RedHanded - Episode 130 - Ana Kriégel & The Case of Ireland’s Youngest Convicted Killers

Episode Date: January 16, 2020

When 14 year old Ana Kriégel was found in an old, abandoned Manor House in Lucan, Dublin the sheer brutality of her murder horrified a nation.  But the revelation that the perpetrators of this incredibly violent, sexually-motivated crime were themselves kids - even younger than Ana - raised dark questions about guilt, innocence and the idea of dangerous children.  References: https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/ana-kriegel-murder-boy-a-sentenced-to-life-boy-b-sentenced-to-15-years-1.4072944 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7D4jygfJTY https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/boy-convicted-of-ana-kriegel-murder-incredibly-sorry-38642533.html https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/breaking-ana-kriegel-murder-boy-20815532 https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ana-kriegel-verdict-the-evidence-the-jury-did-not-hear-931435.html https://www.thesun.ie/news/4876479/ana-kriegel-hellhole-house-renovations-demands-demolish/ https://edition.cnn.com/2019/11/05/europe/ana-kriegel-ireland-youngest-killers-scli-intl/index.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7629567/Mother-murdered-Ana-Kriegel-haunted-torture-sadistic-violation-daughter.html https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/10237395/ana-kriegel-mum-life-destroyed-murder-dublin/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48991131 https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/ana-kriegel-murder-trial-jury-asked-to-consider-if-theres-any-real-evidence-boy-a-planned-any-of-this-at-all-38198380.html https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/ana-kriegel-murder-trial-dad-of-boy-b-says-his-son-didnt-tell-him-full-story-at-beginning-as-he-couldnt-believe-it-38179372.html See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hannah.

I'm Saruti. And welcome to Red Handed. We're back in Ireland this week and for the first time in quite a while. If you're listening in Ireland, you probably already know this one, Inside Out. And I do think it's probably the most requested case that we've had in the last year. That's true. So many people. Like, not even just in Ireland.

Like, this has been a huge story, it feels like, in quite a few places. Maybe because it's just so shocking. It's like a it's like a crime drama it's very very much like a crime drama I think the last time I not that I was rolling my eyes at what happened just like rolling my eyes at like the absurdity of if I had seen some of these things play out in a crime drama I'd be like come on this is the most lazy writing I've ever seen yeah yeah exactly the only time I roll my eyes that hard is like when I'm on Hinge so yeah it's it's horrific but

also in a way if it was scripted you'd be like please come on now yeah we were talking about this last night actually there's been a real drop off in the caliber of Hinge after Christmas I found during Christmas I was like, this is great. Look at all of these normal people with their normal jobs and their funny jokes. And now it's just back to like trash people from Garbage Land. It's awful. It's awful. I was on Hinge yesterday and quite a bit.

And I was just like, what the fuck is this fucking fuck? And then I reopened my Tinder account. So there you go. Uh-oh. I know. Send help. One of my housemates has done reasonably all right on Tinder, but we've... Let's have a look.

I think it's... The golden age is over. I think it's like white pedal pushers. I think you have to just recycle things. Maybe it's time for Tinder to make a comeback. Maybe... I think it's time. The dark days are over.

Exactly. I think it's the time for Tinder. I was talking to Hannah about this in the pub last week. And I was like, my biggest, my single biggest regret is that during Tinder's golden age, which is probably I'd say about five years ago, I didn't take it at all seriously. And I thought this will never end. It was like the dot com bubble. I was like, this is amazing.

And then it burst all over my face. And now I'm back on tinder five years later and it's probably gonna be a big fucking bin fire so let's have a look let's see how it goes guess who's getting sent a lot of penises it's you oh god please don't I don't want to see it but anyway we're well off track already I've literally read one line of the script. Oh, yeah. Good. And we're off. So, for British people listening, we're going to try and stop and keep ourselves off the Tinder topic this week.

You might recognise elements of this case because it's quite similar to the James Bulger case which happened here in the UK in 93, I think. And the similarities are essentially no motive has ever been established and the perpetrators did not exhibit any warning signs in the immediate run-up to the brutal sexual assault and murder they committed or in the years previously. This attack seemed to come out of absolutely nowhere and this case has opened up a lot of debate around how freely available pornography is to children and what effect that is having on young people today and how it can be policed, if it can be policed at all.

And we'll be all over that later on, but first we have to tell you what happened. Sunday the 13th of May 2018 was an above average day for Anastasia Creasal. She had exams coming up at school, so her mum Geraldine offered to sit her down and help her prepare. But Anna, as everyone called her, told her mum, you must be exhausted. We can do it later. So mother and daughter just hung out together instead. Fourteen-year-old Anna had a hard time making friends at school, but she and her mum were very close. One of Anna's primary school teachers called Geraldine and her husband Patrik to express her concern about Anna moving on to secondary school, worried that her desperation for friendship and to be accepted

would make her incredibly vulnerable to bullying. And unfortunately, this teacher was right. But not on that Sunday. The only friends Anna had were her cousins, and they all piled into her house in Lucan, a large village suburb of Dublin, about 12 kilometres outside the city centre. And they all had pizza into a house in Lucan, a large village suburb of Dublin, about 12 kilometres outside the city centre. And they all had pizza and a Chinese takeaway, and the children played together while the adults had a drink in the conservatory.

Later on, Anna and one of her cousins went up to her room to make YouTube videos. Anna used a lot of social media platforms. In fact, by the looks of things, she used pretty much all of them. She was on Instagram, Snapchat, Facebook, and something I really find very sinister called House Party, which I hate it, don't like it, and I don't have a clue what it is. No idea. I asked my sister, and apparently it's like MSN,

but your parents have control over who you speak to. What? So, like, your parents set it up for you, and they can, like, approve the people you're allowed to speak to. So, basically, it's just like MSN, but making sure you're not talking to strangers, basically. What kid is using that, then, apart from Anna? Like, what?

I think it's reasonably popular. Really? That's so bizarre. How the hell did they manage that? I have no clue. I don't understand. Like, I had MSN. I didn't even use Bebo.

I didn't use anything. I didn't even use Bebo. I didn't use anything. I didn't even have Facebook till first year of uni. So like I'm so fucking out of the loop on this. Chat roulette. Do you remember that? That was weird. Oh, yeah. I used to do that one.

God. So did Robbie Williams. Can you imagine how excited the child sex offenders were when that became a thing? Fucking hell. I don't even have to go outside to flash at kids anymore. Oh my God. But I think Anna was probably on all of these social media platforms due to the relative isolation she faced kind of in the real world.

But regardless, Anna's bullies still hounded her on every social media platform that she participated in. She had about 100 followers on YouTube and she often made videos about things like dancing, makeup, clothes, just like normal 14 year old girl stuff. But she would get savaged in the comments. One user wrote that they wanted to have Anna executed and another told her to go die. We don't know who her online haters were, but we know who her offline haters were. And unfortunately, it was pretty much

everyone in her year at school. Anna didn't quite fit in. She had been adopted by her parents from Western Siberia at the age of two in February 2004. For Geraldine, a manager at the State Transport Company, and Patrik, a retired French professor at Dublin Institute of Technology, she was a dream come true. As she got older, the girl who her mother described as electric and full of fun would be consistently taunted and misunderstood by her peers. Anna was teased mercilessly for having fake parents, for being a weirdo and a slut. They called her a weirdo because kids are cruel

and because Anna was naive and socially awkward. This was not helped by the fact Anna had a tumour removed from her right ear, which left her with significant hearing loss in that ear, and that meant that she would always stand to the left of somebody, otherwise she wouldn't be able to hear what they were saying. The surgery also left Anna with poor eyesight and a scar on the back of her head. Anna physically stood out from the crowd as well. She looked much older than she was. She was taller than most other people. She was even taller than her dad. As her mum put it, she was a typical Siberian.

And she is really striking. When this all happens, I think she actually had dark hair, but I think she's naturally blonde. Really, really, really blue eyes. And she was 5'8", at 14. This was your sort of case suggestion that you really wanted to do. And I didn't know too much about it. And I remember seeing pictures of Anna. And when you told me it was like, she was 14. This was your sort of case suggestion that you really wanted to do. And when I didn't know too much about it, and I remember seeing pictures of Anna, and when you told me it was like, she was 14. I was like, was she? She looks about 18 in some of her photos that I've seen. Yeah, she definitely

looks significantly older than everyone else and different. And looking older and potentially further along in puberty is all it took for people to start calling Anna a slut. I know exactly what that's like. Like if you've got stupidly large boobs like I have and they start to show up when you're about 14, people just assume all sorts of things about you. Oh, absolutely. Which is so silly. Like, you can't control, like, you know.

It's just the sexualisation of children that we are obsessed with in society. And I can imagine that kind of bullying happening with peers, especially, you know, if you start to develop your breasts at a very early age and they're larger than everybody else's. But just the thought of, like, walking to school and walking home from school in a school uniform with that kind of figure that you have no control over,

just like weird old men in vans, I can imagine. And I don't know if you saw this. Somebody posted this on the Facebook group just yesterday, and it was about a teacher. God, I've forgotten the name of the school he was in, but I know his name and I'm going to fucking name him because fuck this guy. So his name was Stephen Lindridge, was, is, and he was a teacher and he was like teaching teenage girls and he told one of his students that she had enormous breasts. He hit her on the ass with a rolled up newspaper, called her cheeky, said he missed her magic fingers.

Oh, and kissed her on the neck. And then he was sacked by the school, went to a tribunal. And the tribunal said that he was a good teacher and none of his actions were sexually motivated. And now he does not have a classroom ban. So watch out for Stephen Lindridge coming back to a classroom somewhere near you, potentially. This was in the UK. Outrageous. what gives him i didn't read the article but um i was just about to say i've seen the memes then i haven't been

looking at about memes about child abuse but i have sort of read the outline of that story and it's absolutely appalling well it's like there was a case in um in ireland a few years ago where a judge said a girl but basically he judged the guilt of a rapist on the underwear the girl was wearing and just the number of stuff we see where it's like judges will deem the uh deem a child to be quote unquote sexually promiscuous and i'm guessing also there have been cases and not i'm guessing there have been cases where judges will also deem the uh involvement or the sort of level of uh responsibility that a child should take because of the way she appears. So if she has gone through puberty earlier, if she seems more womanly in her figure, she's still got the mind of a child.

You do realize that. And a man taking advantage of that, she doesn't have anything to do with it just because she seems to have. She has size C boobs instead of A like everybody else in her age bracket. Like, oh, fuck everything. This is just, oh, anyway, I need to calm down. I never even faced any of these. I've been a solid B my entire life. I wish I was. If you've got giant boobs, love your giant boobs. Don't hate them. They're fine. Probably. Anna faced all of these kinds of problems. And there was a particularly unpleasant incident on Halloween where Anna had been walking home after volunteering to supervise

a children's disco and she was followed home by four older boys. One of them asked her for sex and smacks her on the arse. This was reported and the boy received a caution from the Garda. If you've listened to any of our Irish cases previously you'll already know that Garda is Irish Irish for police. So when we're saying Garda or Gardi, that's what we're talking about. Anna also received sexually suggestive text messages from a boy two years above her at school. She got caught up in multiple fights and she went home with black eyes. When Anna had started secondary school, she had written a paragraph about her hopes for the future. She talks about studying in Paris like her dad did and getting dog, and getting married. She ended the paragraph with, I hope I have a good life. I hope everyone I meet will be nice. But as I'm sure you have already

guessed by now, Anna would not meet very many nice people at all. As Anna's suffering at school and emotional issues got worse, her parents approached Kildare Youth Services for help. And after some difficulty, they were able to secure a counsellor for Anna, who she saw regularly. She had an appointment with her counsellor the day after her cousins had come over. So her mother Geraldine wrote Anna a note, saying she could leave school at 2.30 in order to attend it. Before the Creajal family went to sleep that Sunday night, at about 10pm, Anna asked her mother to wake her up the next morning before she left for work. Geraldine did just this on Monday the 14th of May 2018. She woke Anna up and then headed off for her job in the centre of the city. Anna then got up, put on her school uniform, had some

breakfast and went to school. Anna had her morning lessons, then she went home to eat before her counselling session. After counselling, Anna went back home, ate some oven chips and went to her room. At 4.02pm, Anna rung her mum twice, but Geraldine was in a meeting and couldn't answer. She told Anna this by text. Then something strange happened. At 4.55pm, there was a boy at the Creadle home front door

and he was looking for Anna. Patryk was a bit surprised by this, but thought nothing of it. Anna ran upstairs to grab a black hoodie before leaving the house. Her and the boy whispered to each other excitedly before they went out the door. Seconds after Anna had left, Patryk realised that he'd completely forgotten to ask her where she was going. So he went to the door and saw Anna and the boy walking towards St Catherine's Park. The boy had a small backpack and was walking in front of Anna. They were not walking together and they weren't speaking. We don't know this boy's name. We only know him as Boy B. And the brightest pixies among you will already know that a name like that means

three things. One, he is anonymous because he did something bad. Two, where there is boy B, there is boy A. And three, whatever boy B did, it can't be as bad as what boy A did. And if you assumed all of those things, you assumed correctly, so you can have some points. As Anna walked out of her front door with boy B, her mum Geraldine was on the way home from work. At 5.10pm, so that's just what, 15 minutes later, Geraldine returned Anna's call,

but it went straight to answer phone. Geraldine thought nothing of this. She was close to home and thought that she would see Anna when she got there. But of course Anna wasn't at home. Geraldine was immediately concerned by this when Patrick told her that a boy had come round to pick Anna up, because Geraldine knew that nobody ever called for Anna. But not wanting to seem like a paranoid or overprotective parent, Geraldine told herself that everything was fine and that Anna would be home any minute. Who knew? Maybe she had finally managed to make some friends at school. So Geraldine and Patrick had dinner together, but their anxiety increased as each minute passed. At 5.30, Geraldine sent Anna a text that said, Home now. Which is just the most terrifying message you could get from your mum

as a 14-year-old, I think. Oh man, that would literally send chills down my spine if I got that message from my mum at 14 years old. Even now I would be scared. Even if my mum texts me home now i'd be scared i'd be like oh i have to go oh god she might as well just be like game over just text you that and when this message was met with no response gerardine knew something was wrong so minutes later she sent another message that read answer me now or I'm calling the police. Again, there was no reply

from Anna. This was totally out of character. According to her parents, even if Anna wasn't talking to you, she would always reply to a text. So Geraldine walked to St. Catherine's Park, which was the sort of last direction that she was seen walking in. And she was expecting to find Anna sitting on a bench or running around, but she was nowhere to be seen. So the Creajals then got in their car and drove around looking for Anna, and they rang around to see if anyone had seen her. But no one had. But they did have one lead, Boy B. They knew that he had taken Anna somewhere, so they went on Facebook to find out his last name, which they managed,

