RedHanded - Episode 119 - LIVE from Shoreditch House: Halloween Special Part 2 - Ghost Pirates & Tree Surgeons

Episode Date: October 31, 2019

In this second instalment of Halloween at RedHanded the girls come to you live from London’s Shoreditch House with tales of a mysterious ghost ship and a killer with a penchant for all things tree.  Join Hannah and Suruthi as they ask the important questions like: could it have been aliens? What’s the perfect squirrel ice lolly recipe? And what even was WW1?  Get your spooky bitch merch (international shipping available): redhandedshop.com   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Ready? Fucking hell.

Hi! Hi! There's so many of you! Hi! Oh wow, there are so many of us. Welcome to Red Handed Live from Shoreditch House! Makes noise! Hi guys, I'm Hannah.

I'm Saruti. And welcome to the show. And we're not just like welcome to Red Handed Live from Shoreditch House. You obviously know that you're here and where you are. We are recording this because it's going to go out as an episode tomorrow. So that's the reason we're speaking kind of lately. But later than usual because I'll be home every Wednesday. Iawn, eithaf. Pwy sy'n gwrando bob tro? Nid yw unig.

Pwy ddim yn gwybod yn siŵr y byddym ni? Iawn, mae'n dda. Ac maen nhw'n golygu. Rwy'n hoffi hynny. Mae'n dda. Rydych chi'n ymwneud â'i ddysgu? Ie. Yr unig un yma o fewn y cyfnod?

Gwylwch os ydych yn anodd. Ben. Rydych chi'r menyn tech. Efallai y byddwch chi yma. Sut y gallwch chi'i weld yn gwylwch o'r ôl? a duress. Blink if you're in trouble. Ben. You're the tech man. You could have been. How can you see him blinking from back there? No, he's his hand.

Well, we're so thrilled to have you all here. For those of you who don't know who we are, we are obviously Red Handed, the podcast. We are a true crime podcast. Hannah and I met about three years ago now? I think so, yeah. I just keep losing track even though we keep having to tell people when we met. met about three years ago now? I think so, yeah. I just keep losing track even though we keep having to tell people when we met.

Met about three years ago at a party at Hannah's house. Didn't know her. Met her there. We got drunk. We talked about JonBenet Ramsey. That classic party favourite. That's a weird reaction, guys. To the murder of a small child.

It was weirder that we were talking about it in front of small children. Yeah, actual children. That was quite strange. And the man who introduced us is here tonight, Dami Fajobi. Yes, Dami Fajobi. Yay! The man who made Red Handed happen.

So embarrassed. So, yeah, we started the show about two and a half years ago, and we just didn't think it would really... We just thought it would be like a fun hobby to do and now we're both full-time on the show and it's thanks to you guys who listen. So yeah, round of applause to yourselves. Yay!

So we've just done our UK tour. We're fresh off the back of that. This is a different show to the tour show and if you listen to the show, you'll know that we do Halloween quite differently and this is a Halloween special. the tour show and if you listen to the show you'll know that we do halloween quite differently and this is a halloween special so usually on the show we'll take one case and we'll split it up between us and just go through one but for halloween what we do is we both pick a story and we don't tell the other one what it is so really fantastic format for a live show that we have not rehearsed at all

but hopefully we'll pull it off yeah I think so I've rehearsed it in my bedroom I recorded myself saying it and listened to it around the house today I also realized when I got here and looked at your notes that you printed it in a far larger font than I did yeah that's what I do for the shows which was an error because um yeah it's gonna be tough to read this but I'm gonna try so it's all good guys so yeah we just wanted to also say a big thank you to Ruby and Maria wherever they are where are they I can't see from here for inviting us to come do this so thank you guys friends of the show we're super super excited about it so should we kick off I think so it's your turn to go first so I'm just going to sit

back so I'm going to tell Hannah the story and obviously you guys the story she hasn't heard it I'm hoping that you haven't heard it either I'd only discovered it quite recently and if you guys' story. She hasn't heard it. I'm hoping that you haven't heard it either. I'd only discovered it quite recently. And if you know when we do the Halloween shows, we have to dig around quite a lot to try and find a grisly case. I actually found this on a BuzzFeed list which I was pleasantly surprised about. I know, I know.

Imagine my surprise. I usually avoid them because they're like, oh, 100 killers you don't know about. Number one, Jeffrey Dahmer. Exactly. I didn't try me. I know.

I got desperate. I got desperate. And I was like, let's 100 killers you don't know about. Number one, Jeffrey Dahmer. Exactly. I'm going to try me. I know. I got desperate. I got desperate. And I was like, let's see. Let's see what they're saying. So I'm just going to dive right in, right? A little after midnight. So good already. I know, isn't it?

He really makes it easy for me. Okay. On the 9th of November, 2011, a 30-year-old man named Matthew Hoffman crept into the woods opposite a remote house in Knox County, Ohio. It's always in Ohio. Isn't it always in Ohio? And obviously, Ohio, November, it's pretty cold. He's wrapped up in a sleeping bag. He crawls into these woods.

He's there for the long haul. And he spends the entire night there. Sorry, question. Sorry, guys. Good. No, go for it. So he's in a cabin. No, no, no. And he spends the entire night there. Sorry, question already. Good, no, go for it. So he's in a cabin? No, no, no. He's in the wild? He's actually in the literal woods.

Okay, well, it's probably his own fault then. Yeah. I mean, he's there to stalk this house. Oh, okay, sorry. Or not stalk the house, stalk the people, the inhabitants of this house. Right, okay. So, scene set.

We're in rural Ohio. Hi, I feel like you're already struggling to keep up. This is going to be a long evening. This is why we do our cases together. Right, okay. So, scene set. We're in rural Ohio. I feel like you're already struggling to keep up. This is going to be a long evening. This is why we do our cases together. Okay, okay. We're in rural Ohio. This house, there's not many other houses around. Just on its own, this man creeps into the woods with his sleeping bag,

and he's watching the house. Okay, I'm with you. That's his whole bag that evening. So he spends a whole night there watching and he falls asleep at some point and he wakes up at about 9 a.m and he sees a woman walk out of the house and get into the car and drive away and when he'd fallen asleep there were two cars in the driveway but now both of them are gone so he feels the house is empty so he sneezes his chance and he sneaks into the house. And he enters through a garage door that's not been closed properly.

A what? A garage door that's not been closed properly. I even really thought about it before I said it. Oh, God. It's bullying. That's what it is. So Hoffman would later claim that he snuck into the house because he was going to rob the people who lived there i don't know if i totally believe that because firstly this is in a very like middle

to lower income area of ohio it's not like a rich person's house that's in the remote countryside it's just a normal family's house why would you spend all night in the woods buying on a house to steal from like an average to quite low-income family it doesn't really make any sense well he's only got a sleeping bag he also has his own house that's right okay sorry so it's not exclusively the sleeping bag no and he's not stealing from people like in higher socioeconomic circumstances than himself right so it's a weird situation but we do come on to find out how little he does actually earn, but that's for later. And if his real intentions were just robbery,

the evening definitely does take a wrong turn somewhere because he ends up murdering three people and abducting a teenager. Exactly, exactly. So he enters the house and he said in his later confession that he started to look for valuables. So like cash, jewellery, anything that he could sort of run off with just in his pockets. That was his whole plan. And he's in there for like an hour looking around for things. Does it take that long?

The house isn't that big. Again, makes me suspicious that he's there for other reasons. Or looking for something extremely specific. And I think I know what he's looking for. Oh, okay. Yeah. So he's in the house for like an hour when suddenly he hears a car pull up into the driveway.

It's the lady who had left earlier and her name is Tina Herman and she's coming back to the house. And Hoffman said before this happened that he was really excited at the thought of being in someone's house when they weren't there. Like that was really like doing it for him and didn't last long because Tina came home and ruined the party somewhat so Tina as we said is the woman who lives in this house and she

lives there with her two children they will come into play later so as Hoffman heard Tina come into the house he realized that he was trapped because he had worked his way all the way through this house and he was in like a back bedroom and he realized that he couldn't get come into the house, he realised that he was trapped because he had worked his way all the way through this house and he was in like a back bedroom. And he realised that he couldn't get out of the house without like breaking a window, drawing more attention to himself. Apparently he's scared of heights now. I don't know. But he decides not to try

and escape and instead he pulls out the knife that he had brought with him. Okay. Again, why bring in a knife with you if it's just a standard? Knife and a sleeping bag. Knife and a sleeping bag. So his possessions are going up. Just the essentials. Right. So at this point, Tina heads into the bedroom and she's obviously terrified to see this man standing there with a knife. Hoffman says that he panicked and he grabbed

Tina and he pushed her onto the bed and got on top of her. At this point he says that he tried to knock Tina out by hitting her in the head so that she would just stop screaming and that he could escape. But what he wasn't expecting was that immediately after Tina had entered and hearing her screams, Tina's friend and neighbour, Stephanie Sprang, ran into the house and ran into the bedroom. Now Hoffman's got two women to deal with, and he says he doesn't know what to do. And this is where it's going to start getting kind of grim.

