RedHanded - Episode 166 - The Noida Double Murders: Aarushi & Hemraj

Episode Date: September 24, 2020

London Podcast Festival Live Stream Tickets When 13 year old Aarushi Talwar was found dead with her throat slit in her own bedroom, it sparked the beginning of what would become one of India’s most notorious cases. A story of immeasurable corruption, incompetence, sex, scandals and secrets. References   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. So, get this. The Ontario Liberals elected Bonnie Crombie as their new leader. Bonnie who? I just sent you her profile. Her first act as leader, asking donors for a million bucks for her salary. That's excessive. She's a big carbon tax supporter. Oh yeah. Check out her record as mayor. Oh, get out of here. She even increased taxes carbon tax supporter. Oh, yeah. Check out her record as mayor. Oh, get out of here.

She even increased taxes in this economy. Yeah, higher taxes, carbon taxes. She sounds expensive. Bonnie Crombie and the Ontario Liberals. They just don't get it. That'll cost you. A message from the Ontario PC Party. Get ready for Las Vegas-style action at BetMGM,

the king of online casinos. Enjoy casino games at your fingertips with the same Vegas strip excitement MGM is famous for. When you play classics like MGM Grand Millions or popular games like Blackjack, Baccarat and Roulette. With our ever growing library of digital slot games, a large selection of online table games and signature BetMGM service. There's no better way to bring the excitement and ambiance of Las Vegas home to you than with BetMGM Casino. Download the BetMGM Casino app today. BetMGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly.

BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. 19 plus to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact ConnexOntario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor, free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. I'm Saruti I'm Hannah and welcome to Red Handed before we kick off is this too late no it's not too late we have good news guys tomorrow if you're listening to this on Wednesday slash Thursday on

Friday this week the 25th of September we're going to be doing a live show at the London Podcast Festival in London. Do not fear if you are not anywhere near London because all the in-show seats have now sold out. But you can get your hands on some virtual live streaming tickets. If you would like to do that, head on over to the link that we will leave very conveniently in the description of this episode. Get yourself some tickets and we'll see you there. Yep. See you through the interwaves. Which is the only way we may be able to see each other for quite a while.

Starting soon. So let's do that. But anyway, we have got quite the crazy case for you. So I feel like we should just crack on. Yeah, it's a long one. Yeah, it's a long one. And you're going to need your thinking caps. You're keeping up with us joggers. Any other apparel that you may need. Tidpole hats. Maybe a shiny tidpole hat as well for places. There's so many things you need to put on. So get ready

because it's a wild one. I felt like when I was doing the research for it, it felt very reminiscent of like the JonBenet Ramsey case, except for the fact that I don't actually feel like I have a very strong inclination as to who did it here. I haven't got a scooby-doo. I don't even have a scrappy-doo. No, it's a whole heap of mess, but we're going to go through it piece by piece. Pay attention, maybe listen to it again. If you do sort of start googling it yourself, there is so much information out there. A of it is really inaccurate the media as you'll see just went nuts with it so if you are like I really want the kind of definitive rundown of this case then I would recommend the book that I used which was the sort of main source of the research for this particular episode and it is a book called Arushi and it is

written by a journalist called Averuk Sen. Again I'll leave a link in the episode description if you guys want to get your hands on a copy of that. So other than that let's get on with it. We're heading to India today, specifically to the city of Noida in the northern state of Uttar Pradesh. Here lived the Talwars. They were an exceedingly ordinary family. Rajesh and Nupur Talwar had met at university, fallen in love, got married, and gone on to become very successful dentists, running their own clinic covering the southern Delhi region that Noida borders. After they married, the Talwars tried for five years to get pregnant, but no luck. So they turned to IVF, and much to their joy,

they conceived a little girl. And she was born on the 24th of May 1994 and they named her Arushi. And by all accounts she was the absolute light of their lives. The Talvas lived in an apartment in Noida with their live-in domestic worker and cook, a man in his mid-40s named Hemraj. And life was good. Rajesh's brother Dinesh and his family as well as as Nupur's parents, also lived in the same housing complex. So with Nupur and Rajesh often working late, there was always someone to watch Arushi. I also realised I'm not even going to try to do the

Indian accent after what happened last week, in case it just all starts sounding Welsh again. You're pretty good at Uttar Pradesh. I'll just do that. I'll just pronounce the names of stuff properly in this episode and call it a day. Yeah, just really hammer it home on the place names and then everyone will forgive your, like, erasure of your heritage last week. Absolutely. Let's all just steer clear of that. God loves a trier. The story we are going to tell you today picks up on the 15th of May 2008. As usual, Nupur had picked up Arushi from school and dropped her off at her parents' place and then gone back to work. She returned first that evening and took Arushi home. At 9.30pm, Rajesh got home. His driver, Umesh,

had brought him home, parked the car and then brought the keys up to the flat. How... I don't know anything about this because I've never been to India and also I'm an ignorant person. How common is it to have a driver? That's a really good question. Super, super, super common. So in a lot of places where they are talking about this case, especially Western resources that discuss this case, they make it sound like the Talwars are like super, super rich, like super wealthy elite. They're not. They're just like a very ordinary middle class family. And in an ordinary middle class family in India, it is very, very, very likely that you have a driver and that you have a live-in cook and a live-in worker and a maid. It is just like a normal thing

to do. Most people just don't drive if they have cars. I can't really think of a reason why they don't do that. They just have a driver. That is what I suspected. Thank you for clearing that up. So the driver, Umesh, parked the car and he brings the keys back up to the flat. When he did this, Umesh had seen Arushi, Nupur, Rajesh and Hemraj. They were preparing dinner and the mood seemed jovial. Umesh then left and he would be the last one to see all four of them alive. That night, with it being eight days before Arushi's 14th birthday, that was the main topic of conversation. Rajesh had planned a birthday party for Arushi,

and she was finalizing her guest list. That night, Rajesh and Nupur had a surprise for Arushi. They had bought her a brand new camera for her birthday. And Rajesh had wanted to wait until her actual birthday to give it to her, but Nupur convinced him that they should give it to her early so she could take pictures at her party. And also the next day at school, because it was her last day before they broke up for the summer.

When they gave it to Arushi, she was thrilled, and she spent the rest of the evening with her parents taking photos of them all together. From around 9pm that night, it seems that Arushi's phone was switched off. And we know that it was off because her friends tried calling her and they couldn't get through. Now, again, if you go and read about this case anywhere, you're going to see a lot of people making quite a big deal about this in the aftermath of this case. And yes, it is weird. Arushi was almost 14 and she was very popular at school. Looking at her previous night's phone records and her general sort of phone usage behavior, she was glued to the thing.

And so a lot of people obviously make a big deal about the fact that she's got it switched off that particular night, the night that something happens. But according to her parents, she had told them that there was an issue with her phone and that it wasn't working properly. So they all hung out, ate dinner together, and then at around 11pm, Rajesh, Nupur and Arushi all went to their rooms. Now the key thing is that we do know that this is the sequence of what happens at night because when the police find the camera later and go through the photographs,

they can see it time-stamped and they can see that everyone is together until about 11pm. But Rajesh still had a bit of work to do at this stage in the evening. He had a call with someone in America, so he stayed up to speak with them, thanks to the time difference. We know all about that one, don't we? Sometimes someone will put in a call for like 10.30pm our time without even thinking about it on like a Friday and we're just like... Absolutely no. No. No thanks even thinking about it on like a Friday and we're just like... Absolutely no.

No. No thanks. Think about it. Try again. He was working on his laptop before this call while he was waiting and he noticed that his Wi-Fi was annoyingly slow. So Nupur went to Arushi's room where the router was kept to turn it off and on again. According to Nupur, she had gone into Arushi's room at around 11.30pm and she said that at this point Arushi was in bed happily reading a book. Shortly after this, Nupur fell asleep.

Rajesh stayed up working. He had this business call, which happened to be with someone from the American Dental Association based in Chicago. He sent his last email at 11.41pm, but he was awake and still using the internet until 12.08am. At around this time, so just after midnight, a kid named Anmol, who was a 15-year-old boy who knew Arushi from school, tried calling the landline. He did this after multiple text messages and multiple attempts to call Arushi's phone. So Anmol, he's kind of like Arushi's boyfriend, like they're chatting together. Previous texting records show it's like constant chat chat chat chat chat much more than with anybody else that she knows and I thought the landline ringing thing was kind of weird because she has got a mobile phone so I guess he's doing

it because he can't reach her but apparently sometimes this is how they would communicate Arushi would go out into the hall and turn down the volume of the ringer on her landline so her friends could call her on that. I don't know why. Why are you doing that if you've got a mobile phone? So I do that when I'm at my mum's house because there is no reception. So you can text people on the Wi-Fi, but if someone tried to call my mobile, absolutely no chance. So you have to use the home phone. So impossibly, I don't know. That is as good an explanation as I can think of. But that particular night, no one answered the call. And still, at this point, Arushi's phone is either off or it's dead.

Again, we know this because the handset didn't receive the text that Anmol had been trying to send. What's particularly weird about this, like we said, is that if you look at Arushi's previous phone records, she'd normally be up on her phone until like 12.30 to 1am. That's like typical teenage behaviour. But like we said, her parents did say that she had told them it wasn't working properly. Maybe she was making a play for a new phone and after all, you know, she sat around using her existing phone. That doesn't exactly help her case for this potential new phone that she's wanting.