and then they rang around again to find out who his parents were, but they didn't have any luck. And when it got to 8pm, they were at panic stations. And at 9pm, the Creagels reported Anna missing at their local Garda station after consulting a family friend and retired detective John Cribben. Garda assured the Creagels that children run off all the time and they usually show up within a few hours, but they did take the creadles seriously, so they set off for Boy B's house to see if he knew anything,

which, of course, he did. But getting the truth out of him would take weeks. Garda Conamuldoon was tasked with questioning Boy B at his home. He called round between 9pm and 10pm, and he explained to Boy B's parents that Anna was missing and the last known person to have seen her was their son. Boy B looked surprised and scared, which seems like a normal reaction for a 13-year-old boy to have when the police show up at their house looking for them. Boy B

told Garda Muldoon that he had walked with Anna to the park and that he had left her there at 5.40pm and he'd not seen her since. He didn't know what she did, who she was with or where she went after that. Boy B's father would later claim that he knew his son was trying to say something but he just didn't want to say it in front of or to his dad. The next day when no one had seen hide nor hair of Anna, even the Gardaí became concerned. A search party was deployed, and Sergeant John Dunn went to have another crack at Boy B, suspecting that there was more to his story than he was letting on. Sergeant John was, of course, absolutely right.

Boy B's version of events was an ever-changing beast. This time, Boy B explained that he had picked Anna up and taken her to the park because Boy A had asked him to. Apparently, Anna had a bit of a thing for Boy A and he wanted to tell her that he just wasn't interested. So Boy B had delivered Anna into this difficult conversation. Once Boy A and Anna were together, Boy B claimed that he just scurried off home to do his homework. There's going to be a lot of his homework there's going to be a lot of this there's going to be a lot of like and then i just went home and climbed into bed and even though it was only 6 p.m i just i just fell straight asleep because i'd spend all day doing

my homework and my chores because i'm a good boy yeah there's a lot of that like what is the what is the best thing i could possibly be perceived to be doing at this particular moment and i will tell them that that is what i was doing boys are so stupid honestly well kids are so stupid these kids are so stupid and they're just like yeah he just wanted to tell her that he just wasn't interested so I was like kind enough to go get her and I just went home because I had homework to do and then I assume everything was fine oh god so sergeant dunn took boy b to St. Catharines Park and he asked him to retrace his steps. Boy B showed them where he had met Boy A and where he had left Boy A and Anna talking. The guard had marked all of these points on their GPS system and sent Boy B off home.

Then a public appeal was launched. The people of Leuken were asked to look out for the 5'8 Anna wearing a black hoodie with white writing down the sleeves. She was described as having a slim build and sallow skin, which I thought was unkind and unnecessary. Exactly. Why? It just makes her sound ill. It does. Sallow skin to me makes me think of someone who's a bit yellow, like a bit jaundiced or something. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, maybe she was she? I don't know, but it seems a bit...

I don't think so. I think she's quite pale, but that's not out of the ordinary. Exactly. I think the fact that she's five foot eight and like 14 and looks incredibly striking anyway would have been enough. Can I just put a picture out there? Why sallow skin? I don't know.

God, I hope no. How would someone describe us if we went missing? Hopefully not as fucking sallow skinned. I don't know. I was thinking about that the other day. Giant big mouth foghorn gone missing. Giant boobs. Very tall.

I don't know. I don't want to think about that for myself. Let's just... I'm just going to leave it at that. Please don't write descriptions for us if we go missing. Small brown lady goes missing. Probably wearing incredibly inappropriate footwear. There you go.

Last seen falling out of garlic and shots. Oh my God. Oh, that was... I suddenly noticed and realised what it was as well when I put the picture of the menu of the 101 shots that they served on Instagram and someone was like garlic and shots I was like good you've been here then you've been through what I went through so yeah uh my friend got engaged Iman got engaged which was very nice I saw I saw I saw yeah so we went out to uh have a few drinks

on Friday night and Jesus Christ I absolutely I think I've just stopped smelling like garlic and alcohol. That was a lot. That was a lot. So as nasty as that description may seem, the leads did come flooding in. People claim to have seen Anna in South Dublin and one civilian claimed to have spotted her at Dublin airport, which considering Anna had left both her Irish and Russian passports at home, seemed incredibly unlikely. Boy B and the guard walked the railway tracks to aid in the ground search, but like everyone else, they found nothing. Until they ran into a man who suggested that they have a look around the back of the local sewage treatment plant,

which was a popular hotspot for teens to get off with each other and get drunk. I don't know. And this is the point in the story where if I was watching it on TV, I would not believe it. And I would think that the writer should be sacked. And potentially there may have been a writer's strike because this is such lazy writing. This man who pointed the Garda

in the direction of the local sewage plant was the father of boy A. I hate it. So, so fake. So fake. Also, why are these kids hanging around a local sewage treatment plant? That sounds horrific. Well, that's the classic, there's nowhere else to go, I think.

So boy A was already known to the police, but interestingly, not for causing trouble. The day that Anna had gone missing, he had returned to his parents' house displaying injuries consistent with being in a fight. His arms were grazed and his face was cut and he told his parents and later the guarder that he had been attacked by two men in St Catherine's Park

and that he had managed to fight them off and kick one of them in the head. Again, this is just like a fucking teenage boy's wet dream. Like, yeah, I was set upon and I kicked them in the head again this is just like a fucking teenage boy's wet dream like yeah i was set upon and i kicked them in the head and fought them off and defended myself and i just came home with some grazers and a cut on my face like fuck off no you didn't it's literally it's a fantasy yeah oh these two huge guys jumped me in the park but don't worry kicked him in the head they ran away from me because I am so powerful and strong. Exactly.

But interestingly, like all of this like storytelling is quite satisfyingly like what gets him totally fucked over, which is quite nice. So boy A, when he made this claim, was taken to the Garda headquarters in Phoenix Park, Dublin, where he helped them put together an e-fit of his attackers. Nobody in the park had seen anyone fitting those descriptions wandering around St Catherine's Park that day though. And that's because they were, of course, entirely made up.

I'm just like, with boy A and with boy B, they're so brazen. They have like none of the levels of deep, deep fear I had at that age of almost everything in terms of authority. I think this case has given me more like reminiscent anxiety. My stomach has just been in knots reading about this, thinking about like when I did something so minor, as it like getting a detention for like going on Myspace or something stupid. And just like having to sit on the bus home and then walk all the way home and know that I had to tell my mom. Oh, my God.

Oh, like it's making me feel ill even now. And I had never done anything even close to what these kids do. God, no. I once got a B on like a maths thing and I cried and then was absolutely terrified to come home and tell my parents. And these kids are just going to the fucking Garda headquarters, lying about getting beaten up, creating e-fits, just chatting shit to the police. Can you imagine? Fucking hell, I was such a like, I was such a like good kid. I was just scared of ever being in trouble. This whole story just gives me so much anxiety because of that. Obviously the Gardi weren't stupid and they were suspicious of Boy A's story right from the off. But of course they still had to go through due

process. Now the clothes that Boy A had been wearing during the alleged attack were taken as evidence, even though his mum had already washed them. They also took his boots that he had been wearing that day. And by Tuesday afternoon, Boy A had been linked to the disappearance of Anna Creagel. So the guardie took both boy A and boy B to St Catherine's Park again and asked them both to retrace their steps. Boy B took the Gardie down a different route than he had done before. He's so stupid. He's so stupid. What are you doing? Well, kids do this, though.

I mean, they are a little bit old to not understand that adults know when you're lying. It's this spinning of, oh, if I just say it enough, they'll believe me. When I was teaching in Korea, the Korean teachers didn't seem to grasp the concept that kids lie. The teachers would just believe everything that these kids would say. This one kid who was my nemesis, I had a padlock on my classroom, and I saw him put the code in and open the classroom, which is obviously not allowed to do. So I went and told the Korean teachers and they were like, OK, we'll speak to him. And they came back and he said, oh, no, he said he didn't do it.

And I was like, but I saw him. I, the adult woman who is paid to be here, saw him do it. But you're just like, oh, no, never mind. Don't give kids the benefit of the doubt. New rule. Don't do it. They'll lie to you. and that wasn't the only thing that was strange once the boys reached a bmx track in the park they looked at each other in a suspicious enough way that both guard are present noticed it nope stop it's just again it is just, are we writing a fucking Channel 5 true crime TV show?

Like, no shade on Channel 5. Obviously, if you want to sponsor us, you can definitely do that. But, God fucking hell, it's just like, don't look at each other suspiciously. Do you know what it is? It's like a particularly dark storyline from Biker Grove. That's what it is. Oh my God. It's like exchanging a shifty glance cut

to a bmx trick exactly it's biker grove exactly it's like fucking i don't know it's like the simpsons don't do the shifty eye thing when the fucking police are watching you also don't not look at each other ever because that's also suspicious i just don't know i don't know or maybe just don't fucking do what they did and then they wouldn't be in this situation. Don't murder people. But if you do murder somebody, and this isn't advice, I'm just saying, if you do murder somebody, don't fucking just talk endlessly to the police, give them a variety of different stories and then look incredibly suspiciously at the other person involved in the case.

That's it. My top tips. And don't drink anything they give you. They'll take your DNA. Good. The DNA anything they give you. They'll take your DNA. Good. The DNA bandits just running around. Dude, they'll take your fingerprints and DNA off the cup. Always say no.

Statements were taken from both boys so they could clarify their exact movements. And these were, of course, taken separately with their parents present. Boy B stuck to his guns, saying that he had no idea what had happened to Anna. He'd only realised that something bad had gone on when Gardie turned up at his door. Boy A gave a similarly

untrue statement. Apparently, Boy B had come round his house asking him to play out after school, but Boy A was busy doing his chores like a good boy, so he told Boy B that he would meet him in the park later on. Hmm. Yep. The more you find out about Boy A, the less and less likely it's going to seem that he's ever done any chores in his entire fucking life. Yeah. So when Boy A got to the park, he claims to have seen Boy B with Anna. He knew Anna from school, but not that well. Boy B, however, was one of his best friends. Also, he said Boy B categorizes Boy A as an acquaintance, which I think tells you quite a lot about what's going to happen next. Then Boy B disappeared from the narrative for Boy A's story.

And Boy A claimed that Anna had asked him to go out with her and then he had let her down gently and then the two had gone their separate ways. There was still no sign of Anna on the Wednesday. And now everyone was starting to think the worst. On Thursday the 17th of May, Sergeant Declan Birchall and his team were sent out as part of the search to an area of Lucan near St Catherine's Park that included a building called Glenwood House. This house was just three kilometres from Anna's family home and Glenwood House had once been a rather grand affair. It'd been bought by a wealthy family of hoteliers for 10 million euro, with the intention that it be turned into a giant nursing home. But since the purchase of the house, it had fallen into woeful disrepair.

The roof had collapsed in several places, there was graffiti all over the place, and judging by the wealth of condom wrappers on the floor, it had clearly become Canoodle Central. Because obviously the sewage plant isn't as appealing as an old dilapidated building in the woods. So, you know, here you go. Well, you know, maybe they were really strapped for options. Maybe. You've got to have some choice. You've got to mix it up when you're having, you know, sex in public.

I don't know. Well, they probably can't go to their parents' houses. No, no, definitely not. Fucking Catholic country, mate. Oh, I'm with you. I'm with you. And the important thing to note about Glenwood House is we are not talking about a cottage here. This is a manor house.

It's absolutely massive and above all imposing. Once again, the perfect fictional setting for this murder drama that seems to be inexplicably unravelling in real life. So the Gardie knew all about Glenwood House. They got called there often when teenagers were misbehaving. So Birchland and his team entered the building and made their way into a part of the abandoned house

that would later become known as Room 1. Many of the windows at Glenwood House were boarded up so that even in the middle of the day, it was dark inside. As the Garda looked around Room 1, one Garda would spot something that he thought either would be a mannequin or, quote, something terrible. The smell of blood hung in the air.

And of course it wasn't a mannequin. It was 14-year-old Anna Creagel. Anna was naked but for her black socks. Her clothes, including her distinctive black hoodie, were strewn all around the room. And so were her false nails, indicating that whatever had happened to Anna, she had fought viciously for her life. The floor was saturated with blood and so were a 92-centimetre wooden stick with a nail at either end and a concrete block. There was Tescon brand builder's tape around Anna's neck. Three of her fingers were tucked underneath it as if she'd been trying to free herself. Anna's hair was matted in her face as if she had been thrashing around.

Apparently the guard that spotted her thought that there was something on her face like a piece of material or a piece of clothing whatever but it's actually just her hair. It is honestly one of the most violent crime scenes that we've ever encountered or described. The post-mortem revealed that Anna had sustained over 50 injuries during the attack that had killed her, and the cause of death was determined to be blunt force trauma to the head. Anna had also been sexually assaulted. There had been, at the very least, an attempt to penetrate her.

She was killed just 45 minutes after she had left her house. She never received her mother's worried calls or text messages because she was already gone. It was determined by blood pattern analysts that Anna had been struck several times in the corner of room one near the doorway and then she had been moved closer to the window where the light had been better and attacked again. All of the items in room one were taken in as forensic evidence and tested for trace DNA. But they found a whole lot more than a trace. Anna's top had been recovered from the crime scene and it was found to have semen on it and that semen belonged to boy A. And the Guardian knew this because they already had boy A's DNA on the system because of his assault report.

Boy A's DNA was also a match for a sample taken from Anna's neck. And on top of that, the boots that they had taken from his mum were found to have Anna Creagel's blood on them. No fingerprints were found at the crime scene. Now, the guardee had a murder investigation on their hands and Boy A and B had some splaining to do. Both boys were taken in for questioning again, but this time to separate garter stations. Boy B told investigators that about a month before, Boy A had asked him, hey, want to kill somebody? To which he had said no. Boy A asked him why not,

and Boy B asked him who he wanted to kill. Apparently, Boy A told him, Anna Creajal. Boy B then claimed that he told Boy A, in your dreams, and thought nothing more of it. And he says that he never thought that this conversation was a serious statement of intent. Once again, this is just such a like, and I was just like, no, in your dreams, get away from me. I've got homework to do. Like, shut the fuck up. And also, Boy B's story changed so many times. But he was prompted to tell the truth, or at least some of it, when he was presented with CCTV footage from St. Catharines Park on the day that Anna had gone missing.

Boy B, remember, had, like, taken the guardie around, he'd retraced his steps, etc, etc. But the thing is, Boy B was never in any of the places that he had told them originally that he had been in. And I think at this point, even he knew that the jig was up. The investigating officers were very gentle with Boy B. They let him take breaks whenever he wanted, and they even went to the shop to get him Ribena and chewing gum. They were nice, but they made it clear that they knew that he was lying. After hours of interrogation in front of his parents, Boy B asked if his mother would leave the room.

Honestly, that would just send chills up my spine if I was that woman. But the officers present told him that under the law, that would not be possible because he was, as the Ribena order suggested, just so young. And if you want to read the whole account, then the absolute best article out there on this case is linked below. It's called Anna Creagel, Murder Trial, The Complete Story by Connor Gallagher. Boyby tells about eight different stories and we can't go through all of them because we'll be here

forever and it just it confuses the issue i think like what you need to know is that in each version of his story he gets closer and closer to glenwood house and closer and closer to anna's murder here is the bottom line this is what he finally sort of decided on as being his final story after days of questioning boy b admitted that he'd taken Anna Criagel, not to the park as he initially claimed, that he had taken her to Glenwood House, where Boy A was lying in wait. Boy B then waited around and watched as Boy A attacked Anna. In his most complete confession, Boy B admits to Boy A flipping Anna in a judo or wrestling move. Then he pulled at her bra with one hand and smothered her with the other.

Anna was crying. Then both Boy A and Anna turned to look at him as he stood in the doorway, and this made him terrified and he ran away. He said that Boy A had a blank look on his face. As Boy B ran, he heard Anna scream. And this scream was almost immediately muffled, as if a hand had been clamped over Anna's mouth mouth in one of the stories he tells he's like oh i heard her scream but i thought oh boy a's so big and strong and can do judo he'll protect her the same boy a that apparently a

month before told you that he wanted to kill somebody and specifically named anna craigel yeah good uh this is what i mean though like they're just telling the most ridiculous lies that any adult with a tiny bit of common sense would see straight through. But they don't really seem to. I mean, that is what it is, really, I suppose. When asked why he had done nothing to protect Anna, Boy B replied, Because I was scared. I was shocked. I didn't know what to do because my brain was frozen. Frozen. In place. Not frozen enough to stop him from running away, though, it would seem.

Gaudi made it clear to Boy B that he could have saved Anna's life. And he didn't. And then he could have told the truth from the start. But he didn't. Boy B claimed that he didn't know that Boy A would actually murder Anna, even though he had told him that he wanted to a month or so before. And I think that's what's difficult. Like like this is kind of what the whole case of boy b hinges on because there are some points where I'm kind of rooting for him and I don't think he's as responsible but whether you think he's responsible or not really comes down to whether he really thought that boy a was being serious or whether that conversation happened at all because boy a completely denies it yeah no that's, that's true. And I actually think that Boy B, if he had just kept his mouth shut, possibly wouldn't be in the situation that he is in today.

Oh, I agree. I agree totally. When showed pictures of Anna's body, Boy B was apparently shocked to see that the tape around Anna's neck was the very same brand that he had taken from his dad's shed and lent to Boy A some weeks before. Boy A had needed to repair a grip on one of his toys. Also, he said...

Toys? They're 13! I know. When Boy B goes to juvenile detention, he asks for Lego to play with. Oh my God. Yeah, they're really, really young. So, due to the anonymous nature of this case, it is very difficult to know much about Boy B.

But we do know that he was above average intelligence. He did well at school. He was from a loving middle class family. And there were no red flags in this boy's history at all. And there weren't any in Boy A's childhood either. No abuse, no violence, no temporal lobe damage. Nothing. Nothing that we normally see in such cases.

Just normal middle-class lives so there is no question that these kids knew the difference between right and wrong i'm jake warren and in our first season of finding i set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life you can listen to finding natasha right now exclusively on wondery plus in season two i found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post

by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance,

but it instantly moved me, and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus.

Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Cone. Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party, so. Yeah, that's what's up. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution. I was f***ed up. I hit rock bottom, but I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit,

it's not real. Now it's real. From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is The Rise and Fall of Diddy. Listen to The Rise and Fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery Plus. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either

until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts.

In another Garda station, Boy A was also being questioned. And he was still claiming that he had only seen Anna briefly, and he pointed out on a map of St. Catharines Park where he had last seen her. But just like Boy B, he too was proven to be lying by the CCTV footage that had been collected. Then the guardie told him that Anna's blood had been found on his boots that had been taken as evidence after his alleged attack. And Boy A answered this revelation with a very eloquent, are you joking me? And obviously I don't know the tone in which that was heard, but I'm like, again, just coming back to somebody

as a child who would have been terrified of authority. Pretty sassy from Boye. They got your fucking DNA. It's not formal, but it is, you're much more, I feel like an Irish person is much more likely to say, are you joking me, than an English person is. It's kind of quite a common phrase, I would argue. But you're right, it's not um this

doesn't sound like a scared boy no that's the thing that's terrifying about boy a really i think boy b is just talking talking talking but i do think he's scared and that's why he's doing it boy a is uh fucking scary as we'll go on to find out but the officers to his are you joking me uh replied that this was no joking matter, so Boy A requested to be let out for some air. When he came back, he fiercely denied having anything to do with Anna's death, or even being in the same room with her, in Glenwood House. He was adamant that Boy B's story was not the truth.

But the forensic evidence against him would make that more and more difficult for the guardie to believe. And the case would only get stronger. On the 24th of May, so ten days after Anna left her house for the last time, both Boy's houses were searched. A wardrobe in Boy A's bedroom revealed a chilling discovery. A backpack, which contained black gloves, shin guards, knee pads, a snood, and most bizarrely, a homemade zombie mask. All of these items, especially the mask, were stained with Anna's blood, and the backpack would become known as the murder kit. That is absolutely terrifying. I actually think that's one of the scariest things of this whole

story. Because, okay, if we say that perhaps what happened is that boy B went to get Anna and he lured her to Glenwood House. Boy A tries to have sex with her. She says no. So he rapes her and he kills her. It's sort of like not a premeditated thing. It happens in the moment. Obviously not saying that's okay, but let's say that's what happened. That is not at all what can have happened because he's packing all this shit including a zombie mask

he is trying to scare her that's what he wants oh my god it's so sinister i think boy b is not gonna deliver anna to glenwood house to someone dressed up like a zombie and think that she's gonna be fine there's just no way oh. Honestly, it's the most terrifying thing because I think what happens is he's dressed up like this. He gets Boy B to go get her. Boy B lures Anna into the house. She walks through the door and Boy A just blitz attacks her and just goes fucking crazy. That's what I feel like happened here. And Boy B just pegs it. Oh, I hate it. It's so terrifying. Furthermore, two iPhones were recovered from boy A's bedroom, which between them featured over 12,000 pornographic images,

a great deal of which depicted extreme sexual violence and some of which featured young girls in school uniform, which is probably less sinister because he is 13. But I mean, the whole school uniform thing is like, we're sick, man. We're such a sick society. This is 13. But I mean, the whole school uniform thing is like, we're sick, man. We're such a sick society. This is unbelievable. And bear in mind what Hannah just said

and what she's about to tell you. He's 13. Yeah. Okay. It's just all, we all got that into our heads. Okay, let's go. His search history revealed even more horrors. He had searched for child porn, dark web, horse porn,

animal porn and abandoned places in Lucan. I mean can we just unpack that for a second. The level of premeditation that is going on looking for abandoned places in Lucan like all of this stuff the zombie and we know he was wearing it because it's got Anna's blood on it so it wasn't just like something he took a lot like he used it and he planned to use it and secondly the school uniform stuff and the child pornography the animal pornography like the level of like deviance that he's showing at the age of 13 is unbelievable like what the fuck this is crazy yeah because i suppose there is an argument for like oh like if you if you've got a phone you've got the internet and the internet has unlimited pornographic

material available for your viewing pleasure you can look at it all the time you can look at it at work you can look at it on the bus you can look at it anytime all the time so if you're giving a child a phone you are inadvertently giving them access to all of those things and there is an argument to say like oh if you're watching all of this porn all the time you'll get desensitized to sort of quote-unquote normal porn and then you'll need to find more and more like outlandish things to get the same result however he's 13 like how much can he possibly have watched like I just don't know if the desensitization argument applies here I really this just boggles

my mind because yes absolutely I've watched interviews there was that documentary that I absolutely told you guys not to go and watch ages and ages and ages ago I can't even remember in which episode but it's that one that's on YouTube called like um a sexual versus non-sexual uh I've forgotten what it's called anyway yes absolutely like I've seen so many interviews with sort of as child sexual offenders in particular who talk about the idea that they sort of never really were paedophiles. And also if you've listened to Hunting Warhead, they talk about this really eloquently in there, I think.

But this idea that they sort of view so much pornography and then they just get deeper and deeper and deeper into it and then they have to look for the next thing that's even more depraved or even more extreme to get the same effect and I think that some people can be led down that path into the horrible horrible world of child pornography but also in Hunting Warhead I thought it was really interesting that they say if someone is a pedophile they generally realize this during their adolescence so maybe this guy Boy a was realizing that he was a pedophile but i don't know because he attacks anna like he doesn't go after a small child so complicated i don't really get it but you're totally right at the age of 13 how much pornography has he already watched that

he's delving into these depths is this the kid that we're expected to believe sat around watching hours and hours and hours of pornography just wanking off but also spinning his shore wheel according to him like what is going on this is so scary i honestly we don't even know this boy's name but i'm terrified of him like fuck things were looking pretty terrible for boy a and boy b wasn't living in a rainbow dream world either but there was no forensic evidence at the scene to link Boy B to Anna's death. But, as Connor Gallagher says, the evidence against him largely came out of his own mouth. Boy B's bedroom gave up a lot less than Boy A's did, but the authorities did find a notebook that contained a satanic pledge with a list of names,

including Boy A's, and it came with a list of rules. And the rules were, only pledge hosts can give activities, don't talk about it, act normal like nothing happened, no talking about Jesus or God, only Satan. Boy B claimed that this was not serious and the group was actually a homework club. Yeah, right. Honestly, like, there are no words. But really, again, boy B just should have kept his mouth shut

because, okay, they find this weird book. They don't really find anything else. And all it really proves is that he's lying that boy A is only his acquaintance because he's in this weird little club with him. But it doesn't really prove anything. I mean, come on, a satanic club. They're 13. Of course they have a satanic club.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And they'll probably have to go to mass every day at school you know like it's it's just the it's the opposite of what they should be doing and that's why they're doing it exactly i mean hell i join a satanic club now like it's not a big deal all it proves like i said is that he's lying about the closeness to boy a that's exactly like you don't you're not in a satanic club with your acquaintance. Exactly. He's just my satanic acquaintance. Oh God. So boy B knew all about the zombie mask taken from boy A's home because he confirmed that boy A had been wearing it as he attacked Anna.

So once again, this idea that he ran off and thought she was fine with boy A is absolute bullshit. And so boy A was charged with the murder of Anna Creagel on the 24th of May. Boy B was initially released after questioning, but re-arrested and charged with Anna's murder on the 12th of July. Their parents were telephoned by the guardie 24 hours before and the boys were collected from their homes by plainclothes officers in unmarked cars. Both boys were released on bail in August while they awaited trial. The case against boy A definitely seems pretty straightforward to me. He said he was going to do it and then he did it and there's a wealth of evidence to suggest that he did do it. But boy B is slightly more complicated. Like we And there's a wealth of evidence to suggest that he did do it.

But boy B is slightly more complicated. Like we said, there's no real physical evidence connecting him to the murder of Anna at all. Only his own admissions. Is that enough for a murder conviction? I don't know. Especially of a child. Yeah, and the thing is, he leaves loads of stuff out. He changes his story, blah, blah, blah.

He pretended not to know about the zombie mask, but he obviously did. And he didn't mention it in his initial interviews. And then they find it and then they ask him about it again. He was like, oh, I didn't think it was important. Obviously, yes, you did. You just thought you would leave it out because it makes you look bad. But I just don't know if he knew that that was the plan. Or maybe is he even the puppet master?

Is he the one that's like picking up and he's like, oh, and do this and wear that and all of that. But I suppose there's no forensics against him. So maybe that argument doesn't really work. Even if that was the case, like it's not what you suspect. It's what you can prove. And they really couldn't prove anything with Boy B linking him to this. And I just think if he had been given proper

counsel from the beginning he'd have had a lawyer there the entire time and not just his parents I'm sure his lawyer would have fucking punched him in the face to stop him talking about the stuff he was saying though speaking of that have you watched the Dublin murders on BBC um it's like a crime drama that they put out no I've not eight episodes it's pretty good i watched it over christmas in that can you just if you get a spare weekend watch it and tell me how fucking terrible all of the like uh lawyers are in that they're like sat next to their clients in the police interrogation rooms and the police ask them a question the like person looks at their lawyer and their lawyer's like you better answer him i'm like what are you doing tell him not to answer stop this line and their lawyer's like, you better answer him. I'm like, what are you doing? Tell him not to answer. Stop this line of questioning. There's like one episode where the

guardie attacks him during the interview and the lawyer's just like, oh shit, what's going on? Very weird. But had boy B had a proper lawyer, I think he wouldn't have put his foot in it quite so often. I think really what it comes down to is the conversation in which he claims that boy A had told him a month before the murders had happened that he wanted to kill Anna. If that conversation did actually happen and boy B did deliver Anna to boy A believing truly that boy A was going to kill her, then he is guilty according to the law. But still, is it enough to be charged with murder? Not even accessory to like anything like straight murder. Like, hmm. In the Republic of Ireland, the age of criminal responsibility is 12,

unless rape or murder is involved. Then it drops to 10. In UK, it's 10 across the board. In the US, it's 12. Children under 12 are considered incapable of breaking the law. Boy A and Boy B were the youngest in the history of the Republic of Ireland to be charged with murder. In an astonishingly quick turnaround, the trial for the murder of Anna Criagel began on the 30th of April 2019, and it lasted seven weeks. There were all sorts of court romantics. The boys were smuggled into side entrances to avoid the press. Boy B had a panic

attack one afternoon and was attended to by paramedics. And for this reason, court adjourned at 2.15 every day, which is probably why the trial took seven weeks, to be honest. Both boys pleaded not guilty. Boy B's father told the court that his son was vulnerable, naive and desperate for friendship. Whether he knew that this was identical to the description of Anna that we'd all been given, I'm not sure. It just seems too close to be a coincidence. Defence counsel Damien Colgan argued that there is no way that Boy B could have known of Boy A's intentions. And if he had, he wouldn't have been stupid enough to walk through a park full of security cameras. I don't think that's a viable argument.

I don't, me either. But he doesn't have loads to work with, does he? A number of child witnesses were also involved in the trial. They gave their evidence via video link. And one kid claimed that Boy B had told them before their arrest that he had witnessed Boy A getting into a small scrap with Anna. Boy B was diagnosed by a psychiatrist to have PTSD, which his defence argued led him to tell the Gardaí a

bunch of half-truths. Had he kept his mouth shut, it's possible that he would never have been charged. The prosecution had an easier job with Boy A. Essentially, his defense team tactic was to try everything they could to make the evidence against him inadmissible in court. They argued that the DNA evidence from his boots were collected via subterfuge because they had been taken in as evidence of Boy A's fictional assault rather than in the Anna Creajal case. Bullshit. Like what? So if you have DNA on file from another crime, you can't use it to implicate someone in another crime? Isn't that the whole point of having databases? Like what does that argument even mean they also tried arguing

that the guardee had used the wrong form while submitting the cctv footage proving that he had lied to them but the judge ignored both of these accusations and let the evidence stand bloody rightly so but they're just clutching at straws like because they know that the evidence against him is so overwhelming literally their only thing they can do is try and get it inadmissible. The only thing they can do is try and get this thrown out on a technicality. So the porn on Boy A's phone was not submitted as evidence at trial. Boy A's defense argued that just because his sperm and DNA were found all over Anna and her clothes, that didn't mean that the sexual interaction was against Anna's will. Right.

I mean, she's fucking dead. Like, it's not a rape case where they're trying to be like, can't prove that there wasn't consent. She's been murdered and there's duct tape around her neck. What's going on? I guess they've got nothing. They've got nothing. All they're trying to do is get rid of the sexual assault charge so he doesn't have to go on the sex offenders register. That's what they're trying to do. God. But the prosecution led by Brendan Graham assured the jury that absolutely no consensual activity went on on that dirty dark floor in that abandoned manor and that both boys denying their involvement in Anna's death was akin to the child who ate all the biscuits and has chocolate

all around their mouth, but they still say that they didn't do it. I think that's the best example. That's the best way of putting it. That's exactly what they're doing. And it's what kids do all the time. Yeah. I mean, they don't do this. They do that. But that's, this is a, this is quite an extreme. Yeah, no, but kids lie. For neither boy A nor boy B gave evidence during the trial. They both sat in the courtroom resting their heads on their parents' shoulders. After all the evidence had been heard, the jury deliberated for almost 14 and a half hours over the course of five days before reaching a unanimous verdict. They had been reminded that a manslaughter conviction was still open to them and that witnessing a crime is not the same as committing it.

But despite this, the jury found both Boy A and Boy B guilty of the murder of Anna Criagel on the 18th of June 2019. Geraldine and Patryk remained calm throughout the reading of the verdict. They nodded at the jurors as they walked out, and some even nodded back and smiled. After the verdict was read, the father of boy B screamed, you bunch of scumbags, you bunch of pricks. He had to be removed from the courtroom and when he returned, he sarcastically slow clapped as the two boys were led away.

Mate, fucking shut the fuck up. Sit down. I kind of understand it though. I mean, I get it, but I'm also like you uh what were you doing why didn't you get him a lawyer immediately why did you let him sit there and fucking talk and talk and talk and talk i do question boy b being found guilty of murder i do but i'm also like i don't know it's just such a brutal crime i don't think the jury could bring themselves to not give him that i'm not saying it's right but it's for the judge to clearly explain that. And he clearly did by telling them

that man's daughter was still on the table. I guess it's their decision. I don't know. I'm just like... I think with cases like this, like I can understand it from Boy B's father's point of view because there isn't actually any evidence against his son. It's only what he said, right?

I can understand why you would think that is unfair. However, in cases like this, when it's so young, so brutal, people get swept up in it. Is it possible that the jury felt like, emotionally speaking, they thought Boy B deserved to be punished? I don't know. I wasn't there, but it wouldn't surprise me. No. I think that the fact that they were reminded that manslaughter was still on the table, that it's not a crime to witness the crime, or it's not the same thing to witness a crime and not step in as to commit one.

I just think they couldn't separate the two because of the fact that he told them himself that Boy A had told him a month before that he wanted to kill Anna. And then the fact that he is the one who came and got her from her house. He is the one that led her to kill Anna. And then the fact that he is the one and came and got her from her house. He is the one that led her into that situation. He's the one that led her to her death.

And I think that there's no way the jury could look past that. Not saying it's right. I'm thinking that's obviously what they were going through during those deliberations. Sentence he rolled around soon after the trial and Judge Justice Paul McDermott

recognised it was a point of distinction that Boy B did not personally, physically assault the deceased, but, quote, Boy B had been convicted on his willingness to procure the deceased and the jury was satisfied in what he was doing. He was a key factor to the successful completion of the crime. Boy B, you actively participated in her killing. You'll both have to carry the guilt and shame of your involvement and the devastation you wrought upon her family for the rest of your lives. Her family must bear their grief for the rest of their lives. And when released, you can reconstruct yours in a positive way. I hope you both take it and build towards that in your time in custody. A second chance you both so wrongfully denied, Anna Criagio. Both boys have been awarded lifetime anonymity

on account of their age. Boy A was sentenced to life incarcerated with a review period after 12 years. He was also convicted of aggravated sexual assault and placed on the sex offenders register. Boy B was sentenced to eight years inside. Both boys will remain in Oberston Detention Centre until they're 18, at which point they will be transferred to an adult prison. Boy A is said to have accepted his fate after the trial, but boy B continues to appeal. Not only are these boys the youngest convicted murderers in ERA's history, they have also been given the longest sentences ever handed to children. The legal system wasn't ready for

children so young to commit such a crime. After the legal proceedings had finished, Patrik and Geraldine Creasal told the press, Thank you for all the wonderful people out there that have supported us and kept us going. Justice has been served for Anna. The judge has decided on the sentence, and the duty lies with him alone. For our part, we can only say that forever is not long enough. Please remember Anna and keep her in your heart somewhere. This crime shook Ireland. It was beyond public comprehension that two boys from well-respected families

who did well at school and were overall well-behaved could have committed such a crime at just 13 years old. According to Chris McCrusker, a lecturer in clinical psychology at the University College Cork, this inability to connect the dots leads to a lynch mob mentality fuelled by assumptions of evil in our midst. Killers are easier to understand when they've had horrible things happen to them. Killers that come from nice families are somehow much scarier. And some people use cases like this as evidence that

some people are just born bad and no amount of warm parenting or affluence can stop them from becoming murderers. What makes people really uncomfortable with this case in particular is just how senseless it was. There was no motive established at all. Or is the internet really to blame? The boys real names have been leaked online. I don't know what they are. I haven't looked. I don't think you should either. Boy B's family have reportedly gone into hiding as a result of the vitriol this public discovery has unleashed.

Both Facebook and Twitter were summoned to court to face accusations that they were in contempt of court for publishing photographs of Boy A and B, revealing their true identities. The social media platforms argued that they didn't know the names of the boys so they couldn't construct any sort of blocking mechanism for post-revealing information that they didn't know about which does seem like a fair argument to me and I don't really want to get into a situation where sensitive information

is shared with Facebook before it's shared with anyone else. I'm also just like how how is it even possible in this day and age to keep people's identities a secret? They went to court, the families went to court, people in that town know who it is. Like, how could it possibly be kept a secret? I just have no clue. I have no concept of how this could even be a thing. The only thing the police can say is the press aren't allowed to name them. How is this even likely to stay a secret? But in an extension of the blame the internet argument, many are of course blaming porn for the brutal murder carried out by boy A. As a result of this case, T-Shock, Leo Wadker,

plans to study the UK's plan to restrict access to pornography online. A study commissioned by the NSPCC in 2016 found that 56% of 11 to 16 year old boys said that they had viewed pornography online. Almost all, 94% of the children who said that they had done so, of children said that they had done so by the age of 14. The same study found that a much higher percentage of boys than girls had deliberately gone looking for it. The Journal of Aggressive Behaviour conducted a study which also shows that the frequent use of pornography is linked to sexual aggression. Essentially, those who are sexually aggressive are much more likely to watch porn. So it's like hard to say, is it the watching porn that makes them more sexually aggressive

or is it because they're more sexually aggressive that they're watching this porn? Yeah, it's the chicken and the egg thing, really. So can Anna's murder really be explained away that easily? Boy A tells Boy B to deliver Anna to him so that he can kill her like he saw on Pornhub? It does seem simplistic. And the more we think about this case, the more confused, honestly, we got.

I really feel like we only have half the story here. I think it's too hard with the story that we have, with what's been published, for us to really make any assumptions about what caused this. Like their identities are a secret. We can't do what we normally do, which is delve into their background, take a look at points at which this could have led them down the particular route that they took. I would be, this is just me, my personal opinion, I would be cautious about me saying that I think pornography plays no role in this kind of thing but it's far too simple in my opinion to just say

it's all because of that. And the volume at which Boy A was consuming violent pornography is not the norm. He was way over the top. But the fact is, younger and younger kids are finding it. We all have the internet in our hands at all times, and the internet is always going to have porn on it, and kids are always going to find it. You could be a child block, firewall, tall, subverting, technical wizard genius, and your kid would still find a way to look at porn if they wanted to. So is there anything that we can actually do to regulate it at all? Journalist Jennifer O'Connell made a really good point in her article on this, which is linked below. It's in the Irish Times. She says that we like the idea that video games or drugs or porn or the internet make people evil

because that gives us a targeted thing that we can fix rather than having to accept that children are multifaceted things that can be influenced from all angles. There is no one thing to fix, but that isn't to say that pornographic access couldn't be handled better. It could. And if the answer isn't in restricted access, surely it lies in education. And normalising conversations about sex would be a pretty good start. Anna Creasal does not deserve to be remembered only by the way she died. Her death has left an emptiness inside all who knew her. Geraldine said, quote, Life without Anna is no longer a life.

It is a misery that we must endure for the rest of our lives. That just feels like the most authentic, real thing that I've heard in a very long time about the loss of somebody you love in such a tragic way. Anna was buried with a Russian flag and nesting doll, along with a model of the Eiffel Tower. Her parents added that they always thought she was too good to be true. In October 2019, a fundraising drive raised enough money in Anna's memory for the Russian-Irish Adoption Group to launch their new network, ANA, which stands for Anna's Network for Adolescents.

Her parents have also unveiled a friendship bench at a hotel near their home, where they used to go for lunch as a family. I don't even know what to say. I got a bit, my voice started to break a bit when we were reading that final bit. It's all just so fucking tragic and scary. But yeah, that's the story of Anna Creasal and boy A and boy B, whoever the fuck they are. I still don't know what I think about boy B. I'm literally trying to come to a conclusion in my head about whether I think he deserved murder or not, and I just don't know.

I mean, I think had he not been friends with, in the Satanic Club, acquaintances with boy A, I don't think he probably would have done anything bad. But he did. And I think it's just whether you decide whether at the age of 13 somebody can really know the ramifications of the actions they take. And I think that's the problem is that most studies these days show us the brain doesn't stop developing until about 26. Also know that teenagers and children have difficulty linking the dots and

associating their actions with the consequences of their actions i'm not saying that that means that he's not guilty he knows the difference between right and wrong could he have known what was going to happen did he really believe that boy a was going to kill anna i don't know i just even if he did does he understand the finality of what that means there are lots of questions it's very ethical i haven't watched it yet but a lot of people on facebook talking about I just, even if he did, does he understand the finality of what that means? There are lots of questions. It's very ethical. I haven't watched it yet, but a lot of people on Facebook talking about Responsible Child, that drama series that the BBC made.

I think it's on BBC Two. I haven't watched it yet because it looks depressing as fuck. But I think it's about like a 12 year old that kills his stepdad because he's like beating his mum and then he goes on trial for murder. I just don't know. Oh, I see. I got heard about that. No, it's on there. I just then he goes on trial for murder. I just don't know. Oh, I see. I got heard about that too. Yeah, no, it's on there. I just, yeah, it's too sad.

I don't know. I think it's too complicated for us to answer now. And I don't think, I think it's too complicated for anyone to answer ever, really. Yeah, I'm sure you'll all let us know what you think though. And you can do so on all the social medias at Red Handed The Pod. We are, of course, course on instagram twitter and on facebook

and if you would like to help support the show you can also do that on patreon.com slash red handed there's loads of exciting new content that we've got planned for 2020 like seriously it's gonna be fucking wild and we're gonna be kicking that off with our first ten dollar plus bonus patreon episode that is coming out next Monday. It's on a lady named Sheila Keane, who I don't want to spoil her at all, but think clown dressing up, think mistress murder. It's very weird. So yeah, tune in for that if you can. And here are some wonderful people who have been supporting the show on Patreon. So here we go. Thank you very much. Kristen Singer. Stefan Stefansson.

Is that your real name, Stefan? Stephen? Is that Stephen? Or Stefan? I don't know. I would have said that was Stephen. So it could be Stephen Stefansson. Could be Stephen Stefansson.

Could be Stefan Stefansson. Could be Stefan Stefansson. I don't know. Something. And thank you Donna Seely. Baptist B. Cara McAnally. Can can i i don't know daniella batcher andrea duffy sailor sadist that's amazing rowan lowell brian e woodgate paula stanbridge

sam perez anna harris michael punter kayla smith jacqueline kloss uh charlotte fowler gretchen And then Hannah can go. Laurie Westrope Emma Lau Melissa Wasatch and then Hannah can go Sophie Sprower Erica Karunganen Sarah Jessica Rourke Grace Hart Emma Louise Mason

Dia Rice Rachel Ambroso Beth Bees Catherine Hunter Spencer Montoya Kirstie Laucono Cassia

Nikki Inastasin Laura Kate Alexis Carson Hannah Galiere Karina Kovar Red Wolf Sorry, guys. It's not my day. Miriam Tonnes. Polish. Polish. Yeah, that's about as far as I can go. Catherine Deacon, Sian, Keddie, Madeline Robin, Jade, Trevor Richard, Montez, Elise Crone, Jen Jacobs, Amy Combs, Rebecca Solomon, Erin Carr, Anne, Ashley Elizabeth, Bleggie,

Hannah State, Nicole Farrand, Ashley Lissonson, and Steph Heathers. Thank you so much for your time and money, I suppose. Thank you, guys. Thank you for supporting the show. thank you so much for your time and money, I suppose. Thank you, guys. Thank you for supporting the show. Thank you very much, and we'll see you next week. Goodbye. See you next week. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made.

A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Laney Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing.

From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. And there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On the Media. To listen, subscribe to On the Media wherever you get your podcasts.