his voice that I find so, it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up the way he says these things and like don't deserve what it's because he keeps

being like oh you keep beating me up stop beating me up i don't deserve this like oh i see right yeah so after this initial fight there's again more drunk talk and although tosti keeps talking about her hitting him he seems calm and he's laughing about it, asking even at one point if he can cook her something to sober her up. I, like, really don't know what they're doing. It's like, two in the morning, why don't you just, like, go to sleep? Or why doesn't he just ask her to leave? Especially if he keeps going on about the fact that she keeps hitting him,

that she's too drunk. And there's weird points where he's saying things like, let me cook you something to sober you up. But then you can still hear drinks being poured. So he's not trying that hard. And if he's as bothered as he now says that he was, that she was acting weird or quote, quirky, why not insist that she leave? They'd already slept together. Like, why not just get rid of this girl who you think is acting crazy in your house? But instead, they talk for ages, and the conversation now turned to things like Greek myths. Wahey, my favourite! I know, they love it, they talk about it for ages.

And also, again and again and again, Tosti brings into the conversation how drunk Warina is. But again, you can hear him pouring drinks and giving them to her. Can't have been trying that hard to sober her up, even though he keeps saying, Doesn't sound like it. I shouldn't have given you so much to drink, and quote, we've had too much to drink. You hear that again and again and again. After the Greek Smiths chat, they're talking about Zeus. At one point, Tosti even calls himself God. Oh, come on, man.

I know. You can take all this and be like, oh, my God, he's a freak. And he is. There's something very, like, not good about him. But also, if people recorded me when I was drunk, I'd probably sound like a prick, too. I sound like a prick now. And people say that about Warina in particular because she does act a bit drunk at times. But I'm like, imagine if somebody... I would be, too, if I'd been drinking fucking 40 percent bathtub fucking vodka.

Exactly. Who even knows what percent that was? It's a fucking moonshine made by this alcoholic who's got you to his house. Like if someone followed me around with a phone recording me when I was drunk, I would sound like a prick, too. So like and she doesn't have a clue she's being recorded. That's so important when you're listening to her parts in these exchanges this particular exchange that i think um really made my ears prick up when i heard it okay okay I don't jump off. Unbelievable. All Warina says at this point is that she wanted to go out and have a look at the view from the balcony.

Why does he say, don't jump? And in that weird tone of false concern, like, oh, don't jump or anything, will you, while you're out there? It sounds so staged, or is it just me like it's so weird it's so hard to know because obviously as with everything we do we are looking at this with the with hindsight but it does seem you can't help when looking back on this transcript it seems like he's setting up something he's like very calculatedly dropping in these things and then maybe that's not what he's doing but it seems really difficult to think that that's not the case. So after this they have another 15 minutes or so of more drunk chat and more drinks are being poured and then we have this. You sound like a drug.

You sound like a fucking faggot. Oh, my God. Somebody help us. Your house. Oh, hey. I don't know. All right. What do you want? What do I have to do? No! What do you want? What do I have to do? Ow!

That's what I'm saying. Do what? Why don't you stand? Ow! What? Why don't you stand, dick? All right, I'm power, Jack. All right, I'll pass it on. Sam? I'm Sam.

I'm Sam. I'm Sam. Sam? I'm Sam. I'm about to ask them. What is it? Huh? What else? I'm just... I'm just... What do you have? You know what I mean.

What's that? Oh, I'll do what you want. What is it? It's actually... I'll be... It's actually obvious. Manchester! Who? I'm fucking kissing you fucking... Who's Manchester fucking...

Digger! Alright, let's go. Alright. I need to know. No seriously, I need to fucking shit. Alright, get it. Let's hear it. That's enough. That is more than enough. You want to eat muffin?

Get on my family. Oh. What? It's not a fact. You have to leave. Okay. It's okay. He knows. He's a good friend.

Let's go. He's a good friend. It's not about how you need. It's not about how... Yeah, it is. You're fucking insane. It's not about how you need. It's about how you can look at this ship now. Baby. I thought you were only kidding, but you're not.

You who? You who? Come on. Right now. I do need the C a lot of DNA. See, I thought you were kidding, and I've taken enough. This is fucking bullshit. You're lucky I haven't tried to cut off my fucking balcony, you goddamn psyching little bitch. Who the fuck do you think I am? Yeah, I'm taking a mini-tire now.

This is a weird bit of audio, because as you can hear, there's like weird muffled wrestling-like sounds, like they're sort of thrashing about, but there are also like huge bits of silence where no one is saying anything, or at least we're not hearing anything. During this clip you can also hear the sound of rocks

being thrown or played with or something and you can hear him saying ow, ow again and again. Now if you're wondering what these rocks are

essentially he has like a bowl of like decorative rocks in his house like for some reason. You love a rock bowl. I do love a rock ball but he does too little white rocks he's got in a bowl and um warina is playing with these at the very start

um of the audio recording and at this point it sounds like someone is throwing them it sounds like she's throwing them at him because he's the one going out but he's laughing he's joking along he's not really seeming to take it too seriously. You even heard in that clip him saying, OK, I'll bow down to you sexually, I'll be your slave sexually. It all seems a bit of a joke at this point. Yeah, it sounds like a playful, like, I mean, she shouldn't be throwing shit. She shouldn't be throwing shit, of course. And he does say that, you know, she was kind of acting crazy and doing that.

But I'm also like, maybe stop fucking plying her with moonshine. Maybe also, Warina, sort of stop drinking. But it doesn't sound like she's in control of any of this situation, though, to be honest. Which is completely the pickup artist vibe. If you haven't read the game and you are a woman, you should read it just to protect yourself against it doesn't happen so much anymore but there was definitely like a vibe from like 2011 through to like 2015 where it would happen all the time and if you know how to spot it it won't work on you so read it I would advise whole thing is about like manipulating women into sleeping with you by controlling

every aspect of the situation and that's what he's doing. Absolutely required reading. There you go. Yeah, it's still like we said, it still sounds like it's all a bit of a joke. Until the point where you hear Tosti say, you've worn out your welcome. At this point, he says that she has to leave. And you can hear Marina say, it's okay, it's all good, it's all good, it's okay. Like she's trying to placate the situation. Like she's trying to be like, it's okay, like all good it's all good it's okay like she's trying to placate the situation like she's trying to be like it's okay like fine I'm fine I'm just gonna go and it sounds at this stage

to me like Warina realizes that it's all gotten a bit out of hand maybe it was just a joke and maybe it went too far and maybe he was rough with her because you can hear that wrestling and if you think we're wrong, did you hear the quote? You're lucky I haven't chucked you off my balcony, you psycho bitch. Doesn't sound like it's all jokes anymore, does it? And in the interview now with the 60 Minutes Australia interview, Gable Toste says that it was just, quote, a horribly unfortunate choice of words,

and that it was a figure of speech and not a threat. It's not a figure of speech. I don't think he understands the figure of speech, figure of speech. You're lucky I haven't chucked you off my balcony, you psycho bitch. Yeah, oh, that old adage. Just a turn of phrase. Oh, my God. But the crucial thing is,

I make that four times that he's mentioned the balcony by this stage. And we're about an hour and 15 minutes into the recording that is three hours long. And not far off from Marina's death. Why does he keep talking about the balcony? First, he tells her her phone is out there. Then he tells her that when she wants to go out and look at the view, hey, don't jump. And why on earth does he say, I do need a sample of DNA? What? Pretty ominous. I think if anyone starts talking about DNA samples, maybe leave.

Unless they are a doctor or a, like, lab technician. Actually, Ruby said that Ruby, my housemate, went to a wedding the other day. And she met this guy who does, like, admin for, like, a cervical smear clinic. So he's like, whenever I go on a date, I'm always just like, have you gone? What excellent chat. Like, how's your cervix doing? But also go and get a smear clinic so he's like whenever i go on a date i'm always just like have you gone what excellent chat like how's your cervix doing but also go and get a smear so this clip is that we're gonna play you next is immediately following the exchange that you just heard we didn't jump forward we just paused what what What? That's it on the side? Say it.

Say it. What? I'm a sexist. I'm the one who's injured. And I have a goddamn scratch on you. Seriously. I don't... Seriously what?

Seriously what? I shouldn't have done that. Why not? Seriously what? What the hell is going on here? the fuck is that shit. Good damn sake. I'm gonna walk you out of this apartment. Just the way you are. You're not gonna collect any belongings or anything, you're just gonna walk out.

Come on, don't slam the door in here. You understand? Just try and pull anything. I'll knock you out. I'll knock you the fuck out. Do you understand? Do you understand? Do you understand? Come on, get up. Get up, fuck up, get up, okay, get up. You don't understand, do you?

You don't understand anything at all, do you? You don't understand. You don't understand, do you? You don't understand. You don't understand, damn. You just don't understand. Let go. You think you can get me? And I'll just fall down like in the movies? Hmm? Let go. Let go of it. Let go. Let go. Let go. Let go.

Let go. Let go. Let go. Let go. Let go. Let go. Let go. Let go.

Let go. Let go. Let go. Let go. Let go. Let go. Let go. Let go.

Let go. Let go. Let go. Let go. Let go. Let go. Let go. so So whatever the fuck is going on at this point, it's very, very clear that Tosti has total control over Warina. He sounds incredibly menacing at this point. It's not that clear in the recording, but Tosti says to Warina, got something to say, say it. And in case you couldn't hear, because it is very muffled,

Warina replied, you're a sexist. Why is she breathing like that? Why does she sound so muffled? Sounds like he's choking her or gagging her. It really sounds like he's got his hand over her mouth and he's asking her to speak. We also don't really hear why she calls him a sexist specifically. So again, it makes me think,

is this in reference to something that happened earlier in the night or is he cutting the recording in and out then there's the whole i'm going to walk you out of this apartment just the way you are if you try and pull anything i'll knock you the fuck out and again this feels quite staged and it's not like and if it's not and and he's being serious, why doesn't he just do what he says? Why doesn't he just take her out the front door and walk her out the apartment? He's a big guy.

If he wanted to just pick her up and put her outside, he could have done. And spoiler, he does pick her up and take her outside, but not outside his front door. At this point, you also hear Warina saying, I'm so sorry. Because I think maybe, you know, they were play fighting. Maybe she was like throwing rocks or punching him or whatever. But like, you know, you can tell from his tone that he was okay with it up until a certain point. And I think maybe she realized quite quickly, fuck, this has gone in totally a different direction. But Tosti, despite her apologizing, continues with being incredibly aggressive. And there are more very labored breathing sounds. But Tosti, despite her apologising, continues with being incredibly aggressive.

And there are more very laboured breathing sounds. And it sounds like somebody being suffocated or choked. And the other question I have is why is there so much silence? Tosti keeps saying on the recording, let go, let go. But we can't hear her saying anything. And he says now that he was saying let go because she had picked up a metal clamp and that she was using it to attack him. But we just hear suffocated breathing. If she was attacking him, why can't we hear the sound of her attacking him? It's just him speaking, Marina wheezing and silence. So it kind of sounds to me like he's just got her she's wheezing and he's just shouting let go so

that he can later say it was her attacking him no it's i i don't believe that what is actually happening is what he is presenting as fact yeah i think that's as far as i can go to confirm anything on that no that's a very that's a safe and good answer though. Safe and good with Hannah McGuire. Now there's a very interesting part of this recording that we're going to play in the next clip. Again, it follows immediately on from the previous clip. We haven't jumped forward. Have a listen. This is probably one of the most crucial bits of the recording and it does get quite distressing, especially towards the end, so fair warning. Who the fuck do you think you are? No! Hm? No! No! No!

