RedHanded - Episode 138 - Witch-Hunt: The San Antonio Satanic Panic

Episode Date: March 12, 2020

In Texas from 1997 to 1998 four lesbian Latina women were accused and convicted of sexually abusing two young girls in unbelievable devil worship rituals. Homophobia, and the rampant "satanic panic" at the time, sealed the fates of these young women and with no evidence - except the testimony of their young accusers - they were each imprisoned and labelled child rapists. This is the story of their fight for freedom. Weekly bonus content available at patreon.com/RedHanded Live Show Tickets: podcastlive.com/RedHanded  References:  https://www.texasobserver.org/mystery-san-antonio-four/ https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/23/san-antonio-four-texas-women-exonerated-gang-rape https://www.intomore.com/impact/how-four-latinx-lesbians-restarted-their-lives-after-being-wrongfully-imprisoned http://fourliveslost.com/ https://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-san-antonio-4-exonerated-20161123-story.html https://news4sanantonio.com/news/local/san-antonio-fours-wrongful-child-sex-convictions-expunged-after-nearly-two-decades https://www.ohio-forum.com/2019/03/san-antonio-four-to-visit-ohio-university-and-speak-on-wrongful-convictions-and-miscarriages-of-justice/ https://www.expressnews.com/news/local/article/Last-vestiges-of-criminal-past-erased-for-wrongly-13439907.php https://www.tpr.org/post/san-antonio-four-exonerated-child-sexual-assault-case https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/judge-clears-records-wrongfully-convicted-san-antonio-four-n943751 https://www.sacurrent.com/the-daily/archives/2019/06/06/one-of-the-san-antonio-four-women-has-been-appointed-to-houston-forensics-board-to-help-fight-injustice https://edition.cnn.com/2016/11/24/us/san-antonio-four-exonerated/index.html See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hannah.

I'm Saruti. And welcome to this week's Red Handed and welcome back to my voice. Because I am now completely recovered, but yet last week was fucking horrible. I basically was asleep, basically all week, just like a sweaty mess. And I like dragged myself to the pub on Saturday night. You looked sad when we were recording last time. I mean, we all look sad. And I think we just made everyone really miserable last week. No, I know. No, I literally like there was points during the recording where I was like,

I don't think I can do this. It felt so awful. It was like on the verge of tears. Yeah, it was pretty rough. There was definitely no comic relief last week, unfortunately. No, but we'll give it a good go this week. Exactly. Exactly. But yeah, what you went to the pub a sweaty mess on Saturday well I just I didn't it was like someone I went to school with's cousin or something and Nikki was like oh like just come down like blah blah and I was like I really don't want to it was in Homerton which is really far from my house but I dragged myself out and I was like oh oh, outside. This is what it's like to wear clothes. Got it.

Mate, I'm impressed. I'm impressed. When I had the flu over Christmas, there was just no chance. Absolutely no chance. I couldn't even look at a computer screen. So good work. Well done. Yeah, well, I'm back in action and ready to rumble this week.

And rumble we shall. We've got quite the case. We have. This week we are in quite familiar satanic panic territory but with an unfamiliar paradigm shift.

And we have of course covered the satanic panic in a couple of different episodes so go back and listen to them if you haven't heard them or if you just feel like going over the basics one more time.

We won't be rehashing anything that we covered in the Paul Ingram or Fall River episodes because that feels like a waste of time. And obviously, the last thing we want you to do is switch off because you're bored. Who thought Satanism and witches could get boring? I didn't until I did an anthropology degree. And I was like, oh, wait, if you read anything that is boring, this will become boring. And also not to, you know, I don't ever want to be on here talking about podcasts I don't like because you know who

wants to who wants to do that but we did try Hannah and I did try to listen to a podcast on satanic panic oh yeah and we were like super excited for we were on a car trip a car trip on a road trip and uh we were like where were we were we in Crete no no it was here it was when we were like, where were we? Were we in Crete? No, no, it was here. It was when we were stuck in traffic in Tottenham. Oh, yeah. It's when we went to go meet Colin Sutton to do the interview. Oh, yeah, you're right, you're right, you're right. And we drove to Cambridge and we were driving back. And then, yeah, just loads of fucking traffic.

And then there is a podcast out there on the McMartin Preschool scandal, which is a super interesting story at least I thought and it's called it's one of the uncover seasons basically it's the one that's just coming out now and I don't know maybe if somebody else has listened to it and they've persevered throughout tell me if I'm wrong and I should go back and give it another try because I don't know I kind of found it a bit boring which was hard when it's dealing with satanic panic ritual I did too but I think the problem with satanic panic is that it's such clickbait that it's literally never going to live up to what you think it's going to be because it

didn't fucking happen it's very difficult to tell the story in a compelling way because nothing happened except in today's episode when we were hold on to your hats guys we've just click baited you into this uncompelling story yeah get ready for some fucking storytelling no genuinely we're taking a different angle on it today so um it is an interesting story but yeah somebody tell me should I go back and listen to Uncover I don't know how I felt about it apart from slightly bored um so yeah yeah maybe you've got a higher tolerance to listen to it to shit chat but it's also written to be read not out loud if that makes sense yeah um but again we're not here to shit on it it's a very like it's a very well-produced podcast go listen to it and they've got like loads of seasons exactly yeah make your own minds up i'm not gonna put thoughts

in your brain exactly so in the interest of keeping this moving let's keep our ideas today quite thematic you'll remember that commonly in cases of accused satanic ritual abuse accusations came in thick and fast but actual evidence from the testimony of children and vulnerable adults was quite hard to come by and there's another theme that up until this week we've not highlighted in the satanic panic episodes that we've covered and that is that many of the people who were accused of sexually abusing children for satan were gay or suspected of being so by their community ray bucky for, for example, the 25-year-old who was in prison for five years during the notorious McMartin primary school investigation,

was told in the courtroom that he was suspected of being gay and accused of fabricating a sexual experience with a woman to clear his name. Did you know that the McMartin preschool trial was the longest and most expensive in US history? No. Yeah, madness. Absolute madness. Oh my God, I thought it was like fucking OJ Simpson or something. It's the fucking McMartin preschool scandal.

And no one was convicted. Nothing happened. Like, Ray Bucky was in prison for five years as he was waiting to go to trial, as the trial was going on. But like, no one was convicted of anything. It's, I mean, when you listen to that uncover, I did know this story before, or I thought I did. when you listen to the uncover and they're kind of just like oh this kid just said this and then they were like uh the next day that guy was arrested and put in

jail and that was it like it was just so baffling it felt like none of the dots were connecting but yeah and wasn't it him just wearing shorts, basically, was the issue? There's so much bigotry in this world. Yeah. Yeah. So obviously another satanic panic one that we've looked at is Paul Ingram. And he was suspected of extramarital affairs with his male co-workers and poker pals. And the Fall River cult, in inverted commas, was full of same-sex relationships too. So we're clearly seeing that people are linked

to the level of sexual deviance needed to sexually abuse children in a cult-like environment to being gay. And obviously, that is not true. Being a member of the LGBTQ community makes you in no way more likely to abuse a child than if you are straight. And I think the root of this idea lies in the misinformation that if you are a member of the LGBTQ community, it is because you are damaged in some way. So you're a victim of

trauma, perhaps, or you're choosing to live a life that is sinful. And I don't know, when Hannah and I were talking about this, we were like, we're amazed that there are still people out there who think like this. But of course there are. there are billions and billions of them it's just because we live in a bubble where none of my friends think like this and it's so true I don't have any conversations with anyone who thinks like this but of course they're there people talk about the London bubble all the time like particularly when it comes to politics and I'm like what do you mean everyone I know is a socialist and then you go outside the m25 and you're like oh yeah exactly or you just go on wild card dates from hinge and you're like oh whoa whoa what's happening oh god

may of course i mean we talk about the london bubble but go sort of like fulham way that's what people think you know like in my old job, I won't name names, but like... I will. There used to be a guy I worked with who, you know, was clearly from a very well-off background, was clearly very Tory. Like, okay, saying maybe there are religious factors that play into people's opinions of these things that have sort of been long and deeply ingrained. Fox hunting feels like one of those things that surely we can all think is just pretty abhorrent. Just on its face, on its face value. So I thought it was safe to talk about this. And he was like, no, it's actually a way to control.

It's just, it's pest control. The hunt is pest control. Like, no, no no sorry i was floored i was like so you're telling me that a bunch of rich white people get all dressed up get drunk get on their horses on a sunday and go out to do pest control yeah just to do a fucking community service i do not think so i mean jesus yeah like fucking oh yeah just doing your bit for the community definitely paying all your taxes and killing some foxes i just had no words i had no words for it uh so we'll leave it at that but yeah i went to a very horsey school because um

i'm posh so many girls had like beat the band stickers in their car windows and stuff. Because when we were at school was when the band was brought in. Jesus. So I did not go to a horsey school. I went to a fucking shit school. But I remember us actually doing an art project once where we drew like posters for the fox hunting.

Maybe it was because it was the same time the band came out actually. And my art teacher was clearly very, like, anti-fox hunting. I just remember reading this. I can't even remember where. It was probably like a Guardian article. So this isn't unique. I can't take credit for it.

But it was about, like, imagine if a bunch of guys from down the estate took their fucking pit bulls out and found a fox and tore it to pieces. You wouldn't be like, oh, that's cool. They're just doing some pest control on the estate fuck off i can't remember who is but it might be bill bailey who's got a bit about it um this from years ago from when the band came in and he was like okay you know if you're saying it's pest control my problem is it is that you really fucking enjoy it so sure you can have fox hunting only if every fucking sports day is adjudicated by pedophiles like it's not like it's not sorry no fox hunting and if you can fucking go off about this in the facebook group if you want but i will not be reading it oh absolutely also like maybe

people outside of britain are like what the fuck are they talking about fox hunting is now banned in the uk but it's still quite a... The Tories want to bring it back, right? They want to have a vote to bring it back. Yeah, they're allowed to use a fake fox. Fuck you. Anyway, we're wildly off topic. Okay, so we are not in fox hunting territory this week.

We're actually in Texas, which is a state not known for its tolerance. Gay marriage was legalized in Texas in 2015 and to put that into context same-sex marriage was legalized in England and Wales in 2013 so we cannot be on our high horses about this at all two years ahead of Texas in this particular circumstance I don't think it's anything to be proud of absolutely not I was shocked yeah no me too and like obviously we had civil partnership before that but like civil partnership is not like if you choose to have a civil partnership that's fine but like it's like saying oh you can get the bus you just have to sit

at the back yeah and the whole idea of marriage being somehow like in the realm of the church is bullshit anyway because until like the middle ages thank you time team and tim our old mate tim robinson again somebody did post on the patreon after we talked about him that they saw him when he when they were like eight in a restaurant and asked him to give him a signature and tim was like no so that's kind of a bit shady i don't think it is honestly I did read that and I'm sorry that yeah upset you but also let him live his life oh it's a kid though he's a I think that's mean I would have been like you're a prick but anyway yeah but you don't know what maybe his dog just died maybe he was just having a shitty day maybe maybe but should make yourself feel better by making someone else feel better

but anyway what point was I bringing up? Oh yeah. Like until the middle ages, marriage was just like shit that people did with each other completely outside of the control of the church. The church was then like, actually, we're going to take control of this because it's the easiest, it's another really easy way to control people and control people's lives. So for them to have held onto it for all these centuries, and then in 2013 been like, oh, okay, you guys will now allow you to get married. Oh, fuck off.

Like, the whole thing's a con. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Do you know what made me fucking laugh? Not laugh, but what I thought was ridiculous was when, you know, when Notre Dame burnt down and people were donating millions of fucking pounds. The Catholic Church don't need your money, mate. They need it less than anybody.

Exactly. And it was like, I don't know. I don't know if this was... Johnny Depp promises $1 billion to the fucking... He's fucking bankrupt. He's got no fucking money. Oh, I know. Did you see those texts?

There were like texts that came out, I think like last week or the week before. Not that we are now like a celebrity gossip podcast, but it was the whole Amber Heard domestic abuse thing and apparently he had been texting a friend of his being like let's destroy her talking about Amber Heard but again allegedly I don't know I also just read the headline and I don't know if it's actually true so back to today's story after our little sidetrack into the world of fox hunting Tories and time Team. One of the central

characters in our story today remembered being in a bar in the 90s in San Antonio, Texas, and watching a gay man stumble in while a knife was plunged into his back. The people we meet today were no strangers to anti-LGBT violence and prejudice. But we are not starting with this one. We're starting with Elizabeth Ramirez. At only four foot nine inches, Elizabeth Ramirez was known as Little Liz in high school, where despite her stature, she performed well on the basketball team. Go Liz. I'm into that. As a fellow short girl, I'm into that. Yeah, she's even shorter than you. She is shorter than me. Put it into context. I am five foot two.

Average height in this country is like five foot four. So I'm not that much shorter. Is it really? It is. Like average height in this country is not that tall. It's like five foot four. Somebody's probably going to correct me. But the last time I checked, I remember thinking that. Did you know the average height for men in the Netherlands is six foot?

Average height. Let's move. See you later, five foot fourers. I'm out of here. Oh, God. And at 16, little Liz started messing around, as most of us maybe did, with boys, drugs and arguing, especially with her mother.

And these teenage growing pains turned into serious mental health problems and Liz overdosed on her mother's anti-anxiety medication. Liz woke up in hospital and her mum kicked her out of the house. So she moved in with her sister and her then-boyfriend, who is very important in this story, so remember his name. It was Javier Limon. Now, Liz didn't get on very well here. She disliked Javier, so she moved in with a friend from school. And in this house,

Liz started to question her sexuality and began a lesbian relationship. And she knew when she did this that this would spell even more trouble for her already strained relationship with her mum. All of the major players in our story today are Latinx and from Catholic families. Catholicism, of course, as we've discussed before and as many of you know, has very clear views about homosexual relationships, acts, thoughts and feelings, and none of them are good ones. Just as Liz suspected when her mum found out about her same-sex relationship, she disowned her. This all went on while Liz was still in school. She worked multiple jobs,

but six months before graduation, it all just became too much and Liz dropped out of school. Liz and her mum did actually go on to reconcile and Liz was able to move into her own flat that her mum co-signed she was working in a retirement home which she enjoyed within the admittedly quite small gay community of san antonio liz made a solid group of friends they were called kirsty mayhew and cassie riviera who she met working at heb which apparently is a supermarket chain exclusive to texas which appears to offer something called curbside pickup. What is that? Is it like you can, they'll bring all your shopping out to your car for you? It must be that. Like you just, like a drive-thru fucking supermarket.

Baft, absolutely Baft. I guess like, do they do like home deliveries? Like here, how Tesco will do like home deliveries. They must do. So why would you drive to the supermarket? It's just such a big country. Can you imagine one poor guy in a fucking van with like 10 deliveries to do? He'll be driving for hours.

Here, it's like everyone on our street just gets it done and that guy just goes home. I don't know. Someone tell us. Or go to HelloFresh.com forward slash redundant. Plug, plug, plug. Cassie's girlfriend, Anna Vasquez, was the fourth member of this group. Her and Cassie had met at Little Caesars and both described the encounter as love at first sight. Kirsty had two years of veterinary training under her belt from Texas A&M,

which is, from what I understand, a pretty good school, and intended to go back as soon as she could get enough money together. Cassie worked at AutoZone and wanted to be a mechanic. Anna wanted to be a nurse. All four of them were poor, they were Hispanic, they were gay and they were trying to make something of themselves in a pretty hostile environment I'd argue. Liz wasn't quite so sure what she wanted to do. She started a new relationship with a man. It didn't last but she got pregnant and decided to keep the baby after the relationship ended. The four women became very close and they were all around Liz's house helping each other out. They all banded together to help Liz babysit her two nieces for a week.

Liz's niece's father was Javier Limon. And that takes us to September 1994. Liz was four months pregnant and just 20 years old. And that day there was a knock at the door of her one-bedroom apartment. It was Detective Thomas Matjeka from the San Antonio Police Department's Homicide Squad. He told Liz that he was assisting on a sex crime investigation, and that he needed to ask her some questions. A dumbfounded Liz Ramirez agreed to accompany the detective to the police station. When she got there, it became clear what the situation was. Her nieces, so the daughters of

Javier Limon, who at the time were just seven and nine years old, had told their grandmother and their father that Liz and her friends had sexually abused them during their week-long stay with their aunt. Liz barely had any words. This accusation was so out of the blue and so shocking that all she could do was deny it. The detective then asked Liz a long list of questions about her engagement in lesbian relationships. At the time in Texas, victims of sexual abuse, especially especially children didn't have their names published in the press so for the moment we'll refer to Javier's daughters as VL who was nine and SL who was seven. VL and SL had allegedly told their father that during the week-long stay with their aunt Liz she and her lesbian friends had rubbed their hands over their

genitals they'd been smoking they'd been topless, there was white powder everywhere. And they said that Liz had threatened the young girls at gunpoint as a part of what appeared to be a cult sacrifice. A few days later, a few days after Liz had been taken to the police station, Cassie and Anna realized that they had been implicated too. Kirstie Mahey was arrested at her mother's house in Houston, about three hours from San Antonio. The police surrounded the property and asked her to walk out alone. By the time Liz was arrested, she'd given birth. She says today that being separated from her newborn son is her most painful memory. All four friends, so that's Liz, Cassie, Anna and Kirsty, were indicted for sexually assaulting Liz's nieces. all four of them maintained their innocence.

And they were sure that there were actually very few occasions during the week that VL and SL were staying at Liz's that all four of them had been there at the same time. They all kept very different hours and very different jobs. But VL and SL insisted that all four women were present during the assault. The friends would go on to become known as the San Antonio Four, and they were offered a plea deal. So they were asked to take guilty in exchange for 10 years probation, but all four refused this. They were so sure that the justice system would protect them that they didn't even hire a lawyer until the very late stages of the investigation. And now we need to look at

Javier Limon. He had reported his daughter's accusations to the police, but there was a bit more to him than just a deliverer of bad news. You see, he had been pursuing Liz Ramirez for quite some time. And remember that Liz is his like baby mum's sister. Yeah, like you do not pursue your ex-girlfriend's sister. What the fuck is wrong with you? The sister of the mother of your children. But he'd been at it for ages. He would lend her money,

he would offer to drive her places, he would leave her long voicemails, and maybe these things would seem reasonably innocent if they had not been accompanied by incredibly long love letters that he would write. In these letters, he calls Liz his little angel and writes poetry about her. But as Liz was now no longer batting for his team,

she rejected Javier Limon's advances. And I also think it's not even just the fact that she's like, I'm actually into women, so no thank you. He's just like, you're abominable and I hate you. And also the fact that you've got fucking kids with my sister, so please just fuck off. And Liz was actually so kind of disturbed by his advances that she had spoken to her mum about Javier's behaviour.

And her mum had actually confronted Javier about the letters. And he had stormed out of the room room denying that he had ever written them. And these letters, you'll be interested to know, were not presented at Liz's trial in February 1997 when she was charged with aggravated sexual assault of a child and indecency with a child. I think they probably should have been since they give a pretty good motivation

for why this man might be making these kind of claims but apparently apparently not so prosecutor philip kazan who is now a judge by the way asked the jury and this is this is what this man says in court asked the jury to close their eyes and imagine that liz had quote held a nine-year-old girl up as a sacrificial lamb to her friends. That's literally his, like, opening gambit. Like, that's what he starts his prosecution with. And, like, obviously his job is to get her convicted. Fine. But it just seems so aggressive.

With all of these satanic panic cases, with this one, with the kind of McMartin Preschool one that the Uncover podcast talks about, it just seems baffling because there are so many other cases that you and I have talked about and researched and covered, where they're like desperately trying to gather enough evidence and information so that the, you know, the district attorney or the CPS will allow it to go to trial so that they feel like there's a strong enough case literally all there is here is the word of these two kids there's like nothing else and they're like yep stick them on trial let's go let's have it let's be having you oh yeah and also they're lesbians so they probably did do it yeah yeah and then after this uh this opening gambit a vivid description of gang rape of the two children with satanic connotations knives white

powder and guns followed i also think the white powder thing is so interesting because you know when the girls first make the accusations and they say there was white powder everywhere i just feel like as a nine-year-old or as a seven-year-old without the context of understanding what that white powder is and that it's something you know illicit why would you even mention it like why would you even take account of it this is the thing bullshit like in the documentary about this case a comment is made that like the description of the situation is very much what a man thinks that women get up to like it's it's very like dropped in as i did i know exactly and also like you know these kids have uh you know a different background to you and me,

so maybe they would be more aware, possibly, of illicit drugs than, like, we would have been at seven and nine. But even still, I just don't think that this story is a kid's memory. I don't think. No. And when the aforementioned nine-year-old girl, so that's VL, the eldest sister, walked into the courtroom to give her statement,

she smiled and waved at her accused Aunt Liz sitting behind the defendant's table. Javier Limon's mother, Serafina, took the stand at Liz's trial to recount the day she found out that her granddaughters were being abused. According to Serafina, VL and SL were playing outside when one of them, unclear which one, ranL and SL were playing outside when one of them, unclear which one, ran in and told their grandmother that the other sister had been undressing their dolls and making them kiss. That sounds pretty normal to me. My Barbies are getting off with each other all the time. Barbies dream house cars with a double bed. Come on, man. Of course. I mean, I just,

I just don't. I even asked for an action man because i thought ken was really ugly ken was ugly ken was the ken i had like his hair just sort of like stuck out at this like weird angle and i was like this isn't gonna cut it i need an action man oh my god it was always action man who wants a fucking ken god get in the bin ken get me an action man um so parents if you think that your kids are not making their dolls get off with each other, you're sadly mistaken. They definitely are. And not necessarily an indicator of abuse, I would argue. But apparently, Serafina was one of these naive child carers and asked her granddaughter where the other one had seen such behaviour.

And the child said, quote, Grandma, I can't tell you because something happened and they threatened me. When Javier Limon returned home from work, his two daughters recounted the same story, which was this. They'd been at Liz's house when her and all of her lesbian friends held them down, molested them and threatened them with knives and guns surrounded by tequila, syringes and white powder. In some versions of the story, Liz, Anna, Cassie and Kirsty injected cold liquid into the children and inserted tampons into their vaginas. Liz then made VL call Javier to tell him that everything was fine whilst threatening her with a gun. Then Liz called SL, the younger sister,

into the bathroom and left VL behind. VL claimed to hear her sister screaming from the bathroom. And it just, it does seem like syringes like cold liquid it just seems like a lot for a seven and a nine-year-old to know about I'm pretty sure the worst thing I knew about when I was nine was smoking but like they're from a different background I don't think we can say on that alone they definitely have never seen cocaine before you know no I think it's the understanding of what it is like even if they had been around it unless someone has sat them down and been like hey you see this white powder it's like illegal and we love it as grown-ups yeah it makes us feel like this and if you ever see it you should tell me but like i don't know i just

feel like even if you were around this how do they know what a syringe is how do they know like what cocaine what tequila is like i don't know i think even if you're around it and you were i don't know brought up in a chaotic background like the fact that they're pinpointing these things as being nefarious especially in fact if they've grown up around that it seems weird to me that they connect that as being like bad stuff that they should report to their dad it all just screams of coaching it does obviously you know you should believe children and all of this sort of stuff. But like we, you'll see when we get there, the reason that we don't believe this story.

And of course, you should believe kids and believe anybody who reports abuse or reports a crime being committed against them. But there should be a fucking investigation, which is what seems to be severely lacking as we go through this case. And also there are tells in the way that things like this are reported especially by children which just seem weird because what we're not saying is that these kids weren't being abused they're being abused by somebody they're just not being abused in the way they're saying they are so the jury heard this story in various forms from seraphina javier and VL at trial. Liz's defense attorney argued that VL had misremembered this story totally and the reference to firearms was actually a quote, confabulation of facts and a jumbling of things,

weapons, bedrooms and hatred towards family. Because VL had been threatened with a gun before, or at the very least she had been present when her mother was held at gunpoint So this is what we're saying, that these kids did have a tumultuous childhood. So the family had been living in Colorado when Javier threatened the girl's mother, Rosemary, so Liz's sister, with a gun. Rosemary said, quote, Go ahead and pull the trigger Javier I'm not afraid of you. This account was corroborated by multiple people including Rosemary's new partner who Javier claimed was an excellent forger and had copied his handwriting and sent all the pages and pages

of love letters to Liz. Come on man like yeah I think this this guy's name is Oscar, I think, Rosemary's new partner. And Javier's just like, oh, it was him. Everything was him. So don't worry about it. You know, that one thing that might sort of give an indication as to why I might be pursuing this bullshit claim. It wasn't me. Somebody else wrote it and he wrote it to frame me in the most bizarre, inconsequential and mundane way possible. Like, literally, what would have been the purpose of doing this? It just makes no sense. I'd also like copying someone's signature for financial gain or whatever is one thing.

But writing entire love letters repeatedly, well, that takes some doing. So, I don't know, it seems a bit far-fetched. Now, for whatever reason, as we said, these letters were not submitted as evidence at the trial. So all of this went unnoted by the jury. But for two major reasons, I honestly don't think that even if they had been shown, it would have made that much of a difference. The first of these reasons is the prosecution counsel's star witness, Dr. Nancy Kellogg, who had examined the very same scar on the hymens of sexual abuse victims before. And the jury were shown models of such injuries. Did you know that Mr. Kellogg's, the guy who started the Corn Flakes,

said that his original marketing or purpose for it or intent behind his product was he said that people eating cereal would stop them from masturbating I did know that can't trust a Kellogg I don't really understand how that would like are you making gloves out of the cornflakes like I don't how is that working I mean maybe high fiber diet I don't know uh kills the libido I don't know keep your hands busy but uh yeah this is this is a funny one like um but it meant liz was in trouble because it's kind of like a csi effect thing like the jury were like oh this is science this is hard evidence yeah dr kellogg was the very first person to make the satanic connection in this particular case after she examined vl and sl she wrote in her notes that

the abuse might have been satanic in nature um how how how how how how is this girl on her hymen in the shape of a fucking pentagram oh my god what what what where does i think she just dr nance just like wanted to get on the satanic panic train, to be honest. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in 1994, which is when she made those notes, it's quite possible that that note that Dr. Nancy Kellogg wrote might have been the last ever time that satanic abuse was linked to child sexual abuse in that way, because the end of the satanic panic in 1994 was extremely fucking nigh.

And Dr. Nancy, I think she just missed the boat i think she just wanted to jump on the bandwagon she does redeem herself later on don't worry but the second reason that we think that the jury wouldn't have given a flying fangled fuck about the letters from javier to liz is the blatant homophobia that was present in the courtroom from all possible angles the jury were repeatedly asked to consider just how awful it was that liz was offering up her nieces to her coven of lesbian friends even the word like even the way they frame it is like i don't know if coven was your word in your creative writing all right i was like fucking out calling them a coven of lesbians yeah no i'm i'm just as guilty there

i'm afraid i'm just painting you a picture guys no no but you're painting us a picture of their homophobia but yeah like uh would have been interesting if you'd actually use that word so phil kazan for the prosecution asked liz if she was in a sexual relationship with each one of her co-accused friends and she answered no every time and then this exchange happened phil says well you were gay and they were gay and then liz well that doesn't mean that you have to be together phil you were all friends liz because we're all gay phil well maybe i'm confused i thought that you said if you if you're gay and you were friends that's a gay relationship liz no you're confusing yourself because i said that kirsty wanted a relationship

with me a gay relationship with me i did not want a relationship with her we were friends me cassie and anna yes they're all gay and we're friends but that doesn't mean it's a gay relationship we're all friends it doesn't mean we're all intimate together or had any kind of sexual togetherness isn't that absolutely fucking shocking oh well you know you are lesbians in the same room so therefore i just love that first line that he says was like well you were gay they were gay honestly imagine if somebody was to you like well you're a girl he's a boy yeah no it's exactly the same it's like oh well like you and your house you live in a house with a straight male who was single why aren't you fucking you must be fucking surely

you're fucking right exactly oh my god but this rhetoric went on and on and on and on every turn in her trial the prosecution made it seem that because liz was gay it followed that she must have been capable of sexually abusing her nieces. And that isn't the only attempt to villainize Liz Ramirez beyond belief. When Liz told the court that she loved those children 100% and would never hurt them in any way ever, now Judge Phil Kazin actually said, quote, so says OJ Simpson, mom. Remember, he was the prosecutor at the time. He's now a judge. But he actually says, so says OJ Simpson, mom. How has this man been allowed to become a judge? I don't know. I think I'd be more surprised if he hadn't, to be honest with you. So Liz's defense team asked the

judge if the prosecutor had actually really just made a reference to OJ Simpson. And if he had, that he was going to call for a mistrial. But this defense attorney's interjection was overruled, and the interrogation of Liz Ramirez continued, with specific focus on her romantic relationships with women. And the jury lapped it up. Especially Lonnie Gentry, the foreman of the jury, who, guess what, was a minister with incredibly openly anti-LGBT opinions. He genuinely believed that homosexuality was a sin. But he promised that his religious beliefs would not cloud his judgment during the trial. Oh, Lonnie, you promise, do you? Oh, come on then.

You can be foreman. How is this allowed? This is only the fucking 90s. Like, Jesus. Unbelievable. I'm also just like, how did the defense allow this? I don't know how the whole jury selection process works in the US exactly, but I thought they could both be like, no, no to this person because they are quite openly saying. No, that's the whole point. They have to, they ask you questions like, do you think someone is more guilty because they have got a lawyer? And they have to answer all of these questions.

And then if your opinions are like, so people try and cheat the system when they don't want to do jury duty and they'll be like, I'm mad. I'm also a fucking racist. Like, don't make me do it. But clearly in this situation, like the jury selection was an absolute shit show because in fact, several members of the jury admitted to having negative views of same sex relationships, but they were not cut from the jury pool.

Every single one of the fucking defendants on this case is gay. And the people in this jury are like, do you hate gay people? Yeah. In fact, I'm a minister and I like actually preach about that quite loudly every single week. Oh, how do you feel about being foreman? It sounds like you're really good at public speaking. Yeah, exactly. Jesus.

So anyway, Liz Ramirez was, of course, found guilty by this jury in a matter of hours. Remember, there is no other evidence apart from Dr. Nancy's testimony and the kids' testimony. And she was sentenced to 37 and a half years. Lonnie Gentry, Mr. Minister and foreman of the jury, made it quite clear that he thought that Liz should have been sentenced to life imprisonment. Do you really, Lonnie? You surprise me. And he also commented that if she had been a man on trial, that that would have been the case. Just fucking Lonnie, man.

Shut up. Whatever. I can't. I can't with you, Lonnie. Lonnie, I've had enough. Go and talk to Father Neil. He'll sort you out. What is Lonnie short for? Lonford. Lonifer? Lonford Gentry. Minister. I don't know.

Lubecka? I've no idea. It's quite a cute name, but I hate him. Maybe Leonard or Lawrence. I don't know. Maybe. I'm going to go with Lenifer. So, get this.

The Ontario Liberals elected Bonnie Crombie as their new leader. Bonnie who? I just sent you her profile. Check out her place in the Hamptons. Huh. Fancy. She's a big carbon tax supporter, yeah? Bonnie who? Huh, fancy. She's a big carbon tax supporter, yeah? Oh yeah, check out her record as mayor. Oh, get out of here.

She even increased taxes in this economy. Yeah, higher taxes, carbon taxes. She sounds expensive. Bonnie Crombie and the Ontario Liberals. They just don't get it. That'll cost you. A message from the Ontario PC Party. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding,

I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now, exclusively on Wondery+. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go.

A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me, and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard

and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudian Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On The Media. To listen, subscribe to On The Media wherever you get your podcasts. When Liz was taken to the holding cell after her sentencing hearing, she fainted.

Years later, Liz recalled feeling unbearable guilt that her friends Cassie, Anna and Kirsty were all involved in this big mess too, but involved they were. And the other three of the San Antonio Four stood trial altogether a year later in February 1998. This time, both VL and SL would testify. Their stories didn't match up. Not only did SL's story differ from VL's one, VL couldn't manage to tell the same story she had told at Liz's trial a year before. And obviously they're children and they've gone through a traumatic event. Expecting them to retell every detail may be out of the question, but the differences are difficult to ignore. In one version there's no gun, in another there is a gun. And in yet another one, there's three whole guns. And when SL told the story to the police, there had been multiple

other children present in her retelling. But when she took the stand, she was adamant that her and her sister had been alone. Based on this, the defense team were very confident that they would win. They didn't. On Valentine's Day 1998, all three women were convicted of sexual assault of a child and indecency with a child, and they were each sentenced to 15 years. They were allowed to stay out of prison until the appeals process had been exhausted. Couple Cassie and Anna immediately made it their mission to prove where they had been every second of every minute of the week that VL and SL were staying with Liz. They got a massive

poster board and organized each woman's movements on each day. Because remember, the kids are saying that all four women had been present at the time that the abuse had happened. So their thinking is, if we can just prove that we were all in different places at different times, there was very little overlap, then it throws into question the possibility that they were all there together, which is what the kids say. And it wasn't hard because these women, Cassie and Anna, they did lots of shifts. They dropped each other off at work. They played basketball.

They took the kids swimming and they went to Walmart. All four of them actually spent very little time together at the flat as a four that week. But the murder war that they had put together of their own movements didn't help anyone. Kirstie, Cassie and Anna went to prison in the year 2000. They were all split up and sentenced to 15 years imprisonment. All of them never wavered on their declarations of innocence. Cassie was even put in solitary confinement for 30 days

because she refused to participate in a sex offender rehabilitation program. And now that all of the San Antonio four were interred, but none of them were taking it lying down, they started writing to anyone who could get media attention on their case. They wrote to Oprah, they wrote to Maury, they wrote to Montel. Liz spent every penny she had on stamps, but she didn't hear back from a single soul. Oh, Oprah. Come on, man.

Yeah, drop the ball there, kid. Montel, come on. Should have gone to Dr. Phil, mate. Though I don't know if he was big at this point. I don't think he was. Oh, maybe not. Maybe it's a bit before his time. Yeah, I think he was on Oprah at this time as her resident. Ah, yeah. Sorry, I forgot. was on Oprah at this time as like her resident. Ah, yeah.

Sorry, I forgot. I should have consulted the Dr. Phil historian. I wanted to dispel this rumour that I am somehow a massive Dr. Phil fan. I'm not. It's trash.

Excuse you. Excuse you, all of you. I have watched the Dr. Phil show, but I will not believe anyone who tells me they also haven't watched at least a single episode of that trash. Somebody did send us quite a funny tweet that it was like therapy, but there's an audience laughing at you, Dr. Phil. That is what it is.

That is what it is. I'm not a fan of the show. I think there's something very wrong with him. He's hiding something. I'm certain of that. Yeah, he's hiding his fucking $440 million fortune. Mate. Though, I did watch the episode about Jared Fogle, the subway guy.

Mate. And then somebody was like, cover the case. And I was like, literally the only person that has all the tapes is Dr. Phil. Have you heard it though? He's like... No, I don't know anything about it. So Jared Fogle was that guy who lost all that weight And then said That it was because Of Subway

Oh shit Yeah And then He was like a massive Fucking child sex offender Oh yeah And he tried to Groom this journalist

Into sort of like Helping him pick up kids And sexually abuse them But she secretly Tapes all of the conversations And gives them to the FBI And it's like Oh

And like full credit To this woman Because she's obviously Disgusted by the things he's saying to her because he's like talking explicitly about child sex abuse. And she just grits her teeth and gets on with it so that she can give the FBI the evidence. And I'm like, you know, good for you, lady. Somebody did say to cover that.

And I would love to cover that. But can somebody point to a place that isn't the Dr. Phil show where we can listen to those entire tapes? Because he will sue us to death oh yeah fully fully we'll literally be turned inside out just by the power of his thoughts so anyway back to this uh they should have written to dr phil had he had the coverage that he currently has but they didn't and nobody got back to them but luckily all the way out in the yukon territory of canada someone else was also writing letters data scientist daryl otto living all on his own with his pack of huskies in the yukon territory of canada was researching cases of women who sexually abused children. Daryl, my man.

I know, it's so funny. Daryl. I read an interview with him where he said that when he lived in Yukon with his huskies, it was like living in a labour camp. It's fucking so lonely and cold and like a million miles from the nearest shop. So better start looking at fucking child abuse cases. There's nothing else for it. During Daryl's research, he came across the news story of Liz, Anna, Cassie and Kirsty

and it caught his attention. Not just because paedophilic acts are so rarely committed by women, but also because this case didn't seem to fit any of the parameters that usually surround women's involvement in child sexual abuse. Those parameters are essentially this. In the incredibly rare cases where women sexually abuse children, it's usually an adult woman who abuses a child in a teacher-slash-student relationship,

like fucking notes on a scandal, like that sort of thing. Yeah, so generally like teenage pupils or teenage children. Not even necessarily just teenagers, but just the woman is usually a teacher. Or like a fucking brownie leader. Brown owl. For example. I'm not saying that you need to keep an eye on your brown owl. I was just using her.

Yeah, I mean. So as Daryl pored over the San Antonio four story, he realized that the one at the heart of it all, Liz Ramirez, had a profile on writeaprisoner.com. So he wrote to her. She wrote back. And the two opened a dialogue. And a few months later, Daryl Otto headed to Texas to meet Liz

in person. That is so fucking far, it literally would have been easier for him to get to the North fucking Pole. I think he just wanted out, mate. He was like, I'm coming. Get me out of fucking Yukon Territory, Canada. I'm coming to San Antonio, Texas. Someone watch was like i'm coming get me out of fucking yukon territory canada i'm coming to san antonio watch the huskies i'm out of it after this meeting in texas otto decided that he was going to help liz and her friends so he reached out to the national center of reason and justice which was created specifically to deal with satanic ritual

abuse cases and to advocate for people who were wrongfully convicted of harming children. His write-up of the case ended up in the hands of journalist Debbie Nathan, who wrote Satan's Silence, which was one of the first books to cover cases connected to the satanic panic. Debbie Nathan decided that she would have a look at this case. One of the first things she noticed was that Dr. Kellogg's scarred hymen testimony had been debunked since the trial in 94. So she passed the case on to the Innocence Project of Texas and also onto LGBTQ filmmaker Deborah Esquinazi, who was soon devoted to telling the four's story. Deborah went on to make a documentary about this case called Southwest of Salem, the story of the San Antonio four. Watch it. I had to watch it on daily motion, which it just flips. Obviously, it's illegal and it flips the image motion which it just flips obviously it's illegal and it flips

the image so it's easy it's more difficult for people to track it down so like I think I actually missed because there's a lot of like writing and it was just I was like I can't do mirror reading but I tried to buy it but I physically couldn't Debra let me buy your film yeah but like even if I VPN my way into like Amazon the American Amazon because I don't have an American card couldn't do it so i would have paid for it if it was humanly possible but it wasn't and the title of the documentary is quite an obvious nod to the west of memphis documentary that covered the west memphis three and that should give you a clue about what happened to liz cassie anna and kirsty

before the feature was made deborah made a short film of her interviewing each of the four women and that film was played at various fundraisers all over Texas. Other cogs were turning two. SL was ready to identify herself. Her name was Stephanie Limon and she, now a 25-year-old woman, had changed her mind. Stephanie released an interview with a local newspaper in which she totally recanted her testimony. She said that she had no memory of any of it happening at all and that she had been coached by her father Javier and her grandmother Serafina. She said quote I will make things right and I'm sorry for everything I put you through. I was only seven and I was scared. It was also confirmed by Rosemary who was Liz's sister and Stephanie's mother and Javier's ex-partner,

that this was not the first time that Javier had asked his daughters to make allegations of sexual abuse against people who had crossed him. The first person he accused just accepted the 10-year parole plea deal and lived a life on the sex offenders register. Rosemary is convinced that this whole scheme was Javier trying to get back at her for leaving him he had run out of ways to hurt her he had already taken the kids away so he had to hurt the other closest thing to her which was her sister Liz and also throw in the other fact that he had also been

pursuing Liz and she had rejected him like let's take both these bitches down with this allegation I don't fucking know how Javier Limon sleeps at night. He's in the documentary quite a lot and will just like bare face straight to the camera just be like, it happened. Stone cold fucking sociopath, man. He doesn't give a fuck. And by late 2012, the four had even more media traction.

And in November, Ana Vasquez was released on parole but forced to register as a sex offender. Remember that Anna was once an aspiring mechanic. And when she got out, her brother actually got her a job at an auto shop. But she couldn't take the role, because the garage was far too close to a school. Good job. Thank you. So she ended up working instead in a tortilla factory. But Anna wasn't ready to quit. Every second that she wasn't working, she was campaigning for the other three who were still in prison.

She spoke at events. She was at every screening of the short film that Deborah Asconazzi made. And every breath she took, she used to raise awareness of the case and made the point that the San Antonio Four were absolutely victims of homophobia and made the point that the San Antonio Four were absolutely victims of homophobia and a structurally violent system. We wondered for a while whether to call it institutional homophobia, but we don't think it is. I think it's just outright bigotry. It's hate. It's like a complete level of like, it's not just institutional homophobia. This spreads

further than that, you know? i've been thinking about this quite a lot because when we think about institutional homophobia i sort of immediately go to the the stephen port case of just the assumption that young gay men take drugs and sometimes they accidentally die and because of that assumption made by the police force stephen port went on to kill three or four more kids basically really young really young guys. So that, I would argue, is institutional homophobia. But I think this is just fucking blatant homophobia. They're just like, you are a lesbian, therefore you are capable of sexually abusing a child.

That doesn't seem institutional to me or hidden in any way. It's just out there. I totally take your point. I think what we're trying to say is the idea that there is a type of homophobia that exists and the type of racism that exists. In this case, it's probably, it's both of those things combined, let's be honest. All of the women involved in this are Latina women. The point is, there's the type of bigotry like that that leads to indifference and leads to assumptions and leads to a lack of interest in pursuing cases because the victims are, you know, X, Y, Z.

In this case, it's the bigotry that drives the prosecution. And it's like an active form of that that is shown here. And you're right, it's completely obvious and completely just unhidden. With Liz, Kirsty and Cassie still behind bars in 2013, things in the free world kept moving. Dr Kellogg signed an affidavit acknowledging that the testimony she had given at Liz's trial back in the 90s was factually inaccurate. Good work, Liz. Thank you. Oh, no, wait, Nancy. Yeah, Dr Nancy. Dr Nancy. Good work, Nancy. So now all of the evidence that the four had been convicted on was falling apart.

There was no scientific hard evidence. Stephanie had recounted her account of events. Things were moving. In light of Dr. Kellogg's affidavit and other findings linking many previously lawful forensic techniques no longer being seen as scientifically reliable by the academic community, Texas passed a bill that enabled people to challenge their convictions that were served on quote-unquote junk science the innocence project of texas headed by attorney mike ware who i'm sure we've come across before but i couldn't find which case it was i'm

sure he's from the uh case with uh fuck julie ria harper oh yeah well done that makes sense actually so mike weir took on the san antonio for case liz kirsty and cassie were all granted new trials and they had served between 17 and 14 years each they'd been put away in their late teens or early 20s and now they were all in their 40s in, all the women had their convictions overturned on the basis of there just being no evidence anymore. And that meant no new trials, but it also meant that there was not enough evidence to find them innocent. So in the eyes of the law, they were still convicted child molesters. They walked out of prison holding hands and fell into the arms of their families, but they all still had to register as sex offenders.

And Liz was a grandma by the time she got out. The San Antonio Four decided altogether that they would not rest until they were formally exonerated and their criminal records were expunged. Because this is the thing, if you just have your conviction overturned and you're released, kind of like the Rodney Lee Lincoln case, which was the same episode as the Julia Rea Harper if you get out and apply for jobs and stuff people will still be able to find your conviction they haven't been expunged it hasn't like gone away yeah you still have to declare it on like job applications and still have to tick felon like exactly and in this case they still had to register on the sex offenders register and I'm not sure if I can't

remember if this is a thing in Texas or not, but in some states you can't vote if you've been in prison. Obviously it affects the rest of your life anyway, but it can be really, really difficult. Exactly. Freedom isn't enough in this case. And expunging just one person's record can apparently cost up to $150,000. But the Texas Innocence Project, in this case, had the women covered. And eventually, all four women, Liz, Anna, Cassie, and Kirstie, were all found by the highest criminal court in

all of Texas to be innocent. And they were all exonerated of their crimes. Judge David Newell wrote, quote, those defendants have won the right to proclaim to the citizens of Texas that they did not commit a crime, that they are innocent, that they deserve to be exonerated. Each of the women were awarded $80,000 for each year that they had spent in prison, amounting to over a million dollars apiece. Of course, that money can't bring back the years that they lost a prison. Jesus, I mean, they were in their 20s when they went to prison. They came out in their 40s. That's like... Yeah, man.

That's your best time, you know? Just wasted life. Over absolutely nothing. Over absolutely no evidence, in my opinion. And like we said, of course, this money can't bring back the years that they lost a prison. But it has helped the women find their feet in a world that they found, of course, understandably difficult to adjust to after over a decade of institutionalization.

They all tried everything they could to start again, to pursue the dreams that they had had before their lives were shattered by the testimony of children coached by their father and a doctor who did at least go on later to recant. Liz Ramirez rebuilt her relationship with her son, who was just an infant when she'd been imprisoned. By the time she got out, he had children of his own, and Liz knew that it must have felt like she had abandoned him. But the two seem to be doing well now, and their relationship is getting stronger all the time.

Liz is now married to a woman called Angel, who she met in prison. Together they run a print shop that employs felons who have recently been released. Liz says that she sees herself in these people and is very grateful to be able to help them. She says, quote, it gives me the satisfaction to know that if I can help just one person, then I know I did the right thing. She also used the money that she received as compensation to buy her 74-year-old mum a house. Kirsty Mayhew lives in Houston with her mum. Before she was exonerated, her parole conditions did not allow her to leave San Antonio, and now her mother is ill and she's making up for lost time.

Kirsty wanted to be a vet, and she had two years of college credits under her belt. But to train for a vet will just take so many years that she's like, I just don't have the time. So now she's studying at a small vet tech school in Houston. So she's still going to be working in the area that she wanted to work at. But her sort of dream of actually being a vet has been completely taken away.

Cassie Rivera now works at a law firm run by LGBTQ advocate Rosie Gonzalez. And she still feels on edge around children, but she tries not to let it get to her. She spends her time at work learning about the systems that failed her all those years ago. She speaks to young people about how to engage with law enforcement. She says, quote, we want them to be knowledgeable about the justice system. If something like this can happen to us, it can happen to anyone. We thought we had to cooperate

fully, which we did because we had nothing to hide but we didn't have our lawyers present and there were so many things we should have done at our trial that's the terrifying thing isn't it it's just the assumption that law enforcement is on your side and sometimes they're not exactly the word justice in the justice system is very misleading because people make it makes, well, I'm innocent, so of course justice will be served. No. There was someone in the documentary, it might have been Mike Ware actually, who said, if people actually knew how little your innocence has to do with a conviction, they would be riots in the streets. I mean, I think that is the most poignant thing that we can point out about this whole entire case about so many cases that we

cover don't fucking assume just because you're innocent that you should just cooperate fully and everything will be fine and go your way know your rights yeah we've come across this before it's the whole um you know when the police lie to you and all of that sort of thing like it's this weird idea of like oh but if you're innocent you'll be fine if you're innocent you've got nothing to be afraid of it's just not the case like, oh, but if you're innocent, you'll be fine. If you're innocent, you've got nothing to be afraid of. It's just not the case. Evidently, you fucking do. Look at them.

Oh, man. Ana Vasquez was the first woman to make it out of prison. And because of this, she's had to deal with quite a lot of guilt. But she now works for the Innocent Project of Texas. And one of her major endeavors is a project that would allow all volunteers to investigate cases under the guidance of an attorney or an investigator. And she says, we're not just trying to help the wrongfully convicted that are sitting in prison, but we're also trying to change laws and the way that they're doing investigations. We want to stop people from going to prison, not just helping them after the fact. And all of the women also

now engage in activism. They speak at LGBTQ events, at Latinx events, and all in the name of raising awareness that things like this could happen to literally anyone, and all we can do is to know our rights and be prepared. A lot of people refer to this story as one of redemption, but according to our mate Mike Ware of the Innocence Project, that is the last thing that this is. The San Antonio Four never did anything wrong. They do not need to be redeemed. It is a story of hope. And he says, if they'd have

lost hope, they'd have stayed in prison forever. But they never stopped fighting. Once Liz, Kirstie, Cassie and Anna were fully exonerated, Deborah Asquinatzi made a full-length documentary that went on to win a Peabody Award and a Critics' Choice Award, amongst many others. The women have toured with this film all around the world, and they've used their platform to give back to the LGBTQ community. They've donated funds to Thrive, which is a shelter for LGBTQ young people in San Antonio. All four women are absolutely convinced that the same thing could happen today. Liz Ramirez pointed out in an interview that bills in Texas have attempted to stop gay parents adopting children to stop transgender people using public toilets. And it's

still perfectly legal in Texas to be sacked from your job because of your sexuality or gender expression. The San Antonio four are all trying to make sure what happened to them doesn't happen to anyone else. I think they're really amazing. They are, absolutely. It would have been so, not easy, but it must have been tempting to be like, I just never want to think about this ever again. Absolutely. And it's just so sad how so much of their lives,

whether it was their dreams about the jobs they wanted, whether it was the lives they could have had with their children, were all just extinguished over this. And some people say well you know the stuff about like stopping gay parents um from being able to adopt children or transgender toilet issues i of course it's all the same thing because it's about villainizing members of the lgbtq community and saying that they are in some way deviants because of their sexual orientation. And I think what's so important is that like obviously Javier Limon put them there. He put them on trial, but what kept them in prison was prejudice. Exactly. What put them away was prejudice because there was basically no evidence.

All these people needed to know was they were gay. And that was enough to say, well, if they're gay, then of course they're deviant enough to be abusing children. So let's have them. Let's do it. It's just tragic. It's an incredibly tragic story, but at least one in which those women are now free and doing something incredible with their lives. So, yeah. It's nice to do one that's got kind of a happy ending. Yeah, exactly. They got out. Justice was eventually done. I don't even know if we could say justice

was done because that makes it seem like there was ever a question not in fucking prison exactly i don't even know what was done eventually a wrong was righted and good at least they got some compensation and at least they can live the rest of their lives there we go sam silver lining at the end of that story so thanks for for listening, guys. If you would like to continue listening, continue the listening fun, you can do so over at patreon.com slash redhanded, where we will immediately now be switching over to Under the Duvet,

where Hannah and I will chat about, I don't know, some other stuff. You're going to have to come over and figure out what it is that we're talking about, because we don't know yet. Other than that, you can also follow us on all the social medias at redhandedthepod.

And anything else I'm missing, Hannah? Go and buy a ticket for that podcast live thing that we're doing. Oh, yes. We would love to see you guys there. There's already like quite a few of you coming, which is super exciting. Yeah, you guys are smashing it. You're making us look really good. Yeah, please use the link that is podcastlive.com.

When you buy your tickets, don't just go to the website willy nilly. We would love for you to come through our particular link. Not because we get any more money for it because of that. We don't. It's just because it makes us feel really great when the organisers are like this.

We're just proving a point. So basically, it's going to be like six podcasts performing over the space of two nights, but everyone in the room is there to watch Red Handed. So, about that. So yeah, definitely come hang out with us.

It'll be super fun. A lot of people being like, well, Sruti, get the blue silk out. There's space for it. There's an appetite for it. I just feel like if you show up with blue silk, I'm going to descend from the roof on a hula hoop. Oh, my God, I would love that.

Also, was it clear when I was talking about the blue silk that that was like water because i was on a voyage it wasn't just like oh yeah yeah no we all got that i really thought about it for a long time after i was like did people get that that's what i was going for it's quite hard to describe a visual artistic motif that i was going for through the medium of podcasts anyway Anyway, guys, come. It'll be fun. Other than that, here is a very long list of wonderful patrons that we have to thank for being fabulous people.

So thank you guys so much. Thank you. Clara Nichols, Nydia Segura, Shelby Wool, Rosie Brown, Melanie Lord, Anna Frantum, Karis Rogers, Bethany and Alexis Herten, Shira Lampa, Nene Siddique, Joanna Wood, Bethany Lyon, Hannah McInnish, Carolyn, Tyler Harris, Sam Taylor, Sarah Muir, Jodie G. Cara, Alison Fry, Rachel Esseltefi, Christy Mallet, Maylet, Mayolissa Rogers, Mayolissa Rogers, yeah, I think so. Phoebe Hillier-Brant, Bryn Hall, Elizabeth J, Caleb with a K, Daniel Johnston, Sarah Pauley, Pauley, yeah, Abby Nesta, Carla Reeves, Rebecca Dowling.

Rebecca's the one who won our caption competition. Oh, yeah. Well done. You're very funny, Rebecca Dowling. And if you don't know what that's in reference to, patrons, it's on the post somewhere. Go check it out. Andrew Harris, Ashley Nicholson, Liz Van Rensburg,

Samantha Montgomery, Grace Kelly. Hi Hi Grace. That's the famous person right that that song's about I don't know. Yeah who's also very dead. Yeah that's a shame. Should I? I'll go on. Emily, Rebecca Flores, Brianna Downey, Karen Roche, Lisa Marie Nathan, Erin Lee, Sara Egg, Siobhan Hewison Samantha Esposito Anthony Locke Melissa Fletcher Rebecca Pryor Sinead

Kelly Connell Danica Lamper Madison Sheehan Ellie Jessica Hollenbeck Katie Green Evelyn Valentine Emily Pryor

Kat Woodhead Verity Pernula Nikki Kayla Lewis Helen O'Neill Sarah Fim Amber Bosworth Bozarth sorrya G, Emma Nekorian, Monica, Big Peep Peking, Rhiannon Pike, Glenn Billsborough, Selena Joseph, Simon Minnie, Flo... Oh, okay.

Flo... That looks Scandinavian to me and too difficult. Flojo Reckfeld. Flo... Yeah, okay Floor Did you That looks Scandinavian to me And too difficult Floor Jay Reckmeld Floor Yeah, great Gabrielle Borham

A nobody Hey man I'm sure you're a somebody You're a somebody to us You're a five dollar patron Mr. A nobody We love you Hilary

Alyssa Hardwick Jessica Markwell Lauren Jean Heather Rae Breakbill, Sonia Marie, Katie Scuppin, Ellis Hugh, Kathy Moran, Sulesha Crockett, Mrs. Ruth Riddle, Brittany Cates, Miranda, Stephanie Johnson,

Stephen Pollard, Maria Luisa Flores, Kristen Jones, Pamela Fay, Heather Treat, Anna Zazi, oh God, Anna Zazi, Sylvia, Kristen Jones, Pamela Faye, Heather Treat, Anna Zazi, Sylvia JMS, Katie Ryan, Jordan DiStefano, Jenny Shockley, Natalie Shepis, Stephanie Briggs, Maria Boy, Sarah Robertson, Brett Romer, Laurie Beard, Jamie Chen, Kate M. Minton, Diane Malone, I'm losing the will to live. Nicola Clark, Bryn Walker, Anne Miller-Larsen. There was just no way of doing it. We're so fucking behind.

I know. Willa Keller, Brianna Stevenson, Eva Manning, Holly Ramsel, Melanie Sklaskingskla... I'm just having a stroke. Sklaskingskla... Eva Sig... I don't know. Sigarda, Jennifer Talmadge, and Stephanie Spittieri.

It's probably. Well done. Hooray, we made it. Thank you guys so much. It means the world to us. We absolutely love you all. So, yeah, stay tuned for more fun stuff. If you are a patron, we've got a very exciting interview coming up for you this month, which we will tell you a little bit more about maybe now.

I don't know. Do you guys remember when we did the Jenny Haynes episode, which was obviously the woman with 2,500 personalities? Well, when we did that and we referred a lot in the episode to a lady called Encina, who we had watched youtube documentaries with um when she'd been interviewed by med circle well oh my god horrifyingly to us at first somebody had sent encina the episode that we did where we referred to her quite a bit but thankfully encina was like oh i loved it you guys did a really great job talking about did few um and actually she said and if you would ever like any sort of more input on this, like

to talk about it more, I would love to do an interview. So we're doing an interview with her, which we are recording later today, and we will be releasing as the full episode for $10 and up patrons on the third Monday of this month. So check that out, because it's going to be super interesting. Yeah, that's it, I think. That is it. I don't have anything else to say. No, I don't have anything else to say. No, I don't have anything else to say.

Goodbye. Bye. Bye. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Combs. Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about.

Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party, so. Yeah, that's what's up. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution. I was f***ed up. I hit rock bottom. But I made no excuses.

I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real. From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is the rise and fall of Diddy. Listen to the rise and fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery Plus. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either, until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life.

I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts.