RedHanded - Episode 121 - Jeni Haynes: The Woman With Over 2000 Personalities

Episode Date: November 14, 2019

In February 2019 in The District Court of New South Wales a woman named Jeni Haynes entered the witness box - but she wasn't alone. 6 different personalities spoke that day through Jeni's body; in a landmark case that saw a person with DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder, formerly referred to as Multiple Personality Disorder) testify in her many alters, and secure a conviction. This week the ladies cover this truly inspirational story. Jeni's DID came from the abuse that she had suffered as a child at the hands of her father, Jeni's mind split into over 2000 “self-states” or personalities. These alters were there to protect Jeni - and to this day she is adamant that her DID saved her soul. Join Suruthi and Hannah as they delve into her astonishing condition, the tragic impact it’s all had on her life and also her brave pursuit of justice. 60 Minutes Australia documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsXFcbPbvI4&t=2s MedCircle DID (Encina): https://youtu.be/A0kLjsY4JlU Spooky Bitch merch: redhandedshop.com   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Saruti.

I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed. Spooky bitch merch announcements. What is the date today? Absolutely not a single sausage. Not a clue. No idea. It's at some point in mid-November.

I'm going to take a guess. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it is November. So if that is the case when you're listening to this, if it is mid-November 2019, you guys have like approximately two or three weeks left. The Spooky Bitch merch is coming down at the end of this month. So if you want to get your hands on some, if you want to get your hands on some for someone else, maybe as a little Christmas present, hint, hint, hint,

then go over to redhandedshop.com now and get yourself some Spooky Bitch merch. Because time is running out and then they will be gone. They will be gone. We don't know when they're coming back. Possibly, we might even not bring them back until Halloween next year. So you really, this is your last ever chance. Exactly. Not ever, but this year for sure.

For sure. Maybe even next year. It's your last chance in the next 12 months, okay? There you go. What else do you want? There you go. We do you want there you go we'll make some safe announcements about that um yeah so go get yourself some there is also international shipping it seems to be ridiculously fast from people posting on social media so get

yourself some and yeah that's all we have to say about that uh any other announcements i don't think so no i don't think so no okay let's don't think so. No. Okay. Let's go then because I'm super excited about the case that we have today. Not necessarily maybe excited isn't the right, no, excited is the word. It's a horrible case. But anyone who has been anywhere near me for the past week has had to be subjected to me being like, deep breath. Oh my God, did you know? And then just like talking at them for about half an hour about everything I've learned this week. So yeah, you're in for a treat. Because this case has totally blown me away. It opened my mind up to something that I honestly not only had no idea about, but something that I was totally misinformed and totally ignorant about. And I know that we cover

some rough cases on this show, but this was one that genuinely pushed me to tears. I don't think that's happened since Fred and Rose West. I genuinely cried over this case. Those of you who listened to us this week will know that I fucked my pill up quite thoroughly by leaving it somewhere in Canterbury. I don't think it was just because of that or necessarily because of what actually happened to the main person in this story. As horrifying as that is, we do cover horrible cases. I am well versed in that. Yeah, but also Merch Curies and Retrograde,

so it could be that I've been an emotional mess all week. Have you? Well, maybe that's the reason. It could also be, as I first suspect, that it's not because of what happened to this person necessarily, but because of how she and her brain dealt with what happened to her. As a child, Jenny was repeatedly raped and tortured by her father, Richard Haynes. Jenny first reported the abuse in 2009 at the age of 39, and it would take a further 10 years for the police investigation to culminate in Richard

Haynes' conviction and jailing. When Jenny first reported the abuse, it became in Australia what police say is one of the worst child abuse cases in the country's history. I'm surprised they even said one-off, to be honest. I know. I think, yeah, they just don't want to, I guess, invalidate other people maybe who have been through horrible things. Yeah, fair enough. But yeah, it's fucking savage. According to Detective Sergeant Paul Stamoulis, who took the case on, he was not prepared for how bad it would get. He said that he had never seen anything like it before. When he interviewed Jenny, the statement that she gave was unbelievably detailed.

The abuse she recounted had started when she was just a baby and had gone on for ten unrelenting years. Paul and the other investigators were shocked not only by the horrific things that Jenny was saying had happened to her, but also the incredible amount of detail that she was able to give. Once Jenny's statement was complete, many of the investigators who read it actually stepped away from the case, finding it was too much for them to cope with.

And you can see the impact it had on Paul Stamoulis. There's a point in the documentary that we watched on this case that he starts crying and doubles over, just thinking about what Jenny had been through. The documentary is a 60 Minutes Australia documentary and it's going to be linked in the episode description below and I would 100% recommend watching it. In this documentary, Jenny explains that she considered Detective Sergeant Paul Stamoulis to be, quote, God on Earth

because he believed her from the very first moment that she told him her story. And it wasn't just the abuse that Paul believed her about. Jenny told him something else. Jenny told Paul Stamoulis that she had over 2,000 personalities inhabiting her body and that her multiple personality disorder or disassociative identity disorder had saved her life and saved her soul. She described these other personalities to be like an army that went to war to protect her from the pain and suffering and abuse and torture that her father had forced upon her as a child. Paul Stamoulis' response to Jenny was simple.

He said, I don't think you're crazy at all. From what you've told me, MPD is a reasonable response. And he's right. They sort of in documentary call it MPD quite a lot, which is multiple personality disorder. But we do know that the name was changed quite a while ago, actually, I think maybe 1994, I think I read to disassociative identity disorder. So we will call it that. But MPD is what they call it and what Jenny calls it consistently in the documentary. So psychiatrist Dr. George Blair West. And whenever they said his name and whenever I say his name,

I want to say Dr. George Blair Witch, but it's not. It's Dr. Blair West. Or Dr. George Fred West. So many names. So many names. So many. We're just going to call him Dr. George from now on because I can't say Blair West every time. Fantastic.

I can handle that. Reminds me of a friendly monkey that's curious about things. Exactly. That's fine. I can handle Dr. George. It's Dr. George and Detective Poole from here on out. Great. So psychiatrist Dr. George was the first person to ever believe Jenny when she spoke about her alters. And alters is how these multiple personalities are referred to within the host, which is the original personality. So even though DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder, was added to the DSM-5, which is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Mental Disorders in 1994, according to Dr. George, even psychiatry has had incredible difficulty understanding this condition.

And there still are psychiatrists and people out there who question whether it is even real. But according to Dr. George, he is absolutely unequivocal. This is genuine. This is a genuine condition. And he states in this documentary, MPD or DID is not only considered a genuine medical condition, but in fact, an ingenious one. Dr. George also explains that he doesn't consider DID to be a mental illness, but rather a miraculous coping mechanism. We are, as we often say on this show, not mental health experts or psychiatrists or psychologists or any of the above, but we are going to try and do our very best to explain DID. So DID comes from trauma. And we're not talking about a one-off traumatic

experience as if that wouldn't be bad enough. No, we're talking about repeated relentless abuse or trauma before the child turns eight. Those two things are important. It needs to be repetitive and it needs to be before the age of eight. Apparently after that stage, DID can't develop. So the brain's response to this kind of severe and repetitive trauma can be the development of DID. It's a symptom of an abused child's mind in coming up with a way to deal with something unbearable that's happening. According to Dr. George, it's based on a realization that no one is coming to save you from the trauma and the abuse that you're suffering. So the DID becomes a solution to a hopeless, trapped situation. And he's clear, DID is not an illness.

It's an amazing thing that the brain can do to protect a child who is suffering immensely. But it's also an incredibly, incredibly difficult condition to live with. Jenny says, yes, MPD or DID saved my soul, but I shouldn't have needed saving in the first place. And I can kind of understand what, not understand, but a part of me can see why there is such conflict in the medical community about it because it's something that happens to children and it's developed in childhood and like you can see why some people potentially would just write it off as imaginary friends you know that's not what I'm saying that's not what I say I believe

but you can kind of see why there is confusion about it because it's happened so early in life. Absolutely. I completely agree. But I want to make it clear when I talked at the start about like my ignorance around this, not knowing much about it. I think I've even previously said in an episode that multiple personality disorder is just like a Hollywood fabrication. This research that we did into this case has completely like blown my mind. It is 100% a thing as far as i can see from the evidence that i've read i think we like when we were talking about i think it was like episode six or something so like cut us a little bit of slack guys yeah no it was a very very long time ago it was a very long time ago and even after you finish listening to this episode you still query it go watch the

documentaries that we talk about in this i'd definitely be interested in talking to people about it on social media. And the 60 Minutes Australia documentary is a good one. Dr. George does explain the DID very well. But we also watched a MedCircle video in which they feature a lady called Encina, who has DID and she explains it very well. What she says is this, Encina has 11 alters or personalities, but five primaries. Primaries are the personalities that she can be co-conscious with. And that means that even when they are fronting, which means like they are the personality in charge or driving the body, they can choose whether Encina herself can still see or hear what's going on. The non-primaries are personalities that Encina isn't aware of, and she will usually suffer total amnesia when they are fronting, when they're driving,

what's going on. And we'll leave a link to the episode in the description. Definitely recommend watching that one. Encina's a great speaker, and it explains the condition very, very clearly. Definitely. And she gives an amazing analogy about a car and how DID works from her perspective. I am not going to repeat it here because I can't do it justice. So go watch that YouTube documentary with her and she explains it very, very well. was just blown to pieces. Obviously, everyone's DID is different, like with any sort of condition, health condition, medical condition, mental illness, whatever. But there are documented cases, for example, that the New York Times have covered. And there do seem to be specific similarities that tie all these together, which is what made me feel like, fuck, this is just like almost otherworldly. I couldn't believe it. So the New York Times talks about a couple of cases.

One, where a woman with DID was blind. So the original personality, the original host is blind. But one of her alters had sight and could see. Oh my God, no way. And there's another case of a man who the original host, the original personality does not have diabetes. But one of his alters has diabetes. So when the alter is fronting and you do a blood test, the blood test shows positive for diabetes. But when they do it on the original host, he does not have diabetes.

Oh, my God. I don't know. There are so many things about the brain that I just have no concept of. My mind is blown. How is the brain capable of giving you diabetes? But I suppose, of course it is. Of course it is. Because your brain monitors your levels of everything.

So it could just be like, see ya. We could study it forever and still not even scratch the surface of what is going on. Because there's more. There's another one of a man who could drink orange juice just fine. The original personality can drink orange juice. But when any of his other alters were fronting, when he drank orange juice, he'd break out in hives. Still not convinced? Still some skeptics out there? Well, I read about a particularly interesting study done by a neuropsychologist named Joseph Siasaria at Swinburne University of Technology in Australia. And I know I keep saying it, I can't think of

another word. It blew my fucking mind. So this study took five patients with DID and five professional actors of a similar age and asked them to do simple cognitive tests while using an EEG to monitor their brainwaves. During the experiment, the actors performed the tasks as themselves and then they repeated the tasks as a series of pretended personalities. So they do the tasks again whilst acting like someone else essentially. And remember that these are professional actors and both times they do it, their brainwaves are monitored by an EEG. Then the same tasks were

repeated with the patients with DID. So the brainwaves of the DID patients' host personalities, so the core or original personalities, were monitored when they did the task the first time. And then they basically asked them to switch, or they waited until they switched into another personality, into another alter that was now fronting. And then they were asked to repeat the task again. And this time, again, they were monitored, doing the same cognitive tasks. Remarkably, the experiment clearly showed different brain patterns between the DID host, so the original personality, and each personality or alter. The difference in brainwaves could not be reproduced by the professional actors emulating other personalities. So if you

take somebody with DID, they do a task, you measure their brain waves with an EEG, you ask them to do it again when another personality is fronting, totally different brain waves, totally different brain patterns cannot be emulated by an actor pretending to be someone else. So this experiment, it shows, does it not, that this isn't role play. This is real. It shows that it's like a change in the brain, I suppose. Like it shows that the brain itself changes totally to like come in line with these different alters, I suppose. I'm not sure if I can call them personalities.

I think I'm with Dr. George when he says it's a defense mechanism. Like they're not fully formed people, you know. Well, some people with DID say that some of the personalities are very transient, so they're not so fully formed. But some of the personalities, which are generally the primaries, are incredibly fully formed. They can see them. They're like, I know what that person looks like. I know what they're wearing. They have their own likes, their own personality, their own dislikes, their own feelings, their own emotions. And they talk about them like they say, that is a human being that just happens to share my body.

But they all have specific functions, no? Yeah, they all have specific functions. So surely they're built to be, to do that job? This is the thing. It's whether the person is creating them to do that job or whether they already exist and they come out. There's a lot of different, like Jenny says the different things and Sina the different things, and Sina says different things. And I guess psychiatrists can only relay information that has been shared with them from people with DID.

And also, like I said, everybody's DID seems to be very different. For example, some people can have male and female alters. Some people only have the same gender alters. Some people's alters age, some people's don't. I don't think anybody really knows the answer to all these questions but what did shock me is that if the brain patterns brain waves are completely different when they're different alters are fronting it just it blew my mind because I was like it's like a completely different person you know I think I've watched like a couple of

documentaries on this but like back from like back in the day and there was two then there's one it's a lady who lives near the butterfly farm in stratford-upon-avon and she had multiple alters and again a lot of them were children and she had a hard time getting any help or proving to anyone that it was real they just thought she was making it up and then that one i have a much clearer memory of but there's another one that i watched and i cannot remember for the life of me what it was or where it was or when I saw it but I have a very clear memory of um this sort of he must he looked like he was in his mid-20s this um guy living with his mom and he had multiple alters and they would fight each other so he would like physically be punching himself in the face and he's not present for any of that they just completely take him over and then when he goes to bed he has to turn the lights off in his head in each one of their rooms. You guys are amazing. I know you'll

find it. Someone will have posted it on the Facebook group within 10 minutes. Yeah, yeah. It was, I want to say Channel 4, I want to say it was on Channel 4 circa 2003. That's my like gut feeling. Okay, well, I'm sure we will find it. We will find it. But honestly, we could probably talk about this for days. I reckon I could do like an entire podcast series with Hannah on just this topic. But let's get back to Jenny. So in the 60 Minutes documentary, which you know what? Pause this.

Go watch it. Come back. In the documentary, which you will now have watched, Jenny explains that because of the abuse that she suffered, quote, I made people to deal with the things that I couldn't deal with. And let's be super clear these are not imaginary friends or made up people for Jenny to play with or to distract her from her abusive life they're distinct personalities almost separate human beings with their own feelings and needs and they were there to protect her and now that we've set the scene let's go back to the beginning to understand Jenny her life and what she went

through Jenny's family the Haynes moved from Bexley Heath, nice round there, in southeast London to Greenacre in a suburb in Sydney in 1974. Jenny was just four years old, but her father, Richard Haynes, had already begun to abuse her. Once in Australia, this abuse escalated and the only way to describe Haynes is as a sadistic paedophile. His abuse of Jenny was torture and he doled it out on a daily basis. Jenny never goes into too much detail about what Haynes actually did to her but the evidence is clear. As an adult Jenny has had to have major surgery because the damage caused by her father was so extensive and she has now got serious lifelong physical conditions,

not only because of the abuse, but because Haynes refused to get her medical care when she was a kid. So despite all of her operations, Jenny has irreparable damage to her eyesight, jaw, bowel, anus, and coccyx. Coccyx damage is no joke, man. I dislodged mine on a space hopper when i was 11 never been the same due to the damage to her bowels from the sexual abuse in 2011 jenny even had to have a colostomy and now she will forever have to wear a colostomy bag obviously many people have to wear a colostomy bag it's nothing to be ashamed of but for jenny she describes the bag as a horrific humiliating daily degrading reminder of the abuse that she suffered. Jenny has calcified ligaments in her jaw as a result of her father's horrendous abuse,

and now she lives in a constant state of fear, the opening her mouth too wide in case her jaw locks. Jenny also dreamed of being a mum one day. Even as a child, she said that it was all she ever wanted. But Haynes destroyed that possibility too the rape and abuse he carried out broke Jenny's body by the time she was 11 to the extent that she will never have children so you will be glad to know that we don't go into any more detail of the abuse that Jenny suffered really because Jenny doesn't really talk about it. The evidence really comes from her physical state and from her mental state given what he absolutely did to her and just the descriptions of like how many surgeries she's had to go through, the damage he's done to her bowels,

her anus, her coccyx, her reproductive organs. I want to say I don't even want to imagine but of course we all know what he did. As we richard haynes absolutely destroyed jenny's body but he also tried to break her mind he would tell his terrified daughter that he could read her mind he threatened to kill her mum her brother and her sister if she even so much as thought about the abuse let alone told anyone and have you seen those pictures probably like when we were younger those pictures of like spontaneous human combustion yeah in my history textbook i have a very clear memory the one that i saw was like um i think it's like an armchair with like a pile of ashes with like a couple of legs just there i don't think i saw the one that was a pair of legs but the one

i've seen is just like one leg in a pile of ashes is that something that I'm gonna have to apologize for saying is not real in a future episode why is it in history textbook I can't remember why it was in my history textbook but it was something to do with like unexplained phenomena something like the history of unexplained phenomena yeah it's my history book it's my history textbook i can see it i can picture it it was definitely a history textbook for sure wow wow do you know what it was it was um we were looking at the bermuda triangle that's what it was and it was like fucked up shit happens in the bermuda triangle here's a picture of some spontaneously combusted legs just in case you don't know what fucked up shit means year nine okay what kind of textbook is this that's what i needed to be

learning from fucking out we're laughing at it because we are adults we are laughing at the idea of like these scorched legs in like an armchair i want to say it's obviously not real but i'm scared to say anything's obviously not real anymore but i'm pretty sure spontaneous human combustion isn't real but obviously we're laughing at it as adults. Jenny was a child who was being already fucking abused on a daily basis. Richard Haynes showed her that picture, that specific picture with the armchair with the pile of ashes in the legs, and told her that if she told anybody about the abuse, then that is what would happen to her mother. And telling her that he can read her mind. It's so sadistic. And at this point, Jenny says, my inner life was invaded

by dad. I couldn't even feel safe in my own head. The abuse continued until Jenny was 11. And then the family moved back to the UK and her parents divorced. Jenny believes that no one, not even her mother, who is now one of Jenny's biggest supporters, knew what was going on. She said, quote, Not to give Jenny's mum a hard time. Yeah, I was going to say, how? How could you not know? Even if you're like like don't know about the sexual abuse like it like her jaw is calcified like surely she's not walking around looking a

okay a hundred percent of the time the damage that richard haynes does to jenny's body i don't know how her mom didn't know i really don't know how her mom didn't know but then you know richard haynes is like abusive this much with his daughter of course he was going to be abusing his wife as well like yeah right yeah yeah yeah I don't know I couldn't really find that much information about her mum um I know that she now lives with her mum and they are very close and she is like you said her biggest supporter now but maybe she was just incredibly vulnerable as well and wasn't in a position to get away from him because I don't don't know, as soon as they move back to the UK, she leaves him and takes Jenny. But in Australia, she does stay. I don't know.

Well, I suppose if you've just moved to a new country, you're probably very isolated. Maybe she didn't know anybody there and she didn't really know who to ask for help. Whereas in the UK, maybe she had a bit more of a support network and felt able to leave. Definitely. Definitely, definitely. So when you abuse children, you rob them of choice, of control, and you destroy their sense of self and their self-esteem. Jenny was trapped in a situation that few of us could even imagine. And because the abuse and trauma started at such a young age, her brain started to do something entirely remarkable. By this point in her life, the outside world had failed her.

It had let Jenny down so many times. She couldn't trust that anyone would ever save her. She needed to save herself. And so she created her own internal therapists. And this all happened while they were still in Australia. So the abuse is happening there from baby to 10 or 11 years old. And this is when, obviously, like we said, the abuse needs to happen by eight. And it absolutely does. And this is when we start to see the sort of development of DID. And the internal therapists that she starts to create for herself are, of course, her alters. And the very first alter that Jenny was aware of was Symphony, a four-year-old girl, and Symphony came from the abuse. She'd sing to Jenny as the abuse happened, then she'd take over and let Jenny go inwards. When the abuse

became too much, Symphony was there to face the world for Jenny. Jenny told the BBC in an interview this year, quote, she suffered every minute of dad's abuse. And when he abused me, his daughter Jenny, he was actually abusing Symphony. So really in Jenny's story, Symphony is the savior. She was there to take away Jenny's pain. And the way she did it was amazing. For example, Jenny explains that the smell of her father was one of the most distressing things for her. She said that he smelled like burning plastic and sweat. So Symphony even managed her senses. She'd block out the smell experience.

And you and I, we can't do that. I certainly can't voluntarily shut off my sense of smell. But thanks to her alters, Jenny could. I'm just trying to think what I do when I don't want to smell stuff. You just hold your breath or you cover your nose Stick tiger balm up your nose All that, I've definitely been there, exactly But with the alters, and again referring back to that MedCircle documentary

That is linked below with Encina She says that there are different stages of amnesia That a host can have when an alter is fronting It can be total amnesia to the point that a non-primary has taken over or a primary has taken over and sort of pushed you completely out the way to the point that she would say she'd wake up days later not knowing where she was or how she'd got there because an alter had taken over to the point that she'd completely blocked out all of the host's, you know, senses. But they can also do it that they can block your sight

or block your ability to hear or block your sense of smell. But apparently whichever personality is fronting is the one that's in control of how much the host can see or feel or whatever. During an interview when Symphony was fronting, she said, quote, I took everything I thought was precious about me, everything important and lovely, and hid it from Daddy so thought was precious about me, everything important and lovely and

hid it from daddy so that when he abused me, he wasn't abusing a thinking human being. And that's kind of what I mean when I'm like hesitant to call them entirely formed human beings because like Jenny is the human, like Jenny is the central character and they're all sorts of like, they're there to protect her. So they can't be as developed as she is, if that makes sense. Do you know what I mean? They definitely can't be as developed as she is if that makes sense do you know what i mean they definitely can't i think it's when you watch something like the encina documentary and i can imagine why you would have sort of this sort of existential crisis at points but she says there have been points where i've thought how do i even know that i'm the original

how do i even know that i'm not one of these alters and one of my other personalities is actually the host and i'm just fronting and I'm more dominant like I can understand why you would feel completely lost within this network of people in your own head oh totally yeah but no you're totally right these characters are there to perform a specific function to protect and we'll go on to discuss that in a bit more detail I'm Jake Warren and in our first season of Finding I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life you can listen to Finding Natasha more detail. I'm Jake Warren and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help

someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made, a seductive city where many flock to get

rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near LA in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing.

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the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Cone. Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party, so. Yeah, that's what's up. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today, I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment,

charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution. I was f***ed up. I hit rock bottom, but I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real. From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is the rise and fall of Diddy. Listen to the rise and fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery Plus. So after a few years, Symphony herself started to make other personalities. According to Jenny, that's why she has so many alters let's remember she has over 2 000 because quote when daddy nearly

killed us physically symphony removed the altar who was almost dead and replaced them with a fresh altar to keep going so she's kind of like the h department. Symphony is the creator, almost, within Jenny's mind. So Jenny wasn't aware or conscious of any of these alters. Symphony managed them. And the way people with DID, including Jenny and Encina from the MedCircle interview, explain their alters is they explain them as a complex network in which they all have roles and specific functions and a very particular and intentional way in which they connect with each other and with the host.

Each of the personalities has a particular role in containing an element of the abuse. Now, we can't go through all of the over 2,000 alters that Jenny has. Even she couldn't do that. Some of the personalities, as we said before, are very transient compared to some that are fully formed. And as we said, some of the more transient ones, Jenny's not even aware of them. So we're only going to focus on the more fully formed primaries that Jenny had. So obviously, as we've already discussed, there was four-year-old Symphony. Then there's 11-year-old Judas. According to Jenny, he always looks like he's about to speak. Then you have 18-year-old Muscles. Judas and Muscles are obviously boys,

which again, not all people with DID have other gendered alters. They just generally have their sort of same-sex gender in their mind. But Jenny doesn't. She has boys as well. And apparently Muscles is styled like Billy Idol, and he's strong and calm and protective. Then there's Linda. She's tall and slender and wears a 1950 skirt with a pink poodle on it. And then there's eight-year-old Little Ricky. Little Ricky alongside Symphony is a key player in Jenny's network of alters. It was his job to choose the personalities who would face Jenny's dad. So Symphony creates these

other alters and Little Ricky is the one that chooses which one is going to face the abuse. And apparently he would be the one to almost tap one of the personalities on the shoulder to send them out to face the abuse. According to Jenny, this filled Little Ricky with guilt. But when Little Ricky fronts, he's clear, saying, we're doing it to protect Jenny, because we love her. It's not games or pretending to be other people. We are protecting our soul. It's a war, and we're an army for Jenny and our shared soul.

After the abuse ended, Jenny struggled in constant pain for almost two decades. Before finally, in 1996, she started on a long and painful journey to get help. But just like when she was a child jenny says that her father's abuse was quote so big so overwhelming it has immobilized people trying to help me jenny tried to seek counseling in new south wales and in queensland but she was routinely rejected jenny claims that they'd either accuse her of lying because the abuse she was detailing was so horrendous or they would be so shocked and distressed by the abuse that she herself would end up comforting and counselling them. That's not what you need, is it? My God, sitting opposite your counsellor and being like, oh, it's all right. It's all right. I can't believe it, how many times

she was failed. And this is the thing when people are like, oh, you know, if you've got some problem, just reach out for help and then everything will be fine obviously reaching out for help is a huge thing but jenny does this again and again and people don't or can't help her it's so tragic that happened to a friend of mine like after quite a horrible divorce and her counselor she got like the six sessions on the nhs that you can get and her counselor told her she was like you know i just i get really emotional after our sessions like Like, don't tell her that. That's going to make her feel like there's no hope. My God. Oh, mate, for sure. One of my friends was in therapy and he was like, is it normal that my therapist cries when I'm telling them about stuff? Oh God. And

I'm like, I get it. They're just just people as well and I'm sure there are therapists listening to the show who will probably say maybe say that's completely fine and it's about building a connection and maybe that's fine but like it'd be like if you're I don't know if this is a fair comparison and maybe this won't stay in but like if you went together like Hollywood wax and that woman was like oh god I'd be like what oh that's happened to me that's fully happened to me for real I went for one in Crouch End and I was like so when should I come back six weeks and she was like for your situation five thank you Mara situation I know it's a situation that's why I'm here what's your situation just fucking hairy like a wolf mate like absolute teen wolf over here

I think it's my coil I think like generally I'm of like hairy stock but like I've got the marina coil and I think it just makes me hairier than a normal person you're welcome everyone happy Thursday yes happy Thursday wow well I'm jealous I tried to have the marina coil and I had a severe allergic reaction and they'd pull it out of me I'd rather be hairy than pregnant that's for sure yeah I was gonna say and i'd rather be hairy than not hairy enough so that's all right i think anyway right uh let's put the pube debate to one side for just a second and get back to jenny it would take more painful years of trying and failing before finally in 2009 jenny had found dr george and she finally went to the police to report her father and i love this bit detective paul and dr ge George work together to help Jenny get justice.

And I really feel like Detective Paul in this particular circumstance is so selfless. He's never just like, let's nail this bastard. He just says, it's all for Jenny. It's all so she can get what she's always needed. Justice. But justice was going to be hard. Not only was Richard Haynes now living in the UK, but this was also decades after the abuse had occurred. The evidence they now had was Jenny's body. Because of all of the physical damage she'd suffered, but also they had

her mind. Detective Paul and Dr. George knew that the only way to get justice was that Jenny was going to have to tell of what Richard Haynes had done to her through the voices of her many personalities. So one of the symptoms of DID is amnesia, or an inability, according to the DSM-5, to recall important information that is too extensive to be explained by ordinary forgetfulness. Obviously, you can say, well, trauma can destroy your memory, so it's not necessarily comparable to ordinary forgetfulness. We do know that trauma can destroy memories. But in this case, Jenny's alters could perfectly recall an event that in reality had happened decades ago. So the symptom of amnesia is that Jenny can't necessarily remember

some things that have happened to her. And if you watch the Encina interview, she is like, I know something happened to me and it was some sort of sexual abuse, but I can't really remember it. But her alters can remember it perfectly. So the separate identities therefore enable Jenny to preserve memories that might otherwise be lost to trauma. So if Jenny were able to testify through her altars, she would be able to give incredibly detailed testimony. And she would be a remarkable witness.

Basically, what I'm saying is like an ordinary person without DID testifying in a decades-old abuse case wouldn't be able to give enough testimony or detailed testimony to be strong enough evidence, essentially. Oh, yeah. There was a really famous one. I can't remember whether Radiolab did an episode on it, but there was a really famous child abuse case, which is literally called Child A or something, and it's like the reason that people believe in repressed memory is this specific case. I can hear people shouting at me already. That basically is this little girl in the case. Her mom is being accused of abuse. And this little girl goes into an interview and tells this story of her mom burning

her feet on a stove. But then as she grows up and is an adult, she's like, I don't remember that now as a person. I just am told that I gave this interview when I was like four or whatever but I don't know if it's true even now I just know that I said it and that now woman feels quite betrayed by the whole study because she's like everyone knows about my case but nobody asked me if it was okay I'll try and find it obviously we've talked on the show before about how memory works. No one really knows how memory works. But one of the key things we can say is obviously with time, memories degrade. When you throw trauma on top of it, memories can be totally wiped from the mind. So the thing with DID is that it is almost like a blessing and a curse because Jenny can perfectly

preserve and recall those memories, but only through her alters. So obviously putting Jenny's different personalities on the stand in a criminal high profile case like this was going to be incredibly high risk. Firstly, it would obviously open Jenny up to ridicule and disbelief. Would anyone even believe her if she stood in the stand and spoke through the voices of her other alters? But to get Jenny justice was key, and she was determined to do whatever it took. Before they got to trial, an extradition was needed, and thankfully in 2017 it was approved. 72-year-old Richard Haynes was extradited from Darlington in the northeast of England in 2017.

So presumably the whole family moved back to Britain, then Jenny and Jenny's mum leave, and then they go back to Australia. Yes. Sorry, I'm just nodding. They can't hear that. Yes. So he's extradited from Darlington in 2017. I always think Darlington has a very grim train station. It's the one that you go up to on the train to Edinburgh

and you stop inside Darlington and it's just all really grey and depressing. I don't know if I've ever been past Darlington on the train. Darlington, I'm sure you're lovely, but your train station makes me feel sad. So Richard, when they found him in 2017, had actually already been doing a seven-year prison stretch for something else that he'd done. And when he came to Australia, Haynes initially faced 367 charges, including multiple counts for rape. Can we say this? I don't know. It said it in the article that I was reading about this. Sodomy, should we say?

Let's say sodomy. Yeah. Okay. So the word we're discussing is buggery, which always makes me think of Withnell and I, where he like storms into his bedroom and he was like, I've just narrowly avoided a buggering and I've come here with the express intention of wishing one on you. Anyway, if you haven't watched Withnell and I, go watch it. I mean, this was only in 2017. Maybe in Australia they say buggery. I don't know. Maybe. We'll say sodomy.

We'll say sodomy. It just makes me feel funny. So then we've got indecent assault as well and carnal knowledge of a child under 10. And the prosecution, of course, had their star witness. But would they be able to convince a jury watching a woman transition between different personalities that this was real and credible? To do this, they collected a whole wide range of psychologists and experts in DID to testify about the condition and assure the jury of the reliability of what Jenny would say. And on the 21st of February 2019, in the District Court of New South Wales, the trial of Richard Haynes began, and there were to be six witnesses to the abuse. Jenny,

Judas, Symphony, Muscles, Linda, and Little Ricky. Multiple witnesses, all speaking from one body and jenny says about that day quote we walked in and it was a sense of relief after nine and a half years we got here do they talk to each other yeah they can talk to each other because um like little ricky for example goes and chooses the ones that have to go face the abuse. So four-year-old Symphony is the one that starts the testimony and she relived in excruciating detail the sexual abuse that Richard Haynes had committed over seven painful years. Muscles then gave evidence of the physical abuse while Linda testified on the impact the abuse had on Jenny's education, potential and relationships. Jenny and her alters testified for over two hours in the box and they all stared straight at Haynes as they spoke. Jenny says that it was an incredible feeling and she finally felt validated. But Jenny and her

alters only got through the abuse of up to 1974 when Richard Haynes broke and he finally confessed and pleaded guilty. Upon hearing this Jenny says when he pleaded guilty someone inside us was crying hysterically. But according to Jenny his confession at this stage wasn't because he was sorry. He stopped it because he couldn't deal with it. He didn't want everyone to hear what he'd done. Jenny said of the matter, quote, a truly remorseful man would have pleaded guilty earlier, not maximise my trauma by forcing me to testify. In any case, though, they had done it. Almost four decades after the abuse had ended,

Jenny and her army had won. Before sentencing could occur, Jenny was determined to deliver her victim impact statement. So on that day, she sat across from her 74-year-old father in Sydney's Downing Centre and began to go through her 17-page account. During her speech, Jenny estimates that at least 30 personalities popped in. She noted that at one point, quote, we had to forcibly remove one of them before she leapt over there and smacked him in the mouth. Apparently, Judge Sarah Huggett asked a visibly furious Jenny to take a break.

But Jenny said, I just want to get this done. And again, just as she had done when she was testifying in court, Jenny stared straight at Haynes as she spoke. And this is what she said. She said, quote, he called me daddy's dirty little girl, a floozy, a trollop, a masochist. And he used to say, this hurts me more than it hurts you, before violently raping and buggering me, and even admitted he was only moments away from killing me. Jenny never goes into the details of what Haynes did to her. In fact, even at trial, the evidence in the case against Haynes was deemed too traumatic for a jury, so it was only heard by a judge.

But in her impact statement, Jenny does discuss a few key points. She spoke in particular about something called the birthday ritual, saying that it was something her father would subject her to every birthday and that he would use q is it q pi or qp i don't know i don't know i've no i didn't know what they were until i googled it i was like what the fuck that is so creepy i've seen them before yeah i recognized it as soon as i did but i didn't know that's what they were called they're those like little dolls that have got like pointy heads and they're supposed to look like cherubs. Kewpie? Kewpie? Probably Kewpie. Anyway that's what he would use as weapons to abuse Jenny. Jenny also spoke about how her

father would steal her glasses off her face every time he wanted to abuse her. She said he took away my eyes and held them hostage. Now whenever I cannot see or my vision is impaired, I panic and I am plunged into flashbacks. There are insufficient words to do justice to the enormity of the impact his offending has had on my life. He heard me beg him to stop. He heard me cry. He saw the terror and pain he inflicted on me. He saw the terror and pain he inflicted on me he saw the blood and the physical damage he caused and the next day he chose to do it all over again my dad's abuse was calculated and it was planned it was deliberate and he enjoyed every minute of it a friend of mine who works in hollywood i'm not gonna say who this person was but very famous film producer in LA when his assistant made a

mistake he would take her glasses off her for a week wow well I don't even know what to say I mean that's horrifying but obviously also just with the whole Jenny thing it's like imagine that the abuse was so bad that they felt that the jury couldn't even hear it in this case that only the judge was deemed allowable to see it. How bad must it have been? Honestly, I don't even want to think about it. So Haynes kept his eyes down for most of Jenny's speech when she was giving her victim impact statement. But every now and then, he'd smirk. In Jenny's victim impact statement, she spoke about her DID saying, we spend our lives being wary, constantly on guard. We have to hide our multiplicity and strive for consistency in behavior, attitude, conversation

and beliefs, which is often impossible. Having 2,500 different voices, opinions and attitudes is extremely hard to manage. And as I said earlier in the show, Jenny said that although her DID did save her life and save her soul as far as she's concerned, the same condition has also resulted in great hardship for her. She said in her victim impact statement, quote, I should not have to live like this. Make no mistake, my dad caused my multiple personality disorder. And and tragically even with her 2500 alters jenny feels alone and fears that she always will be thanks to her father and what he did jenny begged judge sarah huggett to send her father to prison for a very long time saying

that quote no part of my world has been left untouched. And Judge Huggett said that it would be impossible for the sentence to truly reflect the gravity of the harm that Haynes had committed. But she sentenced him to a maximum of 45 years with a non-parole period of 33 years. So he'll be eligible for parole in like 2050, but he'll be 107 years old. So it's safe to say that Haynes will die in prison. And although Jenny was 49 when the trial happened, as she is a victim of child abuse, Jenny could have chosen to have anonymity and we would never know her story. But if she had taken the anonymity, then Richard Haynes' identity would also have been protected. So Jenny waived her right to secrecy, saying, I want him to walk into prison

and everyone to know exactly what he did, and I hope that he spends a very long time in prison and every minute of it is as uncomfortable and traumatic as my childhood was, and I hope he hates every minute. Me too, Jenny. Yeah, me too. Jenny's absolutely incredible. She's truly remarkable.

Despite everything that has happened to her, she has achieved so much. She spent her life studying, getting a master's and a PhD in legal studies and philosophy. But tragically, she's struggled to manage full-time work, and she now lives with her mum, and both of them are reliant on welfare to live. But Jenny was thrilled about how the trial went and said that now justice has been done and she just wants to focus on making

new happy memories it's truly a landmark case it's believed to be the first case in which a victim with diagnosed disassociative identity disorder has testified in their other personalities and secured a conviction and there's no doubting its impact. Jenny told the BBC before the sentencing, I passionately want my story told. I want my 10-year struggle for justice to literally have been the fire that ripped through the field so that people behind me have a much easier road. If you have NPD as a result of abuse, justice is now possible. You can go to the police and tell and be believed. Your diagnosis is now no longer a barrier to justice.

And in the same interview, Jenny urged other victims of child abuse to come forward and warned their abusers that children remember. How did he think he was going to get away with it the level of what he was doing to her we could ask that question of all of them how did you think you were going to get away with it yeah true but it's the narcissism it's that personality type of an abuser and also i know this is a very like um frivolous comparison but when i was thinking of what jenny says of what he did to me was so much it was so big that it couldn't be believed it's like matilda and the trunchbull when she would go tell people and they wouldn't believe her like when she throws the girl with the pigtails they're

like no one believed her because she purposefully chose to do things that was so over the top that it was unbelievable to a normal person but yeah that, that is the horrifying case of Jenny Haynes. But also, I think, very inspiring story. Definitely please go watch that documentary with Jenny and the one, if you can, with Encina and the Med Circle. It's a fascinating condition. And I don't want to say that like, oh, fascinating. Like, I understand how difficult it must be for people going through this. It really opened my eyes. And I hope it's done the same for you guys. That's that. Let's, I feel like we say it all the time now.

Let's have a big shift to talk about something else quickly. We've already obviously told you guys about the Spooky Bitch merch. Go check that out. If you would like to, you can also follow us on social media at RedHandedThePod. I am sure this case and some of the cases we've done recently are spreading up a lot of conversation on social media. So if you'd like to be part of that, come follow us because we'd love you to be. After that, if you would like to go one step further and help support the show, you can do that on patreon.com slash redhanded. And we are doing lots of extra bonus content. There's lots of fun stuff going on there. We do an episode on the first Monday of every month for

$10 up patrons. It's just our way of saying thank you. So if you'd like to get access to that, head on over to Patreon and sign up now. And here are some lovely people who have done that. So thank you very much. Ruby, Ashley, Elizabeth, Bleggy, Erica Johnston, Johnstone. Yeah, Chevron, Chevron. That's an interesting of Chavon, I've never seen that before. Renee, Janet Westgarth, Sarah Lowe, Leanne Morrison, Vanessa DeMec Panoso, yeah.

Melanie Broder, Nicole Duncombe, Bianca Davis, Christopher Henn, Kaylee Klee kissoon siobhan ho yeah ashley fellows stephanie moon nicole heather borsma i feel like if you are a patron and you haven't had your name butchered by me are you even a patron tara gillian doug armistead theresa olivero uh jamie bugay uh Teresa Olivero, Jamie Buguet, Andrew McCann, Madeline Mayer, Andrea Cantrell, Bridget Curtin, Katie, Lindsay Hanselman, Momo, Rebecca McDonough, Danielle Demtrack, Anne Harville, Katie Phillips, Rika Gabriel, Edna Iyer, Iza, nobody knows, except except you probably edna i imagine you do know how to say your own name julia wilcox robin humphries sierra sarah skelly kate little wanda smith rebecca jackson 99 shadows edward binbag hands whenever anyone's like oh what are you gonna wear tonight when we go to this whatever i'm just like binbag that's what i'll wear and then my sister

throws me out the window georgia smith Sampson, Marcy Raquel Blackwell, Celeste Mott, Samantha Borghi, Bumblebee, Stephanie Williams, Erin Yokshi. I'm not going to say that because that is your email. Lily Doesmore, Cynthia Gonzalez, Phoebe, Katie Charman-Smith, Catherine Kajisbu, Claudia Ray and Katie. Should we try, maybe that lady's

email is her, like we won't say your email out loud but maybe it's Erin Yoshiko? Yeah, I'm going to go with that. Erin Yoshiko, I think. If we won't read your Gmail out though. No, that's you just don't say your don't say anything ever.

Don't say. In which people can contact you. But anyway, thank you guys so much. And we will see you next week. See you next week. Bye. Bye. Bye. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America.

But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudine Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On The Media. To listen, subscribe to On Theained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained.

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