You're trying to kill me, huh? No! Why'd you try to hit me with that? No! Huh? No! No! No!

No! No! No! What the fuck is your mouth? No! No! No! No!

No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! No! Okay, I know there's a lot to take in in that clip. It's like two minutes almost of audio that you've just heard. But there's one particular point that I want to draw everyone's attention to because I haven't seen anybody else really talk about this. There's one point where you hear a thud and then the sound of whooshing. And to me, that whooshing really sounds like wind. I even tried this. I got my phone, was recording in the house and then went outside and the sound of the wind out there sounded exactly like that. And Tosti says, later on, we'll talk about this in detail, that the balcony door was open and that's why it was easier for him to drag Warina out there.

Bollocks. No. To me, I feel like that thud was the thud of the balcony door being opened and then that sudden whoosh. Let's listen one more time now that tosti is once again in total control his whole narrative in interviews now is that he was scared of her and he just wanted her to leave his flat but in the recording warina is begging justina is begging, just let me go home, just let me go home. And in fact, those are her last words. He doesn't let her go home. He says,

I would, but you have been a bad girl. And that is followed by the sound of the balcony door sliding shut and a faint scream moments later. When confronted with this audio clip in the interview, Tosti says, I just wanted her to stop. I was scared. I told her at that point it was enough and I wanted her to leave. So why does he not get her to leave? He's six foot three. Warina is five foot four

and she's been drinking all night his like fucking toilet wine. And if he was that scared of her, surely he could have just walked her out picked her up shoved her out of his front door and closed it but he doesn't and also he admits now in interviews that he managed to restrain warina twice he says quote the first time i wrestled her to the floor i thought she'd leave but when i let her go she grabbed a metal clamp and was threatening me with it i wanted her to leave but she didn't so for the second time I grabbed and restrained her picked her up and carried her to the balcony. He says that the balcony door was open and closer than the front door and that's why he took her

there rather than push her out the front door. Firstly going back to the clip that we just played with the thud and the sound of the whooshing sounds to me like he opened the balcony door and like it wasn't already open, but whatever. And also, it doesn't even make any sense, even if it was closer and open. If you were saying you just desperately wanted for Warina to leave, and you are that in control that you've managed to restrain her twice, why, what's an extra few feet to drag her to your front door? Yeah, it doesn't seem particularly plausible, does it?

And in the interview now, Tosti keeps saying that he was scared. But come on, to me in that recording, he doesn't sound scared, ever. He sounds angry. And I, for one, am starting to build quite a reasonable doubt about this. So let's consider Warina's screaming. Even though Warina is smashed, why is she screaming like that? Just from being placed, according to Tosti, on the floor of the balcony? the railings and left her dangling, hanging on for her life. And then he left her, shut the balcony door and went back into his apartment. Tosti says now in the interview

yet again that he didn't hear the scream as Warina fell from the balcony. It's been recorded on your phone and we can hear it in the audio. How are you saying that you didn't hear it? And the scream we hear as Warina falls is crucial. It happens so quickly after we hear the balcony door close. So with Gable Tosti's testimony now, what he's asking us to believe is that he shoved Warina out onto the balcony and closed the door. And within seconds of this, she was so hysterical that either she jumped or tried to climb down from a 14-storey balcony. Apparently, all of this without ever banging on the balcony door

or demanding to be let back in and allowed to leave. Why is she screaming, just let me go home, but doesn't once try and open the balcony door? Because you never hear that and you never want to hear her banging on the glass. Why? Sounds almost like she can't get to the balcony door, doesn't it? And also listening to the screaming. The, like, urgency, the way in which she's screaming. It sounds to me like a woman screaming because she's desperately terrified.

Even if by this point she is just out on the balcony floor and scared of Tosti because, you know, he choked her or got a bit rough with her. The way she's screaming doesn't sound like that. It sounds to me like someone who's screaming in immediate fear like the kind of fear one might have if they were hanging onto a railing dangling 14 stories in the sky holding on for dear life i think that you can quite immediately i think fear is a very genuine emotion and i think that you can hear it in the way that someone is talking i think it's a very recognizable thing is what i'm trying to say and And to me, the way she is screaming, I think you're absolutely right. It's like it's not she's not joking. She's not doing it for attention. She's genuinely terrified. And it's not just I'm drunk and screaming. It is like a visceral.

My life is in danger. Yeah. Level of fear. And also it is my life is in immediate danger. Because if you say like people say she was just scared of Tosti. he's not anywhere near her at this point. He's inside the flat. She's screaming like he had a knife to her throat. And he doesn't because we know he's not there. So whilst Warina is falling to her death back inside the flat, Tosti is thinking of what to do next. We have more audio from this moment.

We're going to play it for you guys. Please note that what you're about to hear occurred 35 seconds after we hear Warina's final scream. 35 seconds. And also remember that to this day, Tosti still claims that he didn't hear Warina's scream as she fell. Oh, shit. Hi, the person you have called is not available. Please leave a short 10-second message after the tone. That will send the message as a text. That wasn't Tosti calling emergency services and bizarrely getting a voicemail.

That was him putting in a call to his lawyer, who's called Mick Purcell. After this failed attempt to call his lawyer, it's like 2am, let's remember. So what was he expecting? What kind of lawyer is on like 24 hours? Anyway, the recording is still running, but you don't hear anything except his breathing

and him just saying fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck for ages. And then you hear him getting changed and then it sounds like he's outside. Within six minutes of Woreena falling from his balcony, Gable Tosti had got changed and left his flat and no, not going to call for help. He hasn't even checked the balcony to see what has happened. That's a weird thing to do, especially if you claim you only left her out on the balcony floor. It seems like he's treating her fall as like this total inevitability, like he doesn't even check and that's why his story is so bizarre.

Like if you were afraid of her and you're putting her out on the balcony, why would you call your lawyer and not check? And also if you're saying you haven't heard the screams, but presumably she's not making any noise anymore, so why aren't you going to go and check to see what has happened if something's happened? He doesn't do any of those things because he fucking knows because he threw her off. Spoilers, anyway.

Exactly. It's that whole point of the fact that he never ever goes out there to check what has happened, but he seems to know that something has happened and he fucking gets out of that flat within six minutes. How does he know for sure? He was so sure that something has happened if he just left her out on the balcony and closed the door. It seems like a crazy leap to make in your mind

that that's what would have happened. Oh, like any normal person, she's jumped and it was just a, you know, what a shame that I locked her out there. But like a normal person that would have done that in that situation she's gone and fucking jumped. Whoops. CCTV from this time frame also shows us something interesting when Tosti got to the ground floor of his building he could see flashing lights of the emergency services that by this point had arrived thanks to his neighbours. When he saw them he backtracked into the building and left via a

back exit through the car park in the basement. You can hear him walking around for about an hour once he's out of the flat. It's up ten past three in the morning by this stage. And he says, um, a slice of supreme pizza, please. Is he serious? And then you hear him walking around for a bit longer. And then at 3.23, Tosti made another call and again it's not to the police or to a hospital to check if Warina is alive. This time he calls his dad.

Hello dad. I might have a bit of a situation. See I met up with a girl for a date tonight. And she started getting really aggressive. Like, I was alright at first, and, like, we, you know, had sex in bed. And then, after that, like, she kept drinking. And we were both drinking. And she, like, I think she thought it was, like, a joke or something, but she kept, like, beating me up and whatever.

Yeah, and, um, it was because she was really drunk. And, um, like, I forced her out on the balcony and I think she might have jumped off. Like, I'd probably forced her out on the balcony. And I think she might have jumped off. Like, I've been walking around in there, like, milling cups around my building. I'm fucked. I don't know what to do. Eh? Like, where? I didn't cause this.

Like, I didn't push her or anything. I just... No, no. I'm, like, just walking around the area. There's, like, a million cops around the area. It's really fucked up. I'm, like, next to Domino's. I mean, he walks around for an hour.

He hasn't called emergency services. He doesn't know if Aurina's dead or alive or technically what's even happened, according to him. But he goes to get a fucking slice of pizza and call his dad. OK, the pizza thing, he goes into... I read in places it was a Domino's. Do Domino's sell pizzas by the slice? I didn't know that. Maybe they do in Australia. Maybe they do. I'm sure someone will tell us. Yeah, it's that he goes in there and he says, um, a slice of supreme pizza.

He's thinking about which fucking flavour of pizza he wants. How, I just don't understand how you could eat in that kind of situation. Like, if I'm under any kind of stress, I'm like, mm- i'm like nope and i also find the phone call to his dad very weird like why is he explaining everything like he tells him everything in like such detail and he does it all so calmly and why does his dad seem so chill it's like half past three in the morning by this point you get a call from your son and he tells you this fucking crazy story and you're just like, um, okay, I'll come get you. Like, what? Also, I think it's interesting that he's still recording everything. Weird. Maybe he forgot to turn the recording off. But to me, it kind of still feels again, very intentional. Why else explain everything to his

dad like that right there and then? He can just call him and say, come pick me up, Dad, and can explain it when he gets home. But no, he explains it all on the phone while it's all still recording. Why? But his dad, Grey Tosty, he says later about the call that his son was really drunk and sounded confused. You guys just heard the call to his dad. Did he sound confused to you? He doesn't sound confused to me he didn't even sound drunk to me nope no he sounds very like clear and considered and like this is this is the crack this is what's happened all of tosti's behavior throughout the night and that

call to his dad to me really calls into question a his innocence and b if you don't even want to like consider his innocent fucking at least his character, right? That is part one of the case of Gable Tostey and Warina Wright. We will be back next week with part two and it's going to get even more interesting. So be sure to stay tuned for that. Buy your tour tickets if there are any left, if you're in Glasgow or London or Cardiff. And we'll see you on the road or next week and in the meantime you can follow us on social media at red handed the pod which will probably be pretty hilarious because we're going to be spending the next

fucking two weeks on a train so we'll have a lot of time so on to the patreon thank you so thank you so much Lauren HR, Maritza Ashgari, Blake Newworth, Kelly Cohen, Claire Hugh, Shannon Thank you. Kristen with an I, Raven, Kim Hess, Bryn Walker, Jordan Ruth, Amber Peterson, Rebecca White, Siobhan McCormack, Molly, Christina Haymeyer, Pekka Huseman, Rosemary Robertson, Bernadette Bridgend, Linnea Sidekorn, yeah, we'll go with that, sorry Linnea. Chloe Stachowiak. Oh my God, Chloe, I'm so sorry. Stachowiak, I think. Brianna Ellsworth, Emma Hayes, Amy, Mallory Robinson, Melissa Vetterotti, Samantha Rorman, Kimberly A. Choney, Ben McNamara,

Victoria Tucker, Jen Aobe, I think. Ashley, Emily Morrow-Fick, Lee, Fee, Fee, Lyle, Jamie York, Nora Hogan, Stacia Lewis, Stacia, interesting name. That's probably totally not how I say it, but I think that's how I say it. Shannon Bachman, oh God,L-H-A-N, I think. Caitlin, Michael Dykes, Melissa Lazier, Lazar? Yep. Laura Roddy, JJ Han, Bambi Haggins, Michelle Hawkins, Lucy Jenner, Kim Garcia, Kristen Singer, Maury Jane,

Bebe Hook, Alyssa Rios, and Sean Re Perez. Thank you guys so much, and as as ever we will see you next week you you Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudian Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On the Media.

To listen, subscribe to On the Media wherever you get your podcasts. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey.

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