It is true crime, guys. We all know what we signed up for. He stabs Tina, who's on the bed with him. And then Stephanie, obviously, by this point, is making a run for the front door. So Hoffman chases her down, but he manages to corner her into a bedroom. And at this point, in that bedroom, unfortunately, he also stabbed Stephanie to death. And then he goes back and he makes sure that Tina is gone and he does. And also at this point he says that there's a dog that's barking really loudly

so he has to stab the dog to death. Exactly. I knew that that was going to happen. No one cares about the people There's a dead dog in mine as well. They're just so sad about the dead dog. And so he stabs the dog to death. I couldn't find the name of the dog. It's very tragic though. It's very sad. Do you know what kind of dog it was? death. I couldn't find the name of the dog.

It's very tragic though. It's very sad. Do you know what kind of dog it was? No, I don't even know. I think it's, I think we'll call it a Jack Russell. We'll say, you guys don't know.

You don't know. I couldn't even find it and I actually looked so we'll say it's a Jack Russell. They do big barking. Terry the Jack Russell has been stabbed to death. And obviously this is all very grim now because I've just killed two women and killed a dog.

You personally. I personally have done that through my illuminating storytelling. And it sadly does continue to get worse throughout this case. Otherwise you would be like, what the fuck, Sruti? Is that all you've got? But since it is a live show, I do feel kind of awkward about just talking about horrible things. I feel like it's easier when it's just like a mic

in my bedroom. So to keep it fun, whenever I say something particularly grisly, I'm going to follow it up with a fun tree fact. And you'll see why because, spoiler, it's a very tree-heavy case from me tonight.

Great. It is. It doesn't come into play until, like, basically the end, but it'll be worth it, I guarantee. And I've written that, and then I haven't written my fun tree. Do you want to try one? No, I've got some.

No, that's one of them. I'm just going to steal this one, and you guys are just going to, why did I do that? That's so weird of me. Okay, right. This is a really fun tree fact, actually. Are you ready?

Did you know that in Florida, there stood a tree nicknamed the Senator? Right. And it was, in fact, the oldest and biggest bald cypress tree in the world. But in 2012, a woman high on meth climbed inside the tree and burnt it down. The oldest, baldest, oldest,

biggest bald cypress tree. She took a load of meth, got inside it and burned it to the ground. In Florida? Yeah. Have you seen that tweet that's like, oh, they should do a zoo but with white people. And they're like florida come on oh god good we'll keep this out of any of the florida shows that we ever do but yeah you're going to florida on your own mate so that was my fun tree fact we are now missing one from later on when something grisly happens so

i'll just say the senator and you can all laugh again because I've only got three fun facts. I thought I had more than that. It's fine. So Hoffman says that at this point, now that he's killed these two women and Terry, the Jack Russell, he goes into a state of shock and he says that he didn't know what to do next.

But for someone who's saying that he's in a state of shock, he did think pretty fast on his feet. And he decided pretty quickly that he was going to have to get rid of the bodies why why wouldn't you just like wipe up your fingerprints or anything that you've touched and just leave he's not connected in any way to this family he's just sort of chosen this house and he's broken and he's killed these people why would you decide that you have to sort of get rid of the bodies wouldn't you just piss off i don't know is that seemed weird to me that he does that i think yeah probably if

he's got no connection to them at all or maybe he's just having a bit of a panic that's certainly how i'd feel after killing a dog and two people i mean you would wouldn't you but i'd be like panic and then you'd be fine and then leave but i panic i panickedly leave. I wouldn't panickedly try to dispose of three bodies. So he decides that he's going to have to get rid of these bodies. And for whatever reasons that he chose to do this, Hoffman then embarked on the morbid process of dismembering Stephanie and Tina. And they never actually mentioned the dog,

so maybe the dog as well, I don't know. Definitely the dog as well. It's true crime. It's true crime, let's go. And he placed their remains into some black bin liners, and he placed them into Tina's car. So he's walked there. He doesn't live very far, he's got into the woods,

but he's like, I killed her, I'm just going to take her station wagon, or whatever she's got. He puts their bodies into there. And this takes him quite some time. just going to take her station wagon or whatever she's got he puts their bodies into there and this takes him like quite some time and during this time he suddenly hears more voices yeah it is obviously tina's kids coming home from school and again for a man who's apparently and most definitely really actually not apparently been stalking this family. Why doesn't he know what time school home time is? I feel like he's waiting.

Why would you wait? Why would you piss about with the bodies there? Surely, well, yeah. He's like dismembering them in her own house. Maybe he didn't know she had kids. Nah. He knows. How long has he been watching?

We don't. He says that he wasn't watching them, and he says it was like an opportunistic attack. That he brought a sleeping bag to? That he brought a sleeping bag to, that he brought a knife to, and then also the stuff we find that he has at the house. Like, no, this isn't like an opportunistic,

out of nowhere attack, in my opinion. And also the thing that you said, he's looking for something very specific. Well, I think it's one of the kids. Okay. Exactly. You're right to gasp so we here's the kids voices and one of the kids is 13 year old Sarah and 11 year

old Cody and they're both Tina's children and they were home from school so they walk in and again here is a man with a knife standing in the house because he doesn't try to hide he doesn't try to sort of hide until they're sort of in their bedrooms and then he can just get into Tina's car and drive away he confronts them immediately like as soon as they walk in the house because he doesn't try to hide. He doesn't try to sort of hide until they're sort of in their bedrooms and then he can just get into Tina's car and drive away. He confronts them immediately, like as soon as they walk in the door. And this is a really sad bit. So Sarah obviously freaks out and she runs to her bedroom and slams the door. Cody freezes.

Yeah. And Matthew Hoffman stabs 11-year-old Cody to death. And this is where I did have another fun fact that I don't have one anymore so you're just going to have to wait for it, just save it until later because you're going to need it. Just keep feeling horrible about the dead kids from it. Just keep feeling really sad about everything

I know and after he had stabbed Cody in the chest and was sure that he had died he went and he forced himself into Sarah's bedroom. And there is obviously this terrified 13-year-old girl in there. But he said that when he saw her, he couldn't bring himself to kill her.

So he took her. And what happens next? Well, next, as in in a bit, is really quite bizarre and is probably the most bizarre bit of the story. But before we get there, let's talk a little bit about who Matthew Hoffman actually is. So Hoffman is 30 years old and he's an unemployed tree surgeon. And by most accounts, quote, according to his neighbours, a real weirdo. That's their, those are his, their words for him.

Has anyone ever been a normal tree surgeon? I don't know. I also wanted to use the proper word. There were people being like, he's a tree tremor or something. And I was like, I don't know. Is it tree surgeon? I thought you were going to come up with some like Latin name. I know, I know. They were just like a man who cuts trees for a living.

But yeah, but he doesn't like cut them down like a lumberjack. So I think it's tree surgeon. We'll go with that. Now, we don't actually know too much about Hoffman's childhood. There isn't really that much information about him growing up or about his background. But what we do know is that he was born on the 1st of November, 1980. And he was described by his teachers and by people who knew him as quite an intelligent kid. But one, quote, without a lick of common sense.

Even as a child, apparently. Kids don't have loads in general. But it followed him into adulthood. That was the problem. That was the problem. And according to everybody, Hoffman was absolutely obsessed with trees. Yeah. And his neighbours say that

he would climb into trees and he would freak them out because he would sit in these trees and they felt like he was spying on them. Well, probably. Probably, yeah, probably. I think he loves the trees, but I think he also loves to spy on people. Is that really why he was in there? It was just like sleeping with the trees?

I mean, we'll talk about that. And many also worried because he would do weird things like start small fires on his own property. And they'd be like, my house is quite close to yours, actually. Do not want to start little fires everywhere. And also, Hoffman would be seen in the local area. He was quite a well-known man. He'd be seen in the local area doing things like catching and trapping squirrels. And one of his neighbors actually said, quote, well, of course he's catching squirrels to eat. I've never once seen him do a grocery shop.

Because he was eating them. Just spoilers, like he was eating these squirrels. I know, I really enjoy this neighbour. She's like, well, not once have I ever seen him go to Costco. I don't know, whatever. Now, in 2001, so at the age of 21, Hoffman had been convicted of theft, burglary and first degree arson. Nonetheless, for his first ever offence.

I didn't know there were degrees of arson. How do you accidentally arson? Yeah, I guess intent. Yeah. If you're just like fucking about and you start a fire or a candle and you knock it over. Is that arson? I don't know. Maybe.

We'll find out. Depends how much they burn down. But no, he very much intended to start this fire because his whole back, his whole MO is that he'll go commit burglaries and thefts and other sorts of crime, and then he'll start a fire to cover up the crime. So that's his whole type of arson that he's into. And he actually caused, during this fire, $2 million worth of damage. And he landed into and he actually caused during this fire two million dollars worth of damage and he landed himself eight years in prison at 21 so he gets out like about in his late

in like 29 30 almost but clearly that time in prison hadn't really helped him get his behaviors under control or sort his issues out because within a year of being released he is of course sat outside tina herman's house in a sleeping bag. So he's not okay. So after he left the Herman house, Hoffman took the dismembered bodies of Tina and Stephanie and the dog, why not? And also, and Cody, sorry by now because he's also killed the brother, and also a very much still alive 13-year-old Sarah. And he took them back to his house, which was, as I said, just about a 10-minute drive away. When he got there, he tied Sarah up in the basement of his house. And he knew that he needed to get rid of the bodies, the dismembered body bits that he's got.

So we left Sarah in the basement and he drove to a place called Foundation Park, which was, again, he's really not that smart. It's really close to his house. It's not very far at all. But he takes them to Foundation Park, and what he did with them, we'll come back to later. But at this point, Hoffman must have thought that he was in the clip. He's committed some crimes, he's committed some murders, but with a family that he's completely unrelated to. He's taken the bodies with them. He's taken the only surviving witness.

He probably thinks everything's fine, but it was far from fine because the very next day, so the murders are committed on the Wednesday. On the Thursday, Tina hadn't turned up to work and her boss, very conscientiously, I I thought come straight to her house after one day that is conscientious worked at a Dairy Queen maybe they have a very good life she just doesn't come to work that morning and he comes straight over and so the boss comes over and he looks at the house obviously there is a lot of blood everywhere so he does the right thing and he calls the police. Terrible day at Dairy Queen.

I know. Can you imagine? I don't think that's what he was expecting to find when he went. He's like, imagine he's been doing these welfare checks for years when employees don't turn up and he just finds them hung over or sat around in their pants pretending to be ill and she's actually been murdered. There's just like blood

everywhere and like all the kids are gone so obviously with an entire family now missing and a shitload of blood in the house the police start like a nationwide missing persons investigation into this it's obviously incredibly high risk so this is really what fucks Matthew Hoffman over is how quickly the boss went into action and how quickly this investigation came about. So Hoffman realised that he went to the house and he realised that the police were swarming everywhere. So he realises, shit the house is gone. Like I don't even know

what I left there. Because his whole plan was, because he'd taken Tina's car, was to drive back with Tina's car and set the whole thing on fire that evening. That was going to be his plan. So he's like, shit the only thing I now have left is the car. And it directly ties me back to what's happened here. So he's parked the car on like a little bike trail near Kenyon Canyon, which is quite hard to say. Kenyon Canyon. Kenyon Canyon. So he's like, shit, I better get to the car before the police realize that that is also

there. But when he gets there, guess who's there? The dog. It's the police. Okay. So they had already found Tina's car, which I think is just like, there is really some very, very good police work that goes on in this whole case. So police have already found Tina's car. And this is what I love about this. They didn't just take the car and start processing it. They leave it where it is and they lay in wait. Because they know this is a huge bit of evidence. They're going to return to the scene of the crime and they know we're all over the house.

Genius, I thought. So just laying in wait. This bit, not so much. Because as soon as he approaches the car, they jump all over him. And I'm like, wait until he tries to move the car, you know? But they don't. So they question him immediately, even though they don't really have any connection other than the fact that he's near this car in quite a secluded bike trail. And Matthew Hoffman, he has a reason for why he's there. He says that his girlfriend works at the nearby Kenyon Arms, which is like a little hotel. And he says he was just waiting for her to finish and he

just looked at this car like, okay. But they take his details and they let him go because they don't really have much else to hold him. So the police then carry on taking apart the Herman home. And this is when they found another great bit of police work, I thought. They found a Walmart bag filled with two huge tarps and also a load of heavy-duty black bin liners. And they were like, this is kind of strange. I don't know why they thought it was strange, because I was also like, that could legitimately just be in a house.

But they think that this is really strange. Strange enough that they go to the local walmart and they check the cctv i only buy shit bin bags because i'm scared if i buy the heavy duty ones they're gonna think that i'm disposing of a body i mean they might if these police force are onto it because they they actually go to the walmart i would say that's completely like my concern. Confirmed all of your suspicions that they've got you with that nectar card watching you. Don't have a nectar card.

So they watch the CCTV and when they check the CCTV footage, bingo, there's the man they spoke to on the bike trail the day before. They've got their man. It's obviously him. So the urgency was obviously on to find and catch Matthew Hoffman at this point not only had he possibly killed everyone in the house the other thing is

that investigators had seen in the mud outside the house alongside Hoffman's a woman's or a girl's footprint in the mud with him like it was leaving the house so So now they were worried, were one of the women, so either Stephanie, Tina or Sarah still alive? And had he taken them? Obviously, yes, but they don't know this. So the urgency really is like sort of ramped up that they need to find this man. And they were about to find out whether this person was still alive or not, because on the 14th of November at 8am the police raided Matthew Hoffman I've forgotten what his name was actually

something Hoffman these are the kind of things we would edit out and you guys would never hear it let's just call him Hoffman they raid Hoffman's home and the SWAT officers stormed the house and they threw in flash grenades.

So they're like taking this guy pretty seriously. They want to daze him. They want to like, you know, incapacitate him. But Hoffman's just like asleep on the sofa. He's not even that together. He's like tired from all of his... And guilty men sleep. They always say like when you take them into the holding cell, an innocent man will not sleep. A guilty

man will. This is true. Because he knows it's over. Criminal minds spread that. Yeah. So when the police go in, they realize that the living room is barely furnished. Again, he's got very few possessions. You were right. You spotted it early on. He's just got a sofa and like some cardboard boxes around and some squirrels and some squirrels. Well, we'll come back to those. And he's asleep on the sofa and they pretty easily sort of apprehend him. He doesn't put up much of a fight. And because there were so few things in this living room, the authority's eyes are quickly drawn to a room that was just off the right of the main room. And so they walk

into this room. And when they did, their mouths fell open because this room was absolutely full of leaves. Hear me out. So we're not just talking like some leaves scattered on the floor. Thousands and thousands of leaves piled high in massive mounds to like the ceiling of this room. And not only that, the walls of every single inch of this room covered in plastic bags filled with leaves. Like he's just gone and got plastic bags, stuffed them with leaves

and just taped them in very, very neat rows on every inch of the room. Like specific leaves in specific bags? I don't know. They never mentioned that, but it looks like insulation. That's what he's made it look like. And also just piles and piles of leaves all over the floor of the room. And they are like, what the fuck is happening? And officer Craig Feeney, who was one of the first officers

to enter the room, described his absolute terror. Because that's how they felt. They felt genuinely scared when they saw this, because he was like, one of two things is happening here and this is a quote from him either someone else another perpetrator is hiding under these piles of leaves or the bodies are under there is this the inspiration for that really scary book that's actually called house of leaves i would call i would have called this house of leaves yeah i haven't read that book but it is very like it is very house of leaves oh thank you very Thank you very much. Cheers, mate. Thank you. So the officers start checking these leaves, like prodding them round in the piles

to check that there's no bodies or check that there are people hiding in there. And the rest of the officers go off to search the rest of the house. And this is when they found a sewing cabinet pushed up against the door of what they thought was the door to the basement. So move it aside, and they walk down the dark steps into the basement and in the basement they found 13 year old Sarah.

She had been bound and she'd been gagged and unbelievably she had been tied down to what I can only describe as being a massive bed of leaves. I keep waiting for you to say squirrels. No, the squirrels come later. A massive bed of squirrels. And so he's basically just made a giant pile of leaves in the corner of the basement, chucked a sheet over it, and then tied her to it. Oh God, okay.

I know, right? Imagine just being like, you can't even just be like a normal abductor put me in a fucking hole or just leave me in the basement i'm also now tied to a pile of leaves for some reason it's very strange it's very very strange behavior and he said later on that he did this to keep her comfortable which i thought thought was very weird. But anyway, Sarah was obviously terrified, but the police officers, they obviously took her away from there. They took her to a hospital and they did confirm that she was scared, but she was physically okay. Horrifyingly though, I mean, they say physically okay, but I do question it based on the next sentence I'm about to say.

