RedHanded - Episode 163 - Show & Tell: The Murder of Rachel O'Reilly

Episode Date: September 3, 2020

LONDON PODCAST FESTIVAL TICKETS When Rachel O'Reilly was brutally murdered in her own home in County Dublin, her family were told that it was a home invasion gone horribly wrong. Her devastated parents thought they'd never set foot in her house ever again; that was until Rachel's husband Joe invited them over. But to their horror Joe insisted on showing them the grisly blood-stained walls and made them watch as he re-enacted how he thought Rachel had been killed...Alarms bells rung loud and clear... Sources   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hannah.

I'm Saruti. And welcome to Red Handed Regular. Red Handed Original. Full Fat Red Handed. Full Fat Red Handed. That's it. That's the one. Oh my god. Can I say, you guys are the fucking best at naming things. Don't know if you've seen this, Hannah. I don't know if you're on board with it. But I like honestly chuckled when I saw this. So that's how I knew. For me, it was was a winner so we've started doing these live streams every month for $20 plus patrons and don't worry we're working on a way to make it um so that if anybody wants to join one you guys can just pay a one-off fee to join each one that is coming soon so stay tuned but we asked what should we call these

because um they've really been focused around cases where there are a lot of theories. Is it this? Is it this? We did the Madeleine McCann one. Last week we did the Susan Powell one. And we were like, the name's not really good. We're working on theory theatre. Has anyone got anything better? Somebody said red-handed, red-haunted and red-herring.

Oh my God. That's so good. But it also makes me feel so stupid. Like, how did I not think of that? I didn't think of it. I love it. 90% of what we do is think of stupid names for shit. Like, why did this one slip under the radar?

It's so good. I love it. So if you're on board, Hannah, I think we call it Red Herring. I think we call it Red Herring. Red Herring's live. Oh oh my god I love it for various contractual reasons obviously we have an employee now young Sabbath and uh I had to do a contract for him and in this contract it said oh you need to have an employee handbook which we've called the red handbook and it has two bullet points under the disciplinary section which the first one is don't be a dick and the second one is dicks will be dealt with accordingly and I feel really good

about it I think it covers all bases love it so it's going to be called red herrings live or something like that from now on it's super exciting we're going to try maybe even start doing them once a month if you guys really like them we'll pick a case where it's I guess a bit of a mystery and a bit contested we ask you guys to send us your theories Hannah and I do a quick rundown of the actual case and then it's super interactive you guys can jump in at any time we answer all your questions we take on board everything you're saying then we read out your theories and I'm not going to say we judge them we analyze them we analyze them that's what we do. And it's just really, it's just fun.

It's a good time. Exactly. So stay tuned because we're going to start advertising how you can get in on the action, even if you are not a $20 plus patron. So stay tuned. That's it. That's all I got today.

Other than this case we're about to talk about, of course. Yeah. The meeting of the red-handed town hall is adjourned. Right. So, Ireland is where we're going, where we haven't been for fucking ages. And actually, this is one of our most requested cases of all time, I'd say. There's been fucking loads of you gagging for this one.

Do you know what? It's because I think the Irish are super, our Irish listeners are super, like, case suggestee. They're very, like, they pick a case, and they all run with it as a group, I found. Because they did that with Elena O'Hara and with Anna Creajal,

I thought. Yeah. Also, yeah, and our Dublin numbers are fucking triple our London numbers. So London's actually letting us down on that front.

I know. So I feel like everyone in Dublin is listening to this show. Hello, Dublin. Hi. Yeah. So just really capturing

that fallen Catholic market is absolutely my USP. So, actually has a lot of similarities to the Elaine O'Hara case that we covered many a moon ago, but not just because they're both Irish and also not because they both happened in and around Dublin. It's because they both include an arrogant man who thought he had pulled off the perfect crime. There's no BDSM in this one. That's a major difference between Elaine O'Hara and this one. If you don't know what we're talking about, about Elena O'Hara, it's the best title Suru's ever come up with, which is, what was it? Oh, Ball Gags, BDSM. I think it was

Bondage, Ball Gags and BDSM. I think that's what it was. Thank you. The other one that I am particularly proud of that was Scrap Metal Sex Toys. Yeah, also a winner. Is there a theme there for you, Suru? I don i don't know oh you're right i really rough sex really getting your creative juices flowing oh hello what was it that guy said on the live stream to you when we were the uh jodie arias lawyer when you were talking about how her like sex went even that band he was like, we're learning about you. And I was like, all right, pack it in, mate. Jesus Christ. Have a day off. Have a day off. Oh, God.

Okay, right. We are on the 4th of October, 2004. And Rachel O'Reilly, not the Countdown presenter, actually a 30-year-old mother of two, didn't show up to pick up her kids from school. Rachel lived with her husband, Joe, near a village called the Knoll, which is in North County, Dublin.

The Knoll is just past Dublin Airport, and although it's about a 40-minute drive into the city of Dublin on a good traffic day when the wind is blowing in the right direction and you've made the appropriate sacrifices to your ancestors, the Knoll is very much in the country. The nearest local landmark to the O'Reilly family homestead was Murphy's Quarry, which may seem insignificant, but post it into your brain box because you will need it later. Rachel and her family had lived in their country's Seaview Sporting bungalow for about a year,

and according to Joe, they were, quote, living the dream. Although, we're all about to find out together as a family that that is very far from the truth. When Rachel didn't show up that day in October 2004, the school did what any school would do. They rang Rachel's home phone and then her mobile, but both of them went to voicemail. So they took the next logical step and rang the children's father, Joe, who was at work in his office in Dublin. Joe worked for Viacom. He essentially sold advertising space. And at that particular moment in time, I'm pretty sure he was working on bus advertisements, which I would imagine is,

do you remember that Megabus thing where the like Megabus logo man was on the side of the bus and the exhaust pipe just looked like his penis? Do you remember that? So I imagine Joe's job was to stop that kind of thing. If you haven't seen it, we'll post it somewhere it's fucking hilarious i love stuff like that do you remember the did you ever see the uh episode of

the thick of it where i think her name is nicola the the lady who's the um minister in it she's giving there's all these like accusations flying around that she's been corrupt she's done some dodgy dealing with her husband's business and And then Malcolm Tucker is watching her on TV and she's standing in front of a sign that's been cropped to just say the word bent behind her. And he's like, move, fucking move. Oh, it's just perfection. I'll find a clip if I can.

So after the school ring him, Joe also rang his wife and left a few voicemails, which we have got for you in the form of MP3 clips that we stole from the internet. Rach, this is Joe. I tried your number now. I don't know how many times. You're not in Jackie's. You're not in your mother's. I'm now really, really, really worried about you. Please call me. Please call. It isn't funny. This isn't like you. Rach, it's me again. I'm just on the M50. I've spoken to your mother. She's going to pop on out.

Please ring. I've been crying. You have me worried. I don't know. Please talk to me. Please. As you can hear from these voicemails, they become increasingly urgent. Joe definitely sounds worried. But instead of ringing like another school parent who maybe like, you know, shares the school pickup and drop off with Rachel, he instead rings his mother-in-law, Rose Callerley. And this in and of itself was a bit of a turn up for the books because Jo rarely spoke to Rose and Rose had never particularly warmed to him either Rose is such a bad bitch she is just like the epitome of scary Irish mum like you could not

pay me to get on the wrong side of that woman like she's so stern but also like you can tell that she's like a really lovely warm person but also just like so like you don't fucking fuck with no don't fuck with me and don't fuck with my kids damn right and I feel like Joe just comes off in this entire thing as just being like too perfectly put together like okay what we said about him describing their life together is them living the dream. Now, don't get me wrong. In the past year that I have been a full-time podcaster, I have described myself as living the dream. But hear me out. I feel like if you are romantically involved with somebody and they describe your life together as living the dream, they're going to murder you.

That's what I feel like is going to happen. Do not trust that person. That's what I feel like is going to happen. Do not trust that person. That's what I think. But anyway, so that day, out of the blue, unexpectedly, Joe rings Rose and asks her to go to the house and see if Rachel was there. He at no point during this conversation offered to go to the house himself. Instead, Joe took himself off to pick up the kids. One of the teachers even noticed that he hung around for a bit at the school, which hardly seems like the behavior of a man who didn't know where his wife was. And by his own admission, as we heard in that recording, had been crying because

he was so sick with worry. And to the outside world, Rachel didn't seem to have much of a reason to disappear. She had a normal life. She had met Joe when they were both working at a department store together she had been 17 and Joe was 19 she had worked on the shop floor while he worked in stores Joe noticed her and discovered after some covert reconnaissance that the athletic and beautiful Rachel played on the softball team. So he showed up at her team's practice one day and asked her if she wanted to go to the pitches. She agreed. And soon they were an item.

It's not creepy if you fancy them, is it? No, no. But if you don't, that's pretty weird. Exactly. But I do also just admire like what a simple time it was where like you could just like fucking work in a store meet a guy go play softball he turns up and asks you to go to the fucking pictures honestly i'm having to swipe past pictures of men talking about fucking fisting and whatever to try and find my dream man

honestly it's oh isn't it just like also what you know like one of the hinge prompt prompts is like i'll change my mind about dot dot dot one of mine is the bbc changed my mind and the amount of people who've been like do you mean the television network or oh I don't know mate you tell me I haven't changed it yet that's amazing I feel like I'm gonna have to I just can't come up with anything else I have I'm not good at the that's amazing the old prompt roonies oh my god that's so funny I love it anyway uh sorry mum um so rose and the rest of rachel's family were happy that that she was happy on the face of it joe seemed to be a decent person who said he would look after their girl the two got married in april 1997 at the church of the blessed margaret ball in the north of dublin sidebar short hell and hot takes for you it is quite unusual for a catholic church to be named

after someone who's definitely not a saint so i had a look at it and this margaret ball character turns out she was a prominent 16th century socialite and married to the lord mayor of dublin and she was imprisoned in the dungeons of dublin castle and starved to death for being a dirty catholic because in the 16th century very unshilled time time to be a Catholic in any of the Tudor realms of which Ireland was one. I don't care what anyone says. The amount of people who try and tell me that Ireland was never part of the empire literally hang me.

I can't cope with it. Anyway, Margaret Ball was known for hiding papists in her house and that is what landed her in the dungeon. She was beatified by JP2, which is my affectionate term for John Paul II. And there was also, I think, 13 other Irish martyrs were beatified at the same time as her, but she was never whole hog canonized as a saint. Basically, if you're beatified,

you can be called blessed, but you can't be like saint whatever. The parish I used to go to when I was a kid was called St. Columbus obviously like to be a saint you have to have a miracle dedicated to you Saint Columbus miracle was sending the Loch Ness monster back to hell how believable is that stop no seriously sending it back to hell yeah yeah yeah when was the Loch Ness monster fucking demonic I just thought it was a fucking fish who knows yeah i think he might have also brought a monk back to life i don't know like i remember looking up and being like this is so stupid like how did no one bring this up i mean i know why no one brought it up that is incredible yeah i'm learning so much in this highland hot takes i shout out to saint columbus

in chesham i hope everyone who is in and around Chesham every time you drive past it now will be like, stupid. Another thing I learned, a fun Catholic fact that I must have missed in the literal years I spent inside St. Columbus learning about what a terrible person I am, is that Mary, as in Holy Mary, Mother of God, not the foot-washing Mary Magdalene, was immaculately conceived herself, meaning that she was born without the pesky original sin that the rest of us have to deal with, and therefore the only appropriate woman to give birth to the Messiah. So poor old Joseph never stood a chance. Not once.

He really knew how to pick them, didn't he? Yeah. And I imagine her parents didn't keep it a secret that she was immaculately conceived, but Joseph was like, that's her, that's my girl. God, I'm having it. How did I not know that? I didn't know that. Is that common knowledge? I feel like i should have known that that is amazing anyway also watching a really um interesting youtube video about hijabs recently and one of the ladies who was presenting it was like have you ever seen a statue or a picture or an icon of

mary without a hijab no you haven't won't happen Won't happen. Mind blown. You won't do it. You won't do it. But you know what you will find? Loads of white Jesuses everywhere. Which is quite funny. But anyway. Yeah, that's enough Helen hot takes for you. And I'll put my religion bashing away to the side for the rest of the show

because it's not pertinent at all. But I did enjoy it. Thank you for that sidebar. You're welcome. Now, another interesting fact, which is as fun as Hannah's facts were, this one is much more pertinent to the story, is that Rachel was adopted. She found her birth mother when she was 18 and her name was Teresa Lowe.

And Rachel and Teresa had actually formed a really close relationship. Rachel even made friends with Teresa's other daughter and they all had a lot of fun together. Although, as Rachel got older and more married to Joe, Teresa noticed that there were two sides to Rachel's husband. Rachel would often excuse the both of them from family events because of what she called Joe's dark depression. Teresa took this to mean that there was a side to Joe that only Rachel saw. And Teresa was right. Other members of the Calla Lee slash Lowe clan noticed some other things about Joe that were not exactly like outright offensive,

but they were considered to be a bit off. He never really mixed with the grown-ups at family gatherings. He would either play with the children or slope off to watch TV on his own. That would drive me absolutely insane. Are you joking? It's a family gathering. I don't want to be here either, mate. You're not legally leaving me to deal with this on my own. No, you definitely can't slope off to watch TV.

You can fucking hang out with the kids, because that's even worse than what I want to do, which is just sat here with a glass of wine in my hand. But TV, that is unacceptable. You might as well sit in a corner and fucking wank. That is so unsociable. You might as well just go and sit in the fucking car. That's literally the same. What also Joe would do, which is slightly less irritating, but just more mean, he'd poke fun at Rachel in front of other people about her weight. She found it quite difficult to lose her baby weight, which is, you here nor there really he was just not very nice

but no one thought that it was a signifier of much more serious abuse the final part of this trio of toxicity is that Joe was well known for having a wandering eye he didn't try particularly hard to hide it either especially not at the gym he would get all sorts of numbers from all sorts of women and lie about being married and he did this even though rachel's birth sister who she was close with as we mentioned worked at the very same gym he's in plain sight like he does not give a single shit i feel like and and i'll like come back to this as we go through the case but I really feel like Joe is the kind of guy who almost enjoys it. He's kind of like strikes me as a bit of a like I don't know if exhibitionist is the right word but a man who likes to push the boundaries.

Like he's bored with his life and he just wants a bit of almost he wants a bit of drama or he wants a bit of a thrill of almost getting caught with all the shit that he's doing. Yeah I also think that he knew Rachel wouldn't stand up to him, especially if she's making excuses for him all the time anyway. If he doesn't want to go to something, they don't go. Obviously, I don't know I wasn't there, but I'm getting the feeling that she probably just did what she was told. So now that we have a bit more background on Rachel and Joe,

let's go back to the 4th of October and pick up where we left off. So, like we said, Rose, who is Rachel's mum, is on the way to the O'Reilly family home in the North. And Joe is hanging around at his kid's school for some reason. As soon as she got the call from her son-in-law Joe, Rose felt in her bones that something was very wrong. And this feeling only intensified when she arrived at the bungalow and saw Rachel's car was still outside. Why would Rachel not be answering the home phone if her car was there? It was very unlikely that she had just popped out for a walk or something. This is rural Ireland. If you're going anywhere, you're driving. So Rose parked her own car and let herself into the house via the patio doors.

As she walked through the kitchen, she noticed things all over the floor. It looked as if the place had been ransacked. She moved through the house, calling out to Rachel, but there was no reply. Rose walked from room to room, until she found herself in the bedroom, where she finally found her daughter Rachel, face down, not breathing. Rachel had been severely beaten. She had sustained between four and nine blows to her head to this day.

We don't know how many. The blood that had gushed from her head during the assault had congealed and it looked like jam. There was blood spray all up the walls and even on the ceiling. Clearly this had been an extremely violent attack and it was immediately obvious that Rachel, the 30-year-old mother of two, was dead. Rose immediately knew that her daughter had been murdered. This was no accident. When Joe returned to the house with the children he had collected from school, Rose met them outside agonising over how to tell them what had happened and what she had found. And as Joe got out of the car, he smiled at her. The police arrived at the house in the knoll around 2.30. Remember,

the police in Ireland are called the Garda, so that's what we'll be saying from now on. They arrived at 2.30 that afternoon and inspected the house. And their immediate prognosis was that this was a burglary gone wrong. An intruder or two entered the bungalow probably by the open patio doors and they were surprised by Rachel so they killed her. This theory was backed up when some items were found to be missing from the house but they weren't missing for long. A missing camcorder, handbag and jewellery box was soon found by the guarder in a nearby drain. Also, interestingly, yes, those items do go missing, but there was about a thousand euros in cash in Tupperware boxes in the house that were

very easily found. Like you just had to open a drawer and they were still there. Yes, indeed. So Joe O'Reilly confirmed that these items that were found in the drain did belong to him and Rachel. But the forensics team were pretty certain that these items had been placed under the water in the drain and not mistakenly discarded. They hadn't been dropped. They'd been strategically arranged. Suspicious yet? Good. And Rose was suspicious too. She didn't know why yet, but she had a creeping feeling that the burglary was a farce. It always felt staged to her. Roadblocks were set up by the Gardie in various spots at various times of day for the next few weeks in the area. All of the members of staff from the nearby Murphy's Quarry were questioned, but neither of these actions

turned up any leads. Naturally, of course, the husband, Joe O'Reilly, was questioned. And that is, according to him, how this morning went. Joe and Rachel had been sleeping in separate beds after a row, so he got up in the morning, early doors, and was out of the house just before six. This was apparently pretty normal for him. He had a 25-mile commute to work, and before he got to work, he usually went to the gym. And the 4th of October was no different. He drove himself to the gym, met his mate Derek Kearney and they did whatever dad workout they wanted to do that day. Then they drove separate cars to the office and then to Broadstone Bus Depot which was 12 miles away from

the Nall. After they had done their bus job which I don't know if it's not just checking that the fucking megabus man's penis isn't the engine exhaust possibly it's just doing a bit of spell checking I don't know what it is they were doing but something along those lines um and after this bus advert experts Derek and Joe got back in their separate cars and made it to the Viacom office by 11am. Derek corroborated this story and therefore Joe had a watertight alibi. After all, he couldn't have been in two places at once. At least for now. That's the thing that's important to sort of figure out

is that his office is 25 miles away from where he lives, right? So that's a 40-minute journey plus plus. And then even the bus depot is still 12 miles. So what the Garda are thinking at the moment is that it is physically impossible for him to have gone there, been seen by Derek at 10am at the bus depot and then made it home and then back to work by 11. It just doesn't make sense time-wise. And that makes sense as a rationale at this point.

Garda continued their search of the area. They searched the quarry and the nearby lake for evidence, but none was ever found. The blunt object that killed Rachel has never been identified or discovered. But Joe started to make quite odd comments, basically to the effect of, well, if I was going to hide some evidence,

I would hide it in water to make sure I got rid of the DNA. And he kind of says it in a way that's like, oh, well, I'm so far ahead of the game I should be leading this investigation and almost sort of like mocking the guard in a weird way it's a very strange thing to say I'm also not 100% sure where or who he said it to but I have read it it's in one of the documentaries as well there were sort of stirrings that he was saying those sorts of things to various people and Joe's odd behaviour would only increase. Just nine days after Rachel was found murdered, he moved back into the bungalow where she had died.

That's a major red flag. Isn't it? Nine days. I hate it. That is just why. I feel like a lot of it with Joe, you know, the comments that he makes about the Gardie moving back into the bungalow, saying the kind of weird stuff that he's reported to say. I just feel like he either thinks that he's reported to say i just feel

like he either thinks that he's just more intelligent than everyone else or like i don't know i don't know what he's thinking like why why would you move back into the house why would you move back in i do not understand is it to save money because he doesn't want to rent somewhere else and he can't even be bothered to like pretend that his wife's horrible murder there affected him i don't get it it's not even like it's you know it's the house where she died her blood's physically still on the walls it hasn't even been like properly cleaned or anything there's blood on the carpet blood on the walls blood on the ceiling in his bedroom i don't get it suspicious uh doing a fantastic job of building the tension this week you are welcome i know i was gonna say if we're

just like fully just like fucking blowing the suspicion i may as well point something else out that i was thinking about you know you know the thousands of euros of money cash money that they have in the house in fucking tupperware boxes if it was a burglary i feel like you've murdered this person and you've taken some other things i feel like you're probably gonna have had a look at the rest of the house and found this money in which case you would have taken it. Now, if it isn't a burglary, like, say, Rose suspects, and it was perhaps an inside job, maybe you don't take that money because then you can't spend it because he would have had to have hidden it. I don't know.

Is it because then it would have drawn the police attention to it and he couldn't have had that money? Because they would have maybe taken it as evidence if he'd have... Why does he leave the money? The camcorder, the handbag and the jewellery box and the jewellery therein all belong to Rachel. He doesn't give a fuck about her stuff. I see. The money, he can spend that.

Because if he pretended it had been stolen, then I guess you could have still whipped out another thousand and never mind. I've lost it. Lost it. Absolutely lost it. Never mind. Let's ignore this bit.

Carry on. It's fine. All I've got in my head is that, like, I've got a TikTok addiction now. After literally saying two weeks ago, I didn't understand it. So, like, my head is just a constant, like, merry-go-round of TikTok songs. And one of them is like, Don't be suspicious. Don't be suspicious.

Don't be suspicious. Don't be suspicious. Don't be suspicious. And that's all that's going on in my head. It's replaced the monkey with a symbol. You thought you were getting away from TikTok. No, I my head. It's replaced the monkey with the symbol. If you thought you were getting away from TikTok, you're not. It's even infiltrated red-handed. I think I need to delete it. Like, it's boring me now. I'm bored of it, but I can't stop.

I'm going to delete it. That's it. You've convinced me with your silence to delete it. Well, I think possibly because maybe China are spying on you using that TikTok app. So get rid of it. Yeah, it's gone. Say no more. It's over.

Me and TikTok are done. TikTok, I'm breaking up with you. Oh, is it me? Sorry. No. Right, so he's back in. So he moves back in straight after Rachel's funeral, throughout which he was stony-faced. And all he did was put a note inside his wife's coffin he didn't display

any emotion at all do you know what sigmund freud said about irish people no but probably something offensive he said they are the only people impervious to psychoanalysis because they just fucking get on with it love it everything could be so horribly wrong but no one will say a word just get on with it till the day you die just shoulder it so you know it could be like people could argue that you know maybe that's just how he deals with grief which if the only weird thing he had done was did not cry at the funeral and then move back into the house i probably would have given him a free pass but not this time i'm afraid there are so many other factors oh yes there's one big factor in particular which we'll come on to later but um yeah that's

interesting I never knew that is it kind of like how um you probably know this but like how ginger people need a lot more anesthetic than normal normal people than other non-ginger people I have read that actually they're built interesting they are. They are. Those damn sexy Celts. So, Joe told the rest of the family, including suspicious Rose, he had found great peace by being back in the house, and he invited them all round so that they too might feel the same. And the family decided to give it a go. And to their total horror, Joe took them into the bedroom

and guided them through, step step by step what he thought had happened to Rachel. Joe also made sure to play the family the voicemails he had left on the house phone that we heard at the top of the show. He showed Rachel's grieving family the bloodstains that still remained on the walls, the carpet, the ceiling. And then he got on his hands and his knees and reenacted the attack on his wife, including minute details. He was sure that the murder weapon had been a small dumbbell. And as we know, this has never been confirmed.

And what a specific thing. Why would you not say hammer? Mate, I don't know. Let's talk about this once I've finished explaining all the other crazy stuff he does to this poor family. Because Joe also pointed out that the attack must have been a ferocious one. Because, hey, look at all the blood that made its way all over the ceiling. He also added the gruesome detail that what probably happened was the attacker got on top of Rachel,

smashed her over the head with a dumbbell, then got off her and went to wash away the evidence in the shower. But as they got up and heard Rachel gurgle, they returned to finish the job. If you think that sounds like an extraordinary level of detail for a grieving husband to know about the murder of his wife, considering he's saying he wasn't there at the time, you're not on your own. What makes it worse is that forensics confirmed every part of this story. They said that the killer would have restrained Rachel by pinning her down and there were definitely two separate attacks. But none of this information was passed on to the family, including Joe. So there is only one way, because we don't put much stock in mediums over here, that Jo could have known these details.

As she watched the horrifying reenactment of her daughter's death by her deranged son-in-law, Rose heard what she swears to this day was Rachel's voice saying, he did it. It was like someone kicking her in the stomach. And from then on, there was no doubt in Rose Callalee's mind that Joe had killed her daughter. He had killed his own wife. Rose immediately told her husband, Jim, of her suspicions, but he took longer to come around to the idea. Initially, he was so distraught he couldn't even imagine it. But Rose stuck to her guns and said, I'm not going to say it again, but I'm just asking you to be open-minded. What is this behaviour? Why?

Why does he drag her family there and do this fucking re-enactment and tell them how Rachel died? What is he hoping to achieve here? I'm really baffled by this over-talking, over-sharing. If I was feeling generous, which I am not, I would say like, oh, grief acts in mysterious ways. Maybe he's trying to process this unimaginable piece of information and maybe he's acting out and like acting pretty manic and maybe he's not very well and all of those things. But, you know, we have the gift of looking at this

in hindsight and I don't think it's any of those things. Yeah, you're right. But no, I don't get it. I think short of the very generous pre-hindsight explanation, the only thing I can think is, again, that he thinks he's smarter than everybody. He thinks he's constantly trying to control everybody. We know that he was quite controlling of Rachel. So is this just that personality spilling over now into more people? It's very bizarre. I don't know. It's something very unusual. I don't think I've ever seen. I've never come across it before, actually. So eventually, Jim, Rose's husband and Rachel's dad came round to the idea that Jim could have done it. But the couple were totally powerless without the support of the Garda and solid evidence. The disembodied voice of your dead daughter is no use in a court of law.

So the Callaleys had to stay quiet as Joe O'Reilly continued to come to their house, eat their food and talk about their dead daughter. Rose later told the press, quote, I couldn't look at him and he knew I knew. Joe didn't just save the murder tours of his bungalow of doom for Rachel's immediate family either. He welcomed the press into his family home with open arms. Photographer Kieran O'Brien had a particularly harrowing experience. It was already weird that Joe had invited him into his home.

Kieran had covered a lot of murders over the years and he'd never come across such a forthcoming family member, especially not a spouse. We talk about people's reactions to things a lot on this show. However, I do think this is a bit different when journalists and photographers who deal with this stuff day in, day out were like, even I thought that was a bit weird. Even I thought that was a bit much. And they've dealt with this on like a literal like hand to hand basis for years. And even to them, he stuck out. It's different us all watching it at home like a press conference. That's a really good point. I hadn't thought about it like that. But you're right. I think the court of public opinion is bullshit. Like we don't know what we're looking at. We've said this multiple times, but you're right. People like police officers

and people involved intimately with crime on a regular basis, them saying that there's red flags, you want to pay attention to that. Out of the ordinary, for sure. Kieran was invited into the house by Joe, shown the bloodstains, the re-enactment of the dumbbell attack complete with Joe on his hands and knees. Then Joe painstakingly explained the position in which Rachel was found. Many journalists were put through the exact same experience. Joe welcomed any and all press into his home,

and he told them all of his and Rachel's perfect life, and how she had died, but not once did he cry. Not once did he express that he was sad to be alone, or that he was scared to raise children without a mother. I feel like that is odd. Even if you're trying to stiff up a lip here, I feel like if you're talking about your children, surely there must be a twinge of emotion about your boys growing up without a mother. Yeah. There's another point that we come on to in a bit. And

the way it strikes me is like Joe is a man whose wife died or passed away, not brutally murdered, but died or passed away. And murdered but died or passed away and he skipped years and years and years of grief and gone to like 10 years down the road where he's like accepted it to some extent and is talking about it he doesn't have any of the raw emotion that one would expect after an immediate loss the closest he gets to expressing any kind of emotion is quote nothing can bring her back now, unfortunately. Which, for me, sounds like something you say when you don't get a job or you lose out on the flat you wanted.

It's not the attitude of a man whose wife has been violently beaten to death in his own home and now he has two sons to raise single-handedly. It just doesn't, it doesn't, does it? No, no. So, oh, well, next, move on. You just, these things happen.

Yeah, at best it is a completely detached and here is a man who is not very good at expressing his emotions at worst it is he fucking did it and he's a terrible actor place your bets for which one you think it is we'll come back to it but right now we're going to take a very quick break i know hannah and i are not always very good at remembering to tell people when we're about to have an ad break. Come on, guys. We can't remember everything. We can't do it all.

And we're just having a good time. I know, especially today, you know. If you're wondering why we're particularly giddy today, it's because it's the start of the bank holiday weekend here in the UK. It's going to be fun. I've got two pub trips planned. It's going to be fucking exciting. Whoa! Whoa, Nellie! I know. It's going to be fun. I've got two pub trips planned. It's going to be fucking... Whoa! Whoa, Nelly! I know, it's going to be nuts.

But anyway, before we take a quick ad break today, Hannah and I just wanted to recommend a brand new true crime podcast. It's called Obsessed With Disappeared. And if you think, hey, that sounds familiar, that's because it stars the creators and hosts of smash hit podcast True Crime Obsessed, Patrick Hines and Ellen Marsh. Obsessed with Disappeared is a true crime slash comedy podcast that in each episode the hosts tell the mysterious story of a missing person by recapping the episode of the ID show Disappeared that covered their case. Obsessed with Disappeared is an easy listen. It's hilarious and informative storytelling from two best friends who truly love each other and will do just about anything to make the other one laugh. So if you're fascinated by cases of missing people and you're serious about

true crime but also love to laugh, you'll love Obsessed with Disappeared. Find Obsessed with Disappeared wherever you get your podcasts. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On the Media. To listen, subscribe to On the Media wherever you get your podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer

who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't.

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The pinnacle of Joe O'Reilly's media circus was his appearance on The Late Late Show, which is absolutely not the programme hosted by James Corden. He's from High Wycombe, you know. Oh, is he? Oh, you're sure? That's what I discovered today, because I did a little interview with the pod chart show for Red Handed,

which is either out slash coming out. I don't know when you're listening to this episode. Things, there are things happening. But in that, the guy was from Hitchin, which is a town right next to where i'm from and i found out because he told me the queen mother was born in hitchin didn't know that fuck off yes really yeah didn't know that jesus and he was like why would we never talk that in school and i was like i know i mean to all the fucking useless crap they told us about

letchwood they never told us that the queen mother was born in Hitchin. Not that I'm a royalist, but it is quite an interesting piece of information. Anyway, so back to the Late Late Show. So the Irish Late Late Show is actually, and this is another interesting fact. You guys are getting so many today. It is actually the world's second longest running late night talk show after the Tonight Show. Isn't that cool? Mate, that is cool. That's like a who wants to be a millionaire question, you know?

What's the second longest running late night talk show? Now you guys know. Well, when we finally do a fucking pub quiz. I know. We're going to be all over it. So if you're wondering what it is, the Irish Late Late Show is kind of like Parkinson meets This Morning meets Prime Minister's Questions,

but with more murder interviews. And this particular murder interview went down in Irish TV history. Bill Malone, who was a producer on the show at the time, recalled Joe, the very same Joe O'Reilly, whose wife has been horribly murdered, totally loving it. When interviewed by the host, Joe tells the story of how he proposed to Rachel. And you would never guess that the woman he's talking about, Rachel, had just horribly and tragically been murdered. Joe told the studio audience that he had proposed to Rachel at the top of the Eiffel Tower, because if he hadn't, she would have thrown him off. Now, I don't know.

I think it's all in the delivery there. You say it with, like, a choked-up voice and a sob and a little, like, oh, God. OK, fine. But go watch it. Well, like, you can watch this. This is out there. The way he tells it, it's like an anecdote you tell at a party,

not one you tell on TV when your wife has just been murdered. It's honestly, I was shocked by it. And there's this really like nervous chatter from the audience as well. Everyone's like, no. They all know that this, and it's only weeks later. And this is an appeal to the public for information. That's why he's on the show. It's not to be like, oh, here's my book.

It's fucking nuts. No, you're right. You're right. Because that's exactly what i was saying before which is this idea that if this was like 10 year anniversary of rachel's death they're there to commemorate and celebrate her life this is the story you tell when her killers have still not been found by the police and there is an active investigation going on this is not the appropriate context this is not the appropriate story it's fucking weird

so anyway during this entire show rose is sat next to joe and she does not look at him one single time joe told the late late show viewers about the day that rachel was found dead he described his morning routines as business as usual he talks about the drive and the gym and all of the things that we know about. He says absolutely nothing about what happened between 8am and 1pm. His story stops at his arrival at the bus depot. But Joe did speak a lot about the going-ons at his house. He said that he was sure that two burglars made their way into the house and were surprised to find Rachel there, so they killed her.

He also stated that he was sure the intruders must have known Rachel personally or she never would have taken them into the bedroom because then she would be, quote, cornered. And this is a readily available interview, as Saru just said. Find it on YouTube. It's uncomfortable to watch. And obviously we are watching it because we know what happened with the benefit of hindsight but even at the time the irish writ large found this whole thing very suspicious it's just like the famous chris watts interview or even the ian huntley one it left the whole nation muttering under their breath i bet that bastard did it

after the show was recorded and rose and jo Joe were sent back to the green room, Joe announced swiftly that he couldn't hang around and he had a business meeting to attend to that involved some Americans. This was, of course, met with raised eyebrows. Obviously, Joe was not off to a business meeting. And if you've been looking for a motive, lads, we found one. Joe toddled off to his mistress's house. When Rachel died, he admitted to Gardie that he had a short-lived affair with a colleague called Nicky Pelly, but that it was nothing serious and had been over for months, which was total bullshit.

Joe was incredibly serious about Nicky. While Rachel was alive, he stayed with Nicky every Saturday night and every Tuesday night. Nicky had even been out with Joe and Rachel's children for a day at the zoo. And it later came to light that when Joe spoke to Nikki about Rachel, he only ever called her the wasp or the C word. Wow. I also just hate that he took his kids out, like his and Rachel's kids out with her. So when the Irish Times ran a story about Joe's affair with Nikki and placed him at the very top of the Garda suspect list, Joe immediately stopped answering press calls

and also stopped cooperating with anyone. He knew he was in big trouble. Nicky wasn't Joe's only affair either. The press sniffed about and they discovered that he had also been involved with golf pro Barbara Hackett. I just also love the idea of somebody who plays golf surname being Hackett. Yeah, fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. Love it. So Barbara Hackett, for those of you who don't know, 1997 Irish women's champion in golf. And she claimed that she had been with Joe, but she'd ended things as soon as she'd found out

that he was married and never spoke to him again. She never gave any interviews on the matter and she was excused from testifying in any form. But love rat Joe isn't done yet. Although he had multiple affairs in the past, it seemed like he did have real plans to start a life with Nikki Pelly. Loads of people do that.

But Joe was not willing to give up his children. And with Rachel in the picture, he knew there was no way that he would gain sole custody of the kids in the event of a divorce. So his plan developed another layer. This layer was revealed in a series of emails sent between him and his sister Anne four months before Rachel's murder. Again, this makes him very similar to the Chris Watts case. The whole idea of like, you could have just left. You could have just asked for a divorce. You could have walked out and then just had access to your kids there as and when. But no, I think it's definitely in Joe's case that he wants the kids all to himself. But I think it's

also what we talked about in the Chris Watts episode of like, I just want a fresh start. I don't want to pay alimony. I don't want to pay like, give you money. I don't want to have an ex-wife. I just want to have a wife that I've now decided is my new dream. And I just want you gone because you're now an inconvenience. Exactly. These emails that were dug up by the Garda followed an interview by social services. So someone had anonymously tipped social services off that Rachel was mistreating her children. And I have an extremely strong suspicion that I know who that someone is. Essentially, what I think is happening here is that Joe is enlisting his sisters and his mother to report Rachel as being an unfit carer for the children so that he can get the children

full custody. I have not read anywhere else that there is any gravity to this at all. And from what I can tell, the incident in question that prompted this anonymous report that led to an interview with both Rachel Anjo and social services was Rachel pulling a pyjama top too roughly over one of the kids' heads and shouting. Do I think you should shout at your kids every day? No don't do i think it's a job for social services also no bloody hell but then to to be as fair as we can about this if it wasn't a major concern you do have to wonder why anne was sticking her oar in if there was no real problem but then also maybe she just fucking hated rachel we don't know i feel like so often there are those cases of like mother-in-law from hell

and I feel like I don't know I can just imagine Joe given how kind of narcissistic he comes across given how entitled and just how just the type of person he comes across as I'm not here to just like blame the mum outright but I can imagine that she's possibly been quite an enabler his entire life and she would just take his side if he said my wife's a horrible bitch and she's abusing the kids i need you to go make some reports to social services yeah so joe describes this social services interview in his emails as quote a big steaming pile of shite and that shouting at kids and hitting them was okay in the eyes of the law and social services said they would only intervene if a child is at risk of sexual abuse or there had been several non-accidental hospitalizations. Apparently, Rachel admitted to shouting at the children too much and agreed to

go on a parenting course. But Joe's main issue with the meeting was that he was described as the secondary caregiver, which made him, quote, Mr. Weekend Custody in the eyes of the state. If she's a stay-at-home mom, she is the primary caregiver. I don't really see how you can argue that, Jo. I know. I'm like, what do you want? Do you want to be called like king of the dads and given a fucking crown? Get over yourself, you absolute fucking prick. Yes, she is the primary caregiver. That would make you the secondary caregiver.

What's your problem? And there are several more emails exchanged between the siblings, which are long and I'll spare you the ins and outs of them. But what you need to know is that Joe called Rachel the C word several times. He says he would rather choke than go for a meal with her, that she repulsed him. And then he rather childlessly wrote the following mathematical equation. Me plus Rachel plus marriage equals over four exclamation marks.

You are a fully grown man. You are a father. He's such a prick. Honestly, I can't, I can't cope with his algebra. So Anne, his sister, plays along with everything. She is clearly not Rachel's biggest fan. And she agrees with Joe about the childcare front too. She even told Joe that he was, quote,

fooked as a father in this dump and told him to make Rachel basically move abroad, saying, I really don't know how you're going to get out of this one. So when are you filing for legal separation then? If you want, I'll kidnap you and the kids on Friday night before she has the chance to get hold of you. just fully fully on board with joe's plan and his i don't like you and no i don't like you either and we suspect what she's saying when she's saying like you're fucked in this dump is that in ireland the mom's always gonna get priority of custody but i'm like that's everywhere where is that not the case so where are you going to move abroad that you can get custody i don't i don't understand so anyway soon the guarder arrested derek nikki and joe but they didn't manage to

keep hold of any of them and all three were released without charge until the command came down from the top to exhume rachel's body and retrieve the note that Jo had slipped inside her coffin before she was buried. Now, the note was not a confession as such, but it did say something to the effect of the only people who know what happened are you and me. What are you doing? He couldn't even let her be put in the ground without rubbing it in her face. This is what I don't get.

It's like, if he just shut his mouth, then I don't know if he would have got away with it. But if he'd have just kept his mouth shut, not given fucking, taken the family round and shown them the fucking house and told them what happened to Rachel and do all this weird shit. And the note, he makes so many unforced errors I don't understand why it's such a personality like driven thing with him though this note was obviously enough for the Gardie and on the 19th of October 2006 Joe O'Reilly was arrested for the murder of his wife two whole years after the fact. The trial began in June the following year and the nation watched anxiously. People would queue for hours to get seats in the public gallery. Everyone was sure

Joe O'Reilly had done it, but no one was sure if they could prove it. There was no forensic evidence connecting him to the crime. The murder weapon, like we said, has never been found. And of course, his DNA was everywhere. It was his house. But on the 11th day of the trial, that was all about to change when the prosecution brought out the big guns. Joe O'Reilly's phone records. Pew, pew, pew!

Like, they absolutely fucking ruin him with this, and I love it. And also, before you all kick off, I know that phone records are still circumstantial but it's the best we've got so circumstantial evidence is evidence these records showed that before he got to the gym to meet derek joe had been on the phone to nikki pelly for 28 minutes on the day that his wife died the location of his phone and therefore the location of his good self is of course given away by which telephone mast the mobile phone pings off. So we know that he did go to the gym and we know that he did go to his office.

He sent an email at 7.45am saying that he would be away from his desk until two. And then he went off to inspect the buses at Broadstone with Derek but they went in separate cars and this is where it all goes wrong for Joe under questioning Derek claimed to have seen Joe at the bus depot at 10am which would have made it impossible as we said for him to have made it home in time to kill Rachel before showing back up at the office before 11 but Derek admitted that he may have got his timings mixed up. So you do have to wonder how much Derek really knew or whether he was just a bit thick.

Did he know? I don't know. Derek walks away scot-free, nothing ever happens to him. I wonder. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's, I'd probably give him the benefit of the doubt because possibly, like, if you and I were hanging out one day and you told me, oh, you saw me at 11. I'd be like, oh yeah, maybe I did see you at 11.

I wouldn't think much more of it. The phone records show that at 9.25, Joe's phone pinged off the tower at Murphy's Quarry, which means that he was not at the bus station 12 miles away. He was at home waiting for Rachel to get in from the school run that finished at 9.40, like it always did. At 9.50am, Joe's phone pinged the Murphy's Quarry Tower yet again, which gave him a 15-18 minute window where he could have murdered Rachel. This is backed up by CCTV footage of Joe's car on his way back from the house at 9.59am and at 10.07am.

So that means he was going away from the house on his way back to work. Another text was sent while he was in the car that pinged two separate towers, proving that he was on the move heading back to the city. A colleague also testified that she saw Joe back at the office at 11am and said that he had clearly been crying. She told him that he, quote, looked like shite and he storm he had clearly been crying. She told him that he quote looked like shite and he stormed off into his office. Over the course of the trial the prosecution called 114 witnesses and the defense called just two and neither one of them was Joe himself.

Nikki Pelley took the stand and when she was asked why she and Joe had lied about the seriousness and longevity of their affair, she said, quote, because if it was a relationship, it would be seen as giving him a motive to kill Rachel.

Nikki, love, mate, say something else. Don't say that. You're killing him. So after 10 hours of deliberation the jury of course found joe o'reilly guilty of the murder of rachel and he was sentenced to life in prison since his incarceration he has made several appeals but they've all been denied he also failed to have his conviction overturned as a miscarriage of justice, as he tried. Currently he is attempting

to take his case to the European Court of Human Rights, but he doesn't really have the cash to follow through on this. Joe has never admitted his guilt, and neither has his brother Derek, nor has his partner, I guess girlfriend, whatever we want to call her, Nikki Pelly. And unbelievably, I thought, Nikki stood by Joe for years and the pair had plans to move abroad once Joe was released. Derek said this was because, quote, I don't think Ireland would be a relaxing place for him to be. No fucking shit, Derek. Fuck. My God. Who? what's happening? I'm speechless. So Derek claims that he asked his brother outright if he had anything to do with Rachel's death.

Joe obviously denied it. And since then, Derek has decided that there is no reason to doubt his brother. Does he live in that Ricky Gervais film, The Invention of Lying? Is it, is that where you live, Derek? Is that your house? I think it might be. But yeah, basically, Nicky, Derek and Joe all just stick to the mystery intruder defence to this day. But eventually, Nicky and Joe called it a day on their relationship when they realised that Joe had absolutely no

chance of getting out of prison anytime soon. They're still friends, apparently, but their romantic relationship has come to a close. Rachel was not the only tragic loss that the Callerley family suffered. In September 2010, Rachel's sister Anne died after a long battle with cancer. And Rose is convinced that the stress of Rachel's death, coupled with the fear that Joe O'Reilly was coming to get her, was the trigger of the disease that ultimately killed her. On top of that, Jo has parole hearings every two years, which the Callerley family have compared to opening up a sore. That's just sad. That's the worst thing, isn't it?

I do get, like, obviously prisoners have to have parole hearings and that, but I'm like, every two years. They can never just relax. It's just, it breaks my heart. But Rose has channeled her grief into a book and told the press quote i try not to think about him and if he comes into my mind i put him out i could be angry but that would be a waste of energy that i don't have he is still saying he didn't murder rachel and i can't explain how important that it is that if he just admitted that he did it,

it would be a huge burden lifted. But that's his final punishment, isn't it? That's his final act of control and pain that he gets to cause by not even just admitting to it, even though he knows he's never getting out, or at least for not a very long time. So for as long as she lives, Rose's focus is to keep Joe behind bars, although she assured that if he said sorry now and he tried to ask for forgiveness, she said, I would feel that it was his last shot at trying to get out of prison.

The Callalee family also hold mass in their home for their two dead daughters every year in late September. So here's your homework. Go away and watch all of the footage of Joe O'Reilly if you can and tell us what you think because he definitely comes across as cold, fine, but there's something else and I can't quite put my finger on what it is so please help me, it's going to drive me mad otherwise. What really sticks with me about the whole case is not only how calculated his attack on Rachel was, it's that he clearly enjoyed reliving the event. He told everyone who would listen, including Rachel's nearest and dearest. He also loved the press because he loved playing the part

of the genius husband who'd figured it all out before the Garda did. But worst of all, he sent Rose to the house to discover her battered daughter. He waited at the school until he was sure she had had enough time to find the body. And then, when he got back to the house, he smiled. Knowing, knowing what she's just found. He's so sadistic. I have to say, I don't think that this is just like an accident.

No, you're totally right as well. Why he does the reenactments is he enjoys it. He's enjoying every moment of it. I wrestle it. Yeah, I think he enjoyed it. I also think, you know, did he want Rose to suffer? Probably. It's quite hard to imagine that he didn't want that.

Or maybe he was just so disconnected from the whole thing that he was like logically thinking, I don't want to incriminate myself. So someone else have to find it. Who's nearest? Oh, Rose. But could you not have got like one of her, I mean, obviously there's no great person to find her body,

but her mum. Now I think it's calculated that he picked her mum because he could have picked anybody. He could have picked anybody. And I think he picks her mum on purpose because he hates Rose. Because I think Rose, like we said, she's never liked him.

She's always been onto him. It was two birds with one stone. He knows I don't want to be the one to discover the body and call it in. And this way, I also get to punish Rose. Rachel's dad, Jim, has called Jo a psychopath multiple times in the press. Do we think that's what this is? Is that where this arrogance comes from? I don't know.

I would maybe go with yes, only because obviously we don't know Joe. I haven't spoken to him. I'm not a psychiatrist, whatever. But like, he has no empathy. I feel like he wants to hurt people. I feel like he gets off on it to some extent. I don't know if that's necessarily psychopathy.

Maybe it's something else. Maybe it's sadism. It's narcissism. I don't know. He's necessarily psychopathy maybe it's something else maybe it's sadism it's narcissism I don't know there's he's not okay though he's not this isn't just like a crime of passion that then he just desperately tried to cover up this was premeditated and he is incredibly cold and maybe his like weird anecdotes on the late late show whatever that could be a psychopathy thing because he's trying to imitate what emotions other people would be feeling. And he's trying to give people what they want from him, which is this like likable guy. He's just getting off with girls all the time.

Maybe, maybe. And I do also think the sort of grandiosity side of it comes into it quite a lot with the narcissism. The fact that he didn't like being called a secondary caregiver and stuff like that. Like there something there's a is it cluster b i forget there's a cluster and he's in that cluster i do think whether he's a psychopath or not i think that joe was pretty convinced that he had pulled off the perfect crime and the worst part is they really did have only circumstantial evidence if he had just left his phone at the bus depot,

I think he would have got away with it. I think he would have walked. I think without the phone evidence, dead in the water, mate, I don't think he would have seen a day inside a jail cell. God, that's terrifying. That's terrifying. Fuck.

Yep, you're welcome. Happy Wednesday, Thursday. Whatever day it is for you. Rachel O'Reilly, thank you for your recommendations. Keep them flooding in. Yeah, it always helps. And while you're at it, follow us on the Instagram. We need to hit 60,000 before we're officially celebrities.

So keep doing that. Hello. We need 30,000 each. Oh, is that the rule? Got it. I do think that's the rule. We've got the countdown on. It's happening.

We're almost there. Guys, come follow us on there. Come check out our Patreon. It's fucking popping off because we've just got so much content on there. It's crazy. So if you want to, that link is in the episode description. It's also super easy to find. Just Google it.

I'm not going to tell you the fucking link because I'll get laughed at. So anyway, here are some fabulous people who have signed up. Before we do that, is there any content that I can point to? No, I can't think of anything off the top of my head. Never mind. So thank you very much. Carmel Pragnell. Stuart Baker.

Antonio Harold. Ashley Road. Antonia. Antonia Harold. Don't misgender her. Sorry. Ashley Road. Georgia Nich. Antonia Harold. Don't misgender her. Sorry. Ashley Road. Georgia Nichols.

Molly Russell. Helena Cregan. Taylor Stephens. Kelly Harold. Anna. Christy, Kirstie, Christy Edwards. Mariah Gwynn. Eric Zamparipa.

Zamparipa? Yeah, I don't know. I feel like I can't read. It's because I'm trying to think about something else that I was going to say and I didn't say and it's playing on my mind. So I'm just going to say it. Basically, I was thinking, isn't it interesting? Like, obviously, Rachel O'Reilly's dad is like, he's a psychopath and he's saying that

everywhere. And I think, you know, it's that sort of outside of true crime perspective of almost like the psychopath makes him like the worst possible person. That's an explanation. But the idea of like within true crime and when we were saying that, when we were trying to decipher whether he was a psychopath or not, it's like it doesn't really make any difference. He killed Rachel. What difference does it make? And it's almost like we've seen cases in which that's been thrown up so much in the courtroom about like what is the personality disorder what is the situation like with Jodie Arias we talked about it very in depth there like

almost like what what difference does it really make in this situation but anyway that was just something I was thinking about back to the names Les Webb, Lauren Main, Rachel Longshore Park, Annabelle Ruvers, Kia Graham, Maya Wellborn, Lisa Heffley. Oh, also my mum told me, why don't you guys practice saying the names before you do the pitch? Don't do it. No, mum. Tell Subha from me. Tell her I said. It's a bit more complicated Ruth Agnew Kaylee Hill Kweli Duboff Emma Fabian Paige Hardesty and I know my mum was like she was like you sound stupid Simon Hancock Melissa Mora Veronica Smith Alison Fastino Claire Riddle Meg Hitchcock Smith tag Alioss oh sorry go ali ross so i said tag i don't think you heard sorry i don't think you heard but you're too busy raging at your mom in your head double trouble for

ali ross though charlotte harris mikaela whiteley or whitley jade jemma enkins is what i nearly said emma jenkins i'm dyslexic i'm dyslexic charlie bro Brook. Daniel Connolly. R. McLaughlin. Holly. Stuart Noble. Rima Mehta. Hayley My Barnby. Joanne Ball. Desi King. Miranda Jerzer. Sophie Bamford. Nenna Terzi. Kay McKellar. Scarlett Davis. Jessica Gasper. Sandy Emma Becker, Alex Reglin, Joran Schlevorken, sorry, Amy Hunt, Elise Pantino, Dawn Riddle, Megan De Staines, Lorna Sorensen, Katie Reeves, Catherine Coverdale, Sarah Gresty. I went for lunch with one of my sister's friends the other day. One of them listens to the show.

B, hi B. She was like, you read my name out on Patreon and didn't say anything. And I was like, I'm sorry. So here's your shout out now, B. I'm sorry. It's a fucking whirlwind of names in this. We're not on it. Maria Pettersson, Maria E. Parker, Fake Name McGee, Melissa Escott, Jen Frankie, Stephanie Pajari, Dr. Pierce, Katie Alice, Fiona Garvey, Kayleen,

Ellie McKenzie, Melissa Mendez, Bradley, Brandy Hamilton, sorry, Brandy, Eri Guthrie, Tegan Jansen, Amy, Kelly Keener, Louise Richard, Sophie Hare, Lucy Sinfield-Jones, Joey, Patricia Toomey, Karen Kenyon, Little Thorn, Abby Mead, Zoe Kaira, Megan Isurik, Rihanna Seawood-Haley, Gemma Lancaster, Mama Bear Creative, Katie Richards, Brooklyn Thomas, Naomi Granati, Galen Dejuna, Safa Khan, Suze, Susan, Suze,

I'm having a stroke. I just got stuck on that like a record Suze Susan By the end of this we're just both going to develop a stutter and have to give up our entire fucking new careers

Not that you can't have a stutter and do a podcast More power to you Scroobius Pip does just fine Rosie McCoubry Nicole McCowan and Kenya I give up We give up Bad enough Guys I tap out Just fine. Rosie McCoubry, Nicole McCowan, and Kenya...

I give up. We give up. I tap out. Guys, it's the end of the day. It's five o'clock on Friday. Thank you so much for sticking through this episode with us. And I don't know, there's Under the Duvet immediately after this for $5 and up patrons over on Patreon.

Other than that, we will see you next week when we're going to be talking about something else. Goodbye. Bye. I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to light some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes.

And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery Plus. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial today. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mom's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now,

exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding and this time if all goes to plan we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+.

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