RedHanded - Episode 174 - Keli Lane: What Happened to Baby Tegan? Pt 2

Episode Date: November 19, 2020

In this week’s episode the girls delve into the aftermath of John Borovnik's discovery, the police investigation that followed, and the subsequent trial that saw Keli Lane charged with murder -  more than 13 years after her baby vanished. But even after all this, major questions around what drove Keli's behaviour, and of course what happened to baby Tegan, still remain... Merch: www.redhandedshop.com Sources and recommendations: Documentaries: Exposed: The Case of Keli Lane (Amazon Prime or Netflix - depending on region) Podcast: Problem Child    See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Saruti. I'm Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed. Before we kick off today,

very quick announcement about some Patreon stuff that you all might be interested in. Due to very popular demand, because you guys might know that we've been doing our Red Herring live streams, which if you don't know, are when we take a, I don't know, how do you say, like a mysterious case that is yet to be resolved. We do a live stream where we go through the case. We've done Maddie McCann so far, and we've also done the case of Susan Powell. And we also did the Panama Girls last month. And this month, we're going to be doing the case of Maura Murray. And quite a few of you have said, you know, I would love to be able to take part and just pay a one-off because it's currently only available to our highest tier on Patreon, which is $20 and up. So from this month, we are going to be doing that. So if you'd like to sign up, this month's live stream, Red Herring, is going to be going out on the 24th of November at 7pm GMT.

So if you want to sign up for that, you can do so. The link is in the episode description below. Go check it out. Go sign up. It's quite fun. If you're a $20 and up patron, don't worry, you will still be able to access it. The information for you is on Patreon. And $10 and up patrons, you will still get the recording of the live stream as usual the following day. So yeah, other Patreon stuff. If you want to listen to under the duvet immediately after this to put your brains on ice following what is going to be another very confusing episode that is the part two of kelly lane case then come hang out with us there because

that's fun too yep i'll talk about abortion doping which is something i read about this morning but i'm not putting that in this episode purely to tempt you over to under the duvet, to be honest. Oh, well, I'm tempted. I can't wait. Right. Okay, great. Just in case anyone hadn't had enough of pregnancies and abortions. We're really just longing it out for as long as we possibly can. Just keep it coming. Just keep it coming. So yeah, if all that sounds good, you know what to do. So with that, Hannah, do you want to give us a quick rundown of what we talked about last week in the Kelly Lane part one? I would love to. So this is a two-parter. We haven't done a two-parter in a while.

I know you're not used to them, but, you know, change is important. We all need to get used to it. So a rundown. Last week, we met Kelly Lane, who had five pregnancies before she was 21. Some she terminated, some she adopted out. But one, baby Tegan, we don't know where baby Tegan is. And this week we are going to find out, kind of probably, but also not. We're just going to find out more about Kelly.

Yeah, we're just going to have a good old route around in the trial, in what happens, and also the psychology of what Kelly Lane was doing. Very quickly, though, before we do kick off with part two, a few of you were asking about the Problem Child podcast, where that is, why that is, how that is, how you get your hands on it. I think there were some litigious issues. So let's hope that doesn't happen to us and that you're still actually listening to this. But I think they got into some, maybe some difficulties with Kelly Lane's family. And that's why I think they're not available on Apple Podcast. But you can listen to the Problem Child podcast on Spotify and also, I believe, through their own website.

Just Google it. It's very easy to find. And also Exposed, the case of Kelly Lane, is on Netflix in Australia. You can also watch it if you have a VPN and just pretend that you're in Sydney, Melbourne, or I don't know, Perth. Those are the only three cities I can think of. Otherwise, it is on Amazon Prime. Only those places, though. If you live in Canberra, you're fucked.

No, that's it. Yeah. Oh, everyone always forgets Canberra. And that's like their big, that's like the Washington DC there, isn't it? It's the capital. Yeah, I know. It's like the big deal., isn't it? It's the capital. Yeah, I know. It's like the big deal. And everyone's just like, whatever.

So anyway, that's all the housekeeping we need to do. So let's fucking kick off with this shit. So we left off last week with the social worker, John Barovnik, discovering that Kelly Lane had adopted out a baby girl who we named Claire in 1995. If you remember, Claire was her first ever live birth. So it's the third pregnancy, first one she actually delivers and carries to term. And then John also found out that Kelly had presented at Ryde Hospital in Sydney the following year, so in 1996, and again now she was 38 weeks pregnant.

And Ryde Hospital told John that Kelly didn't actually have that baby there because, if you remember, Kelly came in twice when she was pregnant with Tegan in 1996 asking to be induced because she had that wedding to get to. But Ride Hospital turned her away and she ended up going to a different hospital to deliver. That meant that although Ride could confirm to John that in 1996 Kelly had been very pregnant and on the cusp of giving birth, they couldn't confirm that that pregnancy had definitely led to a live birth or what happened to that baby after. So what sparked the hospital and John's interest about this specific incident was that when Kelly had turned up at Wright asking to be induced, she claimed that this was her first baby.

But John knew that this wasn't the case because he knew that she'd already had a baby, Claire, in 1995 and given her up for adoption. So this second baby, the one that was born in 1996, according to Doc's records, had never been adopted. So either that baby must have died and so there should be a death certificate or that baby must still be with Kelly. Those are like the only real options. So John confronted Kelly and much to his surprise, although she had told Ride Hospital that her last baby was just at home,

she now told John that she had never even had a baby in 1996. But soon she realised this was going to be a very tough lie to maintain given that Ride Hospital had seen her twice in 96, in the very late stages of pregnancy. She eventually told John that yes, she had had a baby girl called Tegan in September 1996. And she told John that she'd given Tegan away to a family who lived in Perth. She said that she'd met this family while she was pregnant. They had been very supportive and helped her a lot. She knew she didn't want the baby, so she gave it to the family, knowing that they were good people. But she added that she didn't keep in contact with the family and couldn't

offer any information about them quite conveniently. This is story number one that Kelly tells regarding the whereabouts of baby Tegan. And it obviously is full of holes, so it wasn't enough to placate John. So in November 1999, three years after baby Tegan vanished, John Borovnik formally reported her, Tegan Lane, as a missing person to the police. But it would be a very long time

before the police would do anything about it. It feels odd to talk about a baby as a missing person because they don't really feel like a personality, do they? Yeah, you're totally right. And I think that was what I was trying to get out with the first line of last week's episode, which is, it's technically a person that no one else has ever, or obviously not even technically, really, no one else has ever met. But no one else has even had the opportunity to notice that Tegan was missing. And I think that's one of the saddest things about this case is that John Borovnik says in an interview he does with like the Sydney Herald or Bugle or something. And he's like, the reason that this case got to me so much was the heartbreaking fact that this baby had been born and no one had ever even noticed that she was gone.

And John Brovnik actually now has a tattoo of Tegan's name on his chest because he's so like attached to this case. Wow. And I think it's just really sad. It's really sad. The whole thing. But I was just thinking as you were saying it i wrote down yes that this is kelly's first story this is story number one that kelly tells with regards to where tegan is but actually she tells the hospital because she comes in to deliver this third baby and they're like oh

you were here in 1996 and you were super pregnant how's that baby and she's like oh yeah she's just at home she's fucking not because that's tegan so actually this is story number two because then she tells john oh no i gave that baby away she's just lying to everybody all the fucking time and what's really interesting about kelly is she's like a compulsive liar because she doesn't need to be giving away all of this information if she hadn't come into ride hospital and said this is my first pregnancy there wouldn't necessarily have been any eyebrows raised when john had found out that she had another baby. So she catches herself in this web.

It's a web of her own making. So when John first reported baby Teagan is missing the local Manly Police Department didn't seem to have much appetite for this case. And it is alleged now that the detective in charge at the time a guy named Matt Keogh was actually mates with with Kelly's dad, who, if you remember, was a police officer who worked at the same station as Matt Keogh until he retired. But it does seem that bad police work by manly police back then doesn't seem to have been out of the norm.

So, with no police investigation taking shape, for Kelly at least, life carried on as usual. And in August 2000, Kelly Lane, now in a long-term relationship, fell pregnant again and got engaged. And during this pregnancy, it's interesting to note that Kelly behaved very differently to her previous five secret pregnancies. She went to every single doctor's appointment, she did all of the tests, and she totally changed her lifestyle for the better. So like no more fucking keg on legs drinking sessions while she's pregnant with this baby. But Kelly wasn't out of the woods just yet. And finally, in February 2001, over a year after John Borovnik had reported his concerns to them, the Manly Police Department brought Kelly

Lane in to be interviewed for the very first time. When asked about Teagan, Kelly now told the police yet again an entirely different story to the one she had told John Borovnik two years prior and the one that she told the Ride Hospital staff. Now she said that she'd given her baby to the biological father, a man she called Andrew Morris. Kelly said that she and Andrew had had a very brief affair but that he had a girlfriend the whole time and when Kelly had discovered she was pregnant at first Andrew was angry. Kelly claimed that Andrew had called her a slut and said that he thought that she was trying to trap him. So Kelly suggested that Andrew just keep the baby himself which makes no sense and apparently Andrew's girlfriend whose name is inverted commas Mel,

really wanted a baby. So they both agreed that even though Andrew had been having an affair with Kelly, that they would just take Kelly's baby and raise it as their own. I mean, I just don't believe it. I know everyone feels differently about things, but like, if someone has, if a boy has upset me I cannot have anything that reminds me even remotely of them in my vicinity ever again because I just can't stand to look at it let alone a living child yeah here's a baby that you can have and raise and look

at and like you know it's like you said obviously some people may be able to get past that but the thing that I find very difficult to understand is that Andrew is apparently furious at Kelly, right? He's angry, he's livid. And then she's like, well, why don't you just take the baby? And he's like, oh, well, why didn't you just say? In that case, everything's fine. Because you know that girlfriend I've got at home,

she actually really wants one of these. And I just find it really hard to understand. Firstly, the whole thing about this Mel character just being happy to raise a baby that her boyfriend had had with another woman while he was cheating on her but like maybe I could believe it if they were a couple in like their late 30s or 40s maybe but Kelly describes Andrew as being her age so in their early 20s I find that very very hard to believe I also think it seems weird that Kelly even told Andrew because she says that she just has a brief fling with this guy,

like a brief affair that lasts a few months with this guy. And we know from previous experiences with Kelly that apart from Aaron Tyak, her very first boyfriend she got pregnant with, Kelly never tells anybody. So why is she telling Andrew? Good point. I find that quite strange. And I guess you could say that maybe we know that Andrew wasn't a local, he wasn't a local manly guy like the other guys were. So maybe Kelly felt that he wasn't as

consequential if she told him the truth because he wouldn't be like on the scene to out her. I don't know. But I think the other point worth mentioning here also is that if you watch any of these police interviews if you watch sort of any press conferences with her I think a thing that I definitely felt is that she often tries to make herself the victim and I'm not saying that she isn't a victim in some ways at all but all this kind of like oh he called me a slut etc when you watch the police interview with her she seems to be acting in my opinion way more disproportionately upset about that about someone she had a briefling with years and years ago calling her a slut than the fact that she has no idea where her baby

daughter is or her daughter tegan is like i find that quite a weird thing and also if you did have this guy who you had a briefling with with, didn't know anything about him, he blows up at you, calls you a slut, says all these names, and then you're just going to give your baby to him. That seems quite irrational, though I will accept that Kelly is a very irrational person. So, you know, maybe it's wrong to wonder

why she does these things. And another thing that Kelly seems more upset about than the fact her daughter is missing, presumed dead, and that she is being considered the main suspect suspect is that the police might tell her parents. That's the thing that scares her the most, not going to prison, not being convicted of murder, but that someone might tell her mum and dad. She is a fully grown woman with a fiancé and a baby. I do kind of get it though. I think if I was being interviewed as the main subject in a murder, the only thing going

through my head is what the fuck am I going to tell my mom? That is literally the only thing I would be thinking. Well, I'm glad that you can bring that insight to this then, Hannah, because it is, it's really quite strange when you watch the interview. She is just like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. I know you want to ask me about this baby that's missing. We'll get to that. But are you going to tell my parents, though? Like, that is her overwhelming fear throughout the entire police interview, is that. And I'm like, again, it's just so, like, disproportionate and so unbalanced, her reaction to these things. It's very odd.

True. But, you know, I'm 30. I'm older than her. I get it. And now I'm at home. I'm older than her. I get it. And now I'm at home. I'm at my mom's house for lockdown. And I now get stickers when I complete the work I'm supposed to do that day. I've got dinosaur stickers.

Like chores? Or just like your work work? No, like my red-handed work. I tell my mom, I'm like, oh, I have to write this thing today. And if I do it, I get a sticker. You give them to yourself or your mom gives them to you? No, my mom gives them. My mom is the sticker keeper. Otherwise, I just give them to yourself or your mum gives them to you no my mum gives my mum is the sticker keeper otherwise I just give them to myself that's adorable I want someone to come here

and give me stickers fuck it out so I've ordered because I've ordered a new laptop I've got loads of new laptop stickers coming today so those are they're like because my mum's a nurse so she has stickers anyway that she gives to babies that she injects with antibodies. So she brings them home for her 30 year old completely vaccinated daughter. That's amazing. That's so great. I love it. Thank you, Karen, for bringing that to all of us. So yeah, Kelly is, like I would be, very concerned about who was going to say what to her mum and dad. And you do kind of feel a bit sorry for her. But then you quite quickly remember that she's possibly killed a two day old baby, her baby to save herself the embarrassment and drama of telling her parents. It is hard. As much as I do kind of understand

that feeling. I also wouldn't kill a two day old baby. No, that is I am glad to hear that, Hannah. I am glad to hear that. But I think it's like the specific phraseology as well that she uses in it. It's so like childlike almost or just so like irrational. So like something she says in the interview that I thought was really weird. She says the usual things of like, are you going to tell my mom? Are you going to tell my dad? If this gets out, everyone's going to know. Okay, fine. Those are reasonable fears to have. There's one line that she says that really stood out where she says, and my mum and dad, they aren't going to want to be anywhere near me, are they? It's such a weird statement. I don't know. It was weird. It felt weird to me. After this interview, for some reason, the police let Kelly go and seemed to give up on the case. And in April 2001, Kelly had a baby girl

and hoping that the investigation would just go away, which is what she seems to do with quite a lot of her problems, Kelly tried to get on with her life. The police investigation went nowhere for 17 months. So she really must have thought that she was out of the woods. Oh, yeah. Then a new detective, Detective Gort, took over the case. Gort wasn't from Manly, and I don't think he had the same loyalties to the Lane family that perhaps previous investigators might have. And so he brought Kelly in for questioning in May 2003. By this point, Teagan, if she is still alive somewhere, would have been seven years old.

That's how fucking long it's taken. So this interview is now a very infamous part of this entire case of the Kelly Lane case because it's during this questioning that Kelly started calling Andrew Morris, because remember that's the name she said was the man that she had given Teagan to, but she starts calling him instead Andrew Norris, with an N. So in the interview, you can see that Gort picks up on this immediately. But Kelly Corley just says, oh, that she must have been wrong, she must have made a mistake last time,

and that his name is in fact definitely Andrew Norris. Now, according to Kelly, Andrew was just some random guy that she'd met at the pub in September 1995. They'd got drunk together, gone back to his and well, you know what happened next. After this encounter, Kelly said that they carried on sleeping together for a few months. And when Gort asked Kelly where Andrew had lived back then, because they were definitely going back to his, they weren't like going back to her parents' house, which is where Kelly lived, she said that he lived in a flat in Balmain. At first, though, she really struggled to tell them exactly where this flat was, which, okay, fine. It had been years by this point.

But she's claiming to have slept with this guy, Andrew Morris Norris, for months. And she knew Balmain really well. She went out there all the time. She played water polo there a few times a week. She was there constantly. And she was going back to this guy's house for months. Like, how does she not know where this flat is? I don't get it. Eventually, Kelly managed to give an address. But when the police checked it, according to rental records, no one named Andrew Norris or Andrew Morris had lived there ever. The documentary, which is called Exposed, does point out, though, that by the time the police got to the records,

all rental records from before December 1995 had been destroyed. So it's possible that Andrew Morris slash Norris could have left by then and therefore not shown up on the remaining records. I also think that, like, rental properties, you can get away with so much shit. Like people live in my house with no tenancy agreement. People pay in cash. You know, it's very possible.

Like obviously there should be records, but there might not. Not that I believe her. It's just an option. No, no, that's totally true. And actually in the documentary, they do also point out the fact that what happens with flats, come on, subletting is rife. It could have been that he was subletting is rife. It could have been that he was subletting, so his name wouldn't have been on the records anyway. But there is a problem because all of the other tenants who lived in the building,

the police spoke to them and not a single one of them remembered Kelly or an Andrew Morris or an Andrew Norris. So that is pretty damning. This is the thing. And then the documentary does say they didn't speak to everybody and some people had left by the time they got round to interviewing but I'm like how did they not find one person that was just like yeah there was a guy called Andrew who lived here. That seems weird to me. I don't know. The documentary did however find a man who said that he had lived in the flat

that was supposed to be occupied by Andrew Norris slash Andrew Morris and when the police showed this man a picture of Kelly, he did say that he recognised her and that she was always there. But they find him years after all of this happened. And they just show him a picture of a woman who had also been all over Australian television. And he's like, yeah, definitely. I sure did see her all the time.

I mean, I don't know. I don't want to like discredit this guy, but I am like, really? If I saw a person who lives down my road in the wild, like somewhere else, I wouldn't necessarily recognize them as living on my street because I just don't pay attention to people like that. I just don't believe you. No, I'm not convinced. I've lived in the house I've lived in for three years.

I'm not convinced I would recognise my neighbours on the street. Apart from the little boy who lives opposite, I love him. But the rest of them, no idea. Exactly. I just, it's, and this is, she's not even living there. She's just coming and going, he says. So this guy's story is that he used to work on his car at the front of the flat and he would

see Kelly regularly coming and going at night. Come on. I just, for all of the reasons just stated, I just don't think I'm on this guy's side. No, I mean, eyewitness testimony we already know is terrible. Leave alone eyewitness testimony from years and years and years ago. And then again, leave alone eyewitness testimony where the guy said that he just saw her every now and again as she would come to the flat and leave. In the dark. In the dark, while he was doing something else. And the thing that annoyed me in this documentary, because I do think the documentary is worth a watch, but I do feel like there are lots of issues with it. They get very unnecessarily excited about things that can easily be torn

apart like this. I find that weird. So there are also a lot of other weird things that go down during this particular interview between Detective Gort and Kelly. For example, when Kelly is asked if something happened to Tegan and Gort even says, quote, this is your opportunity to tell us, just come clean. Kelly sits there in silence. And she's looking like maybe she's thinking. But she's just sort of sat there completely in silence for one minute, four seconds. Just sat there in silence. And I'm like, that is, that takes some doing.

Imagine being silent for one minute, four seconds after somebody has just said that to you. And after this weird long silence, she just says no. What are you thinking about, Kelly? Which also like just saying, answering the question with are you going to come clean with the word no sort of implies that you're guilty. Just come clean no it implies you've got something you're hiding doesn't it it's not just like I have nothing to come clean about or what do you mean or what are you implying it's just no I'm not gonna do that yeah oh my god you're right I didn't even think

about that I was so caught up in the fucking one minute of silence my god she is this is what I mean there are some real admirable qualities to Kelly in some way. Cause I used to work in an industry where we were always told when you were interviewing people on the phone, that silence is golden. You never ever break that silence when you're asking somebody a question, because that's when they'll crack, they'll crack and they'll tell you something. If you interrupt that silence, you've given them an out. Don't ever do that. Make them feel uncomfortable. Kelly's just like, yeah, all right.

I'm just going to fucking not play your game. At a minute and four seconds, I don't care. She's just silent. It is, honestly, it's something. Then after this, Gort just straight up asks her, did you kill the baby? And Kelly erupts with rage, denying it. And I don't know, her emotions are all over the place in this interview. It's very hard to convey them in this podcast. So even if you don't watch the full documentary, we'll leave some links to clips of the interview off YouTube that you can watch.

And the whole thing, quite honestly, is quite jarring to watch. But one particular exchange that I thought was very telling is the following. So Gort says after Kelly denies killing baby Tegan, quote, I'm going to have to make a lot of inquiries then here. To which Kelly, and I'm like not kidding you, she almost pleads, please don't. That's what she says. Why would you say please don't?

If finding Tegan, who by this point would, like we said, be seven years old, is going to get you off the hook for being accused of murdering a baby, why wouldn't you want all inquiries made? Why wouldn't you want her found? If all you've done is give away your baby to the biological father, then why are you so worried? You haven't done anything illegal, if that's the truth. And I don't know.

The only thing I can say is that, like we've mentioned before, Kelly's main fear is people finding out. So perhaps you could argue that her fear of the secret getting out is overriding all other concerns and she didn't actually kill Katika and she just doesn't want people to find out. I don't know. It's a weird thing to say. I'm pretty sure that at this stage, Detective Gort recognised Kelly's key motivator, which is, of course, secrecy. And so he got a total media lockdown put on the case, which is probably the best move he could have possibly made. And then he offered Kelly a deal. He offered her immunity for everything except murder, if she just told him what had

happened and where the baby was. He said that even if it was murder, they could build a sympathetic case around postnatal depression or something like that. All Kelly had to do was help them find the baby. But Kelly just said, quote, I'm not going to admit to something I didn't do. And so the media block was lifted and the world discovered Kelly Lane's dark secrets and their many inconsistencies. And, okay, fine, a lot of places would say or point out this as an example,

saying, look, like, oh, she didn't take the deal, so therefore she didn't kill Tegan. But we already know that Kelly is motivated above all else by appearance and reputation and also shame. And we already know that she's an all or nothing kind of person. And I think, you know, when you lie and then you get caught in the lie and then you keep lying and then you lie yourself into a corner and you can't get out.

Oh, yeah. That's what this is. I just I think I've made it quite clear that I think she did it but there's just my opinion no one come for me I think she just can't face the idea of it all unraveling um and people knowing that she's a baby murderer which I mean no one wants that no one wants that but also not everyone does it and uh I don't know I also think that kelly maybe to some degree and this isn't me excusing her i just mean the veracity with which she lies i wonder if some extent she lies so much so compulsively that to some extent she almost believes it herself

and she's almost believes that tegan is alive and well and living somewhere with andrew norris like i just don't understand the situation. And so people being like, why didn't she just take it? Like, we know she doesn't make fucking rational decisions, like, anyway. And if Kelly had any hopes of keeping her secret secret, it was all over, everything comes crashing down. Because on the 20th of June 2005, an inquest into the disappearance and suspected death of Tegan Lane

began before coroner John Abernathy. And the following year, in February 2006, the coroner concluded, quote, I am comfortably satisfied that Tegan Lane is in fact deceased. And then he ordered a homicide investigation to be opened and headed up by detective Sharon Rhodes. In August 2008, so 12 years after Teagan vanished, the police and forensics teams tore through Duncan Gilly's old home. He gets dragged into this so many times. And like, as far as we know,

he never even got Kelly pregnant. And he is constantly in this story. He like had to go to court and everything. So the reason that they tear up Duncan Gilly's old home is because if you guys remember Kelly had lived there during their relationship and investigators suspected that she may have dumped Teagan's body at that house because if you also remember after Kelly left the hospital that day that Teagan was born on her way back to her parents house so that she could go to this wedding with Duncan she'd stopped off at his place to pick up some clothes so they suspected basically during that stop off she maybe dumped Teagan there but

after a very thorough search nothing was ever found but it didn't matter because the case was going ahead anyway and on the 3rd of December 2009, Kelly Lane appeared in court charged with murdering baby Tegan. But it was by no means a slam dunk case. The prosecution was going to have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, without a body or really any physical evidence, that she had killed this baby. And the defence, they were sticking to their story. To Kelly's story, really. That Tegan was with her biological father and that they just didn't know where he was or how to contact him. And if you thought this case was weird, the trial doesn't get any better.

There were some really bizarre things that happened with both the prosecution and the defence. Firstly, the prosecution should never have been able to bring up the four other pregnancies at trial because they aren't actually related to the crime Kelly was being tried for. But they got around this by adding three perjury charges to the murder charge, linked to the times Kelly gave false information on hospital records and adoption papers. So apparently when you like do an adoption or whatever, you have to like sign an affidavit

saying that, you know, you're happy to give this baby up, et cetera, et cetera. And during that time, you know, she gave her contact details, she gave her addresses, et cetera. But as we know, and as we kept hinting at it last week, it becomes very important that Kelly lied on all of these forms about where she lived, who she was, who the baby's dad was, her addresses, her phone numbers, everything. Because now that's what enables the prosecution to add on these perjury charges, which reveals these other pregnancies, which otherwise would have been sealed and the jury never would have heard about them. The judge even told the defence, if you want these charges removed, then say now. But Kelly's defense uh we're like no don't worry about

it mate fine we'll keep him and this was a terrible decision i don't understand why i mean it's a it's a terrible decision for kelly because the prosecution were able to use the other secret pregnancies to paint kelly as a total liar in the eyes of the jury i've got i've nothing to say i literally have no words it's really baffling because in the documentary, for example, they're speaking to the judge and the judge is like, I dropped a lot of hints to the defence saying, you might want to challenge these perjury charges because it's going to be really bad for your client.

And they're like, nah, it's OK. She did do those things. And I'm like, what? The prosecution also spent a lot of time saying that Kelly's Olympic ambitions and her career goals were why she had killed Tegan. But then they also start doing a lot of speculating. They offer various theories as to what happened to Tegan and how Kelly killed and disposed of her, but without offering any evidence to back these theories up. One of the theories they came up with was that Kelly had dumped Tegan's body in the wet cement of the new Olympic Park that was being built near the hospital. And that's

actually John Borovnik's theory. And the prosecution had literally no evidence when they stated it at trial. The theory was later withdrawn and removed from the record by the judge. And I've been thinking about this wet cement thing. Cement dries really quick. Like, if you're getting a human baby under that cement, it would have to, I would believe, at the time it is being poured, which means there are people around and it's daytime. Like, I just, I don't buy this cement theory at all. No.

And, like, whether we buy it or not, we always say on this case, it's about, on this show, it's about the defence and the prosecution coming up with narratives right telling a story for what could have happened at trial but like you can't just say random things without any evidence they have no evidence that this happened not even circumstantial the only thing that's even mildly is that it was near the hospital that's not fucking good enough is it to just say it and have the jury hear it. And the judge even asked the defence if they wanted to restart the trial and get a whole new jury. But the defence were like, don't worry about it. We would like to proceed, please. Surely if you get a do-over, you just take it.

Oh my God, I do not understand. And at this point, why wouldn't you take the retrial? Because you now, the prosecution have also outed themselves in the fact that they have no physical evidence. They've outed their lines of argument, the narratives they're going to bring forward. You could go away. You could re-establish your case. You could come back with a fresh jury and attack them even harder.

But no, they're just like, no, it's fine. We'll just carry on. Don't worry about it. Just make sure the jury definitely, definitely promised that they won't remember that. It's fucking crazy. A friend of mine is a primary school teacher. And when she teaches something, the kid's something that's wrong,

she makes them shake their heads and shake out of their head. So she's like, everybody, and it's gone. That's exactly what this is. That's what I imagine the defense counsel just saying to the jury. Like, everybody, you got it outright. Okay, cool. We don't want the fuss of starting again. the jury. Like, everybody, you got it outright. Okay, cool. We don't want the fuss of starting again. You guys seem like good folk.

Let's carry on. Fucking hell. Like, kids are so funny with stuff like that. Like, when I was in Korea, we did quite a lot of watching Mr. Bean, which obviously had to be a secret because it meant I wasn't doing my job. So, like, I would talk to the kids and they'd be like, funny man, teacher, funny man. I'm like, okay, we can watch the funny man,

but it's a secret. And you all have to promise that it's a secret. And it just devolved into them coming into the classroom being like, secret, teacher! That's amazing. Brilliant, brilliant. That's what this is. This is secret evidence that should be forgotten

and never spoken about again. Apparently. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now, exclusively on Wondery+. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me.

And it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding. And this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame,

fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Combs. Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party, so. Yeah, that's what's up. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment, charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution.

I was f***ed up. I hit rock bottom, but I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real. From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is the rise and fall of Diddy. Listen to the rise and fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery Plus. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudian Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan,

a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On The Media. To listen, subscribe to On The Media wherever you get your podcasts. So apparently Kelly's the one that told them to just get on with it.

And I can understand Kelly wanting it to be over with, but also she is not a barrister. No. Like, tell her to shut up and do what's best. Like, come on. Exactly. I'm like, how is your argument that my client was like, no, it's fine, just get on with it?

She doesn't know what she's talking about. And Kelly says now that she absolutely did not say that to her defence. But Kelly is also a liar, but her defence counsel are also clearly very shit. So it's hard to know who to believe, to be honest. But I do think it is only fair to point out the fact that I do think that Kelly had very ineffective counsel, to say the least. But then saying that, with regards to the actual narrative of the defense, Kelly doesn't really set her team up for success because her story is terrible. It's full of holes and it barely makes sense. But it is all that they had to work with. And it also

didn't help that by this stage that Kelly seems to have told in total eight or nine different versions of what happened the day that Tegan went missing. That's not helpful, Kelly. Pick one and stick to it. But essentially, we can boil her story down to the following. So as we mentioned in last week's episode, Kelly said that on the day she left the hospital, so the 14th of September 1996, she had completed all of the paperwork to take Tegan home and that she had been discharged at around 2pm. She said that she then handed Tegan over to Andrew and then left in a taxi and went to Duncan's house to pick up her wedding clothes and then went to her parents house to get dressed. This is backed up initially by the nurse's notes which literally say 2pm

Kelly Lane like gone left whatever it says in her notes and And basically it says, like, it indicates that Kelly was gone. The problem with this, however, is that if Kelly left the hospital at 2pm, it would have been impossible for her to get to her parents' house at 3pm. It's impossible. Basically, for her to leave the hospital, get to Duncan's house, pick up the clothes, go to her parents' house, is about an hour and a half journey. She couldn't have been there by three.

And we know that she was there by three because Duncan attests to this. And we know that they were at the wedding by four. But the defence stick with this timeline, saying that she did leave at 2pm because they wanted to show that she would have had absolutely no time to kill and dispose of a baby. Because she was doing all of the other things that they have no evidence she actually did. Sure, fine, cool. There are a couple of other things worth mentioning here as well, like the fact that Kelly's roommate in the hospital

said that she noticed Kelly and the baby and all of Kelly's stuff were gone by midday. So that's long before two o'clock. I assume you all know how the passage of time works. For this to be the case, oh my god, I saw a dog on TikTok that understands the time. He has buttons that he can talk and he's like, beach tomorrow, walk morning today. So precious. Got distracted by TikTok dogs. I think the problem with her saying that she would have left by 12 is that if Kelly did leave at 12 that she couldn't have been properly discharged like because the doctors and the nurses the hospital say that all of baby

Tegan's checks wouldn't have been completed at that point so she couldn't have been officially discharged and for this to be the case so for the roommate to be correct that Kelly had left before two so by like midday Kellylly must have left without actually being properly discharged because the doctors and nurses say the tegan's checks wouldn't have been completed by that point and i do wonder if kelly just started to panic because she's got to be at the house by three she's got this wedding to get to she knows these checks are taking too long so she just picks tegan up and leaves because it's all taking too long. And Problem Child give a pretty good explanation of how this might be provable. Apparently, back then in the 90s, baby seats in Australia could only be fitted professionally. And that particular hospital would only discharge

a baby if a nurse walked out to your car with you and checked that you had the car seat properly installed. We don't know what happens if you don't have a car and left by a taxi like Kelly says she did. When I heard that I was like ah well that proves that she wasn't properly discharged because she didn't have a baby seat professionally fitted in her car. But what if you leave in a taxi? Are the nurses just not going to let you leave? Like I don't know. It's not definitive to me but it's worth mentioning. And the other thing that becomes quite a controversial element of this case is the nurse who wrote down the 2pm note in the nurse's notes actually said at trial that she didn't discharge Kelly at 2pm. She said that she had just gone into Kelly's room, seen that she had left,

and written down on the notes about Kelly Lane at 2pm because that's when she did her rounds. And I can believe that because if Kelly just slipped out before 2pm, this nurse isn't going to like go fucking hunting for her. She just sees she's gone and writes down that she's gone. And so if Kelly did in fact leave at midday, like her roommate says that she did, that would have given her plenty of time, not just to get back to Fairlight to meet Duncan but also to have gotten rid of Teagan. So this whole thing basically just puts a whole like confusion around the timelines but I am more likely to believe that Kelly just left before she was discharged. And the other thing, the other issue with this version of Kelly's story is that now Kelly claims that Andrew Norris came up to her room to help her with Tegan and that they walked out to the foyer where Mel and

Andrew's mum were sat waiting for them. But what is important to note with this story is that no one by the name of Andrew Norris or Andrew Morris, or in fact, anyone at all, ever signed in as a visitor for Kelly that day or any day. And I can't believe that a hospital would just let a man walk up to the maternity ward without signing in. Like, even in the 90s, would that have happened? I don't know. No, I don't think so. And the details that Kelly gives,

even about what she did immediately after she had given the baby away to Andrew and his mum and Mel, don't really fit. She says that she walked out of the electronic doors at the front of the hospital. And it's really, like, cringe to listen to her talk about this because she says it in a really overly descriptive way. She's like, you know, and I walked out of those doors,

you know, the ones that pull back, and I walked out into the driveway thing, and, you know, and I walked out of those doors, you know, the ones that pull back and I walked out into the driveway thing and, you know, I got into a taxi. But the Problem Child podcast points out that there were no automatic doors at that hospital during that time. And there were also no taxi stands that close to the front of the hospital. So that is a bit of an issue. The only argument I can say is that Kelly has been in and out of a lot of fucking hospitals. Is she confused? But you have just done a very consequential thing like give your baby to a man. But then maybe it's just normal to Kelly by this point. I don't

know. But this mistake is picked upon by the prosecution because they obviously jump all over this and they say that Kelly doesn't know what the front of the hospital looks like because she actually left through the fire door in her room. This fire door was unalarmed and if you opened it, it would have led down some back stairs that would have taken you down to the ground floor directly to where the hospital's industrial bins were. They're obviously saying that she dumped Teagan's body down there. But with no hard evidence, again, this is just a theory. Eventually, after six long months, the trial finally came to a close and Kelly Lane, who didn't take the stand once, was found guilty of the premeditated murder of Tegan Lane

and sentenced to a minimum term of 18 years. Kelly's still in jail today and she'll be eligible for parole in 2023. God, that's soon. Yeah. She still claims's soon. Yeah. She still claims to be completely innocent. And Kelly spoke out on this case for the first time in the exposed documentary. And if you watch it after this, you'll probably get a similar feeling that we got. They don't really push Kelly hard enough.

They know she's lying. But they seem to take everything she tells them at face value. And they make some weird choices and also seem to get excited by seemingly pointless shit. I think that the documentary wanted to be a, oh my God, she didn't do it. There's an innocent woman in prison. And then they interview her and they're like, oh, she definitely did.

And then they don't know what to do with it this is the thing they know she's a liar they know she lies and they're just like oh god how are we gonna spin a narrative with this one and I don't know I found I found it cringe in all honesty I'm sorry to say that but I did for example the documentary makers get super pumped when a forensic artist works with Kelly to come up with an e-fit of Andrew Morris slash Norris. And like, so? He's an imaginary person. I know. I'm like, what are you so excited about? What are they excited? Oh, she can imagine a face. I know. And yeah, this forensic artist is like, I can tell when someone's making up a face. But what? Kelly could just be thinking about someone she knows

and telling you his face. Like, how do you know? I don't... It's a weird thing to give a shit about. So the documentary hasn't convinced anybody on the Red Handed team that Kelly did not do it. But they did raise some stuff that hadn't previously been discussed,

like the fact that Kelly had been date-raped at the age of 15. And it was her first sexual... She was a virgin before that. Not that that wouldn't be traumatic to anybody, but that is her first ever situation, and this is what happens. Hmm. Other places that want to give a fully negative narrative of Kelly

don't ever mention this. And while it doesn't explain everything, it does perhaps point to an unresolved underlying issue that may have driven her to more irrational behaviour. The documentary also gives a lot of face time with Kelly's parents. And they also, in our opinion, explain some of Kelly's weird behaviour. Now, we did talk about this briefly in last week's episode, but her mum, Sandy, doesn't come off looking great in this documentary. And I know, of course, that, you know, this is only a glimpse into this woman's personality. It's not definitive. And she's obviously just trying to clearly defend her daughter. But I do think that some of Sandy's

behaviour may be indicative of how she perhaps raised Kelly. For example, at one point, when talking about why Kelly kept five pregnancies a secret from her, Sandy says, quote, to be honest, it shows great strength to keep that to herself without letting us know. She did it to protect us. I mean, dislike. What the fuck, Sandy? Okay, you could say she did it to protect us okay fine but to say that to keep five pregnancy secret from you shows strength if you're telling somebody you're telling your child yep you just don't ever tell us anything you bottle up all your feelings and all your emotions that strength no wonder fucking kelly felt like she couldn't tell anybody

so something else that i think is a huge hole, if we believe Kelly, is the obvious. It's where the fuck is Andrew Morris slash Norris? If this man is out there and has Tegan, who today would be like 23, something like that, and he hasn't been found, why doesn't he just come forward? Why also have we never seen Kelly? And maybe this exists out there, I've just not seen it. Why have we never seen Kelly speaking straight to a camera imploring Andrew to come forward and speak out? Like why has that press conference never happened? Or why have I never seen it? The thing is, there was a nationwide

search for him and the police didn't find anything. And yes, while Kelly supporters will say that the police attempts to find Andrew were weak, still, even if they weren't looking hard enough, this case got so much coverage in Australia. It was all over the news. Why did Andrew Morris slash Norris just not come forward and say, here's baby Teagan, like we said with Kelly, if he's the biological father, he hasn't done anything illegal.

And one theory that I did read on Reddit as to why this might be the case is say that baby Teagan grew up thinking that Mel, Andrew's girlfriend, is her mum and maybe Andrew and Mel just don't want to reveal the truth. But like, really, that seems so extreme, doesn't it? To condemn a woman to being called a baby murderer and spending 18 years in prison.

Yeah, I don't buy it. And also, Tegan's famous. Yeah. Like, everyone knows who baby Tegan is now. Like, why would you not just be like, it's all right, guys, call off the search. She's doing accountancy. Exactly. She's fine.

She lives in Canberra and she does accountancy. She's A-OK. She got. Exactly. She's fine. She lives in Canberra and she does accountancy. She's a-okay. She got a dog. She's fine. She's not dead. I don't know. It's weird. She got a dog and a Vauxhall Corsa. Precisely.

But Kelly's parents and her advocates say that there's no evidence, no body and no eyewitnesses, which to a certain extent is true, and that Kelly was judged unfairly because of the secret pregnancies, adoptions and cover-ups. But is that totally irrelevant? It's difficult to say. Because you can make the argument that it shouldn't have been brought up at court,

but like, is it irrelevant? I don't know. I can't bring myself to say that it is. And if we think her motive is that she wanted to go to the Sydney Olympics in 2000, and that's why she killed Tegan. Also a bit of a stretch. Kelly's own coach said that Kelly never spoke about wanting to go to the Olympics and that even if she wanted to she just wasn't that good. No they all say Kelly wasn't the best player in terms of talent she was just really really determined but she wasn't that good. And Kelly's friends who were athletes also made a good point,

saying that if Kelly had been seriously considering the Olympics, she would have had to stop everything else, like partying and also the constant pregnancies. But she didn't. You know, if you are serious enough about the Olympics to kill a baby, surely you're just going to forego the pints. You'd think so, wouldn't you? And Kelly's friends also said that her real goal was to work as a coach

or a PE teacher and marry well in Manly and live a nice life. And that's all she wanted, just to live the life that she had lived growing up. But surely this could also be a reason for Kelly to have been motivated to kill Tegan. She wants a carbon copy of her mum's life and having a baby at, what was she, 20, 19, 20, doesn't really fit into that mould. In a town like Manly, if she wanted to marry someone like Duncan and settle down, it's probably easier to do that

without someone else's secret baby. And we have to also discuss this next bit because it's just so weird. Because it turns out that the prosecution actually claimed to have found a man named Andrew Morris, who said that he had had sex with Kelly at around the time that she would have conceived Tegan, but that he didn't have the baby. However, this Andrew Morris man never testified in court. The prosecution found him, they got him to make a tape with them saying all this stuff about how he'd slept with Kelly.

And then they showed it to the defense. Kelly categorically denied ever having slept with this man and said that she'd never seen him before in her life. But the defense, clearly worried, made a deal. They agreed to drop one of their witnesses if the prosecution agreed to drop their Andrew Morris. And the prosecution agreed. And who did the defense drop? A woman named Natalie McCauley. And also, this isn't Pokemon cards. Like how, when does this become a bargaining thing of like, oh, well, I've got Charizard, so you've got to get rid of Squirtle. Like what? Like, come on. Apparently, this is common, apparently.

So one of the things that these lawyers in the documentary are talking about, how this case really opened people's eyes to the kind of game playing that happens within the justice system. And it made people further distrust everything that was going on, which I do agree. But the other thing I have to feel like, okay, they cut a deal to drop a witness each. But like, how serious can the prosecution have

felt about this andrew morris character and his legitimacy if they're willing to just fucking drop him he is the golden card i can't think of a good reference the golden card he's the ace in their hat i don't know he's the sparkly pokemon card he is he's the shiny and they're just gonna be like oh okay we'll drop him like if you say that you found the Andrew Morris and he hasn't got baby Tegan because Kelly never gave the baby to him surely that's all you need case closed but no they agreed to drop him in exchange for a woman named Natalie McCauley so Natalie was a childhood friend of Kelly's and had gone to work for the UN in child protection in the Philippines and Natalie states that Kelly definitely told her back then, when she would have got pregnant with Tegan, that she was having an affair with a man

named Andrew Norris. And she claims, like we said, she's gone off to the UN to become a child protection person, that she's dedicated her life to fighting for children's rights. And if she thought for a moment that Kelly had hurt Tegan, she wouldn't say this. So thanks to this deal between the defense and the prosecution, Natalie's story is never heard by the jury. But I don't think Natalie's lying. But Kelly lies all the time. And she also uses names of people she knows when she's lying. For example, she would lie about who her doctor or her midwife was every time she turned up at a hospital for an abortion or to give birth. She used names of people like friends, families and even Duncan's mum. Otherwise it would be like Mrs Doubtfire where he's like on the phone being like um it's difficult to come up with names

out of thin air. So maybe Kelly was sleeping with an Andrew Morris or an Andrew Norris at the time but that doesn't particularly prove anything. No I just feel like Kelly's friend coming forward and being like she was sleeping with a guy named Andrew Norris at the time because she told me about it. But like, so? That doesn't prove that he was the baby daddy and that doesn't prove that she gave it to him. Like, I don't understand how that is definitive proof. And this is why we also know that the Andrew Morris that the prosecution found is bullshit

because the prosecution were willing to drop him in exchange for this witness. Yeah, we cannot ignore that Kelly's defense team were bad, but the prosecution are pretty awful as well. For example, the Andrew Morris that they came up with, who made the video for them, now says that he's not actually sure if it was Kelly that he slept with after all. Keep up, Andrew. You couldn't fucking make this up. You couldn't make this up. It's just such a fucking shit show. It's a nightmare. So whatever we think about whether Kelly killed baby Teagan or whether she didn't, I'm pretty sure I don't think the prosecution proved it beyond a reasonable doubt. There's no body, there's no physical evidence, and there

were no eyewitnesses. There's just a lot of circumstantial evidence. And circumstantial evidence is evidence. But I think in this particular case, all the circumstantial evidence and circumstantial evidence is evidence but I think in this particular case all the circumstantial evidence does is paint a picture of Kelly of being not particularly well I don't think it actually pertains to the death of baby Teagan that much at all and even though it is circumstantial evidence it's counterbalanced by a massive piece of evidence that's missing and it's in the shape of a missing baby but But again, the burden of proof is on the prosecution and I just don't think that they showed Kelly killed Teagan. I think that's the thing we have to remember. We can think whatever we want about whether Kelly killed Teagan or not,

but the question of was it proven beyond a reasonable doubt in this court? Was her conviction safe? I don't know that I can say that because they have nothing apart from the fact that this baby is missing and we don't know that I can say that because they have nothing apart from the fact that this baby is missing and we don't know where she is. But like Hannah said, the burden of proof is on the prosecution. So before we get into our thoughts of what we think may have happened, let's talk about the psychology of all of this. Like we said before, during the entire six-month trial, Kelly never took the stand once. And she also flat out refused to be psychologically

assessed. So it's hard to know exactly what drove Kelly to do what she did. Even if she didn't kill Teagan, her behaviour can hardly be called normal. And as always with these things, if you get enough experts together, they will often reach very different conclusions. Dr Diamond, who was a man who was brought in by the prosecution at trial, said that he felt Kelly's repeated pregnancies were some sort of repetition compulsion. In his opinion, he felt that Kelly was dealing with a powerful drive to revisit an unresolved conflicted state. And he explained

that it was most likely due to an underlying disturbed personality dysfunction. Essentially, it seems to be like some sort of traumatic reenactment and like this is a dysfunctional coping mechanism for Kelly. Dr Diamond also suggested that Kelly may have narcissistic personality disorder with psychopathic traits, though it's important to note that since Kelly wouldn't allow it, he didn't actually assess her face to face. Dr. Diamond stated that he felt, quote, she is capable of carrying out audacious and extremely difficult actions to solve problems in front of her. And I think that's how she dealt with Tegan. And I can agree with that. Yeah. Oh, if that's the only thing I can agree with that's happened this whole episode, to be honest. You know, narcissists are driven by shame,

how people perceive them. It's about public perception and status and what other people think. And Kelly seems totally motivated by this. She's motivated by a fear of what people, especially her parents, will think of her. And you can't help but get the feeling that Kelly is totally fearless

when it comes to dealing with terrifying situations as long as her parents don't know about them which is a classic psychopathic trait but dr ann boost another psychologist who did actually meet kelly in person felt that kelly was just emotionally immature placing her at the time that tegan disappeared at the emotional intelligence of a smart 12-year-old. Yeah. She would have been 21. And Dr. Boost is just like, she's 12. How? But only emotionally, not intellectually. She says that.

No, no, I understand that. But how are you pulling people with the emotional intelligence of a 12-year-old? That doesn't make any sense. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe that's where I'm going wrong maybe I should just emotionally devolve maybe maybe that's what it is that's what you're missing I I don't know what kind of a person that's going to attract for you but it might

it might get you some pregnancies it's worth a shot I'm already there with the stickers to be honest I'm halfway there you go I think that dr boost is a little bit too enabling of kelly lane uh for example kelly's recently found herself in the news again because she started sending some pretty aggressive letters to her former partner and his new girlfriend she sent a list of rules and instructions to her ex including things like no going down on her take her for everything she has and she's not allowed in the kitchen what are you gonna do about it from inside jail kelly yeah not a whole lot and what's it got to do with you kelly he's left you and he's with somebody else now like it's so it's so weird it's so weird when asked about these letters and the psychology of it dr boost said

that kelly is quote probably not mixing with the most reasonable women in jail, and she's not the first person to be caught up in a dirty custody battle. Essentially, she's just saying that it's not Kelly's fault. She's being influenced by the other naughty girls in the playground, and that Kelly wouldn't do something like that of her own accord. It's weird. It's really weird. I feel like she manipulates, especially female psychologists and psychiatrists who work with her. There are some others who go out on TV and are like, she didn't do it, she didn't do it.

And I'm like, she's fucking manipulating you. I don't know. Classic psychopath again. Like, classic. The way that Dr. Boost enables Kelly is how I feel likelly was treated by other people in her life and to say that she's just probably not mixing with the most reasonable women are you fucking serious what i don't know yeah um it's it's it's hard not to feel weird about these comments from dr boost and um she is at the end of the day enabling some pretty weird behavior

from Kelly a woman who regardless of what happened to Tegan has never really seemed to have taken much responsibility for anything. So let's wrap up this case with Kelly and what we think about what may have happened. Like we said people who support Kelly say that it doesn't make sense why adopt out one baby kill one baby and then adopt out the third baby again because that is the pattern that Kelly follows. Tegan is the middle child who we're saying that she probably killed but there are explanations for this I think. It could have been that after baby one Kelly realized how hard it was to adopt out a baby without a father being involved because if you remember they were chasing for Duncan to come in and sign these papers and do it it took 14 months for Kelly to get baby Claire adopted out in 1995 without a

father being involved so maybe she just didn't want to go through that again because she knew that it was going to be a massive hassle and we also know that on the day that Tegan vanished Kelly needed to be at that wedding her entire credibility depended on it. And if you ask me for my real honest opinion, I don't think that Kelly wanted to kill Tegan. I don't think she's like, you know, some malevolent person who's like, let me give birth to this baby and then murder it. I think that she killed Tegan out of convenience. And then I think she adopted out the third baby after Tegan. So the little baby boy that she had, because killing wasn't what she actually wanted to do. And it probably wasn't very nice for her.

I don't think that Kelly, like, took Tegan out of the hospital, strangled her or, you know, even maybe smothered her and then just, like, got rid of her body like that. Kelly, if there's one thing we know about her from this entire case, is that she is an avoider. She avoids the reality of situations. I think, and this is just my opinion, most likely what happened is that Kelly took Tegan out of the hospital that day and just left her somewhere that she wasn't going to be found. And then, another thing we know about Kelly, other than how avoidant she is,

is just how great she is at compartmentalizing her life. I think that she could have left Tegan somewhere, closed that little box, and just how great she is at compartmentalizing her life. I think that she could have left Egan somewhere, closed that little box and just tried to forget about it, got back in her car, drove to Duncan's house, picked up her clothes, gone to the wedding and just ignored it all. Just like she tried to ignore and avoid all of her pregnancies until the last minute. That's classic Kelly. We see that with her again and and again and I also think that arguing that it doesn't make logical sense that why would you adopt then kill then adopt again it's kind of a moot point because Kelly doesn't make rational decisions she's proven that time and time again

so I do think it is a bit of a fallacy to try and ascribe rational thinking to her actions and ask why she wouldn't do this or this or why she would do this like I think you have to think about what motivates Kelly and it is her status it's her secrecy and following through on what she needs to do she needs to be at that wedding Tegan was in the way she starts an adoption process it's gonna take fucking days she hasn't got time she needs to get She needs to be gone. I just think that's it. And it doesn't make sense. But I don't think a lot of what she does makes sense. I don't know. What do you think? That's what I think happened most likely. I mean, I'm with you really. Like,

I just I don't think there's any point in attempting to make it fit into like a logical narrative sort of box because she's not a logical person. I think you're absolutely right. I think baby Teagan was a problem. And perhaps she would have done the adoption thing if she didn't have to be at the wedding. Yeah, I fully think she would have. I think her priorities are so out of whack that she was just like, the adoption thing is going to take too long. I'll have to stay here and I can't do that. So my other option is the baby goes in the bin yeah exactly so i think that is tragically what probably happened and some people will also say oh but you know she's not a horrible person who could kill a baby because look at the last baby because her sixth baby that she has with the man that she was engaged to before she went into prison she loved she's got so many pictures

of her and that kid she's like super you know gushing she says that she's so so many pictures of her and that kid. She's like super, you know, gushing. She says that she's so, so heartbroken that she's going to go to jail and lose contact with this child. But that doesn't prove anything. She wanted that baby because it suited the life that Kelly wanted to have at that point. She was engaged. She was going to be married to the father. She was going to have this baby. She was going to have the life she wanted. That baby suited her.

And that's why she wanted it. The others didn't. And Tegan especially didn't and Tegan especially didn't because she was super inconvenient on that particular day. And I think tragically you don't need to look much further than that to understand what probably happened here in my opinion. And I think that Kelly ultimately painted herself whatever did happen as completely unreliable given all of the sort of wild goose chases that she sent police on right from the start because she just lies and lies and lies and every time they follow her story it leads them absolutely nowhere and this i wanted to end on this because i watched that entire fucking

documentary and this is the closing scene of that documentary called exposed and i was like are you fucking kidding me? Because they say, for the first time, they're like talking to Kelly from prison over the phone and Kelly says, this is the first time she's ever said this, I don't know if his name was even really Andrew Norris. Fucking killed me. What are you playing at, Kelly? I know, I know.

And the people in the documentary are like, well, there you go, fucking cracked it wide open. The possibilities are endless. End scene. I'm like, what? What does that fucking prove? Oh my God, the whole thing's a fucking mess. But yeah, that's what we think.

Tell us what you guys think. I'm really interested to know. I know that there are people who believe very strongly on either side of the fence. And I know this was a huge case in Australia. So if you don't already, come follow us on all the social medias at Red Handed The Pod and let us know what you think because I'm very curious to know. In other news, if you would like to get your hands on some merch, it is still up, still available.

You can do so. It's all on redhandedshop.com link is in the episode description below and if you would like to come hang out with us immediately after this in under the duvet uh you can also do that if you're a five dollar and up patreon um and you can also remember to sign up for the live stream if you'd like to do so and here are some people who have signed up in june that we're finally getting around to saying thank you to. So thank you very much. Rosemannuelle Mitchell Jill Jill

Catherine Brunton Marwock Gure Amparo Averbouge Nicola Melanie Moore Kaylee B Charlotte Rayner

Eleanor Rigby Victoria Gray Maya Cragen Jessie McCulloch Pamela Doyle What? Irish name? Cow-lion? Cow-lion? Irish name? Kaulia? Kaulia? Callan? Xan? Kaulia?

I don't know. Fitzpatrick? I'm so sorry. Sorry. Val Cocken? Cocken? I don't know. I'm really losing my confidence.

Jamie H. Strawn? Carice Harville? Sarah Lynn? Nina Goodwin? Jordan Shakespeare? Mary Catherine Snyder? Nikki Samasi, Erin Paula Smith, Suzanne Wichowska, Steffi Stoke, Mark Boyd, Rebecca Golding, Ellen Webb, Leah Dickey, Megan Notting, Elizabeth Franz, I don't know.

I'm sorry. Catherine. Lynn Innes. Bailey Slade. You've just got to say it loudly and with confidence. It doesn't matter what she says. Got it. Got it.

Larry Johnson. Amy Fitzpatrick. Laura Westwood. Shanna Bernstein, Dr. Magusmus, Anna, like the Disney princess, Carius. There you go, Anna. Savannah Globle, Kyle Burns, Clarice Galvrog, Mary Lavelle, Anka Kalaya, Andy Schesser, Gillian Pappas, Joanne Parlett, Emily Linsel, Hamil Michelle Jones, Marina Vasconcelos, Florence Dupuis, Ellen Gora, Ali Gn, Presley with a Z,

Stephen Elliott, Madison King, Michaela O, This is one of our worst so far. Riley Brandy Hughes, Suzanne Semperes, Barbara Kopacz, Mike Van Dulevert, Catherine Barton, Shania Hernandez, Shelby Denham, Francesca Valvala, Chelsea Dockins, Jessica King, Margaret Mitchell. Hey, F-E-W-A-N-G-L-I-S-H. I don't know. Deborah, Weird and Wonderful Ceramics, Jordan H. Wigmore, Michelle Pierce, Ingrid Woodley, Charlie Rivkin, Elliot Mackey, Elissa Molina,

Brooke Wallace, Bonnie McGlynn, Catherine Stacey, Lauren G., Abigail Walford. There you have it. If anyone wants to have a go as for not pronouncing the names properly, we can't know all of the languages in the world. We just can't. And we've just read so much. I can't just read forever. I'm not a reading

machine. But anyway, that is the end of this. We will see you next week for a different case. Goodbye. Yeah. Come to Over the Duvet and talk about abortion doping. Over the Duvet? I just learned about it. Over the Duvet. Under and Over the Duvet. We're going to have to go through it because we're going on a duvet hunt. I see. We can't learned about it. Over the duvet. Under and over the duvet.

We're going to have to go through it because we're going on a duvet hunt. We can't go over it. Goodbye. Bye. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either, until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life.

I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness, and inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music,

or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app

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