Hoffman had kept her there prisoner and he had been forcing her to watch TV with him, to eat with him and he had of course been sexually abusing her. That's why he took her. And also the really heartbreaking thing is when Sarah was taken from the house and she was taken to hospital she had no

idea that her mum and her brother had been killed. So she was just like I just want my mum here, but your mum's been murdered, which is very sad. I do have a tree fact, though. Ease the pain. Did you know that trees didn't exist for the first 90%

of Earth's history, and that sharks have in fact existed longer than trees? Hideous, isn't it? There were sharks on this planet before there were trees that's crazy I know so as the police moved through the house they obviously are investigating this place is very sparsely you know furnished they find fridge freezer. They open it up. Inside, nothing but ice lollies and dead squirrels. That's his grocery shopping.

Do you ever have those things when you're a kid where you make your own ice lollies but they're shit? Yeah. And it's just like your mum being like, yeah, it's fine. Just put some squash in it. The mental image I've just got is just squirrels like stuffed into one of those with a spoon and you've just like done it with some like really strong squash and then my mum would be like that's gonna make you more dehydrated than if you just didn't drink it at all fine anyway that's what's in the fridge freezer it's very very strange.

And they search, they continue to search the house, and obviously all of the rooms, just more and more leaves, more and more weird leaf bag insulation situations going on. And also, it's quite interesting, that Hoffman only had two trees in his garden. There was absolutely no way that all of those leaves came from those two trees. So again, I think potentially speaking to the same neighbour, the one who made the jab

about the grocery shopping, she said I saw him every day. He'd go to Foundation Park and he'd collect all the leaves and bring them back to his house. And then she said, I wouldn't let my kids play outside when he was home. I wouldn't. I mean, we when he was home. I wouldn't.

I mean, we're laughing because she sounds weird, but she is right. She's bang on the money. He is, like, murdering people. So, yeah, sometimes helicopter parenting is the right thing to do to stop your kids from being murdered by a crazy person who lives next door. Clearly.

It's quite atmospheric. It is quite atmospheric. They're very, like, on the money, more than if we'd have tried to do our own sound effects, I think, which is very good. So we have the answer of how the leaves got there, but maybe not really why the leaves got there. And some speculate, which I thought was quite interesting.

I can't take credit for this. Some do speculate that he is an arsonist. He likes to cover up his crimes by starting fires. Was he planning on just using it as a place where he could keep Sarah captive, and then when the police were on to him he could just burn it down and the leaves would be like an accelerant well they would they would they would be i know but i don't know i'm also like he just

burned down like two million dollars worth of like condos with nothing with no leaves if i had to choose between petrol and leaves i'd probably go petrol petrol. Yeah. I mean, I would. You don't have to go to the park every day to collect petrol. I don't think it's that, personally. Because the other thing that it could be, and this is my theory, no one else said this, and if it's wrong, that's fine, that maybe he had something called dendrophilia. What do you think that is? A love of vines. No, a love of trees.

Literally a love of trees. It can also be love of trees literally a love of trees it can also be called arborophilia which makes sense but yeah apparently the common term is dendrophilia and it is actually the term that refers to a paraphilia in which people are sexually aroused by trees or tree related things that's why he was climbing inside him know what he was doing exactly exactly and that meth person too. So whatever was going on, the police obviously took him in to be questioned. And the one thing they did realise pretty quickly was that his life was a total mess. Just a few days before the burglary at the Herman home, Hoffman's girlfriend, who had been living with him with her young child for some reason left after he tried to choke her to death as you

would yeah good for her and this had clearly i think been a trigger for hoffman you know i think with the behavior we see with sarah he's trying to create like almost like the girlfriend that he lost he's like but he's like i'm just gonna keep her locked up and he says to the police when they interview him later is that he was oh i, I was going to start untying her and letting her have more and more freedom until I was sure that she wouldn't leave. So like, okay, he had a plan. That's the thing.

So yeah, I think he was just clearly trying to replace his girlfriend who had left him with someone who literally couldn't leave. And during the questioning, police were obviously keen to track down the whereabouts of Cody, Tina and Stephanie. Because remember, I told you, he took their body or their remains to Foundation Park, but we never really found out what exactly had happened to them. And at first,

Hoffman wouldn't tell them. I think, you know, it's like a secret for himself. Why reveal that fact? And also, there's no real clear evidence that he's killed them until this point, because the bodies haven't been found. And so, yeah, he wouldn't say at first. But two days later, the DA told him that if he told them where the bodies were, that they would take the death penalty off the table. And clearly he decided that he wanted to live. So he gave the police, well, he pointed the police in the direction of a 60-foot hollow tree in the Coco Sing Wildlife Area near Frederickstown. And when the police went there,

inside this giant hollow tree, horrifyingly, they found the dismembered remains of Hoffman's three murder victims stuffed into the trunk of the tree. Yeah. Do you want a fun fact? This one's kind of a bit sad as well, really. It's called the Manitial tree, and it's a native to Florida, again.

And it's considered to be the most poisonous tree in the world because it causes painful blisters if you stand under it when it rains. Oh, God. Exactly. And if you burn the wood and the smoke gets in your eyes, it'll blind you. Yeah, another reason

not to go to Florida. Exactly. And obviously, it'll kill you if you eat its fruit. But also, the poison, if water touches its leaves

and you drink it, poison. Oh, God. I know. That's the Manichal tree. Go look it up. So that's my very tree-heavy case for tonight.

I really enjoy how you ended on a tree fact. I know, I had to be done. Good. Now I can just kick back and listen to yours. Yeah, well. show American Scandal. We bring to light some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher

Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial today. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America.

But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudian Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On The Media. To listen, subscribe to On The Media wherever you get your podcasts. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either, until I came face to face with them.

Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada,

as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Is everyone feeling sufficiently scared? Everyone's learned so much more about trees. I think they've taken more about trees away from that than anything, to be fair. That's okay. It was fine. At least one person's had enough.

Okay. So, as Sarita was saying, we do feel quite a lot of pressure for the Halloween episodes. And how we try and approach them is finding the most fucked up shit we possibly can. But because we look at that stuff every day, it's quite difficult to know what a normal person would find scary. So that drove you to a BuzzFeed list. Yeah. I was having some sort of actual crisis at one point because I was like, we've done everything. Yeah.

So I've just gone like really wildly rogue I'm excited like so rogue that I'm not even sure if you're going to stay with me through the whole thing and I'm not sure about you guys either but we'll find out um we usually don't do like old and timey cases because I think they're a bit boring and I also think people care less about people if they've been dead for like more than 20 years, I think we can all agree It's true That's what I was bang on And I've also gone a bit boaty or like shippy

I think you're not supposed to call big boat ships are you if people get offended by that Yeah I think it's like respect the ship but I'm going to be using them interchangeably for this evening I think that's fine So it is olden time, we were in June 1947 on the high seas But I'm going to be using them interchangeably for this evening. I think that's fine.

So it is olden time. We were in June 1947 on the high seas. And specifically, we're on the Straits of Malacca, which is bang in between Sumatra and Malaysia. And it's a really busy trade route. And in June 1947, British and Dutch listening posts picked up an SOS signal coming from the Cymru a'r Ddwch yn cymryd syniad SOS o'r môr. Nid wyf yn gwybod beth oedd y rhain yn ddysgu, ond yn y gwirionedd maen nhw ar y ddaear

ac maen nhw'n cael pobl yn eu cymryd bob amser ac mae'r gwaith nhw yw gwrando ar yr holl negeseuon sy'n dod o'r môr i'w gweld bod popeth yn dda. Mae'n debyg i gyrff traffit a'r traffit, ond i'r môr. Felly maen nhw i gyd wedi cyrraedd ychydig bach o'r môr ac mae'n eu gwaith i sicrhau bod popeth yn iawn yno. Ond ar y diwrnod hon, nid oedd. Felly maen nhw'n eu swydd i wneud yn siŵr bod popeth yn iawn yno. Ond ar y dydd hwn, nid oedd.

Felly, maen nhw'n cymryd y s-o-s syniol ac, fel y rhan fwyaf o bethau sy'n gweithio gyda sip, roedd yn y cod morse. Ac fe wnaeth ei gyhoeddi'n neges yn hyfryd iawn. Roedd y cod morse yn dod o sip heb ei ddysgu, nid oedd yn gwybod ei fod yno, ac dyma'r neges y dywedodd. Cynhyrchion, semicolon, a chredaf ei fod yn ddiddorol iawn. O, semicolon, which I thought was very impressive.

Oh, I love that. How do you do that in Morse code? Anyway, all officers, including captain, are dead. Lying in chart room and bridge. Possibly whole crew dead. And then there was a massive bout of totally indecipherable Morse code. My experience of Morse code is essentially Titanic

and or one visit to the Imperial War Museum in year four. So I don't know anything about Morse code, but I looked it up and apparently the clicky thing that they press all the time when they're doing it is called a paddle. So it was like the person at the Morse code paddle had completely lost control of their hand.

Or it's like, you know when you're WhatsApping or you're texting and you say something that's frustrating and then you're just like, maybe they were just doing that. Possibly all dead. Frowny face. Maybe that's just me. I don't know. And then, but the message isn't over after this massive mess of noise.

The two more words come through. And those words were, I die. You ready? So, after those two words, there was just total silence from the unknown vessel. And as it turned out, the British and Dutch listening posts were not the only ones who heard the message. There were two American merchant ships also on the Straits of Malacca, and they had also heard the message. So they worked together with the listening posts,

and they triangulated where they thought the unknown vessel would be. And the ship that was the closest, which was called the Silver Star, decidedi penderfynu eu bod yn mynd i'w helpu. Felly rwy'n credu ei fod yn eithaf normal. Rwy'n credu os ydych chi'n clywed signal o ddistres, rwy'n gweld eich bod yn rhaid i chi fynd i'w helpu. Rwy'n credu mae'n un i'r gilydd ac un i'r gilydd. Yn union. Ar y môr uchaf. Felly maen nhw'n mynd i ffwrdd, y Silyr Star, a'r Silyr Star, mae'r sipau wedi newid eu enw bob amser yn amlwg, felly fe ddechreuodd ei bywyd fel Santa Cecilia star. And the silver star, its ships change their name all the time, apparently. So it started its life as the Santa Cecilia and ended it as the Santa Juana. But for our story, it's called the

silver star. So the silver star changes its course. And after a few hours, this ship comes into view, which they assume must be the one that sent the message. And that ship was called the Orang Medan. And Orang means person. So Orang Utan means forest person, which I thought was quite nice. And Medan is the biggest city on Sumatra. So the ship's name translates to man of Medan, basically,

or person of Medan, but this is the 40s, so definitely man. And at the time, there was a huge Dutch presence in Sumatra, so it was assumed, well, ascertained, it definitely was a Dutch freighter, the Orang Medan was. And it was soon pretty obvious, this crew of the Silver Star, as they were looking at this ship,

that it looked, like, totally fine, that there was nothing wrong with it, from the outside anyway, so the captain's like, oh, let's get a boarding party together and go and find out what's going on, because why would a not-sinking ship send a distress signal? Everyone's possibly dead. Wow. No, they aren't.

So the Silver Star assembled a boarding party and they set off towards the Orang Medan. And as soon as they made it on board, the crew figured out pretty quickly that although the ship itself looked fine, the crew, the message had said were absolutely not. The decks of the ship were absolutely strewn with corpses. Each man's limbs were contorted as if they were trying to push something or someone away from them and their mouths were all wide open like they had died mid-scream. The captain was found dead at his desk, pen in hand,

and the man at the Morse code paddle was also dead, slumped over at his post. And even the ship's dog, who was a terrier, also dead. And no one, no dog, no man, had a hair out of place on them. There was no signs of struggle, no no bruises nothing completely fine except not because they're obviously quite dead and they all had the same expression on their face but neither the captain the crew nor the dog had shown any signs of struggle and the horror was not just on the deck and the bridge.

Below deck there were more crew, again all dead, arms outstretched with their mouths wide open. And even though that day was an absolute scorcher, it was 43 degrees, or 110 Fahrenheit for our American listeners. Not you, Florida. The crew of the Silver Star reported that the hold was freezing cold. But other than that, the inside of the ship looked totally fine. There was absolutely no explanation for why the whole crew were dead.

So the Silver Star decided they would tether the Orang Medan to themselves and they would tow it back to shore and then hand over the massive mystery mess to someone else. Don't do that. That ship's haunted. Leave it alone. Leave it where it is. Oh my God. But as soon as they had tied the ship to themselves... Uh-oh. See? I was right, wasn't I? Don't do it. Oh, I don't know yet. I don't know. Huge pillars of black smoke started coming out of the hold of the Orang Medan, specifically hold number four. And they'd just been down there. It was all completely fine.

There was nothing to suggest that it was about to set on fire, which is what happened. And then they cut the tethers. They're like, this is a terrible idea. We're not going to tow the ship at all. Cut the tethers just in time. Because the ship exploded with a massive explosion that was so forceful that the ship lifted out of the water before sinking to the bottom of the ocean and with it with the crew

the captain the dog and what actually happened so we'll probably never know to be honest but that doesn't mean that we don't have theories. And I've put together some of the best, and best, I mean, fun and most entertaining. So, people have actually spent their entire lives and maybe misguidedly their academic careers figuring out what happened to the Ourang Medan. And a few...

So I'm going to start with the most obvious one, which is obviously aliens. So a few internet... I've written troglodytes, but that feels mean. That does seem mean. A few internet people have drawn comparisons between the Ourang Medan and the SS Eldridge, the Philadelphia Experiment.

Who knows about the Philadelphia Experiment? Oh, we've got one tinfoil hat brigade, the rest of you. So for those of you who don't know, I'll give you a quick rundown of the Philadelphia Experiment. In 1943, a ship called the SS Eldridge was in a shipyard in Philadelphia, and it was rumoured that it was fitted with magical generators that could turn it invisible and transport it to other places.

And witnesses claim that they saw before their own very human eyes the SS Eldridge disappear and then reappear in another shipyard in Virginia and then come back to the one in Philadelphia all in a matter of moments. There's books about it. You can read it. I'm not making it up. We don't have time to like...

Yeah. Because we'd be here all night and we'd all die of boredom. But... I like that there are books about it. Oh, this is like a real conspiracy theory. I watched a YouTube video about it. Did you?

I was like, all right. You were like, but that's enough. That's enough of that. I've had quite enough of you today. real conspiracy theory people love it video about it did you i was like all right you're like but that's enough that's enough of that i've had quite enough of you today and i also don't think we need to like i don't see that many similarities between them i think they both fall into the like weird shit that happened to boats category but like i don't think other than that boat is boat and weird is the only yeah exactly theme but that didn't stop a guy called Morris K. Jessop using both stories in his book, which was entitled The Case for the UFO.

Well, Mr. Jessop. Sounds like fun, doesn't he? He does sound like fun. So Jessop is sure that the Ourang Medan fell foul of some extraterrestrial trickery. And maybe the crew were zapped by an alien death ray. Can't disprove it. Imagine, though.

This is the thing I always... I mean, this is not just the thing I always think. It's the thing everyone always thinks when you hear about aliens. Why would this, like, incredibly intelligent alien race come all the way here just to, like, kill some people on a Dutch freighter? And leave it as a big mystery

and then just disappear? Like, it's so bizarre. Like, how arrogant of us that we think that's what they would come here to do. Like, they'd come here and fucking turn us into cows, like, you know, and use us for, like, agriculture. They wouldn't just, like, murder a boat full of people and then leave.

I love how you assume that aliens would be like cows. We'd be, like, stupid. We'd be like cows to them. Imagine if they are that intelligent. We'd be all here all night if stupid we'd be like cows to them imagine if they are that intelligent we'd be all here if i start talking about my theories on aliens anyway so we can't prove or disprove involvement of aliens that's the line i'm going with i do realize like how outright outraged i did become there i'll be quiet now carry on we also can't prove or disprove the involvement of ghosts.

Or pirates. Or even better, ghost pirates. That's the one. Ding, ding, ding. That's my favourite. And the Malacca Strait actually has a reputation for weird shit. It's where that Malaysia Airlines plane went missing in 2014. Which is your favourite YouTube poll to go down, isn't it?

It is my favourite YouTube poll. Where is the plane? I don't understand. Anyway, we haven't got time. You can talk to me about it at the bar later. And also, it's full of pirates. The Malacca Strait has been full of pirates since the 14th century because it is such a busy trade route between Europe and China.

But if the Ourang Medan was victim of real-life pirates, how did they kill them all without harming a hair on their heads? I mean, obviously, they are harmed. They're dead. But, like, there's no visible sign of trauma, I mean. Yeah. And also, like, why? That's not their bag, is it? They're, like, kidnapped? That's not their bag, is it? They're like, kidnapped for hostage or steal your shit.

Well, did they steal the shit? We don't know. We don't know what was in there. No, we don't know. You're right. What about ninja pirates?

Because, have you seen that thing they do in the films where they're just like, touch of death and then you're dead? Maybe they just touch of death the entire crew

and that's why. And the dog. Exactly. And that's why And the dog. Exactly. And that's why they're fine. Maybe. But they waited until that person had sent a full Morse code before they attacked. Well, there's a lot of them to get through. You have to touch of death one at a time.

I think you should write a book about this. So people discard the real life pirate theory in favor of the ghost pirate theory because of the hold of the ship being so freezing cold on such a hot day. That's the only reason. That's the reason. All right, fuck. No, I meant, and not because they just, like,

don't have anything better to do with their lives. They're, like, not real-life pirates. They're ghost pirates. Okay, I'm just going to skip this next bit. No, do it. Do the ghost pirate thing. Don't let me ruin it. No, it's fine. Okay, I'm just going to skip this next bit. No, do it. Do the ghost pirates bit. No, it's fine. I'm also losing the will to live.

So we'll get into what actually might have happened, even though I am desperately in love with the idea of ghost pirates, as I'm sure the entire room is. And every... Okay, so here's the big twist. Prepare yourselves. There is actually no record anywhere on any big ship lists that the boat, the Ourang Medan, ever existed.

Someone call the air over there. Yes! But before you all feel completely betrayed by me, hold on to it, stay with me. I promise I'm going to make a point later on. But apparently there are big lists of ships in every port. They're all registered somewhere, but there is no registration of the Euromedan at all.

Was it called something else? No. So every researcher that has looked into the Euromedan has faced this same problem, that no records of the ship's registration are anywhere. There's not a single registrationary sausage. But that doesn't mean there's no paper records of it at all. The Coast Guard did not report the incident until 1954,

so that's six whole years after it happened, allegedly. But they did report it. So if it was all made up, why would they bother? And is the ship not there? Oh, like remnants of it? You can't find shit like that in the ocean. It's massive. All right.

Someone yelling at me. This is what it must be like when they're actually listening to it. Shut your mouth, Rudy. But the Coast Guard don't report on the Kraken or the Flying Dutchman, do they? So why would they? You're right, point proved. And the Coast Guard are not actually the only official body that have had something to say about the Ourang Medan. The Merchant Marine Council have reported on it.

And the CIA have chimed in as well. A document was declassified in 2013, and it was a letter from the assistant to the director of the CIA to an unknown recipient, redacted, obviously. And the letter goes through the points of the story that we've just done. So the dead crew, the dead dog, the smoke, the explosion, etc. And the letter says, quote, I feel sure that the SS Ourang Medan holds the answer

to many of these aeroplane accidents and unsolved mysteries of the sea. So there are official reports, just no registration. Who declassified it? Which president do we know? Whoever it was in whenever the year I said. Whenever the year was. Because I know like one of Hillary's things that she ran on was that if she won, she was going to declassify a load of like Area 51 shit.

Yeah, exactly. And even then she didn't win. I can't imagine. So we've got another scholarly friend that we've yet to hear from. And his name is Vincent Gaddis. And he thinks, this is quite a boring theory, I think. But he thinks there was a problem with the ship's boiler. Yeah.

And he thinks that carbon monoxide seeped into the ship and killed the crew. But... Open air, though. That's exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly that. How does a whole crew get gassed with carbon monoxide in open space? Yeah, I don't feel like that's a thing. No, and also, if it was poisonous gas why were the

silver star boarding party completely fine they all get away to totally unscathed yeah i don't know it can't even build up yeah because you're right they'd be they'd be out in the sea air yeah exactly and uh we can't uh go through this'm afraid, without visiting the absolute killjoys because we have to at least appear to be even-handed on this. So there are people who think the whole thing is a massive hoax. And they point to stuff like there being no mention of the ship in the Dictionary of Disasters at Sea, which is apparently a legitimate maritime encyclopedia of ocean death that you can go and look at.

I'm, like, genuinely fascinated by death at sea. I feel like I should read that. Yeah go and look at i'm like genuinely fascinated by death at sea i feel like i should read that yeah i think they're like massive i think they're like i mean how much money have i single-handedly made for open water three the number of people that have watched it because i mentioned it once on the show like yes maybe i'll buy that for myself i'll buy it for you for christmas actually i don't know how big it is i think it's like i have walls and walls and walls of books. They go through like year by year. Interesting.

I'll get you one. So the story started appearing in newspapers in the Netherlands and the rest of Europe in the 50s. And some report that the story of Orang Medan first made it to shore with a German survivor of the disaster. So the story is that this guy escapes whatever destroyed the ship, swims to sea to land. He's in the sea.

Swims to sea. That'll be all that carbon monoxide poisoning. Yeah, exactly. And then when he gets there, he finds this missionary slash author whose name is Silvio Schlerly or something equivalent. And he tells him the story and Silvio sells the story to the papers.

Kind of like the vampire story, isn't it? Which one? I don't know. I don't know why I started that comment, to be honest. One where it's like he's the only survivor because he's the vampire and then everybody's dead and then he swims off the boat and he swims. I don't know.

There's a lot of sea in Dracula. They do a lot of sea stuff. Is it in Dracula? Maybe it isn't. It is. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. It is.

There you go. Confirmed. Immediate confirmation. But my problem with that bit, like him telling this story, surely if he survived the disaster, his story is going to be like, weird shit started happening. I jumped off, swam for fucking ages, and now I'm here. How would he know about the boarding party and how would he know about the explosion?

Did he know about those things? Yeah, that's the story. The boarding party can surely confirm that it's real. Well, that's the thing. So the story that we've told sounds like it came from the boarding party, but none of them have ever come forward and confirmed I was there.

But isn't there a record of that ship being told that another ship was in distress? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's all there. But they won't say where they went? Mm-mm. Why? I mean, I get it. We don't know. But, like, why? Mystery of the ocean. That's weird. Hmm. And to make matters worse,

this is where you're really going to like this bit. That's my favourite line. One Reddit crusader claims to have found articles in the Daily Mirror and the Yorkshire Post, of all places, records of the demise of the Orang Medan that were printed in 1940, so seven years before it allegedly happened,

according to the CIA and the Coast Guard. So he thinks the whole thing's a hoax. But I don't. Yes, exactly. But surely the ship can't have sunk in 1940 and in 1947. But here's my theory. 1940, quite a lot of political turmoil. I think that

maybe that's when it happened and then the story just took that long is my theory. There was a lot of other things to report on at that time. It wasn't exactly a slow news week. We'll just put this on the back burner until we need it.

Exactly. There was a booklet published on it in Germany in 1952 by a guy called Oskar. I can't say his surname so we'll just say that. He knew more about it than anyone else. He knew the route of the ship, he knew what it was carrying, and he knew the captain's name. And a lot of researchers point to that account as being the most accurate. But did he just make the whole thing up and lead generations of ship nerds astray

for decades? I don't know. It's weird that there's no record of the ship. But, if he did just make it up, it's all made up, why are the CIA bothered? Why did the Coast Guard give a shit? I think the CIA just like to get involved in everything.

Because, here's my theory with the CIA. I mean, I'm just making this up as I'm saying it. It's a theory that I've had as you were speaking.

Right. It's kind of like local authorities. Right. Well, if you like local authorities. Right. Well, if you don't spend the money that you got that year, they're going to be like, you don't need that much money. They'll cut your funding the next year. So if you're looking into all sorts of random shit,

they're going to keep upping your funding the next year. If you're not looking into enough stuff and they're like, they didn't even spend this much money. Maybe get your funds cut next year. It's entirely possible. It's entirely possible possible and it was something i made up as i said it so yeah there we go so please feel free to like get yourself lost down some reddit holes and make your own minds up but i do have my favorite theory um so roy bainton is another one of the poor souls that i mentioned earlier who spent 50 years looking into the Ourang Medan. Yep.

Oh, my God. I don't know what's worse. These people are ripperologists. Like, what's even worse anymore? I think this is nicer because it's niche. Everyone's a ripperologist. Yeah, that's true. I prefer this.

So this is his theory, which I am in no way passing off as my own. And if we're believing Roy bainton and not the daily mirror we're in 1947 and what had just finished a couple of years before the war which one one no two two two two two oh god exactly world war i had just finished. I panicked. What even was World War I, though? We only ever learn about World War II. Sorry, sorry. What was World War I about?

The Archduke Franz Ferdinand got shot, and then loads of other shit happened. See, that's all anyone ever knows. That's the amount I know about World War I. It's not quite as fun as the Nazis as well. That's why. That's why we never learn about it. That's why.

That's why. I'm saying. And one of the things that was really exciting about World War II was biological and chemical weapons. Hooray! So they were a massive deal during the war and also after the war and also quite a large violation of the Geneva Convention. But that didn't mean it wasn't happening.

So Bainton's theory is that the Ourang Medan was smuggling nerve gas and or... Oh, no! Whoops, carry on, I'm fine. So he was smuggling nerve gas and or other biological and chemical weapons into or from Japan. Why Japan, you ask? Because of Unit 731. Oh, my gosh.

Or Unit 731. It's like Blink-182. I don't know. I think it's Unit 731. 731. It's like Blink-182. I don't know. I think it's Unit 731. 731. I've watched and read and just listened to so much about it. Okay. So anyone need Unit 731 explaining to them?

All of you? Good. So it was set up by a Japanese bacteriologist called, let me find his name on my sheet, Shiro Ishii. And he set it up to develop, his task was to develop the worst biological and chemical weapons known to man. And we know about him because he conducted his experiments on prisoners of war, women and children. But after World War II, he was completely absolved of all of his crimes, providing that he gave all of his murderous knowledge to the United States. He's a Japanese mangler.

Yeah, exactly. And 731 is Auschwitz. If you don't know Unit 731, and one day you're just like, I'm feeling a bit too happy. I feel like I need to go do some self-sabotage. Just go watch some YouTube videos about Unit 731. Maybe we should do it.

God. Okay, so this is the theory, and it is total conjecture, but the idea is that the Ourang Medan was smuggling chemical and biological weapons, and these chemical and biological weapons were improperly stored in the hold, so they leaked. And they killed the captain, the crew, and the dog.

That's it. That's the one. And then maybe salt water also leaks in, and maybe they've got some nitroglycerin. That's a bad idea, and that's what causes the crew and the dog. That's it. That's the one. And then maybe salt water also leaks in and maybe they've got some nitroglycerin. That's a bad idea. And that's what causes the explosion of the ship. Genius. That's the one. And that's why it's not on any records. Exactly.

Sorry, was that your ending line? And that's what... Sorry. You can say it again and we can edit this bit out. So, if you want to carry that kind of weapon, you can't do it on a plane, you can't do it over land. You get a lot less border control bullshit on a boat. So, what better way to smuggle them than get an unregistered knackered Dutch freighter

and take them through the seas? Because that would be pretty embarrassing for any government that was involved. So, that's what I think happened. I agree with you. you great that's the story oh good should we walk out we've got questions oh yeah sorry um um we also like, if anyone has any questions, we can take some. We don't have a mic, I don't think, but you can just yell really loudly.

If anyone does, you're also going to put your hand up really high. Oh, hello. Yes. You go first because I know you know yours. Okay, so I've just... Amy Bradley. Like, where is she? It's another boat one, if you don't know the story. This girl... I'm obsessed.

I think it's because I've been watching The Terror. Has anyone been watching The Terror? It's so good. I'm like boat obsessed. Amy Bradley, she's 19. She's on holiday with her family on a cruise ship and she just vanishes. So I think about that one a lot.

Like, how do you go missing off a cruise ship that's a scene and if you don't listen to our show we do have a whole episode like an hour plus episode on amy bradley it's called cruise crime go listen to it i think my probably the favorite one that we've covered is dali do you reckon dali that was a good one if you guys listen to the dali rutier one or heard of Dali Routier, it's a weird one. She's like a lady. She's home with two kids. Her husband's upstairs with her other kid.

She says that she falls asleep and she wakes up and there's a man in her house stabbing her two kids to death. She's got like some stab wounds on her which are like in really dangerous places but they're not that deep. But yeah, it's just a whole thing of like, did she do it or did somebody actually come in and do it to the kids?

It's very weird. There's like a Werner Herzog documentary about it called I Think Into the Abyss. Between him and her, it's a fucking weird show to watch. So yeah, go watch that. That's probably my favorite. Anyone else?

Okay. watch so yeah go watch that that's probably my favorite anyone else okay oh oh okay when I said I had theories on the Malaysian airline disappearance that was probably the wrong word what I meant was I have lots of like loud questions about the Malaysian airlines I had no I don't know no I just don't know like you're in front of a committee here no I just don't know I don't know i mean um i read some stuff that there was like something about batteries this is really bad i can't there's something about batteries the planes run on batteries no jesus no like people had some batteries on the plane maybe i don't know this is very poorly executed um i know. People are like, what the fuck are you on about?

I don't know. I also read something that there were some... I don't know. I'm just not going to say anything. I'll look it up and I'll add it into next week's episode. I just have lots of questions. Like, where is it? How come they never found it?

How can a plane just disappear? Et cetera, et cetera. Also, did you... No, it's weird. Weird. Go, Madeline McCann. What was your second question? Madeline McCann. Oh, come on, man.

I'm, like, scared to say it in case they fucking sue me, but it was the parents. They will sue you. They will sue you. I know. But they'll sue Red Handed as a whole, so we might as well say it. I don't know.

I mean, did anyone watch the Netflix? Yeah. Like, there was a lot of unnecessary information in there about, like, prior Del Cruz and, like, the 1970s, which I was like, why am I watching this? But generally speaking, like, I did think that the documentary made me change my mind about certain things.

I've heard a lot of people say that, so I won't watch it. Yeah, because I just want to be strong in your conviction that the parents did it. I watched it thinking that the parents definitely did it. Because there's all the weird shit, like Kate running out onto the balcony being like, they've taken her. Like, I don't know. That's weird.

But then I watched it and I was kind of like, maybe they didn't do it. And there's some weird shit with the dogs. I don't know. Do people think, okay. Do people think. Show of hands. Yeah. Who thinks the McCann I don't know. Do people think... Okay. Do people think... Show of hands. Yeah. Who thinks the McCanns did it?

Oh, wow. I think that's almost half the room. Oh, wow. You're all going to get sued now. It's fine. Yeah. I think the one that's a bigger, like I'm 100% sure,

is Jean Monnet. It's Burke. Burke did it. Yeah, for sure. Who else was it? The Pineapple. That CBS documentary, I was like look at him.

And then he went on Dr. Phil and I was like what are you doing? It's the weirdest thing. It's the weirdest thing. Anyway, yeah. Theories. Anyone else? Yes. What criteria do you use when you choose or not choose to do good question

yeah kind of just like we don't really have anything new to add to bundy or to dharma so we kind of try to choose cases that we can add something to like a perspective or explore an idea that we haven't seen spoken about somewhere else dharma and people like that we're just sort of like what have i got to say on that now yeah exactly like i don't think we've got anything like meaningful and i think if anything that's the way we choose them like do we have something unique to say about this yeah um and also like if we find them interesting and if there's enough out there to like milk 50 minutes out of it yeah exactly that's mainly it but um yeah we also just try to mix it up like before we were just doing them as and when but now we do have like a excel spreadsheet with

all the cases and we try to mix it up so because accidentally we can just sort of end up doing the same type of victim if we're all the same type of case if we're not careful so it's a lot more intentional now than it's ever been before but yeah just try and mix it up and keep it unique if we can anyone else oh hi oh sorry i didn't i realized i didn't point at anybody i'm so not used to being around i'm just like yeah is that is that what's like the most weird or strange or surprising thing that you've done in the case or in fact,

that you're like, oh, I think for me, it was Halloween 2017. Yeah, that was a good one. Don't know if you guys have listened to that.

That is probably, I think the Halloween specials from 2017 are two of my favourite episodes we've ever done. Same. And I don't want to ruin it if people haven't

listened because i think you should listen to it it is finding out who robin get the electrician had been an apprentice for should i just say it's kind of like a bit weird isn't it so this guy robin get he was like murdering all these women in chicago it was like the ripper crew of chicago cult they killed a load of women all very satanic weird shit and then they when they caught him they realized that he had been an apprentice at pdm contractors which was the company owned and run by john wayne gacy yeah so i was pretty shocked by that as were you yeah definitely you told me to fuck off with my entire life what about you? I don't think I can even come close to that one,

but something that's just popped into my head is that, obviously in the United States, a lot of places have the death penalty, but in Utah, you can be sentenced to death by firing squad because of Mormonism, because they have this concept in Mormonism which is called spilt blood which is about the redemption of like a blood sacrifice

essentially and that's why you can be killed by firing squad there. But it is the only death penalty the only way to kill somebody that has 100% success rate. Also true. Everything else botch all the time but yeah there you go. Yes.