Yeah, she's 13 though. It's gone on the run up to her birthday. I could believe that she'd just be like, oh, it's just like a bit slow. It's not working. Can I have a new one? Yeah. It could also possibly be, as some of her friends later suggested, that she was getting kind of annoyed at Anne Moll

and maybe she wanted a break from him that evening from him like just fucking blowing up her phone the whole time. We don't know. The reason that I don't think it's broken, like Arushi tells her parents though, comes up later. So put a pin in it for now. And this is why we're trying to figure out why that one particular night she's got it switched off and why I don't necessarily think that it was broken. Anyway, let's fast forward to the following morning. The Talvas, aside from

Hemraj, had a maid, a lady called Kalpana. But Kalpana was away visiting family, and so she'd found a short-term replacement for herself to help the family out. This maid was a lady called Bharti Mandal, and she had been going to the Talvars' house for the past week. So, as planned, she arrived at 6am on Friday the 16th of May, 2008. She would usually knock on the gate to the Talbagh's house for the past week. So, as planned, she arrived at 6am on Friday the 16th of May 2008. She would usually knock on the gate to the flat and Hemraj would let her in, but that day no one answered the door. Eventually, after a while, Nupur finally came to the door. She had been woken up by the doorbell and she wondered, where was Hemraj? Nupur figured that Hemraj must have just gone out to buy milk and forgotten that Bharati didn't have any keys. But the issue was that it seemed that the iron gates were locked from the outside.

So this is an important part of the story. So everyone pay attention. We will post a photo of the layout of the entire flat, including what I'm about to explain, on our social media. So come take a look at it when you're listening to this particular bit. Basically, to get into the Talvars flat flat you have to go through three sets of doors. Firstly there is an iron gate. When that was opened it would take you down a short passage at the end of which were two more doors. First is a mesh door then a wooden door. So the wooden door is the one that directly faces into the inside of the flat. And when this door is shut, it would automatically lock and could only be opened from the inside.

To open it from the outside, you needed a key. The mesh door that's in front of the wooden door had a two-way lock. So it could be opened or closed from the inside, but could also be bolted, closed, from the outside. So that day, when Nupur tried to go and let Bharati in, she opened the wooden door but found that the mesh door in front of it had been bolted from the outside. So she couldn't get to the iron door to let Bharati the maid in. And the metal gate behind which Bharati stood on the outside, according to her, had been locked from the outside.

Everyone with me? I think so. I think I'm there. I think I'm with you. on the outside, according to her, had been locked from the outside. Everyone with me? I think so. I think I'm there. I think I'm with you. Basically, the setup of this, as Bharati is reporting it and as Nupur reports it, is like somebody has left the house, left the flat, they've latched the mesh door on their way out, and then they've locked the iron gate on their way out. So it very much indicates someone has left the building. Yeah, it would be a different state of affairs if someone had come in. Or if somebody from the inside had locked up all those gates and stayed in.

Nupur, thinking that Hemraj must have gone out and bolted the mesh door from outside and locked the iron gate from the outside too, wondered what to do. Bharati suggested that Nupur throw the keys to the iron door from the balcony into the street and she'd let herself in. Nupur agreed and went back into the flat and Bharati walked out of the building and back onto the street. During this time, Nupur tried to phone Hemraj. The first time it rung, someone answered the call but abruptly hung up. She tried it again, but this time the phone was off. So Nupur went down to the balcony and threw the keys down to Bharati.

Bharati grabbed the keys and walked back up to the flat and to the gate. But, and this is a very important and interesting part of the story, Bharati the maid says that when she returned to the gate with the keys, she was surprised to see that the gate was now unlocked and easily pushed open. There is a lot of contentiousness about this particular bit, like there is about basically every single thing in this entire story, but you you know what let's get into it. A lot of people say that this gate was just really stiff and that Bharati hadn't been with the family long. Remember she's just a short-term replacement for Kalpana who is the usual maid. She's just been there a week at this point and perhaps she just

didn't know that she needed to push it a bit harder. Bardi also noted however that the mesh door was just latched from the outside it wasn't locked. It's also important to note at this point that when you come in through the metal gate before you get to the mesh door when you're walking down that passageway we told you about there is the door to Hemraj's room. If you go through this door you enter Hemraj's quarters within the flat and you can do that without going into the main part of the rest of the flat. But from Hemraj's room, there is an adjoining door that takes you into the main part of the flat where the family live. So after throwing the keys down to Parati, I'm butchering that fucking name, man. But every time I say it, I'm going to say it differently.

So if it's a different name, it's her. Nufur heard her husband Rajesh calling after her. And he'd woken up and come out of his bedroom to find a bottle of whiskey on the dining table. He was confused. They'd all gone to bed at 11 the previous night and no one had been drinking. So why was it out? Rajesh asked Nupur about the whiskey and she said she didn't know. So together they decided to ask Arushi. As they walked towards her room, they noticed something odd. Her bedroom door was ajar. 13 year old Arushi never slept with her door open. And something important that we have to cover here is that

Arushi had a lock on her bedroom door and a lot of people just like the family having a driver make an enormous deal about this implying that her parents were locking her up in her room or something like that. Like when people lock the fridges to stop their children eating in the middle of the night. But we did a little bit of digging and pretty soon we realised that it's not actually that sinister. Just like the other door in the house, Arushi's bedroom automatically locked when it was shut and it could be opened very easily from the inside or from the outside with a key. Nupur always kept the keys to Arushi's room on her bedside table, but seeing as that morning the door was unlocked, her parents just walked in.

To their horror, upon entering Arushi's room, they saw that the walls, the floor, and the back of the door were covered in blood. Arushi was laying on her bed covered in a white flannel blanket, surrounded by all of her soft toys. Rajesh rushed forward and lifted the blanket and saw that Arushi was dead. Her throat had been cut and there was a massive wound to her forehead. Her pillow and bed were soaked in blood. It had dripped all over her mattress and onto the floor below. Oddly, her head had been partly covered by her favourite bag, a camo print tote. Her mobile, always on her bedside table, was also missing, but some money and her iPod were still there. Seeing his daughter dead, Rajesh lost it. He began screaming and crying and banging his head against the wall. Nupur, however, was apparently

too shocked to move. And by this point, because remember this is happening very quickly, she's thrown the keys down to Bharati, she's come back inside, they've gone into Arishi's room. By this point, Bharati, the maid maid has let herself in and entered the flat. When she came in she recalled that the Talwas were hysterical and she said at first she just thought maybe there'd been a burglary but to her shock she claimed that suddenly Nupur came out of the room and threw her arms around her and cried saying quote come and see what Hemraj has done. So Bharati went with Nupur into Arushi's room, and she couldn't believe what she saw. The Thalwas then asked Bharati to go and call the security guards at the apartment complex and ask them to call the police.

The Uttar Pradesh police arrived an hour later. And that feels like a very long time to get there. But after this, everything in this case moves at a frighteningly rapid pace. Again, something to clarify here because a lot of people, again, make a big deal about it. The fact that the parents don't just automatically call the police themselves. They have, part of the rundown, call the security guards and get them to call the police. Again, that isn't that unusual. Basically, in India, what I'm saying is people love to outsource everything. You have somebody who drives you around.

You have somebody that cooks for you. You have somebody that calls the police for you. If you are like a middle class family, which is what the Talwars were, this isn't that unusual. So obviously, the main question on everyone's mind, and probably your mind, dear listener, was where the fuck was Hemraj? I can see why Nupur's reaction is look what Hemraj has done, because he's the only one that was there and is now no longer there. I can understand that reaction. Exactly. I don't think it necessarily indicates that she knows more than everyone else or anything like that. No, I think it is quite like a natural assumption to jump to at that point for her. On top of him just not being there, remember Nupur

had placed a call to Hemraj that morning that had been cut off and now that phone was completely switched off. So the Talvars and the police were sure that it a call to Hemraj that morning that had been cut off, and now that phone was completely switched off. So the Talvars and the police were sure that it must have been Hemraj that had killed Arushi. He had worked for them for just eight months, and although they had liked him, it had to be him. After calling the police, the Talvars called six other people to the house. They called Nupur's parents, Rajesh's brother and his wife, and their closest friends, the Durranis. They were also dentists, and they worked with the Talvars at their clinic. They come up again later, so stick one of your many pins

that you're going to need for this episode. Stick it right in the Durranis. You're going to need a big fucking pin cushion for this particular case because, yeah, lots of pins being placed. I also thought this is what kind of was like a little bit also reminiscent of the JonBenet Ramsey case that they invite loads of people round to the house immediately, like before the police even get there.

And all of these people, quite astonishingly, are there by 6.45am. That is very early. The only reason this is the case is because obviously they discover Arushi's body like just after six in the morning when Bharati arrives. And if you guys remember, Nupur's parents, Rajesh's brother and his wife, and actually we didn't mention this before, but the Durranis all live in the same apartment complex. So they literally just walk from their flats to the Talwar's flat.

Okay. And I suppose if someone rings you and is like, my daughter's dead, you're not going to be like, oh, I just need another 20 minutes. Snooze. Yeah, let me just brush my hair just gotta put my face on don't worry like obviously you're not gonna do that you're just gonna go there straight away and they weren't the only ones to come to the flat either within hours of Arushi's body being

found the flat was swarming with people police the press friends family and just curious randoms again very JonBenet Ramsey there's's absolutely no order, no control, and the police completely failed to cordon the place off. So there is no crime scene, so to speak, off. I mean, you are just going to see that everything that happens in this first, like, ten hours is just unbelievable. And bizarrely, not only are these visitors allowed to come into the flat and fucking be there and walk around, some of them seem to even start doing

little investigations of their own the talvars they're not like the elite of the elite but they are from like a very middle class background all of their friends seem to be either doctors or dentists or lawyers so these people come around and they're clearly quite investigative people possibly we can say and a particular doctor couple friend of the talvars who had come by just to help started looking around the flat for clues and they were actually the ones who spotted some blood on the stairs leading up to the terrace in the Talwars house. They told the police and asked for the keys but Rajesh said that he didn't know where they were. He claimed that it was usually Hemraj who locked

and unlocked the terrace door so he just didn't know. At that point it seems that nothing more was done to try and open this door despite the fact that there looked like there was blood leading up there. Now a lot of the way in which this crime scene was handled is absolutely fucking appalling and while UP police, so that's Dharbhidesh police, don't have the best reputation anyway, I think possibly another contributing factor to the lack of investigative talent on site could have been that the next day the Indian Prime Minister was coming to Noida. So I do think that the police department therefore seemed to have been a bit more distracted than usual but like this is the fucking murder of a 13 year old

child in her bed in her home. Some prioritization would be good but like i said you know don't send me any hate if you're from there but up police don't have the best reputation but whatever the reason for all this fucking fuckery the problem was that a lot of mistakes were made in this initial period so within that sort of 24 hours first 24 hours that fucked this case hard forever and led to vital gaps in evidence that can now never be filled. It's too late. It's gone. That evidence is just no longer there. It's immediately been destroyed. As the morning unfolded, the Talvars were frantic. They told the police to stop wasting their time at the house and go and find Hemraj. They even offered to pay for the police to go to Nepal, to the village Hemraj was originally from. Again, when you see this reported in a lot of places, people are like, they were

bribing the police, offering them money to leave the flat. And I was like, oh my God, if they did that, that's fucking outrageous. When you look into why they were offering the money, they were saying Hemraj is originally from Nepal, a village there. To get from like Noida, Delhi region to Nepal, yeah, it's going to take him a couple of days. It's like 600 kilometers or something. But if he's on a night bus or something, he's headed in that direction. And they think naturally if he's done a run, he's going to head back to his home country.

And there isn't like necessarily a ton of border control between India and Nepal. You can pretty much freely move through. So they are just trying to get the police to move quickly because I think the problem is that the Talvas don't see the importance of an investigation being done at the flat because they just think it is Hemraj. What more do you need? Just go find him. Someone else nipped over the Nepal border that we've done. I can't remember which one it was. You know the one I mean though, don't you? I do. British guy. It's gone. Can't remember. Sorry, guys. Oh, it was, I know, I know, I know.

It was the Hannah Foster case. Oh, yep, you're a genius. Well done. Tick. Otherwise that would have been so fucking annoying for everyone listening. So the police just continue to do not very much, showing their gross ineptitude, and the Talvars decided to take action. Rajesh's brother called a doctor

friend of his, who in turn called another doctor friend of his, who in turn called a patient of his, KK Gautam, a retired Noidak police officer. Can I just say how fucking Indian that is? That, like, as long as you're well connected there, if you know somebody, you can get

shit done. If you don't know anybody, you're fucked and you're at the done. If you don't know anybody, you're fucked and you're at the behest of like bureaucracy and bribery and being pushed to the back of the queue. Here, he's just like, Rajesh brother, I know a person. Call, call, call, made. Suddenly they have somebody who can help them. And that's just how it works there. Can we go? We can. Let's go. It'll be fucking hard work. You sound super jazzed about it. Let's decide it. Fuck the South Downs.

We're going to India. Red-handed on tour in India. Priority. Although KK Gowdang was a retired, he was a very influential man in Noida. And he also loved a bit of the limelight. So when he got this call, knowing that this would be blown up into a huge case, he agreed without hesitation to help.

He immediately made some calls and had the post-mortem sped up. At 11am, Dr Sunil Doher, the pathologist, got a call from a superior saying that he needed to get down to the clinic as soon as he possibly could and get the autopsy done. So Dr Doher did as he was told and got the autopsy done by 1pm that very same day. Arushi's body was then released back to her family. So within seven hours of her discovery, Arushi's body was back in the Talvar home on slabs of ice, ready for visitors to come and pay their respects. Her cremation was scheduled

for that evening. And again, this, when you see it in Western reports of this case, I understand why people are like, that is fucking crazy. It is. I get it. And the problem here, obviously, is that there is no doubt about it. There's not like a question that was it a natural death? Was it possibly a suicide? Was it something else that doesn't maybe warrant an investigation? No. Arushi was clearly murdered. It is 100% a suspicious death. But they were ready by that evening. So within 12 hours of her body being discovered to destroy the body. Absolutely the most vital piece of evidence in the entire case. And a lot of people on the internet rightfully point out that this maybe makes

the parents look very guilty. After all, why would they rush through all of this stuff? Like the body being autopsied, the body being returned to them and the cremation planned, if they weren't involved, if they didn't have something to hide, if there was something on Arushi's body that they didn't want discovered. But the thing is that the police had told the family that they had everything that they needed and they were allowed to have Arushi's body back and cremate her. People also point to the fact that why are they calling this pathologist through their connections to have the post-mortem rushed through and like why is it somebody that they are like connected to again i just can't stress enough like how like that is just such a part of like the indian

institution like if they had waited around for the post-mortem to have been done in like their own time in the investigation zone time it could have taken weeks for it to be done and they just want an answer quickly that can also be a reason here and I think as for like her being brought back to the house and being cremated culturally and religiously speaking especially for Hindus which the Talwaz are you always cremate a body you don't bury a body so that's why she's being cremated and it would also be seen as horrific to wait to cremate the body of your loved ones it would be seen as quite as like a despicable thing to do and as for bringing Arushi's body home and allowing visitors to come again to the flat and

fucking traipse around again firstly the police allowed this to happen it is of course ridiculous because the house is a fucking murder scene. But again, culturally, it would have been quite unimaginable for the family to not have had people come and pay their respects and grieve. It's just something that is done. Now, I'm not saying that that should have been allowed to happen. I'm not saying that that cultural sensitivity should have taken precedent. I'm not saying that. I'm just saying that when the parents are being told by the police that they can have her body back, that they can have people over at the house, why wouldn't they? Especially if they do believe that the killer was Hemraj and if they think that all the police need to do is find him and that they don't need anything else from Arushi or the flat because that's what they're being told. However, we do understand that the more suspicious minded amongst us, perhaps the tinfoil hat wearers, may think that the family were purposefully rushing things through and inviting people over to walk all over everything and destroy evidence because they had killed

Arushi. So let's have a look at this super speedy post-mortem that went on and discuss what the pathologist noted down. According to the autopsy, Arushi had died between 12am and 1am of blunt force trauma to the head. She was already dead when her throat had been slit. The pathologist also noted that he'd found no injuries to Arushi's genitals. Nothing, in fact, according to him, was abnormal with respect to her sexual organs. But he said that he had taken swabs of her vagina and sent them off to rule out rape. The results came back that night, and there was no sign of rape or sexual assault. So, with that, the Talbars went ahead and had Arushi cremated that night.

Back at the flat, some of the relatives who were visiting started cleaning the place up. And police said that this was fine. They completely allowed them to do this. And they even let them clean up Arushi's room. Presumably because they think they're on top of it. What else could they possibly need apart from the nothing that they have? No, you're right. It is just completely crazy. This idea that they let them clean up the fucking

murder scene, the room by that evening. It is unimaginable. And honestly, I don't know if it's just like, well, i do know that it is complete incompetence on the part of the uttar pradesh police like that is without a shadow of a fucking doubt but like how can they be this incompetent now i think also like from the relative's point of view again culturally speaking the only thing i can say as to why they're fucking cleaning this house up is from the perspective of the family they would have wanted to clean the place from top to bottom. Because a house in which there has been a body and a funeral ceremony is tainted.

You have to scrub it away. You have to smoke out the bad energy. I remember my grandmother always telling my granddad, so he would go to funerals or something and he would come back home and she wouldn't let him in the house. He would have to go into the garden, take off all his clothes, shower and wash in the garden and then he was allowed into the house. You can't bring that bad energy into the house from a funeral home. Wasn't that also because he'd been notching on some cows?

Oh, for sure. That was also that. So my grandmother is a very, very orthodox Hindu woman, very much vegan. She won't even pick up an egg that That level of a tip. My grandad, not so much. And he was a professor and so all of his students used to invite him to their weddings and stuff like this even after he retired. My grandad is not getting any meat at home

and he loves a bit of meat. So whenever he got the opportunity, he would go to all of these weddings, even if he couldn't fucking remember the kid. Go chomp down on some delicious meat, some delicious biryani if he can get it they come home my grandma would know what he's been up to get out into the garden and hose yourself off before you come into my house i love that story so much she is on another planet but we love her so i do

think that the people so the relatives of the talvars who clean up are genuinely just trying to be helpful the question here is what the fuck are the police doing allowing them to do it? That is beyond me. I don't understand. So the following morning after Arushi's body had been discovered they've cremated her. It's now the 17th of May 2011 and the Talvars were getting ready to set off to the city of Hardivar to scatter Arushi's ashes in the Ganges. Again in the Hindu belief system if to scatter arushi's ashes in the ganges again in the hindu belief system if you scatter a person's ashes into the ganges it'll transport them to like a better afterlife so again for your loved one if you really believe that it is an important ritual for you to perform and fuck it they've already had her cremated at this point what does it matter what they do with

their ashes yeah it doesn't really matter where like i mean obviously culturally it matters very much where you put them. But in terms of the investigation, zero. Absolutely fucking none. They've bleached that fucking room. They've cleaned it all up. They've cremated her body. Off you go. So the Talwar set off. But as soon as they had, Dinesh, so Rajesh's brother, who had stayed behind at the flat to manage the police, called them and told them to come back home. Another body had been found in their flat. And when they got home, they found retired police officer KK Gautam seemingly running the show. So where, might we ask, the fuck were the actual senior investigators? This guy's just like a local celebrity and he's been retired for years. He just comes in and takes

over and they're like, okay, carry on then. then you've got this yeah. So apparently he just arrived that morning and found that the British police hadn't opened the terrace door. When he demanded to know why they just said that they couldn't find the key. Fucking top-notch detective work lads. Like get a fucking hairpin like in the famous vibe. I actually picked my bike lock with a kirby grip the other day and i've never felt so fucking cool oh my god get you i was like oh yeah this is it city slicker just call me p.i mcguire that is amazing do you know what i would love to do i've just had this thought and i actually think it could be really fun is if we made little mini like clips of us escaping from potentially life-threatening situations with nothing more than like what's in our pockets but you can have a kirby grip in your pocket and you have to pick a lock okay and then we can try open a door with a

fucking credit card and try get out of cable ties shall we do it i don't know the answer to how to do any of these things get thrown into a crocodile with only a bucket and spade there you go get out it's good i'm into it. Let's do it. Someone give us a name. Right. Fantastic. That's that. Oh, well, I think like it won't be this week's Under the Duvet.

It'll be next week's Under the Duvet. I've got a fucking corker of an empty handed for everyone. So make sure you tune in for that. Uh oh. Oh, okay. I literally told my friend what had happened and she was like, Hannah, that story can't be real. Why does this only happen to you? Oh no, mate. I'm right there next to you in the empty-handed boat. Don't worry about it.

And I'm also enjoying people sharing their empty-handed stories on all the social medias where you can follow us at Red Handed The Pod. Slick. So, the terrace door. Gautam pointed out that there seemed to be almost literal footprints of blood leading to the terrace, almost like something had been dragged. But the police, rather nonchalantly, just told him that the day before they had tried to move Arushi's bloody mattress out of the way and onto the terrace. So it was the police that had dragged it over. So they're just, not only are they letting people trample around and clean everything, they're just moving shit

as well. Why were they like, we need to get this bloody mattress out of the way? Out of the way for what? Out of the way for what? Out of the way for all the cleaning that was taking place. It's fucking ludicrous. They need to get a lodger in. Got to get rid of that mattress, get a new one. Mate, they are like dragging the bloody mattress around the house, creating blood trails to the point that they then can't tell

what was there before they got there and what they created. And also they can't find the key to the store. I think I have to say, this is the worst case handling we've ever seen on this show. Oh yeah. So the police tried to drag the mattress over to the terrace, but then they remembered the door was locked, so they dragged it in the other direction and put it somewhere else. KK Gautam was quite rightly horrified

and he had the door to the terrace broken down immediately. And it was instantly clear that the blood wasn't just from the mattress-dra dragging extravaganza that the hapless police had taken upon themselves to create because the blood trail carried on on the other side of the door and onto the terrace which had been locked the entire time they followed the trail and there they found in the may heat of india hemorrhages decaying corpse it was laying under a cooling panel that had hidden the body from view of the neighbouring balconies. That must have stunk. How did they not sniff it out?

I really, really do not know. I have no clue. Because May in India is the hottest month of the year. That is peak summer. We're talking like 45, 50 degrees. It is scorching. His body is like completely bloated, like such rapid decomposition. How did they not realize? I don't know. And just like the natural curiosity that one would expect from a police officer to be like, maybe we should try to get behind this door that seems suspiciously locked no cool so

again people make a big deal of this because the police show Rajesh the body and ask him to identify it he says he doesn't know the body is like very very badly decomposed even though it's only been out there for like a day and a half at this point he later does say oh I think it is Hemraj because he recognizes the t-shirt that the body is wearing. So Hemraj is then taken off to have an autopsy done and his injuries were discovered to be very similar to that of Arushi's. He too had died of blunt force trauma injury to the back of his head and his throat had also been cut. Just like Arushi, he too had been killed between 11am and 1am the same night that Arushi died. When they checked his stomach contents they found that he had no alcohol or food in his stomach and this matched up with

the fact that they also found the dinner that he had made for himself the last night that he had been alive sitting untouched in the kitchen. So judging by the bloody drag marks on the floor as well as scrapes to Hemraj's body, they judged that after he had been killed, he had been dragged probably at least 20 feet across the terrace. And looking at the blood spatter, it also seemed most likely that Hemraj had been killed on the terrace itself. Though this would become a contentious point in the future, so we'll come back to it, get another pin out, put it in the pin cushion. Out on the terrace, the police also found a bloody palm print. It was in Hemraj's blood, but it wasn't his palm print.

They also found a shoe print in the blood on the floor. It was a size 8 or 9, and it wasn't Hemraj's own footprint. When the police searched Hemraj's room, they found that his bed was still made, like he had never gone to sleep that night. They also found that his mobile, just like Arushi's, was missing. And when they looked into his cell activity, the police discovered that the last call that Hemraj had received was at 8.27 on the night of the murders,

and it had come from a public payphone about a kilometre away from the Talva's flat, and it had lasted about six minutes. To this day, we have no idea who made this call. The next two calls after this that Hemraj's phone received were in the morning and they were from Nupur when she realised the gate was locked. These calls had pinged off a cell tower near the Talvar's flat so even in the morning, by which point Hemraj had already been dead for hours, his phone was still in the area and given that it was answered and then turned off, someone clearly had hold of it. So let's handle a couple of main points before we move on.

There were six security guards on duty around the apartment complex that night. All of them said that they hadn't seen anyone come or go from the Talvars flat that night. And this is by no means definitive. These kind of guards roam around all over the place and they could easily have missed someone. The next point that we have to deal with is Arushi's room. A lot of the claims are that no one could have got into her room unless she had let them in or they had a key. Nupur said that she may have accidentally left the keys to Arushi's room in her door when she'd gone to turn

the router on and off. But it seems a huge coincidence that the night she does that, someone got in and found them. However, according to N the next day the keys were found on top of a statue by the entrance to the flat and she said that she would never have put them there it's difficult when i spent two hours the other day looking for my keys it's so stressful and because like i've got the car now to replace a car key is like 300 400 pounds so i was shitting my pants couldn't find them anywhere they were behind the mop in the kitchen don't worry about it guys but like my immediate reaction when i lose them is oh shit i must have left them in the front door last night and now someone's got them yeah like that's what i always think so i can understand why she was like oh well maybe i just left them in the door and

this is the thing i do understand that thinking i do also get the idea of like she normally says she keeps the keys to Arushi's room on her bedside table. So what are the chances that that one night she left them in Arushi's door and somebody just happened to get in and break into her room? Not impossible. But then the fact that Nupur says that they turn up on top of a statue in the like entrance of the flat, which she never would have left them there. It's confusing. We don't know. And of course, not everyone believes Nupur that the keys had gone walkabout that night and again this is made a huge deal of in the media so basically what they're

saying is well it must have been a rishi who let somebody in but she probably wouldn't have done that because you know whatever like who's this mystery person in the flat so it must have been the parents because they were the only ones that could have got into her room because they had the keys but what i did find during my digging, however, was that contrary to popular reporting on this case, the main door to Arushi's room wasn't the only way in. This is also not even obvious on the diagrams of the flat that we will share with you guys.

So even if Arushi's door was shut and locked, you could still access her room through the guest loo because this guest loo was connected to Arushi's door was shut and locked you could still access her room through the guest loo because this guest loo was connected to Arushi's toilet and through this sort of en suite in Arushi's room you could get into her room so it's not that the front door to Arushi's room is the only way in so whoever it was who killed Arushi because we know she was killed in that room could have had the keys could have been let in by Arushi herself or they could have gone in through the guest loo. All of these flats in that apartment complex are the exact same. So you wouldn't even have to have like an intimate knowledge of the Talwa's place to know this fact. So from here on out, this case becomes more and

more of a mess. The police have already clearly botched the crime scene. But there is so much more to come in the form of missing evidence, corruption, chaos and a whole load of lies. With their first suspect, Hemraj, now dead, the police needed a new suspect. And they found this suspect in the shape of 15-year-old Anmol Agraval, the kid who had been chatting to Arushi and who had been trying to call and text her the night that she was killed. Given that Anmol was the last one to try to reach Arushi that night, the police picked him up and interviewed him on the 22nd of May. It was a harrowing interrogation and they terrified the poor boy by confronting him with the 688 messages that he had exchanged with Arushi, accusing him of killing her when she had turned

him down. Anmol eventually broke down and said that he wasn't the only one Arushi, accusing him of killing her when she had turned him down. Anmol eventually broke down and said that he wasn't the only one Arushi had been chatting to. He said that Arushi had lots of boyfriends. The police asked Anmol if Arushi was easy, and he agreed. She literally isn't even 14. And is that not like the most classic fucking victim blaming? In the like purest form, because she's like, she's a fucking child and she's just texting some boys maybe she even fucking wasn't maybe he's just making it up and then the police are just like oh okay that makes sense then obviously that's the case oh

absolutely a major theme of this entire case becomes about how the Uttar Pradesh police absolutely fucking vilified a 13-year-old murder victim by calling her, quote, characterless. That translates to slut. They fucking go after this child about this because of, like, text messages she's sending. It is sickening. But after their harassing of Anmol,

I think even the Uttar Pradesh police realised that they weren't going to be able to pin this fucking double murder on a 15 year old kid so they made a big old pivot the next day they called the Talwars into the police station to identify a suspect the Talwars made their way there but they were pursued relentlessly by the press

and the paparazzi to the station it was complete chaos so as they were headed in possibly to avoid the media circus that would unfold the police called the family and told them complete chaos. So as they were headed in, possibly to avoid the media circus that would unfold, the police called the family and told them to just turn back. So they did. And this was all caught on CCTV. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus.

In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life life i still haven't found him this is a story that i came across purely by chance but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where i've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health this is season two of finding and this time if all goes to plan we'll be finding and. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and

ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made, a seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing.

From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle,

the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery+. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial today. The very next day, the 23rd of May, so it's now been a week since the actual murders, the Talvars were again called in for questioning.

When they arrived, Nupur and Rajesh were separated to be interviewed. Rajesh, mushed to his utter confusion, was sat and confronted with the CCTV footage from the previous day. The police used the videos to accuse him of trying to flee. And with that, he was swiftly arrested for the murder of his daughter. This is so weird. They tell them to turn back. It's all caught on CCTV. Then they show them the footage and say, you were meant to come in yesterday and here's you turning back and going home and fleeing.

What was that about? Makes you look pretty suspicious. We're going to arrest you. What the fuck? Rajesh gave a statement to the media straight after where he looked completely broken and screamed that he was being framed. Meanwhile, the inspector general of the police held a triumphant press conference claiming that they had solved the case. In this press conference, alongside reiterating that she was characterless, the Inspector General of the police repeatedly called Arushi Shruti, which is by no means her name or your name, even though a lot of people think it is. A lot of people call me Shruti or Shruti. A lot of people in my own family call me that because it is much more like the common name rather than how my name is spelt or said.

But it certainly fucking wasn't anywhere close to Arushi's name what the fuck this entire case the way the police give absolutely no fuck about Arushi or Hemraj as well they get even less of a fuck about Hemraj because he is just like a poor Nepali man who lives in India and works as like a domestic servant person they do not give a fuck it's horrific okay they've arrested Rajesh at this point. So what was the motive that the police had decided on? I can hear you scream. Well, the inspector claimed that there were a couple of possibilities. They basically have a couple of possibilities and they smash them all together and then this is what they come up with. They say that perhaps Rajesh was having an affair with Anita Durrani. You'll remember earlier that one of

the six people that the Talvars called over that day were the Durranis, who were another dentist couple who shared a Talvars clinic with them and live in the same apartment complex. Arushi had found out about Rajesh's affair and she'd been so heartbroken that she had turned to Hemraj, the 45-year-old cook, for comfort. And when we say comfort, they mean sexual comfort. This entire theory is completely mind-boggling. Because obviously, because she was texting a boy, evidently. She's a slut. Like, oh my god. Don't let your men near her. She's gonna fucking look to them for comfort. Yeah, she's a man-eater. She's a 13-year-old fucking predatory man-eater. She's a praying mantis. She'll just like have sex with them and just rip their heads off. That's it. That's what happened here. So yeah, basically they're saying this is what happened

and that Rajesh had found the two of them, meaning Arushi and Hemraj, in a quote-unquote compromising position in her bedroom on the night in question and killed them both in a rage-induced honor killing. Right. The other option was that Rajesh was still having this affair with Anita Durrani, but the hemorrhage was the one who had now found out and he was blackmailing his employer. So Rajesh had killed him and perhaps Arushi had witnessed it. So therefore, to cover up his affair and his murderous rampage, he had to kill his daughter too. Okay, okay. All right, let's go with it.

There are so many problems with this case, but let's start with a really obvious one. To this day, the murder weapons have never been conclusively identified. But the police claimed that Rajesh had used his golf clubs to inflict the blows on Arushi and Hemraj's head, and that he had then used his dentist's scalpel to cut their throats. After this, he had then drunk the whiskey that was found out on the dining table and Nupur had helped him cover the whole thing up. In response to this of course the Talwars accused the police of acting out of desperation and of framing them in order to cover up their massively botched investigation. Also in what world is Nupur covering up for her husband Raja? She had an

affair and then killed their daughter. Why would she do that? Doesn't even make any fucking sense. No. And like, why would they call the police if they're trying to cover it up? Exactly. Oh, my God. What is vital to say about the Uttar Pradesh police theory is that there was no investigation done to come to this conclusion. It's just a fairy tale. But despite no evidence, this didn't stop the police coming out and delivering their full theory on the case on television and saying that they'd solved the whole fucking thing. And predictably, the press went wild. They loved the story. A middle class family, an affair, a promiscuous

teenager, grisly double murder, fucking bingo. They loved that shit. Day after day, the headlines just got more and more salacious around the story of Dr. Death and the House of Horrors. And the press pounced all over the theory that the police were touting. Many of the news channels, in inverted commas you put here, even ran nightly reconstructions of the theory. One TV anchor even went on set to do his evening show the day that Rajesh was arrested, having dipped his hands in red paint. India's crazy, man. It is. It's fucking crazy. I will leave a link because basically what you're going to find if you go and try to find out more

about this case is when you put it into YouTube, which is usually my first port of call, let's see if there are any documentaries out there, whatever. It's all going to come up in Hindi. That is a problem. There is like only one interview or a couple of interviews out there with the parents that are done in English on channels like NDTV which are English speaking news channels in India. The rest of it that are like made by these news channels are made for a very specific demographic.

They're very like Nancy Grace-esque. They're very like Fox News, yelling and screaming and blood painted hands and all this fucking theatrical nonsense. No one was concerned with getting to the facts or getting to the truth. They were just there for the drama. After his arrest, the police seized Rajesh's laptop and they swiftly released vast amounts of information straight to the media. The police's entire plan here was not to bother investigating anything at all, simply to force a narrative, demonize everyone and attack the character of everyone involved so much

that like I said the public would lose all interest in the facts of what had actually happened and just be focused instead on making accusations of immorality against the Talvas. The police even leaked emails between Arushi and her parents as well as all of Arushi's social media and loads and loads of her WhatsApp messages. The issue here is that they release stuff with absolutely no context and they don't release everything. They very much cherry pick what they think will help their case. And, you know, if we're talking about this in like the courtroom, it's a classic courtroom tactic.

And then you've got the other side that is able to provide the context and refute what the other side is saying. You're there to tell a story. But this kind of, like, just leaking stuff to the press during a fucking active investigation. What can we call this apart from, it is just trial by media? As, like, hack-eyed as that sounds, that is what this is. First, the WhatsApp messages and the social media they released of Arushi

was to paint her as a slag. In these chats, she's talking to her friends, and like any 14-year-old girls would do, they talk about boys. But there's nothing out of the ordinary in there at all. But this was a full-blown character assassination of the Talvars. Some of the disjointed emails released read as follows. Arushi to Rajesh. I wanted to try it out because I heard from my friends, but I understand how you're feeling. Apparently this text was about sex. Is it? Is it? Obviously,

I am not Indian, so I don't know. But I would imagine that sex is just kind of not discussed. No. Unless you're married. Even then, maybe not. Never with your parents. Like, I don't think she'd casually send a text to her dad being like, oh yeah, everyone else is fucking, so I just thought I'd have a go, but I understand why you're upset. That doesn't seem like that fits. And I'm sorry, even here, could somebody tell me, would you as a 13, almost 14-year-old girl text your dad and say,

about sex, I just wanted to try out because I heard about it from my friends, but I understand how you're feeling. Absolutely fucking not. Can you imagine? What the fuck is happening? This is unbelievable. Oh my god. And they also fail to mention when they're releasing this little snippet that that email was actually sent two years before Arushi was killed so when she's like 11. She wouldn't have even been 12 at that point. But who cares about facts when you've got some covering up to do? Another message that got leaked

was again sent by Arushi to her dad and in it she's apologising for something she did that he didn't approve of. But seeing as she added lols at the end of the message, it seems like it probably wasn't that serious and certainly not for having sex with Hemraj. Yeah, that's what they make it sound like.

They make it sound like this message she sends where he's disapproving of something she did was because he had suspicions that she was quote-unquote having a sexual affair with the fucking live-in domestic worker. LOLs. So anyway, they use all these messages to build a case against Arushi

and to claim that it showed that relations between her and her dad were severely strained. They were trying so hard to force the evidence to fit their narrative. It's barely even evidence. They're just trying to find anything to fit their narrative. But it barely even did that if anyone had taken the time to actually read it properly and to put it into context. Because even if you look at the way that Arushi is emailing her parents, because I've read a few more of these emails, I think it actually shows the opposite of a strained relationship. I actually think it shows like a really open-minded liberal attitude. And the fact that she can even talk to them or write to them in emails and texts about stuff that she wants to open up about, I think

surely that shows like a healthy relationship rather than one that is completely strained where she's trying to hide everything from them. And also this isn't to mention the fact that Arushi and her parents pepper all of their emails and their texts with love you in capital letters. It doesn't seem like a dysfunctional family to me at all. And this is with them even cherry picking the best shit they could. Yeah, this is the best they could come up with, when actually they're just picking out random words and sort of shoving them together. And they still couldn't find anything that damning. Definitely. And I think like a big part of it is they're like, it was an honor killing because

they found like Arushi was such a slut and she had all these boyfriends. But like, I would say in an ordinary Indian family, like you wouldn't even talk about that kind of stuff, like even having crushes or even fancying like like, a celebrity with your parents, because it would just be too cringe. But, like, Arushi, in some of these messages, and according to her parents, were like, we knew she was talking to boys. It's normal. And also, there was constant, like, messages and posters in her house of Johnny Depp, because she absolutely fucking loved him.

That in itself, the fact that she was open about that, shows that the Talvas were relatively liberal and open-minded about this kind of thing. They just knew it was part of growing up. I cannot believe that they killed her because she was speaking to fucking Anmal on the phone. We'll come on to reasons why the whole Hemraj thing is a mess anyway. But anyway, let's move on and talk about the affair. This is the affair that the police accused Rajesh of having with Anita Durrani. It's simple. Both Rajesh and Anita have always denied it. And there has never been any evidence at all of any affair. Zero evidence. They have no evidence. No one has confessed to it. Nothing.

They're just fucking making shit up. They're just making shit up. So, you know, let's stick to the theme for a second of things that they had absolutely no evidence for, because there was absolutely zero evidence the police were able to point to of a sexual assault or any sort of, like, ongoing sexual abuse between Arushi and Hemraj. And even the Talvas, even though they had initially suspected Hemraj, they claimed since then that they'd never felt anything weird with him. They'd always liked him, and he had never given them a reason to be suspicious of him. Also, Arushi showed none of the signs of being abused. She was a happy, bubbly, outgoing, straight-A student.

If that night had been the first time Hemraj had decided to assault Arushi, there was no evidence of that. And the biggest issue with this whole idea is that the police tried to claim that Hemraj and Arushi had both been killed in her room. But remember, we told you that we would come back to this. The only place that Hemraj's blood was found was out on the terrace. None of Hemraj's blood was found in Arushi's room. And the police claim

that the scene had been staged and his blood had been cleaned from Arushi's room. Firstly, why? And secondly, how? If you're cleaning up some of the blood, how are you cleaning up Hemraj's blood and then just leaving Arushi's blood? Like, how do you separate them? There's just no way. That's impossible. That's just completely impossible. Yeah. Just clean away all of his blood and don't touch any of Arushi's. It's absolutely mind-boggling.

There were some accusations in the media that the Talvars, both being medically trained, both dentists, obviously, they could tell, I can't even say it, they could tell blood types apart with the naked eye. Yep. Because they were dentists. Oh my God, come on. I mean, mate, it's just unbelievable. So as you can see, there are a lot of problems here for the police with their whole theory and their whole idea of pointing the finger at the Talwars. And I know that the crime scene was massively botched. So whatever we are missing may well have pointed to the Talwars guilt. I'm not here to say that they definitely didn't do it. I don't know. What I'm saying is the police's case against the Talwars

is fucking flimsy at best. And yeah, like I said, if the scene had been better preserved, if Arushi hadn't been cremated so quickly, maybe there would have been stuff that pointed to the Talvars' guilt. But we cannot ignore all of the things that the police ignore, that point to it not being them. Like, for example, remember the bloody footprint out on the terrace? And the fact that we we told you was a size 8 or 9? Rajesh was a size 6. How is it his footprint, you know? Is he just decided to put on some bigger shoes because he's thrown off the police and he just leaves one footprint? Like, they never explain any of this. They never explain any of this. But before anyone out there who thinks, you know, that we're just totally ignoring the points that do maybe point to it being the Talvars being involved, let's consider some of those. The biggest question for me is if we're,

you know, trying to say it's not the Talvars, is how did they not hear what happened in Arushi's room that night? Looking at the internet usage from that night, Rajesh was still up and using the Wi-Fi until at least 12.08am. According to the post-mortem, both Arushi and Hemraj died between 12am and 1am. How did he not hear what happened? Because, like we said, we definitely know from the blood in her room that Arushi was definitely killed in there. And their rooms are right next to each other. Her parents' room and Arushi's room are right next to each other.

The only thing that, like, people do suggest is that it's because, although their rooms were right next to each other. Her parents' room and Arushi's room are right next to each other. The only thing that like people do suggest is that it's because although their rooms were right next to each other, their beds were on opposite sides of these rooms and opposite sides of the flat. So maybe that's why they weren't like, you know, pushed up right next to each other. And also the other thing that people do say is that like we said, it was May in India, the hottest month of the year. So the air con would have been turned up to the absolute max and the sound of this according to the Talwars had drowned everything out and experiments were actually done that showed the air con did indeed cause a lot of noise interference. Another weird point we have to mention is Nupur's phone. It was switched off between 7 40 p.m on 15th of May, so about four hours before

Arushi was killed, and 1pm on the 18th of May. And looking at her records, in the last 12 months leading up to the night of her daughter's death, Nupur had never turned her phone off once. So why did she turn it off that night? But let's leave these issues and come on to the police's other major point. They say that the scene had been dressed up. And we kind of agree with this to an extent. Arushi was found in her bed and everything was covered in blood except the soft toys surrounding her body, the blanket and the bag on her head. It seemed that someone had placed them there after she had been attacked. And yes, I think when you consider that, it makes this crime feel very personal. Why would a random intruder or sex attacker kill a

rushi brutally, smash her over the head and then cut her throat and then cover her up with a blanket and carefully place toys around her dead body and a bag on her head? Usually when we see bodies treated with such care and when the faces are covered up it usually indicates both a personal connection between the killer and the victim and it's also usually a sign of remorse on the killer's part compare this so the way in which harushi's body was treated to the way in which hemraja's body was left it was dragged across the terrace covered in a bit of plastic and just left and the plastic was only there covering him up to hide him from view it wasn't the way harushi's was where where it was carefully placed on her. So I do think that this point, the fact that Arushi's body is covered up, her toys are around her, that kind of makes

me feel like it was somebody who cared about her. I don't know. It's weird that it would be a stranger. So also the police claim that the Talvas knew that Hemraj was out on the terrace because obviously they'd put him out there according to them. And that's why they wouldn't give them the keys to the terrace but like why would you have called the police that morning before disposing of hemorrhage's body if you were planning to set him up as the killer and yes they didn't give the police the keys because they said they didn't know where the keys were but how could they possibly have thought that the police wouldn't just break down the door and find hemorrhage almost immediately well like also like what was their plan were they just going to wait till he was completely decomposed

and then be like, surprise, it's a Halloween skeleton. It's just a decoration. Don't worry about it. Exactly. They were just going to leave him to rot out there and hope no one noticed. It's ridiculous. I have no idea. It doesn't make any sense.

So another important piece of evidence often ignored is that Rajesh's driver, Umesh, told police that the clothes Rajesh was wearing on the morning of the 16th of May so that's the morning that Arushi's body is discovered were the same clothes that he'd been wearing the previous night when he'd driven him home so he's basically saying that Rajesh was wearing the same clothes the night before as he was wearing the next day so either he slept in them or he just put his old clothes back on. And this description of Rajesh's clothes matched that of the maid, Bharati. And when they looked at Rajesh's clothes, they only found Arushi's blood on them, none of Hemraj's. And also the bloodstain patterns of

Arushi's blood can be explained by him touching his daughter's body when he found her, which he admitted to. And as for Nupur, on the morning of the 16th of May, she was also wearing what she had been wearing the night before, a blue maxi dress. And we know this because in the photos that Arushi took of them from the night that she was killed, Nupur is wearing the blue dress. No blood at all is found on her clothes. So if we believe that the parents were just wearing

what they were wearing the night before, they fell asleep, and in the morning they wake up in the same clothes, how are they killing Arushi and Hemraj without getting any blood on them? Yeah, it's a point in their corner, to be honest, the fact that they're still wearing the same clothes and they're clean as whistles. But with the incredibly flimsy evidence that they had, the police carted Rajesh off to prison and they were making moves to close the case in just a week.

