RedHanded - Episode 169 - The Toolbox Killers: Lawrence Bittaker & Roy Norris

Episode Date: October 15, 2020

On Halloween night 1979, 16 year old Lynette Ledford was on her way home from a party when she vanished. The discovery of her body the next day set in motion a disturbing investigation into a pair of brutal serial killers who had raped, tortured and murdered their way across the state for months.  John E Douglas - the FBI profiler who assessed the likes of Manson, BTK, Bundy, John Wayne Gacy, David Berkowitz and Richard Speck - said of one of this pair: “He was the most disturbing man I’ve profiled”. MERCH: www.redhandedshop.com  Sources: www.redhandedpodcast.com   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Saruti.

I'm Hannah, apparently. She's not sure, guys. It was her birthday yesterday. I'm probably not even going to remember recording this. But I do find that at our most hungover, we are quite insightful. So I'm excited. I'm really hoping that my third eye is just going to open like Aladdin's cave and then we'll know. For sure. How many metaphors can I mix today? The worst thing is, not the worst thing, my best friend's birthday is tomorrow.

So I have to take her out for dinner tonight. We have to do it all over again. Oh my God. That's intense. Happy birthday, Zara. That's so intense. Isn't it? You can do it. I believe in you. I believe in you, Hannah. And I always feel so terrible because like, I'm always so hung over and underprepared for her birthday because I'm always just like so concerned with my own because I'm a selfish bitch just start drinking now and then it will help you get there and give you an alcohol problem yeah exactly actually Cerruti got me a really great bag last year that says notorious rbg on it it's got a picture of Ruth Bader Ginsburg it's getting so much love it's getting so much love people stop me on the street and ask me about it people talk to me in the pub about it

oh really yeah so literally yesterday I was carrying it around because I started, I sort of put it in my wardrobe and almost half forgot about it and then took it out the other day and be like, oh, like three months ago, obviously before RBG died. But I think now since she's died, people are a bit more aware of it. So much love. That was such a good present from you. Oh, I'm glad. you're good at presents though you're a good present buyer i'm excited to give you this year's present but you'll have to wait until i see you do you want to know what i got you for your birthday no i want a surprise no okay fine oh guys this is it this is the october love we fucking love october because it's both of our

birthdays and it's fucking halloween and we just bring out the grizzly shit like you know we do and that's why you're here and don't worry we are continuing with our Halloween themed absolute fucking horror fest but before we get to that very quick announcement that is also very October themed guys the spooky bitch merch is now out it is only going to be out for another like two and a bit weeks when you're listening to this so if you want it please go get it it's at redhandedshop.com the link is in the episode description go get the merch because once it's gone i have no idea when we'll bring it back maybe never maybe never that's a lie we also have a website now we do redhandedpodcast.com you can go there and find the shop there as well if you don't want to go to Red Handed Shop. Absolutely. And it's also now where we put all of the sources

and the documentaries and the books that we recommend throughout the episodes that we talk about. So if you're interested in that, go check out our website. Link is also probably in the episode description. It's the most likely place to find it. That is the first logical place to look for it. If not, put it in Google. Other than that, if you would like to come hang out with us

after this show, you can do so under the duvet on patreon.com slash red handed. We've just been having a good time on under the duvet recently. I think it's like escapism. And we'll be recording this particular under the duvet. Yes. In a haunted mansion on the South Downs. I've decided it's haunted. It might not be haunted. It's also a cottage. It's definitely not a mansion. We'll find out. We'll report back. We're trying our best. An impromptu Red Haunted, possibly for this week's Under the Duvet. Last week's Under the Duvet

was also very interesting. We talked about the new Chris Watts documentary on Netflix. We also talked about those presidential debates, if that's what you want to call it. And we also dug out the very best dating advice that the internet had to offer. So if you want to listen to that,

head on over to patreon.com slash redhanded right now. And also Hannah getting rejected by a blue ticked actor that she's known for 10 years. That one as well. There's a lot. There's a lot of content. So much content. We can't control ourselves.

So yeah, under the duvet, $5 on our patrons. It's well worth the money. If you're like, maybe I need a bit more. Well, maybe you think about signing up to be a $10 plus patron, because if you do do that, next week, you will be getting our monthly full-length bonus episode that goes out, and it's going to be on Charles Albright. So, you know, if you listen to this episode and you're not sufficiently scarred and traumatized, maybe come over there for some eyebrow gouging. That would be fine. Eyeball gouging.

So yeah, that's all of the stuff you should be aware of. I think possibly. So yeah, go do that. Links are in the right place. And also go and vote. Be very aware of that. Yes. For the love of God, please go vote. Please, for the love of God. Please, please, please, please, please go vote. He's out of hospital now, hey? Fuck. He is. Bastard.

We'll see. We'll see. Anyway, that sounded like a threat. I didn't mean to laugh. I'll put him back in there myself. But no, like we said, we are continuing with the absolute fucking horror fest today with a nightmare case from 70s California, which I really feel like is a time and place where everything nightmarish happened. The thing is, I think California is the best place to hide a body.

There's trees, there's canyons, there's rocks. It's fucking huge. There's fires all the time. I really think that, like, it's the place to hide a body if you're going to hide one. God's own graveyard. There you go. God's own graveyard. I also feel like this case is like, it's like a true crime 101 yes i'm amazed

we haven't done it sooner to be honest because quite a lot of true crime shows do this as their first episode i was definitely like we're saving it we're saving this for halloween because it's fucking horrific prepare yourselves like fair warning i know last week was also like a no eating episode this is also i'm gonna say a no eating episode. This is also, I'm going to say, a no eating episode. Yep, yep, yep. It's very traumatic. If you think that we're exaggerating about how bad it is, well, John E. Douglas, he was one of the first profilers at the FBI, and he profiled the likes of like Manson, BTK, Bundy, John Wayne Gacy,

David Berkowitz and Richard Speck, said of one of our main characters today, Lawrence Bittica, quote, he was the most disturbing man I've ever profiled. So if that doesn't put the shits up, you're nothing well. We are talking about Halloween night in 1979 in Sunland, California. Sunland, possibly, who knows? Where 16-year-old Lynette Ledford was on her way to a Halloween party with her best friend. After the party, Lynette got a ride home with some boys.

They stopped at a petrol station and an argument broke out between the driver and Lynette. He wanted money and she didn't have any. So Lynette was left at the petrol station. She was stuck. She didn't have any way of getting home and she didn't want to call her mum so late to ask her to come and pick her up. Neither would I, Lynette. Jesus Christ, my mum would have skinned me alive.

You imagine, like, ringing your mum in the middle of the night, being like, I'm stuck at a petrol station in the middle of nowhere. Mate, no, don't do it, Lynette. But maybe do do it. But maybe, I'm sure, yeah, never mind. Not even going to follow up on that thought. And just as Lynette was starting to panic, she heard a beep. It was a silver van.

And driving was a man she recognised. Lynette worked at the local McDonald's and this guy was always in there. The man introduced himself as Lawrence and he asked her if she wanted a lift and Lynette gratefully agreed. Once in the van, Lynette realised that Lawrence wasn't alone. There was another man in the van and he called himself Roy. The following morning, Lynette Ledford's body was found not far from where she'd last been seen, by a jogger in the front garden of a home on a quiet residential street. She had been brutally tortured and killed. Given the location of her body, it was clear that finding her was no accident. Her killers had wanted her to be discovered. They wanted to see the media's

reaction because Lynette wasn't the beginning of their murderous spree. They had already been killing undetected for months. But thanks to their sort of weird need for attention, Lynette would be their final victim. Now when Lynette's body turned up, the police were horrified by the extent of her injuries. And although she had been easily found out in the open, and there had been, like, no attempts to try and sort of conceal her body or conceal that part of the crime, they didn't really find much else to go on. It seemed like a totally random killing. However, as the story blew up on TV and in the news,

a man named Joseph Jackson was watching and something was bothering him. He had met two men named Roy Norris and Lawrence Bittica whilst he'd been in prison a few years back and he and Norris had recently run into each other again. After a few drinks, Norris had told him that he and Bittica had killed four teenage girls in California and got away with it. Jackson remembered being really disturbed by the glee with which Norris had recounted the stories of assault, rape and torture. It had particularly got to Jackson because he had two teenage daughters of his own. But despite how weird and sick he found it, initially he hadn't taken Norris particularly seriously.

However, now that the body of Lynette had turned up with injuries that sounded a lot like what Norris had described, Jackson thought he ought to go to the police. Jackson is great in this. Like good for you. For sure. He's like the hammer that cracked this case open because without him, it's a typical case for police. You know, they're going to be like, it's a random killing. It's possibly a serial killing, but they're killing people completely unconnected to them in random attacks. How could we possibly connect the dots? So Jackson really provides them with the ability to do that. But the problem was that when Jackson went to the LA County Police with his suspicions about

Roy Norris, no one was interested. And this is because Jackson didn't have any evidence. And here he was telling the police about this man that he barely knew, whom he suspected of killing four girls. Jackson was basically fobbed off and just told to go to the Hermosa Beach police station. And he did. And here he met a detective named Paul Bynum, who did take him seriously. Bynum listened as Jackson told him in graphic detail what Norris had confessed to him. And when Jackson revealed that Norris and Bittica drove around in a silver van, Paul Bynum could hardly believe it.

A month before the murder of Lynette Ledford, another girl, Shirley Sanders, had also been attacked. She had been walking home on the 30th of September when two men in a silver van had pulled up and asked her if she wanted a lift. She had said no, so they pepper-sprayed her and dragged her into the vehicle. They then took it in turns raping Shirley, but somehow she managed to escape and make a run for

it. She went to the police and gave a description of her attackers and of their van, and it matched exactly what Jackson was describing. But Bynum needed to be sure, so he got Shirley in to do a photo ID, and she easily picked out Norris and Bittica from the line-up that he presented her. Bynum immediately put Norris and Bittica under surveillance, and quickly he caught Norris selling weed. And we have to remember that Norris and Jackson had met in prison, and selling weed is very much a parole violation.

So Bynum brought Norris in. It's all he needed. It's also all he needed to get a warrant. The police searched Norris's truck and found a cassette tape. And this tape would go on to become one of the most notorious pieces of serial killing evidence in US history. Even if you don't know this case, there is something rattling around in the back of your head about this cassette tape. And if you just Google Lynette Ledford's face, you have seen her face and you are aware of this audio. I'm certain of it. The tape is a recording of the final 17 minutes of Lynette Ledford's life. On the tape, you can hear a terrified 16-year-old Lynette being viciously tortured and screaming for her life. Gut-wrenchingly, Lynette's mum had to identify her daughter's voice on the tape.

Can you imagine? No, I can't. No, I really can't. Just the idea of even having to make a parent look at their child's dead body and identify them, even if they cover up the worst damage and all of this. But the tape, making her mum have to listen to the tape to identify her daughter's voice, I mean, it's so much. I think about voices a lot, probably because I'm a podcaster. But recently, I've been thinking about voices quite a lot. I think probably like

the 10 closest people in my life, I can recognise their voice from like a mile away. Like it's such a specific thing. Maybe something we don't even think about enough. Like people's voices are so unique, I think. Oh, oh absolutely and it's completely intuitive and especially I don't know if this is true but I think especially possibly for women I think I'm definitely a more like picking up on people's voices and things like that rather than their faces I find it actually quite hard to remember sometimes what like a person's face looks like if I've just met them a few times but I can recognize their voice maybe more easily yes interesting is it's not something I've like you never think about voice identification really just met them a few times but I can recognize their voice maybe more easily. It's interesting

it's not something I've like you never think about voice identification really like it's all visual stuff but I think it is much easier to pick out like I can pick out like my sister's voice from like if like 20 people were talking at the same time I'm gonna know which one is her. Yeah and I think you know back then when this was happening I don't think that they would have had possibly not the high-tech equipment they would have today to isolate it and tell if it was definitely Lynette and compare it to other samples. So her mum has to do it. We're going to come back to the tape, including what is on there and the impact that it had on the case. We're going to come back to a little bit later on, but we're not going to play any of it because this isn't a torture porn podcast and we're just not going to do it. It's out there. It's on the interwebs.

But we strongly recommend that you do not go and listen to it. And this isn't a like, don't but do. It's genuinely like your mental health will be better off for not listening to it. Yeah. I tried and I couldn't. It's unnecessary. You don't need it. I've read the transcript of it.

You don't need to listen to it. You don't need to hear the terror in Lynette's voice. There is nothing to be gained and a lot to lose by listening to it. So please don't do it. The tape is so horrendous that seasoned detectives broke down after listening to it. And when it was later played to Norris's defense attorneys, one of them ran off and didn't come back to the legal proceedings for three months. That's how bad it is. Don't listen to it. So when Norris was confronted with the tape, given that his voice is clearly audible on the recording, he knew he was fucked. So Norris told Bynum that he wanted to take a plea deal. He said that Lawrence Bittica, his partner, who is definitely on the tape the more like predominant voice, was the main killer. And Norris agreed to testify against Bittica

in exchange for avoiding the death penalty. Norris told the police about all of the killings in intense detail, explaining that they had only found one body, that of Lynette Ledford's, but that there were four more out there. Following this, the police arrested Lawrence Bittica and searched his apartment. And there they found some scary shit.

They discovered Polaroids of over 500 young women and girls. They also discovered several bottles of acid. Norris told the police that Bittica had been planning to use it on their next victim. In the silver van, police found a toolbox with a hammer, a pair of pliers, a jar of Vaseline and a variety of torture devices all matching norris's story about the implements that the men had used on their victims the police also discovered bits of jewelry that look like they belong to teenage girls polaroid cameras have made such an appearance this week and last week and i was thinking about

it and i was like why is it that serial killers like fucking love a Polaroid camera? And I've just realized how stupid I am for even questioning it because obviously you can't fucking take it to boots, can you? And develop it.

Like, and it's the instant gratification of like the instant, the picture, right? But like, I was like, oh, like I've made such an interesting point. But like, oh, it's all about instant gratification.

No, Hannah, it's because they can't take it somewhere to be developed, you moron. It's two pronged. It's two pronged, I think. It's both of those. It's a two birds with one stone situation for them. Oh, God. Right. So after all he had found in this apartment, Bynum was ready to move. And so on the 28th of November, Bynum called the LA Deputy District Attorney, Stephen Kaye. Kaye's ears

pricked up when he heard Roy Norris' name, because he already knew who he was. But before we get into that, or all of the horrible details Roy Norris was about to spill, let's start with who Norris actually was, and the series of events that led him and Lawrence Bitteker to come into each other's lives. Roy Norris was born on the 5th of February 1948 in Colorado. His parents were forced to get married when they conceived him, even though they were not ready or keen to do so, and they massively blamed baby Roy for it. His parents never wanted Norris, and he was pretty much neglected for his entire childhood. He was bounced around all over the place, from foster

homes to his parents to other relatives. No one wanted him. And while it's not super clear what type of abuse Norris suffered in these foster homes, it's almost certain that he did suffer abuse and it was most likely sexual abuse. Norris was also never the sharpest tool in the toolbox. He dropped out of high school in the mid-60s and joined the Navy. And when you read about this or watch the documentaries on this, I felt like a lot is made about the fact that he served in Vietnam. But when you dig into it a bit closer, he didn't actually see any action. And I'm not saying that that didn't have an impact on him.

And I'm not saying that he didn't hear horror stories or probably do some bad shit while he was out there. But he wasn't like on the front line. So I don't know. I feel like they make it a bigger thing than it possibly is. But whatever he was up to in Vietnam, one thing we do know for sure is that it was while he was away there that Norris discovered drugs. He was eventually actually discharged from the military on psychological grounds after he began attacking women. And from our episode on command rape i felt

like it must have been pretty fucking bad shit he was doing if he was actually removed and sent home over it especially when there was a fucking war going on yeah i was like what were you doing i mean especially the vietnam war of all places like are you snow girl whose dad was a vietnam vet she's from connecticut and her dad forbade her to ever go to Vietnam. He was like, it's a hellhole. Don't go there. God. Yeah, I really think that like, even though he was,

he had potentially not seeing that much action, I think overall, probably a pretty terrible experience. And also so common for people to get addicted to fucking heroin while they're out there. I can imagine. I mean, I went to Vietnam and I went to the, like, war museum there. Fucking hell. That wasn't a fun day out. Obviously very necessary and I'm glad I went, but Jesus.

And do you know what else I saw when I was there? I was in the war museum. I was having a very difficult time digesting all of it. I was with my friend. Hi, Eamon. She was there. Suddenly, we hear some yelling. And we're like, what's going on?

No word of a lie. It was an American man who was there yelling that it was all lies. Jesus Christ. When I went, like, I went with my friend who is American. And she I mean, obviously, the war museum is a difficult day for everyone. But she had to sit down outside and just, like, take a minute

because she was like, it's fucked. Like, we're not taught any of this. And actually, my really good friend, she doesn't listen to the show so I can say it I'm just not gonna say I know Harvard educated right I was talking about like how in the UK we don't learn about the Boer War because we lost it we lost both of them and also invented the concentration camp it's not covered in GCSE history it's all sort of skated over I actually got detention for asking why there was only a paragraph about the Boer War. And I got told I was being obtuse. Anyway, so I was asking her, I was like, oh, like, how is the Vietnam War presented in school? Because like, we don't cover wars that we lost.

And she, Harvard graduate, we didn't lose the Vietnam War. I was like, no, no, you really did. America really did lose the Vietnam War. And she was like, no, no of left and I was like I don't know like who's teaching your military history but kind of leaving is losing sorry about it so I mean blow up the Facebook group with your opinions on the Vietnam War please oh yeah because you know we haven't had one of those in a while so yeah let's go for it but anyway yeah so Vietnam War bad. And Roy Norris was so fucking bad that they were like, you can't be here. This is fucking crazy, but you are so fucking crazy. You can't be here. So they sent him home. And after he was sent home in 1969, he made his way back to Southern California and continued with these attacks. And in the first sort of like recorded incident, Norris forced his way into a

taxi and tried to rape the female driver. He was sent to prison, but he was released just three months later. I feel like three months isn't long enough. I feel like this is also a theme of his life. That's not long enough. It's mad that you get more for robbing a bank than you do for raping a woman. I mean, it's crazy. When he got out, of course, he continued to attack more women. And he did it all. He broke into their houses, he'd attack them on the street, whatever it took. In May 1969, the summer of love, he walked up to a student on campus at San Diego University,

grabbed her, got her to the floor, and smashed her head repeatedly against the pavement. And miraculously, the young woman survived. And Deputy DA Stephen Kaye, who we've already met, was the one to try that particular case. So that is how he knew Norris already existed. And for this horrific attack, Norris was charged with assault and sent to Atascadero State Hospital, which is a psychiatric facility for the criminally insane. And also where Ed Kemper was, where he outsmarted all of the psychiatrists,

being like, no, I'm fine, let me out. Oh, yeah. And I think there's a big theme of that running through this whole fucking episode as well. So at Atascadero, Norris was diagnosed with a severe schizoid personality. And although he was sentenced to five years, Norris was released after just three months again.

What the fuck? He, like, savagely attacks this girl. And then he's sentenced to five and gets released after just three, after being sent to a high-security psychiatric facility. How? How is this happening? There is a book out there on this case, which I will link below. It's just called The Toolbox Killers, and it's by Jack Rosewood and Rebecca Lowe. And in that, they're sort of talking about this particular point and this particular release.

And they say that he was released due to an error. And then you had to turn over the page to like carry on the sentence. And I thought they were were gonna say due to a massive error that like fucking happened in the hospital they released him early there was a huge mix-up no it said due to an error in judgment i would say that buying like low salt ketchup is a error in judgment not releasing a man who has attacked multiple women. You know what is a fucking error in judgment? Accidentally buying light mozzarella. I've never hated myself so much. Or light mayonnaise.

Exactly. Disgusting. Fuck off. Give me the fats. I need them. So after getting out this particular time, of course, guess what Norris did? He immediately went out and went attacking again. And this time he raped a 27-year-old woman. So again, he was caught because he's not very good at getting away with it.