Do you ever think that in one of your live shows there is a murderer is it you is it you no but and I won't like name this person or go too specific into it but like we have had some

interesting emails post live show where uh after I don't even want to say it because I feel like he'll still be listening we definitely would so basically after the London show we had somebody email us he was like I matched with you on Hinge and then and then you like ghosted me and I was like that's a rich term for like matching with someone and then them never speaking to you but also like then apparently he um bought a ticket to the London show and came to the show and then he was like and this was this email was pages long it was pages long and he was like and I was just thinking how weird it would be if I ran into I was like yeah no shit you're at my fucking show like of course it might run into me like what a weird thing to do and then

to like email red hand it was very strange. And I was like, that's the kind of man that would fucking kill somebody. And you think I'm joking. It's like as long as this script, the email. Yeah, yeah, can't confirm. It's very, very strange. Because I thought it would be funny to screenshot it and send it to one of my mates. But then I was like, I can't because it's like 17 screenshots.

It's weird. It's weird. Can you answer yes? Yes. In short, yes. I think someone had a question there. Yes. Yes.

We've only had nice ones, really. Yeah, we've only had nice ones. Someone did try and send us a poster that was just a bloody hand. Yes. But that never showed ones, really. Yeah, we've only had nice ones. Someone did try and send us a poster that was just a bloody hand. Yeah. But that never showed up, so... No. None of that. I think that was genuinely well-intentioned.

Yeah, I think it was well-intentioned. People take it very... They're red-handed very literally when they do do that, which I appreciate. That's lovely. We love, like, fan stuff, but I think that email was the weirdest thing that we've had. Yeah, it was a lot.

Yes? What other true crime podcasts do you listen to? Oh, God. We're really into, like, the long-form ones that are out at the moment. Like, I really love Dr. Death. That one genuinely scared me. It was, like, all of the beeping, like, you were in a hospital room, and the stuff, I don't know if you guys listen to it.

Go listen to Dr. Leth, so good when he's like, he removed so much of his like neck cartilage that his head wasn't even really attached to his spine anymore and I was like we like The Dropout, The Dropout's really good I'm listening to at the moment The Mysterious Mr. Epstein

which is, yeah, which is very good and like really informative as well, I feel like so much of the stuff that I've read about Epstein just, like, wasn't really giving me the meat of what I wanted. Yeah. And this one just got straight to it. This one comes at you with the hard facts, like, for sure, for sure. Yeah, yeah.

Yes. Is Epstein a suicide? No. He's not dead, man. That's his theory. She's like, he's not even dead. Because he's like, why? Your theory was, why would they show us the body, right?

Oh, right. So, okay, I'm going to calm down. And what other instance has someone died in prison and you've seen a picture of their body within 24 hours? Hasn't happened. He's not dead. It's a double bluff. I don't know. I don't know. I think according to the pathologist as of today, right?

Murder? Yeah, I did see that. Indication of homicide, I think is what it said. That was in the New York Times as well. Yeah. So, yeah. Yes. Hi. Hi.

Hi. Yeah. That's capital murder yeah so capital murder is kind of murder in conjunction with a felony so like if you're drug trafficking or you know people trafficking or something like that and you also commit murder that's capital offense or like if you kill a minor like or not even a minor but like um i think in some places like texas there's a child under the age of five or something like that so it's a murder in conjunction with a felony it's capital yeah well happy to clear it up that's okay i hope there's two we'll go there first and then you're next. The one that got us into true crime. Yeah, okay.

I really don't remember. I think for me it was more that my grandma is a very good storyteller and she's quite a spooky woman. I feel quite weird calling my grandma a bitch, so we'll just call her a spooky woman. And she, even when we were kids, she would just tell us the scariest stories that she possibly could. And I'd go visit my mum's family in India

and I would go stay in this very rural house and just outside there's like a giant temple. It was like all broken down. It would just scare the shit out of me. And so for me, I think it was just like spooky made up stories that then I was like, oh, there's real ones out there. And I sort of transitioned that way. But I honestly can't remember the first one

that made me be like like I'm into true crime mine's Aileen Wuornos anyone know that one um female serial killer in America um and she was a sex worker and she would kill her clients essentially um and I think she was sentenced to death like nine times or something which is like like how many times are you gonna kill a person? But I've got a soft spot for Aileen, I really do. So yeah, she's mine. Oh, and then we have one over here. Yeah. I was just gonna ask if you've seen the documentary,

I think it's Amazon called I Love You Now Die. Oh yeah. I just wanted your opinions on that. It turns out to be a cousin. They went in the room, I didn't have any kind of things to be doing. Yeah. No, it's a really good question.

For those of you who haven't watched it, they have sponsored us, so go watch I Love You Now Die. It's on Skycrime. Out of now. It's a really interesting one. It's the story of Michelle Carter. She had a boyfriend who was suffering with really bad depression.

His name was Conrad Roy. I always want to call him Roy Conrad. And he, she basically encouraged him, essentially, to kill himself. And she's now been convicted of,

is she being convicted of murder? Was that what it was? I can't remember if it was murder. It was manslaughter. And essentially, it's just like, can you be responsible, held responsible for somebody's murder or manslaughter

if you're not even in the same room and all you've done is text them encouraging them to do it. I think having read the text, if I hadn't read the text, I'd be like, this is nuts. But I've read the text and she is, she's savage. There's one point where he's in a car in the garage and he's

trying to kill himself and he stops and he gets out and he texts her and she texts him saying get back in the car I'm sorry, come on but the problem with that is it's kind of like when we did the webcam suicide nurse thing so like in the States freedom of speech is protected right but

it's not protected if you're encouraging someone to do something illegal yeah suicide isn't illegal so legally it's a really difficult thing to get your head around i get that but i also just feel like intent what was her intent in this and it's like she's saying get in the car and kill yourself and if your intent is to encourage this person to kill themselves it feels like she should be held responsible for it in some way i'm not upset that she's in prison now let's just say that i don't know either really i don't know if it's legally right or not but i'm not upset that she's in prison let's just say that yeah it's weird it's weird a very interesting documentary though i'd recommend it yes oh calling card because what was quite interesting when we were on tour what one of the questions that we did get asked was what would our serial killer traits be

so i feel like we know those now yeah but what would be your calling card well my serial killer trait is that i'm like really like meticulously anal about stuff like it like tiny details really like keep me up at night um so that's my like you could leave like a magnifying glass next, or just like a paper clip. Or like a butt plug. Anal, anal, anal. It was a pun. That's it. That's my corny card. It's a butt plug.

There you go. You're welcome. I don't know. I feel like I struggled on my serial killer one, but you said that I could talk people into a second location. You could talk people into a car for sure. I reckon I could.

But then they'd have to drive it because I can't drive. But I reckon I could lure someone away. So maybe mine could be like a lasso. You're just leaving a lasso around. It's symbolic. It's symbolic. It's metaphoricalical i'm whimsical yeah there we go let's see you in a magnifier let's see you in a butt plug

cool should we do one yeah i think we've got time for one more yes red jumper yeah i think she's a weird person i don't think she did it no and like something we come across a lot in the show is people really love to watch someone who's just had something traumatic happen to them or been connected to something traumatic and they're like oh well she's not crying enough or she's not crying in the right way or like her tear isn't like falling the way i thought mine would so people assume that they're guilty just because of their behaviors but like loads of people are really fucking weird and i think she's just genuinely a weird person i don't think she did it but i did i did think the reaction to that case in the uk was very interesting because

i spoke to a lot of people about it at the time when that documentary came out no one was bothered they were like she did it don't care don't need to see it kind of like me in the mccanns yeah i fully didn't feel like i knew whether she'd done it or not yeah and then i watched that documentary and i was like she didn't do this she's just a weirdo like she's a strange person and i think just to come back to what you said i think people watch people when they're being questioned or when they're doing press conferences and they're like they're not behaving how i think i would behave in that situation therefore i think they're guilty and we just know time and time again we're actually quite poor we're good at like recognizing

emotions in other people's faces but we're actually quite poor at like detecting whether deception in other people because it there's no like um universal type of behavior that indicates deception so it's actually very difficult to just look at something that's why lie detectors don't work there's not even a sort of universal physiological response to deception, let alone one that you show on your face. So I just think she's a weirdo, but she didn't do it. Did you see Lady Gaga tweeted the other day, fame is prison, and Amanda Knox tweeted her being like, no, no, prison is prison.

Amazing. Well, let's end on that. That's right. We've been red-handed. You've been fantastic. Thank you so much for coming out tonight. Thank you. You got it. Yep. Thank you. Thank you. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made.

A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder.

Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mom's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life.

I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy.

You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify.