RedHanded - Episode 150 - Cyntoia Brown Long: Road to Redemption

Episode Date: June 4, 2020

One night Cyntoia Brown was picked up by a man named Johnny Allen, he offered her $150 for sex, she agreed and they went back to his house. By the end of the night Cyntoia had shot and killed Johnny Allen. She was just 16 years old. This is the story of Cyntoia's journey through the American justice system. Merch Here: https://redhandedshop.com/ Vote Here: www.britishpodcastawards.com/vote Sources: https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/1277647/Murder-to-Mercy-who-is-Cyntoia-Brown-where-is-Cyntoia-Brown-Story-Netflix https://www.womenshealthmag.com/life/a32301407/where-is-cyntoia-brown-now/ https://www.eonline.com/uk/news/1146289/the-biggest-bombshells-from-murder-to-mercy-the-cyntoia-brown-story https://www.tyla.com/entertaining/tv-and-film-cyntoia-brown-documentary-murder-netflix-criticism-viewers-boycott-20200501 https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/07/us/cyntoia-brown-release.html https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-50082326 https://www.thedailybeast.com/inside-murder-to-mercy-netflixs-deeply-irresponsible-cyntoia-brown-documentary https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/29/cyntoia-brown-kim-kardashian-become-involved-case-12628191/ https://www.refinery29.com/en-gb/2020/04/9758949/where-cyntoia-brown-now-story-netflix-documentary https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2019/oct/23/cyntoia-brown-long-trafficked-enslaved-jailed-for-life-at-16-and-fighting-back https://www.digitalspy.com/movies/a32263064/cyntoia-brown-now/ https://time.com/5828724/cyntoia-brown-netflix-documentary/ https://www.oprahmag.com/entertainment/a32301817/cyntoia-brown-husband-j-long-marriage/ https://edition.cnn.com/2019/01/07/us/tennessee-cyntoia-brown-granted-clemency/index.html See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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She even increased taxes in this economy. Yeah, higher taxes, carbon taxes. She sounds expensive. Bonnie Crombie and the Ontario Liberals. They just don't get it. That'll cost you. A message from the Ontario PC Party. Get ready for Las Vegas-style action at BetMGM,

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And welcome to Red Handed. I think this might be episode one, Fiddy. It is. I was going to say, do you know what this is? It's episode 150. 150 episodes in not even three years yet, is it? And that's not even including all the bonus episodes, the Patreon episodes, all that. Fuck, that's so much stuff.

That's mad. I was about to say something incredibly stupid. What? I was like, how have we done 150 in less than three years when there's 365 weeks in a year? So yeah, I get it now. I got there before I made my own moan. And we only take Christmas week off. We do. There are only 52 weeks, not 365. But I get it. Yeah, I know that now. Good.

We're all on the same page, guys. And this this is episode 150 I just want to say like a massive thank you and those of you who listened last week you'll already be aware of hashtag fuck awards hashtag awards gate all of that um hashtag the sex pistols never had a number one that's how I like to look at it thank you to everyone who has been messaging us, tweeting us. Just thank you so much because it does mean so much. A double thank you to the people who are tweeting the British Podcast Awards. You get extra points. That is quite funny. Yeah, carry on if that's what you feel inclined to do.

As you were. And yeah, thank you guys so much. We really appreciate it. It means the world to us. So if you haven't done so yet, or if you have a couple of spare email addresses from which you haven't voted yet, please head on over to britishpodcastawards.com slash vote. The link is in the episode description and chuck a vote our way. Once again, people are still asking. You do not have to be British. You

do not need to live in Britain. You can be anywhere in the world and still vote for us. So please do that. Do you want to know what I I did last night I got a bit drunk because we got one of those um I'm not going to say the name of the company because they are not paying me basically there's a offer code going around right now where you can get 12 bottles of wine for 50 quid and it's like nice wine and they send it to your house oh I should have emailed it to you actually so we did that and we got through all of the white because it's hot. So anyway, this is how Hannah gets drunk. Anyway, so I got a bit drunk and my latest lockdown habit is giving quite large speeches to my empty bedroom. I also relive arguments that I had years ago.

You know, all that good stuff. Yeah. And this time I imagined that we'd won the listeners choice and we gave a rabble rousing speech and we'd researched just how many of the nominees were women across the board and then we gave a percentage versus percentage of podcast listeners being women and then we burnt it to the ground I applaud drunk wine fantasy Hannah I think she's on to something so guys just vote vote vote did you see someone who tweeted being like, oh, you can vote as many times as you like. And then the British podcast was commented on the

tweet being like, it's actually one per email. And you're like, fucking all right, fucking Lisa, Jesus. But that's good to know. So it's not just people resubmitting the same email and not getting counted. So if you've got multiple emails, you can vote that many times, but you can do it for the same podcast. Hawkeye and us trying to moneyball the system. So yes, let's talk about what we're going to give you guys for being such lovely people voting for us. So basically, here's the plan. Last year, you might remember that getting us into the top 10 meant we gave you a whole extra bonus episode. It was on Carla Homolka and Bernardo. I can't even remember his first name. Ken? Paul Peter. Pete.

Ken was his nickname, the Ken and Barbie doll. I think it's Paul. Paul Bernardo. That's the one. So this year, we're going to make it interesting. If you guys get us back into the top 10, we are going to do a whole full-length extra bonus episode for you guys. That's happening.

And this year, we're going to do it as a democracy, because we're red-handed here. We love democracy, which is why you should vote. Whatever episode you guys would like us to do, we're going to do that as the bonus episode. Then, if you get us into the top three for the listener's choice, we're going to do two whole bonus extra episodes. Again, episodes of your choice. Then, if we win, if we win the listener's listeners choice category we will be giving you three whole extra bonus episodes as well as a fucking live stream for everybody because we feel like you deserve it if we win so there you go those are the awards reward scheme that we have come up with

spooky bitch merch and get in the bin match is still. It's going to be out until the 12th of June. We've also added some extra sizes because I know people are asking for an extended size range. That has now happened. So go check it out. If you want some, get some because it's going to go away in a couple of weeks. So get it while you can.

We don't know when we will bring it back. Maybe we will never bring it back. That's a lie. But probably not, at least not until October so get it while it's hot I don't know I'm just that was maybe one of our more uh one of our least put together intros but it's done now uh we've really nailed this professionalism in podcasting by episode 150 case anyone yeah can I interest you in a, can I interest you in a case? Can I interest you in a true crime case? Actually, we're going to start with a feeling. I'm really scraping the barrel of how to start

these episodes now. So let's all just take a moment to think about the worst thing we've ever done. The one that haunts you when you're trying to sleep on a hot night. Does that ever happen to you when you're trying to go to sleep and night that does that ever happen to you when you're like trying to go to sleep and like your brain's just like remember that really embarrassing thing you said 12 years ago and then you have to think about it and then you can't sleep sometimes sometimes I'm trying to think what the worst thing I've ever done is I don't know it's terrible I've clearly repressed a lot I don't. Or you're just practically perfect in every way and have never done anything wrong. I'm sure I have done hideous things. My brain's just like, nope, get it out. Get it out of here. You don't need it.

We don't need that. It's like people who only lose their memory when they're drunk on the way home, like they can never remember taxis because your brain's just like, you're in the taxi now. It's fine. You don't need this. Exactly. Self-preservation. So now that we've, apart from Saruti, all got the worst thing that we've ever done in our heads, let's have a big roll around in how uncomfortable that feeling is.

I'm not going to tell you what the worst thing I've ever done is and you don't have to tell each other either. Just think about it for a minute. And then think about what if for the rest of your life, no matter what you did to try and right that wrong, people only knew you for the worst thing you had ever done. And what if you had done that thing when you were only a child?

That's the case for hundreds of people currently incarcerated who were tried as adults, which means harsher sentences and harder prison time. The now famous Cyntoia Brown Long used to be one of them, and this is her story. Psychologists and lawyers that got to know Cyntoia in her teenage and young adult years said that from the second she was conceived, she never had a chance. And yes, that might sound incredibly determinist, but Cyntoia was certainly born into a pretty rough situation. Cyntoia was conceived on her mother Georgina Mitchell's 16th birthday. Georgina's mother, Joan Mitchell, had been married at 19. She was abused by her husband, and when she did leave him, her ex-husband sent a local heavy called Tommy round to teach her a lesson.

According to Joan, this Tommy character broke into her house, snuck up on her while she was doing the dishes, beat her and then raped her. That rape resulted in a pregnancy. Now I don't know if that pregnancy resulted in Georgina, but some say it did and some say it didn't. The documentaries that I've watched on this the families involved really remind me of the families in good night sugar babe and I'm not saying that in a sort of classist be like oh well they're all super poor and white and in the middle of bumfuck nowhere that's not the reason they're just quite you're just not really sure how much of what they're saying is true and how much of it is oh well it's not my fault look at all of these horrible things that have happened to me like

my life hasn't been easy either i don't know it's there's something about it that i i'm not sure so joan has actually been has been filmed sitting next to her daughter georgina when she's an adult and saying that she wished her own mother had had a hysterectomy at 16, implying that she believes the world would be a better place if she didn't exist and if her children didn't exist either. She went on to say, and this is a direct quote, I really think that because if I had been as educated then as I am now, I probably would not have had my children and put them through what they've gone through. I think a lot of it is genetics. I can't really imagine how having your mum say that to your face must feel.

There's just so much tragedy right from the start. It really reminds me of the Root of Evil podcast. If you guys haven't listened to it, definitely go listen to it. We go on about it all the time. It's so good. In that, the kids at the end, end well they're not kids anymore they're adults by that point but they say you know I'm happy I'm here and that I am alive but I do wish my mother had never had me it's just the level of trauma that you would have to go through to think that and I know it's the other way around here because it's the mother saying it but

fuck it's just it's heartbreaking and it really reminded me of that yeah it's the other way around here because it's the mother saying it, but fuck, it's just, it's heartbreaking. And it really reminded me of that. Yeah, it's just like your mum being like, I genuinely wish you didn't exist. Awful. Georgina's upbringing, unsurprisingly, was unbelievably tragic when she was in second grade. Her mother, Joan, who we just heard from, shot herself in the stomach in a failed suicide attempt. Mental illness in all shapes and sizes was rife in the Mitchell family. Many of Georgina's immediate family made several suicide attempts. At least three were fatal. Extreme alcoholism was also very prevalent within the Mitchell clan. Georgina also claimed that she was molested by a relative of their neighbours,

and she refers to this man as Walter Georgina says that her mother sent her off to this man who would take her off into the woods or into his house and molest her for years giving her $20 each time and Joan never attempted to stop it there's an interview with Georgina when she talks about this and she talks about how her mum did nothing about it and she says when she's like talking about her mother, because she told her everything and like nothing changed. And she just says, do you really hate me that much? That you're not going to do anything about this?

Honestly, like Sintoya never had a shot, but neither did Georgina, fucking hell. Fuck me. Again, really reminiscent of the Root of Evil story in which that kind of like allowing somebody to sexually abuse your child for money. I mean, is there anything worse? I genuinely, I can't think of it right now if there is.

And stop thinking about it if you're trying to because that's the way to being really sad. When Georgina grew up, she got a tattoo on her arm that read suicide. Georgina was already drinking heavily by the time she was 16 and pregnant with Cyntoia. In her own words, she would drink an entire large bottle of spirit every day if she had it. And if she didn't have it, she would do anything to get it. So while she was pregnant, Georgina remained in a state of total denial. She just couldn't believe it was actually happening.

So she kept drinking, she kept hanging out at her friends' houses and kept partying. And one of these friends was called Chico Brown. A lot of neighbourhood kids actually did hang out at Chico's house. His mum, Elanette Brown, was a teacher. When Elanette first met Georgina, she didn't know she was pregnant. It was 1987 and everyone wore giant jumpers with numbers on them. When Elanette's son Chico asked her if they could visit Georgina in hospital, she automatically thought something awful must have happened to her. When Chico explained that Georgina was having a baby, Elanette's immediate reaction was to ask him if it was his.

And Chico dutifully responded, no ma'am. So before we get going, Georgina is white. Elanette is black. Cyntoia is mixed race. But I think the fact that Cyntoia is mixed race plays a huge part in it. But that's for later in the story. So Cyntoia was mixed trace like plays a huge plays a huge part in it but that's for later in the story so centoia was born in fort campbell kentucky on the 29th of january 1988 and her mother georgina still a child herself didn't even know how to prepare a bottle of formula milk

and she continued to drink heavily georgina described Cyntoia as a good baby, but by the time Cyntoia was eight months old, Georgina had been introduced to crack cocaine. And soon after she started using, she started to sell sex to pay for her habit. Cyntoia never knew anything about her biological father other than the fact that he was of colour. Like we said, Georgina's white, and Cyntoia is mixed race. It became clear to Georgina that she couldn't look after the baby. So when Cyntoia was two years old, she asked Eleanor Brown to adopt her. And this adoption process was about as unofficial as it gets. Actually, the specifics of what even happened to Cyntoia, where she lived and who she lived with over those very early years in her life are difficult to even pin down.

The unofficial adoption thing is kind of a bit of a blessing and a curse because it means that because it was unofficial, Eleanor and Georgina could be in touch with each other. And they're also like in the documentaries is like conversations with them being in the same room and I think if it had been an official adoption that wouldn't be possible because I think I'm pretty sure that Tennessee has really strict adoption rules where you're just not allowed it's all just like completely shut down I do think it's interesting well important to note that like had Cyntoia stayed with Georgina she would have been raised in a white household but because she went to live with El she would have been raised in a white household but because she went to live with Elanette she was raised in a black one and I think that is something to be

aware of. We know that Cyntoia went to live with Elanette when she was two and we also know that she was kidnapped by family members at some stage and lived in multiple different places. Whether these places were official foster homes we we don't know, but it seems incredibly unlikely. The ages of zero to four are crucial in a person's development. In Cyntoia's case, this lack of stability created abandonment issues and a failure to achieve an appropriate attachment level to those around her or a healthy attitude to separation. As I've sort of inferred, there are two documentaries out there on this case, the very famous Netflix one, which is called Murder to Mercy, and an earlier one called Cyntoia Brown, Me Facing Life. Neither one go into a lot of detail about Cyntoia's life with the Brown family,

especially not the Netflix one. But Cyntoia does tell the camera in the earlier documentary, Me Facing Life, that her adopted mother, Elanette, was a teacher, and her adopted father, a truck driver. Cyntooya claims that this man beat her because he felt like it. We don't know if these claims are true. Sintoya had always believed that Georgina Mitchell didn't want her. And when she was older, she discovered that her biological mother had written her many letters that had been kept away from her by Elanette. As she grew older, Cyntoia's relationship with Elanette seems like the most stable one that she'd had throughout her entire life. She's

certainly very prominent in the documentaries and she goes and sees her every other week. So according to Elanette, Cyntoia displayed a lot of behavioral problems throughout her childhood. She had been very manipulative and became extremely upset when anyone seemed to get too close to Elanette. Cyntoia also felt safe only when it was just her and her mother alone. Cyntoia's genetic predisposition to mental illness, the alcoholism she had been subjected to while developing in the womb, the unstable nature of her upbringing and long periods of parental separation are a pretty perfect cocktail for the development potentially of a personality disorder. Now, Centoya spent much of her childhood being bounced around between regular school and Elnette called alternative school. She had several

brushes with the law for pretty minor offences and when she was about 12 years old, she started to run away from home. The first time this happened, she was gone for a few days. The next time, she was gone for a few more. And this went on and on. According to Elanette, Sintoya had decided that even the alternative school was too structured for her, and she left home for good because she knew she couldn't drink smoke or get

high under elenette's roof elenette simply wouldn't have allowed this and that's what centoia that's what teenage centoia wants to do and so that is how 16 year old centoia brown ended up living on the streets and various hotel rooms that's exactly how elenette presents it as well she was like that's what she said she said you, I've got to go and do this for me. Like she's doing some sort of master's in fine art or something. Madness. Obviously, we know that teenagers aren't good at decision making. Their brains haven't fully developed yet. They're also massively attracted to danger and to risk taking. But to leave home because you can't smoke, drink drink get high to go live on the streets it's just so tragic I can't think of another word other than tragic to sum up this entire case and Eleanor's a

teacher by the time she was 16 Cyntoia had 36 sexual partners this is difficult because I'm really not sure what the right wording is here essentially what I'm going to tell you comes from a list that Cyntoia had written herself, and I'm going to use her language to get through it because, you know, can you say relationships? No, not really. Like, can you say sexual partners? Probably not. It's difficult.

So this is what Cyntoia wrote down. So this is her words. Out of the 36 people she had slept with or who had raped her or however you want to put that, 11 of these were statutory rape. Three of these people were her relatives. Four were people that she actually liked. Nine were protected sex and five out of the 36 were sex for money. Cyntoia never told her mother, Elanette, what was happening because she didn't want anyone to know all of the things that she was doing. When she talks about this in the documentary, she just sort of said, I just didn't want anyone to know how dumb I was.

It's just so difficult because, like you said, these 36 people, you know, I don't know how much detail is sort of out there on their ages. Like, are some of them also 16? Blah, blah, blah. Are they less than that? This is by the time she's 16, so not the age of consent. So if we're looking at this from a legal perspective, from the fact that she can't consent to these sexual activities it's all it all feels like statutory rape but the fact that she doesn't tell anybody as well i know she says that she doesn't want her mom to know how dumb she is but it's also just screams of the shame i feel like she has around potentially what's happening the fact that she keeps this all a secret. In both documentaries, Elanette seems like a very caring and together mother. But you do have to wonder, what was she doing during this time?

And why didn't she help her daughter? Elanette claims that she had no idea all of this was going on. Cyntoia didn't speak to her about anything. She didn't trust her. She was convinced that Elanette wouldn't keep any secrets to herself i have a hard time with this because elenette always just says why i didn't know she didn't tell me how am i supposed to know if she doesn't tell me and i'm not a parent blah blah blah but surely there must have been something but then maybe when you've got a kid with a personality disorder and you know incredibly difficult to deal with behavioral problems maybe it is just too hard I don't know but

it's so hard because also the fact that by the age of 12 she was running away and going missing for days at a time like on one hand you are like why why didn't Eleanor do more but what does that more look like I don't know um locking her in the? I don't know. Locking her in the house? I don't know. Calling the police? Like probably not. I'm sure there was a feeling of mistrust towards societal figures, authority figures possibly. Like I don't know. In interviews later on, Elanette said that no one wants to think that their young daughter is experiencing sex, let alone with so many people, but that it wouldn't have changed her relationship with her daughter. I just can't get past the feeling that there are quite a lot of things about

Cyntoia's childhood that don't add up. And I don't know in what way 100% of the time, but I just can't shake it. Yeah, I mean, I think that by the time she comes to Elanette, I think Elanette sort of is resigned to the fact that lots of fucked up things have already happened by that point. I think, like you said, she had a lot of behavioral problems, like Eleanor says, and she runs away. She disappears for long periods of time. I think not that Eleanor was in over her head, but that it would have been a very difficult situation to perhaps know how to approach or to even know what was going on. I don't want to completely say that she has no accountability for this, but I don't know. I don't know. It's really difficult. And never having been in that situation, how difficult it is, I can't even

begin to understand. But when Cyntoia was 16 and not living with Eleanor anymore, she met a 24-year-old man called Garyon McLaughlin, which is, I think, it's up there, maybe third tier of best names we've come across on this show. But he didn't really go by Garyon McLaughlin too much. It's not very street, is it? No, it's not very street at all. Sounds like a chemistry teacher. It does. Or like Garyonglutton's fucking shortbread

biscuits or some shit i don't know gary and mcglutton's chicken pies exactly something like that uh so no he didn't go by that name instead he went by the rather street name of cutthroat cutthroat with a k as his name suggests he's quite the gentleman. To Centoya, Cut was her boyfriend. She lived with him in various hotels and motel rooms in and around Nashville. And for all intents and purposes, Cut was in fact Centoya's pimp. He regularly threatened her with a gun, raped her, and let his friends rape her too. Cut kept Centoya close to him, using the classic ego breakdown tactics. Centoya said, quote, he would explain to me that some people were born whores, and that I was one, and I was a slut, and nobody would want me but him. And the best thing I could do was just learn

to be a good whore. He sent Centoya out to sell her body for money regularly. And let's be careful here, often we use the word sex worker instead of prostitution, but that is not what this is. Cyntoia Brown was a victim of sex trafficking. And this is despite the fact that the law in Tennessee would not recognize that for years to come. We'll come on to that later in the episode, but let's be clear, that's what's going on here. So while living with Cut, Cyntoia was taking cocaine on a regular basis. And it was under these circumstances, the teenage trafficked runaway would meet the man that would change the course of the rest of her life. On the 6th of August 2004, Cut told Cyntoia that she needed to go out and earn some money.

So she left the hotel she had been staying in and headed to the road. Her plan was to get a lift to an area called East Tennessee, where she knew a lot of sex work went on. I am not sure when Cyntoia moved from Kentucky into Tennessee. I am aware that they are different states. Just don't know when it happened. But she started off in Kentucky. She's in Tennessee now. That's what you need to know. East Nashville, sorry. Just don't know when it happened, but she started off in Kentucky. She's in Tennessee now. That's what you need to know.

East Nashville. Sorry. Just to the east of the state, please. Come on, Hannah. Get a grip. East Nashville. So she knows a lot of sex work's going on there, so that's where she's headed. And we have to bear in mind here that all we have from this point on, for reasons that

will become obvious and some of you may already know, we only have Cyntoia's side of the story. And her side of the story goes as follows Sintoya walked until she was approaching something called Sonic which appears to be a drive-thru fast food chain we don't have much like it over here I was even trying to think of it have I ever been to a drive-thru in this country I think I have I think there's a McDonald's on the A41 that used to have a drive-thru near Hamill. Oh, yeah. There used to be a McDonald's in town, in my town, and they got rid of it

because that's where all the teenagers used to hang out and the Heritage Foundation was like, no more, no more McDonald's. And then they moved it all the way out

to like the industrial estate. So it's just like surrounded by factories and there's just like a McDonald's in the middle of it. And so if you want a McDonald's, you've got to go drive-thru.

Wow. Yeah, we used to go when we were at school and we were in sixth form and we all had cars, we used to go on lunch break and definitely not see who could go the fastest down the A41. Right. Never happened. I even tried to look at the menu, but it just gave me like an error message, but not even like a 503. It was just like, this website is not for you. Oh, even with your VPN? Yeah, no, didn't like it at all. Anyway, as Cyntoia approached the Sonic, a white van pulled up beside her and the driver asked her if she needed a ride.

Driving the white van was 43-year-old Johnny Allen, an estate agent who led Bible study at his local church. And he was also very active in his local community. But he was no knight in shining armor for Cyntoia Brown. Johnny Allen offered the young girl a ride. And to put this into context, I really can't stress the word young enough here. Cyntoia may have been 16 when this happened, but she looks more like 14, I would say. She looks incredibly young. Yeah, she's definitely a child. She's not, you know, a teenager approaching adulthood. It's very, very much the other way. So this man knows

what he wants and it's not a woman. So Cyntoia accepted the ride and pillar of the community, Johnny Allen, asked the teen if she was up for any action. Again, she looks so young. Fuck, it just makes my skin crawl. So Cyntoia did confirm with Johnny Allen that she was indeed up for some action and they negotiated a price. They settled on $150 for sex and kindly pillar

of the society Johnny Allen even threw in a meal from the nearby Sonic for Cyntoia. Cyntoia suggested that they go back to the hotel that she had been staying in but Johnny Allen insisted that they go back to his house instead. Now this was something that Santoya had never done before. No one would know she was there, who she was with or where she would end up. And above all, cut, her only lifeline. Wouldn't care if she lived or died. Johnny Allen drove the 16-year-old girl back to his house. He told her how important he was, how much volunteering he did and how women only wanted him for his money. What he really wanted was a woman to make love to him with, quote, He's an estate agent. It's not like he's tech startup guru.

Anyway. It's not like he's tech startup guru Elon Musk. What's going on? It's not like she gets to his house and it just comes out of the ground like like tracy island and like opens up like the bat cave like it's just quite a normal looking house the amount he goes on about himself and his importance and this old stuff about just wanting to be with a girl who or woman who desires him like it's all very in celly they're very like oh i wouldn't pay for sex i want someone to be with me because they actually want to be with me. But we do have to remember, we don't really know if this is true. This is Cyntoia's side of the story.

This is Cyntoia's version of what she says Johnny says. When they got inside the house, Johnny showed Cyntoia his gun collection. What he didn't know was that Cyntoia had her own pistol in her handbag. Cyntoia sat in Johnny Allen's kitchen and ate her food while he spoke to her about his life, reinforcing just how important he was and that he'd also been in the army and he was a really sharp shooter. Sonic cups were found in Allen's kitchen, so we at least know the Sonic food bit of the story to be true. Then Cyntoia asked if they could go downstairs to watch TV. She claims that she did this so they could go downstairs to watch TV. She claims that she did

this so she could be closer to the door. She didn't manage to make it out of the door, so she asked Johnny Allen if they could go to sleep. Her plan was to wait for him to fall asleep and then sneak off into the night. But Johnny Allen didn't fall asleep. He took off his clothes and lay down on his bed as Cyntoia pretended to sleep sleep and he started to stroke her legs. She kept pretending to be asleep until he grabbed her between her legs really hard. He gave her a fierce look. Sintoya thought that he was going to hit her. Then he turned towards his nightstand and this was the moment that Sintoya was struck with absolute and complete panic. Suddenly she realised that he wasn't going to hit her. He was going to get a gun from his bedside table and shoot her.

Sintoya decided that she was going to get there first. So she reached into her handbag, pulled out her own gun and shot Jenny. She wasn't sure that she had killed him until she realised he wasn't moving and she heard his blood gushing onto the floor. Then Sintoya grabbed Johnny Allen's wallet, his gun and the keys to his vehicle and drove off. In the documentary, I'm pretty sure it's the earlier one, she gives this really rapid description of what happened and she really is talking like a million miles a minute and she was like, I didn't know what was going to happen, had I killed him? Why wasn't he moving? If he was alive, he would have moved from

the noise and it just seems like it was this total blind panic, spur-of-the-moment action. Not that that makes it okay. No, I mean, I think the fact is that we don't know exactly what happened. We never will know. This is Santoya's side of the story. But as somebody who has been in a very violent, abusive situation with this pimp,imp cutthroat and the way he treated her like you can imagine that she would have been on a knife's edge like her temperament her like ability to be pushed over the edge into like a fight or flight situation of course I'm not saying what happened here is okay but I can see that panic ensuing coming over like a mist and her just acting out of instinct.

Yeah, it's easy to forget, I think, that someone did actually die here. I think that is something that is skated over because, you know, I mean, I've made my opinion of what I think of Joliana quite clear, a piece of shit, but like that doesn't mean he deserved to die. If he had been arrested for soliciting sex, he probably wouldn't have even gone to prison but it's it's easy because of what happens because of cintoya's story and it's very easy to immediately side with her and i think we have to be very careful because you know he does die alan's body was discovered naked in his bed and cintoya didn't remain on the run for long.

She was arrested and taken in for questioning. Footage of this interrogation is widely available and Sintoya looks so tiny and the officers interrogating her look absolutely fucking huge. They're literally like mountain men. They are really broad, burly men. And this is the thing, I feel like what we're about to go into, like the way in which she's treated by the the police the justice system like everything that happens i think that's where

it shifts and it makes it quite easy to forget that somebody died because up until that point yes she kills somebody it needs to be dealt with but i feel like it's also like unfair and biased and weighted against her from here on out that that's why and that's where that sympathy for her comes from at least like from everything you read about it oh and how I felt the police don't give a fuck they just need a conviction especially not for like what they term a teen prostitute and she's black and she's in the wrong area of town and she definitely shot him and she stole all his shit like they they have a very clear picture of cintoya brown upon her arrest of course cintoya brown was read her miranda rights and apparently studies show this is from the netflix documentary i don't know where this statistic has come from um but

apparently 90 of juvenile defendants don't fully understand their miranda rights and speak to the police without a lawyer present these officers told cintoya that if she cooperated with them and told them everything she knew, that they would speak to the district attorney for her and ensure that she was given a lighter sentence. And you spooky bitches will already know, because I love making this point, that in the United States, the police are allowed to lie

directly to your face in order to get a confession. And that's exactly what they did here. In the UK, you cannot do that, but you have only not been able to do that since the 80s. It's very recent. And it's because it false confessions, etc, etc, etc. Go and listen to whatever the fuck episode it was. I did it properly. That's me doing my really great self referencingreferencing that was just for you twitter lady so that's exactly what they did they lied to her they misled her or as they later put it in court they air quotes exaggerated they told this 16 year old girl that unless she spoke to them and told them the truth that she would get life in prison cintoya told the police the whole story just as you heard it, and she was transported to a juvenile detention centre in Tennessee

where she would be held until they decided whether to try her as an adult or as a minor. All 50 states of America allowed the transfer of juveniles to the adult system for serious charges. In Tennessee, children as young as 12 years old have been transferred to adult prisons for homicide convictions. As Sintoya was 16 years old, she was right on the cusp of criminal responsibility. If she was tried as a juvenile, she would remain in a juvenile detention centre until she was 19 years old. But if she was tried as an adult, there were only two real options either she would serve life without parole or she would serve 60 years with the possibility of parole after 51 years when you're 16 51 years before parole like doesn't feel like there's a huge vast difference between those two options

to me i don't i really don't think. I think they're the fucking same thing. Because what would she... What's 16 plus 51? Yeah, so she'd be in her... You know, come on, man. So before her hearing to decide which path the state of Tennessee would decide Cyntoia would follow,

she underwent a host of psychiatric tests. She told Dr. William Burnett that she experienced severe mood swings that would leave her crying for weeks on end. Dr. Burnett confirmed that Sintoya had a serious personality disorder as a result of her upbringing, and she had almost no impulse control. Sintoya herself said that she'll often find that she'll have every intent not to do something but two seconds later she would find herself doing it. She constantly found herself stepping out of one bad situation straight into another one. All she wanted was to feel loved so she did anything anyone told her in the pursuit

of acceptance. When shown a series of pictures depicting people doing different things and asked to tell the stories of the images all the answers Cyntoia gave were violent, angry, chaotic and none of them had a resolution. Cyntoia displayed unusually high levels of anger and negative emotion. Dr Burnett confirmed that Cyntoia's quote severe personality disorder would have directly affected her actions on the night that she killed Johnny Allen. She had a deep mistrust of people and serious paranoia which led her to believe that Johnny Allen was indeed reaching for a gun with the intent of killing her. Dr. Burnett stated that Cyntoia needed, quote, a good wholesome residential program and that three years in juvenile detention, rather than an adult prison, would give her enough time to get on top of her issues.

All of this psychiatric testing was presented at Cyntoia's hearing, but it made no difference. And at 16 years old, it was decided by the state of Tennessee that Cyntoia Brown would be tried as an adult on the charges of first degree murder, felony murder, and especially aggravated robbery. And that's not me being like, and especially aggravated robbery. That's apparently what the term is I don't know what makes it especially rather than just aggravated who knows god yeah I've never I've never come across that term before but it sounds very like it sounds very weird doesn't it when I heard it aggravated robbery and like read it in the notes I was like what that does that seems that seems very silly but I mean lawyers please tell us what especially

aggravated robbery is maybe it's like the difference between gbh and abh i don't know weird so they say hollywood is where dreams are made a seductive city where many flock to get rich be adored and capture america's heart but when the spotlight turns off fame fortune and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk Cafe, Sean Diddy Combs. Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party, so. Yeah, that's what's up. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment,

charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution. I was f***ed up. I hit rock bottom, but I made no excuses. with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution. I was f***ed up. I hit rock bottom, but I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real. From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is The Rise and Fall of Diddy. Listen to The Rise and fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery Plus. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very

personal quest to find the woman who saved my mom's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me. And it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider

some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding. And this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. A new legal system meant a new legal team for the teenager, and they quickly got to work on her defense. On the 21st of August 2006, the trial of now

18-year-old Cyntoia Brown began. The prosecution's case was simple. Cyntoia was a teen prostitute who went to Johnny Allen's house with the express intention of robbing him. She had waited for him to fall asleep before shooting him, execution style in the back of the head, stealing his money, guns and car and delivering them back to her boyfriend, slash pimp, cut. This account was supported by a medical examiner who pointed out that Johnny Allen had died facing away from Cyntoia, with his hands folded one over the other. This has used as evidence that he was asleep and not reaching for anything. They make it sound like his hands were interlaced.

But they aren't really. And we can see a situation where your hands would fall like that if you were shot in the head. But on the other hand, Johnny Allen died very much on the bed. And you could argue that if he had been reaching for the nightstand and then had been shot, might he not have fallen out of the bed from that impact rather than having remained in the bed when he died it's tricky because like she definitely definitely did shoot him in the back of the head and then take all of his stuff but you could argue that if he was asleep why would she not just steal the stuff and leave and just like sneak out why is she shooting him as well it's not like he's holding

his own hands or they're just like under his uh, like in Disney films when the princesses go to sleep. I can see both situations. I can see both arguments. I don't think his hand position is particularly conclusive. I can see how he could have been reaching and that's how they fall. And the medical examiner says that that's what they're there when he's shot. But I just don't really see how you can prove that. No, I don't know.

It's so complicated because she's so young so we can't be like well here's a history of her behaving like this like she's consistently been a victim her entire life up until that point we don't know what happened that night but if she was such a badass or just like go around fucking shooting people and stealing their stuff like I don't know why was she not able to defend herself with the same level of like rigor when she was being raped by cut's friends and stuff like that like i don't know i feel like it makes more sense to me based on how much of a victim she had been previously that it had been a panicked response like she says but again you just don't know you just don't know the prosecution asked cintoya why if she was so scared of Johnny Allen, she had eaten with him, watched TV with him and got in bed next to him.

Come the fuck on. I know. Oh, well, if he was so threatening, 16-year-old girl on your own without a friend in the world, and if she doesn't go back to that hotel with money, she's probably going to get raped. Like, Jesus Christ. Why do you hang out with him? Why didn't you just say, no, sir, I'd like to leave, please. Goodbye. A fuck off.

The fact that Cyntoia had stolen from Johnny Allen didn't do her any favours either. She was described as a child prostitute out on the rob, up to no good. Details of her traumatic childhood were not dwelt upon. I mean, I think this is the really difficult thing. I feel like

what were the defense team doing that her entire traumatic childhood, everything she had been through weren't like front and center of her defense argument. Like this is such a common link. Like so many academics, I've been reading about like sort of sex trafficking and so many academics talk about this isn't some like new idea that sort of what they call what they literally call the sexual abuse to prison pipeline and studies into this have shown that girls in juvenile detention centers this study was only in the u.s so that's what we're talking about 80 percent of girls in juvenile detention systems in the u.s had been sexually abused in their childhoods. And

disproportionately, the majority of girls in juvenile justice systems there are black, of colour, Native American, Latinx. There's a link there, isn't there? And Centoia falls perfectly within that. How this wasn't dwelt upon, how this wasn't front and centre of their argument in her defence baffles me. What were they doing? And it's not like this was in the black and white times. This is 2004. This is the thing that is shocking.

This is in the 2000s. And they didn't make this the keystone of their case. Like, I don't get it. I don't understand what's going on here. Yeah, I mean, it's ineffective counsel, that's for sure. The prosecution also played a recording of a phone call between Cyntoia and Elanette. And in this call, Cyntoia says,

I executed him, mummy. She sort of says, you don't understand what I've done. I killed him. I executed him. And Elanette told the court that her daughter had always told her that she had shot Johnny out of fear. She'd never lied about it. And this phone call was not a changed confession. It was her desperate daughter telling her to leave her behind

and, quote, don't waste your time on me. And this is the thing. Centoire seems very wrapped with feelings of guilt and negativity and worthlessness. And I feel like for her to say, I executed him, I believe, Eleanor, that she's saying it to be like, I'm a terrible person. I did this.

You should just forget about it forget about me what she will have been told by prison guards by police officers certainly by the prosecution in trial that she has to sit through I think this might actually be 2006 she's 18 when she goes to criminal trial the difference from 16 to 18 is is nuts it's a different person she looks totally different but you know two years in adult prison will probably do that to any 16 year old. And that phone call really does strike me as she's just she just needs help. She's trying to like, I'm a very guilt driven person. Thanks, Catholicism. So like, if I've done something, I need to tell every single person in my life, or I can't move past it. Like I can't get through it. And that's absolutely because I was forced to do confession as a kid. But I've never been able to get rid of it. Like I need to

I need to tell people otherwise I feel like keeping the secret is even worse. So it could be that also. I do think that her saying this and her sort of using that phraseology is very congruent with the kind of person that we know she is and the kind of challenges she's facing personally and emotionally and her personality so I'm not really surprised by that I don't massively feel like it is an admission of of an execution style hit like the prosecution is saying and also worth pointing out I think that Santoya stuck by her version of events not a single detail of her story has changed over the years. She has always said that she shot Johnny Allen because she thought he was going to shoot her.

Cyntoia's defence pointed out that in order for an arrest to be lawful, the reading of the Miranda rights to the defendant must be knowing, intelligent and voluntary. While awaiting trial, Cyntoia was taken through her Miranda rights by Dr Burnett and it was pretty clear that she had no idea that she had a right to a free lawyer. She sort of reels off the first few lines of the Miranda rights because she'd seen it on cops and everyone knows that bit

and everyone just does it in the same sort of rhythmic thing. But she didn't understand what it meant. And she certainly didn't understand that she didn't legally have to speak to the officers who interrogated her. What he does, Dr. Burnett, he's an amazing man, he takes her through line by line of Miranda rights and he asks her to put it into her own words.

Only then does she understand. So her understanding of her Miranda rights was certainly not knowing and therefore not lawful. The officers who interrogated Sintoya admitted to exaggerating what they could do to help her. The jury deliberated for six hours and returned a guilty verdict on all three counts. And Sintoya Brown, at 18 years old,

was sentenced to life in prison. So let's have a look at what that actually means. She'd already served 18 months and her earliest release date was 2055, where she would be in her 60s. And when it comes to juvenile defendants, is it right to just throw their lives away? Isn't the whole concept of homicide being the most heinous crime that human life is precious and not up to any human to take it away? Is it not the same thing? It's so complicated and it comes obviously to the argument we have a lot on this show about what is the prison system really there for?

The idea of putting somebody who committed a crime as a child, she's 16 when this happens, into an adult prison around hardened criminals is in one thing atrocious, and then secondly to give her life for something she did as a child. I'm never going to be okay with that, regardless of who did it. I just can't bring myself to being okay with that. Have you seen that tweet that's like, roses are red, I don't know, fucking biscuits are savory,

the US prison system has legalized slavery? Yeah, good rhyming and also facts. Like, I don't know, the prison industrial complex in the US, the kind of, obviously we're not talking about nonviolent drug offenses here, we're talking about homicide, but just the war on drugs, the toughening of the sentencing rules, all of that, like in the US. What is it, the country in the world with the number one rate of incarceration? I can't remember if it's US or China, but it's one or the other.

Like, US is either number one or it's number two. And leave alone the fact that Cyntoia is mixed race. I mean, I just love fucking putting people of colour in prison. I've said it once and I will say it again. Go and watch the 13th on Netflix. You've all got fuck all else to do. That is your homework this week. We're not going to get into, I'm going to save my rage

on the George Floyd debacle, travesty, whatever we want to call it, the rage-inducing behaviour that's going on right now until under the duvet. I think if we start talking about it now, I will never get back on track and talk about Cyntoia. So let's stick to the plan. But yeah, under the duvet for some rage, I reckon. The most heartbreaking shot in either documentary is Cyntoia calling Elanette from

prison after her sentencing and telling her mother that she had been given life in prison. She doesn't seem upset. She only seems concerned about her mum she says I got life mummy don't stress yourself out that's the only thing that would get to me we still have things we can do I'm still going to get old it's just a change of plan oh my god that is so so hot howling like a baby the first time I watched that Jesus Christ and you're right it's completely encapsulates Cyntoia's personality and what drives her and what motivates her. It's more about other people being let down by her, by her not being accepted, by her maybe not being loved because of what's happened. And it sums it up there. So during her time in prison, as a teenager, Cyntoia Brown was subjected to 10 months in solitary confinement.

What the fuck? Why? Why are you putting a teenager in solitary confinement? I mean, I'm sure they have all sorts of arguments for it. They would probably argue it's for her own protection. Probably is what they would say. Get her away from the adults. Maybe don't fucking put her in a juvenile detention centre.

Don't stick her in a fucking adult prison and then be like, for her own well-being, we need to put her in solitary confinement. Fuck you. That's what they always say about the nonces, isn't it? They get put in solitary confinement for their own protection. Of course. So during this time in solitary confinement,

as a teenager, Cyndoia used this as a period of self-reflection, examining her difficult relationship with men and realising her power and ability. Her biggest regret was not being honest with her mother, Elanette. She stated that she was content with fighting for her freedom and maintaining her sanity. And that's where the first documentary that was made by Daniel Berman over a period of seven years leaves Cyntoia Brown. But it is far from where her story ends. After five years in prison, a new pro bono team assembled to appeal Cyntoia's conviction. They had been motivated by

watching the documentary at screening. J. Houston Gordon was sure that there was more to her story that the court just hadn't heard. Her new legal team were particularly struck by the interviews in the Me Facing Life documentary in which Georgina, Centoya's biological mother, detailed her alcohol abuse during her pregnancy with Centoya. So they set about finding the best experts in fetal alcohol syndrome with the intention of getting Cyntoia post-conviction relief. Cyntoia's appeal took place over two days in November 2012. She was 24 years old and by this point she'd been inside for eight years. An expert witness told the appeals board that alcohol is one of the most toxic poisons to a fetus.

It can have devastating effects. And he concluded that Sentoya displayed alcohol-related neurodevelopmental disorder, resulting in serious impairment. Sentoya's IQ was much higher than her neuropsychological test results. Her functional abilities were determined to be, quote, terrible, even the equivalent to someone with again quote I'm not saying the word mild retardation and she's crying as they're reading this in the courtroom like they're literally just not I mean not looking her in the face and

obviously they're trying to like get her a shorter sentence but imagine hearing that like you are severely impaired it would have further compounded probably that feeling that she'd always had that her biological mother never really wanted her. Obviously Georgina was dealing with some massive trauma, massive issues and that's why she had been drinking so severely but to feel like before I was even born my mother was doing things that were because she didn't care about me which is what Cyntoia always felt. Yeah they've got they talked to her about it in the documentary and asked she's like, you know, I'm trying not to let it get me down, but I still heard it.

It was also noted by this expert witness that people with the same issue as Sintoya have a markedly higher rate of run-ins with the law. The prosecution counsel from Sintoya's original crime trial refuted these claims, pointing out that Sintoya's biological mother, Georgina, was now serving eight years for drug trafficking and was hardly a reliable witness.

He argued that there was no proof that alcoholism played a part in Cyntoia's gestation at all despite her test results indicating that she showed significant signs of fetal alcoholism spectrum disorder. That baffled me. He was just like, well, we don't know it's true when she clearly has like like, signs of it. It's, ugh, ugh.

And it's a scientifically proven thing. It's not like some random mumbo-jumbo that the defence is just coming up with. The judge acknowledged that Cyntoia had a disorder but did not give her any post-conviction relief. Her life sentence remained intact. Instead of giving up, Cyntooya decided that she couldn't just throw her life away. She decided to study for a degree whilst in prison. And she later said, quote, I thought to myself, why am I only just now founding out that there's no such thing as a

teen prostitute? Why are teenagers who are trafficked, like I was, being exploited and taken advantage of? But society has just been telling us we're bad, that we're promiscuous. That was when I realised we need to start educating one another about what's happening to young girls. Not talking about waist trainers, on contouring and how to be desirable to men. That was one of the direct reasons why I found myself in a hotel room with a man who trained me to do just that.

It took me 10 years to come to grips with the fact that I was actually a victim of trafficking. For the first time, Sintoya saw herself as a victim of abuse. Isn't it unbelievable? Because obviously we were raging at the original defence council for not putting forward any remnants of her past, the trauma she had been through,

the victimisation she had been through. But it is only now, after all this time in prison, that even Cyntoia saw herself as a victim of abuse. Leave alone what her defense counsel were going to do to bring it up to a court of law. Fuck, that's so tragic. So on the outside, millions of people were about to learn the name Cyntoia Brown. The law in Tennessee changed. Had Cyntoia been tried under the new legislation, she would have been seen as a victim of sex trafficking and of sexual predators, not a quote teen prostitute. It was no longer lawful for a minor to be sentenced as a prostitute. The law surrounding transferring juveniles into the adult system

had also been relaxed. So in November 2017, Sintoya's case was snapped up by Stacey Case at Fox News 12. And none of this is to say that had Sintoya been tried in 2017, she would have been found not guilty. But she would have definitely been given a lighter sentence, and she would have been eligible for parole much earlier. So this news report done by Stacey Case swept around the world and soon, hashtag free Cyntoia Brown was being tweeted by the likes of Rihanna, Cara Delevingne, LeBron James and of course, Kim Kardashian,

who even sent one of her very own lawyers to fight Sintoya's case. Just a month after her story went viral, Sintoya Brown filed for clemency on the 19th of December. A clemency hearing is a real last chance motel. It is when a prisoner appeals to the governor of their state for a pardon or a commutation of their sentence. Commutation was what Sintoya wanted. She wanted a murder in the second degree sentence, not a first degree murder one. Because had she been tried in 2017, it is likely that she would have received a second degree conviction

in the first instance. Sintoya's clemency documentation included a letter from her directly to the governor, accompanied by supporting letters from lawyers, teachers and psychiatrists alike that had come into contact with Cyntoia through her time in prison. All of them sing the praises of an incredible woman who has worked as hard as she could to turn herself around. Essentially, these letters have to convince the governor of Tennessee that Cyntoia Brown was worth more to society on the outside than she was behind bars. One of the most poignant letters of support

came from Appalach prosecutor Preston Shipp, who had been on the team upholding Cyntoia's original conviction during her appeals process before he ever met her. Years later, he realised that the young woman he had recommended stay in prison until she was in her 70s was the best in his class. He describes her as luminous, and he attended her clemency hearing and read a statement in her favour. He just couldn't equate that the Cyntoia he met in class was the Cyntoia that he had actually he'd said yep 51 years that's it good job and he apologised to her when he realised who she was and she just said you're only doing your job how are you to know? She's incredible. When Cyntintoya herself addressed the clemency board,

made up of six people whose job it was to advise the governor on his decision, she said, quote, What I did was horrible. I killed Johnny Allen. He's gone. And it stayed with me this whole time. I was locked up at 16. Like, that was it.

I have no choice but to live a different life. After the clemency hearing, which only 2% of inmates are ever granted, the six officials were not in agreement. Two thought that Sintoya's sentence should remain the same. Two thought that it should be lessened to 25 years. And the two left thought that the sentence should be reduced to one appropriate for second-degree murder, which could mean an imminent release. All these people can do is advise the final decision was down to Governor Bill Haslam alone. And in January, he came to a decision. Cyntoia Brown's sentence was commuted to 15 years, which meant that she would be moved from general population into a transferal slash

re-entry program and released from prison in August the same year. Governor Bill Haslam told NBC News, quote, imposing a life sentence on a juvenile that would require her to serve at least 51 years before even being eligible for parole is too harsh, especially in light of the extraordinary steps Ms. Brown has taken to rebuild her life. He also added that Cyntoia Brown quote really had done what we hope happens when people are incarcerated and with this obviously we talked about the fact that lots of celebrities came out and were backing Cyntoia rightfully so but you have to wonder how much celebrity pressure and the tutosphere had to do with this decision. So is it possible that granting Cyntooya clemency was meant just as a distraction from the almost 200 other people who remain

incarcerated on the mandatory life sentence for crimes they committed as minors? Possibly. I don't know. A question I do have or did have about the whole Centoya Brown case was the stand your ground law. Not every state has it. So some states do. Tennessee is one of those states that has the stand your ground law. In that case, and the stand your ground law, just as a refresher, we have spoken about it briefly. Again, I can't remember in which episode, but it was in the episode,

whichever it was, where we were talking about that man Zimmerman when he shot Trayvon Martin. Just as a refresher, basically the stand your ground law in states that do apply it is that an individual has no duty to retreat from any place where they have a lawful right to be that they may use any level of force if they reasonably believe the threat rises to the level of being an imminent and immediate threat of serious bodily harm. So Tennessee has this. I guess you could be like, well, they have a lawful right to be, but she was invited into that house. She was there as somebody who had been invited by the person who lived there to be in that property. And I wondered why. Why did the defense never bring this up as a stand your ground argument? Because you don't have to show anything.

They just have to reasonably believe. The person who commits the murder or does the shooting or whatever it may be only has to reasonably believe that they are an imminent and immediate threat of serious bodily harm. There doesn't have to even be any kind of gun being waved about. Just the threat or perceived threat is enough. So why was that never brought up? I mean, there's an invisible footnote to that law, which is only counts if you're a white man

and the person you're shooting is black. That's literally it. Yeah, and it is a valid point to bring up because I really, really, when we were reading this, I really was like, why is that never mentioned anywhere? So actually, when I did look at it, you're totally right, Hannah, because I found a study that had been done into this. And it really does feel like the law, the stand your ground law is particularly selective about who the law deems to be worthy of self-defense and worthy to stand their ground. Because apparently a 2013 paper from the Urban Institute that was analyzed by the FBI found that the stand your ground law was only justifiable, apparently in a legal sense, in 17% of cases where a white person shot a black person, but only 1% of cases when a black person

shot a white person. That is astonishing. It feels like when you look at those statistics, it feels like a get out of jail free card for white people to kill black people or people of colour because they perceive a threat. And that's how it's being applied in a legal sense it's horrific it's no secret that Tennessee is a pretty right wing place to be and I just think it is actually you know fuck it I'm gonna say it is impossible to imagine a world where the governor of Tennessee would grant clemency to a black woman who shot a white man if it hadn't been for international celebrity pressure I think that's it. And it's it's a smokescreen because he's like, oh, well, the laws have changed now, but I don't actually

have to do anything about the hundreds of people who were given mandatory life sentences for stuff they did as children, as long as everyone looks. It's just like, look over there, look at Cyntoia Brown. Like it's not it's a smokescreen. I agree. I do agree. And I also feel like she wasn't released because of the Stand Your Ground law. It wasn't like that's what they were using retrospectively. They were released because now she was being recognised as a victim of sex trafficking. It still wasn't because they were saying that it was in self-defence. It just felt like, oh, well, fine, we'll accept that now she's a victim of sex trafficking.

So, like, off you go. And look, she's really victim of sex trafficking so like off you go and look and look she's she's really turned her life around in prison the stuff that centoria brown did in prison to turn her life around feels like it was probably despite the fact that she'd been put in an adult prison at the age of 16 not because she was in prison so angry angry at the award angry at the fucking judicial system angry at this fucking stand your ground bullshit. Like, I need a chill pill. Right, so in August 2019, Cyntoia Brown was released from prison.

She went in at 16 and came out at 31 after 15 years incarcerated. And I know everyone changes after a decade and a half, but she really is a completely different person. Like the way she moves, the way she talks, absolutely everything is different. Have a look at the documentaries and you'll see what we mean. So where is she now? Cyntoia has dedicated her life to God and helping women like her. She's also written a book and got herself an extremely good looking husband. My God, he's fit. I couldn't get over it.

I haven't actually seen a picture of him. Oh, he's hot. I think even you would think he's hot. Even I would think he's fit. I couldn't get over it. I haven't actually seen a picture of him. Oh, he's hot. I even think you would think he's hot. Even I would think he's hot. You're pickier than I am. I'll shag anything. Oh, yeah, he's hot. Confirmed. Saruti approved. Good for you. Good for you, girl. So, hot husband is called Jamie Long.

He's a Christian hip-hop musician. And he actually married Tintia while she was in prison. He saw her on the news and felt compelled by God to write to her. He burned the edges of his letter to make sure it stood out from the crowd. Four months after this letter was sent, he went to visit Cyntoia in prison and claims that he knew as soon as he saw her that Cyntoia was his wife. I can't even get a fucking text back out here, man.

What? Mate, I know. saw her that cintoia was his wife i can't even get a fucking text back out here man what i mean i know she's getting burnt edges letters in prison i'm like cintoia mate tell us tell us your tips well starts off going to prison at 16 yeah i mean okay something else um maybe it's getting on the news maybe i should just do like a big streak or something and then someone will be like that's my wife I don't know why streaking was my immediate place to go I don't know show off those goods Hannah you go streaking I'm not gonna stop you but now if anybody does know any um eligible normal men out there who maybe want to date a couple of podcast hosts i don't know send them our way please send me a burnt edge letter i'm not even kidding so when cintoya got out of prison her gorgeous husband had already got a house ready for her

in nashville he'd even filled the wardrobe with clothes he's amazing oh Oh my god, stop. No, I couldn't. I can't. I refuse to stop. He's the best. And the couple still live in Nashville to this day. Cyntoia will remain on parole until 2029, and that does come with serious restrictions. She won't be able to vote until her parole is lifted. But Cyntoia is determined to continue to help people in the same situation she found herself in all those years ago. When she first went to prison, she struggled with anger and shame. She said, quote, I blame myself for a lot of the situations that I was in, and I was really harsh on myself.

And it was a process of learning to forgive myself to understand that every situation was one that I was placed in. It wasn't like I was just willingly making these decisions. I was a child. She hopes that people can learn from her story, saying, quote, I think if I had met someone who had been through those situations and who could tell me how they got through it, how I could avoid some of the same mistakes that they made, that I could see myself in that person. I think it would have made a big difference. So she set up a non-profit called the Foundation for Justice, Freedom and Mercy to help speak on behalf of all the other Santoias who are still locked up. Her goal is to advocate for legislation that would change in particular how juveniles are

sentenced and she attained that goal on February the 25th of this year 2020 when she testified in front of the Tennessee Senate for the passage of a new bill SB69 by Democratic State Senator in Memphis. This bill would reduce the amount of time a juvenile who is serving a life sentence with parole from 51 to 30 years. And as if that wasn't enough, she created the grassroots learning initiative for teen trafficking, exploitation and rape, also known as Glitter. And there is, of course, a reasonably large Netflix-shaped elephant in the room that we have not yet discussed. The streaming giant repurposed a lot of footage from the Berman documentary, which was made in 2011. Well, released in 2011, it was made over several years.

They did not consult Sintoya at all. And this is strange because at the end of the documentary, you can make your own minds up whether you're going to watch it or not, but at the end of the documentary, there's a shot of Cyntoia sort of walking down a path as an adult, very much not in prison. So what I don't understand, if all of the footage was repurposed from the Berman documentary and Cyntoia didn't consent to that, how do they have a shot of her at 32

at the end that they round off the documentary with? I don't know. Maybe they got it from a news channel. Maybe they bought it from someone. That's obviously entirely possible. And we know that she didn't, I don't know if consent is the right word, she wasn't consulted on this documentary, because she tweeted, My husband and I were as surprised as everyone else when we first heard the news

because we did not participate in any way. This tweet has now been deleted, but it has led to a lot of people boycotting the documentary. There are some rumours that Netflix has now teamed up with Sintoya and will be promoting her book via an exclusive interview, but I couldn't really find anything confirming that. Many news outlets have reached out to Netflix for comment, but they have not been forthcoming.

I don't know what the procedure is there. Aren't there laws against people in prison making money off their shit? You know, like, because I think people's main issue is that Netflix haven't paid her and then, you know, making all this money and using her story. And I understand that. She wrote a book when she was in prison. She's clearly making money off that. But I don't think it was published while she was in prison she's clearly making money off that but I don't think it was published while she was in prison yeah I don't know I don't know the legalities behind that um or the technicalities it feels unethical from the outside but again we don't know we don't know what really happened like I guess like you said everyone should just make up their own minds about whether they want to watch it and support yeah I mean, I mean, boycott it if you want,

but it seems like Cyntoia has not made any outright requests for her followers to take any sort of action. What comes next for Cyntoia, only time can tell. She seems to have a lot of projects in the works, a lot of irons in the fire, and her overarching goal remains and always has been, quote, using my experiences to help other women and girls suffering abuse and exploitation. And there are so many girls and women who do need her help,

especially women and girls of colour, I think, because I just think there's absolutely no denying that institutional and structural racism, like we talk about all the time on this show, permeates every layer of our societies. But specifically here talking about the US, it absolutely keeps black people and people of colour stuck in poverty. And I was reading some interesting reports on sort of sex trafficking, human trafficking. And I think we've mentioned this before, and don't know which episode, there's more slavery today than there has ever been because of the sex trade because of what's going on in that space and when you keep people of color black people in a state of poverty because of structural racism it absolutely makes women and girls from

those communities way more at risk to things like sex trafficking and generally getting in the trouble with the law things like that and as if you need me to say this, it isn't just speculation because I looked this up because I read it a really long time ago, but the Bureau of Justice in the US conducted a two-year study into all national human trafficking cases in the US. And the stats they released are shocking, but not wholly surprising based on what I just said, to be perfectly honest because

they found the 94% of sex trafficking victims in the US were women, were women and girls, but they found that 40% of confirmed sex trafficking victims were black. This is despite the fact that black people only make up around 13% of the US population. So it's clear that the victims of sex trafficking are disproportionately black women and girls. And also they found that most of the buyers, I guess, do we call them? I don't know if that's the right terminology, but the buyers involved with sex trafficking are often upper to middle class white men. In some counties that they studied in this particular report they did, the percentage of buyers were as high as 80% white men. So there

is a huge disproportionate issue here in who is being victimized and who are the people perpetrating it. So yeah, I think there can be no argument that her race played a part in this in terms of her risk of sex trafficking and then also potentially in the way that the justice system dealt with her with the whole stand your ground thing. Yeah, so the evidence is out there. Just open your eyes.

Stop denying that race affects things because it does. And that's that. And the studies prove it. So it's not our opinion. And that is my hot take. Yep, that's our hot take. Race affects shit in light of everything that's going on. We didn't know when we chose this episode everything that was going to be going on in the US at the time of the release.

But yeah, we're going to talk about that more in Under the Duvet. So if you would like to, you can come on over and join us there if you are a $5 and up patron. Otherwise, what else? Guys, please, please, please, please. We're going to keep going on about this. Just please go vote for us in the listeners choice. And also, like we said, get your hands on some merch if you would like it. And if you would like to listen to some Patreon bonus content, we've got some fucking great content coming out for you this month.

We have got an interview with the former defence counsel for Jodie Arias, Kirk Nermey. We're going to be releasing that at some point. I can't remember because the calendar's not in front of me. We've also got an interview with a lady whose child was actually diagnosed as a psychopath. And she's going to be talking to us all about that in some bonus content we've got coming out later this month. So if you would like to, come on over to Patreon to listen to it. So here are some lovely people who have been patrons

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