That's what you discover very quickly about Roy Norris. So he's caught and he's sent this time to the California Men's Colony, which is an all-male state prison located in San Luis Obispo County, California. I've been there. So funny. When I was traveling, I met this person and they were like, oh, I'm from California. And I was like, oh, where? And they were like, San Luis Obispo. And they were like, you probably never heard of it. And I was like, I have heard of it. And they were like, what? And I didn't want to say,

because there's a fucking fuck off prison there that I read about all the time. I drove through it once. I don't remember much about it. I just remember there was a waiter talking about speeding. That's probably why there's a massive prison there. Yeah, not much of it as I remember. Just like some motels and like a diner. No. But men's colony San Luis Obispo is a rather magical place because this is where Roy Norris met Lawrence Bittica. Now, unlike Roy Norris, who clearly had a very disastrous childhood, when you first look at Bittica's life, at least his early life, it doesn't seem that bad. But then when you dig a bit deeper, I don't know, I don't feel like what happens to him in his very

early, early life is that out of the ordinary to like within the realms of normality that a child would experience. But as we've always discussed before, the external stimulus is just one thing and it's also the inherent personality traits and psychological makeup of that person. As we'll go on to discuss, Lawrence Bittica is not okay. So I think one of the things that he takes particularly badly is that Bittica was adopted

and I think his whole life he dealt with sort of like massive issues of abandonment. We've seen that time and time again. Things like with Ted Bundy. You know, yes, his like fucking sister was his mum. But like, that's what he goes on about all the time. Like he explains why he raped and murdered all those women. Yeah, I forgot about mum, sister. Yep, the classic.

You ain't my mother! Oh my god. One for the my mother! Oh my God. One for the southern Brits there. Enjoy. Thank you very much. Yeah, just some EastEnders content for your Wednesday, Thursday, whenever it is. Jesus Christ, I'm hungover.

Let's go! Bittiger started getting into pity crime at the age of just 12 and from then on he was constantly in trouble with the law. Interestingly, though you called it pity crime, I do kind of think that he was doing a lot of it for attention and for sympathy and like to get attention from his parents. So interesting slip of the tongue, because I do think that was his motivation.

And although Bitteker had a very high IQ, which is around 138, which is high, I think maybe Ed Kemper was in the 140s. I think something... They're so similar. Lawrence B. I think maybe Ed Kemper was in the 140s, I think. Something... They're so similar. Lawrence Bittica is very Ed Kemper. But even though he was a smutty pants, he did not do very well at school, academically or socially. And obviously, we already know this, you all know that IQ tests are flawed because you're all incredibly intelligent people. So we all know that having a high IQ doesn't mean you will flourish in school. But it is a bit more indicative of Bittica's propensity for boredom

and his antisocial behaviour traits. He probably, like a lot of psychopaths, found it quite difficult to be told what to do by people he thought were inferior to him. I think it screams of like a man who, or a child at this point and a teenager at this point, who just found it incredibly boring. I think he found life and school and, who just found it incredibly boring. I think he found life and school and just all of it just incredibly tedious. So he dropped out of high school as a teenager and fell further into a life of crime. Now, unlike Norris, who was an extremely violent offender, it is important to note that for much of his early crime life,

Bitteker mainly engaged in crimes like theft and material crimes rather than violence against other people. But his crimes were enough that Lawrence Bittiker found himself in and out of juvie and then in and out of adult prison most of his early life. He practically grew up in jail. And after a few years of this and his sort of like, you know, just reckless behavior, his adopted parents disowned him. And this and this I think absolutely compounded for Bittica the feelings of abandonment due to having been given up for adoption by his birth parents and now being disowned by his adoptive parents. So in 1961 he was convicted of robbery and he was sentenced to 1 to 15 years. I was like that's quite a differential, but okay. It was at this point, when he was arrested and sentenced for this, that he finally had his very first psychiatric evaluation done.

And the assessor found Lawrence Bitteker to have, quote, considerable concealed hostility, and also marked him as being highly manipulative. In another assessment the following year, they found Bittica to have low impulse control and they said the stealing made him feel important but again possibly because up until this point he'd never really been violent Bittica was released so here we're seeing like the classic steps that some killers do take some criminals do take which is like the petty crime the petty crime and then building up and building up Bittica is unusual because he doesn't step it up into violent crime until like quite a bit later in life than we usually see. We usually see this sort of thing transcending from petty crime into

violence in maybe the late teens, early twenties. Bittica's a late bloomer, but we see the typical psychopathic traits, you know, the concealed hostility, the manipulation, the grandiose sense of self and the low impulse control. Like he's got it all. But despite being released at this point, Bitteker obviously wouldn't or couldn't turn his life around. And he went on to get arrested again and again. His rap sheet during this time was mainly for things like burglary, hit and runs, theft, leaving scenes of a collision, moving stolen cars. None of it's great, but nothing really predictive of what he was going to do. They're all, you know, not good, but it wouldn't define you as a terrible person in the same way that what he goes on to do would.

Following another arrest a few years later, Bittica was diagnosed with borderline psychosis. It's hard to say what's really going on with Bittica, psychologically speaking. Every time he found himself in front of a professional, he came out with a different diagnosis, which I think is quite common. But I do think that looking at what commonalities the various experts found, Bittica was a dangerous mix of intelligent, paranoid and psychopathic. Lovely. Yep. Take him home to meet your mum. Delightful. You're so intelligent and paranoid and psychopathic. I love it.

Only psychopaths need apply, thank you. So in 1974, Lawrence Bittica was once again out on parole after a hit and run incident. And during this time, one day he went to a supermarket and he casually put a steak down his trousers and just walked out of the store. An employee who saw it obviously followed him out to confront Bittica. At which point, Lawrence Bittica took out a knife and stabbed the poor man in the chest multiple times.

For this, he was charged with attempted murder, but only convicted of assault. How is that assault? My God. He stabbed him in the chest several times. I don't know. But this particular incident is why Lawrence Bittiger found himself locked up at the men's colony just in time to cross paths with Roy Norris. The two of them, their friendship sort of blossomed quite quickly. Roy Norris, rather romantically I thought, showed Bittiger how to make jewellery, which I'm like, that's nice to have a pastime. Bittiger, in exchange, saved Norris apparently from getting beaten up on multiple occasions. And by 1978, the two were sharing their deepest, darkest thoughts, all centred around fantasies of sexual violence against young girls.

It's quite rare for inmates to share information like this so openly. And as we all know, there is a prison hierarchy and sexual predators, particularly those who offend against children, are often at the very, very bottom. We don't know for sure who opened up first, but given that it was Norris who had the history of sex attacks, I think it was probably him. Although, as we will see, Bittica goes on to be the more sadistic one. Which is weird given that he hadn't shown this kind of inclination up until right now.

But of course, it doesn't mean that it wasn't there. So let's talk a little bit about team killers. While it isn't that rare that killers pair up, it certainly isn't the norm. But usually when they do, killer pairs are the most deadly in terms of sheer numbers. What's strange about Norris and Bittica, though, is that most killer pairs are usually couples, or they're related, or at least long-term friends. These two just met by total chance and barely knew each other when they started planning their killing dreams together. Now, I tried to look up the psychology of two men who kill together, especially two men who kill together who aren't romantically involved.

And it was really hard to find much information at all. Most of the information out there does seem to be on the usual combination we see, which is usually killer pairs that are a heterosexual couple. And in these cases, the man is usually the more dominant one and the more sexually sadistic one. Though, of course, as we know, this isn't always the case. For example, with the Wests, it was definitely Rose who was in charge there. The most I could glean as to what the sort of relationship is

when it's a two-man team who are not romantically involved is that it seems to be a relationship developed out of practicality more than anything else. So because they believe that they're stronger together. Like if a victim escapes and they have more manpower to deal with the situation, I think possibly here as well, Norris and Bittica perhaps saw something in each other that the other one was missing.

So Bittica's brains versus Norris's brawn combo, possibly. They never really talk about it because as we go on to see they turn on each other so there's never any explanation but I think that's the danger isn't it that's the inherent danger of teaming up in a serial killer combo with someone you don't fucking know and have no like ties to because they're gonna fucking turn on you yeah exactly and I think you know coming back to the point of like who opened up first because imagine how risky it is in a man's prison to open up and start sharing your sexual fanties about wanting to like rape and torture and murder children.

I think it's Norris because Norris is the one who tells Jackson. He's the one, as you'll go on to see, who's always fucking running his mouth. And I think he was just really lucky with Bittica that he opened up to him and Bittica was like, I like the sound of this tell me more rather than I'm gonna beat the fucking shit out of you I'm really struggling to think of a single other like double male heterosexual killer team I can't think of one there's Otis Tool and Kenneth Bianchi were they the pair maybe oh my god were they not the pair wait no no no no it's Otis Tool and Henry Lee Lucas they not the pair? Wait. No, no, no, no.

It's Otis Toole and Henry Lee Lucas. They're the only ones. But I wonder if there was something maybe sexual about their relationship. I don't know. I can't remember. It's been a very long time since I read anything about them. In this case, it is interesting that Bittica was interviewed like maybe like five years ago when he was in prison. And he said when he was asked if he was homosexual and if him and Norris had a homosexual relationship and he said the thing about me is I'm very flexible but Norris

he was a homophobe so I don't know he doesn't clearly answer it so I mean maybe he had a go I don't know but let's continue with the case shall we is it the wrong time to make a men with reference probably moving on Stephen Kaye the deputy DA of LA County, wanted Norris and Bitteker, but given the lack of bodies or any real physical evidence, he knew that he was going to have to cut a deal and only Norris was talking. So he agreed that Norris could plead guilty to second degree murder and avoid the death penalty if he testified against Bitteker. Norris jumped all over this and started to spill every horrible little bean he could about the five murders. He told police how he and Bitteker had spent months in prison planning how they were going to sexually assault and murder teenage

girls when they were released. He said that they even decided that they would murder a girl from each teenage year, so from 13 all the way up to 19. He never explained why they did this but Norris also confessed that apparently he and Bittica planned on specifically murdering seven young girls in total. One for each year that they had spent in prison by that point. So when you put that point together with the fact that they want to kill one girl from each year obviously it just shows like a high amount of like precision planning. I think it's Bittica who's leading on this because Norris isn't that kind of personality. But I do also think that maybe it's not just about the fact of who they're sexually attracted to,

but also possibly because they felt like maybe society had stolen their youth from them because they spent all of it in prison. I don't know. Or they're just like fucking anal weirdos who want to have this very specific plan. So get this. The Ontario Liberals elected Bonnie Crombie as their new leader.

Bonnie who? I just sent you a profile. Her first act as leader, asking donors for a million bucks for her salary. That's excessive. She's a big carbon tax supporter. Oh yeah. Check out her record as mayor. Oh, get out of here. She even a big carbon tax supporter. Oh, yeah. Check out her record as mayor.

Oh, get out of here. She even increased taxes in this economy. Yeah, higher taxes, carbon taxes. She sounds expensive. Bonnie Crombie and the Ontario Liberals. They just don't get it. That'll cost you. A message from the Ontario PC Party. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart.

But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lanie Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry, but things took a dark turn when a million dollars

worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus.

In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved

me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Now everything we're about to discuss next comes from Norris's statements to the police about what happened. Most of it was eventually backed up by physical evidence, but we're about to discuss next comes from Norris's statements to the police about what happened. Most of it was eventually backed up by physical evidence, but we can't know if the specifics are exactly right. Norris said that Bittica was the first to be released from the men's colony on the 15th of October 1978, and he moved back to Los Angeles.

He even got himself a job as a machinist, earning $1,000 a week in 1978. That's pretty good going. Not in this fucking economy. Can you imagine? $1,000 a week. My God, that blew my mind when I read that. Okay, shameless plug, Not In This Economy merch is out on the 23rd of October. So if you want to get your hands on that, stay tuned. I'm really excited about it, actually.

Me too. It's going to be great. So during this time as a machinist, which just makes me think of emaciated Christian Bale, I'm not even sure I know what a machinist is, he waited for Norris to join him on the outside. Bittica spent his time as a bit of a loner before his pal Norris got there. But he did make friends with local teenagers in town. He lived in a motel and always had marijuana and alcohol

and he used this to lure the kids in. He was clearly figuring out what worked to win the trust of teenage girls. And it would also have been no doubt incredibly exciting for him to fantasise as he waited for Norris. And he didn't have to wait very long. Norris was released the following year on the 15th of January 1979. He moved in with his mother and got a job as an electrician. But he wasn't keen on rehabilitation and almost immediately he and Bittica started meeting up to plan their attacks.

What's particularly interesting about these two is that unlike a lot of serial killers, they planned everything in very specific detail. They'd worked it all out, from how they were going to get their victims, to the transportation they would need, the location of the killings and where and how they were disposed of the bodies. It's all part of the fantasy. I think like some people when they're in prison think about like the life they're going to build and the jobs they're going to get, etc, etc. These guys have been planning this for months. Because it's very similar again to like say like, say, an Ed Kemper,

where they've ended up in prison so many times. And I think to some extent, it became like habitual for Bittica. But Norris was just too stupid or too like incapable of covering up his crimes or doing them covertly. So I think Bittica was like, right, if we're going to do this,

if I'm going to step it up from like petty shit to rape and torture and murder, we're going to get this fucking right because I'm going to really enjoy this and I don't want to end up back in prison. And so I think that it's part of the fantasy, but I think it's also like a massive effort because they just don't want to get caught. So according to Norris, it was Bittica who decided that they needed a mobile torture and killing machine. So in February 1979, they bought a 1977 GMC cargo van that Lawrence Bittiker nicknamed Murder Mac. Fuck off. Try harder, do better.

Or is it be better? I can't remember my own fucking catchphrase. Try harder, be better. Like, murder, like, try hard, like, come on. Fuck off. He's such a prick. She says Try hard to be better. Like, murder Mac. Like, try hard. Like, come on. Fuck off. He's such a prick. She says struggling to do better. I can't think of a better name.

But whatever. We're obviously not going to call it murder Mac. We'll fucking call it the, I don't know, the nonce wagon. I don't know. Whatever it was. Whatever we're going to call it. The van was silver.

It had no windows on the side, making it absolutely ideal for what their nefarious purposes were. And it also had a large sliding passenger door, making it perfect for them to grab their victims. The pair also fitted out the back of the van with a makeshift bed, coolers for cold drinks, and of course, the notorious toolbox. With their van in place, the planning continued. And for the next few months, until June 1979, Roy Norris and Lawrence Bittica drove up and down the Pacific Coast Highway, practicing how to pick up teenage girls. They would park up by beaches, talk to girls, flirt with them, and even

photograph them. They even picked up some of these girls, but they always let them go. Norris claimed that they did this numerous times. It was all in an attempt to make sure that everything was perfect. The next part of their plan was to find a good disposal site and it was in April of that year that they discovered a remote fire road on the San Gabriel Mountains. It would be the perfect place to kill their victims and dispose of the bodies, not only because it was completely isolated but because there were a number of wild animals out there too. Bittica was counting on the pumas and the coyotes to make the body disposal even easier. After all the fun of planning, it was time for their first kill. And on the 24th of June

1979, they came across their first victim, Lucinda Lynn Schaefer. Everyone called her Cindy, and Cindy was just 16. That day at 7.46pm, she'd just left a church meeting at St Andrew's Presbyterian Church, where Bittica and Norris spotted her. She was walking home when the men who'd spent the day drinking and smoking weed pulled up alongside her. They offered Cindy some weed and a ride home. She declined, but they weren't about to give up.

And what they did next, given that it was only 7.30ish in June in California, of all places, so it's not going to be dark, is it? It's going to be very light outside. This is a very high-risk move. They drove ahead of Cindy a little bit, and Norris got out of the van. Bittica stopped the van, and as Cindy was once again parallel with the vehicle, Bittica opened the sliding door, and Norris grabbed the teenager and dragged her inside the van.

As soon as Cindy was in the van, they turned the radio up to full volume, drowning out her screaming. They bound and gagged her with duct tape and then they made their way to the mountains. And although up until this point the couple had shared everything, they now became a bit more coy. Bittica told Norris to go for a walk for an hour or so so that he could rape Cindy

alone. Norris did as he was asked and then when he returned Bittica went off and Norris raped Cindy. Like this they spent all night swapping over and over while the other one went off. Cindy had apparently according to Norris asked if they were going to kill her and she begged for time to pray if they were. Norris admitted to police that they had told her they weren't going to kill her but of course they did and he also said that they didn't give her any time to pray. Apparently Norris tried to strangle Cindy first with his bare hands as Bittica held her up but he couldn't finish it off. He said he ran off and threw up so Bittica took a coat hanger and twisted it around Cindy's neck, using a pair of pliers from their toolbox to tighten it until the young girl died.

They then wrapped her body in a plastic shower curtain and threw it over a steep canyon. The next victim that Norris admitted to was Andrea Joy Hall. Andrea was 18. She'd been hitchhiking along the Pacific Coast Highway, and on the 8th of July, 1979, just two weeks after Cindy's death, Norris and Bittica saw her standing on the side of the road. But they weren't fast enough, and Andrea was actually picked up by another vehicle, but they weren't about to let her go.

Just like Cindy, Andrea was too perfect. So they followed the vehicle and waited until Andrea got out, and when she did, they pounced. This time, Norris hid and Bittica pulled up alongside Andrea. He asked her if she wanted a cold soft drink from his cooler. It was a hot day and Andrea said yes. But as Bittica opened the door to pass her the can, Norris jumped out and grabbed her and dragged her into the van.

They bound and gagged Andrea with tape, and again they drove to the mountains. Just like Cindy, they took it in turns to rape Andrea over and over again, this time perhaps growing in confidence or wanting to keep trophies so he could relive his sick adventures. Bittica forced Andrea to pose for sexually explicit pictures with him. When this was going down, Norris said that he was off buying alcohol and that when he came back, Bittica was alone. Norris said that when he returned and asked where Andrea was, he claimed that Bittica told him that he had said to Andrea

to give him as many reasons as she could think of to allow her to live. Again, this is when we start to see the real sadism come out in Bittica, like taunting these girls on top of everything else. And apparently he said to Norris that when Andrea was done telling him all of the reasons that she should be allowed to live, he had thrust an ice pick through Andrea's ear and into her brain. Bittica said that he then flipped her body over and plunged the ice pick through her other ear, this time stamping on it until the handle broke off. Horrifically, Andrea was still alive at this point. So Bittica said that he strangled her and threw Andrea's body off a cliff.

Now it seems, based on Norris' story, that after this murder, the men needed to up their game to get the same rush. Again, this is typical serial killer stuff that we see all the time. Throughout this, with every kill, the violence escalates. And also here, I think they are like, we want more of a challenge, quote unquote. So on the 3rd of September when they spotted Jackie Gilliam and Leah Lamp they decided that they were going to take both of them. Jackie was 15 and Leah was just 13 years old. They were both sat at a bus stop near Hermosa Beach. Bitteker and Norris pulled

up and offered them a lift. The girls accepted and when the men offered them weed once in the van again they accepted. And I think obviously that feels like quite crazy now, like a 15 and a 13 year old. I don't know, like it's the 70s, it's the decade of rebellion. I feel like it possibly wouldn't have been that out of the ordinary. No, I don't think so. But even after the weed, the girls quickly realised that the van wasn't heading to where they had asked the men to drive them to. They were driving deep into the mountains. 13 year old Leah knew that something was wrong, so she jumped up and tried to open the door.

At this point, Norris smashed her over the head with a bag of lead weights. As Leah lay unconscious, Norris bound and gagged a screaming Jackie. But as soon as he was doing this, Leah woke up and actually managed to open the van door and get out. Norris grabbed her and tried to pull her back in, but Leah was fighting like mad. It was a mess and Bittica panicked. Someone might see them, so he pulled over.

He jumped in the back and punched Jackie hard in the face. And together, Norris and Bittica managed to get the two girls back in the van and tied up. Jackie and Leah, just 15 and 13, remember, fought like hell, but they didn't stand a chance. Eventually, Bittica and Norris got Leah and Jackie to the isolated mountains, and unlike with the other victims, they kept them alive and captive for nearly two days. During this time, they repeatedly sexually and physically

assaulted the girls, taking it in turns to sleep. At one point during these two days, Bittica took Leah off to take pictures with him, and when he got back, he made Norris take pictures with Jackie. I think that this is twofold for Bittica. I think that one is forcing Norris to take these pictures with this girl is like a power trip for him. But I also think he's doing it as collateral. Bittica is not stupid. And I think he's thinking, if this guy turns on me, I want evidence on him as well. So with each kill, like we said, the men became more and more depraved. And what happened to Leah and Jackie is honestly some of the worst stuff I've come across. During one of the times that Bittica raped Jackie, he stabbed her in the breast with an ice pick from the toolbox.

And then horrifically, he ripped off one of her nipples with the pliers. All the while, he forced a terrified 13-year-old Leah to watch. Norris told the police that he had tried to stop Bittica killing Leah and Jackie, saying that they had cooperated so they should just let them go. But he said that Bittica refused and took the ice pick and drove it into Jackie's ear and then strangled her to death. Again, Leah was watching all of this. Norris said that when she started screaming from a fear I can't even imagine, he hit Leah over the head with a hammer and then Bittica strangled her. Again, just like with Cindy and Andrea, they dumped the girls' bodies in the mountains.

After this double killing, Norris and Bittica were buzzing. And obviously, this is when they attacked Shirley Sanders, the girl who escaped and reported them for rape. When Shirley had escaped, it spooked them, so they laid low for a month, but they got right back onto it on Halloween night when they picked up Lynette Ledford. And as we can see, with each kill, the brutality got more and more severe, and their final victim, Lynette, was going to be the worst. Once they had picked up Lynette from the petrol station,

they drove her to a secluded side road and got a knife out. They tied her arms and legs and gagged her. This time, Bittica got in the back with Lynette while Norris drove them to the mountains. As soon as they arrived, Bittica began torturing Lynette. On the tape, you can hear him slapping and beating the still-blindfolded teenager, asking her, what's the matter? Don't you like to scream he was hitting lynette with a hammer and mocking her as she cried bittica then raped lynette inserting the pliers into her vagina and rectum the damage she caused to her body was unimaginable norris then swapped with bittica and on the tape you can hear him demanding that lynette scream she doesn't the fact that

lynette isn't screaming and sobbing for him, as she had done for Bittica, enrages Norris. So he grabbed a sledgehammer and smashed Lynette's elbow. When she screamed, Norris continued and struck her elbow 25 times. This torture and abuse went on for over two hours before Norris finally strangled Lynette to death using a coat hanger and pliers. When the police found her the next morning, the garrotte around her finally strangled Lynette to death using a coat hanger and pliers. When the police found her the next morning, the garrote around her neck had reduced Lynette's throat to the size of a silver dollar. At first, Norris told the police that he and Bittica had both killed Lynette, but the tape proved that it was actually Norris. So now he claimed that he had

killed Lynette because Bittica had made him. He said that Bittica had told him that he had had to kill all the other girls so Norris needed to kill Lynette. It was only fair. Now, the important thing is, like we said, all of the story, everything that we know about what happens comes from Norris' version of events. And he does get caught in a few lies like this. And it does make you wonder how truthful he's being about other things.

I think we have to remember that his game plan here is to pin as much of it on Bittica as he possibly could. Yeah, like, and also just like, fuck you. Like, it's not a chore for you killing these girls. This is exactly what you wanted to do. I think it's quite recognisable that he's trying to pin as much as he can on not himself. Precisely. And I think that the police go along with it to some extent because Bittica isn't speaking at all. He completely refuses to engage with them. And Norris just fucking spills everything. So they're like, we've got him anyway.

We need him to get Bittica. So I think that's why they go along with it. But Norris had more than just his stories, as questionable as they were, because he also knew where the bodies were buried, literally. So as part of the plea deal that Norris wanted, he agreed to show investigators where the other four victims were. So they all drove out to the San Gabriel Mountains to have a look. But the important thing to note is that this place is fucking huge. And just as Bitteker had hoped, it seemed that animals had scattered the remains.

And the other thing is that Norris says that he wasn't always there when Bittica disposed of the bodies. And he also says, and this is probably true, that usually when they buried the bodies, it was dark. So he couldn't exactly remember where they were. So the whole thing is just a fucking mess. They searched for days with Norris' help and they just didn't find anything. Until suddenly on the 9th of February 1980, when the police stumbled onto a random trail of bones. And it just so happened that the remains were that of Leah Lamp. And they were able to match her with her dental records. Harrowingly, when they found Leah's skull, it had several indentations on it from the hammer attack that Norris had

confessed to. Soon after this discovery, detectives found another skull. This one had an ice pick embedded in the bone of the ear canal. It turned out to be 15-year-old Jackie. The search continued for a few weeks after this, but they didn't find any other bodies. The problem was that this is just open wilderness. It's a huge area to search and animals are moving shit around all the time. And also Norris hadn't always been involved with the body disposal so he wasn't totally sure where Andrea or Cindy were. It's a shit situation for the prosecution because of course they want to try the men for all five murders but without the bodies it's going to be difficult for them to show for certain that Cindy and Andrea were definitely

dead and that Norris and Bittica had killed them. But the mountains weren't giving anything else up, so they had to push on and hope that they had enough with the three bodies of Leah, Jackie and Lynette, plus Norris's confessions, the van, the toolbox and the infamous tape. Norris's legal proceedings were over pretty quickly, which is obviously exactly what he had orchestrated this whole situation to achieve. On the 18th of March 1980, he pleaded guilty to four counts of first-degree murder, one count of second-degree murder, one count of robbery, and two counts of rape. He was sentenced to life with the possibility of parole after 30 years, which seems mad. Despite being assessed and determined

to be, quote, an extreme sociopath whose depraved, grotesque pattern of behaviour was beyond rehabilitation. So after this, next was the big one, taking down Lawrence Bittica. Bittica refused to plead guilty, and so the trial kicked off on the 19th of January 1981. And the prosecution's star witness was, of course, Roy Norris. But they also had other witnesses, including Bittica's 17-year-old female neighbour, who testified that he had shown her pictures of the dead and missing girls, and told her, quote, Now, remember that the police had also found 500 photos in Bittica's apartment.

Well, in amongst those pictures were the images of Andrea, Leah and Jackie. But Bittica took the stand and claimed that he knew nothing of Cindy Schaefer and that there was a simple explanation for why he had images of the girls who had been murdered in his possession. And remember, coming back to the problem was they couldn't even prove that Andrea was definitely dead because they never found her body. So they're just saying she's just run away. And Bittica says that basically the reason he had pictures of Andrea, Leah and Jackie was because he had a deal with them for sex and they would get together they would have sex and he would get pictures.

Okay sure Leah was 13 Jackie was 15. How does he think that this is a good explanation? He basically says I didn't know how old they were and he goes off in court talking about how like curvaceous Jackie and Leah were and how wide their hips were and how was he to know that they were so he's honestly he's intelligent but he has no common sense he has no idea how this is playing to a jury because he fundamentally lacks the ability to gauge other people's emotions I think oh and he also claimed that if they were dead because obviously we can prove Leah and Jackie are because they found their fucking bodies, he said that he does know Roy. They were mates. They used to take these girls up to the mountains so that he could get pictures with them.

And he also claimed that during these trips, Norris would often disappear into the mountains with these girls and then come back alone. And he said when he would ask them where the girls were, that Norris would just tell him that he had told them to find their own way home. So Bittica pleads complete ignorance. He's saying, I would just go up to the mountains with these girls for some photos. Then Norris was the one who would disappear with them and then I'd never see them again. So he must have killed them. Okay. To combat this absolute joke of a testimony, the prosecution brought out the tape. Before

Stephen Kaye played it, he told the jury, quote, For those of you who don't know what hell is, this tape is about to show you. When the audio was heard in court, the court artist got up and ran out. Members of the jury ran out crying. People were horrified by what they were hearing. Norris testified that Bittica loved that tape and that he would play it on repeat as they drove around looking for girls. But the most important thing that the jury needed to hear was that on the tape, you could hear Bittica's voice

loud and clear, relishing in the torture. But Bittica had to come back for this too. He claimed that it was just quote, pillow talk and foreplay.

And I just almost mini-sicked reading that. He's so stupid. Again, he just says I was paying him for sex and one of the things I wanted them to do was pretend to scream and be scared.

So Oscar winning performance then is what he's asking. Precisely. From a 16 year old girl. Yep. Nailed it. So Bittica said that Lynette was just playing along. They were just having fun and no one was torturing her. And he finished by saying that when he left her, Lynette was

with Norris and well and truly alive. Bittica's entire defence was about trying to paint Norris as the actual offender, and for this, his defence attorney used their previous records. Norris had a long list of sexual offences, but Bitteker didn't have any such thing. After three weeks, Bitteker's trial finally wrapped up. Stephen Kaye closed up by saying that he was sad and sorry that he could only ask for the death penalty, and not for the same torture that Bittica had inflicted on those girls.

And during his closing remarks, Peter Kay held up a picture of each girl to the jury whilst describing what Bittica had done to them. The defence lashed back by saying that Kay and the prosecution were obsessed with gore and described the entire trial as, quote, bloodlust, which is just fucking outrageous. Their secondary argument was that there was inadequate evidence and that he's being stitched up by Norris. The jury took three days to deliberate and returned with a verdict finding Lawrence Bittica guilty on all five counts of first-degree murder, five charges of kidnapping, nine charges of rape, one charge

of sodomy, two charges of forced oral copulation, one charge of conspiracy to commit first-degree murder, and three charges of the unlawful possession of a firearm, and Bitteker was sentenced to death. Bitteker spent the next few decades of his life on death row constantly appealing his conviction. At first, he tried to appeal his case on technicalities, and when this failed, he moved his efforts on just appealing against the death penalty. He called what was being done to him, with no lack of irony, I thought, cruel and unusual. Bitteker never did enter the execution room. He died last year in December 2019 of natural causes at the age of 79. And as for Norris, don't worry, he never did make parole

and he too, thankfully, died in prison in February In February of this year 2020 at the age of 72. There's always a lot to talk about with this case when we consider who was really the ringleader but I'm not sure it matters that much anymore. Neither one of them got out and they're both dead now. But it is worth noting that when all of this went to trial a lot of argument was based on the idea that Norris was completely stupid and dimwitted. But when he and Bittica were in prison, Norris was dealing drugs, and that is not an easy thing to do, especially when you consider he was dealing with gang members for his distribution and supply. So I don't think Norris was quite as dumb as he was made out to be. But it doesn't matter, really, because he turned on Bittica.

They both went down. So let's finish this episode with a few more sad tidbits shall we? Now remember those 500 Polaroids that the police found in Bittica's place? Well the police wanted to know if they were looking at more victims because Norris admits to five murders they find the three bodies there's 500 pictures of him with other women and girls so they try their best to kind of try and trace every girl in the images, but they just couldn't do it. It was the 70s and the 80s.

Nothing was computerized. Like everything would have been done manually. Would have been an absolute fucking nightmare. But surprisingly, I thought, not because there's this many missing, but just that they managed to find this many at all. The police did find the 19 of the girls in the photos were reported missing. And while there is, of course, no evidence of them having been murdered by Norris and Bittica, the very fact that Bittica had Polaroid pictures with them is enough to send a chill down your spine.

Feels like a little bit too much of a coincidence, doesn't it? Doesn't it just? And I've got one more sad fact, if we can all handle it. I'm going to have to have a sit-down shower after this. Oh yeah, that's definitely it. So Paul Bynum, the detective and lead investigator on this case from Hermosa Beach remember the guy who like actually believed Jackson when he came in because he knew about Shirley Sanders. Well after the trial Paul had a complete breakdown due to the brutality of what Norris and Bittica had done and in December 1987 Paul Bynum killed himself at the age of just 39,

and he left a 10-page suicide note in which he specifically stated being haunted by the murders of Bittica and Norris and his fear that they would one day be released. Which is just really tragic, I thought. Yeah, that is not good news. No, not good news at all. Horrific.

But yeah, that is the case of the toolbox killers roy norris and lawrence bittica it's the heavy one like we said we'll leave the link below to the book that is out there on this case as well as a couple of documentaries we found and everything else that we sort of looked at it's a lot but yeah i hope you're still there i hope you found it interesting if you need to sort of relax, come hang out with us under the duvet now where we're going to talk about maybe some haunted shit. Who knows? I actually have got a very funny story for what I thought was something creepy happening, but it was just something hilarious. And I'll save that for under the duvet. Oh, my favorite kind. I know.

Save it for when we're in the haunted cottage in the middle of nowhere and then the lights will go off and then maybe we'll die. Who knows? And then I in the middle of nowhere and then the lights will go off and then maybe we'll die who knows and then i'll deliver the punch line and then the lights will come back on because it was the most ridiculous thing that's actually ever happened but anyway so if you guys want to do that check out patreon.com red handed otherwise you can follow us on all the social medias at red handed the pod like hannah said we are actually off for a week not off for the show don't worry you'll still get your content we're actually leaving our houses for a week to go stay in an Airbnb to get some very specific work done.

If possibly haunted, we don't know, but we'll definitely be posting about it on the social media, so that's why you should follow us. And we do know that there's a housekeeper there and her name is Olga, so it sounds fucking haunted to me. It's going to be fucking all sorts of shit going down. So yeah, come check that out. Other than that, here are some lovely people

who have supported us on Patreon that we need to say thank you to. So thank you very much. Taylor Stephens, Eleanor Cardivan, Lucy Morris, Jessica Peters, Lucy Ailman,

Sophie Hall, Taylor Vaughan, Kate Loudon, Rebecca Starkis, Brooke Howland, Genevieve Bilson, Elise, Ella Cece, Katie Campbell, Stacey Farley, David, Kim Burrows, Lisa Chase, Rachel Urobelis, Leela Gronsness,

Samantha Morven-Finlay, Nicole, Kyra, Hannah Edwards, A.B., Charlotte Fisher, Jen Summers, Thank you. You're just making this up now, guys. Vicks Collins Collins Jenny McGarry Lauren Strassner-Kutch I just got the most overwhelming feeling of hunger. Mackenzie Dean Rock V Trisha Chelsea Harrington-Sady

Twyla Willie Becca Mack Stacey Nettles Jackie Pallard Isyada L Megan Aguila I recognise your name, Megan. I think. Yeah.

Spelled like Knototch, but who knows. Megan Wykwick. Abigail Bate. Elisa Nikita. Kristen Laura. Amy Evans. Evelina Anies Nivala. Becca Laura. Corinne Payle.

And Joanne Ball, thank you very much for supporting the show. And I can't quite believe I've got through this. Absolutely. But we've done it. I've got through this. Absolutely. But we've done it. No, you did it. You did excellently. Well done, Hannah. And well done to you guys for getting through it too.

We'll see you next week. Goodbye. Bye. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Combs. Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party, so. Yeah, that's what's up. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today,

I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution. I was f***ed up. I hit rock bottom, but I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real.

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