Despite the media being fully on board with this narrative, there was uproar amongst other organisations, particularly child protection organisations, who were livid that the police were saying that Arushi had been having an affair with Hemraj. And so on the 31st of May, two weeks after the murders, the CBI, so that's the Central Bureau of Investigation, had to get involved. There would be three investigations in total, to Pradesh police, and then two CBI investigations. The first investigative CBI team felt strongly that the Uttar Pradesh police were stitching up the Talvars, but to prove this, they needed a different suspect. And so, a month after taking over the case,

on the 12th of June 2008, they interviewed Rajesh Talvar's assistant at his dental clinic, a man named Krishna. A few days before the murders, apparently Rajesh had given Krishna quite a dressing down at work in front of everyone when he had cast a dental mould wrong. Krishna came into the CBI's attention as a potential suspect because Rajesh's driver, Umesh, had told the police that he had actually heard Krishna talking to Hemraj after the telling off saying, I'm going to deal with Rajesh. So they brought him in for questioning, but it wasn't any normal questioning. The police carried out on Krishna

what is known in India as a narco test. And when we first started reading about this case, I was sort of seeing that phrase everywhere. And I, like most of you listening, thought it was referring to some sort of like drug testing. Well, no. If you think lie detectors are bad, just prepare yourself for this.

Narco tests in India are when a suspect or a witness is injected with a substance known as sodium penthanol, i.e. truth serum, and then questioned. This particular substance induces the person into a trance-like state and makes them talk and reveal things more readily, without any fear. Alongside this narco test Krishna was also subjected to brain mapping and this is when a person sits in a soundproof room behind a one-way glass window with electrodes attached to their head and body. The subject is then shown photographs and the brain looks for waves of different frequencies looking for how the brain is responding. Essentially it's looking for neurological and physical signs of deception but like we have discussed on this show many times before, there are no universal signs of deception,

and so tests like this conducted to look for any, and thereby say that a subject is lying, are doomed to produce absolutely waste of time results. But don't worry, although the police did these tests, just like polygraphs, you'll be glad to hear that the results of such tests are inadmissible in Indian courts. The responses are deemed to have been not given with consent, even if the person consented to the test itself. The use of these tests by police is because any leads discovered off the back of the results, so the back of any answers that the suspect or the witness gives, are admissible. And so Krishna underwent these tests and claimed that he and two men, a man named Raj Kumar

and a man named Vijay, were at the flat on the night of the murders. So what's important to point out is that Krishna lived just a few houses down from the Talwar's flat and he obviously knew the family given that he worked for Rajesh. Raj Kumar worked as a domestic worker for the Durrani family. This is the other dentist couple from the clinic. They lived in the same apartment complex and Rajkumar knew the Talvars well given how close the two families were. Finally Vijay worked for the Talvars downstairs neighbor again as a domestic worker and he lived in a garage just below the Talvars flat. Krishna claimed that Hemraj had invited them all over for a few drinks in his room. He also confirmed that they were there at midnight. During his narco test, Krishna said that he had seen Rajkumar kill Arushi

and that Rajesh had nothing to do with it. But the scientists doing the test said that Krishna's answers were out of sequence and filled with attempts at deception. No shit. Like, I mean, I don't know, but I find it difficult to believe that a domestic worker who is 45 years old would have his mates round in the house in which he lives and works when the family are asleep and there's a 13 year old girl asleep. No, I don't believe it. It seems such a stretch. I mean, there is evidence that we go on to talk about later that it looks like maybe he did have somebody there because they find three like drinking glasses and two bottles of alcohol in hemorrhage's room in the quarters

that he lives in in the flat but like we'll go on to talk about how much they fucking botched that piece of evidence the interesting thing about it being these particular people is that a they would have known the layout of the flat because they work in other flats in the apartment complex that would have been exactly the same. So they could have possibly known to get into Arushi's room, you could have gone through the guest loop. The other thing is they all live in the same area. So the next day when Hemraj's phone pings in that location still, and somebody answers it and then hangs up, it is probably someone who's living quite close by that possibly did it. So there are slight things that do point to them, but like, I don't know, the motivation because like, he told him off. I don't know. So there are slight things that do point to them but like I don't know the motivation because

like he told him off. I don't know. So regardless of all the holes in this particular theory the CBI ran with it and they immediately went and searched Krishna's flat after he had said that he had seen Rajkumar do it and that he had been there. At his flat the the police found a bedsheet, a pillowcase, and what is known as a kukri, which is a Nepali knife with blood on it. The CBI and the police do not test these things for DNA. And as for the blood off the knife, they did test this, but they weren't even able to say if it was human blood. I don't know what's going on. I don't know why they choose to not test some of this stuff. It's all just very confusing. And they say that this is the murder weapon.

They don't find Arushi's blood on it. There's just something on it. But they still said that it was the knife used to kill Arushi. And with that, they arrested Rajkumar and Vijay. Both of these men then underwent the same narco polygraph and brain mapping tests as Krishna had done. And interestingly, Rajkumar, Vijay, and Krishna all gave, surprisingly, similar accounts of what had happened that night. And using these stories and confessions,

the CBI put together the following sequence of events. Hemraj invited the three men over to the Talwar's house. They arrived at around midnight and sat in his room drinking. Like we said, this part can be backed up because there were three glasses found in Hemraj's room and the bottles of alcohol. This evidence, evidence that points to the idea that other people were in the flat that night, was totally ignored by the Uttar Pradesh police who did the first investigation, even though the glasses had been found during the initial search of the flat.

They're just like, no, because we're going after the Talwars. So the second investigation done by the CBI now brings it into play. According to the men, Krishna got drunk and started talking about how Rajesh was such a prick. And they all got riled up and decided to head into the flat to Arushi's room. They snuck in there despite Hemraj trying to stop them. They found her bedroom door unlocked, or they went in through the guest loo. Once in there, Rajkumar had tried to rape Arushi, and when she started to panic, Krishna had killed her with an unknown implement. Hemraj was shocked, and the men, knowing that he'd turn on them because he really did love and

care about Arushi, took him out to the terrace and killed him there. The men all but confessed to this version of events while under the truth serum but like we said those interviews are not admissible in court. The CBI would have had to have found solid physical corroborating evidence to back up these confessions in order to do anything but they just couldn't find any at all. There was no physical evidence actually placing the men at the flat and all three of the men had alibis from either their family members or their employers saying that they were at home that night. The CBI couldn't produce any phone records either putting these men in contact with each other that night and they couldn't find any phone records to prove that they were physically near each other at all. It is weird that they all say a similar story but like it's difficult when there's literally no proof. I mean the thing that is interesting about them giving the same stories, because yes,

you could say that is pretty damning, because although the police can't find any physical evidence, they can't really place them there in any other way. All three men independently give very similar stories while they are under sodium pentanol. The issue here is, I would say, that there are pretty intensive pre and post interviews conducted on people who undergo narco tests. What are they telling them during these pre-interviews? We don't know. If you're planting ideas in people's heads, then pumping them full of something,

a substance like sodium penthanol, and then interviewing them. And then saying, oh, look, they said it. I don't know. I'm not sold on it. Because like I said, they confess to it while they're under. But then their employers are like, you were here that night. Like, why would their employers lie? Exactly.

I wouldn't believe that an employer would have that level of loyalty to a domestic worker who they think possibly murdered a child. I just don't believe it. So, I don't know. There's some weird stuff. But little things like this were not going to stop the CBI. And an important thing to note here is that in India, to be honest, a lot of policing generally isn't about investigating or finding evidence. It's about getting confessions at any

cost. And it is pretty standard practice to use torture or beatings or coercion to get these confessions. And possibly in this case, also these narco tests. And for a long time, Rajesh refused to consent to this narco test bullshit. He would have had a good lawyer and he also would have been smart. But these men weren't as smart and the CBI manipulated them. And I think that they thought it would be easier to cobble a case together against these men rather than trying to go after the Talvars. And so with that, on the 11th of July 2008, Rajesh, who had been in prison for 50 days at this point, was released. The CBI had their new suspects. And like we said, given the total lack of physical evidence, the only thing they had to hand their hats on was the fact that these three men had given very similar stories. But

later on, you will go on to see that these men, when they are released, said that they were beaten and forced to confess after being injected. So it's not great police work. Soon, another big blow came to the CBI's case against these three men. One of them, during the narco test, had said that they had sent Arushi's phone to Nepal. But a year after the murders, Arushi's phone was found, and it wasn't in Nepal. Suddenly, after being inactive for over a year, her phone turned on, and it was pinging from the area of Sadapur in Noida, just five or six kilometres from the Talwar flat. The CBI found the man who had it and arrested him, but they soon discovered that the man's sister had simply found the phone on a dirt track a few days after Arushi and Hemraj were killed. She had given it to her brother, who a year later had bought a SIM and started using it,

and he had no idea that it belonged to Arushi. They released the man and searched the phone. It had nothing on it, but its discovery in India and not Nepal seriously destroyed the narco confessions. And so the CBI case was forced to close and the men were released in September 2008. But in the final report, the CBI stated that they strongly suspected that the killer had been Rajkumar and that Krishna had assisted him. They just said that they didn't have enough evidence to indict. Following this, no progress was made on this case for over a year, but it still stayed in the headlines. Then, in September 2009, a second CBI team took over the case, and this team pivoted back and went hard once again after the Talvas, and all sorts of weirdness ensued. The new director had a word with the original pathologist, who had carried out the post-mortem went hard once again after the Talvaz. And all sorts of weirdness ensued.

The new director had a word with the original pathologist who had carried out the post-mortem on Arushi all those years ago. And this is just where it gets even more unbelievable. This pathologist now came forward and completely changed his findings. He had originally said that there was nothing abnormal about Arushi's genitals. He now said that on external examination, the vaginal opening was, quote, prominently wide open and the cervix was clearly visible. He also said that the hymen was ruptured and healed,

indicating an older incident. And he also said that the genitals looked like they had been washed post-mortem. This doctor said when questioned about this new report that he came up with, that he had actually noticed all of this at the time. just hadn't included it in his report why i of course i know that the hymen is real but whenever i see it like i just think there's so much fucking myth surrounding it that like i just don't believe a fucking word of it there are so many things you can rupture your hymen by fucking falling down the stairs it It's not evidence of absolutely anything. You'd be born without one. It's bullshit. Exactly. Like, I just don't believe that her vagina was prominently open. It just wasn't.

Oh, fuck off. It's such a load of bullshit. And I hate how the hymen is used like some sort of fucking safety seal on a woman. Like she's a packet of paracetamol, you know? Like, shut the fuck up. Oh my god. It doesn't stop there. The pathologist who carried out the autopsy on Hemraj now came forward and said that a kukri could not have been the weapon used to cut his throat because it was too blunt. It would have had to have been something like a surgical scalpel. How convenient when you're now saying that your prime suspect is a dentist. Yes, who can tell fucking blood types by eyesight.

Absolutely. They've just got microscopes built into their dentist eyes. They just install them at dentist school. That's what you're there for. Like a bionic eye. That's what you're paying for. That's what your student loans pay for. This second CBI team go the whole hog now

onto the honour-killing theory, going back right back round to the original Uttar Pradesh police theory. And they managed at this point to force the Talvars into their range of wild and wonderful tests. The first set came back inconclusive and the second set came back with no deception. But it didn't matter. They were going to nail them. The CBI team interviewed the one I can't say. How do you say it? Bharati. Bharati. I've forgotten about her. The maid who, all the way back from the beginning. So the maid who had found herself locked out the morning that Arushi was discovered.

And she claimed that the gate had been locked from the inside. And so therefore that's proof that someone else had come or gone from the flat. Therefore, it had to have been an inside job. And the only people inside and alive were the Talvars. The Talvars demanded that DNA testing be done onto the glasses found in Hemraj's room, but these requests were denied and they were accused of just trying to waste police time.

Baffling. It is baffling. It's baffling. And I feel like they go get Bharati. They've already managed to convince two fucking pathologists to change their results and findings. How hard is it to get a maid to change her remembering of whether the gate was locked from the outside or the inside and i also think to some extent barda probably got sick of people being like you stupid woman it was just unlocked and she's saying no it was locked from the inside that's why i couldn't tell and

somebody came and unlocked it when i went to get the keys and that's why i'm not dumb so i don't know this is all just fucking non this is non-evidence. But like this, the second CBI team tried their very best to go after the Talvars. But after a year of trying, they stated in their closure report that their key suspect was indeed Rajesh Talvar, but they recommended just closing the case as there just wasn't sufficient evidence. However, the court rejected this request and went ahead with the trial, which started in June 2012. And it lasted for a year and a half. And finally, on the 25th of November 2013, Rajesh and Nupur Talwar were both found guilty of the two murders,

destruction of evidence, misleading the probe, and filing a wrong FIR. Oh, an FIR, by the way, is like a police report. So like when you call the police and you a wrong FIR. Oh and FIR by the way is like a police report so like when you call the police and you say this thing has happened. Both Nupur and Rajesh were sentenced to life imprisonment. So over the years there have been many many outspoken critics of this decision including prominent politicians, celebrities and organizations. They have all argued that the verdict against the Talvars was reached using nothing evidence. And in 2017, the Talvars challenged their conviction in the Allahabad High Court, pointing out all of the insufficient evidence that had been used against them.

And finally, on the 12th of October 2017, four years after they had been imprisoned, they were acquitted. So they are now free. I think rightfully so. I don't know whether they did it or not, but I don't think that they did it. And if they did do it, the fucking case against them was absolute bullshit. Yeah, there's nothing to it. There's literally no evidence at all. No, they're just like, here's a made up theory that we made up that fits nothing, makes no sense, but we're just going to go with it and have no physical evidence, of course.

So the Talvars haven't gone quietly even after being acquitted. They're still trying to get touch DNA testing to analyze the palm print that was found on the terrace and the fingerprints found on the whiskey bottle and also the DNA from the glasses that were found in Hemraj's room. They have even offered to pay for these tests themselves but the Supreme Court has rejected their appeals and refused to order any further investigation. So I don't think we're ever going to have an answer to what happened in this case because so much evidence was destroyed in those first 24 hours that nothing will ever be able to be backed up by physical evidence that's the problem so yeah that is the very long and confusing case of the murder of arushi and hemraj so like like I said, if you guys want to check out the

book, it's called Arushi and it's by Avaruk Sen. We'll leave the link below. Tell us your theories. We would love to hear them because this is such a wild case. Do you want to hear my theory? Yes, I do want to hear your theory. Okay, so floating aliens. Nailed it. Just like JonBenet. Just like JonBenet and just like Peter Falconio because of the footprints. Floating alien. I don't know my theory because the problem is it's either the parents, it's either these particular men, so Vijay, Rajkumar and Krishna, or it's somebody completely different who was an external person. There was no sign whatsoever of forced entry to the flat. So somebody must have been invited in or the doors were all left unlocked,

which seems really like nonsensical. And like we said it does seem like hemorrhage had people in his room that night we just don't know who they were and there's no physical evidence that still exists to show who it was this wasn't a criminally sophisticated crime this is just one that the police botched so fucking hard they'll never be able to solve it i think the things that make it weird of it being a stranger is the fact of the way arushi was laid out. That's the only thing that doesn't fit for me.

But yeah, so let us know what you guys think. We would love to hear from you. You can follow us on all the social medias at RedHandedThePod. If you would like a little less mind bending, you can come join us in Under the Duvet on patreon.com slash redhanded for all $5 and up patrons immediately after this. And if you would like to become a patron because you're not quite there yet, you haven't been that ready to commit to us yet, maybe today is the day you want to think about going and doing that. And here are some wonderful people who have done so

that we've got to say thank you to. So thank you very much. Georgie, Lisa Potty, Elaine Lepard, Erin Devitt, Rachel Cox, Kat Clausen, Ray Elaine, Jamie Horne, Lucy Morris, Anna Carvanova, Elizabeth Ufer, Vicky Robin, Johnny, Sarah Cameron, Lucy Dorns, Naomi Childress, Philippa K. Tin, Hannah Cooper, Bans Ray Asodia, Laura France, Amy Firm, what, Fajumstrad, Shannon Blomberg. Kristen Puchakowski.

Hannah Prickle. Jen Segrist. Laura Packwood. Johnny. Kasia Parkinson. Bianca McDonald. Connie McCall. Hayley Davis.

Lena Warnberg. Maeve. Gina Gigi. Angela Barr. Alyssa Yao. Maren Bao, Bo... Ashley Martin, Gresham Ellie. You're like, thank God. You did well, though.

Rebecca Bayek, Kirstie, Drew Duhas, Sarah Roberts, Ryan Phelps, Constanza Horntrick, possibly, Eleanor Doyle, Alyssa Beaupre, Molly Fleming, Misty Johnson, Jenna Joyce, Janet, Alexander Bond, Jen C, Remy, Abby Howells, Alana Starvalt, Melina Thaxton, Marcy Raquel Blackwell, Timma Wilson, Daisy, Laura Greenaway, Mackenzie Warner, Paige Schoenheit, Amy Bartle, Charlotte Jackson, Kerry Oulette Sabal Kossinsky Richard Taylor Grace De Arce Tatum Diamond

Heather Alyssa Bales Michelle Em Wilson Jessie Hansen Renee Ketchel Rachel Jackson Claire Keenan

Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel

Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel

Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel

Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel

Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel

Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel Barbara Ketchel or Mackay possibly, Michelle Kidd, Laura, Sarah Reichart, Fiona Scott, Gretchen L Jones, Rebecca Quarry, Terry West, Kim Wiley, Wile, Holly, Noelle King, Britsby Hobnob, Melody Atkinson, Ciara Smith, Shanna Bernstein, Bernstein, Caroline Chin, Sean Herskovitz, Emily Rose, Ram Spatten Kemp, Taylor Munich, Hunter, Clodagh Oxley, April and Sebastian, brackets,

mom and son, mom and son. I just can't say it. I can't say mom. It just feels so wrong in my mouth. Brittany Holmes and Fiona Young, thank you so much for supporting the show. Lots of you are messaging us about how far behind we are on Patreon names. We do not know. No.

Lots. Don't know. So wait your turn. We're trying, guys. We're trying. Yeah, we're trying our absolute best, as I'm sure you are. Everyone's just trying their best most of the time. Lots. Don't know. So wait your turn. We're trying, guys. We're trying. Yeah, we're trying our absolute best, as I'm sure you are. Everyone's just trying their best most of the time. Exactly.

So bop on over to Under the Duvet. And if you don't do that, shame on you. But well, I suppose we'll still see you next week. I'll have forgiven you by then. Absolutely. Goodbye. Bye. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry.

The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame,. Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment, charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution. I was f***ed up. I hit rock bottom. But I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real.

From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is the rise and fall of Diddy. Listen to the rise and fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery Plus. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudian Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On the Media. To listen, subscribe to On the Media wherever you get your podcasts.