RedHanded - Episode 167 - Live from The 2020 London Podcast Festival

Episode Date: October 1, 2020

In this week's episode Hannah and Suruthi story swap the on vaguely train related cases of 'The Brighton Trunk Murders' and the killings of Kieran Kelly - one of the UK's most prolific serial killers... Spooky Bitch MERCH out now! www.redhandedshop.com  Check out the visuals for this episode here! OR follow us on social media: @redhandedthepod on insta, and The RedHanded Podcast Group on Facebook for the accompanying visuals.   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. So, get this. The Ontario Liberals elected Bonnie Crombie as their new leader. Bonnie who? I just sent you her profile. Check out her place in the Hamptons. Huh, fancy. She's a big carbon tax supporter, yeah? Oh yeah. Check out her record as mayor. Oh, get out of here.

She even increased taxes in this economy. Yeah, higher taxes, carbon taxes. She sounds expensive. Bonnie Crombie and the Ontario Liberals. They just don't get it. That'll cost you. A message from the Ontario PC Party. Get ready for Las Vegas-style action at BetMGM,

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BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. 19 plus to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact ConnexOntario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor, free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Hello everyone. Before we kick off with today's episode, just want to make a very quick announcement

about merch. So many of you guys have been asking for it, so because this is October, the start of the spookiest month of the year, right now, as of the 1st of October, you can head on to redhandedshop.com to get yourself some spooky bitch merch. We've got hoodies, we've got t-shirts, also in three weeks time, we're going to be dropping the Not In This Economy merch. We have also got a very special fan-designed bit of merch coming out towards the end of the month as well. So keep your eyes peeled for that.

We're also bringing out sweatshirts because again, you guys asked for it. So yeah, go check it out. Link is in the episode description below. It's redhandedshop.com. The eagle-eyed among you will also have noticed that today's episode is a live show recording. It is the full recording from our show

at the London Podcast Festival last week. And you'll notice that we're referring to visuals during the episode. So if you want to check those out, come follow us on Instagram at redhandedthepod or on Facebook. Just search for the Red Handed podcast group and we'll be uploading those slides and those visuals on there so you can take a look and watch along. Other than that, enjoy today's episode and we will be back with you next week for what is going to be a very jam-packed and terrifying October here at Red Handed.

On with the show. Hello audience. Welcome to Red Handed Live. You don't have to turn your phone off. Just don't be a dick. Please welcome to the stage Hannah Maguire and Saruti Bala. Hi, guys. Do you know what it was? Oh, so many of them. I have so much stuff in my hands that I have it like here. And it just...

So off to a fucking cracking top, Ayla. Oh, I've just spilled so much of that Prosecco directly onto that gentleman's mic real professional operation that we're very sorry i'm sorry guys okay hi hello everyone congratulations for making it outside your house in lockdown to the lockening i know but let's not let's not let's no absolutely not let's all just be each other's, like, support bubble, and then we'll just never leave. Yeah, well, we all have to fuck off quite promptly, don't we, really?

Can't go for a drink afterwards, can't even go and get some chicken nuggets. No. Can't get this open either. Which is our usual ritual whenever we come to King's Place, which is go get chicken nuggets at McDonald's, but not anymore, not maybe ever again, so we'll see. No more nuggets. No more nuggets. I genuinely can't open this. I was trying to give you some time, but not anymore. Not maybe ever again, so we'll see. No more nuggets. I genuinely can't open this.

I was trying to give you some time, but never mind. We also just ate Freddo's backstage, and now my mouth feels really milky, which is why I wanted that water, but it's not happening. So never mind. Let's start. I'm also just doing bad mic technique. Here we go.

Lost a shoe. This is going well. It's been a shoe. This is going well. We thought, yeah, we haven't done a live show since Halloween last year. So this is why it is the way it is. What we decided to do was come up with like a King's Cross themed murders. But that turned out to be much more difficult than we thought. So we've just gone with trains. They're London.

London sort of trains. You've got a bit more trains than me. I think so. Yeah. We're giving it away. Already. We already have because you clicked onto the name of your show. Big surprise of the evening is, of course, this is my one.

I know. Good. I haven't seen mine yet, so it's okay. okay oh so as long as you're fine fantastic probably get on with the bit that we're good at let's do it i mean this is interesting though because it is a story swap which we don't normally do except for halloween except yeah so new format okay so uh my one's kicking off in uh olden times in the georgian era which if you want to fact check me i checked it's 1714 to 1837 um when brighton was a particularly popular place for the rich and famous people who were so rich they could have pet giraffes these are the jokes guys and and some some indian men yeah to serve them things on massive plates

that's exactly it that's what it is but apparently menageries with exotic animals were a big deal in in georgian times that was my there's a bull in the background as well i thought it was a giant lizard why can you see it? No. No? All right, fine. But that wouldn't last very long because the railway happened in the 19th century. Don't know if you've heard about it. Pretty big deal. And that meant that Brighton was opened up to all sorts of people from all sorts of walks of life. And by the 1930s, Brighton became a very popular day trip for Londoners and although Brighton still retained its decadent hotels restaurants and the vibe of the playground of the rich it had grown a seedy underbelly with criminality racketeering extortion sex work and violence quite similar today I would

argue so poor Brighton the whole of the Brighton downloads just dropped everyone's clocked off well done so everyone was going down there for the excitement and the anything that could happen atmosphere and i don't know where this name came from but apparently in the 30s people called brighton the queen of the slaughtering places which doesn't quite fall out of your mouth but you'll remember it uh so we're starting in june 1934 um but before we get to the horrible murder bit that you're all here for let's talk about some other things that happened in june 1934 firstly donald duck made his first appearance on the big screen in the wise little hemp um italy beat czechoslovakia in the World Cup 2-1. Who knew FIFA was that old? Not me, but probably everyone else.

And, obviously, Hitler led the night of the long night purge of the Nazi party. However, there is only one reason why the city of Brighton will remember the particularly hot, sweaty month of June 1934. So we're starting off with a putrid-smelling suitcase, or trunk, as you might have guessed, left in the luggage storage of Brighton Railway Station, discovered by an unfortunate station porter. There you go.

I don't know if it's the actual one... ..or a dramatic re-enactment. I know, I was like, why is the station porter why why is the station suitcase holding in the woods and why is that man definitely not dressed like he's in the 1930s and also yeah no there's there's lots of errors uh but i won't point them all out because that's just being a spoiler sport please carry on thank you for your wavering support on inspection it was discovered that the putrid smell was coming from the rotting torso of a young woman and she was parceled up in cotton wool brown paper and fastened all together with a long length of sash and cord her head her legs and her arms were

all missing so definitely a dramatic reenactment because you can quite clearly see a foot. And it looks very male. So, right. Communication in the 1930s in provincial police departments was pretty poor, so it was

very common practice to call in Scotland Yard and as soon as this trunk was found, that's exactly what the chief constable of Brighton police did and just a couple of hours after the call was made chief inspector Robert Donaldson and detective sergeant Edward Sorrell arrived in Brighton. According to the tag on the trunk it had been left at the station on the 6th of June between 6 and 7 p.m. The problem was that on that particular day, in those particular hours, 90 other bits of luggage has also been put in the same place. And the trunk itself didn't give away too much.

All the police could tell was that it was a pretty common make and it was brand new. But if you've ever tried to carry a human torso, which I would not recommend, but I would imagine it's like a large toddler and they can be like a fucking unit like they're really heavy so this led the police to believe that the suitcase was probably carried by two people but that doesn't really give them that much either because the culprit could have just like got a station porter to help him out which

I feel like that's the thing in the 30s, not necessarily now. No, not now, definitely. Do you remember when? Yes, I know what you're going to say, because I was there. It was very horrible. When we were on our UK tour last year, when we could still, you know, do that kind of thing, Hannah and I decided we would save £100, a whole £100.

£100 smaggeroos. A whole £ hundred sterling by carrying our own mics around and you actually said to me I remember being like I'll just bring that duffel bag you've got we'll stick it in there I was like cool brought it along oh no it's a massive flight case that was like this big I did think it would have wheels no it didn't have wheels we had to carry it everywhere we went. We went Cardiff, Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow, London, carrying it between the two of us. I came home covered in bruises.

We got to... So Birmingham was the first show, and we literally... I could carry it, like, maybe four steps and then have to put it down. And then when we got to Manchester, we went to somewhere called Tool Station, who still send me their catalogue every, like, six weeks. Oh, yes.

And buy, like, a wheelie trolley and, like, one of those, like, cranky strap things and then wheeled it around and then it was all right. But Birmingham was really rough. So, yeah. It was rough. Imagine carrying around a mic rack for... Do you remember the man in Tool Station who asked me if I wanted a hot chocolate? Yes.

