RedHanded - Episode 137 - "Nirbhaya": Jyoti Singh & The Delhi Rape Case

Episode Date: March 5, 2020

Nirbhaya means "the fearless one", and it was the name given by the Indian media to a 23 year old woman - Jyoti Singh - after she was brutally gang raped on a bus by 6 men.  Jyoti’s rape and murder was a watershed moment in India, it made grisly headlines across the world, and brought tens of thousands of protesters onto the streets of Delhi to demand a change in how the nation deals with violence against women and girls. This horrific attack still continues to dominate the news as the four remaining convicted men are set to be hanged any day now... Help support the show and get bonus content at: Patreon.com/redhanded References: Vimeo link for India's Daughter: https://vimeo.com/ondemand/indiasdaughter  https://hyperallergic.com/492341/the-irresponsible-failure-of-a-netflix-series-on-the-2012-delhi-gang-rape-investigation/ https://hyperallergic.com/169022/indias-newest-superhero-is-a-rape-victim/ http://www.priyashakti.com/ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-25855719 https://www.voanews.com/east-asia-pacific/indias-tribal-councils-under-fire-after-gang-rape https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/latest-gang-rape-of-young-woman-in-india-highlights-vigilante-role-of-tribal-village-elders/2014/01/24/80abe648-84ef-11e3-a273-6ffd9cf9f4ba_story.html https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/worst-countries-for-women?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1 https://poll2018.trust.org/ https://www.bellesa.co/collective/article?id=277/the-madonna-whore-complex-its-more-common-than-you-think- https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/delhi/nirbhaya-case-convicts-move-court-seeking-stay-on-execution/articleshow/74416841.cms https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/01/07/four-men-convicted-nirbhaya-gang-rape-delhi-bus-hanged-month/   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Saruti.

I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed. I don't think we've got any announcements to make apart from perhaps $5 patrons. Definitely going to want to hang out and listen to the Undered. I don't think we've got any announcements to make apart from perhaps $5 patrons. Definitely going to want to hang out and listen to the Under the Duvet after this because this is a miserable case and that will make you feel a little bit less sad.

So if you are listening to this episode in a timely manner when it comes out, this Sunday, the 8th of March 2020 is International Women's Day. And while Hannah and I discussed a multitude of stories that we could have covered to mark this event, we chose this case. And we chose it because there is right now, currently, an upheaval going on around the world on the rights of women.

More and more we're challenging everything, from traditional gender roles to demanding that the most powerful institutions take accountability. And this case today reflects this movement in a truly all-encompassing way. Personally for me, this case has been incredibly difficult to research. As a woman of Indian heritage who was born in India and could well have grown up there, to see what became of an intelligent, ambitious young woman who simply dared to live her life in the most ordinary way, who was also the exact same age as me, was hard to stomach. So while, as we said, this isn't going to be an easy listen today,

stick with us, because it's important. We are, of course, talking about the 2012 Delhi gang rape case, also named the Nirbhaya case. In India, the law forbids the publishing of a rape victim's name. Nirbhaya was the name that the Indian media gave to the victim, Jyothi Singh. Nirbhaya means fearless. And just so everyone knows, we can use Jyothi's real name now because her parents wanted her name to be known.

Not only did this case feel incredibly important for us to cover this week because it's International Women's Day but also because on the 7th of January this year four of the men convicted of the crime were issued death warrants and with information correct as of the day we're recording this all four are set to be executed on the 3rd of March 2020 and they're to be hanged all together at 6am at the Gallo site in Delhi's Tihar jail. I feel like that's really famous. Like, why do I know that name? I think it's quite like an infamous prison. I believe it's the biggest prison in Delhi.

So that's the capital city of India. So maybe you've read about cases that also happen there. I feel like I've specifically heard about a mass hanging there, I think. Oh, interesting. It must have been before independence then. Maybe, maybe. Yeah, to put this into context, India got independence from the United Kingdom. And while there were plenty of executions in the early days,

there have been no mass executions like the one that's going to happen this week. And actually, while India still puts many people on death row, in the last 15 years, only five official executions have been carried out. Prior to this, the last one was in 2015. And according to IPS officer and retired Inspector General of Police for Uttar Pradesh, a state in India, quote, If this is done, if all four men are hanged

at the gallows together, it will be a new entry in the annals of criminal punishment in India. For many of you who know this case, you may be thinking, damn right, hang them. And while I certainly understand your sentiment, my surprise at the sentences wasn't because the crime wasn't brutal. It truly is. It's because rape in India, violence against women and girls in India, is not a rare thing. Why did this case land these rapists on death row? Why did this case strike so hard in India, where still to many having been raped is seen as a shameful thing. To understand this, let's start at the beginning. In 2012, Jyothi Singh was a 23-year-old physiotherapy student in Delhi. She was bright and dedicated with huge dreams. Jyothi was born into a poor family.

Her father Badri was a manual labourer and her mother Asha was a housewife. But they wanted the very best for their daughter. These days in India, of course, if you're from a middle-class city family, as a girl, you would certainly pursue an education. But university or higher studies is expensive and not necessarily prioritised for women and girls from poorer backgrounds. It may be seen often as a simpler and easier option for them to find a husband and get married. But Jyoti wanted something different. She told her parents whatever money they had saved for her wedding, as all Indian families would start to do the day a girl is born,

to spend that instead on her education. And we'd really recommend watching the documentary about this case, which is called India's Daughter. It's really fantastic. But also be prepared to like possibly have to watch it twice because the first time I think both of us watched it was just like inconsolable sobbing and you can't really take any of it in. No, I didn't write a single word of notes down the first time I watched it. I just couldn't even see the screen properly for my tears. So round two, I now then understood a bit more and now I can actually talk about this case without my voice just crumpling up.

Asha and Badri, Jyoti's parents, are featured extensively in this documentary and a lot of the information for today's episode with regards to them and who Jyoti was comes directly from that film. When Jyoti asked her parents to please find a way for her to go to university, they agreed. They even sold what land they had. Again, in India, this kind of inherited

ancestral land is very important to people. It would form like the status level of your sons and what they would inherit or, you know, go some way towards a dowry if you were to get your daughter married. It would generally not be sold easily. Badri says in the documentary how his brothers were not happy at all, asking him, quote, why would you sell all the land for a girl to be educated? The feeling is, if it's a girl, she's going to get married one day and she's going to have kids.

She'll stay home obviously after that. So what's the point in her studying when she'll not even be able to work as long as a man can? When resources are scarce, where's the return on that investment? But Badri and Asha stood firm and they sold everything to pay for Jyothi's university fees. Jyothi excelled at school and even though her parents had given her all that they could to pay for her place, it wasn't enough. She still had to work to manage staying in education. So she worked nights at an international call centre.

And for Jyothi this was great. She already spoke good English, but this could help her improve it. And also the pay was decent, and it meant that during the day she could still go to classes. The only problem was that this job left her very little time for sleep. According to her friends, Jyothi slept about three to four hours a night. And they found that out when they asked her how she was managing to study and work at the same time.

And Jyothi would tell them, I can and I must. She was driven by something more than just ambition for herself. She was going to save her family. She would tell her mum and dad all the time, once I have a job, you won't ever have to worry anymore. This is usually the job of male children in a family in India. But Jyothi was going to take on this role. And in 2012, Jyothi was delighted to find out that she had got an internship.

This was the start of her new life. After the internship, she was almost guaranteed a job. It was going to mean more hard work, but she was ready. A few days before the internship was scheduled to start, Jyothi decided that she wanted one last evening out before she'd be back to back with work. So when her friend called her and asked her if she wanted to go to the cinema, she couldn't say no. She told her parents she'd be back in a few hours

and left the house at around 5pm. Jyoti and her friend Awinda Pandey went to go and watch The Life of Pi at a cinema in Delhi. After the show finished, the friends got on a bus to head home. It was 8.30pm. There were six other men on that bus, head home. It was 8.30pm. There were six other men on that bus, including the one who was driving. The men watched the pair menacingly.

Suddenly, one of them stood up and confronted Awindra. The man asked him what he was doing out so late with a girl. Awindra told him that it was none of his business, and that was it. The man slapped him, and the others jumped in. They beat Awindra told him that it was none of his business, and that was it. The man slapped him, and the others jumped in. They beat Awindra badly, and after they were done, he hid between some chairs. The men then turned on Jyothi. They dragged her, kicking and screaming to the back of the bus.

The lights on the bus were turned off, and the men took it in turns, raping her. Jyothi screamed and screamed, but the ringleader shouted at the driver to just keep driving and not to stop the bus were turned off and the men took it in turns, raping her. Jyothi screamed and screamed, but the ringleader shouted at the driver to just keep driving and not to stop the bus. The bus wove erratically through the streets of South Delhi as Jyothi was beaten, raped, bitten and savaged. After they had each had a turn or more, they used a metal rod that they found on the bus and rammed it into Jyothi's vagina. They pulled it out. Then the ringleader forced his hand inside of her and pulled out her intestines. The attack lasted between 15 and 20 minutes. When they thought that Jyothi was dead, they dragged her to the door and threw her and Aundhra out of the

moving bus. They fell into a ditch on the side of the road. That night, a security guard happened to be in the area and heard a voice screaming for help. He looked into the dark ditch and saw the pair. They were covered in blood and completely naked. The men on the bus had stripped both Jyothi and Aundhra naked before hurling them from the bus. The security guard pulled them out and quickly a crowd of over 30 men gathered. So he yelled for someone to help him, but no one moved. So he ran to a nearby hotel and got water and bed sheets to cover them up until the ambulance could arrive. The security guard described Jyoti as looking like a cow that had just given birth to a calf.

And it took me a second when we were watching the documentary to understand what he meant by that. He doesn't elaborate, but the closest I can imagine is my grandparents used to have cows. And when I was a kid, I'd watch carvings. And I'm guessing that the security guard by this comment is referring to the fact that Jyoti's insides were hanging out of her. Eventually, the emergency services arrived and the broken pair were taken to the Sardafjung Hospital. While all of this horror was unraveling, Jyoti's parents were at home and they were worried.

It wasn't like Jyoti to not call them and let them know if she was running late. They had tried ringing her phone, but it was dead. And maybe to Western ears, the fact that a 23-year-old would need to check in with her parents so that they don't worry when she's gone to the cinema on a Sunday night, and it's probably at this point around about 11. That's not at all weird in India. That is very much the norm. And even if you're 23, but living with your parents in the UK, you'd get given a hard time for that, I think. Exactly. I think it's just I can totally imagine

people being like, why would they be worried at this point? But yeah. After a couple of hours of waiting, the call came. It was the hospital. When Jyothi had been admitted to hospital, she was bleeding heavily from her vagina. She was in agony and suffering from shock, but she was still managed to describe everything that had happened to her in clear detail to the attending doctors. And it's her determination again that's worth pointing out here. She's been the victim of a horrendous assault and the doctors would later say that they had no idea how she was even alive but she made sure that she told them everything she could.

And Jyoti was in a really bad way. She had been severely beaten and had bite marks all over her body, face and lips. The doctor who attended to Jyoti had been an emergency room doctor for 20 years. And she said that she had never seen anything like it before. Asha, Jyoti's mom, says in the documentary that the doctors told her, quote, the system by which the human body functions is gone. We do not even know which bits to join together. And the doctors gave a grim prognosis. They predicted that Jyothi wouldn't survive more than three days. Word of the attack spread quickly across Delhi. And the very next day, the protests began. Jawaharlal Nehru University in Delhi, which is one of the best universities in the country,

as it not only has an amazing faculty, but it's incredibly progressive, and they have a very powerful, very socially and politically driven student union. My cousin goes there, and it's like very few other universities in the country. And so the very next day, these students took to the streets and this sparked something huge. Suddenly, women and men from all walks of life were joining them. Small spontaneous demonstrations erupted into a full-blown thousand-strong rally outside of Parliament. And I genuinely do mean from all walks of life it wasn't just the students they started it but when you watch India's daughter they're like interviewing these women who are protesting and the like white text that comes up at the bottom is like her name

and then it's like housewife like she's just left her home probably all the stuff she normally does all day to come stand in the street this is not something usual in a country like India I thought um when watching the documentary I was I mean I love footage of a protest anyway but honestly like goosebumps of just how passionately people were taking to the streets over this like I mean quite rightly but I think it really is something quite special it is and I think as much as I cried because of what happened to Jyothi when I was watching it I cried just as hard at the scenes of the protests. And the protests are a very important part of the Nirabaya story

and it's at this point having mentioned that that I want to give a slight review of the Netflix show Delhi Crime. My mum watched this entire show. I slipped in and out of it, and then I did sit down to watch it properly again ahead of recording this. If you haven't seen it, I think it's available on, like, every Netflix. Like, I'm sure you can go find it. And it's a seven-part drama based on this story. And I have a slight issue with it.

I saw a lot of love being given to the show particularly in like the YouTube comments of news stories that I watched and just generally if you google it like people are just absolutely fucking loving this show but my problem with it is it comes across to me like a hyper politicized propaganda movie for the Delhi police and also like they could have tried harder with the name. I know, I know. Come on, guys. Is that the best you've got? Maybe, though, they didn't call it Nirbhaya because it wouldn't appeal then to a Western audience

because they'd be like, what the fuck is that? They're like, Delhi crime. They'll know what we're talking about. I don't know. But saying that, when I saw it, I did immediately know which case they were probably referring to. But yes, it just feels like fucking propaganda. And don't get me wrong, the Delhi police do catch the men. They do do that.

But the way in which the handling of the protests is shown in Delhi crime is not at all how it went down in reality. In the TV series, they make it seem like the police respected the rights of the protesters to be there, to be making their voices heard. There is an excellent review that has been done on this case. I will leave a link to it below and I'll label it so you guys can find it. I read it and I was like, this is exactly the problem with this docuseries or drama series or whatever. And there's literally a scene in it where the police, the protests are starting and the Delhi police look at each other

and they're like, well, they're just exercising their civil rights. Fuck off, did anybody say that? I do not believe it for a second. Because like Hannah said, go watch India's Daughter. Hell, just fucking Google Nirbhaya protests. The police brutality towards young people, women, girls is shocking. The police and the politicians wanted the protest shut down as quickly and as quietly as possible.

Didn't these stupid protesters realize that if they draw attention to how terribly violence against women is dealt with in India, it would give the nation a bad name on the world stage? And it's not just the brutality of the beatings. The police brought out the big guns very, very quickly. The protesters were targeted with water cannons, tear gas, and they have like bamboo canes that they were just going out and beating people with. Like, this is hardcore. And the important thing to note is also that the protests all started peacefully, but things escalated when the police showed aggression. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if the government had actually sent people into the

protests to cause disruption so that they could have had an excuse to come down hard. Some of you may or may not know, but India and Delhi specifically, is currently, as of March 2020, in the midst of protesting once again, due to the government's new scheme to strip thousands and thousands of Muslims of their citizenship. And once again, we are seeing them use this tactic to break up peaceful protests. But that is a story for another day. And once again, we are seeing them use this tactic to break up peaceful protests. But that is a story for another day. All I'll say is that for a country that was born out of peaceful civil disobedience,

those ideals are being challenged more and more daily. Against the backdrop of the growing protests, the Delhi police felt the pressure to catch the perpetrators. IPS Shaya Sharma, at the time Deputy Commissioner of the Police for the Southern District of Delhi, was put in charge of this investigation. And she's the one who is like the main character in Delhi crime, the female police officer in that drama series, is IPS Shaya Sharma.

She received a call at 2.10am on the night of the attack. Shaya headed straight to the hospital where she was shocked by the extent of Jyoti's injuries. And she knew straight away that this was going to be a tough case to close. The victims and the perpetrators were complete strangers. There was no link. Shia says in an interview that she gave with thelogicalindian.com, she felt in this case that she could not just delegate the work to teams because as a woman, she could feel the pain of the victim and her family.

The police were able to get a vague description of the bus as being a white school bus, but that didn't narrow it down too much. There were thousands of buses that it could have been. I also really enjoyed everybody's reactions to last week's episodes and white people carriers. I am so glad you clarified that because it didn't occur to me for a second that other countries don't just call it a people carrier. I mean, it's so stupid. But like also like figuring out lazy words in English is like my favorite game. Fireplace. Space., it's so stupid.

It's such a stupid language. So funny. But yeah, in this one, don't worry. We are just dealing with white school buses. No more white people carriers. And now every time I say that, I can only hear it in the way that all of our American friends heard it. The best was an ugly white people carrier.

To carry ugly white people. Only ugly white people allowed. I do white people only ugly white people allowed i do have a question about this bus though yeah so i know we sort of come on to later the the sort of gang of men on this bus use this bus for their nefarious purposes quite often but presumably it is a legitimate bus like jose just thinks she's getting on a normal bus the thing is in India like you have the the proper infrastructure you have the proper public transport infrastructure then you have like these autos you'll have taxis you'll have share autos you'll also have people just running private bus things where they've just got a minivan or a bus and they're just

driving around they'll stop and be like do you want a lift you'll pay them a ticket get on and there'll be other people on the bus so it won't feel like it's not hitchhiking and it's very much a part of like city life like it's not that weird it would have looked to them like it was totally yeah yeah and i'm not saying that like oh her fault for getting on not a real bus like i just was interested to like figure out how that works when the police went to check the cctv from the hotels that lined the very well lit road on which this horrific incident had occurred and where Jyoti has been found,

they saw the same white bus cross that particular route twice and in a short space of time. So the police put the word out and within 18 hours of the attack, they had a tip off. What I can say about the bus as well is it is um a tourist bus it's described as a private tourist bus so you have the sort of government buses that are running the proper like transport infrastructure and then you have companies just running private tourist buses and also what was interesting about this bus is it had tinted windows dark tinted windows and that's

illegal in delhi so that bus should have been stopped before and should have been checked what was going on in there because, yeah, like you said, it's a very well-lit street that this horrific incident happened on. If they hadn't had the tinted windows, people would have seen what was going on on the bus. So, yeah, very nefarious bus. So the tip-off came, and it was someone calling to say

that the bus that the police were looking for was parked near a temple in South Delhi's Ravidas Camp. Ravidas Camp is a slum and it sits side by side with the tree-lined borders of a very middle-class neighbourhood in Delhi. And this is very typical of the class divide in India and much like you would see in any major city there. Because despite the slum's geographical closeness with a very affluent neighbourhood, there is absolutely no integration. And it sort of serves to further compound the feeling of isolation that the urban poor feel.

Because they're looking right at like a really affluent part of town while they live in slums. And when the officers arrived at Ravidas camp, they saw the bus and they saw a man sat inside the bus. As soon as this man saw them, he jumped out and ran. But the officers caught him. His name was Ram Singh. And after he was arrested, he quickly confessed to what he'd done. And he also gave up the others. There were six in total. There was Ram Singh, the man in the bus. Mukesh Singh, Ram's brother. He was the one who had been working as the driver. Vinay Sharma, who worked as a gym assistant. Pawan Gupta, a fruit store seller. Akshay Thakur, he was like a guy who helped on the bus. He'd like clean things up and like sort of do odd jobs for them. And Akshay Tagore is actually quite interesting. When he was arrested, he cried

to the police saying that he had a wife and a baby and what would become of them now. And finally, there was also a juvenile involved. He was 17 years and six months old at the time of the attack. And to this day, we don't know his name. These men all lived in Ravadas camp, the slum in which the bus was found. They used this bus to earn a bit of money. So they're doing what you were saying, they were just doing like private bus lines where they're just like driving around seeing if people need lifts. Exactly. But they're also doing various things. Sometimes they pick people up and use the juvenile to trick them on board and then they would rob them. In fact, just two days before Jyoti was attacked, a man boarded the same bus and was mugged and thrown off. He reported it to the Delhi police, but nothing had been done.

The day of the attack, the men had all hung out together and they had been doing some serious drinking. They had some money, so they were going to go and party. They had planned to go to the Garstin-Bastian Road, or GB Road as it's commonly referred to, and have some fun. GB Road is the red light district of Delhi. It's made up of hundreds of enormous brothels, and according to the South China Morning Post, there are an estimated 5,000 sex workers trying to make a living there. On their night out was when they had spotted Jyoti and Awindra. According to Mukesh, the only one who was really interviewed in India's daughter,

they had taken the couple on board. And then it was his brother Ram and the other men who had raped Jyoti. When you watch the documentary, Mukesh insists in the interviews that all he did was drive the bus. He says he never touched Jyothi. The reports indicate something different, that the men were taking it in turns to drive the bus and taking it in turns to rape Jyothi, but he denies this. I also just think, like, if it's your brother who's the fucking ringleader, like, did you fuck just drive the bus?

Like, I just, I don't believe it for a second. Nor do I. And the other men all pretty much confessed straight away when the police questioned them. And dental impressions taken from the accused matched the bite marks that covered Jyothi's body. And of course, also, when the bus was examined, the poor cleanup job that the men had done hadn't really done much to remove signs of what had happened that night. The Delhi police using all this had caught the men within 24 hours of the attack and all of them were in custody within five days. Like we said, Mukesh Singh, the man who claimed to only have driven the bus,

is interviewed extensively in India's Daughter. And it's honestly chilling when you listen to him speak about this he talks about the incident as if he's being forced to like read out his weekly shopping list or something he looks and sounds completely indifferent there's not a shred of remorse or even like a look of emotion on him no not at all and he's just very like oh well like that's the way it is she deserved it so I'm like if you're telling me that that is your attitude you just didn't you weren't just driving the bus like if that you genuinely still think that and you have no remorse like obviously you raped her too this is the most shocking thing about it he's not even feigning remorse because i

genuinely think he doesn't fundamentally understand why what they did was wrong no he's just like why am i here? When they're giving these interviews in the documentary, they don't feel like they are vulnerable or exposed for saying the things that they're saying, even though we feel like it's absolutely abhorrent. This is exactly the point. He's not feigning remorse because the point that he's admitting to,

the reasons he's giving are his justifications for what they did. He doesn't think that he needs to show remorse in order to get away with what he's done or to, you know, show remorse and therefore lighten his sentence or anything. He's admitting to all of this and saying these are the reasons we did it because he thinks the justification

is what will lighten his sentence because he'll be like, well, people will just understand why we did it and then we'll get away with it. Like, it's such a backwards form of thinking that he has about this. And what's such a backwards form of thinking that he has about this. And what I would say in terms of like people agreeing with this, absolutely, when we go on to talk about what the lawyers think, like fucking hell, this stretches so far

and wide. What I would say the general mentality of people in the country would be, and let's leave alone the protesters because there were thousands of them and, know this took over India in terms of headlines and street exposure but like the average person sat at home no one is condoning rape no one is saying oh well you know whatever they all agree this is fucking horrendous but the feeling in the back of their minds would be this is what's out there these are the kind of men that are out there and you have to do everything you can as a woman to protect yourself, which is not cross the line, not leave the house. Stay inside.

Keep yourself safe. That's the mentality. Yeah. Make sure it's someone else and not you. Exactly. Exactly. So Mukesh in the documentary, he talks about his brother Ram Singh, the ringleader, and how he had been the one to confront Jyoti and her friend. Mukesh also claims that his brother Ram had raped and even killed before, but this time it wasn't his intent.

He questioned Jyoti and Awindra because he felt like he had the right to demand an explanation. What was this unmarried woman doing out with this man? According to Mukesh, Jyoti and Awindra's behavior gave them the right to do what they did. He says, quote, a decent girl wouldn't roam around at nine at night. She must have been out doing wrong things with this boy. It's about patriarchal power. How dare you as a woman think that you can do this? We'll show you. And because they had decided they were justified in what they were doing, when Jyothi fought back, this just made the men more angry. And according to her friend who survived, and the attackers themselves,

Jyothi fought like hell. And Mukesh said about this, he said, quote, When she was being raped, she shouldn't have fought back. She should have just been silent and allowed it. If she had, they would have just let her and the boy go afterwards. So again, it's her fault for refusing to take the punishment. And I think it's important to say, like, that's not a police interview. That's not a transcript.

That's him talking to a documentary filmmaker. Like, this isn't, like, taken from his initial interview when he was arrested. He's blatantly saying this in front of a female documentary maker. That's a very good point. This isn't in the heat of the moment in a room with a couple of male detectives interviewing him. He's had months and months and months to think about it. And this is still the reason that he's giving in front of a camera. And I think it's incredibly telling when we talk about sort of like a decent girl

wouldn't roam around at 9pm with a boy, with a boyfriend. They call her boyfriend all the time. It's kind of neither really here nor there. According to Awendra, they were just friends. But the point that Mukesh and Ram and the other men are saying and what he's alluding to in his interviews is the fact that as a girl in India, Jyothi would have been told from a young age that this isn't how decent women, decent girls behave. So if she's going beyond that and still out at that time of night at 9pm, then she should have known what was going to happen. And what did she expect? What did she expect to happen is basically what he's saying. And the idea that these men have the right

to dole out judgments and punishments, that's how entitled they feel over a woman who was just minding her business. So Mukesh Singh in this interview elaborates on his thinking with some more interesting quotes. He says, You can't clap with one hand.

It takes two hands to clap. A girl is far more responsible for a rape than a boy. He says, 20% of women are actually good. Obviously, we said we've watched India's Daughter a couple of times, but I watched and re-watched this particular part of the interview multiple times. Firstly, to get past my initial rage and the feeling that I couldn't even understand what he was saying. But it was because I wanted to actually think about what it was that he was saying. And eventually, the line, only 20% of women are good, became one of the most revealing lines of the entire interview for me. And we'll come back to this. So you know what to do. Pin out, insert here. We'll come back to it. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal.

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Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudian Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On the Media. To listen, subscribe to On the Media wherever you get your podcasts. I think that the police thought as soon as they caught the men responsible that the protests in Delhi would die down.

But they thought wrong. The protests raged on. Within days, they had spread from Delhi to other major cities up and down India. And watching the footage of these protests honestly made me so proud and did a lot to restore my faith in people. Because you can see not only women, but thousands and thousands of men standing alongside them screaming long live women's freedom. I think so many people felt Jyothi's pain and took to the streets like this because she represented the future of the nation. She was young, she was from a poor background but she'd worked her way up. India's booming economy is totally transforming the options

that many young women have. She was a beacon for what one could become and then she had been so cruelly destroyed. She became a symbol for what could happen to a promising future particularly for poor young women if the patriarchy and the old ways were allowed to go unchecked. It also became quickly obvious that these protests had turned into something that transcended what had happened to Jyothi. The protesters screamed the names of victim after victim who had been raped that year in Delhi, grotesquely now labelled India's rape capital. The women protesting carried signs which read, it's a dress, not a yes. And don't teach me what to wear. Teach your sons not to rape.

And I think we're kind of used to seeing signs like that in the West at protests. But I can't tell you how revolutionary it is that these women took to the streets with signs like that in India. Like, yes, Delhi is a more liberal, more modernized city. But still, this was really the first of its kind. And I think, you know, the other point to make here is that like, yes, those slogans for us are like, we see them all the time. But I think it also illustrates that the thinking is not that different. Like, obviously, there are culturally very extreme consequences in India. But the thinking of like, well, she deserved it, or like, that's what you get. Or like, India but the thinking of like well she deserved it or like that's what you get or like it's it's this thinking of like being raped as a woman is a

is an inevitability the only thing you can do is try and avoid it it's not it's nothing to do with you know stopping men from being rapists it's it feels almost like oh well we can't possibly do anything to stop men from being rapists like that feels almost like, oh, well, we can't possibly do anything to stop men from being rapists. Like that's not really a conversation that can lead anywhere. The only thing you can do is, like you said, make sure it happens to someone else and not to you. And, you know, Delhi has been called the rape capital of India, but it's a difficult one. The problem is that India is a nation of immense inequality and social divides. You have the modernising liberal cities with their booming middle classes, and then you have the impoverished, ultra-conservative rural areas.

And if we look at rural India, like we talked about briefly in the Halloween episode with the ritual sacrifices, in many places it can be like the Wild West. India is an enormous country, and there are huge swathes of it that are completely remote, completely rural. And in these areas, particularly in northern India, there are many unsanctioned courts. And tribal law, which is what is, I guess, practiced in these quote-unquote courts, is absolutely terrifying, especially if you're a woman. In each area, in places like this, there would be village elders, men of course, and these elders would oversee complaints and accusations, give their verdicts and dole out punishments,

which means that these situations sit largely outside of official centralized control. The stories that come out of these tribal law villages is horrific. Rape is used as a punishment for women. Women who have been raped are punished and men who rape are often rewarded with a rape victim as a wife. Because once that man's taken your virginity who else would marry you? And it's only right that he be your husband, as he now knows you so intimately. We don't have time to go into these tribal law rulings and cases. There are so many. If you Google this, you will be hit in the face with hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of stories. What I would say is Google India first in that, because I spent a long time, wasting time, Googling tribal laws, Indians, and it's all about Native Americans. And I was like, oh, God, really? What? This is confusing me. This doesn't make any sense.

How long did it take you to figure out? Two articles. Honestly, maybe we will cover it as like a bonus Patreon episode talking about these tribal law rulings and cases once we regain our strength from having covered this case. But the reason that it's so important to bring up now is because increasingly we see in India many men from villages like this moving into the cities looking for work. And what I'm not saying is either just normal villagers that sit outside cities. No, no, no. Think completely isolated isolated we're talking hours and hours away no infrastructure no roads leading there and more

and more men from villages like these are moving into the cities to look for work because of just the absolute economic poverty that they're facing and Mukesh Singh and Ram Singh the ringleaders of this attack on Jothi had moved to Delhi from such an area. And let's be clear before we move on. I'm certainly not saying that all these men from these areas are monsters. Of course they're not. Most of the men and the women who live in these incredibly isolated areas are just normal people who are victimized by the criminals who seek to exploit the situation they find themselves in. And the elders, like so many other politicians, are corrupted by power and rule with brutality to maintain the status quo of their power and patriarchy.

And the toxic culture of oppression of women is by no means limited to specific areas or people. It's a worldwide phenomena and one that knows no education, class or race barriers. For the bajillionth time, watch India's Daughter and listen to the way the defence attorneys for the rapists, so highly educated men, speak about the case. AP Singh, one of the attorneys, actually went on TV as soon as he got his client and said, this is a direct quote, this is probably the most shocking bit of the documentary for me. He said, quote, if my daughter or sister was engaged in premarital activities and disgraced herself, I would most certainly take this sort of sister or daughter outside in front of my entire family. I would pour petrol on her and set her alight.

And in the documentary, he confirms that after all of these years, he still stands by his words. And then another one of the defense attorneys, M.L. Sharma, gives us some interesting insight that's also worth mentioning. He says, out after 6.30, especially with a random boy. A man and a woman out like this has no place in our society. The man is immediately going to be thinking about sex. I love how he says a man and a woman going out at that time has no place in our society. Not a bunch of men gang raping a woman has no place in our society. Yeah, let's pay attention to that. Yeah, because it's not her male friend who took her to see like a film about a tiger on a boat that raped her, is it? It's like it's the six other like...

But no, he's saying all men are only thinking about sex. But yeah, like Awindra didn't want to fucking rape Jyoti. He just wanted to go watch Life of Pi. Shut the fuck up. And it's like the men who say things like this are obviously terrifying, but this one is quite specifically scary because, you know, if we put the victim blaming to one side for a second, he's saying that men are incapable of being around women without thinking about raping them.

Like, and I just, I don't think that is even possibly exclusive to India. Apparently Mike Pence, current vice president of the United States, apparently he refuses to be by himself with any woman other than his wife, who he calls mother. I hate that. We don't even have the time to fucking unpack what sort of a mess that is. But yeah, apparently that's true, that he refuses to be on his own in a room with any woman that isn't his wife.

Like, what the fuck? I get he's being like no accusations can be made against me but kind of like what are you so worried you're gonna do mate yeah what are you afraid of god jesus christ honestly it's terrifying also let's let's have a little light in the mood moment uh I don't know if you saw the instagram message we got from somebody and she was like after listening to the Levi Belfield case when we were talking about deal breaker would it be if a guy you were dating who was like in his 30s was when his mum came to visit would sleep in the bed with his mum and make you sleep on the sofa and she was like I had to message you after I listened to that because I dated a guy for three years and every time his mum would come I would

be on the sofa and he would sleep in bed with her and he was like I should have seen the red flags and run away immediately but he was cute and he knew where the sea was oh dear no I didn't see that but that's very which yeah which was Which, yeah, which I enjoyed immensely. But anyway. So we could dive right into a long old list of how rape victims are treated in the West. So let's just say there's a lot of work to do worldwide and no country is really ready to be patting itself on the back. And it's now time to pull that pin out from earlier. M.L. Sharma, one of the defense attorneys that Hannah just mentioned, in the documentary also goes on to say, quote,

A woman is like a flower. If you put her in the gutter, she's ruined. If you put her in the temple, she will be worshipped. And this point that he makes, coupled with the comment that Mukesh Singh, one of the rapists, makes in jail, saying the whole, you know, only 20% of women are good, put these together. And to me, it explains one of the mysteries that I had been trying to figure out. I've honestly spent the entire week pestering my parents talking about this case because I just needed to understand so many things that I didn't. This was my question. How in a country where 80% of the population identifies as Hindu, a multi-theistic religion with a plethora of female

goddesses who are revered and honored and worshipped, in a country that has had a female prime minister and a female president, the chief minister at the time of the Delhi attack was also a woman. How do we wrap our heads around the treatment of women as second-class citizens and the violence against women and girls when you're also seemingly existing in a society that isn't anti-women going into politics? Don't get me wrong, it's not like, you know, it's like total gender equality in the politics, but how does that work? Well, I think that these men give us the answer and it's deeply rooted in, I think, the Madonna-Hall complex. The Madonna-Hall complex is an interesting dichotomy that polarizes women into two categories.

Good, and therefore modest and chaste and subservient, and bad, so promiscuous, immoral, sexual and seductive. Studies into this dichotomy show that it reinforces patriarchy, a preference for hierarchical social structures, and sexist attitudes. So basically, it's saying that the women who toe the line, who fall into place, who follow the rules, they will be revered in such a society. Women who don't, well, they're fair game. And as Hannah has said in the last bit we were talking about, nothing about this is unique to India.

She's a slag. He's a player. It's all just so familiar. I really enjoy how you spelt player with an A there. Oh, obviously. Just to remind myself to say player. As all of this was unfolding, Jyothi was dying. Her condition deteriorated daily. The doctors tried everything. Jyothi was even flown to the Mount Elizabeth Hospital in Singapore, but it was no good. On the 29th of December 2012, two weeks after the attack, Jyothi died in hospital. Her parents, Asher and Badri, were at her side.

The last thing she said to her mum was that she was sorry that she had caused so much trouble for them. That night, Delhi glowed with the light of a thousand candles as people took to the streets to mourn Jyothi's death. Jyothi's parents have been left broken by the senseless murder of their daughter. So after their confessions, the five men were held in Tihar jail in Delhi. The juvenile was to be tried completely separately. He was sentenced to three years in a reform home for children and released in 2015.

On the 11th of March 2013, Ram Singh, the alleged ringleader, hanged himself in his cell before his trial. The others, however, went to trial at lightning quick speed, which was unusual in a country where rape cases usually die a slow death in the legal system. They never really go anywhere. So this is another reason why this case was so unusual. And all five men were found guilty of rape, unnatural sex and murder. And they were sentenced to be hanged. There were of course

appeals and the date of the hanging has been changed pending those. It is, as we said at the start, currently scheduled for the 3rd of March, which is, like, it's currently the 2nd of March, the day we're recording this, so tomorrow. As of the weekend before the executions, Akshay Thakur had filed a fresh mercy petition before the President of India, and Pawan Gupta had moved a curative plea before the Supreme Court. He was claiming that he was in fact only 16 at the time of the attack and not in his 20s, as records

indicate. And they were both requesting a stay on executions. But as of this morning, Monday 2nd of March, those petitions and appeals have been rejected and the men look set to go to the gallows on Tuesday as scheduled. If everything goes as planned, by the time you're hearing this, they will have been executed. It's me again, the fact-checked fairy. This information was correct until we had literally stopped recording and then some new news came out and the executions have been stayed again pending another mercy plea. So we don't know what's going to happen, but we'll keep an eye on it and we will let you know as soon as we know. And Ram Singh, the alleged ringleader who never

went on trial because he hanged himself in a cell, well his parents say that they think he was murdered and that he did not kill himself. And they may well be right. I don't know. In India, extrajudicial killings by police are not unheard of. There have been a recent spate of high-profile cases like this that have once again stirred up the conversation of violence against women in India. In November last year, so 2019, a 27-year-old vet in Hyderabad, which is in southern India, accused a group of men of gang raping her.

She was later found murdered. She'd been burned alive. The police then following this captured four men accused of the crime, took them to the crime scene and shot all of them. Afterwards, they claimed that the men had tried to escape and that they'd had no choice. This incident drew praise from some, of course, who were sick and tired of the slow movement of rape cases through the Indian legal system. And obviously, it drew condemnation from others. This is obviously because it's completely unethical, but also because there have been cases in which corrupt police officers will frame and kill poor men with absolutely no connection to the crime

to cover up for someone more well-connected. So obviously these kind of extrajudicial killings are not to be supported. And we're going to make one last pitch for you to watch India's Daughter. I didn't know this until just now. Fascinating. It actually banned in india and it's never been aired there and the filmmaker a lady called leslie udwin has also been banned from returning to india in the wake of the expose the reason india says that they banned it is because at first they said they banned it because they didn't want the expose to be shown before the trials had happened because it might influence unduly influence the jury or whatever but like it's being reported on the news like every single day and also just saying she can never come back

to India like that makes it very clear like what they think of her work you know it's all very confusing and now they still haven't shown it but i think it's more to do with um india's reputation on the world stage they don't want people watching this film they don't want people inside watching it that's why delhi crime is so propagandistic propagandistic is that a word you know what i mean i think it should be should be let's go let's make it there we go propagandistic and yeah like i think it's about reputation. It's about reputation. We don't need the world. We don't need to air our dirty prevalent in all societies at some level, in every nation, east or west. And making this documentary hit Leslie so hard that she actually gave up her career as a filmmaker

and has dedicated her life to early childhood development through the creation of a charity called Think Equal. And this case has led to a huge change in India because it catapulted India to number one in the list of most dangerous countries to be a woman in 2019. And maybe that's not the way in which people thought that this case was going to impact things, but the rise to the top of this fucking depressing list can absolutely be traced back to Jyothi's story. Because after this murder and the resulting protests, government data shows reported cases of crimes against women,

especially sexual violence, rose by 83% between 2007 and 2016. That's an average of one rape every 15 minutes being reported in India. And those are just the ones that are being reported. I don't necessarily think, in terms of if you look at countries like Saudi Arabia, stuff like that, that India is necessarily at the top of the list because of what the government will do to you in these cases. I think it's due to just a lack of recognition,

just the legal system ignoring these people, domestic abuse going unreported in the home, this kind of thing. And I think system ignoring these people, domestic abuse going unreported in the home, this kind of thing. And I think, like I said, it rose to number one because of the huge influx of new cases that started being reported as a result of the awareness that was raised because of Jyothi's case. I think it's like down to percentage change in these things. And what I would also say is, if you look at the list, maybe numbers one to nine aren't super surprising for most of us. Number 10 is the United States. Whoa. Yeah. And this is a Reuters list. Like we'll leave the link below so you guys can check it out. Like this is what we're

saying. It is not just in certain areas of the world that this is a problem. This is everywhere. And no country has the right to say that they've sorted this out. And yeah, like we said, I do genuinely believe that this rise for India was to do with more people coming forward. But the confidence to report rape, if that is what we're seeing here, alone isn't going to change the kind of deeply ingrained attitudes that exist within a country. The answer, as one of the chief justices from the Supreme Court

who was interviewed in India's Daughters says, the answer is education. Education gives women and girls the chance to stand on their own two feet, to not be dependent on a man, to be trapped in situations from which they cannot escape because they have no autonomy. And these things will change, they already are. But for most, like us, it's not

happening fast enough. And we're going to leave you with the words of Jyoti's father, Badri. He said, Jyoti has become a symbol, posing the question, what is the meaning of a woman? How is she looked upon by society today? In death, Jyoti lit a torch, and my hope is that whatever darkness there is in this world should be dispelled by her light. So that is the story of Jyothi Singh, more commonly known as the Nirbhaya case. We will leave all of the links to the stuff that we've talked about, including a link to where you can watch India's Daughter

in the episode description. Please go check it out. I think it's well worth your time to watch that. Also, I did find something really fun. There is, there are some people, well not fun. I don't know if it's fun. It's, it's a really good way to look at this case. There's a group of people who have created a superhero comic book range featuring Jyothi. Oh, really? As the hero. And there's a great couple of articles on there we'll leave it we'll also leave a link to the website so you can go you can download it free you can look at it it's an amazing graphic novel it's super well done and it's uh called priya's shakti and so

they've changed her name but shakti means like power strength and in the articles the headlines about this is like india's latest superhero is a rape victim. If you remember, Jyoti went to go watch Life of Pi. And I think it's an interesting parallel that her character in this graphic novel rides a giant tiger. Oh, really? Kind of like some of the Hindu goddesses. It's amazing work. And the murals of this work is like popping up all around India, wherever there are protest sites. Like it's super cool and really well done. Like I said, we'll leave a link. Go check it out. It's awesome. Other than that, yeah, if you're feeling pretty bummed out, come hang out with us under the duvet after this.

If you're a $5 up patron, we'll try our very best to cheer you up for a bit. Other than that, you can follow us on all the social medias at RedHandedThePod. And you can also come on over to Patreon and help support the show. And, guys, we know, we know we haven't got to all of you yet. As of the end of today, we will be up to the 8th of February. There are just so many of you that need your name shouting out, but we're trying our best. So here we go.

You just stop me when you think I've said enough names. Okay. So thank you very much, Laura, Randall, Katie, Kat Ravenhill, Rebecca Ohlert, Connie Leide, Brittany Irvin, Alison Lingle, Yuriko, Christine Park, Dana Osborne, Samela Reid, Mildy, Aubrey and Tamara, Thank you. Triti Poe, Maddy Moan, Becca, Aliana, yeah, Mawa, Melanie Flynn, Amanda Lopez, Jessica Snell, Arrow, Shalini Godfrey, Ginny Monaco, Sarah, Sarah, I'm not sure, there's no H, maybe Sarah, I'm not sure, there's no H, maybe Sarah. Ruby Jane, Ashley Justin, Amanda Alexander, Anna Hewn, James W, Ashton Dudleston, Don Zero, Katie Burns, Life of Picklet, Alyssa Tidmore, Jane Johnston, that's not even slightly your name, it's Kate Johnston,

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Yvonne. Okay, I'll do it. I'll take it. There we go. Lauren Howell, Pia Niklokin, Erica Adelaide Jones, Rebecca Wilmer, Steve steve lunny natasha oh come on man natasha not natalie erin nadia guvera uh jason brown garrett wind lauren ray danielle selena millington c evans um kimberly weber claudia rachel schlofling uh Kirsten Gardner, Samantha Heaney, Crystal Williams, Yvonne M, Jennifer Sigmund, Kirsten, Nick Sellers, Kukuk75, Brittany, Naila Gary, Lee Nolan, Claire Cook, Ali Bauer, Gina Charlesworth. Oh, guys.

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Absolutely. And we shall be with you very shortly in Under the Duvet. And if not, we will be with you in Under the News. In the News next week or this week. What? No, it's already out. No. Yes. Yeah, it is. I think so, yeah. In the News is already out, so hopefully you enjoyed that.

$5 on our patrons as well. Other than that, we will see you next week when we'll be covering something else. Till then. See you next time. Goodbye. Bye. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart.

But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing.

From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus.

In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance,

but it instantly moved me, and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify.