RedHanded - Episode 134 - Lindsay Souvannarath & The Valentine's Massacre Plot

Episode Date: February 13, 2020

In 2015, self-proclaimed Nazi - Lindsay Souvannarath and her murderous bae, James Gamble plotted to commit a Valentine's Day mass shooting at a mall in Nova Scotia. Thankfully their plan failed. But to understand what led these two "lovebirds" on a sadistic path of rage and murder, we need to explore the dark world of online radicalisation, white supremacy, esoteric Hilterism and teen Tumblr romance... Expect a lot of cock swastikas, meme chat and race hate. Bonus content available at patreon.com/RedHanded Sources: https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/eve54j/the-woman-who-plotted-a-valentines-mass-murder-shares-how-the-internet-radicalised-her https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/valentine-s-day-massacre-halifax-shopping-centre-1.5026472 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/lindsay-souvannarath-valentine-s-day-massacre-plot-mall-loses-appeal-1.5154231 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/20/lindsay-souvannarath-valentines-day-shooting-plot-canada-life-sentence https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43841425 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7377107/Inside-Columbine-inspired-murder-plot-saw-American-woman-jailed-life-plotting-massacre.html https://www.mymcmurray.com/2019/04/16/appeal-today-for-chicago-woman-who-plotted-halifax-shopping-mall-massacre/ https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/lindsay-souvannarath-james-gamble-halifax-shooting-spree-mall_ca_5ceee358e4b07e067d885c54?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvLnVrLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAGPM2h14r1nz0jfOkqFNaDZgAtS9eWMycZiBBEbPTxRfdlbHNbRO3Bn75qfys6NzFT3EdrI1gjFvI1EKWb9aD4k1CUOd-uKtUZs4SViC8IVC2zF5SgTG2DlzG7YiJO6Bq60KWm1aBm__hxrrdMN4OSG7sWWfJ41fjwhr7HMMOVW- https://www.thechronicleherald.ca/news/local/halifax-mall-shooting-plotter-youre-just-purifying-the-world-from-those-who-just-do-not-have-very-much-to-contribute-283596/ See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hannah.

I'm Saruti. And welcome to your Valentine's Day special. Please enjoy this completely made-up day however you choose. I will be going to the cinema on my own like I do every year. Oh, no, I don't know. It's a Friday. It's a Friday this year. Who knows what we could do? Could do anything. The world's your Valentine's-y oyster. Yeah, that's true. Like I have to do anything at any other time. This is true.

Like days of the week mean anything to me. Exactly. Now every day is a made up day for us, so it doesn't really matter. It doesn't really matter, so you can do what you want. Maybe you'll take your loved one for a lovely walk, or maybe you'll buy them some flowers, go to dinner, dress your dog up in a small UPS man's outfit. Whatever you want to do, it's your day.

We have chosen to celebrate Valentine's Day by making you listen to 45 or maybe more minutes of mass shootings, Nazis and quite unexpectedly for me, memes. Memes was the last thing I expected to show up in a episode about Nazism. What says true love? Like white supremacy and internet jokes, though. Really? Really. When you come down to it, when you break it all down. I saw a really good Hinge bio that was like fluent in English and memes.

I was like, that's funny. That's your man. That's your man, Hannah. Go get him. Go get your man. No, no. Face like a spade. But don't worry. You won't have to be looking at any white nationalist websites because we have done it for you it has not been a fun week

at red-handed hq well you say that but then also i do hope that one day i find a man who loves me as much as nazis love race hate and poorly formatted websites. Because, uh, oh, mate. Yeah. Yeah. It really is something. There is quite a good one, though, but it's the one I haven't linked because I think it's irresponsible, which we'll come on to later. That one is quite well laid out.

And like the writing is very like flowery. And I was going to say inspiring. Then it's not inspiring. It's trying to be inspiring. Somebody please just take do super cuts of Hannah saying there's quite a good dance website out there it's very inspiring oh god yeah please ruin my life that's fine we started our web journey into white supremacy with the now defunct website called ironmarch.org do not try and enter that into your search bar i did and my computer

literally started screaming that's not a joke it went ah so i was like oh god what's happened what's happened oh well that's nice at least you're in at least your computer isn't a racist that's quite nice imagine if it was like oh yeah hannah about time let's do it i've been waiting. It's been in the favorites for weeks. It just starts playing like that old school radio love music. Like, wow, wow. I can't do it.

I'm so tone deaf. You know what it is. iMarch.org. Just the opening to sexual healing. Okay, I promise I don't think Nazis are funny. No, but we are going to laugh at them because fuck them. Oh, yeah. And also, this is a romantic episode, so we're going to bring the love, guys.

I literally just snorted coffee out of my nose. You're so hot. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Come and get it, fellas. I still can't do the sound. Wow, wow. I'm like bouncing about. Wow. I can't do the sound wow wow I'm like bouncing about wow I can't do it oh my god okay let's practice later and you can uh we can just insert me doing it better later we won't this is it but yeah well this is me doing it better I'll bring my keyboard around

your house and we'll start doing some scales. Oh, okay. Right. Sorry. Iron March, the website that makes your computer scream, was founded by a man of almost mythic proportion. Very little is known about this guy, apart from the fact that he's probably Russian. And online, he went by the name Alexander Slavros. This Slavros character is a neo-Nazi legend.

He's written books and blogs and articles and all sorts about his national socialist dreams ironmarch.org became a catalogue of his works and also a forum for fascists to talk to each other about being fascists and how white people have been so horribly hard done by all of these years and this might go without saying but you can never be too sure so here is a brief history of National Socialism for your Valentine's Day convenience. We're going to segue seamlessly into our new segment, which is entitled Very Quick Rundowns of Political Paradigms That Are Probably Wrong. I'm into it. I'm into it. I think the people will follow us.

The people will follow us. So National Socialism is the catch-all term for the principles and practices of the Nazi Party, everybody's favourite party. The full name of the party is the National Socialist German Workers' Party. And here is, as Hannah said, for this brand new segment brought to you exclusively by Red Handed, an entirely simplified version of the Nationalist Socialist Doctrine. It definitely obviously has a longer history than you might think, but we don't want to give you all that.

And we are, after all, the bullet point generation. Yeah, this is my attempt to be the biographics man off YouTube. Oh, we're going to talk about him in our Under the Duvet conversation. Oh, are we? I watched the Mengele one last night. Joseph Mengele, fucking anthropologist, not even a medical doctor. I'm ashamed of my academic background. Oh, God.

Yeah, I've definitely got a lot of love and despot chat for Under the Duvet today. Okay, I'll save it. If you're a $5 patron on our pair, you can head on over and join us there shortly after the show. I keep wanting to speak in a really sultry voice today. Must be all the Valentine's air hitting me. So back to our bullet points about the nationalist socialist doctrine. So the ideals of the French Revolution are the opposite of national socialism. Nazis don't want the people to rule themselves. They want one leader who tells everyone what to do. They want the Sun King. And that is actually, I did watch a, um, I did watch a biographics on Louis XIV and I just wanted to keep, I just kept wanting to say, because, uh uh the nazis loved the sun king oh fuck yeah of course they did and the desperation for the good old days is a very common theme nietzsche also had a lot to answer for for this his concept of

the superman was jumped all over and doubled down on when natural selection reared its head in the 19th century yeah darwin and hitler you don't really think of them as being aligned in views, but somehow, kind of. Comfortable bedfellows. Yeah. And then a bunch of influential academics decided that the greatest race on the planet who could do the most stuff the best the fastest were the Nordic or Germanic peoples of Europe.

Hitler, who was quite famously not a German, but Austrian, was influenced by all of these themes and also by Austrian movements of pan-Germanic expansion and anti-Semitism. He added in hatred of Slavic people, the LGBTQ community, the Roma community, people with disabilities, and loads more later on in his political career, after he didn't manage to make it as an artist in the multicultural and multi-ethnic Vienna. The Nazis also hated communists. Karl Marx, obviously, a Jewish person. Ethnically Jewish. Not practicing, I don't think.

Germany had been crippled economically by the Treaty of Versailles at the end of the First World War, and Hitler rose to power with his rhetoric of Germany for Germans. Does that sound familiar to anybody? And quite quickly, he was a totalitarian dictator. And we all know what happened next if you don't

please go and read a book for your own sake go read several books please for everybody's sake go and do a gcse in history because that's really served me so well in my historical fucking i was gonna say like um when we say like darwin and uh hitler were like you know somewhat ideological. We don't mean like Darwin was a Nazi. We just mean like the whole thing about natural selection that he brought up. Hitler perverted that to run with his whole like racist ideology. Yeah, it was just like very at the front of science at the time that was like survival of the fittest.

And then it was like white people are the fittest. Therefore, we're just going to. Yeah, it's like the whole kind of uh pseudo intellectual movement that we see now we're just gonna take like we're gonna either like ignore science we're gonna take small parts of it and then twist it and pervert it to prove whatever we want and if you look into it i think we have talked about this before on the show if you just go look into the world of like incredibly racist science quote unquote science in the history of like humanity it is uh shocking oh totally and like anthropology

it was started as a racist discipline just going to to look at what other cultures were doing and judging it and then anthropology has had like an academic crisis in more recent years because it's had to sort of turn in on itself and then you're a native anthropology where you just look at people who are like you and decide why they do the things that they do it's pretty pretty tricky territory yeah anthropologists baddens man for a really long time. Oh, for sure. Lots of head measuring. Oh, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Which obviously the Nazis loved. So in summary, read a book. We can't really hold your hand through the whole of World War Two. There are really excellent history podcasts out there. This is not one of them. Go and find them. What we're interested in talking

about today and why we've just done this rundown is we're looking at how, after World War II, Nazi ideology has continued to exist and the forms that it takes in our world today. And yeah, important to reiterate, we're not a history podcast, we're not a Nazi podcast, we're not Nazi experts, and nor are we Nazis. Do you know who had a podcast, though?

Who did? Alexander Slavros. He had a podcast called Fascism 101lexander slavros he had um a podcast called fascism 101 of course he fucking did of course trying to appeal to the ute it's like that tweet did we talk about it on under the derail i can't remember we're just joking about it at the pub where it was that tweet where it was like um having a podcaster's our generation's lower back tattoo alexander slavros has got a big fat tramp stamp and it's called i don't know what was it called what was it fascism 101 what a fucking patronizing name even to the people he's trying to appeal to

yeah yeah what a wanker but yeah if you are a Nazi expert and um you want to chime in go nuts let us know after this episode comes out if you are a Nazi then um well good luck so that takes us back to Mr. Alexander Slavaros the the man with the tramp stamp Fascism 101 tattoo, and today's neo-Nazis. Slavaros made at least 6,000 posts on ironmarch.org during its six-year career between 2011 and 2017. These posts included bomb-making instructions and threats against innocent people.

His attitude can be summed up with this quote. We don't think murder is wrong on principle, and we do not believe that every human life is sacred. This applies to our own people as well. Just because they are kin by blood doesn't mean they can't be cancer to the nation, which must be removed in order for truth and justice to triumph. Oh, well. Take him home to meet your mum, wouldn't you? What a nice boy. He's so chill. He's so chill and fun. He's so driven,

mum. He's so ambitious. He's got a podcast, for God's sake. Exactly. He's got a podcast. He's got a website. I mean, come on now. Come on. And also fascism is another word that you will hear thrown around a lot. If it's a term that you're not totally comfortable with, don't worry. This Iron March user has the answer for you. In their essay entitled, What is Fascism? So helpful. I know. So helpful.

Fascism 101. Thank you so much. And they write, fascism means understanding, quote, that everyone from individuals to nations, races, and species have their place in a cosmic hierarchy. This holds true even when we're faced with the uncomfortable notion that we're not at the top of that hierarchy. When the social order reflects the natural order, which is to say that every member of society fulfills the role that is most appropriate to their nature, then that society has

realized the fascist ideal. It's interesting that these people who write this and say, even if it means that you're not at the top of this hierarchy, are usually white men who put themselves at the top of that hierarchy. Who is it that needs to be okay with the fact that they're not at the top of that hierarchy and don't have equality? Is it me? Yes, brown lady, I think it might be you. Fuck you. I bet more people listen to my podcast than yours, Alexandra Slavaros. And of course, the fascist ideal that they are referring to, that a country or a nation will have achieved when all this happens, is that it is an all white ethno state. Because of course, as we have alluded to, people who are not white are not at the top of

the hierarchy in the fascist and nazi paradigm iron march was an online war room for the most extreme of extremists and also a place for slavaros to promote his own personal website and his books of which you can find a list on goodreads no less they don't have any reviews but they're there god someone had even reviewed bloody Dylan Roof's manifesto. And this guy published it and he didn't even get a single review on Goodreads. Tragic. So Iron March was a radicalisation hotbed. The terrorist cell Atomwaffen was strongly affiliated with the site.

And they have been connected to at least five murders. And they happened as recently as 2017. Slavaros blamed some of these deaths on an Islamic extremist and called the perpetrator, quote, a deranged scumbag whose tendencies were fed and further developed by his conversion to Islam, who had infiltrated a nationalist group with the explicit purpose of destroying it from within in the name of his heretical faith. He added that he thought he could safely say in the name of his heretical faith he added that he thought he could safely say that every member of his fraternity thought that this quote deranged scumbag and his little harem of converts deserve death that sounds quite familiar doesn't it in

terms of like when anyone does a terrorism the other parts of that religion are like oh but he's not we're not like that he's not ours do you know what i mean oh of course religion are like, oh, but he's not, we're not like that. He's not ours. Do you know what I mean? Oh, of course. Of course. Like, oh, he's, he's nothing to do with this. I don't know where he got those thoughts from. It's the problem with anything like this. You publish, you put ideas out there, people will interpret them however they want. And you can't then just be like, well, it's got nothing nothing to do with me i don't know where that came from i've read i'm not sure how true this is but there is a theory that like atom often were communicating with each other through iron march and they are putting all of their plans like for the people on the forum and because alexander slavros is like the the king moderator like he

must have read and approved all of the posts so he knew exactly what was going on, allegedly. So another active group on Iron March were called the Nordic Resistance Movement and they attacked a Swedish refugee camp centre in 2017 as well. So there's no question that Slavros is radicalising people, or at least he was when Iron March was running. And one of those people is the central character of our case this week. And it only took us 25 minutes to get to her, but we finally managed it. We're setting the scene, guys. Context. Exposition. So her name is Lindsay Savanarath, and she came across Slavros on a site called DeviantArt. She saw a piece of his work liked it commented on it

and decided to follow him on the website according to lindsey and apparently other internet nazis this comment led to an online romantic relationship between savannah and slavaros is that how easy it is because uh i'm i don't know i'm on fucking hinge tinder do you want a nazi boyfriend is that what no i don't but i'm just saying maybe he's not on deviantart maybe he's on lovely expressions of my art dot com that is not deviant or related to race aid really good clean fun dot com exactly it's okay we'll we'll talk i'll go looking for that later don Don't worry about it. Now I know this strategy. Oh, my life.

I also just, I just don't think it's true. I really don't think I believe it all the way. Lindsay was about 16 years old when she commented on this piece of art. Maybe she was 17. She was living in Illinois. So how interested is an adult man living in Russia, wielding a reasonable amount of power? Is he really going to be that bothered? I don't think so. I don't think that he was necessarily into her romantically. But I think these kind of radicalizers, and we've talked about it,

like when we did the Dylann Roof case, etc., that they understand. They're good profilers. They understand what these marginalized kids need. She is a 16, 17-year-old girl living in Illinois. He probably was very quickly able to establish that she's lonely, she's isolated, she's probably going to respond well to some sort of romantic chat. And that's what he gives her.

But the truth is that he was radicalizing her. And she probably wasn't the first. And he was 100% successful. Lindsay was spouting Nazi propaganda like a stupid parrot in no time. And we don't know much about their relationship but we do know that it ended messily slavaros got himself a new internet girlfriend and lindsey did not take that very well at all she admitted later that she eventually accepted that this online affair was taken much more seriously by her than it had been taken by the king of the Nazi web

space. But her breakup with Slavros didn't put Lindsay off the Nazis. Quite the opposite. She continued to do what she calls network with other national socialists online. When she's asked about her love life, Savannah Rath stated, quote, I don't like love and it doesn't like me. Just because I fail to be as bland and sweet seeming and saccharine as all these other women who are in relationships, I ended up staying single for a long time. She's so like the classic. It's just because I'm so interesting and I just won't be like basic like these other women that I can't get into a relationship. It's not my fault. It's all of the other women in the world. I know. And they're so stupid and simple and saccharine. And that's why guys like them. And they're just intimidated by me and all my race hate. And that's why.

I could settle if I wanted to, but I won't. Could you, Lindsay? Fuck off, Lindsay. You're an idiot. But apparently people made Lindsay feel like she was unworthy of love because she wasn't the relationship type. I think it's so... Like, she's obviously very upset

that she's not in a relationship but she doesn't want to be like, I'm sad, so she's like, I'm angry and you're all stupid. That's exactly it, isn't it? It's just the most dangerous kind of subversion when sadness or frustration or loneliness gets subverted into rage and that's what happens here because she

doesn't know how to deal with it and she doesn't know how to change she's fully taken the red pill if we compare her to like the incels she's fully like nothing i do can change this is who i am this is how i am people don't like it i won't find anybody i won't get into a relationship because of who i am therefore i am now gonna fuck the world yeah exactly just because it's literally she is a female incel i suppose in many ways like she's just like i don't fit the mold i'm not becky so it's over for me exactly and i think the reason one of the key reasons we wanted to cover this case is because she is so interesting and such an anomaly in this space. She's half Asian. She's a young girl.

And she's behaving what we typically see of like angry young white men shooters. God, it's so strange. And before we get any further, we have to let you know about a podcast that has covered this case. It's called Night Time and it's hosted by a canadian guy called jordan bonaparte i have no idea if he's actually related to napoleon or how funny he would think that joke is probably not very he has probably good joke though good joke good joke for me i think he might be quite annoyed but it's a really good series it's a seven-parter and we wouldn't have been able to do this episode without it really so definitely go listen to it yeah go listen to it say hi to Jordan for us

and he what he's managed to become like an authority on this case which is like Jordan give us your secrets man he's done that by getting access to Lindsay Savanarath herself loads of articles reference his show this seven-part series that he's done he follows Lindsay and what she's getting up to and it also includes interviews with lindsey herself and it's as i said seven part is i think he actually has like four hours of her talking you get about an hour and a half over the series what's interesting though is like you know you get into when you're talking about nazis you get into quite sort of sticky ethical territory and he was saying that like he didn't really want to give her a platform for her views so he never really asked her why she thought the way that she

did I mean he does kind of but he doesn't really like push it that far and I can understand why it is really tricky it's really tricky because part of it is like do you want to be giving somebody like that a platform but then also just because we look away from something like that doesn't mean it goes away and how could we ever hope to change people's thinking or combat that if we sort of don't hear it or don't look directly at it? But I completely understand his trepidation around it. And I would feel exactly the same. Yeah, so go and listen to it after this episode if you want more of a feel for who Lindsay Savanarath is and what her voice sounds like. I can tell you that she's the type of person who liked to make memes.

She made nasty memes about Slavaros' new girlfriend in an online hate campaign against her. And she also made memes about school shootings. She sounds totally over it. She sounds totally over it, doesn't she? Now, Lindsay had been seven years old when the most famous school shooting in the Western world took place. And she started to get especially interested in it when she was writing her first novel when she got older.

And it was called If a Skull Could Blush. She is fucking Miss Valentine Goth. She really is, isn't she? No, actually, you know, I don't want to say that because Goths are cool. They're fine. She's just a dick. And she still hasn't finished it. So she's not really, you know, too committed to it, apparently.

And it's about a boy who falls in love with death. Hmm. Okay. Her writing isn't terrible. It's like, it's fine. It's just not like, it's not original, is it? Like, they've been writing about people falling in love with death, talking to death since the Middle Ages. Come on, Lindsay.

Try harder, be better with your goth literature, Lindsay. C minus, try harder. As Hannah says, she isn't a terrible writer, but bloody hell, she shouldn't be because she has a degree in English and creative writing and a reputation for creepy pastors, which that sounds weird when you say it in an English accent. Creepy pastor. I feel like it should be like creepy pastor. Why are you saying pastor?

I don't know. That's a good question. That's not even... You could add this to the garage list. Listen, listen people. Today is the episode to bring this up yes i mispronounce words all the fucking time english is my third language fucking hell no i'm not really annoyed about it i think it's hilarious when you guys laugh at me but that is the reason i'm not just fucking

stupid or can't read i'm reading right now. I'm reading this script. So these creepypastas that Lindsay wrote, some of them are still in circulation today because obviously people don't just like take things down off the internet because they were written by a Nazi. And her most famous one is called My Pet Skeleton. You can find it on the fan tumblers about lindsey because uh yes they exist and the one that we found is called temple of the edge queen good it's so ridiculous isn't it i love it i kind of love it oh man and yeah like hannah said we've read the story it's fine she is an is an edgelord. She's an edge queen. She really is an edge queen.

That's it. And if we're talking memes, there's a great meme out there. I'm sure you guys have all seen it. Fucking edgelords. All of the edge. None of the point. And it's a picture of a saw. Yeah, so my pet skeleton, I think I've actually come across it before a couple of times, which

has just made my insides feel really weird. What are you doing reading fucking creepy pastors pastors okay on the internet explain yourself I was in Korea I did absolutely no work and I finished the internet and like I completed it mate it's done I did it just got to the last page and it's just a picture of a cat saying, The end. Le fin. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I went through a really strange period of like finding creepypastas and just reading them. And I am sure that I read My Pet Skeleton. But it was for her novel, not her creepypastas, pastas, whatever.

But it was for her novel that lindsey became obsessed with columbine lindsey's writing by the time that she was in her late teens was pretty dark indeed unusually dark one could argue for someone who had had such a normal upbringing lindsey describes herself as popular in primary school when her family lived in chicago itself but she found it more difficult to make friends when her family moved to geneva which is out in the suburbs. So just to clarify, I was going to say that's Geneva, Illinois, not Geneva. I was like, yeah, I'd find that pretty hard. I was having a great time in Chicago and then my family moved me to Geneva and then it was kind of tough. Yeah, now I have to fucking speak French and German. And be incredibly boring. Just joking. I'm sure it's fine.

Geneva's nice. It looks like like a Wes Anderson film but it is pretty boring yeah I was there for three days and I was like I'm done yeah yeah and so expensive the only reason I had a good time was my friend worked in a bar and it was like this like wine bar where they just give you a card and you load it up with money and you put it into a little slot and then the wine pours out and he just gave me one of those that were just like free so I just like had a great time it's like vagabond but free vagabond's great but yes exactly like that and you know you feel super bait when you're just walking around looking at the things and you're like which one is the cheapest how many how much is that per mil okay we'll go with this one how do I get the most wine for the least amount of money please so she's in Geneva Illinois not Geneva Switzerland with its wine

bars and other than that move which can be difficult obviously but her family life seems pretty normal but that's all coming from Lindsay like I don't I couldn't find anything about her family talking about what she was like growing up Lindsay's mum is of eastern European descent and her dad is from Laos so Lindsay's interest in Nazism and white supremacy might seem a little bit odd. But Lindsay sort of explains this away by saying that she's never identified with her Eastern heritage and she never really saw herself as Asian.

Her ideology is based on the way she thinks the world should be and not her own genetic makeup. I don't know if I have the strength to get into the transracialism argument, but, like, can you just decide? I don't know. you just decide I don't know I don't know I mean I don't know either it's very complicated I mean the whole Rachel Dolezal thing like I've definitely spent many an hour in a pub talking about you know why is what she did so wrong if she just decides what she's doing I think it's obviously with that not to set

off like everybody on the internet I'm going to say it's because of the thing she's picking and choosing the things that she wants and there's no permanency behind it. So it's very questionable. In this case, I think it's to do with like Lindsay's level of self-hate. And also if you think she's growing up in probably quite a white suburb, I'm just going to guess it sounds like it. kind of could pass she doesn't necessarily look like she's half Asian totally so maybe that's enough for her I'm not sure I don't know where that comes from yeah she's just very much like my dad never taught me his language like I've never had any influence she's got no connection to it but then to just bring up my uh love of Dr Phil which I know is terrible I know he's terrible

i know the show is terrible but still has anybody seen the episode with that black girl who was just like i hate black people and she thinks that she is white and it's all sorts of fucking messed up i have not seen that but i know what i'm doing directly after i don't know if it's real i don't know if she's just trolling everybody but she seems very committed to it but uh I don't think Lindsay's that far but I think Lindsay just I think she's white or identifies with that I don't know so Lindsay I just don't think she can have been that happy but because she's talked obviously like the the wealth of stuff that Jordan Bonaparte got out of her which is incredible it's her talking so she's not going to be like I was really miserable like look about what she was saying about being not in a relationship she's just going to be like everything

was fine everyone else was the problem not me so she claims that she withdrew to find friends on her computer because she's a very efficient person and online friends are easier to find and less time consuming than real life ones so she's like oh it's just business it's just a matter of efficiency no it's not Lindsay you are really sad and lonely it is really sad and lonely and i also wonder if you know how because i don't feel like i'm totally clear in the ideology that she has does she think of herself as being at the top of this hierarchy she sees herself as being one of these special people doesn't she no it's not really about her it's about the like the dream of the ethno state which like it's the idea it's the idea it's the dream it's not necessarily about her in which case then you could

say look at how many women and minorities are fervently attached to um a religion that ultimately if you read the scriptures read the books would have them oppressed and in a society where they would be oppressed but they will still be some of the most like fervent backers of that religion maybe it's kind of like that it's just the bigger picture she's like it's not about me i'm a sacrificial lamb i know my place everybody should know their place but this is the ideal by which we should live maybe it's got nothing to do with how she sees herself as white or not. I think that's it. I think she wants to change the way people think because the ethnostate can't happen until enough people think the way she thinks and she'll be long dead. And she has the zealousness of a convert to it because she's not even what you would call like

native to this ideology. So I think that's probably where it's coming from. I don't know if it's actually got anything to do with whether she's white passing or not. I think it's just got to do with the ideal that she's completely bought into. And yes, as Hannah said, Lindsay was incredibly lonely and she spent most of her time online. But she did have some real life friends. She was a drama kid for a while

and a regular at her school's role playing games club. And you read in a lot of places that during her Dun and dragons sessions lindsey always insisted on playing as a nazi ghost which is not how you're gonna make real life friends lindsey be a nice elf or a wizard she's a fucking edge queen she can't she's got to be a nazi ghost so can you just like choose whatever you want i thought i have is it not like Monopoly? I have literally no idea. I couldn't know less about Dungeons and Dragons if I physically tried. No, I think you can choose your character and then you play that character every time.

I think, I don't know. Never mind. Let's not go. Let's not open this door. Oh, it's already wide open. It's too late now. We need Spencer. We need Spencer from...

Spencer, I love you. Come back. Harman Quest to explain it to us. So if you haven't listened to us on Harmontown, Harmontown obviously doesn't exist anymore, but I'm pretty sure you can listen to the back catalogue. We were on there. We didn't talk about Dungeons and Dragons,

but maybe we should have. Now Lindsay claims that none of this was true, that this idea came from a drawing that she had done of a character that she called Nightmare Nazi. So she's basically saying, I was never a Nazii ghost i just drew this thing called nightmare yeah she says everybody's getting it from people are conflating memories is what she's saying like it fucking matters lindsey it's just i think you're splitting hairs here and she also claims which i think this next bit is quite interesting she also

claims that her political alignments never caused any issues for her at school at all and that her peers just accepted it as part of who she was, which I find incredibly hard to believe. No one, no one, nowhere is going to be like, oh, you're a Nazi. That's cool. Never mind. Would you like my Play-Doh?

I just don't believe it at all i just don't believe it at all i don't believe it at all and like fuck off like teenagers or children in general are not known for just accepting people as who they are let alone if who you are is a nazi i just don't believe that for a second and lindsey it's just more like sort of evidence of lindsey lying about how okay everything was when it probably definitely wasn't okay. And it's the same thing. It's a defense mechanism as well. She's like, everyone hates me.

So I'm going to say it's because they hate me. They hate me because of my political views and not because I'm fucking weird. Even when Lindsay made it to university, she didn't keep her views to herself. In fact, she proudly announced that she was a national socialist who didn't believe in democracy in a political science class. Chill. Literally, she's just living for the fucking applause, isn't she? She's literally, I'm going to make everyone in this room feel as uncomfortable as humanly possible.

I think it's exactly what you just said, though. It is the idea of, let me self-isolate before people do it to me. If I stand up in political classes and tell everybody that i'm a nazi i don't agree with democracy which at university come on like that's not going to go down well with your peers i'm guessing but that way you have a very easy reason for why people hate you and don't want to spend time with you and you can explain it away that way when she was in university she was also called into a meeting by a member of the faculty who asked her if she was a holocaust denier she said that she was so

caught off guard by the question that she didn't give an answer lindsey claims that this meeting was more to do with the professor being concerned for her safety than it was to do about him calling her out and challenging her beliefs yeah fucking right l right, Lindsay. Come on. She's very much living in a fantasy world. So even though obviously the interview in that podcast is fascinating to listen to and so important, she just lies about everything. Like you can't believe the things that she's saying. And so I think we can safely come to the conclusion that although she talks like nothing at school or university affected her, it's safe to say that Lindsay was quite unhappy indeed. Once she graduated university, Lindsay didn't get a job.

She lived with her parents, working on her writing and doing not much else. She would stay on the internet all night. It was pretty normal for her to go to sleep at 10am and wake up at 3pm and then do it all over again. That makes me feel so unwell. I hate it. That's so bad for you. Eventually, Lindsay's online searches for online friends led her to the Columbiners,

who are a community of people who celebrate and even idolise the two school shooters Eric Harris and Dylan Claibault. Fuck off. Like, seriously. It's like a whole thing. These people need to fucking get to fuck like that is just the most deviant thing i don't know i know we talk about a lot of fucked up things on this but like it happened fucking decades ago these people probably weren't even alive then and you're

romanticizing the idea of these fucking wanker piece of shit school shooters. Get a job. Get a life. It's time to move on. That makes me feel so unwell. I hate it. And like, quite obviously, I don't really feel like I need to explain this, but the Columbiners are, of course, on Tumblr. So weird, man. Basically, the Tumblr Columbiner community tends to be teenage-ish girls

writing love letters to the shooters. The same thing happened after Dylan Roof went on his rampage. Girls on Tumblr would talk about how misunderstood Roof was and how they could love that racism right out of him. To this day, Lindsay still supports the actions of the Columbine shooters. Her thoughts on this really give you a window into just how extreme her views are and how unapologetic she is about them. When discussing how she feels about

the victims of mass shootings she says this is a direct quote she's talking about victims here people who get shot in these circumstances she says quote what do they really have to contribute other than equally unimpressive children she's a delight isn't she yeah yeah she's uh she's a keeper lindsey engaged with the columbine community the only way she knew how. By making memes. Her most successful was a copy of a meme she had found on a blog called Just Girly Things. And this meme said, I can't live without my friends. Lindsay put that quote over an image of the Columbine shooters taken after they had killed themselves.

I fucking hate that. I hate it. Yeah, it's fucking repulsive. But not for Lindsay. She posted this meme, which she was very proud of, on her own blog with the hashtag Columbine. And Lindsay's blog, by the way, was called Cock Swastika. I do not know if it is still out there i have absolutely sullied my google search history and yours runters um by trying to find it and i have failed uh don't try and find it like i don't know man like i just cock swastika fuck's sake yeah don't don't try find it but if

someone wants to draw one and send it to us uh i would find that entertaining probably when i was trying to find it there was loads of articles about the new slack logo and it's like is anyone going to talk about how the slack app has changed their logos to a cockswastika oh my god what i need to look at this i used to use slack all the time it just used to be like a fucking multi-colored hashtag what is it now it's a cockswastika okay i'm gonna look at this I need to see this oh but maybe they changed it back now that like just search slack cockswastika it does look like a cockswastika oh my god that's it you don't need to sully your own personal google history you can now just search what I just did which is new slack logo and And you can have a look because that's what that is.

Fuck me. Okay. Wow. Jesus. I wonder how much they spend on marketing every single damn year. Can you imagine being that designer and be like, this is it. I finally fucking locked in the Slack account. Amazing.

This is my masterpiece. And nobody notices. It's a fucking cock swastika until it's all over the internet. The thing is, if you hadn't told me, I wouldn't see that. It's like the Rauschbein test. It's like, what do you see? It's a cockswastika. Oh my God. Anyway.

Oh, oh, oh, oh. Should we take a break? Should we be real life podcasters and take a break? That's exactly what we should do. You do it. Go. We'll be right back after these messages. What's happening, spooky bitches?

Do you know what Patreon actually is? Because you might have heard us talk about it, but maybe you're not completely sure. Well, it's a membership platform that allows us at red handed run a subscription service for you as most of you know last year we both went full time and we work really hard on the research for every episode we really care about what we do and we bloody love it we also love you guys so if you love red handed and you want to help support the show and keep it going you should check out our patreon if everyone listening right now pledged just two dollars each a month oh that's 50 cents or 40p an episode it would be completely life-changing and don't worry there's a lot more to our patreon

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Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party, so. Yeah, that's what's up. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment, charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution. I was f***ed up and I hit rock bottom, but I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry.

Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real. From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is The Rise and Fall of Diddy. Listen to The Rise and Fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery Plus. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made, a seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death.

The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal

quest to find the woman who saved my mom's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now, exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life.

I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me. And it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding. And this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha

exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Welcome back. Real life big baller podcasters now, guys. We've got breaks in the show. It's only taken us almost three years and lots of you tweeting at us about it. So at this stage in our story, Lindsay is 23 years old and her Slavaros heartbreak was about to be over because her columbine meme caught the attention of a young man living in halifax nova scotia canada called james gamble james was 22 and he lived with his parents didn't have a job and just like lindsey

he was obsessed with columbine he reached out to lindsey and the two started speaking first on Tumblr and then on Facebook Messenger. They never exchanged phone numbers. That's a fucking red flag right there, mate. Don't take that. In it. Don't. In it. Let's just keep chatting on Facebook Messenger.

No. So anyway. Though my new thing is to not give people my number on dating apps and just be like, let's message on Instagram. And then you can stalk their Instagrams and then oh that's smart I was talking to a guy the other day and I was like oh this is I hate like can we just move on to whatsapp gave him my number and he was like no and then continued to like message me on him I was like well you're a psychopath take him to Instagram thank you take him to Instagram and then you can maybe Instagram is you're very smart and

then they don't have my number so when it goes horribly wrong it's inevitably will, they can't stalk me. They can't stalk you and you can just block them. Well done. Game over. You're welcome everybody. Happy Valentine's Day. So their entire relationship was over the very worst messaging platform

of all and it consisted of 1200 pages of text on Facebook Messenger. messenger fucking hell it's not huge it's not like michelle carter and comrade i hate it oh shit i refuse to even have it on my phone so guys yeah if you want to get in touch with us please don't message us on there do not message us on facebook messenger we will not see it apart from you jemma you can do it i don't have the app we won't see it we won't see it exactly if you really want Gemma, you can do it. I don't have the app. We won't see it. We won't see it. Exactly. If you really want to get in touch with us,

we're on all the social medias at Red Handed The Pod, or you can email us at... What is it? Don't give them the email. No. Ding! Beep! If you try hard enough, you can find it.

It's not very difficult to find, guys. Oh my god. So when James and Lindsay sort of hit it off and they're having this online sort of world win romance they start off talking about creative writing then moved on to their mutual depression lindsey told james about intentionally giving herself alcohol poisoning and soon they realized that they shared a lot more of the same views of the world james became a lot more interested in nazism after lindsey introduced him to their black metal scene.

They talked about fashion a lot and how they both liked to wear clothes that normal people feel uncomfortable in. They both liked to dress like school shooters. And they had a very odd discussion about hanging out together in a public place, dressed the same, and watching all the sheeple, as they called them,

be afraid that there were two of them. And then James Gamble turned the conversation to the pair orchestrating a mass shooting all of their own. It's very difficult to know who is radicalising who in this situation. It seems pretty straightforward to assume that Lindsay was preying on a vulnerable, depressed young man, and maybe she was. But it is James who's pushing this mass shooting agenda quite hard, and he is doing it more than her.

Like, for sure, she is, like, swaying him more towards Nazism. But he seems bang on the mass shooting. She opens his mind, if that's not the right phrase, but you know what I mean. She opens the door to him becoming into Nazism, but then he opens the door to the violence that he wants to pursue with that ideology. Exactly. James had two guns, or rather his dad did, and he asked Lindsay which one she wanted to use,

and she said, I really have no idea. Like, she has no experience of firearms at all, and she just tells him that. James knew exactly what he was doing with guns and it does seem like he kept bringing the conversation back to mass shooting so james asked lindsey this is uh this is taken from one of their facebook messenger chats saying and you feel like when the moment actually calls for it you could actually shoot people and lindsey replied yes sir so perhaps like trying to pinpoint a ringleader is totally pointless James and Lindsay tried to concoct the perfect mass shooting they thought

about multiple locations like schools and hospitals and I feel like you're right trying to identify who's sort of the ringleader who sort of radicalizes who is almost a bit pointless because I kind of feel like this James Gamble character, he could have fallen into anything else. He could have become radicalized by something else. That violent streak that he wanted to pursue seems to have already been pre-existing or very easily dug out of him. I agree.

I think he wanted to do a mass shooting. She gave him the ideology. Exactly. She gave him the reason and the the you know like star to fucking hitch his murder wagon too that's it but despite james's ideas that he was sort of punting at lindsey she didn't really go for any of these because she thought that killing unwell people like shooting up a hospital was pointless and the score shooting would send the wrong message what's the right message, Linz?

Exactly. I don't know. This is her thinking. We're not 100% sure what she means by it. She thinks it's going to send the wrong message if they go shoot up a school. So the pair eventually decided on a mall. They wanted to make a totally unoriginal commentary on the capitalist consumer drones that we all are. Whilst, of course, wearing their clothes

that they had bought on the high street. Probably sucking on a fucking starbucks on the way yeah exactly like did you weave your trousers yourself no you didn't like you bought them from a shop god's sake i hate it man so as james spoke about violence more and more lindsey became more and more attracted to him they started exchanging sex and nudes and agreed to lose their virginity to each other. The romantic element of their relationship is best described here. Lindsay, quote, It feels like I've been dead for years and then suddenly came back to life and I actually feel things and it's like, whoa.

James, quote, It's such a special feeling, isn't it? Knowing that there's somebody out there who feels just like you do they're like writing the fucking lyrics to a indie pop band that is going nowhere fast like I don't know I was just thinking of like Evanescence when they were saying but I don't want to mar their good name with this bullshit but there are definitely a lot of feelings and hormones flying around, safe to say. Oh, yeah. They're just, you know, they're just flinging it about,

flinging their feelings all over Facebook Messenger. And the dark romance took an even darker and more Columbine-y turn. The both of them were so obsessed by the massacre that they started to believe or say they believed that Eric Harris and Dylan Claybold had taken over their bodies and that dark supernatural forces had brought them together. One of the messages from Lindsay read, Maybe Eric and Dylan have somehow become us, become part of our minds. We both feel like we died a long time ago. Maybe it's because we've taken on the minds of these actual dead people and that marks the time we both died. I don't know what to do

with you, Lindsay, honestly. No. So let's just keep pressing on. Just seven weeks after their first interaction, Lindsay Savanarath would be on a plane going to meet James Gamble in real life and this was their plan. How are you getting on a plane when you don't even have someone's phone number? It's true love Hannah. All you need when you have true love is Facebook Messenger and memes and Tumblr. So this is the plan. Lindsay was supposed to fly to Halifax because it would be much easier to get her into Canada than it would to get James into the US with two guns. Why he was so attached to those particular firearms, I am really not sure.

In preparation for Lindsay's arrival, James would shoot both of his parents so that Lindsay could stay at his house, which seems quite extreme. Yeah, can't you just fucking ask for a sleepover? I'm going to kill you, mum and dad. Yeah, he's 22, he's not 12. And because James Gamble would be quite busy killing his mum and dad. Yeah, he's 22, he's not 12. And because James Gamble would be quite busy killing his mum and dad, James enlisted his mate Randall Shepard to pick Lindsay up from the airport. Randall knew all about the plan and he'd even agreed to supply Molotov cocktails

to the murderous couple. But Randall wanted no part in the actual shooting, despite James Gamble begging him to join the plot. They also had copious interactions via Facebook Messenger, one of which included this plea from James Gamble begging him to join the plot. They also had copious interactions via Facebook Messenger, one of which included this plea from James Gamble. He said, Is there anything I can say to make you join my plan? But Randall Shepard wouldn't budge. He said,

Sorry, James. The answer is no. If I had more time to mentally prepare myself, perhaps, but I'm going to die. I'm not going to hurt. Randall was suicidal, so James agreed to shoot him dead. It's unclear when James was actually planning on doing that, because in some of the stuff you read,

it sounds like he'll kill him after the massacre, but he's also planning on killing himself after doing that, so it seems very strange. It's not very well thought out, I don't know. Maybe he's going to do it after the airport pickup. No one wants to do airport runs. So maybe it's just like do that and then fair's fair i'll give you what you want yeah so then the plan was that james and lindsey would lose their virginity to each other and go to sleep the next day they would take the two guns that james had thought so highly of and take themselves off to the halifax mall where they would open fire on the people sitting in the

food court james wanted to target middle-aged Christian women with children. Lindsay wanted to shoot anyone who looked, quote, dysgenic. And that basically means, like, anybody who looks like they might pass on undesirable traits to the next generation. So this is a very forceful way of doing, quote-unquote, selective breeding. Or not even that, like a, quote-unquote, survival of not even that like a quote-unquote survival of the fittest we're gonna shoot you all and let's see who survives and the plan was that after they had done all this they would save the last two bullets for themselves and then on the count of three they would kill themselves just like eric and dylan had done this plan was set to begin on

the first of february but lindsey didn't manage to get her plane ticket before it became extortionately expensive so James suggested that she fly down to meet him for Valentine's Day instead. They called their plan Die Untergang which is German for the downfall and they started to leave clues all over the internet as to their intent and this is a thing like actually overwhelming number of shooters or people who commit mass murder tell people before they do it. Like a lot of them do. I think perhaps these guys obviously told Randall Shepard, but they didn't really have anyone else to tell. So they tell the internet, which is basically their only other friend. And some of these clues included a picture of James and Lindsay together dressed in skull masks. This was photoshopped,

obviously, as they had never met, but the slogan across the bottom of the picture read, Valentine's Day, it's going down. Lindsay also dropped hints about their plan to her online friends, and James straight up told people what he was planning on doing. Yeah, subtlety is not James's strong point. So here is what actually happened. Before she left from Illinois, Lindsay

Savanarath wrote a suicide note on her Tumblr blog, which began with words to the effect of, you may already know about the mass shooting in Halifax. Some papers will tell you that this suicide note was scheduled to be published on Cox's Wastika after Lindsay had killed herself after the mall shooting. But that's not actually true. It was a draft. Lindsay had never finished the note or scheduled it to publish. Lindsay made it to the airport in Chicago with a one-way ticket to Halifax International Airport, a small bag and just $33 in cash. Can you do that? The only time I've ever flown anywhere with a one-way ticket was to Costa Rica and I had to buy a bus ticket proving that I was leaving the country within three months it seems maybe it's different between Canada and

the US but like it seems very strange that she was even allowed on the plane I know I don't know what the rules are between um between Canada and the US but yeah like I was at can't even remember some Asian country maybe Vietnam and they were like you have to prove that you're leaving the country I don't know I don't know maybe here they're just more trusting lindsey made it onto the plane with no issue on the 13th of february 2015 and she slept most of the way and because she'd spent all her time sleeping she didn't come up with a decent cover story for border control in canada she had absolutely no way of explaining her one-way ticket and she also didn't fill out her immigration form that's why you gotta sleep to sleep at night, Lindsay.

You've got to be awake during the day to come up with fucking cover stories. Get your shit together. Fucking hell. And whilst Lindsay was asleep in the air on her way to lose her virginity and kill innocent people, Crime Stoppers received a call. I love it when this happens. I know. Like, I just don't think anyone actually does it, but they do. You know they're super excited when it does as well.

Oh, yeah. The anonymous caller told the agency that a young Asian woman called Lindsay S, who was planning a mass shooting, would be landing in Halifax Airport in a few hours. The caller knew many details about the plan, including the location, where Lindsay was flying from, and that Randall Shepard would be picking her up from the airport. So when Lindsay landed in Nova Scotia, they were ready for her. She was apprehended by border control and asked why she only had a one-way ticket and what she was planning to do with her time in Canada. Lindsay replied that she was there to spend a memorable Valentine's

Day with her boyfriend and added in later interviews that the woman who had interviewed her was horrible. And she scoffs at the question asking quote lady do you really not know what people do on valentine's day has it been that long i don't want to sound horrible here but like lindsay you're just a virgin who can't drive like what you haven't had sex either she's an edge queen she's an edge queen that is the edge queen response isn't it fuck it oh and i also don't know does she even know do we even know she's sex obviously lady yeah exactly shut up but the fact is that lindsey really doesn't seem to have thought this whole plan through totally and her suicide note was only drafted not scheduled so this led some people

to argue that she probably really had no intention of going through with the plot at all but it's the comments she makes when talking about her crimes that show her total lack of remorse and contempt for everyone around her that makes her so completely unlikable i think that's the key thing like she just has no redeeming qualities she's not remorseful she doesn't care she hates everyone she's rude like you just don't even you're not rooting for her no do you mean and you're not rooting for her obviously no one's rooting for her to go through with the mass shooting you're not rooting for her to like realize the error of her ways or there's like some shred of good in her and vulnerability

and that you just want her to like escape this situation she's just a dick so border control searched the few belongings that lindsey had brought with her and they found a hat with a swastika on it every valentine's day essential for packing for your romantic getaways ladies uh got the lingerie got your lovely silk teddy have you got your hat with swastika on it that is the question have you got your cock swastika yeah a hat with a cocks sticker on it someone gets slack on the phone now let's not let's sell it as our own merch and not let them in on it and obviously when the canadian border control people found this that was enough for them

and lindsey was arrested on the spot for issuing threats. She remembers thinking that because she hadn't actually uttered any threats, that she was going to get away with the whole thing. She had no idea that the police already knew her entire plan. She also didn't know that Randall Shepard had also been arrested as he waited for her in the car outside. Lindsay was taken in for questioning. To almost every question that the police asked her, Lindsay said, I don't know, ask James. Halfway through what must have been a very frustrating interview for officers involved, Lindsay was also told that they couldn't ask James because James Gamble had just blown his head off. Lindsay had been told by a

lawyer that the police would lie to her to get her to confess and that she shouldn't believe a word they told her. And if you are a full-time, fully-fledged spooky bitch, you will already know that that is certainly true in the United States. And as I learned this week, it's true in Canada as well. They can't do it in the UK because of Guilford 4, the Birmingham 6 and the Maguire 7. But they can in the United States and Canada. So in order to get a suspect to confess, Canadian police are allowed to say that they have a confession from another suspect, even if they don't.

They can say that they have evidence that they don't have and they can also lie about the legal consequences of the crime in question. So Lindsay didn't believe the police, but she should have. James Gamble had shot himself as the police surrounded his house after they received the Crimestoppers tip. He had not shot his parents as originally planned, and obviously Lindsay never made it to his house. Once Lindsay was imprisoned, she was moved into administrative segregation, which is essentially solitary confinement, and there she slept again. She remained in Ad Seg for several weeks, not once showing any sign of remorse for her plan to commit mass murder. And it was from jail that Jordan Bonaparte conducted his telephone interviews with Lindsay, without which, as we said earlier, this episode

would not be possible. So definitely just another plug. Go listen to the Nighttime podcast. Go listen to his seven part series on this case. And if you do, you will be struck like we were. Probably, hopefully, you'll be struck by it. By just how little Lindsay seemingly cares. She is staunch in her beliefs. You can only hear her smile really as she talks about her cock swastika blog.

But the only time she sounds even a little bit upset is when she talks about James Gamble's death. She tells Jordan, the host of this podcast, that she wishes her and James had gone through other options, other plans in the event that one of them had been apprehended. She wishes she could have told him not to panic, and she wishes she could have told him that she loved him. Eventually, Lindsay was charged with, and pled guilty to, conspiracy to commit murder.

She never went to trial, which is probably why information on this case is quite hard to find. If you Google, for example, Valentine's Day massacre, Al Capone is basically the only thing that comes up. Lindsay Savanarath's case went straight to sentencing and her attorney felt confident that she would receive 14 to 16 years for her poorly planned mass murder attempt. But they were wrong. Lindsay got a life sentence,

and she'll serve a minimum of 10 years before she will be eligible for parole, so that's 2025. Randall Shepard was also convicted of conspiracy to commit murder, but for his part in the scheme, he only received a 10-year sentence. Lindsay has appealed her sentencing arguing that it's unreasonably long and that what she did wasn't that different to what Randall did. But the major difference is, I think, Randall showed remorse. And this is the difficult thing that we have to deal with when dealing with crimes that didn't actually happen.

We saw it with the cannibal cop case a while ago. The line between fantasy and conspiracy is a very tricky one to draw. And we're not even sure who the ringleader was because James Gamble is dead and we can't ask him. Lindsay explained their partnership using the Eastern philosophical concept of yin and yang, which might seem like an odd choice for a Nazi, but here we are. But she explains the yang energy as being perceived as more forceful than yin, but they are equal. So according to her, James had just as much a part to play as she did. And if we cast our minds back together to the cannibal cop episode, we'll already know that what the law needs to draw the line between fantasy and conspiracy

is an action, a physical movement toward the crime. And both Lindsay and Randall had done that. Lindsay had got on a plane and Randall had got in his car, driven to the airport and waited to pick up Lindsay. Both of them had put the first steps of the plan in motion. So who is to say how far they would have gone if they hadn't been stopped? Crown Prosecutor Tim O'Leary told the court at Lindsay's appeal hearing that her sentence was not excessively harsh. Lindsay's lawyer, Luke Craggs, argued that there were almost no actual concrete logistics to Lindsay and James's plan. He told reporters that the actual risk of

completion was very low and that the length of sentence should reflect how real the risk really was. But he doesn't have much to work with i imagine that lindsey is a nightmare client but he did his best but he failed also i do query his point that there were very few logistics in this like they had the guns she was in canada like all they had to do was go to the mall yeah i think his point is like i think it's the lack of contingency plans that he's sort of talking about. But I don't know, did Columbine have a contingency? I don't think teenage shooters probably do. So the judge decided that Randall and Savonarath simply couldn't be compared

and that the disparity between their sentences was totally justifiable. There is no clearer example of the difference between Randall and Lindsay, but in their own words. At his sentencing, Randall said that he had no defense, that he had no right to ask for forgiveness, but he would try anyway. He said, quote, I am deeply sorry that this has happened. I honestly wish that James were here so that he could speak for himself, but obviously that's not the case. At Lindsay's sentencing, she declined to address the court. But here is her closing remark from her interview with Jordan Bonaparte.

Quote, I am not the one who is the greatest danger to the public. The people have more to fear from their own governments, from their own leaders, than they do from all the mass killers in the world. You are awarded one yike, Lindsay. Like, that's all I have for you. I genuinely have nothing else to say.

Like, I'm lost for words. I mean, it is remarkable the level of, like, stick-witheredness that she has. She never sort of even looks mildly, even now, like she has remorse for this. Does she realize just because she's up for parole in five years, without remorse, without showing remorse, she is going to be in there for a very, very long time? What's she doing? We might have run out of steam to talk about her,

but Lindsay has plenty to say. She's still writing in prison. She no longer has access to her Google Drive, so she can't finish off If a Skull Could Blush. But she has completed a new novel, is called grit and glory and it follows a beauty blogger who falls in love with a hacker online and then they carry out murders together it honestly and also glory and grit are the names of the people in it glory is the blogger and grit is the hacker i was gonna be like what's that got to do with anything it should have been like i don't know eyeliner and hacking i don't know like what's grit and glory got to do no it's it's just it's literally a fantasized romanticized version of her relationship with james gamble that's literally

all it is so lindsey savonarath is in prison but lots of nazis are not alexander slavaros disappeared some years ago and ironmarch.org was taken down in 2017. It's been replaced with Fascist Forge, which serves a similar purpose and has an archive of Slavaros's writings. It is a pretty difficult website to negotiate, and maybe that problem solves itself when you pass the membership test, which includes 25 open-ended essay format questions, which are graded by a moderator. If you fail the test, they are nice enough to let you know where you went wrong and you can try again, but you have to wait seven days before you can do that. They claim that all of the answers to the test can be found in their learning centre, which I had

difficulty finding, amongst the phrases esoteric hitlerism terror wave italian folkloric fascism and germanic visigoth i don't know what any of those things mean wow which one's your favorite out of that just to say not as an ideology i think esoteric hitlerism just sort of like rolls i do i like esoteric hitlerism and also germanic visio goth visi goth whatever that means that's great i know i don't know me these fucking nazi nerds they are such wankers aren't they wow oh god i literally i probably spent about two hours on fascist Forge, and I felt absolutely no closer to understanding who they are and what they want.

But that's what they want. They don't want you to understand. They just want the people like them to understand. So I think it's a good thing. And we wanted to find a list of basic beliefs, but we couldn't really find it. But they do direct you to another website dedicated to James Mason's book Siege and as Hannah

said earlier in the episode we haven't linked this website below because we think it just feels a little bit irresponsible but here is an extract which we think gives a fairly accurate outline of what the members of fascist forge are are really after. They claim to have created, quote, a culture of constant and endless upward mobility, a culture of divine ascension, a culture of being free of all limitations that would otherwise halt our creative endeavors. For this is the kingdom of heaven on earth,

as our Israelite precursors. We have done it against all odds. and if that isn't enough to ruin your valentine's day then uh you've got problems yeah you pervert have a great valentine's day exactly you can follow us on the social medias at red handed the pod you can hop over to our facebook group or to our patreon we're doing so many more things with Patreon than we used to be, so have a look at it at patreon.com forward slash redhanded. And we've got some people who have already done it, and here are their names.

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o'brien emma o'brien ace tigers stiggers uh zoe greenway hayley peace and georgia schloss thank you guys so much and some people like i've missed my shout out on the facebook group no you haven't we've just probably mispronounced it so horribly. You think that we haven't said your name. We probably have said your name. We are very careful. So just go back to all of our episodes and have a re-listen. And I'm sure you'll find it.

So yeah, have fun. Other than that, you can now hop over, if you're a $5 and up patron, to our Under the Duvet, which is our brand new post-show show uh where we're going to talk about some stuff so we'll see you over there bye bye you don't believe in ghosts i get it lots of people don't. I didn't either, until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most

haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudian Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come.

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