RedHanded - Episode 132 - Michelle Carter & Conrad Roy: “Love You Forever”

Episode Date: January 30, 2020

When 18 year old Conrad Roy was found dead in his truck it looked like an obvious suicide. But as detectives started their investigation it soon became clear that this was anything but obvious. Conrad and his 17 year old online girlfriend, Michelle Carter, had exchanged a series of troubling messages in the lead up to his death. Ones in which Michelle seemingly encouraged Conrad to kill himself. Today RedHanded asks the question - did Michelle Carter cause Roy Conrad’s suicide, or was it a tragic perfect storm based on teenager’s romantic fantasy? References: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/09/us/michelle-carter-i-love-you-now-die.html https://www.elle.com/culture/movies-tv/a27704746/who-is-michelle-carter/ https://thetab.com/uk/2019/10/07/michelle-carter-case-true-story-now-127963 https://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/a12091057/michelle-carter-untold-story/ https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a57125/michelle-carter-trial/ https://www.insider.com/supreme-court-denies-michelle-carter-appeal-2020-1 https://apnews.com/f5d6d8cc5039c6b701e67950e37b6271 https://www.boston25news.com/news/all-the-text-messages-between-michelle-carter-and-conrad-roy-they-day-he-died/532942907/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/01/13/michelle-carter-who-urged-boyfriends-suicide-loses-supreme-court-appeal/ https://www.nbcboston.com/news/local/michelle-carter-awaiting-early-release-from-mass-jail/2066122/ https://abcnews.go.com/US/michelle-carter-convicted-texting-suicide-case-released-good/story?id=68450833 https://edition.cnn.com/2020/01/23/us/michelle-carter-text-suicide-release/index.html   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hannah. I'm Saruti. And welcome to this week's Red Handed, which we are, I would say, equal measures nervous and excited for. Yeah, we are. Lots of people, when we announced that we were going to be covering this case last week, were like, oh my God, two Boston cases in a row or two Massachusetts cases in a row.

Believe me, I wouldn't put myself through having to say that state name twice for no reason. We absolutely did not plan to cover this case. We are covering this case because of what happened last week. That's the only reason we're doing this. It was never planned. But here we are. We're all in it together now. Michelle Carter, the name you've all been waiting for, is famous. And if you don't know who she is, you're about to. Here is a quick rundown of her situation. Michelle is now 23 years old. And when she was just 17, she sent a series of texts to her online-only boyfriend, who was a year older than her, encouraging him to end his life. Every rag, Facebook post and Nancy Grace-fronted TV show will tell you that Michelle's boyfriend,

Conrad Roy III, was in the process of killing himself in a black pickup truck when he changed his mind. Conrad got out of the car and then he was ordered via text message by Michelle to get back in his truck and finish what he had started. It's a good story. It's the manipulative, blonde, skinny teenage girl who forces the defenseless teenage boy to end his life. Except there's no evidence that it actually went down like that. The texts from Michelle telling Conrad to get back in the car do not exist. She never sent them. And that's not to say that Michelle had not encouraged Conrad towards suicide in the weeks before.

They had said all sorts of things to each other. This is the thing that we're really going to be wrestling with this week, is when does irresponsible become criminal? Exactly. And I would just urge everybody listening to this. It is an incredibly famous case. You all have heard of it, I'm sure. But just leave some of your preconceptions behind because there were so many things that Hannah and I thought about this case that just turned out to be absolutely not true. Yeah. And come with us on this journey with an open mind, I would say. I have been really, you know, open mind I would say I have been really

you know I'm gonna say I've been appalled by the omission of truth in journalism on this case me too and obviously they're trying to sell papers or like online subscriptions whatever but like just the way they are wording things to lead you to believe a certain thing that just isn't true without actually telling a lie but they obviously they know what they're doing like of course they do and yeah I'm not going. But obviously they know what they're doing. Of course they do. And yeah, I'm not going to be like, well, you know, they're just selling papers. We're trying to get fucking listens

and we could get a whole lot more listens if we were just like, this fucking crazy bitch, look at what she did. But let's just all calm ourselves down and look at this case. And I think it's exactly what Hannah said. The question that sits at the heart of this entire case is, you can be an asshole, but does it make you a criminal? And I think that's the question. Also, I would say, we will say it again at the heart of this entire case is you can be an arsehole but does it make you a criminal and I think that's the question also I would say we will say it again at the end

but please please refrain from doing exactly what everybody accuses Michelle of doing in this story and being absolute dickheads to people you've never met on the internet so everybody chill and just listen to the story first all right let, let's get into it. If you're all prepared. If you're not prepared, I don't really know what else to do to help you. Sorry. Go do some colouring in on your phone. It's my new favourite thing to chill out with. I basically sit around and watch Shark Attack documentaries and do colouring in on my phone.

It's my new favourite thing. You have a problem. I can't talk, you know. I've literally just been, I've started re-watching House. I'm already on season six. Mate, do what you you gotta do I watched all of fucking season two of you what is wrong there's an absolute car crash of a show I was just sitting there yesterday I was like am I even enjoying watching this I don't think so I don't know anymore I don't know anymore I started watching the witcher I was like this is fucking. Everybody keeps telling me it's great anyway.

Yeah, but it's like a video game thing. So I think if you know the video game, it's like, but like I do not. So I have not watched it. No, people were like, it's better than Game of Thrones. And I was like, we'll see. I don't think so. Don't think so. Anyway, before I cause any more controversy, let's move on. So Michelle and Conrad had met each other on separate family holidays to Florida in February of 2012. And they were visiting their various elderly relatives because that is, from what I understand, the only reason anybody ever goes to Florida. And it was all very innocent. They met each other, they rode their bikes around,

and they went down to the beach together. Conrad asked Michelle if she had a boyfriend, and they watched alligators just sort of floridering around. But nothing happened. No, it's like the TV appropriate teenage romance. Oh, yeah. This is pre-Watershed for sure. Exactly. It's like 5pm TV romance.

So both kids were from, and I hate you for putting this in my bit, they were from Massachusetts or whatever. I can't. I really struggle with that word. and I hate you for putting this in my bit, they were from Massachusetts. Sorry. Or whatever. I can't. I really struggle with that word. And Conrad Roy's family lived in a place called Mataposet. Mataposet. Poiset.

Yeah. Poiset. Mataposet. Anyway, you guys are going to yell at me anyway. I'm trying. I'm trying. And it's a coastal town in Massachusetts. And his dad and granddad before him were both tugboat captains. And they were also both called Conrad, just to make things extra confusing. Interestingly, when the US Airways flight 1549 made the miracle landing on the Hudson in 2009, it was actually Conrad Roy Jr., our Conrad's father, who was part of the team of tugboats to pull the aircraft to shore.

Isn't that cool? Quite an interesting, fun fact. Yeah, I like that. And Lynn, who's Conrad's mum, was a nurse. Her and Conrad Jr. had unfortunately gone through a pretty messy and violent divorce. Lynn had been arrested for assaulting her former husband, Conrad Jr., but he was no angel either. But we're going to have to wait till a little bit later on to find out more about that. We're not saying that domestic violence is all right if the other person is a bit of a shit. It's not all right ever. We're saying that

they both have their issues. Yes, exactly that. And Conrad Roy was watching all of it. Exactly. There's a lot of violence in this family. That's it. Michelle was not from Matterpoisette. She was from a town called Plainville, which was further north, away from the coast. And I've seen this town described as waspy, which is not a term that we use in the UK at all.

But apparently it stands for white Anglo-Saxon Protestant, and it's used to describe settlers in the now United States who have hailed from Northern Europe. I have never heard that term uttered by a British person. I have said it. I have used it to describe a person I know.

No, you haven't. Do I know who it is? Who is it? I'll beep it. I heard that word on Will and Grace years and years and years ago. And then I couldn't remember what it actually stood for, but I remembered the description they gave of what it meant. And I was like, that's her.

That's what she is. And I stand by it. It's not a common, like when I said it to other British people, they were like, what do you want about? It's not used here. No. I'll be safe. But when I lived in Costa Rica,

I met a girl from Connecticut who wore it like a badge of fucking honor. Oh, I think very much so. I think it is very much a badge of honor for lots of people. I don't know what sets me off about it. I think it's the combination of race and religion in a title of a person I think that's what bothers me. But I think it's super conservative super white super Christian blonde women who are rich that's what I think when I think waspy. Me too. Yeah. Any wasps listening um I don't know explain yourself whatever I don't know. Please don't. We demand it. So Michelle and

Conrad if you couldn't tell already, were from incredibly different cultures, different classes even. And there's no way that they would have come into contact with each other in their day-to-day lives. Their schools didn't even compete against each other in sports games, even though they're just about an hour away. So I don't think it's unfair to say that people in Michelle's immediate circle would have seen Conrad as a bit of rough. Michelle and her family lived a classic middle-class suburban life.

Her dad was a sales manager at a forklift supplier and her mum, Gail, dressed up houses that estate agents were trying to sell, which I thought sounded like quite a nice job. It does sound like quite a nice job. I don't know how interesting it is, but it does sound like quite a nice job to have. Yeah, just go in, make some shit look nice, leave. Exactly, put some doilies, leave. Exactly. Put some like

doilies out. Fake fruit. Finger sandwiches. Plastic lobster. The epitome of nice. So after their brief, very non-physical holiday romance was over, Conrad and Michelle stayed in touch a lot. The pair exchanged thousands upon thousands of text messages. Printed out, they took up like 317 pages of A4. That's a lot of messages. I think, honestly, the only person I can think of who I text that much is you. I was going to say, I was going to say, like, my phone is constantly like, send message to Hannah. I'm like, not right now, phone. Be quiet. I know when I need to message her. Oh, God. Not right now, phone. So Michelle started calling Conrad her boyfriend to some people, but to others, she would just describe him as my friend Conrad. Conrad, however, seems to have been

less invested. Their text relationship was strange strange to say the least but then also maybe you know they were like 17 18 like maybe that's just my 30 year old person's eyes looking at it and thinking that it seems strange if a 30 year old plus man was texting me like that we wouldn't be texting no they were 17 I'm trying to think of a single text message I sent to a boy when I was 17 and I don't think I knew any so I don't think I can like no I I definitely wasn't sending 317 pages of text to any boys when I was 17. No you're just slipping random notes through their door. Yeah totally normal and functional there. I hope we'll come back to that another time. You've told it on the show before. I told it on the show before. Oh good. So we'll just compound my outing of that situation. But I think the important thing to know

about Michelle and Conrad at this point, whether we think their texting was strange or whatever, both of them were incredibly lonely. And I think they found like an odd companionship in each other. But despite only living an hour away from each other, the duo only met in person about five times over the course of their relationship, if that is even what it was. I think that's a very interesting point. When I sort of saw I knew this case but didn't really know it at all, I assumed that they were like high school, girlfriend, boyfriend, together all the time, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's just not that at all.

Over two years, they meet five times. That's like nothing. And also some early news reports just call him her friend. The boyfriend thing really doesn't come into the narrative until a little bit later on. No, you're right. And actually, when we did the sponsorship read for Sky Crime, when they got the Michelle Carter documentary, we said in it, her friend Conrad Roy.

And they were like, should we say friend or boyfriend? And I was like, I don't know. You tell me. And they went with boyfriend. It is very confusing. Like, I don't know. And not to say that you obviously can't form these sort of deeply entrenched feelings for people over the Internet. Like, that can definitely happen and I think the fact that they only met five times was probably more down to their

insecurities and their sort of awkwardness as teenagers who were going through difficult things yeah because like they could both drive they they had the capacity to go and see each other and they didn't exactly and you would think normally 17 18 year olds that are quote unquote in love or feeling that way, like they'd want nothing more than to be with each other all the time. Yeah. And when you read these texts, at times they were very loving. But it does seem that that lovingness came much more from Michelle than from Conrad.

She sends him quite long messages talking about her feelings. And Conrad would almost always reply with nothing more than an ah sometimes he would add in a smiley face when Michelle asked Conrad if she was his girlfriend he said I guess yeah he's just like consistently non-committal and like he lets her say like she she really pours her heart out at some point like Like she is copying stuff she's seen on TV. But like she thinks she's being incredibly sincere. And he's just like, uh-huh. There's not really much of a two-way. I don't think he had the capacity or the interest in her sort of talking about her feelings to him.

Maybe that's in some ways kind of a typical thing for teenagers. I don't know. But yeah, it's heartbreaking in some places to read because I think we've all been that girl who's like let me tell you and then they're just like yeah cool whatever yeah I had a lot of quite traumatic flashbacks of being like but he didn't say no and then you convince yourself that it's fine. He's still there. He's still there. He's still talking to me. Conrad was actually, on top of being noncommittal, quite horrible to Michelle sometimes. Reasonably frequently, he would text her,

fuck you, when she didn't magically know what was going on in his life. Maybe that isn't so out of the ordinary for a teenage boy with a lot going on. And Conrad definitely had a lot going on. In October 2012, so that's six months after he'd met Michelle in Florida, Conrad took a massive overdose of Tylenol and ended up in hospital. This suicide attempt was so serious that, according to his mum Lynn, Conrad narrowly avoided a liver transplant. After this incident, Conrad texts Michelle Carter and asked her out of the blue,

do you even care what's happening to me? After learning that Conrad had been hospitalised, Michelle Carter, and asked her out of the blue, do you even care what's happening to me? After learning that Conrad had been hospitalised, Michelle wrote, oh my god, is this my fault? All in all, Conrad Roy III would make five attempts on his own life. He told Michelle about all of them in great detail, about how miserable he was and about how nobody, not even his family, cared about him. He recorded videos of himself documenting his misery. In some, he's hopeful for change, and in others, he describes himself as an abortion. Conrad's parents' divorce was not the only violence.

In February 2013, Conrad's father assaulted him. He punched him in the face and landed him in hospital, and Conrad Jr. was arrested for this incident. You can look up pictures of what Comrade Roy looked like after that and he's really not in a good way at all. I don't think you can sustain that kind of injury from one punch, which is what his dad says it is. Comrade Roy Junior, our Comrade's dad, is arrested

and then Comrade has to do a statement of what he says happened. And what he says is that my dad punched me and I was on the floor and he wouldn't let me get back up. And the worst thing is, I found this chilling. When they ask Conrad Jr. about this incident in the HBO documentary on this case, which I would recommend you watch.

So they're interviewing Conrad Jr. and he describes the time he beat his son so severely he went to hospital as embarrassing. But he says he knows that he was being a parent that his dad has said to him if you ever take a swing at me I will make sure you never do it again so what he's saying is that his son started it and he finished it and the fact he ended up in hospital is kind of near the heel of there because he was being a parent I mean of all of the diabolical things we hear in this, the two people that are sort of caught up in this case are teenagers. But this man is a man.

He's a grown up adult man with a son, with an 18 year old son that he beat so severely went to hospital. I know this family have suffered an immense tragedy by losing their son. And that is not something that I'm here to take away from them or belittle them for. But beating your son and then saying it was embarrassing and saying that you were doing it because you were being a parent. And you're exactly right. He's saying he started it. Sorry, if you have a son and you're the father,

your son could be screaming, could be punching you. You cannot hit that child back. Are you fucking serious? This is, yeah, this is unbelievable. Obviously, these situations are always multilayered. I'm actually annoyed at myself that I even considered that it could only be Michelle Carter's fault. There is never just one factor in situations like this.

And I think what all of the major players want is Conrad's family want a narrative where it isn't their fault for not noticing or for hitting him or any of those things. Michelle Carter's family want a narrative where it's not her fault, but everybody else wants a narrative where it's Michelle Carter's fault. And then everyone else sort of gets away with not getting Conrad the help he needed in time. And, you know, even when we say words like fault, we're not here to sort of, we're not trying to apportion blame. That's the opposite of what we're trying to do. We're not trying to say it wasn't Michelle's fault. It was her, it's Conrad Roy's parents' fault because like, fuck knows, having somebody at home or having a child that has depression

and not knowing how to deal with that. It is absolutely not Conrad Roy's parents' fault that they didn't know what to do because like, I can speak personally of that experience that it is incredibly difficult for a family to know what to do in those circumstances. They're trying to make Michelle a scapegoat. They're trying to make Michelle a scapegoat. Everyone is trying to make Michelle a scapegoat. Whereas I think we need to look at Conrad Roy's whole of life situation and that she wasn't the only one that led him down the path he took. You know, we're never going to know 100% of the story,

but I think it's reasonable for us to assume that Conrad's home situation wasn't ideal. And although she seemed to have a bit more of a positive relationship with her parents, Michelle Carter was also not having a great time. She had a severe eating disorder and spent stints in hospital because of it. Michelle also cut herself. Both she and Conrad were on pretty hefty antidepressants for kids their age. If they shared one common feeling, it was one of heartbreaking isolation and loneliness. Michelle was put on Prozac when she was just 14 years old, and a well-known side effect of that medication is suicidal ideation. Michelle once made herself

a noose, hung it in her wardrobe, put it around her neck, and cried for 10 minutes. She told a girl at school that she was angry with herself for not having the guts to go through with it. Michelle was incredibly desperate for friends. Being a teenager is so difficult. Kids are cruel. But Michelle's desperation certainly didn't help her friend-finding mission. If her peers were ever nice to her, she would thank them relentlessly. And if they were not nice to her, she would flood them with apologies for whatever she had done i mean she's just so incredibly uh vulnerable and like oh god yeah just all of her nerves are on the outside of her body like so it's heartbreaking it's heartbreaking because although while i remember like being

teenager was shit like i remember people like this And I know some people who were still like this. And it's heartbreaking. And the general vibe from the girls that Michelle went to school with was that they just didn't really like hanging out with her. Very few of them included her in their plans. But she did have one friend who remained fairly consistent. Her name was Sam Boardman. And remember that name because she becomes quite important later on.

During one of her periods in hospital, Michelle texted Conrad that she thought he would benefit from a similar internment. She wrote, quote, Would be so good for you and we could get through our issues together. We could change our lives and be happy. Both of them claimed to have physically seen the devil. Michelle's devil crawled into her bed with her and told her that she was going to hell. Conrad's devil told him to kill everyone. Is it possible that they were both hallucinating the devil. Michelle's devil crawled into her bed with her and told her that she was going to hell. Comrade's devil told him to kill everyone. Is it possible that they were both hallucinating

the devil? Yes. Do I think that that's what happened? Absolutely not. I think it's part of this fantasy game that they play together. And we've seen this before. It's so hard to know when a fantasy becomes a plan. And they're so young. And all of the texts are out there. You can read them. I've read them. I've read all of of them and i just don't think they seem that serious there's smiley faces and babes and ha ha like being like thrown around all of the time it's fantasy based like comrade fantasized about killing himself and michelle fantasized about her and comrade getting into a real life grown-up relationship and we also have to remember that these two only met up a handful of times there are many attempts to meet up more but then one of them wouldn't text back or ignore it and change the subject

and these meetings wouldn't happen so in short the two of them are constantly making plans for things that neither one of them have any intention of following through with and of course we know that Conrad had made several suicide attempts but how could Michelle know that that is what actually happened she never visited him hospital she wasn't in touch with his parents so is it reasonable to assume that she didn't think any of it was actually real it's really really hard to know and when you read the text it's kind of like you know all those um sort of weird subreddits or weird sort of forums on the internet that are like inciting suicide, like people who are discussing suicide. There's the pro-Anna websites. There's things like that where people go to look for people to almost compound their feelings of isolation to talk about these things.

Instead of doing it in a general forum, it's like these two are trapped in one of just their own making where it was just the two of them. But I think what's really, really important to remember is it is like that because they don't know each other. They don't know each other in real life, like almost at all. And that's kind of what it feels like to me, that it is almost like an anonymous two-person forum incredibly intensely discussing this. I completely agree.

Because obviously, if someone has made, at this stage, he's made four attempts on his life already. If you know for a fact that someone has done that and then you're encouraging them to try it again, like obviously that is absolutely abhorrent. But I don't know if she did. How could she? Even if she did know that he had made four attempts on his life before and she is sort of getting into bed with this fantasy with him and discussing it and doing all the things that she goes on to do,

if she also is starting to see suicide as like, or does see suicide as a genuinely viable option for dealing with one's problems, because she isn't in a healthy place, mentally speaking, then she's also coming at it and giving advice that she shouldn't have been giving through a lens of someone who is deeply in a dark place also. So they weren't good for each other.

But who was there to police that? Neither of them could have been responsible for that. It's very, very difficult. Like, oh, yeah. I think the other thing to also point out with this is that Michelle Carter was obsessed with romance. And she was even more obsessed with Lea Michele. She would take direct quotes from Lea Michele's character in the show Glee and also from real life interviews

with the actress and text them to Conrad, tweet them and put them on her Facebook wall. And what happened to both Lea Michele and her character in Glee? Her boyfriend died in 2013. And on the 7th of July 2014, Michelle went to also go see The Fault in Our Stars. And what happens in that film? The boyfriend dies. Jesse Barron wrote what we think is probably the best article on this case that's out there, and he wrote it for Esquire. And he argues that Michelle had written a narrative for Conrad, which ended in him dying, because that is how all true love ends. Or so she thought. And I think he's so much more a character for her almost

than he is a real person. Yeah, because it's this, I mean, I know it's text messages, but it's an online relationship. She can add and take away things about him as much as she wants because she never really sees him in real life. And I think that's why they're both so hesitant to meet up because this way they can just keep them as characters that they can define on their own terms this way. And Michelle's not really alone in this fantasization extravaganza. Conrad also liked to play this game. He texts Michelle, we should be

like Romeo and Juliet. And this is the conversation that followed that followed Michelle I'd love to be your Juliet Conrad but you know what happens at the end and Michelle writes in all capitals oh yeah fuck no we are not dying that's not funny I thought you were trying to be romantic and Conrad says I know tricked you and this um particular exchange I think for me is incredibly telling. The fact that Michelle is desperate for Conrad to be romantic, to be loving, to be that person that she wants, to be her boyfriend. And when he says, I know I tricked you, because he knows what she wants to hear, but he also knows what he wants, which is to talk about suicide. If you take anything away from this, pay attention to that particular narrative. So Michelle was used to intense relationships. The summer of 2014, she had met a girl called Alice Feltzman. They had played on the same softball team and they immediately hit it off. And this was the friend that Michelle had been yearning for. And then suddenly, tragically for Michelle, Alice stopped responding to her. And Michelle took this very badly. And she started to speak to other people about this friendship as if it had been a romantic one. And she claimed that every song made her think of

Alice and that the two had even kissed. Alice to this day denies this. She says that there was never a physical element to their relationship and she stopped being friends with her because her mum didn't like the girl. Michelle told her ex-boyfriend Conrad about the Alice situation. A week after, he texted her asking if Michelle wanted to have sex. Michelle said that she did, but not until they were older. When Conrad told Michelle he was running away to California, she told him that she couldn't be that far away from him,

so she'd have to come too, to which Conrad replied, Why? Do you see what I mean? Yeah, it's... And obviously, we're not trying to, you know, he's dead. Like, we're not dragging him through the mud here, but I can kind of see from Michelle's point of view, like, she just desperately wants him him to like, like her.

And what we're also not saying is that because he doesn't give her what she wants, that she starts being horrible to him. We think that there is other motives for why she says what she says. And we're not trying to say he deserved this in any way. Oh my God. We talk a lot about male suicide and how incredibly fucking difficult it is a topic to deal with because and I don't think anybody has nailed it and that's not at all what we're saying it is just let's have a clear idea of what was going on in all of these text messages and the true situation

between the couple if we can even call them that. So Conrad is not playing into Michelle's runaway bride fantasy and Michelle decided to change her approach. We see a real change in Michelle's behaviour at the beginning of July 2014. She stops seeming upset by Conrad's suicidal thoughts and depression as she starts leaning into them in a big way. She says things like, I think your parents know you're in a really bad place. I'm not saying they want you to do it,

but I honestly feel like they can accept it. They know there's nothing they can do. They've tried helping. Everyone's tried. There isn't anything anyone can do to save you, not even yourself. You've said your mum saw a suicide thing on your computer and she didn't say anything. I think she knows what's on your mind. She's prepared for it. Everyone will be sad for a while, but then they'll get over it and move on. They won't be in depression. I won't let that happen. They know how sad you are.

They know that you're doing this to be happy. And I think they will understand and accept it. They will always carry you in their hearts. Conrad replies to this. He says, ah, thank you, Michelle. And then Michelle says, they will move on for you because they know that's what you would have wanted. They know that you wouldn't want them to be sad and depressed, to be angry and guilty. They know you want them to live their lives and be happy.

So they will for you. You're right. You need to stop thinking about this and just do it. Because overturning always kills overthinking. And Conrad says, yeah, it does. I've been thinking about it for too long. And then Michelle says, always smile. And yeah, you just have to do it. You have everything you need.

There is no way you can fail. Tonight is the night, now or never. Okay, before we move on, can we just unpack a couple of things in this? What I think is like really screams out at me as you read that. Firstly, Michelle is saying some pretty uncomfortable things to read i agree with you if a therapist has said this fucking throw them in jail fucking throw away the key they're done game over she is not a person who can be no she's not a person who knows the ramifications of what she's saying i don't think

i think she cannot be responsible in the sense of held criminally responsible for what she's saying do you know what i mean like she is in a fucked up dark place as well and is it just that she thinks these things her saying like your parents will be sad but they'll sort of move on these are kind of things of a girl who has also gone down the road of suicidal ideation has told herself and also look at the way he responds to her oh thank you michelle it's like is it that people will go down whatever route it takes them to get them any sort of positive reinforcement from this person that they feel so attached to possibly and i also think that if Michelle is as ill at this stage as I think she is it's possible that she did think she was doing the right thing but I'm not sure how far

I agree with that even as it came out of my mouth I feel weird because like I don't think she thinks it's real it's either that she doesn't think it's real at all and it's all just a fantasy and this is what gets him off and that's why she's role-playing she's going along with it because this is the only way in which she gets that loving side of him because this is what he really wants to talk about and maybe she does think it's just role play if she doesn't I don't really think that she knows the true extent of what she's saying and the ramifications that that's going to have because she's not in her right mind she's not even an adult I don't think she really understands what she's saying and like

I said she's looking at it through the lens of someone who is also incredibly isolated and lonely and depressed and has at times at least thought about suicidal things she's not the best person to be giving this advice but unfortunately she is the one that he wants to hear from because she's telling him what he wants to hear and is the only person in his life who I'm guessing is. Michelle even takes Conrad through the methodology of suicide. She wrote to him saying, Yeah, it will work.

If you emit 3,200 ppm of it for 5 to 10 minutes, you will die within half an hour. You'll lose consciousness with no pain. You just fall asleep and die. You can also just take a hose and run that from the exhaust pipe to the rear window in your car and seal it with duct tape and shirts so that it can't escape. You'll die within like 20 or 30 minutes, all pain-free. Just park your car and sit there. It'll take like

20 minutes. It's not a big deal. And you have to do it. I don't get why you aren't. You better not be bullshitting me and saying you're going to do this and then purposely get caught. If these texts were exchanged by adults, I would definitely feel much differently. But I really still just can't shake the feeling that Michelle never thought that this was serious. I don't know if she was taking this seriously. And there are multiple occasions where Conrad would text Michelle telling her he was going to take his own life that night and he would stop responding. Then text her the next day telling her that he hadn't gone through with it. On these occasions, Michelle would always be grateful that he was still alive.

And you can see we've mentioned this again and again. Whenever Michelle talks about suicide, Conrad responds positively to her. When she talks about running away together, he doesn't. There are a lot more I love yous coming from Conrad in the midst of these suicide conversations. And that's not to say that the messages Michelle is sending at this point aren't awful, irresponsible, heinous and worthy of punishment. They absolutely are. And what she does next is even worse.

So get this. The Ontario Liberals elected Bonnie Crombie as their new leader. Bonnie who? I just sent you a profile. Her first act as leader asking donors for a million bucks for her salary. That's excessive. She's a big carbon tax supporter. Oh, yeah. Check out her record as mayor. Oh, get out of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to light some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration

with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA

and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery+. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery+. You can join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial today. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest

to find the woman who saved my mom's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now, exclusively on Wondery+. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey, to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life.

I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding and this time if all goes to plan we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. In a bizarre vie for attention, on the 10th of July, Michelle texts her school friends, the few she had, telling them that Conrad had gone missing. She makes out that she's sick with worry and the police don't know where he is,

but actually she was texting Conrad the whole time. Two girls from her school came over immediately to Michelle's house to comfort her, and this would never have happened ordinarily. This confirmed Michelle's suspicion that she was so worthless that people only cared about her if she was in the midst of a tragedy. Or you could argue maybe she was testing the waters trying to find out if Conrad's death would get the affection that she needed. On the 11th of July, Michelle texted Sam Boardman, her friend, asking her,

is there any way a portable generator can kill you somehow? Michelle knew full well that Conrad had repaired a generator from his grandfather's shed and was planning on using it to kill himself. Three minutes after she had texted that question to Sam, Michelle texts Conrad saying, let me know when you're going to do it. The next day, the 12th of July 2014, Conrad told Michelle that he was having second thoughts and she wrote, you just need to do it Conrad or I'm going to get you help and Conrad says I'm going to do it today Michelle says do you promise Conrad I promise babe where do I go Michelle you can't break a promise go in a quiet parking lot so at 6 28 that evening Conrad called Michelle they spoke for 42 minutes and 46 seconds then at 7.12pm, Michelle called Conrad.

This call lasted for 46 minutes, 35 seconds. And we have absolutely no idea what they said. The next morning, Michelle texts Conrad saying, did you do something? Question mark, question mark, exclamation mark. Like she's, that's a frantic message that she's sending him. And she says, Conrad, I love you so much. Please tell me this is a joke. I'm so, Conrad, I love you so much. Please tell me

this is a joke. I'm so sorry. I didn't think you were being serious. I need you to please answer me. I'm going to get you help and you're going to get better. We will get through this. She sent over 70 more messages to him. Conrad had, of course, done something. He had driven his black truck to a car park behind a Kmart close to his home. He'd taken the generator he had repaired with the intention of sitting in his car and killing himself with carbon monoxide poisoning. Michelle texted Conrad's sister the evening that Conrad died, asking if she knew where Conrad was. Two days later, Michelle changed her story.

She told Sam Boardman that she had known exactly where Conrad was. In fact, she claimed to be on the phone with him as he died. She told Sam, quote, I was talking to him while he killed himself. I heard him cry in pain. I should have known. I should have did something. And then Sam writes back, it's not your fault.

My question here is, if someone is killing themselves with carbon monoxide gas, would they be crying out in pain? I don't think so. I think they'd go to sleep. Yeah, they would be very silently going to sleep. This thing with Sam Boardman, like her telling her that, like it's just, it feels so much like, you know, that's happened now.

Whatever's happened has happened. Like sad about that, of course. But it's getting me this affection and this attention from other people, which is what she so desperately wants. This is bullshit. Obviously, this is bullshit. She wasn't on the phone to him when he died. But it sounds much more dramatic and it sounds much more romantic and it sounds much more television-worthy,

which is where I think she gets a lot of her fantasies from. Absolutely. I think, honestly, at this point, I don't know, I think you're right. She's obsessed with this romantic idea of this dead boyfriend. And she's trying to make it last as long as she possibly can, I think. Absolutely. You're completely right. And don't get me wrong, I'm not making excuses for her. What she's doing is completely unethical and sick.

But, again, doesn't mean that she led to his death or doesn't mean that she meant or wanted that to happen. I think now it's happened and she is as you said making it last as long as she possibly can. So Conrad's body was discovered on the 13th of July in his car and some news outlets have been very clever with their omissions of the truth and they would lead you to believe that Conrad wrote a suicide note addressed to Michelle and that it had been discovered after his death in his car. That is not true. Conrad's father discovered a notebook in his son's bedroom that was filled with suicide notes, one of which was addressed to Michelle and the note told her to stay strong in tough times. Others were addressed to his family, his father in particular, saying,

Dad, I'm sorry I wasn't the boy you wanted. Conrad's funeral was held near his home, and Michelle attended. Conrad's mum Lynn had never met her before, and she was not aware of the depth of Michelle's relationship with her now dead son. And that makes sense to me, why would a teenage boy tell his mum about a girl that he texts all the time? After the funeral, Conrad's sister had an email from Michelle. The email read, quote, Conrad did not kill himself because of bullying like everyone assumes. I know the real reasons. She pasted in several messages that Conrad had written her. And she said, I pray every night that this is a bad dream and that I'll wake up

feeling happy and proud of myself and a good kid again. I see the world as a horrible place with a bunch of horrible people. There's a shortage of good, genuine people like you and me who care. Michelle also emailed Lynn directly, telling her that Conrad's death was not her fault. In Massachusetts, an unattended death is automatically categorized as an unsolved crime. So even though Conrad's family were accepting of the fact their son had killed himself, the police investigation began. And through that investigation, they opened

Conrad's phone. And there, of course, they found all of the texts from Michelle encouraging Conrad to take his own life. The two officers who make this discovery are in the HBO documentary, and they very, very briefly, and they claim that they couldn't get their heads around why an 18-year-old male would kill himself. So they started to look for the answer and they found that answer in Michelle Carter's text. And they really do paint her encouragement as the only factor. They conveniently leave out Conrad's history of severe depression. They're literally sitting there being like, oh, we just couldn't figure it out. Why would a kid who had it all kill himself? He's an 18-year-old white boy.

He's got nothing to worry about. And they're like, there must have been a reason. And that's where this narrative of Michelle being the only factor starts. And it's very hard and very complicated because, yeah, like the fact that I'm shocked that these two police officers found it shocking to believe that an 18-year-old boy had killed himself. The number of male, young male suicides, like how did they find it so shocking to believe that he had killed himself? But apparently they do. The summer passed and everyone tried to get on with their lives.

Michelle went back to school in September and even organized an event called Homers for Conrad, which took place on the day that would have been Conrad's 19th birthday. The event was meant to be a celebration of Conrad's short life and also an attempt to raise awareness for mental health, which is a nice sentiment. But Conrad's friends did think that it was odd that the baseball tournament was held in Michelle's town and not Conrad's. When she was questioned about this, Michelle asked if they were taking credit for her idea and moving the event to Matterpoisett. Michelle also texts one of her school friends asking her

to look at the Facebook page event, saying, I'm like famous now. This makes her look real bad. This is really, really bad. And I would also think the same thing if you know none of his friends are in Plainville they're all in Matterpoisette as are his family if it's actually about him and not about Michelle have it in Matterpoisette but it's obviously about Michelle it is about Michelle it's uh it is I think that's very clear to say like we're not here to be Michelle's fucking hype people or her PR people that's not the point of this episode we're just saying like let's examine all the facts and this is something that makes her look fucking stupid and bad and the only thing I can say is like is it easier like as a 17 18 year old to just organize something in your own town than in a town an hour away I don't know but

yeah that I'm like famous now it's not good I think I think she's just, I mean, she's not well, but also I think she's so desperate for like acceptance and approval. And I think she thinks that this will get her there somehow. And this is where people, when she does stuff like this, this is what make people think that she's like the popular mean girl. But like, she's not. She's desperate to be the popular mean girl. She can't manage it and

that's how the media absolutely painted her like when i first heard about this case saw the pictures saw everyone talking about her i thought she is a manipulative conniving popular mean girl typical high school bitch that's what i thought and that's just not it i'm not saying she does she doesn't do things that are incredibly unethical and make her look awful and are awful things to have done but she's not that person she's fucking on the fringes of like social life in her environment she's not that person but doesn't mean she's not a bit of a dick at times for sure obviously I can't like be the oracle on like everyone's teenage experience.

But when I'm reading about this stuff, I do see quite a lot of myself in Michelle. She's what I felt like as a teenager times 500. I think most teenagers feel lonely and isolated at one stage or the other. But her reaction to it is so extreme. The closest thing I can sort of tie it to is if you talk about things like Munchausen or Munchausen by proxy. With Munchausen syndrome, people will drink bleach. They will make themselves as ill as they possibly can to get the attention they need, like go to any extreme, self-harming, detrimental extent that it takes to get attention. This is almost like that, like she's willing to do whatever, however

unethical, to get that attention that she needs. Soon after Homer's for Conrad on the 15th of September, Michelle sent the now infamous text message that would lead to her arrest. She texts Sam Boardman about Conrad's death and she wrote, I could have stopped it. I was on the phone with him and he got out of the car because it was working and he got scared and I fucking told him to get back in. I could have stopped him, but I fucking didn't. All I had to say was I love you. Now we already know, as the intelligent bunch of people that we are,

if Michelle did say that, there is no written record. But you do have to wonder, is this the truth? This is two months after which she sends this text. So is it the truth or is it yet another attempt from a clearly unstable and naive teen dying for the attention of her peers? Tragedy has worked for Michelle in a sense. It's drawn girls closer to her. She feels like people care about her for the first time. Could she have been trying to make that feeling last as long as possible? Because what she wants is she wants Sam to be like, oh my God, Michelle, please don't worry about it it's not your fault I'll come over and I'll bring fucking ice cream

like that's what she wants which is an innocent thing to want of course of course and I think that you say like this happens two months after in teenage life in regular life like one of the most tragic things about death is that when it happens the people around it are sad but the world just keeps moving on and that is one of the most tragic things of losing anybody. And I think two months in, people are like, yeah, it's really tragic, but everybody's moved on to some extent. Not his family, but like her friends and the people at school. So she needs something to re-spark that connection, to re-spark that affection that she was getting. And yeah, I do wonder, is it true?

Is it just something extreme she has to make up to say to get everybody back on side? That's what I mean. That's what I think. The police were granted a warrant to search Michelle's phone, and she gave the authorities the password to her laptop as well, which, by the way, was fucking fuck 47. And she also gave them the passcode to her phone. And soon after she did this, Michelle was arrested,

and her texts hit the news. The Massachusetts public were against Michelle from the off. She was being compared to Saddam Hussein in the press. And as Jessie Barron puts it, a lot of people hate a lot of things about teenage girls. They're cold, they're calculating, they lead innocent boys astray, and Michelle Carter was now the archetype for everything wrong with the mean girls of America. So Michelle was released on a cash bail of just $2,500.

In February 2015, she was indicted for involuntary manslaughter, the maximum sentence for which is 20 years. She was represented by Joseph Cataldo, who, by the way, if you haven't watched this documentary or the 2020 documentary that is out there, he has the fucking best New England accent I have ever heard. I love it. I can't get enough. I love it.

Honestly, I would love to just meet a man with a New England accent because it's such a great accent. And also, so this indictment hearing is where that very famous picture from Michelle pulling that face is from where she looks like completely disinterested like her mouth is like off to the side it's before she gets a haircut and she just looks like this does not bother me at all this is nothing to do with me and uh everyone jumps all over that photo but I literally think it's just an unfortunate shot like I really don't think that's how she was feeling at her indictment for involuntary

manslaughter definitely I think it is that that narrative that they had built of her being this awful mean girl. And then there's a photo that almost looks like the next stage of it is her going into an eye roll at it. It just fits too perfectly. It fits far too perfectly. Not I'm saying to be real. I'm just saying, like, it fits the narrative that the press wanted to tell. So Michelle was indicted as a youthful offender, not as a juvenile, which would have meant that she could, if it came to it,

have been given an adult sentence at 17 years old. The trial began on the 6th of June 2017. Michelle was now 20 years old, and the first move by her defense team was to waive her right to a jury trial. So they go with a bench trial, which means that there is only a judge, no jury. And I think this decision was made on the basis that everyone and their dog within like a hundred mile radius knew exactly who Michelle Carter was and they hated her. I think that they could have argued to get it moved somewhere else if they really wanted a jury. But I would think the other reason is that this is, like we've seen with the

fallout of it it an incredibly emotive case I think they were banking on the fact that one judge could look at this and see it for what it was take it apart look at actual causation look at actual statute and be like no and not be swayed by the emotive text messages as they thought a jury would have been yeah I agree I mean I I mean, I think like that, yes, they could have moved it, but it would have had to still be in Massachusetts. And Massachusetts is quite a small state. So the prosecution led by Pitbull and now Judge Katie Rayburn had this case. It was Conrad Roy III would not have killed himself that day if it had not been for the intervention of Michelle Carter, who wanted a

dead boyfriend to get all the attention she felt that she deserved. Raber and her team argued that Michelle instructed Conrad to get back in the car and that Michelle's text to Sam Boardman was solid proof that Michelle was the reason that Conrad was dead. So remember, they don't have a text from Michelle saying that to Conrad. They have a text from Michelle saying that to Conrad, they have a text from Michelle telling Sam Boardman that she said that to Conrad on the phone. They also argued that it takes about 15 minutes to die from carbon monoxide poisoning. And because Conrad's phone was discovered with a flat battery, he must have died while on the phone to Michelle for the second time that evening.

Even as I read that out, I'm just like, that doesn't hold any fucking water as an argument for me. Like, what the hell? Like, how long was he even in that car before he was found? How does that prove anything? It's such a, I mean, they're using it to like, be like, oh, she was definitely the last person. She was on the phone with him as he died.

But I just don't see how they can know that at all. No, they can show that she was the last person on the phone to him by looking at his call log, but they can't prove that she was on the phone to him while he died by a flat battery. That isn't something that you can prove. So obviously the narrative that the prosecution went for was that they built Michelle up to be a heartless siren with no regard for sanctity of human life who would do whatever

it took to become popular. And what the prosecution do not mention is that Michelle continued to call Conrad after the second phone call when they'd actually spoken to each other for about 46 minutes. Michelle called again at 8.02 and that's just three minutes after she'd hung up the phone but the call went to voicemail and she called again at 8.04 and 8.06 and 9.15 and 9.17 and 9.40 and 9.49. She called him a total of 28 times. Does that sound like an action of premeditation to you or does it sound like a frantic teenager trying to get hold of someone who might be in trouble? If Michelle wanted Conrad to die, why call so many times? And if the prosecution's argument is correct, she already knew that Conrad was dead. If he died on the phone to her, why keep calling him?

The prosecution argue that this is a cover-up from Michelle, that she's making it look like it was nothing to do with her. But if she's already thinking about the police going through her phone, she knows the text are there. Even then, it would be a futile attempt. And I just don't think she is that cunning. I don't think she's that smart to be like, oh, well, shit, later on, if this goes to trial, or if the police look into it, I better call him a bunch of times to make it look like I didn't know he was already dead. I don't know. You know, and maybe we have got the wrong end of the stick on this and she is just a fucking psychopathic evil genius and she's totally heartless, etc. Maybe that is the truth. But I just don't, my opinion is that that is not the situation we're in.

No, I think the same thing. So Michelle's defense team, of course, argued that there was no evidence that Michelle actually told Conrad Roy to get back into his car. But I just feel like they don't seem to have pushed it too far or far enough. For example, Michelle never took the stand herself and she never seems to offer an alternative narrative of what went on on those phone calls. And it is, to be honest, a little infuriating that the only person in the whole world who knows what was said on that call is Michelle. Similarly to the William Melchett Dinkle case that we covered like a couple of years ago, the defense took a freedom of speech stance, arguing that suicide is not illegal and therefore

Michelle's texts of encouragement were protected by the First Amendment and were not criminal. Again, let's just reiterate, no one here is arguing that Michelle's words were not criminal. Again, let's just reiterate, no one here is arguing that Michelle's words were not terrible, not absolutely diabolical, some of the things that are said. But the question is, were they criminal? And even her actions, you can think she's a fucking bitch because she capitalizes for affection and attention on the death of Conrad Roy. But did she lead to his death? That's the question. Could Michelle have been pulled into her dark thought patterns of Conrad Roy, but did she lead to his death? That's the question. Could Michelle have been pulled into her dark thought patterns by Conrad himself? There is a definite shift in her conversation topics in the week before he died.

The defence called Dr Peter Bregan to the stand, who argued that Michelle, he says it in a really poetic way, and I don't think I'm managing to completely replicate it, but he says Michelle was at the very bottom of a pyramid of misery that Comrade Roy had been feeding her. He's feeding her all of this incredibly negative information for months and months and months, saying you're the only one I can talk to. And it gets to Michelle, is Dr. Bregan's argument. And he also says that Michelle was incredibly vulnerable, susceptible and struggling with her own mental health.

Dr. Bregan argues that she was in a state of involuntary intoxication due to her antidepressant medications and that she had become manic as a result. And that is why her behavior changed so drastically after the 2nd of July. During this mania, Michelle's sense of right and wrong were turned on their head and she genuinely believed that suicide was the best thing for Conrad to do. His family didn't understand him, doctors couldn't help him, so his only chance at happiness was death. That's Dr. Bregan's argument, it's not mine. Rabin, who is, oh, she is something else. She is probably one of the most aggressive prosecutors I've seen. She's having absolutely none of this argument. Throughout Dr. Bregan's testimony, she sat with the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Health Disorders on her desk.

And during her cross-examination, she asked the doctor which page she might be able to find the section on involuntary intoxication. Dr. Bregan was left with no choice but to say that no such section existed. Although later on, it was noted that involuntary intoxication is based on a number of conditions that could be found in the DSM. But even still, that must have been quite a dramatic moment.

This fucking guy who claims to be an expert throwing all these words around and then the prosecution is just like, yeah, but that's not actually real, is it? And apparently, involuntary intoxication is a term that seems to be only used in forensic psychology and there appears to be no consensus in the broader field of psychiatry that such a condition actually exists. And people were actually laughing at Dr. Bregan in the courtroom. And his best efforts made no difference. That makes me really sad because, I mean, I don't

agree with everything he says, but I do think that he does a good job of trying to look at it through the lens of Michelle Carter in terms of the criminal argument. And I just feel like the involuntary intoxication, if it's not in the DSM, it still feels like a valid thing, totally valid thing. How can anybody say like that there are no side effects to this kind of medication? You have to take it. You don't necessarily know the impact of what it's going to do to you, mentally speaking. I get that it's not in the DSM, but I don't know. Again, I think this was why they didn't go for a jury trial.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. Everyone sat in the jury just having this same confused look I currently have on my face. He just doesn't help himself, though. He's very like, the prosecution will be like, oh, but what about this thing she did? And he's like, yes, perfect example of how she is innocent. So he's not the best debater i don't think on the 16th of june 2017 the verdict was to be announced everyone in court was expecting just a guilty or a not guilty what's really interesting is when you watch this

documentary or watch the 2020 documentary this judge talks for ages he says that he first wants to provide context for his decision in the court, you can actually see a painfully thin Michelle Carter wildly looking to her lawyer for translation as the judge speaks. The judge starts by calling Michelle's actions in the lead-up to Conrad's suicide wanton and reckless. But he said that the Commonwealth had not proved that said behavior had caused the death of Conrad Roy. And honestly, it sounds like when you're watching it,

it's very much like he's doing a Simon Cowell. He's like, just starts talking, he doesn't give the verdict, and he's like, it's wanton and reckless, however. Because it very much sounds like when he first says that, like he's not going to find her guilty. But then he says that the court finds by telling Conrad Roy to get back in the truck, Michelle Carter created a situation where there was a high degree of likelihood of substantial harm. And so the judge

found her guilty based on this and also her failure to call anyone else for help or tell Conrad to get out of the car. The judge said that Michelle had a duty to alleviate the risk and this failure caused the death of Conrad Roy. Michelle Carter was allowed to stay out of jail until her sentencing. During this time, she attempted to appeal her conviction on the basis of free speech, but it was denied by the Supreme Court. Judge Scott Kafka wrote, quote, After she convinced him to get back into the carbon monoxide-filled truck,

she did absolutely nothing to help him. she did not call for help or tell him to get out of the truck she just listened to him choke and die again that's all believing that she's on the phone to him like whilst it's happening and she told him to get back in the truck which we have no proof of that's all based on a text message she sent to her mate two months later. Exactly. Michelle Carter was sentenced to 15 months in jail, but she got out last week, last Thursday, to be precise. Michelle served a year inside and apparently was a model prisoner. She was let out early for good behaviour and she'll be on probation for the next five years.

Comrade's family have expressed their disappointment that Michelle didn't serve her full sentence, but they said that they understand that that's a normal process for someone with good behaviour. But with that said, quote, Lin, Conrad's mum, released a statement saying, From the bottom of my heart, I want to thank everyone who has supported my family over the last five years And I think Lynn is interesting because in the documentary when they interview her, she just says, you know, she's just not well. Like she doesn't seem that angry with Michelle really because she's like, how can I be angry? Like she's just not not well like she doesn't seem that angry with Michelle really because she said she's like how can I be angry like she's just not well and that's the tragedy of this whole thing it was two teenagers who were both not well who were both either already in an

incredibly dark place or slipping into an incredibly dark place finding each other was like an incredibly destructive force that as um dr bregan says michelle was at one point in that pyramid of misery conrad roy was in another point in that pyramid of misery and instead of moving both of them down and out of it they seemed to pull each other up it until the ultimate tragedy happened in the hbo documentary conrad jr so that's conrad's dad is asked what he thinks caused the death of his son. And without hesitation, he says, Michelle Carter. But is that really the case?

Is she the only reason? And was the part she played in Comrade's death enough for a guilty verdict? I'm not sure. No, I'm not sure. And it's also what we said earlier, like, the press want to scapegoat Michelle because it makes it a much more interesting story rather than just a tragic one of a poor 18, 17, 18 year old boy who was going through an incredibly difficult time with untreated, not well treated depression. And he had already made four attempts on his life and he killed himself.

It's an unbelievable tragedy, but it doesn't sell papers like this story does. And I think, unfortunately, Conrad Roy's parents and his family want it also to be Michelle's fault because then it makes it easier to understand why their son killed himself and why this happened. Understanding suicide, I can't even imagine how, as a loved one of that person, you could even begin to wrap your head around why they went the feeling of desperate sadness and abandonment and tragedy so it's always easier if there is a reason for it that is more tangible than he was depressed and we didn't know what to do to help him and that's just the ultimate tragedy of the whole thing and I don't think

after having done the research for this case that it was Michelle's fault I don't think it was she wasn't the reason she didn't help towards the end but she wasn't the reason that he killed himself I don't personally think even if that text did exist because that's the thing that's what she gets convicted on the judge separates her behavior into two sections like in the run-up and that's what he calls wanton and reckless and then the actual trigger point phone conversation where she tells him to get back in the car exactly so for you do you think if that if that text if it was actually via text and we could prove that she had said that to conrad roy that there was a text that existed on the day that he killed himself from michelle to conrad roy saying get back in the truck, get back in the car.

Would that make a difference for you in terms of your feelings towards this? I think it would make a difference. I think I would be more inclined to think that she had some sort of criminal responsibility, but I don't even know if even then I would think she was guilty of involuntary manslaughter. I'm not sure. It's too multifaceted for me. I think if that text did exist, then maybe I could be swayed a bit more towards criminal responsibility.

But even then, it's difficult. And like we keep saying, with everything that has happened, with everything that we have shown you, there was no evidence. And the judge actually says that. The judge actually says during the sentencing, the prosecution haven't been able to prove

that Michelle Carter caused Conrad Roy's death. Reckless and wanton. And that message that is never shown that she says and the fact that she doesn't call for help was enough that she didn't alleviate the risk. And she should have known that he was at substantial harm. And that's why she's found guilty of manslaughter. But that seems a stretch to me. Yeah, because this has happened so many times before. This is not the first time he's been telling her I'm going to do it tonight. And

people also feeling angry that she was released early. She was sentenced to 15 months and she served a year. Like, usually people get out with half sentences. She wasn't even released that early, really, considering. I would say most people, if they got sentenced to 15 months, I wouldn't be surprised if they got out in seven or eight, you know? She was actually denied parole once, I think. She went for parole in September last year and they said no. She certainly, I don't think, poses a harm to anybody else. I think this was a tragic set of circumstances

that came together and transpired like this. But anyway, that is the case of Michelle Carter. Like we said, for the love of God, please don't then immediately go and fucking be awful to people on the internet that you've never met because of having disagreements. We can all have our own opinions on this case. No one will ever know the truth of what really happened. That's that. But obviously do have a conversation about it. We do want to hear people's thoughts. Yeah, just don't rip each other apart because it's tacky.

Exactly. It is. So yeah, you can do that on all the social medias at Red Handed The Pod. You can join the Facebook group, Twitter, Instagram, etc, etc. You can also, if you love us, come and join us on Patreon where you can help support the show by making a pledge. We are actually totally transforming our Patreon for 2020, which is very exciting.

And we mean transforming by adding loads more content to it which is super exciting so if you want to keep listening to today's episode bounce on over to patreon.com forward slash red handed for some extra fucking content we've got a new segment it's called under the duvet and we're just going to chat shit for a bit exactly it's the after show after we hit stop record on this hannah and i do carry on talking for about a good 15 20 minutes or so about whatever else is going on, just because why not? So if you want to come join the after show party, which is now called, as Hannah said, Under the Duvet, come on over. And here are some lovely

people, some of whom can do that. So thank you very much to Alexander Chatterley, Lindy Peralata, Bethan Heathcote, Miri, Sarah Sayoka, Courtney Page, Elise Palmer, Bex Laffer, Eilish Harris, Tina Tran. And last week's episode, you were saying the same, like, Alba. And you were like, no, it's Alba. And I was like, Alba. I just immediately got to saying it wrong again. Sheena, Olivia Rubelini, Lauren Leach, Sally Quinn, Anna Nugent. How do I say that? Wen.

Wen, that's the one. I knew it was something like that. Soyla Garcia, Holly, Kelly R. Smith, Sam Brett, Parker Love, Dupain, Fallon, Danielle Coyle, Sunshine Banks,

Robin, Jamie Casey, Alexandra Emiko, Sea Glee, Joy, Mel Dixon, Oliver, Natalie Nevitt,

Momo, Eva Schlutz, Schlutz, Schlutz, yeah. Schultz. Connor, Kelly Begney, and then Hannah can go. Cassia Compton, Tyler, oh, don't know Tyler, sorry.

Avril Krauss, Alyssa Stanfield. Tyler Keogh. Yeah, that one. Yeah. Cork Photo, Sabrina Kinsey, Stephanie Nelson, Abigail Edgerton, Aaliyah Kachnya, Valgaror, John's daughter, Kitty Moyle, Cara, Morgan McDaniel,

Bailey Jones, Yolanda Dalton, LL space L. I don't know what that is. Beatriz Gomez, Emily Krawczyk, Kathy Baker, Alyssa Alcon Design,

Perry Dawn, Camille, Meretic Alford, Beth Mosley, Emiliana Lozano, Jessie Dalton, Hannah Forsberg, Lily Burke, Rachel, so much. Berkland, Modesta Jacobs, Alexandra Eastman, Ross Gardner, George Street, Amy Gilkes. Thanks, guys, so much. And we'll see you in the after show

and or next week, depending on your preference. Exactly. Goodbye. Bye. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either, until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life.

I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts,

Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudine Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On the Media. To listen, subscribe to On the Media wherever you get your podcasts.