I got a hot chocolate. Everyone's so much nicer in Manchester than they are here. They were so nice. Imagine going to a Tool Station in London and someone asking you if you wanted a hot chocolate yes everyone's so much nicer in Manchester it was so nice imagine going to a store station in London and someone asking you if you wanted a hot chocolate like you're gonna kill me as if that would happen no it was a it was an experience that's for sure we got through it we would fucking talk when we came home oh mate I was like all that crap we ate on tour didn't even matter because we carried didn't even carried what was probably two toddlers around for the entirety of it. It was tough. It was tough, though.

Anyway, the torso itself had no identifying marks and there were no fingerprints on the trunk either. The only lead the police could find was some writing on a bit of paper wrapped around the body and it said the word Ford in blue pencil. And the following day, when the trunk was found, very similar events unfolded in London, King's Cross, just down the road from where we are right now.

The station had started to smell incrementally worse and worse, and they were pretty sure that smell was coming from the luggage room. And on the evening of the 18th of June June staff finally discovered the source of the stench. It was coming from a seemingly innocuous brown trunk which had been left there on the 7th of June. Inside carefully wrapped in oil-soaked paper were the legs and feet of a young woman. Once again the police were stumped they had no clues or leads and there was no sign of the woman's head or arms anywhere. Alerts were sent across the country to check all of the luggage rooms, but to no avail. No more body bits in bags anywhere. And while the investigators were shocked by the discoveries, apparently bodies showing up like this in the 1930s was pretty like almost old hat because no one had csi to watch or murder podcasts to listen to to get

tips on like body disposal if you're interested pigs is the best way to do it um so they just stuffed them in cases apparently i mean though you say pigs but they are quite hard as a tool to hide your murders they are quite a hard thing to also maintain like you know what I mean you need more than one yeah but I also watched uh Hannibal so you just have to masquerade as a pig farmer just by a pig farm just the long game yeah no problem but these people didn't know this at this time no no pigs hadn't come into it as yet that high-tech invention that is the pig yeah exactly anyway um the police were stuck again so they called in a chap called bernard spillsbury who is incredibly interesting he's a pathologist from the home office and he'd already made a name for himself as quite the legend he was really

involved in the Crippen case you'll all know all of these cases because you are of course crime scholars his evidence in the Crippen case was completely decisive not divisive which is what I wanted to read that and then he also helped out on the Brides in the Bath murders, which was George Smith in 1915. What a looker. And this is by far the most interesting one. Yeah. Even though it technically happens after what we're talking about.

He was really instrumental in what was called Operation Mincemeat in World War II. Anyone know about that? Oh. Oh, my God. We're learning this evening. I think one person whispered something. Oh, yes.

It was whispering. Yes, all right. She's stealing your line. But do you know what? I have to give marks for this audience having any more historical knowledge than when we did Shoreditch House last Halloween when I said, what was even World War I?

And no one could tell me did anyone actually ever learn that score though i'm still convinced absolutely not but also top marks to that lady you can have 17 points yes pat yourself on the head absolutely and just the confidence to say it well done lady well done so oh no nope that's the brides. Nope. That's the brides in the bath. That's the brides in the bath. Fucking it. There's Operation Mincemeat. There we go. This is Operation Mincemeat.

So what they did is they found a homeless guy in a warehouse in King's Cross, as a matter of fact, in 1943. He poisoned himself with rat poison, and instead of giving him a pauper's burial, he was squirreled away by the Secret Service, I would assume, and they put him on ice in Hackney for three months. And then they dropped him off in Spain to be discovered, and they made him, like, a fictitious Major William something.

William Martin. And they, like, gave him a backstory and put his ID and ticket stubs in his pocket and also a letter handcuffed to his wrist that said, personal and most secret. I think most secret is higher than top secret. think there's like levels of it oh yeah there's levels of but i didn't know most secret most secret yeah that's shit so obviously this is like secretist secret i don't know um though i did look i didn't know what operation mincemeat was before but obviously

when we were like let's do king's's Cross-themed murders for this, I was like, fuck. Because there are lots of murders that have happened around here, but it's just like, oh, someone got fucking bottled. It's not like there's a big story that lasts six pages. So I did actually come across Operation Mincemeat at the time because, like you said, it happened in a warehouse down the road. Do you know what the BBC headline was about that?

What? The tramp that fooled hitler i'm not even lying i was like all right bbc you're asking for it now you're asking to get slagged off on the podcast shh they're everywhere anyway the letter chained to his wrist said that, like, oh, the Allies are definitely going to invade Greece when actually the plan was to invade Sicily. Nazis totally fell for it. See, this is why I didn't pick it, because I was too confused about what was going on. If you want to learn more about it in a completely fictitious way,

there is a film called The Man Who Never Was. So, you know, look at that at your leisure. So, I think we can all agree, if anyone could crack this case wide open it was bernie spillsbury um he examined the young woman's torso and legs and found that she was four to five months pregnant at the time of her death but otherwise she was in very good health um i've written that like it's like yeah being pregnant is a disease. Other than that mild parasitic condition she had. I'm just joking, guys. It's fine.

The condition of her feet and toenails were pristine, which at the time was apparently not too common. And I was thinking about this. You know when you watch period dramas and it's all people in Tudor outfits getting off and it's all really sexy? No one brushes their teeth then. It's fucking disgusting.

I don't know how any babies got conceived. But... it's all relative though isn't it is it i don't know because you were like if everyone you ever met had horrible teeth and a smelly mouth you'd be like yeah i suppose it's just a bit of a hygiene factor here like it was the norm yeah anyway um also he discovered that the body was dismembered several hours after her death. Unfortunately, though, Spilsbury was unable to identify the actual cause of death or who the woman was because she obviously did not have a head. So, the police turned to the public and they were inundated with reports of about 800 missing women. But back then, when did passports happen? What, like 1920-ish?

I even talked about this once. It was like when the plague was. Yeah. When was the plague? The old plague. The other plague. Not the current one. Not the current one.

You know, when it just seemed like a fun documentary you watched on Timeline. Yeah. So you could just, in the 1930s, probably just show up somewhere and say you've got a different name, and that's good enough. Surely. So I think it's unsurprisingprising there were 800 reports of missing women but the police uh whittled it down to about 70 women that they could not properly account for and one of these women was reported missing by her mother who was called annie watts and she said that she hadn't heard from her daughter violet for many many, many months. Many moons. This is Violette. Aww. Bendy lady.

She looks like a strong, independent woman. I like her. I quite like her as well. She's really tall. She does look quite tall, doesn't she? So, she was born in 1891 to a family of nine, and her job was singing and dancing in music halls, but the money wasn't particularly good, so she was known to supplement her income with sex work to get by. She was in a song and dance duo with a man, with a man, and they were called K&K, which seems to make no sense with her name.

But they parted ways in the early 30s, and we think that might have been due to Violet's alcoholism and potential drug abuse, but maybe he was just a dickhead. We don't know, We weren't there. I feel like there's a backstory for all this animosity that the audience doesn't understand. Never mind. Just run with it. Just run with it. So, in 1933, however, things were looking up for Violet. She met a very charming man who was 14 years younger than herself.

Get it. And he went by the name of Tony Mancini. And this is him. Oh. I mean... I think he looks like he's in the 1930s. He does. He does. Is Peaky Blinders set in the 1930s?

Let's just ask you things. I don't know. When was the rise of fascism now what like 40s ish it's around then i like it we have exactly what the conservative movement goes for, an uneducated audience that we can say whatever we like and they don't know what the fuck's going on. It's great. Don't listen to her.

I think you're all very smart. Somebody did say 1940s. I can see, like, one, two, three, four spooky bitch hoodies from here. I know, you guys. Fucking get it, guys. No, they don't know. Doesn't matter. Carry on.

So, Violet got together with this chap in... ..whenever. Whenever I just said, 1933. And they moved to a basement flat together in Brighton, supposedly to escape from the violence of London. So, why they moved to the Queen of the Slaughtering Place is not sure. When they were living in this flat, Tony assumed the role of Violet's pimp, and he would leave the house and

then her clients would come around and then he would come back and she would hand over the money. The police quickly realised that Violet couldn't have been either of the bodies that they found in the trunks in either Brighton or in King's Cross because she was just a bit too old. But with no leads and not much else going on on they decided to have a look into her disappearance anyway and they heard that Tony had been disposing of women's clothes so they decided that he was primed for another look and brought him in for questioning and they immediately noticed that Tony spoke with a working-class Londoner's accent and not the Italian accent that his name would give the impression of. So he knows he's been caught out,

and he reluctantly revealed that his name was not Tony Mancini. It was, in fact, Cecil Lewis England. That's the least Italian name. It's a choice. That's... And he invented. It's a choice. That's... And he invented Tony Mancini because he was trying to get off with a girl who only got off with Italians.

So he was just like, I'm Italian now. I mean... And then it stuck. Who's going to blame her? He's got some other great names as well. During his lifetime, he also went by the name of Tony English. And Hyman Gold. Tony English. And?

Hyman Gold. As in, like a hyman? Good, good. Do you want me to say it again? Hyman. Good. Fine. So the police quickly started to piece together Tony slash Cecil slash Hyman's life. Turns out he was born on the 7th of January 1908 in New Cross. At the age of 18,

he joined the RAF, where he served for two years before he was asked to leave. We don't know why. And then for the rest of his life, he was sort of a low-level criminal, occasionally a fairground boxer. He was in prison for sort of three to six months at a time for petty things like stealing, loitering with intent, etc. In 1932, he moved to the West End, where he got a job in a club on Leicester Square, and it was there that he decided he was going to be Tony Mancini, and also where he met Violette. When the police asked him where he thought Violette was,

he insisted he had absolutely no idea. He said that she'd left him for another man on the 14th of May and she just left him a note saying goodbye and that was the end of that. And when the police asked him where he was on the 6th or 7th of June, which is obviously where the bodies showed up, he said that he was at work all day. But the police aren't having any of it so they decide to have Tony followed. And he goes to work at a place called the Skylark Cafe and then he goes to a dance hall with his friends. And because he was just doing boring shit, the police called off the tale,

which was quite a big mistake. The following day, on the 15th of July, Tony Mancini disappeared. He'd moved out of the flat he lived in with Violet and his new landlord contacted the police to tell them that he had left many of his possessions behind, including a large black trunk, which was smelling pretty bad.

And when officers inspected the property, they were wholly unprepared for the damp, weeks-old, rotting corpse of Violet stuffed into a black trunk and sprinkled with some mothballs. Mothballs? For the smell. Unsuccessful. But he gave it a shot. Yeah. Mr Spilsbury examined the body and decided that Violet had been killed by a severe blow

to the temple, which had dislodged a fragment of skull and in the basement of the house where Tony was now living he they found a hammerhead in some coal so he tried to burn the hammer so obviously the wood was gone but that hammerhead was still there but obviously forensically useless because this is the olden days um so the police also questioned Mancini's friends who had been with the day before uh asking them what they'd seen and they said that they all went back to his flat after the dance hall they'd all been and they all noticed the horrible smell but didn't say anything because they didn't want to be rude a rotting corpse rotting corpse which is like have you ever walked walked past a dead fox? It's such a specific smell. I don't think I've ever smelled

anything dead. It can be arranged. So, apart from... It smells bad, they have a party. They all stay over for some reason, and they all have breakfast in the morning together. These people are so... just chill.

Can you imagine? Well, now I can't be around more than six people. No, not really. No. No. And I live with four other people, so I can have one person in my house. But you've got to take it in turns with everyone else. Yeah, exactly.

So apparently in the morning at 7am, Mancini leaves and he goes to get the train to London, Victoria. And before he leaves, he turns to his friends and he says, oh, I'll be famous soon. Who's this guy? I actually don't know who this guy is, we'll find out. I've forgotten where he shows up. We'll just leave him up there though. Why not? He looks fun. He looks great. He looks like he's having a great time. Excellent. So let's talk motives. Apparently, Violet, apart from the sort of like pimp vibe,

their relationship wasn't great. Surprise. What a shocker. And he was quite the womaniser, quite the quite the ladies man and Violet was reported to be quite jealous and witnesses reported that once Violet came to the Skylark cafe saw Mancini uh flirting with a lady called Florence and quite understandably she got quite annoyed and they had a very public uh shouting match and that was the last time that anyone saw Violet alive. Uh oh. On the 11th of May, Violet's sister received

a poorly written telegram claiming to be from Violet that said gone away, gone abroad, sailing today, will write. Wow. Abrupt. I mean I quite like that about telegraphs though. Yeah, I was going to say, is it like a tweet where you can only have a certain number of...

Yeah, you have to pay, like, by the letter. Oh, I see. Why do we still call them telegraph poles? Do we? Yeah. Oh. What do you call them? Telephone pole?

I don't know. Oh! The wooded ones? Yeah, we'll call it a telephone pole. Oh, man. I'm in the future. Calling it a telegraph pole. I'm in the future.

Anyway, Violet's sister kept this telegram and the handwriting was matched to the handwritten menus at the Skylark cafe where Tony Mancini worked. So he's not particularly bright. And also, he was going around loads of bars drunkenly boasting that he'd beaten his girlfriend from pillar to post with a hammer. That's a quote. So he's not giving himself the easiest time. But the police still only have circumstantial evidence, so they're in trouble.

They need a confession. So they call him in for questioning. During the two days that Tony Mancini had been on the run before the police caught up with him, he'd found the time to hang out with his mates and drink a lot and also seduce a 17-year-old girl. And when the police presented him with the fact that he obviously knew where Violet was because she was in his house um he said that he had she was already dead when he found her and that he was panicked because he had a criminal record so he's like oh the

police will treat me unfairly so I'll just dispose of the body instead and take it with me to my new house. And then leave it there and then flee again. Exactly. So the police knew they weren't going to get a confession, but they were pretty sure they could convince a jury of Mancini's guilt. So he was charged and arrested. And at 10.30am on 11th december 1934 the trial began in brighton a huge crowd gathered outside the court a ballot was even needed to distribute the tickets for the

public gallery it's pretty see the people people love a murder people who are like why is true crime so like hot today mate people are balloting to go to this fucking court trial, people have always been gross. And into murder. I think I know who this man is now. Oh, yes. Well done. His name's Norman Burkett. And he's a barrister, and he was the defence counsel for Tony Mancini.

And, yeah, defence lawyer, that's what it is. So he's got his work cut out for Mancini, please not guilty. And the prosecution's case is essentially the story I just told you. Mancini killed Violet, stuffed her body in first into a cupboard, then into a trunk, then he transported that trunk all the way across Brighton to his new house. And when suspicions were raised about the smell and the liquid seeping from the trunk he ran away but because he was going with the story that Violet was already found already dead when he found her uh all Norm had to do was make Violet look like the worst person in the world which is what they always do um and he suggested that Violet had actually fallen down the stairs then got up went back to bed and then died and then fallen in her trunk and fallen and then folded herself up like an envelope

and just fallen apart yeah exactly makes sense but Norm did a pretty good job because the only solid evidence that the police had was that Mancini concealed the body. So sorry guys but he totally got away with it. What? Yeah he was found he was acquitted and released immediately and they had to sneak him out the back of the court for his own safety so it wasn't even like nothing nothing happened And we're never going to find out who the other women in their trunks were. We know they're not Violette, but don't know who they are. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to light some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history.

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Today, I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment, charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution. I was f***ed up. I hit rock bottom, but I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real. From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is the rise and fall of Diddy. Listen to the rise and fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery Plus. But in 1976, when Tony Mancini or Cecil, maybe we can call him Cecil now. It would upset him, which is why I wanted to do this.

Let's call him Cecil. He gave an interview to News of the World, of all places, saying that he did actually murder Violet. They were having an argument and he threw a hammer at her head. What a shocker. Yeah. And then he decided to hide the body, but obviously you can't be tried again for something that you've already been tried for. So he got away with it, lived to a ripe old age,

and Violet didn't get any justice, and neither did the other women, whoever they were, in the suitcase. Oh. That's my story. Oh, that's so sad. OK, well, thank you. There we go, that's my story. Oh, that's so sad. OK, well... Thank you. OK, that's them again. OK, I'm, like, scared to press the button now.

No, I think you're fine. There you go. Now, give it to me. I can't be trusted anymore. Just click through all my slides. Hello. So, you took us to the georgian era i'm not taking us that far back i'm i'm like time jumping quite a lot all over the place so i'm

gonna have to like pay a lot of attention and keep up because i haven't made this easy on myself on you or on any of them and i was also quite confused when that case was going on not because of your storytelling but because of why I kept looking down at my script to see where you were this is really like rare for us that we're not working off the same script so I feel a little bit feeling a little bit intense about it but it's going to be fine so today I have got for you guys one of the UK's most prolific serial killers okay that you've probably never heard about and before I get like reading a copy buzzfeed clickbait list on you uh but don't worry I'm not just going to be like and here's Jeffrey Dahmer uh it's okay that's not what's happening it's an actual one that I think most of you won't have listened to because this one is bad. This killer is probably

responsible for at least probably 15 brutal murders across London spanning about 30 years. Okay. It's pretty bad, right? That's like Fred and Rose West. It's heavy hitting, that's for sure. He's a heavy hitter, that's for sure. The problem with this case is that there is very little information out there on him and the case is also blighted by a lot of confusion. So much so in fact that this man whose name is Kieran Kelly when I first started googling around about this case it kept asking me do you mean Kieran Kelly and I was like maybe I do I don't Kiernan Kelly, if you're wondering, is the notable writer of historical, paranormal, and science fiction romance novels like Yuletide, Candy Cane. I'm not even lying. This is a real book that you can buy for $3.99 on Amazon.

There is also a Kindle version. That's a real book. Yuletide, candy cane. Do you know what's happened here? All of his book, what I looked at when I looked into Kian and Kelly, who isn't the man we're talking about, but let's talk about him. All of his books are just puns about BDSM and different holidays right so what's happened here is he's thought of two Yuletide and Candy Cane yeah but he didn't have enough material to write two books about BDSM elves at Christmas because that's what this book's about so we just

put them both on the same title the Candy Cane isn't a fucking strap line for a book I'm elves at Christmas, because that's what this book's about. So we just put them both on the same title. The candy cane isn't a fucking strapline for a book. I'm never going to be able to unsee this. Do you see it? That's a real book. Did you read... What happened? Oh, I did actually look at the synopsis. Did you read it? You know, before we get into it...

Tell this story, but I don't care about the murder anymore. I want to know about this, like, elfish-looking individual. Basically, I did read the synopsis, and it warned me that spoilers were ahead, but I went ahead and read it. I don't want to bore everybody, but essentially what it is is that Santa's elves are working very hard, and they're just... Are they?

They're burning out. And they just need a little bit of BDSM. Genuinely, I'm not even... I'm not shitting you, this is a real book. Like, link in the episode description, guys. I don't know, fuck it up. Anyway, so, this is what I kept seeing for a while. This isn't what we're talking about, don't worry about it.

Has he got Instagram? Kian and Kelly? I don't think so. Look at that font. There's one, two, three three four different fonts on that on anyway look this is who we're talking about okay right so this man his man is kieran patrick kelly the importance again of serial killers having a middle name so you don't confuse them with kieran kelly who had nothing to do with anything apart from just writing harmless romance books anyway so Kieran Kelly um his killings actually for being such a prolific serial killer didn't actually come to be like really public knowledge until 2015 okay I know

I'm saying that like I should have told you already when he did these killings. They happened a while back. And for any of you sort of smuggos sat in the audience and listening at home and watching at home, who are like, I know this case. You probably know this case due to the excellent work of journalist, podcast maker and documentary maker extraordinaire Robert Mulhern, who is just fantastic. He does some amazing investigative work on Keir and Kelly. His information that he dug up is really the only information that's out there. If you haven't listened to the six-part series out there called

The Nobody Zone, which is a fantastic podcast, I would definitely go recommend listening to it because it's basically where all of this information today comes from um because he's just done an amazing job and no one has talked to him so a lot of kieran kelly's life is pretty much a mystery and what little we do know comes really mainly from one sole surviving interview tape that he gave in 1983 where he confessed to these 15 murders and we'll get to that tape later but I just wanted to tell you guys about it but you know put a pin in it for now and we'll come back to it. For now we're gonna start with Kieran's parents. I wish I could show you pictures of them there just aren't any I couldn't even find his mum's name. His dad's called Martin but I took it out the script because I was like Martin and his wife wife met each other and got married in Dublin in 1924.

And then after that, they decided to move to the sleepy little town of Rathdowney in Ireland. And this town was home at the time to just a few hundred people. So it's pretty small, like there's not much going on. And Kieran was born in this town on the 16th of March, 1930. And he had two siblings, a little sister and also a brother. And again, remember these guys, remember the siblings, because we're going to come back to them, but not until the last page. So you're going to have to hold on to that. And unfortunately for the Kelly family, they didn't have a lot of money. Martin worked as a labourer. His wife, whose name I don't know, and I tried really hard to find out, was a housewife.

They struggled a lot. So, you know, life was tough. So as soon as Kieran could, which was at the age of 18 in 1949, he left home. And like many young men at the time, he went and enlisted in the British Army, the Irish Guards Regiment to be specific. But his army career didn't last very long because pretty much as soon as he joined he went walkabout for about a year and then when he came back they kicked him out. So that was the end of that. But 23 year old Kelly wasn't going to let that keep him down because he grabbed his best mate, a guy named Christy Smith, and along with Christy's girlfriend and her mate they headed to

london because it was 1953 at the time and heading to london was the thing to do queen elizabeth ii was about to get crowned and uh you know it's going to be all parties all the time in london and uh party they did was she only coronated in the 50s? 1953, apparently. Shit. According to my research. According to my googling about. And yeah, they go there. It is, you know, it's all kicking off in London. It's the place to be. So they go,

they're partying, they're having a good time. Have you seen those buses? Like the double-decker bus with the advertising on the side that said London Calling. You're already in London. It just says. Yeah, it's like an Amazon Music something, advertising, whatever. And they're on the side of the bus and it just says London Calling.

Well, I'm here. So it's an advert to come to London. Yeah, but on a London, fucking bullshit. Sack them. Maybe it's that like, you know how you have like auto renewal now and everything. So this person's here, but we're going to make you book your next trip to London while you're here, and you're going to have no choice about it. You're already here, but now you have to pay double rent.

Precisely. And never leave your house. Business. So, while they're here in 1953, they party hard. But it wasn't all fun and games. Because one evening, Kelly and his best mate Christy were walking along the platform at Stockwell Station. And according to Kelly, in his later confession, his mate, Christy, said something to him that pissed him off. And it pissed him off enough that Kelly swiftly pushed his best friend in front of the oncoming tube train.

Tube station? Tube train. I ruined that. Should we try again? He pushed his best mate, Christy, in front of the oncoming tube train. Why? Because he said something to him that he didn't like. Oh. I know.

And this is just the start, guys. So 30 years later in his 1983 interview where the confession tape comes from, Kelly would say, almost with like a sense of nostalgia, quote, ah, that's the one that started it all. I don't like it. I know. I know. And he's not wrong. Because up until then, Kelly had only really been involved with sort of petty crimes, petty theft. He'd never really been involved with anything really heavy or serious. But this murder does seem to have been the one that set Kelly off on the road to becoming one of the UK's most prolific serial killers.

This is a photo you're going to see a lot today because I don't have any other pictures of him. So we're just going to keep coming back to it. So after Christy's murder, Kelly returned to Ireland alone that same year and nothing much seems to have happened. And I'm surprised by this. Nobody really looked for Christie. Nobody even reported him missing. But he had a family in Ireland. But, like, nobody seems to have done anything.

And I did think this was weird. But apparently, at the time, it wasn't that uncommon for people, especially, like, quite poor men, to go to London or go to America and just vanish and never like see their families ever again yeah I think so like in just like what I was saying in my one like you can just show up and change your name and also we've been looking into H.H. Holmes recently for a thing that we're not allowed to talk about um and apparently there was like the world's fair when he did all of his killings and people would just be like i'm going to chicago for a bit see ya and then just never came back and everyone was like oh well this is just what it's like in pasto times precisely so kelly didn't know it at the time but he in many ways had killed the perfect victim somebody nobody thought to look for and this would

become a theme in his career which presumably is what allowed him to kill for. And this would become a theme in his career, which presumably is what allowed him to kill for 30 years without getting caught. So after returning to Ireland, Kelly's life began to spiral. He started stealing and getting caught regularly. And his father, Martin, I thought quite interestingly, refused to pay for any of the bail. He would never help his son get out of prison. And he insisted to the police whenever they would come knocking and say, we've arrested your son again, he needs to be medically examined right so his dad's not on his side he's like you know they want to know a good martin fact oh yeah who's martin excellent question my sister works with someone called martin and when it was his turn to do like the quiz he just

did a round on himself like how many times did I pass my take my driving test or like how many oranges do I have in my house and he called it so you think you can Martin and then there was a second round called Martin mind I like Martin I also did he do it ironically or is this kind of like I've never met him so don't know, but I really hope that it was completely deadpan. I enjoy that fact. Thank you for sharing that with me. You're welcome. Sorry for throwing you off track. I just don't know how to follow that up now, even with these horrible set of murders. So after, you know, his life is firing and comes back to Ireland, and he's just in and out of prison for the next few years. And finally, in 1960, a 30-year-old Kelly decided that Ireland had given him everything it could. It was time to head back to the big smoke. So he

came back to London, and this time it was for good. Now, the interesting thing about Kieran Kelly is that if you had met him in 1961, you wouldn't believe anything that I'm about to tell you in the rest of this story, because it seems that Kelly really turned his life around at this point. He got himself together, he became like quite a model citizen, he even found a woman, a young Irish mother of five who lived in Camberwell and even he got married to her, had two more kids, even got a job, supported his wife, had all seven of these kids and even avoided any kind of trouble with the law. But alas, his dream of the picture-perfect domestic life was short-lived. Because in 1964, just four years after they had married, it completely deteriorated.

And Kelly found himself at the bottom of a bottle once again, leading to numerous convictions for theft and drunkenness throughout the rest of the 60s. And in 1969, he really, you know, stepped things up. He's like, enough of this, just fucking about and being drunk. He broke into a woman's house with a knife, tied her up and robbed her. That landed Kelly in Broadmoor. Oh. Yes.

And if you don't know what Broadmoor is, obviously you guys do, but anybody watching the live stream, it is the UK's highest maximum security psychiatric hospital. Yeah. It's a hospital for the criminally insane. Yes. It's intense. It's a lot.

And Kelly spent the next two years in Broadmoor. But he was eventually released, and it wasn't long after this that Kelly met a man named Brian Sliman. But he was eventually released, and it wasn't long after this that Kelly met a man named Brian Sliman. So Brian was a builder and a kind man who believed that everybody deserved a second chance as long as they worked hard enough for it. So Brian put Kelly to work, and one day he was rather surprised to see Kelly gave him a big job to do. You know, fill the skip, there's loads of like demolition going on in this house. And he saw that Kelly did in one day what would have taken men three days to do. So with that, he hired him. Kelly's just very like

highly strong. He's quite an intense man. So he's able to just like power through. Just get shit done. Getting shit in the skip. He's all over it. So after this, he earned himself quite regular work with Brian. So Brian describes Kelly as a real Jekyll and Hyde character, saying that he could be, when he was sober, the most nice, most charming man you could ever hope to meet. But after a few drinks, quote, he would go black in the eyes and become a monster. So Kelly went on to work for Brian for four years and during this

time Brian said that Kelly would sometimes go missing for weeks, sometimes even months at a time, then turn back up as if nothing had happened and ask for work. Brian's pretty flexible as a boss so just allows this and he just assumed that Kelly had maybe been on a bit of a bender. However, the truth was, of course, far more sinister. Kelly was out murdering people. And he would later confess that during these four years that he worked for Brian Sliman, that he had murdered four men.

That's quite a lot. And, I don't know, I guess that would explain the absences, and I did think while I was writing that, I was like, having a side hustle is quite hard. So if you are doing them, but then And I did think while I was writing that, I was like, having a side hustle is quite hard. So if you are doing them... But then, you know, when I was still working in events and doing this, I didn't disappear for months, you know.

So, like, he could have worked harder, I felt like, but it is hard. We're really not hitting those fucking quotas, eh? No, come on, just sleep less, drink more coffee, it's fine. But anyway, this is what he does. And one of the men that Kelly would later confess to having killed during this time period was a man named Hector Fisher in 1975. Again, I wish I could show you a picture of Hector. I can't find it. I don't think it exists.

So Hector was a man who was going through quite a bad time during this period. He was living rough on the streets of London when Kelly came across him and Kelly claimed in his 1983 confession that he had met Hector in Clapham Common and he'd hit him on the head and according to Kelly cut off his bollocks in what order he he says it in that order so smacked him on the head and then cut off his bollocks fine so he didn't cut off the bollocks and then smack him in the head with those? No. Okay.

No, no. Good question, though. We have to be thorough. But being thorough will lead us to the fact that when they looked at Hector's death certificate, his bollocks were completely intact. So Kelly is lying. Sorry. Is there like a bollock bit on a death certificate?

They're like genitals. Totally there. Genitals. Fine. Fine. No problems with those. No. He had just died of stab wounds. Just. Just died of stab wounds to the neck and the head. But his genitals were left completely intact. Fantastic. So there is a lot of this in this particular case where Kelly kind of confesses to murders. And they would be murders that the police knew had happened because that person was dead and they had been murdered and it was an unsolved murder but the problem is like Kelly would get details wrong like this so you

know if he confesses to a murder to you and he says that he cut his bollocks off but his genitals are fine you're going to suspect whether Kelly really did this or whether he's just a bit of a confessing Tom but in this case Kelly did know things that someone only someone who had been there would know like for example that Hector Fisher had 40 pounds in his pocket Kelly said that I left that money there so people wouldn't think it was a robbery I don't know I feel like 40 pounds is a lot of money now let alone like in 1975 yeah that's a load of money now, let alone like in 1975. Yeah. That's a load of money. He doesn't take it. So it just kind of adds to that feeling of how senseless a killing Hector Fisher's killing is. It's just completely pointless. He doesn't even rob him.

And this is very typical of Kelly. What he does, most of his killings are sort of rage killings, and he usually does them when he's drunk. Another thing that's typical of Kelly was hanging around the crime scene afterwards because he really just doesn't give a fuck and he told police in his eventual 1983 confession that he had been actually stopped twice on Clapham Common the day after Hector Fisher's murder. And the first time, he was still covered in Hector's blood. And the police were just like, ooh. They just don't want to deal with him. Saturday night in Clapham, really. Because...

Inferno's fun. Oh, God. Stickiest floor in London. It's all the blood from all of the murdered people. It's rolling around, dancing to fucking ABBA. So you've just been to Infernus then to carry on, carry on. No, basically the problem with, um, with Kelly is that he was a homeless man at the time. And I think the police were just like, not that interested in talking

to him or engaging with him, even as a potential murder suspect. So they just like let him go and they don't ever follow up. But we're all going to wish that he had, or they had, because Kelly absolutely goes off on one next. Brian Sliman, his boss, recalls, after this, an incident happened where Kelly was staying with a woman and her daughter. And this daughter made a disparaging comment towards Kelly. He doesn't like those.

He doesn't like that at all. Historically speaking. He's not going to, it's not going to go down well. So Kelly's like a seether. He like really holds it in. He like bears a grudge. He's a grudge bearer. He lets it fester.

And after he was done festering, weeks later, Kelly got himself into a drunken stupor and he forced a random man that he found with a van to drive him all the way to Reading to this daughter's house he broke a window smashed his way in and then uh started strangling her with an electrical cord he's not fucking about men with van he's men with van it's pretty bad thank you thankfully the police arrived in time to stop kelly actually murdering this woman but you know it shows like how much he is just like willing to take massive risks like this

and uh he doesn't go quietly because uh whilst he was in the police van he kicked out both of the rear windows men with then coming back with windows he kicked out both of the rear windows and during the trial uh he actually jumped over the dock and ripped off the judge's cape that's true that must be like illegal in itself like i don't think you're allowed to like fuck with their like weeks and stuff no norman beckett norman would not be having that you won't fucking have it an extra 25 years so he rips this guy this guy the judge's cape off just a random guyaring a cape. And then when they're taking him off to the cells after he's done that,

he broke the sergeant's arm. So he is like, like I said, he's on one. So after this, he was sent back to Broadmoor. And unbelievably, I thought, he was released just a few weeks later. He broke into a woman's house and tried to strangle her with a piece of electrical cord. I thought, like, if you're getting sent to Broadmoor, that's like minimum five years. Well, this is the thing. You remember what Brian Sliman said about his whole Jekyll and Hyde personality?

How he can be super charming one minute, and then as soon as he's had a drink, he decides he's a real monster. This is proof of that. This is kind of like absolutely the embodiment of how much Kelly is able to manipulate people and play that kind of Jekyll and Hyde character. And he managed to convince the psychiatrists, psychiatrists in Broadmoor Hospital, that he wasn't a danger.

That's why they released him. And once he was out, by 1977, Kelly had lost his job with Brian Sliman, presumably because Brian knew about the whole, like him trying to strangle this woman with the electrical cord. And his life descended quite badly. And yeah, he's just like fully on the strangle this woman with the electrical cord and his life descended uh quite badly and uh yeah he's just like fully on the streets at this point because he hasn't even got

a job every time you say slimy i think of roz in monster zing where she's like i'm watching i even had a picture of brian i should have put that up. Sorry. And that year that he was released, Kelly would take his next victim. But before we get to that, you're going to really like this. You're all going to really like this because I loved it. There is a wild twist as to how this story even came to be. Are you ready? So you remember Rob Mulhern, the journalist extraordinaire at the start of the show who's done the Nobody's Own podcast? Yes, I was listening. So he's the guy who did all of the research into this case. Other than him, there isn't anything out there. So he had been investigating Kieran Kelly for months. And while he was able to find the sort

of basic facts, he was able to find his sort of basic facts, he was able to find his sort of criminal record, his stays in like prison and hospital, et cetera. He really wanted to find someone who had actually known the man because it wasn't that long ago. Like, you know, there would still be like old people around who had known Kelly. And that was what he wanted, someone who could put like some color to this character. And he was really close to giving up. He was just like, this guy had multiple aliases. Nobody really knew him. He was a complete drifter, drifter killer. Like I'm never going to find anybody who knew him. So at this point that he's close to giving up, something very odd

happened. As you can guess by my tone, he and his wife needed some building work done on their house. So they hired a builder from South London. And after this builder completed the work, they were so ecstatic with the work that he had done that they were like, you know what? Let's take him out to dinner. Which I'm just like, someone just gasped. I know, like, of all of the things.

Oh, my God. Someone needs a builder recommendation. A restaurant. The horror. So they take him out to dinner. And, you know, they're having some drinks. They're at the pub. They're all chatting about their lives and their whatever stories.

And while they're swapping stories, this builder brings up a man named Ken Kelly. And Rob's like... Did he he write bdsm and it was the future author of candy cane no so he's bringing up ken kelly uh-huh and rob mulhern's like ken kelly and he's like yeah mad ken big mad ken and he's like, wait a minute. It was fucking Kieran Kelly and it was fucking Brian Slyman was his detective, his builder. Fuck. Rob Mulhern accidentally hired Brian Slyman as his builder. Oh, my God.

Isn't that crazy? Can you... You probably all know this, but Cerise is renovating a house at the moment. I am. I need... Can you get like you know when you have to go and work for mi6 and like every member of your family has to be interviewed for like seven years um do that with all of your builders and choose them based on how

many serial killers they've come into contact with how many previous serial killers have worked for them exactly that's it that's how it's going to happen sorry chris the guy i've already hired sorry the guy that's incredibly good at his job and qualified. But no, I thought that was completely wild. Because like, here is Rob just renovating his house, hires this builder, it's fucking Brian Sliman. And he's like, yeah, fucking old mad Ken worked for me for four years. That blew my mind.

So he was like absolutely the missing piece that helped Rob finish his story and get the podcast to where it is and allow me to sit on stage and even talk about this remotely. But back to the case. So it's the 31st of May 1977 now and Kelly was walking to his favourite sleeping spot, a gravestone in a South London churchyard. And to his fury that night he spotted that another homeless man was already sat in his favourite spot. This young man was a man named Edward Toll. And a drunk Kelly predictably absolutely fucking lost it. And he used the rope that was tied around his waist to strangle Toll to death. Just because he was sat in his favourite spot.

And as he was walking away, two other homeless men who were in this churchyard who had seen exactly what Kelly had done shouted at him, hey, you might have killed him. Kelly responded, excuse me, that was my character, to which Kelly responded

by going back to an already unconscious Toll and pulling the rope even tight around his neck and yelling back, I have now. Yikes. He's a bad egg. He's a bad egg, that's for sure. So interestingly, Kelly did actually stand trial for this particular murder. So for Edward Toll's murder, because like people have fucking seen him do it but somehow during the time between when he was arrested and when he had to stand trial Kelly managed to get himself sober he completely avoided the booze and he cleaned himself up and when he went and stood trial he presented himself as a very clean cut intelligent sensible reasonable man and the two other sole witnesses from the churchyard that night were the two homeless men who had seen him.

So when compared to them, the jury deemed Kelly to be far more credible. Did juries only get good, like, five years ago? Are they good? Are they good, full stop? Can we? Because I, honestly,

when I was getting ready for this, I don't know, I just can't stop. I watched, like, a mini-document was getting ready for this I don't know I just can't stop I watched like a mini documentary about Casey Anthony I don't know why that jury found her not guilty well we can't have juries at the moment can we no maybe they'll never return maybe they'll never return I don't know also guessed by my reaction about Casey Anthony maybe there's some mixed feelings in here I don't know I expected people to be like, yeah, she did it. No? Okay. Scream for Casey Anthony. She didn't do it, though, right?

Am I not allowed to say that? I don't know. Let's cut this out. Beep. But anyway. You've all been sworn to secrecy by the beep. So even though Kelly got away with this, he was released. He pulls it off.

He's still absolutely livid. Because if there's one thing we know about Kelly, he loves revenge. So after he gets out, he doesn't just like fucking shut the fuck up and lay low and just like be grateful that he got away with this murder. Oh no. He goes and finds one of the two homeless men who had testified against him in court. This guy's name was Mickey Dunn and Kelly was going to have his revenge so he put together a lethal cocktail of something called dextrine headache pills he had stolen from a chemist white spirit and orange juice and then made mickey dunn drink it didn't like force him he just gave it to him mickey dunn just and he was like delicious orange juice he mickey dunn's like yeah he's he's got some alcohol abuse problems so he's

like delicious and he and he drinks it unfortunately and kelly said that his intention was to quote kill him slowly and kelly claimed to have drunk with dunn again a couple of days after this and listened as dunn complained of a swollen stomach and pains. He had absolutely no idea that he had been poisoned. Mickey Dunn died on the 28th of August 1982, but it is hard to know, while some people do want to sort of say it was because of Kelly, it's really hard to know if it was down to sort of Kelly's cocktail, or if it was just down to Dunn having a very difficult life on the streets and for the alcohol abuse and drug abuse that he was known for but whether Kelly killed Dunn or not is kind

of irrelevant what is more important is what we're seeing here with Kelly we're seeing now that kind of evolution from just like the rage killings to quite a planned premeditated yeah he's switching up his methods which is very rare especially when he does it all does it all he does it all which is very rare you're right 800 dynamite does it all does it all men with men so skipping forward a year uh we're now in the 3rd of august 1983 and kelly and a mate of his called Paul McManus found themselves desperate for a drink, but with empty pockets. And that's when they spotted an unsuspecting pensioner named Walter Bell. Walter was walking along Clapham Common when he was set upon by Kelly and McManus. They took his watch and his wedding ring, but he didn't have any cash on them, so they

ran off. And as they ran off down Clapham High Street they thought they'd got away with it but Bell called the police and they were both arrested and taken to Clapham Police Station and it was common practice at the time for the police at Clapham Police Station to just put all of the homeless people that they arrested into one cell together because it was like they just didn't even really care why that person was there it didn't really matter what the charges were. They just put them all together in one cell. And so Kelly and McManus were put together in one room with another man named William Boyd. Now, Superintendent Ian Brown of Clapham Police,

who would, interestingly enough, go on to become the lead investigator on the Kieran Kelly case, just so happened to be on duty that day. And as he was about to finish his shift at 5 p.m he suddenly heard screaming coming from the cells so he ran back in and he found William Boyd the man who's also in the cell on the floor of the cell with a pair of socks wrapped around his neck McManus was banging on the cell door, screaming to be let out, and a very calm Kieran Kelly was sat in the corner, cross-legged, with no socks on. Yeah. So Kelly was taken to an interview room where he admitted that he had, in fact, stamped on William Boyd's head and then

proceeded to strangle him to death with the socks. And he said that this was because William Boyd was asleep and he couldn't stand his snoring. Yep. Snoring is really annoying though. It is. I think everyone's had thoughts of murder when you can't get to sleep.

Yes, yes. So he acts on it. So he's like specifically at me. You only do it when you're very drunk which is a saving grace but on tour that is most of the time so uh basically the police have him for at this point for murder they know he's killed boyd they've got him back to rights so kelly was put back in his cell and they were planning to interview him the following morning and present for this interview the next day were Ian Brown and also his then superior officer

detective chief inspector Ray Adams so this is quite weird this again shows his kind of erratic nature when he walked in that morning bearing in mind he knows that he's killed this other man and he's going to be interviewed etc apparently he came in like a live wire. He was dancing and pretending to box as he came in. And he was shouting at the police, I fooled you, I fooled you. They're confused until he sticks out his tongue. And on the end of his tongue is the gold ring

that he stole from William Bell, the pensioner, the night before. Oh, my God. I know. He's... How long had it been in there? I don't know. Who knows? Who knows where it had been? But, yeah, it was on his time at this point. Please tell me the specific information that nobody knows. It definitely can't be found anywhere.

Let's not get into that. We have cut this down to six pages. So, yeah, he's enjoying himself. That's the point. He's having a lot of fun, you know. He's very point. He's having a lot of fun. He's very energetic. He's not worried at all by what's happened. He's clearly not particularly interested in covering up for any of the murders he knows he's committed or about the one that he committed in the police station the night before. So before they interviewed Kelly, Brown and Adams had actually done their homework and they had managed to get their hands on quite

a bit of information about Kelly's past criminal history including his acquittal for the murder of Edward Toll. Now you might be thinking like that that's basically what they should have done yes I agree with you but we do have to remember that it is 1983 and everything is on paper everything is in different places if they want to get any information they're going to have to make calls to various police stations it's not automated It's going to be a difficult task. But they had done it. And given what they had, they suspected that there was maybe more to this guy that they had than they had first thought. So Ian Brown, the investigator, casually asked Kelly at the start of the interview, so tell me about the murders, Kelly.

To which Kelly responded, which one? I know. And then he went into full-on storytelling mode, sitting back in his chair and admitting, quote, it all started with Christy in 1953. He's quite Ed Kemper-y. The year of the coronation. Oh, shit. Yeah. He is. He's like Ed Kemper-y. The year of the coronation. Oh, shit. Yeah.

He is. He's like, he's very theatrical. He is very Ed Kemper-y, you're right. He loves, he's like, you know,

I've done my bit. I've had my fun. Now I'm going to have my fun in a different way. And I think he's resigned himself to that. So over the course of the next two weeks,

Kelly happily confessed to 15 murders that spanned like I said at the start over 30 years and also like I mentioned at the start only one interview tape has survived but on that tape you can hear Kieran Kelly confessing to 15 murders the problem is that the dates the times the names they're all super hazy. Like, it's a mess. And as Kelly put it, his mind was mithered by alcohol. I don't know. It's like an old and timey thing, I think. No, my mum tells me off for mithering her.

Is it like bother? Yeah. Oh, so his mind was... Yeah, she's like, stop mithering me. His mind was bothered by alcohol. Okay, cool. And we can't go into all 15 of the murders that he committed because, like I said, a lot of it is just a mess anyway,

but here are some that he confessed to. He said that he had beat a man named Scotch Jack to death with an iron bar. And I know this is really sad because, like, all these people have been murdered, but they did have fun nicknames back then. And he also said that he had held a man's mouth open and poured whiskey down it until he choked to death. It's quite an expensive crime. Yeah, like...

Like, what? Why? You didn't know? I don't know. Walter would have done the same thing. Precisely. And that's free. That's business. So, he also admitted to pushing a man in front of the tube at Kennington Station,

and he also said that he had pushed another man in front of the tube, possibly at King's Cross, but he wasn't sure. And that is the most King's Cross action you get in my entire episode. And he also said, and this is probably the most horrific one, but possibly the most fun nickname.

Okay. He said that he had burned a man named Soapy Joe to death in a skip. He sounds clean. So clean. How ironic that he ended up in a giant bin oh you're right he's such a clean man so he missed it and on and on kelly went with all of his confessions talking about murders that he'd committed all over london it took brown two weeks to make sense of all this

um and he soon realized that he was sat opposite, probably one of the most prolific serial killers in British or Irish history. The problem was, though, that because of the span of the time that these murders occurred that Kelly was confessing to, and the confused accounts, and the lack of CCTV, and the lack of evidence, and the lack of even bodies in some cases. There just wasn't that much they could do with it. Investigators knew they weren't going to be able to get him on all of these murders. However, Detective Ian Brown was adamant that he absolutely to this day believes that Kelly is telling the truth, that he did kill 15 people.

He said that when he was sat opposite him and Kelly was telling him this, he felt like it was cathartic for him, for Kelly, not for him. And that's why he felt like it was true, like it rung true. And finally, in 1984, Kelly was convicted of just two counts of murder because that's all they could prove. So one was the murder of Hector Fisher in Clapham Common and the other was the murder of William Boyd, who was the man that he had killed in the cells at Clapham Police Station. Kieran Kelly died in 2001 in Franklin Prison in Durham at the age of 71. And it's unbelievable to me, really, that we didn't really know about this case until 2015. This story was barely spoken about, even in 1984 1984 so the year that he was convicted of these two murders after confessing to 15 the story got just two small columns in the evening herald on page 11 the

fuck is the evening herald i don't know something a newspaper and uh it was her it was dwarfed on page 11 wasn't even the leading story on page 11 it was dwarfed on page 11. It wasn't even the leading story on page 11. It was dwarfed on page 11 by a larger story about a woman who had married her fortune teller. They just did not give a fuck. I predict we will get married. Was that all it was? And she was like, oh my God, it's written in the stars. He did.

He's a con artist. Great. But, right, so that's the end of Kieran Kelly. But you might remember you should remember because I told you to to remember this bit that Kelly had two siblings yes his younger sister and a brother well podcast creator and documentary I also just realized I oh no wait no I was like I think one of the business comments. One of those, I realized that I think I deleted a bit where I said to click the slide,

but maybe I just haven't got there yet. Oh no, it's on the next page. Sorry guys, I'm fucking it up. Anyway, so you remember that he had two siblings, a younger sister and a brother. Well, podcast creator and documentary maker and investigative journalist extraordinaire, Robert Mulhernhern actually went to Kieran Kelly's childhood home in Rathdowney where you know he's trying to dig up some of the the past colour like we said and when he was there he met Kieran Kelly's old neighbour and he was a man named Mark Whelan. Now Mark Whelan today when Rob Mulhern went to meet him was an 89 year old man

and he told Rob that when they'd all been kids, he had played with the Kelly kids. And he knew them quite well. He recalled how Kieran's younger sister, whose name I also don't know, would carry around a penknife and regularly find birds' nests and stab the baby birds she found in there to death.

They're coming up with the kids, with the Kelly kids, right? And what was interesting was that Mark Whelan told Rob is that he could remember that about the sister, and he remembered Kieran Kelly, but nobody ever really spoke about the brother. In fact, we don't even know if he was sort of like Kieran's younger brother or older brother. We just don't know.

We don't really know anything about him. He seems to have just not been around. Is he a horse? Sorry, sorry. So during this visit, for all of you just listening, it's because I ruined everything by showing a slide with a picture of something else on it. So during this visit to Rath Downey, apart from just meeting the old neighbour, Rob also found a man who had bought the Kellys' home and land after the entire Kelly family had very suddenly

up sticks and moved to Dublin back in 1937. And according to this man, in 1993, he's just minding his own business. He's owned this house now for like, you know, a long time. He's digging about in the garden. And much to his horror, he discovered a small skeleton with a wire noose around its neck in a shallow grave. And in that shallow grave was also a child's shoe. Now, this man was convinced that these remains that he had found were human and he immediately called the police. Very responsible thing to do I thought. And now

right Rob Mulhern is very careful not to do this and I'm also going to try be as careful. I'm not saying it's the body of Kieran Kelly's brother but know, the one that no one talks about. But it is weird. However, the police came. And important to point out at this point that Kieran Kelly's dad used to be a police officer. Okay. Back in that town, back in the day. So the police came when this man called them about the skeleton in his garden. They took one look at it and said that it was the skeleton of a donkey. Now, I'm not an expert. But this man's saying it's a human. Yeah.

And then the police are saying it's a donkey. And I don't know what's going on. I don't know what's going on. I don't know. But they took the skeleton away and the man never heard from the police ever again about it. But the guy who owned that house has always had his doubts and yeah ever since he found, as you would, you would have doubts if you ever found a small skeleton on your uh on your property but what added further suspicion to this was that for many years many many years after they had upped and moved away Kieran's younger sister would drive their mother up to the old house and the two of them would just sit in the car and look up at the

house like they were looking at a grave. And then they would drive away. And they did this every year. Suspect. Yep. But I'm not saying that it is. Either a donkey or dead. It's either that or that.

Or that. I don't know. But we don't know. Don't know. Why did they leave so suddenly? I don't know. I don't know but we don't know don't know why did they leave so suddenly i don't know i don't know we don't know so that's my ghost donkey yeah the ghost donkey was haunting them yeah fantastic done excellent correct it wide open there we go we nailed it okay we have overrun so we have a total of 12 minutes and 38 seconds for questions because Because that was the 60 minutes. No, it already reset. Oh, did it reset? Questions?

If you have questions, can we have the house lights up, please? Yes, please. Anyone got any questions? Speedy, speedy. Oh, I should tell you. So we've got a roving mic coming around if you have a question. Don't touch it because they don't want your disgusting germs. Just hold it and then once it is in front of your face, then you can take your mask off.

Oh, no, don't take your mask off. Don't take your mask off. Oh, no, don't take your mask off. Don't take your mask off. No mask off. Don't take your mask off. Don't do that. Anyone got any questions? 12 minutes, 8 seconds. Yes.

Someone there. Can we do masks in the next merch shop? That question was, can we do masks in the next merch shop? They do have them, Catalyst. But I was like, is this in bad taste? Because when I see people, I'm not saying your idea is a bad taste idea. My issue was, because I saw people being like,

we've got new masks to sell. And then people were like reacting with angry emojis. And I was like, I don't want that. I do feel like when we brought out the Get In The Bin merch, it was like right at the beginning of lockdown. And I really felt quite like iffy about like are we making money off the global crisis like it just feels like a bit like i know people are making masks and like fucking more power to you whatever but maybe we should they want maybe we should maybe like this is life now and we should just they

want one that says shut your dirty mouth on it that's what they want we're also now selling it well we're gonna start guys we're gonna start selling a... Well, we're going to start. Guys, we're going to start selling a T-shirt that says, not in this economy on it during possibly the biggest global recession we've ever had. So let's fucking do it. Whatever. Any other questions?

No. No, good. Do we have any questions coming in from the live stream? Maybe. Or not. Oh, there's one here. Barn Lady. If either of you could interview anybody

that you've done an episode on, who would it be? Okay, so that question was for our listeners at home. If we could interview anyone that we've done an episode on, who would it be? Dali Routier. That's a good one. I'm obsessed with her case. I felt like, did she do it?

Didn't she do it? I know a lot of people are like, she just did it. But I really don't know, especially after we did the Julie Rhea Harper case where that man did break into her house and kill her two kids. And it was at the same time and it was a similar area. I would love to interview her

because also, have you seen the interview with her and Werner Herzog? She just sings Amazing Grace at the end. Yeah, yeah. She's wild. So I would like to interview her. Oh, I'm stuck. Who do we talk about?

In 165 episodes. Let's just list them all. Brad Bradley. Yeah, you know what? Fuck it, Brad Bradley, because I just want to learn what it's like to be all. Brad Bradley. Yeah, you know what? Fuck it, Brad Bradley. Because I just want to learn what it's like to be so traumatically named. And what happened to my sister. And also, where is Amy?

Like, the eternal question. Absolutely. Anyone else? Yes. Yes. Okay. That question was for everyone at home. My go-to karaoke song is anything Destiny's Child. I can't do it.

Or No Scrubs. Or No Scrubs. What is Hannah's go-to song? So Hannah, answer that and I can't do it. Or no scrubs. Or no scrubs. What is Hannah's go-to song? So Hannah, answer that, and I will look at these. She's such a good singer, but she won't do it. Yeah, I'm not going to do it, sorry. No. I usually...

I'm going to sound like such a wanker, but what I keep in my back pocket is... Either any Peggy Lee um I used I used when I lived in Costa Rica I used to sing in a jazz band and we did a lot of Peggy Lee back then so I keep those and then uh also I have to be I have to be like three drinks deep for this one but I can do rehab that's more ironic than I thought we've got something coming up okay we had one above that was if you could um solve one unsolved murder or know the answer to one unsolved murder what would it be oh hard unsolved murder I don't know Oscar Pistorius but he did it yeah I know

Casey Anthony and Oscar Pistorius you fucking did it for me unsolved do you know what maybe the one we just did Arushi Tala the one we released this week like who did it I don't understand probably that um so yeah that one okay there was also a really good one that's disappeared now which was if you were a hiring manager you're such a good reader thank you if you were a hiring manager at a company and you were worried about an employee having a toxic personality what would be the one question you would ask to discover if they were is your name hannah mcguire nailed it um i don't know what you you did people management oh but i asked like bullshit questions because i wasn't really paying attention.

I'd already stalked them on their various social medias and decided whether I was going to hire them or not. I don't know. What's a question? Do you... Do you know what I would... When I was interviewing people, what I would pay the most attention to

is what they said their worst quality was. But then what... Everyone's like, I'm a perfection'm a perfectionist oh no if they say that like I hang them instantly that's the question if they answer what's your worst trait with I'm a perfectionist then I always say that I've got terrible sense of direction I didn't say this and I wish I had but I saw when I was like interviewing for my last job and I was like what should you say to what's my biggest like my worst trait or what's my biggest weakness and they were like chocolate and men and I was like oh lady I like that you took the time to write that down on reddit good for you um also looking for fucking interview answers on reddit what am I doing will you do a whole episode in song like a dramatic death musical yes um I'll work on it

yes um do you know I have a question for you. I know this is cheating. Can I ask it? I'm really scared. Oh, no, it's nothing. Sorry, go for it. It came to me while I was watching the Casey Anthony documentary I was doing while I was doing my face on the way here. Who is the person who got away with murder that angers you the most?

Oh. Got away with it. But they have to have, like, you know, gone to trial or something. Oh, fucking the one we can't talk about. Yeah, yeah. Aussie. Yeah, the Tinder date in the balcony. You all know who we're talking about.

We can't say his name anymore because he comes for us on Facebook and threatens to call the Inland Revenue. We pay our tax. I'll send you a PDF. Yes, he does. He threatens from Australia to call the British Inland pay our tax i'll send you a pdf he does he threatens he threatens from australia to call the british inland revenue on us yeah i'm like what's happening what's happening i don't know uh do we got any other questions from the audience anyone thinking have you ever stumbled across a story or a i'll just roll my bottle

i'll start again um have you got like a story or a case that you've stumbled across that has fascinated you that you couldn't make an episode on because of lack of evidence, lack of... or it's been done to death or anything? Yes. So the question there, just in case anyone couldn't hear, is have we come across... She's got a tiny hand! Oh, my God!

I was like, what the hell is going on? I really thought by now, I was like, no. I just got, I really bought mine. I was like, no. I'll show some restraint. They've done it for you. Yay. So the question was, is there a case that we have come across

that we've wanted to cover, but there hasn't been enough evidence or it's been done to death? Yes, I feel like. Heaps, heaps. What's one that's like, but what we've done now is sort of start siphoning them off into like halloween uh story swaps or something um where we can just like

compact it down a bit more i guess one i'm really interested but i feel like it's so well covered is the panama girls one um it's so out there as in like it's so well covered but it's something that i'm really interested in which one the girls that put cocaine in their bums no no it's the one where those um chris and that's it chris and lasanne they are two ladies from the netherlands i think and they go to panama and then they disappear and then their bodies are found. Oh, them! Not the drug mules. No.

Okay. What's the worst date you've ever been on? Ask Molly. Mine was the one that I talked about in that short-lived car chronicles where I went on a date with a man on a Tuesday and then I went on a date with another man on the Sunday. Get it. And then Tuesday man was in the bar

sat at the table next to us. And I turned up 15 minutes late, because that's just how I roll, and then immediately walked in, hugged this guy over his shoulder, saw that the other guy was there, and then said, sorry, I have to go to the toilet, and then ran into the toilet

and then sent Hannah a voicemail about it. It was very traumatic. And then I came out and I was like, we're going to have to move. It was very traumatic. That was the worst for me. I think, oh God, I've had so many. But I think the worst one that was like the most similar to that is I walked into this bar with this guy and he starts talking to this girl on the way. It was like a very like date bar, like it's booths only, like blah, blah, blah. And he starts talking to this girl on the way. It was like a very like date bar. Like it's booths only, like blah, blah, blah. And he starts talking to this girl who sat there with this guy as he walks in. And he's like, oh, this is Hannah.

She's like, oh, I'm ****. And I was like, okay. And she was like asking about work, whatever. And then we sit down. I was like, oh, like who is that? Assuming that it was someone that he worked with. And he was like, no, no, that's my ex-girlfriend. We were together for seven years and I haven't seen her in four.

And she was just right there. no no that's my ex-girlfriend we were together for seven years and i haven't seen her in four and she was just right oh that's all and then for the rest of the time he had his back to her and she was just fucking eyeballing me from like yeah it was awful no you've just got to move in that situation it was an omen any more questions from the audience yes spooky bitch lady spooky lady yes i know you am a spooky bitch. Yes. We love it. I know you guys love peep show, so who's Mark and who's Jeremy? I'm Mark. I'm obviously Jeremy. Yeah. We've never actually talked about that before, but that is so weird.

Did that surprise anybody, though? I think there was another hand up back there. Yes. Of all of the cases you guys have covered, which one has affected you guys the most or which victim did you feel the most sorry for? Obviously, getting murdered is bad, but, like, you know. I hear you. I hear you.

They hit you differently, for sure. For you, it was the toy box, right? I think that's the one that I dreamt about, but the one that makes me feel the most sad is, and it's not even, well it is a victim in a different way, I suppose. It's Central Park Five. It's Kobe Wise. I think about him all the time. Yeah. Because like he was

and he was not even there and like his name wasn't even on the list. He just went down to the police station because his friend was scared and then he ends up in Rikers Island for fucking 16 years or some shit. But the worst thing is, is that he when he was at the police station, every other kid, their parents came and waited for them, but no one came for Corey Wise.

And they knew he was there. And that is what I think about that one the most, I think. That's affected me. Yeah, for me, I think it was maybe the Nirabaya case, the Nideli rape case. I just found that one. I put that off for so long, I didn't want to cover it. She was, you know, Jyothi was the exact same age as me. Like it was

just, it hit me really hard. That one I really, really struggled with because she was just doing something so ordinary and like the worst thing imaginable happened to her. But yeah, I think generally we're quite good at compartmentalization, but it does get to you sometimes, for sure. Someone's just put, I use your would-you-rather-only-eat-pineapples-for-the-rest-of-your-life or have pineapples for hands as my Bumble icebreaker. Yes! Yes! I've made it onto Bumble.

How exciting. Because, no, I don't go on Bumble. All the men on there are... Bumble is too much pressure, man. All the men are too posh on Bumble, I find. It is, yeah. Posh boys. Posh boys.

Posh boys only. We've got literally like 30 seconds. Anyone? Anyone else? One last question. Yes, right at the back. Oh, is that me? As for the murderers,

who would you sort of most fancy secretly? Do you know what? I should have paused longer like I'd thought about it. Like I hadn't thought about it. Do you know what? I should have paused longer like I'd thought about it. Like I hadn't thought about it. Do you know what? And I know I'm not his cup of tea, but Jeffrey Dahmer is quite attractive.

Do you not think? Everyone goes on about Ted Bundy. I think Jeffrey Dahmer is way more attractive. He's got, like, a very strong jaw. It was the question that was asked. Yeah, no, I know.'s got, like, a very strong jaw. It was the question that was asked. Yeah, no, I know. I just, I, um...

Oh, God. Yeah, you shallow bitch. Fuck. Then it's Fred. Fred West. All the way. Fred West! We're going to have

such a long discussion about this. Come on. I don't, honestly, I don't know. No? No. No. Well, on that anticlimactic note, we'll end it.

Yeah, we'll have time. We'll have time, guys. But thank you so much for coming out. Thank you so much. In, like, a minute, guys. Thank you so much. We are going to run out. Thank you.

Oh, I'll take a picture. We're going to take a. Thank you. Oh, I'll take a picture. We're going to take a really quick picture. So like all like smile through your masks. Yeah, I know. Let's see. Oh my God. It just, it looks so like, we'll just say hashtag COVID. Go get another.

I'll be like, why is there nobody there at this show? Yay. Yeah. Cool. We did it. Thank you guys so much. Thank you so much. Have a good night.

Thank you. How do I open you so much. Have a good night. Thank you. How do I open this door? Oh, thank you. Thank you. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met.

But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me,

and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either, until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life.

I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness. And inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts.