RedHanded - Episode 182 - Adrian Lim: Singapore's "Ritual" Child Killings - Part 2

Episode Date: January 28, 2021

This episode explores the aftermath of the arrests, the strange confessions of ritual black magic and child sacrifice, and the bizarre death penalty trial that followed. Singapore reeled as it soon became apparent that Adrian Lim and his "holy wives" had been targetting children long before their first murder...  Sources: Book - Unholy Trinity by Alan John  www.redhandedpodcast.com   See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Get ready for Las Vegas-style action at BetMGM, the king of online casinos. Enjoy casino games at your fingertips with the same Vegas strip excitement MGM is famous for when you play classics like MGM Grand Millions or popular games like Blackjack, Baccarat and Roulette. With our ever-growing library of digital slot games, a large selection of online table games and signature BetMGM service, there's no better way to bring the excitement and ambiance of Las Vegas home to you than with BetMGM Casino. Download the BetMGM Casino app today.

BetMGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. 19 plus to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact ConnexOntario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor. Free of charge.

BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hannah. I'm Saruti. And welcome to Red Handed. How's everyone doing? Good? Are we all okay? Have we recovered from last week's BOMO fun? More importantly, have you guys all followed us on the various social medias

to watch Hannah's egg trick? Because she did it. The egg video was such a hit. It was. What an unexpected banger. And it went out before the episode came out. So people were like, this is great. What's going on? This is great. What an unexpected banger. And it went out before the episode came out. So people were like, this is great. What's going on? This is great. What's going on? My favorite was a tweet from

somebody who was like, I've just found Red Handed. Am I going to watch a video with Hannah doing a magic trick related to an episode that I probably won't hear for maybe six months? Yes, I am. So welcome, newbies. Welcome, oldbies. Welcome welcome everyone. Except those of you who haven't listened to part one of this particular case yet. You're not welcome. Yes, not welcome. No. Actually, abandon hope all ye who enter here because you're not going to have a fucking clue what's going on. Absolutely. She's not lying. This is part two of the Adrian Lim case and Singapore's ritual child killings. If you have not yet listened to part one that came out last week, please go and do that before carrying on with this episode because you might feel like you're special. You might feel like you're a rule breaker, but it's just not going to make any

fucking sense whatsoever. So don't do it to yourselves. Pick your battles. This is not the hill to die on, friends. Go back and listen to part one. Precisely. And for those of you who did listen last week, it's been a long time. A lot's probably happened between then and now in the outside world and possibly even in your lives, even if you are still stuck inside. So let's do a very quick recap. Adrian Lim, when we left him last week, had been having, you know, his fun with the occult, setting up a temple and branding himself a BOMO. He had conned multiple women into having sex with him under the guise of cleansing floral baths. And finally, he'd been reported for rape by a young woman named Lucy Lau. Following this, the body of nine-year-old Agnes Ng Siok-Hook

was found outside Block 11 on the To Pai O estate, just one block away from where Adrian and his two holy wives, Mui Chiu and Ka Hong, lived. The country was reeling from Agnes' discovery when within just two weeks, the body of another child was found. This time it was that of a 10 year old boy. He was found dead just meters from where Agnes's body had been found. The little boy's bruised, battered and bloodied body had been discovered under a tree between blocks 10 and 11 of the Topayo housing estate. The post-mortem revealed that the boy had drowned,

and unlike Agnes, there was no sign of sexual assault. Three burn marks were found on the boy's back and a puncture wound on his arm. Toxicology also showed that he'd been drugged with a heavy tranquilizer. For Detective Pereira, who was leading on the investigation into the murder of Agnes, the discovery of another child was a gut punch. But he knew that this killing might give him some vital clues to trace the killer. So Pereira was at the scene within 25 minutes of the body being found. And when he arrived, Detective Pereira spotted a bloodstain on the ground between blocks 10 and 11.

And then he spotted a second one, near a staircase, at block 12. He followed the bloodstains, and as he walked up the stairs, he found a third bloodstain, and then a fourth, and a fifth. He carried on on the trail of these bloodstains further and further up the building, and they led him all the way to the seventh floor. Here, the bloodstains abruptly stopped, and so did Pereira. He wanted to check these flats. And as he scanned the front doors, something caught his eye. He noticed that flat 467F had a small oval mirror and a knife blade hanging over the door. That's

quite suspicious. I would argue less suspicious than the literal footprints of blood leading to his door. That's true. You know, if I had to pick one. He's like, oh, look at that, a weird little mirror and a knife. So Pereira obviously spotting these two slightly odd things, perhaps, but the massively odd thing of the bloodstains leading up to this door, Pereira knew that this was probably the flat that he wanted to start with. And when he knocked, the door was answered by a person that Pereira described as a, quote, portly Chinese man.

It was Adrian Lim. Pereira identified himself as police and asked Lim if he could search the flat that's covered in blood and mirrors and knives. And Lim agreed and led the detective straight inside. Pereira was curious. The flat was filled with all sorts of religious paraphernalia. You'll remember from last week that he's very pick-your-own-religion, is Mr Adrian Lim.

All sorts. He's got Jesus in there. Absolutely. And big into idol worship as well. He loves a bit of that. They're everywhere. Yeah, he's got Thai sex gods, Hindu gods, Jesus. Mary Magdalene's probably in there as well. Who knows? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

They're all there. The whole gang's there. Don't forget the Siamese sex god, Pragnan. My new personal favourite. Yeah. The one that we're not sure we will ever say right, but we will find out. Definitely not. But I don't know, do gods haunt things?

Because the lights in Hannah's recording box keep turning on and off or dimming themselves. Yes. I'm convinced it's Pragnan because it's almost every time we fail to say his name right, the lights just go down. Maybe by complete accident we found the one true god and the one true religion and it's a really obscure Thai sex god that's the only one that's real. Maybe we've discovered it. Do you know what? Let's fucking let's we can't start a religion. I guess that would just be appropriation. Let's appropriate him and do something with that.

Great. Fantastic. Watch this space. We can be his followers and we can call ourselves the whores of Babylon. Oh, yeah. Nice. Nice. I'm not on the Facebook group very much these days, but I did have a quick glance, and someone was telling me off because the Whore of Babylon isn't a person, it's a portent, and I had to look up what portent means, and it just means symbol, so it doesn't really help, does it? Doesn't help me at all.

It means like a foreboding warning, like an omen. Oh, I still don't get it, but it's good to know. There was probably one of those in Adrian Lim's flat. I'm sure, I'm sure. So the flat was filled with all sorts of religious paraphernalia. There were crucifixes and pictures of Jesus covering one wall, and on another, there was a sinister-looking altar. This altar was surrounded by idols of Hindu and Chinese gods and goddesses.

There were also rows and rows of photos depicting terrifying looking deities. Above the altar there also hung a particularly menacing looking Indonesian marionette puppet complete with a knife in its hand. I assume a little puppet knife. It's never actually made particularly clear but in my head when I was reading the book and you you know, collecting the information on this, I imagined it to be a real knife because Adrian Lim is fucking intense. But I don't know. Don't know. Good question. With a sense of unease filling him, Pereira noticed that this puppet, the statues and all of the photos, appeared to be splashed and smeared with what looked quite a lot like blood.

But Pereira was determined not to show his suspicions or his fear, so he continued to just search the flat. And when he entered the kitchen, he spotted a deep, dark, red stain on the floor. Pereira asked Lim what this was. To this, Lim just told him it was red candle wax, which is not a very good answer, I'm going to say. No, you could have said red wine. That would have been better.

Anything would have been better. I cut myself. Try something that's actually a liquid. No, like I've got a cherry Yankee candle slowly dissolving on my bedside cabinet, and it definitely doesn't look like blood. It looks like wax. And my room also smells like cherries because I'm gross. But of course, you know, you don't need to be a detective inspector to know that it probably wasn't blood. But being a detective inspector, Pereira was pretty sure that it was blood. But he still didn't challenge Adrian and just carried on.

He walked into the bedroom next. And there, again, were more odd religious artifacts everywhere. There were also bowls filled with eggs. We know why. We've seen Hannah's egg trick and we also know what Adrian was up to. There were also bottles filled with colourful liquids. And there were also more bloodstains. And this bit, I just was like, I hate this.

There was like a spray of blood across the bed's headboard. I hate that so much. But I did think that was quite fun. Bit rock and roll. There was a Led Zeppelin poster pinned just above this bloody headboard. Which in a way, they may have approved of. I don't know. I mean, you know, don't want to defame them.

Probably not of the little kiddies getting murdered. But maybe if it was just red wax, that'd be cool. True. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I take it all back and I prostrate myself at the altar of Led Zeppelin. Good, you whore of Babylon. Disorientated by what he was seeing, Pereira knew that he had to call for backup. Something had happened in this flat. But was it related to his somethings? He asked Lim if he could use the phone. Lim, who had remained incredibly calm throughout the search, said that that was fine. By the phone, Pereira spotted a well-thumbed-through phone book and a notepad. And he couldn't resist having a quick look as he dialed the police station. Written on the first page of the notepad were the words, Gazali Marzuki 10. That didn't mean anything to Pereira, yet. But the scrap of paper he found

tucked very conveniently inside the phone book itself definitely did. Pereira could hardly believe what he was seeing. As he pulled the scrap of paper out of the phone book, he saw that written on it was Agnes's full name and her home phone number. And if you would be so kind as to cast your minds back to last week's episode, you will remember this is the very number on which the mother of the murdered nine-year-old Agnes had received a terrifying call from a woman threatening her other daughter's life. I mean, just write all this incriminating stuff down, leave it around, let the detective walk around, don't ask about a warrant or what he's doing there or try to block him. It's very odd. It's very odd. But just one in a series of very odd things that are about to happen this episode.

So obviously Pereira by this point had called the police and within minutes the flat was full. And Pereira's deputy arrived with news that the young boy who had been found dead was named, you guessed it, Ghazali Mazzucchi. And he was 10 years old. Lim, realising that the police were connecting the very massive and obvious dots in front of them, started to panic. Pereira asked him why he had the name of a murder victim who had been found

just meters from his flat written in his notepad. Adrian claimed that he didn't know Ghazali at all and that the boy had just come to see him because he had a nosebleed and that he had just fixed him and sent him on his way. I guess that's a very convenient and stupid lie to try and explain away why they were definitely going to find Ghazali's blood in the flat. And the two women who had been in the flat the entire time Pereira had been searching it, the entire time Adrian was telling the story, just remained silent and looked incredibly uncomfortable. Wasn't that exactly what Huntley said about Holly and Jessica? Didn't he say one of them had a nosebleed and that's why they were in the house?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right. You're right. Yeah, that's exactly it. That's exactly what Huntley said. Oh, they came in because they had a nosebleed. Why? And then they ended up drowning in the bath. Oh, fuck off. The police were going to have to wait and see what the forensics turned up. Although we do have to remember, fair warning, this is in the 1980s. So forensics was not what it is now and it wouldn't actually give the police that much help. But for now, they had enough to go on. So they arrested Adrian Lim, Ka Hong and Moi Chu. After these arrests, so they arrested Adrian Lim, Ka Hong and Mui Chu. After these arrests, and thanks to the pictures of the flat and the altar leaking to the papers, word spread like wildfire all around Singapore about the child ritual, human sacrifice and the murders of two children.

The police were under a mountain of pressure to resolve this case as quickly as they possibly could, because that's what happens when things get to the press. Yeah, kids getting murdered and there being some sort of potential, like, satanic or ritual element to it. I mean, this is the kind of thing that just destroys a police force if they can't move quickly. So in summary, if you are murdered, make sure your family hire a PR team. Yes, precisely.

So things moved pretty quickly. And two days after their arrests on the 9th of February 1981, all three were charged with the murders of Agnes and Ghazali. Adrian, Liam, Car Hong and Moi Chu were also ordered to undergo a month-long psychiatric observation. Eventually, they were all found to be fit to stand trial. Car Hong pleaded not guilty, while Adrian and Mui Chu pleaded guilty. But the judge rejected their guilty pleas. And this I thought was actually very interesting

because in the UK and the US and like basically everywhere else that we've been on this show geographically speaking, if you plead guilty, it means that there's no trial. It usually even means that you might end up with a reduced sentence for, you know, showing remorse and sparing the family from having to go through a trial and all the expense that comes with that. But what I found out this week was that in Singapore, the court can reject a guilty plea if the offence is punishable by death. So basically, if it's a death penalty case and you plead guilty, the court can only accept the plea of guilty after the prosecution

has first proven its case through evidence at trial. So it doesn't matter. You can plead guilty, but basically all it means is that your defense team aren't going to put forward a defense against the evidence that the prosecution are going to be presenting. They may just present motions of like mitigating circumstances or diminished responsibility. So even though in this case two of the defendants had pleaded guilty, since the prosecution was going after the death penalty, there was still going to have to be a trial. So this is how seriously they're kind of taking it because the prosecution could have decided we won't go after the death penalty and it will just be no trial they just go straight to jail possibly for life but because they want death

that's why you know the next bit happens. And the deputy public prosecutor Glenn Knight had quite a job in front of him because this case was almost entirely built on circumstantial evidence. Yes, of course, there were guilty pleas and there were confessions, as we'll come on to, but the forensics were weak and there were no eyewitnesses. And so despite the guilty pleas, Knight was going to have to cut through all of the crazy that had enveloped around this case in the media and in amongst the public and prove that the three on trial had intended to kill Agnes and Ghazali because anything less would be manslaughter. The trial started on the 25th of March 1983, 18 months after

the initial arrests and it would be eight weeks of pure strangeness. Let's consider first off the evidence that the prosecution had. Ghazali's name had been found in the notepad at Lim's flat. Agnes's name and number had also been found in the flat. And remember, a few days after Agnes's body had been found, her mother received a call threatening to, quote, chop up Agnes's older sister. The prosecution claimed that this must have been made by either Kar Hong or Mui Chu. Tranquilisers like those found in Ghazali's system were also found at the flat in copious

amounts. The flat was also filled with books on witchcraft and newspaper cuttings on human sacrifice. But my friends, all of that is circumstantial, I'm afraid. That is not good enough. As much as I want it to be, it isn't. Yeah, circumstantial evidence is evidence, we know that. But it's also like, it's a death penalty case, you know, that's as hardcore as it gets. And the burden of proof is on the prosecution, you know? Yep. And you have to remember that the guilty plea will only be accepted by the court once the prosecution has proven beyond reasonable doubt the guilt of the defendants. So even though they've pleaded guilty, it doesn't matter. The prosecution still have to prove this. No one had actually witnessed

Agnes's abduction, but Ghazali was taken in plain sight. Ghazali was spending the Chinese New Year with his grandmother near Topayo and on the 6th of February he and his cousins were at a local playground when a woman had approached them asking if one of them could help her with something. Ghazali agreed so she took his hand to walk off. Children if an adult is asking you for help do not go they do not need your help you are a child. Exactly this whole scene just reminds me of something out of like The Witches. Yes. I swear this is like a scene out of it

where the kind young woman comes over, asks for help and then leads the boy away holding his hand with her gloved hand. That's what it feels like. Square toes. I know. Ghazali's cousins watched as he got into a taxi with this woman and Ghazali was found dead the next day. The issue was that cousins couldn't positively identify the woman that they had seen.

But the description they did give matched Car Hong pretty well. So what about the forensics? Like Hannah said earlier, this is 1981. So what I'm about to tell you, it's going to be painful to our modern ears where, you know, the whole CSI effect, we all look at DNA forensics first. It's almost these days, like, if you don't have that, you barely have a case. But that's very much what was happening here. And oh my god, I'll talk about this in Under the Duvet, but I watched the Netflix Night Stalker documentary. I know I said to you, I wasn't really that bothered, but I watched it and it's actually quite good. So I'll talk about it there. And I was just like,

fuck, there's so much DNA everywhere, but they can't do anything with it. Like it doesn't mean anything at that point. It's really quite painful to like glance back at crime historically. Yeah, I bet. I do think maybe I really want to do something about like, I want to call it the DNA problem. How it isn't always as super convincing as everyone thinks it is. And we're so, we're so obsessed with it. And a fucking DNA diet on a fucking juice cleanse. There is no information here whatsoever. So what the forensics did find was various items like the statues, a pair of slippers, some shorts and towels in the flat that were covered in Group B blood. They also found a syringe full of Group B blood in the fridge. None of the three accused, so Adrian Lim, Ka Hong and Mui Chu, had Group B blood. But Ghazali did. The thing with this that can be argued quite easily is that Adrian Lim and the two women

admitted that people who used to come and see Adrian for his services as a BOMO used to be quote-unquote donors. So they would donate blood because these three were heavily into blood drinking. They would get up every night at midnight, drink blood, smear it around on their statues, etc. I think they realized they couldn't just keep taking theirs. And if you remember what Uncle Willie told Adrian, it's more powerful if it comes from somebody else. So at this point, all forensics

are able to do is say what type of blood it is and say that it matched Ghazali's. They cannot say that it is a DNA match. They cannot say it is Ghazali's blood. So that's the problem. But remember that Ghazali was found with a puncture wound in his arm that looked like a syringe had drawn blood out of him. So again, it's just circumstantial, isn't it? It's so frustrating. Forensics also found what looked like Ghazali's hair in the carpet under the sofa. And that was basically it. And just to clarify, when we say it looked like Ghazali's hair hair we have touched on this in an episode in the past

I can't remember which one but literally maybe it was the one on Rodney Lincoln the man who went to prison and then was exonerated later essentially back then what they would do is just look at two hair samples under the microscope and be like they look similar that's. So as you can see, this is all very, very circumstantial. But in this case, there was something more. Car Hong, Mui Chu and Adrian Lim had all given the police lengthy interviews when they had been arrested. And Car Hong's 23-page statement revealed that Ghazali and Agnes were not the first children who had been brought to the flat. Because remember, all of them just basically admit to it. So their statements are very telling. It's not even telling because that almost sounds like it's implied. Are very

obviously revelatory. So according to Kahong, after the rape charge that Adrian Lim had faced because Lucy Law had reported him, Adrian was pissed. And apparently he had killed the two children because he wanted to punish the police, to distract them from his rape charge, and also to teach Lucy a lesson. We'll come on to like the flawed thinking behind this, but essentially he's kind of doing it to like cause chaos and that the police will be so swept up with this child ritual killings spree that's on the loose that he can just slither away from his rape charge. That's apparently what he told Car Hong was his reason. And Car Hong went on to say that Adrian had told her that these like random killings of children that he had planned was so that the police would be so confused that he would be able to escape

any sort of rape conviction because they wouldn't be looking into it i mean what a fucking plan right what a weird plan that's what he's done his whole life though like i'm not surprised that he thinks he can get away with that because that's all he does and people consistently fall for it. Oh absolutely and that's why last week when we talked about the Lucy Law rape charge we said that that was a turning point in the case because Adrian had always gotten away with everything up until that point. Not even to the point that people had reported him and the police hadn't done anything

to the point that he had so successfully manipulated everyone that came into his life no one had ever even reported him so for him to like be dragged into a police station and be held up on charges of rape he was furious and I don't know how much I believe that he just did it to throw the police off but we'll come to that later but I definitely think he is fueled by rage that this happened, that Lucy dared to go and report him. Car Hong also revealed that Adrian had told her and Moichu that he had spoken with the gods about his plans as well, and that they had given him the godly green light to start his child-raper murder strategy to distract the police. And so one day in December 1980, according to Car Hong, Adrian called her and said that she needed to get him a fish.

And apparently fish was Adrian's code word for children. I really like when I imagine that call because you'll see that he calls Car Hong all the time to like ask her. It's because he wanted to, quote, avoid any suspicion. So he got another flat for Car hung to go and live in and she would just come visit the flat where the temple is like every day to take part in his weirdness that will come on to but i love the idea that he just calls her and says like i need you to get a fish for me and she's just like what like did they discuss this previously was that already a code word is he having to explain it on the phone for the first time i mean it's just like the almost comical banality of like setting up a code word

for her to go find children for him to rape and murder. It's so fucking bizarre. And like as if having Car Hong living in the flat and not in a different flat is the suspicious bit, not the like trail of blood leading up to the front door and the knives lying around. He is a man of many contradictions, is Adrian Lim. And so, Car Hong had gone into a playground in Topayo and spotted three Indian children who

were hanging out there. Car Hong struck up a conversation with these kids and managed to lure one of the little girls back to Adrian's apartment. But when she arrived with the fish, Adrian wasn't happy. He said that the girl was too old and that he didn't want an Indian child. Not for the reasons you may think, but actually because he was worried that if he killed an Indian child, it might make Carly angry instead of happy. Does she differentiate between the ethnicities of the children she wants? I don't know. Maybe. This is another thing to like hold on to.

Like you're going to need the pin cushion. Get it out. Put a little pin here of this particular statement. Because he is saying here that he is selecting the children that he is going to rape and murder based on what he thinks will appease or anger Goddess Kali. But he told the women when he started this, you know, telling them to go find fish, that he was doing this because he wanted to distract the police from the rape investigation. So which is it? Are they sacrifices to please Kali? Or are they just, you know, collateral damage to prevent him from going to jail for rape? Like, it's just an important thing to remember because we'll come back to it. So he didn't want the Indian child, so he gave her $2 and sent her on her way home.

A day or two after this, Lim called Kahong again and asked for fish. This time, she went and found a 10-year-old girl named Pei Ling. She asked Pei to come with her and she took the girl to Lim. But once again, Lim wasn't happy with Ka Hong's fishing expedition and he rejected this girl too. He claimed that this time Pei was just too small and apparently he told Ka Hong that he was worried that if he had sex with her, he might injure his penis.

It is a tough life, isn't it? It is really, really tough out there for a bad boba. It really is very difficult indeed. I just want to fucking stab him so many times. This absolute piece of shit. So after this revelation, Ka Hong drove Pei Ling back to where she found her and just let her go. Again, I feel like they're taking such massive risks. They're like abducting, well not abducting,

they're like, well, yeah, kind of. They're like luring these children back to this flat, showing them their faces, showing them the flat and then just being really weird and then letting them go. Like it's all so strange. So given that he had been unhappy so far with Car Hong's catches, Lim decided to be more specific. And this next line is going to most definitely turn your stomach like nothing else. Basically, Adrian Lim tells Car Hong to go and find him a child who had, quote, some flesh on it, which is just so, I don't even know, deranged, depraved, fill in the adjective. And so the next day, Ka Hong went out hunting again. And this time she spotted two Chinese girls outside a corner shop. She lured one of these girls, Alice, away with her.

But when she got to the flat, Alice refused to enter. Eventually, after much pleading and promises of chocolate, Ka Hong managed to get Alice inside. As soon as he saw Alice, Adrian approved and they tried to sedate her. But somehow, Alice managed to grab the phone and call her friend. She told this friend to tell her mum that she was in Topayo. Lim freaked out and fearing that to kill Alice now would be too risky. The trio put Alice in a taxi and sent her home. This is the weird thing, right?

Because he's so brazen in some ways that you almost think, you know, maybe he really does think he's completely protected by Carly. But then he does lose his nerve at points like this as well. So it's really conflicting. If you truly believed that you were untouchable, you wouldn't give a fuck that this girl managed to ring someone. But he does. And I think, again, these are important little nuggets of information to squirrel away.

And we're going to come back to these because it's very, very telling as to his psychology and his true motivations. And I'm also like, just to clarify, if anybody's like, well, I don't think you guys explained that well enough. When we say somehow Alice managed to get the phone, that's literally all we know. Like, I don't know how this child, who they at this point had actually managed to force

to take at least one of their tranquilizer pills, managed to grab the phone while there are three adults in the room and phone her friend to tell her mum where she was. The only thing I can think is that these three are getting high on their own supply and that they're all fucking off their tits on tranquilisers as well and that's how this child was able to trick them. Maybe, maybe. What little we do know comes from Car Hong's interview,

but Lim also gave a lengthy 54-page statement to Pereira. And this statement is very interesting indeed, because in it, Lim divulges a hell of a lot of information. He reveals that, as we know, he's a steadfast worshipper of Kali, and that he also knows that he does not have any magical powers. He admitted to Pereira that he used tricks like the needle in the egg trick, as seen famously performed by Hannah Maguire on IGTV.

And he used these tricks to manipulate people, including Carhong and Moichu. And this is very important to remember. Adrian never showed either of the two women his tricks. They genuinely thought these things were real, according to both of their statements and the statement that Adrian gave himself. And I think this is what's interesting because he admits to Pereira that he knows he's not magical. And I think that's quite an important

thing because we obviously know because he's doing trickery, but he fully knows. And what else is clear during Lim's 54 page statement is that he loves the sound of his own voice. If you read it, he just goes on and on about himself, his past, his family, all of that stuff. And during this police interview, he even admitted that he was, of course, faking all of the voices that he had used during his abuse sessions, including the old master and, everybody's favourite, Pragnan. He said that it was easy to control Mui Chu and Ka Hong because they were uneducated and superstitious. And it's quite interesting what Lim tells Pereira versus what he goes on to say in court.

Because during this interview with the detective, he gives it the kind of like the big I am, telling him that he was tricking these people and these women and that he killed these two children to get even with the whole world. And that is a quote, and also just to throw the police off his trail. But again, remember what he's saying to Pereira, because we'll see just how much his story changes later on. Mui Chiu was just 26 years old when she was arrested alongside Adrian Lim. And like we said last week, Mui Chiu, as much as she did take part in these murders, she was also a victim of his too. Lim beat her and humiliated her on a regular basis.

Adrian Lim essentially treated Mui Chiu and Ka Hong like guinea pigs, testing out his weird treatments and rituals on them. He had practiced the electrocution ceremony on Ka Hong and Mui Chu for weeks. He would also make them lie naked on the floor with metal objects like scissors or knives placed all over their bodies and clenched between their legs, up near their vaginas. And he would also place wires on their bodies and then turn on the electricity. He enjoyed watching them convulse and tremble. Lin would also regularly make both women drink his urine and blood. And whenever he hit them or tortured them,

he would do it in the guise of the old master or Pragnan, and then just say that the gods were compelling him. He would then return to being adrian once it was all over and he'd hug them and tell them that the work they were doing was very important i mean it's so like it doesn't even need saying but it's so like so much abuse so much gaslighting and i think that we will obviously go on to see that these women were very involved like car honk goes and gets these children and brings them to Lim, knowing what's going to happen to them. But there is no denying that he is

massively manipulating these women throughout the entire time they're with him. But the women may have been under his control for years. However, after the arrests, they spilled all of the beans. Car Hong even gave a very detailed account of what had happened to Agnes. According to her, on the 24th of January 1981, Adrian had called her and asked for fish. So she had gone out and found Agnes at the church and lured her home. Immediately, just like with Alice, Lim had approved. But he wasn't going to repeat the mistakes that he had made before. So the three of them quickly drugged Agnes, and Car Hong admitted to carrying the young girl into the bedroom and leaving her and Lim in there alone. The post-mortem on Agnes revealed what Lim

had done. He had raped Agnes and sodomized her, and Car Hong confessed that after he was done, he had actually complained to her a few times that his penis hurt. But the depravity wasn't done yet. Kahong said that at midnight, Lim had pricked Agnes's fingers and sucked the blood. He had then made her and Mui Chu suck from the other hand, and she admitted that the two of them had just followed his orders. After this, according to Ka Hong, they had lit joss sticks and smeared Agnes' blood on the pictures and statues on the altar. Mui Chiu had then held the girl down as Adrian suffocated her.

He then placed Agnes' head in the water tub and placed live wires into it. Apparently he wanted to make doubly sure that she was dead. And then in an unbelievably stupid next move, they took Agnes's body out of the flat in a bag to dispose of it. But when they thought that someone had seen them, they just dumped her outside block 10, just one block over from the block in which they actually lived. I think I just, I'm going to have to subscribe to your theory

that they're all just high as kites. Like, I really don't see another way around it. I just can't imagine, like, how could you be? Again, it's like this weirdly, like, macabre, disgusting, darkly, weirdly comical aspect of it where they're, like, carrying this girl they've just murdered in a bag outside. And it's just a bag.

Like, that's all there is. I understand not wanting to be seen. But like, they think somebody sees them, but instead of just like bringing her back inside and deciding to do it later, they just leave the bag and then run back to their flats. Like, what the fuck are you doing? Soon after Agnes' murder,

Car Hong said she was terrified to see that Adrian just wanted to keep going with the killings. Two weeks had passed and no one had linked them to the murder of Agnes. But Adrian was growing frustrated again because the police were still harassing him about the rape of Lucy Lau. For which, remember, at this point he is out on bail for. And also remember that Adrian had told the women that he had to kill these children to distract the police with such a big case that they would forget all about the little rape case he was charged with. But with the police still on his ass, it didn't seem to be working. So Adrian called Carhong and told her again that he wanted a fish. But this

time he wanted a boy. He claimed that this was so he could give Agnes a partner. You don't believe in ghosts? I get it. Lots of people don't. I didn't either, until I came face to face with them. Ever since that moment, hauntings, spirits, and the unexplained have consumed my entire life. I'm Nadine Bailey. I've been a ghost tour guide for the past 20 years. I've taken people along with me into the shadows, uncovering the macabre tales that linger in the darkness.

And inside some of the most haunted houses, hospitals, prisons, and more. Join me every week on my podcast, Haunted Canada, as we journey through terrifying and bone-chilling stories of the unexplained. Search for Haunted Canada

on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you find your favorite podcasts. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America. But when a social media-fueled fight over Harvard and its new president broke out last fall, that was no protection. Claudine Gay is now gone. We've exposed the DEI regime, and there's much more to come. This is The Harvard Plan, a special series from the Boston Globe and WNYC's On the Media.

To listen, subscribe to On the Media wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to light some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff,

the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery Plus or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery+. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Start your free trial today. Car Hong found 10-year-old Ghazali, and once at the flat, the three of them once again drugged him, and as the boy slept, Lim gagged him and taped his eyes shut.

When Ghazali came to and began to struggle, Adrian hit the boy hard in the throat in almost a karate chop move and then carried him into the back room. Choking on the gag, surging with fear and reeling from the strike to his throat, at this point Ghazali vomited and defecated. The women held him down to stop him struggling as they drew blood from his arm and emptied it into a glass and drank it. They then filled a tub with water and forced

Ghazali's head down until he stopped moving. Adrian then placed two live wires in the tub, again just like with Agnes to make sure. The three of them, after they had murdered this 10-year-old boy, then just went out to dinner, leaving Ghazali's body in the flat. When they got back, Lim, so fucking casual, even demanded a massage. And it wasn't until sometime after midnight that the three of them got ready to dump the body. And you think that after what happened with Agnes, they would be a bit more fucking careful this time. But no, they carried Ghazali's body out of the flat. This time he's a 10-year-old boy, so he's not even that small. They're just carrying him.

He's not even like covered up or in a bag. They're just literally holding him. And yeah, they carry him out of the flat and down to the street, where again they panicked that they thought someone had seen them and they just left Ghazali's body outside blocks 10 and 11. Again, remember they live in block 12. This is just metres from their own fucking flat. But this time, because they hadn't put Ghazali in a bag

and because he'd been bleeding, they had left that telltale trail all the way from his body back to their own fucking front door. As you can tell, although at the time the police and the prosecution couldn't point the forensic finger at Lim, the evidence is pretty strong. And like we said at the start, the defence wasn't really there to dispute the prosecution's case. The defence just wanted to show that all three of the defendants were insane at the time of the murders in an attempt to avoid execution. And so the defence never tried to argue against the evidence. They were simply trying to secure convictions of manslaughter rather than murder. But to do this, they were

going to have to show that at the time of the killings, Lim, Kahong and Moichu were all suffering from such a serious abnormality of the mind that it removed their ability to form intent to commit a crime. And we've said it before and we will say it again today for you. In a court of law, intent is everything, especially when you are trying to prove insanity. So Adrian took the stand on the 13th of April 1983. And it's very, like when you read the book, it's really funny because they're like, the defence say, oh, you know, there are no eyewitnesses.

This is good for you. They're, you know, while they have all this evidence and yes, you have confessed, like there's no one to actually like point the finger and say all of this. And what's really interesting when you read the book is the fact that it's obviously being discussed and thrown about that there are no eyewitnesses, to which Adrian Lim

tells the prosecution and the defence, it doesn't matter because I'm there and I'm the best eyewitness there could possibly be. What? Yikes. Yeah. I'm amazed he didn't defend himself. I know. And it sounds very Trumpian, doesn't it? I'm the best. I'm the best eyewitness. You don't need anybody else. Don't worry about it. I'm here. It's all good. It was all good.

Not for Adrian, but for everyone in the courtroom to hear the fucking crazy shit he said. Because, yeah, he gets up in the dock. He's holding rosary in one hand, twiddling away with them. Again, does he believe? Is it there to comfort him? Or is he trying to come across pious? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe a bit of both. And when he got up there, he also promised that he wanted to just be honest and fair.

And then he claimed that he alone had killed Agnes and Ghazali. And he also admitted to having killed Kar Hong's husband, Benson Lo, who we met last week. But he claimed that he had done it because Kali had made him. having killed Ka Hong's husband, Benson Lo, who we met last week. But he claimed that he had done it because Kali had made him. And this is a direct quote. He said, quote, I did it because Goddess Kali asked me to. It's not fair, you see. And there's no proof that Goddess Kali asked me to do it.

But she did. And I'm a sensible man. So I listened. Of all of the things he is, I don't think sensible man is one of the... Exactly. If you have been listening to this episode and last week's, you will know that Adrian Lim is not a sensible man. And, you know, this is where we're going to, like, pull back all of those things that we've been asking you to pincushion away.

Basically, like, he tells the women, and he tells Pereira during his interview that he did it purely to, you know, be very calculated and be very Machiavellian and get away with this rape charge that he was under. And I think that's maybe in his mind, like quite a cunning way to have thought about it. But I think that he changed his story away from that and towards this, I did it because Carly made me and it was all ritualistic and it's because I believe in her and it was all a sacrifice to get away with these rape charges. Possibly he's saying that now at trial because he's trying to secure this insanity defense and so he can avoid

being executed. Like that is such a big shift in like your motivations for why you're doing it. Like why say that before and now change your story to being something like this? Yeah, it's really interesting. And something we're going to talk about next week is the difference between a delusion and a strongly held idea and how difficult that is to draw a line, psychiatrically speaking, between what is a delusion and what is something you just really, really believe and it takes over the way you do everything. I think he's trying to score an insanity defense. I think he's delusional in a colloquial sense. I don't think he's deluded in a psychiatric mental illness sense.

I agree. And I think like, you know, some of the stuff we asked you guys to save in the back of your mind, think about the fact that he rejects that Indian girl that Carhon goes and gets her and says that it won't work because Carly might be angry. Why, when there is a child there that he could goes and gets her and says that it won't work because Carly might be angry. Why, when there is a child there that he could rape and murder, which is what he wanted, does he say no to this girl?

I know he also says that she's too old, which could just be that's because his preference as a child sex offender. But like, it is weird that he's pulling in on Carly potentially being displeased when he's told the women it's because just a purely cunning strategy to get away with this rape charge by distracting the police. Then I think it's also quite telling if it is just a cunning way to get away with it or the rape charge. But then I think it's also quite interesting that if you think it is just a cunning way to get away with the rape charge, as he claims, why does he need to do all of the weird ritualistic shit? He could just make it look like that shit had happened, you know, like pricking Agnes's fingers at midnight, making them suck blood from it and then smearing it all over the statues. Like that's the level of commitment that nobody's going to find out about. Why do it if

it's not something you actually think needs to be done? Or he's just a deviant. I don't know. Why did he do it? I think that he might have just stupidly thought that with a child rapist killer running around, the police might forget about his rape charge. But I think it's much more likely that he probably also just really wanted to rape and murder some children. I think that's probably it. And if we're going with that line of thought, which I think we probably are, why involve the two women? We've seen this kind of thing before. If we look at the Ripper crew of Chicago, for example, a killer with depraved tendencies

who doesn't just get off on doing his dirty deed alone, but gets a huge kick from watching others take part and also be a part of the fantasy. The power that comes with involving others, either by forcing them or manipulating them, just adds another layer of I am so in control of these two women that they literally help me do the most outrageous things just because I pretend that I'm a demon. Exactly. I almost think he gets off on it more that they don't really want to do it, that they're doing it purely because he's making them do it. Adrian Lim's behaviour screams of a man who knew exactly what he was doing. But the defence psychiatrist claimed that Adrian had manic depression and that he also suffered from psychotic delusions about Carly. And next week, bring your delusional brain buckets because we're going to have to really get into what do we mean by delusion and how can that be separated from what are accepted religious beliefs. It's going to be a lot. Get ready.

But let's stick with Adrian for now. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Given that Adrian had admitted to trickery all along, it was hard to swallow this defence of manic depression. And the prosecution were able to easily undermine the theories of Lim being delusional. Yeah, I think once someone admits to like them using trickery to manipulate people and con them, it's quite hard to then also think like, he believes it, and he's just delusional. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because he clearly doesn't because he's gone out of his way to use trickery. I also think like, you know, why involve women? I think we've seen

this before. I think the practicalities of it weren't lost on Adrian. I think he knew that using women to go and find children to lure them to the flat for him is just way easier. I think he knew that it would have been way harder and way riskier if he'd have tried to do that himself. Oh, 100%. And when we look at team killers, like whether it's couples or pals, like people who kill together in teams, it's always because they fit together like pieces of a puzzle, like every member of the team serves a purpose. And I think you're absolutely right. Like every member of the team serves a purpose. And I think you're absolutely right. Like he knows a child is much more likely to walk off with a woman than they are with a portly Chinese man.

Is that what they called him? Precisely. So at trial, Mui Chu and Ka Hong seemed to take a very different route to the one that Adrian was taking. You know, Adrian's up there being like, oh, it's all because Carly made me do it and it was ritual and it was because of that and it's because I really believe it

and, you know, I thought she was going to help me get away with rape. But they take a much more, I don't even know, you guys decide. They basically seem to rationalize away their involvement in these child killings by saying that because Agnes and Ghazali were just children, they were innocent

and therefore they would have gone straight to heaven. So no harm, no foul, right? Like, yeah, sure, I killed your kid, but he's not here suffering on this horrible planet anymore. He's gone to heaven. So, like, it doesn't matter, does it? I think this is just a way for them to cope with this horrible thing that they've done, possibly.

And they both also agreed that they had just done whatever they did because Adrian had told them to, and because they believed that he was powerful and speaking for God. The defense argued that Mui Chiu had severe depression, and that she had been convinced by Lim that she was possessed. This, along with the torture and the abuse, had only worsened her condition, transforming it into depressive psychosis. And as we covered last week, Mui Chiu had a very, very traumatic childhood. So they also bring this up.

But the prosecution disputed any sort of notions of depressive psychosis, saying that there was no evidence of psychosis or delusions. And also, this was quite interesting, they basically state that Mui Chiu regularly, including during the time of the killings, had spent huge amounts of money on makeup and clothes every single month. The prosecution therefore claimed that this proved that she was still very much in touch with reality, given how much interest she showed in herself and her appearance. As for Ka Hong, she'd previously been diagnosed with depression and schizophrenia.

And the defence pointed out that Adrian had told her repeatedly that if they did not kill Agnes, the little girl would grow up to be evil, like Car Hong's mother, and cast spells on people. But as we have discussed on this show before, mainly in our Andrea Yates episode, mental illness alone is necessary but not sufficient for an insanity defence. Insanity isn't a clinical term, it's a legal one. And the prosecution argued that despite her mental illness, during the time of the killings, Ka Hong had known that what she was doing was morally and legally wrong.

They were also able to point to the fact that Ka Hong was regularly going to her doctor's visits. So if she had relapsed, according to the prosecution, no doctor could have missed the symptoms. In her initial police interviews, Kahong had also confessed to feeling excited during the killing. So that didn't help her case very much. And it's also exactly what Myra Hindley said. Myra Hindley said that she knew what she was doing was wrong, but she enjoyed it. Which is another really interesting, when you come to like couples killers under the umbrella of team killers I think we are not particularly with Car Hong because I

think you know she's clearly had a lot of stuff happen to her but you know you are still responsible for your actions never mind your upbringing and I think that when it comes to couple killers as a society we're very quick to jump to this idea of like, oh, she was swept away and completely under his spell. And how could she have possibly done anything about it? And I think we might need to be a little bit careful because it could be like Myra Hindley. I truly believe that if she'd never met Ian Brady, she never would have killed anyone. I do believe that. I agree.

But it doesn't mean that there was nothing bubbling under the surface. You know, she wasn't a completely blank slate, like beautifully clean, virginal person. And maybe Car Hong isn't either. But we don't know. It's just a thing to think about. I think we need to be careful of jumping on the damsel in distress bandwagon all the time. Obviously, it does happen. Of course, I completely agree with you. And like we've said throughout this episode, both Car Hong and Wee Chew were from very difficult backgrounds and they had faced a lot of abuse at Adrian Lim's hands. But I think Hannah's completely right that it doesn't erase their involvement with this.

Most murderers didn't have a super great time when they were a kid. It's very, very common. Exactly. So the prosecution psychiatrist, a man named Dr. Chi, also said in court that he couldn't see how three very different people with three very different mental illnesses could all be sharing the exact same delusions. Folie a deux, or madness of two,

is a term that you're probably all familiar with. In this case, if we believe Adrian Lim was delusional, it would of course have been a folie a trois. But that term isn't actually used anymore. And the condition is now referred to in the DSM-5, which is the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Illnesses, as shared psychosis. And it is defined as an identical or similar mental disorder affecting two or more individuals, usually members of a close family or a group of people who are socially isolated. I think we can say that that kind of ticks this box.

Like they do very much isolate themselves. Ageing them is very much in control. Like they aren't exactly social butterflies, let's say that. No, I think the idea of a shared delusion or a shared psychosis could possibly fit here. But it's interesting if we believe that Adrian Lim is not suffering from psychosis, can it be a shared delusion if it's not a delusion in the first place? Precisely. I think that is the exact point to make here. Because, you know, I think it's very easy to just be like, oh, it is a shared psychosis. It's a a folio toit but the problem is that in the clinical like definition of this extremely rare

syndrome a key feature is that transmission of delusions from an inducer so the primary patient who is the originally ill patient who suffers from a psychotic disorder to another person or people who may share that induces delusions in entirety or in part. And so the crucial point is it needs to be the leader of the group who is the inducer. So it needs to be the leader of the group who is the originally mentally ill person who has delusions, who is suffering from some sort of delusion, to then transmit that to the others within the group. But I think it's very difficult to feel that Adrian was delusional. I'm not saying everything is a-okay, but delusional, I don't see that. And so unsurprisingly, the defense failed to prove this.

I also want to clear up, like, obviously, obviously Mui Chu and Ka Hong are, you know, no one is questioning whether they were savagely abused at the hands of Adrian, and they absolutely were. In the end, the judge, Justice T.S. Sinothore, rejected the notion of insanity and declared Adrian to be a coward and a sexual deviant who killed out of anger. He said that Lim was purposeful in his pursuits, patient in his planning and persuasive in his performance for personal power and pleasure. I think that Justice really likes alliteration, loves a peace out, loves a plosive, doesn't he? Fucking hell. I feel like he just stopped listening to the evidence after like day one

and just sat there the rest of the time working on his like closing statement about this when he sentenced them. Because that's great. I love that. Yeah, well done, Justice TS. And he also added, I'm afraid this one doesn't quite roll off the tongue as easily, that he was revulsed by Lim's abominable and depraved conduct. The judge stated that he felt that Moichu was, quote, an artful and wicked person who was always a, quote, willing party to Lim's loathsome and nefarious acts and killed

because she loved him. In contrast the judge did say that Ka Hong was a simple person who could be easily misled but he finished by declaring that she had still been fully aware of what she was doing when she brought the children to Lim. And so on the 25th of May 1983 in a packed courthouse all three were found guilty and all three were sentenced to death by hanging and they were eventually executed five years later on the 25th of November 1988 and that's what happens to bad Burmos. The end.

During their five years on death row all three did find God again. Adrian Lim converted back into becoming a Roman Catholic. He even confessed and repented to a nun, as did the other two women. But, you know, how honest their repentance was, I don't know. And also, like, nuns can't really take confession. Like, women don't really do that in the Catholic Church so that's like a halfsy halfsy like that's not no. I think that they

didn't like have the best people wanting to come and hang out with them even from the church. Apparently it was like really really shocking when this all came out because Agnes you know we said that she had been abducted from the church that she was at, which was the Church of the Risen Christ. That was a vocational school that Mui Chu had gone to before she was 16 and she got that bar job. So they knew her and they obviously knew Agnes and they were distraught.

And the nun that had gone to take their repentance was the nun who worked there and knew both of the girls and that's why she went. I don't think anyone else wanted anything to do with them. Yeah okay. Sad times right? I know. Well hopefully you guys are still there and you aren't too bummed out by all the child murders that have happened in the last two episodes but it's over now and like we said last week if you guys are interested there isn't a whole lot of information out there on this case but there is a book out there called the unholy trinity by alan john again i'll link it below if you guys want to check it out there is also a film that i found that has

been made quote unquote loosely based on this case would you like to know what it's called i'm hesitant but yes and i have no idea why it's called? I'm hesitant, but yes. And I have no idea why it's called this because I watched the first 10 minutes and I almost threw up. So I stopped watching it. It's on YouTube. I'll leave the link below because why the hell not? It's called Medium Rare. Oh, no, no, sorry. Cancelled. No, can't. No, please don't leave the link. I don't think we can spread that kind of content. Yeah, okay. I'm please don't leave the link i don't think we can spread that kind of content yeah okay i'm not gonna leave the link just go google it go search for it on youtube the whole film is there it's horrendous i watched the first like 10 minutes of it and it's just like

it's all the stuff we were talking about last week so all the face piercing the like body mutilation the hooks in the backs and dragging stuff it's a lot so that brings us to the end of our little series here on Adrian Lim and the Singapore child ritual killings. Don't know if you guys enjoyed it, whatever. But if you would like a little break from all that, you should come hang out with us under the duvet. I don't know what we'll talk about this week because we haven't recorded it yet. But last week we talked some more about the capital riots. We talked about Armie Hammer, though the title that was come up with for the Under the Duvet is infinitely funnier.

I'm so sad we missed the joke during the show. Armie Hammerball. We talk about him being a cannibal, apparently, allegedly. So come check that out. And this week, we'll probably talk about the Night Stalker and some other things. So there you go. Oh, yeah.

Well, remind me. I'll watch it yes you should come and check that out on under the duvet at patreon.com slash red handed and here are some lovely people who signed up at some point that we need to say thank you to so thank you very much amy adwan roquette ricky bamford me claire hoffman, Chloe MacDonald, Jessica Adams, Taylor, Ellie Barton Mather, Joanne Alvino, Marg HB, Heather, Zuffi Kranglin, Meg Hitchcock-Smith, Abby Crouch, Brittany Cates, Samantha Mazio, Abby Mills, Thank you. booth el chase karen romaine madeline lambillette jack pout laurie sabo becky economu emily elizabeth ray stubblefield tave tave maya maria haugen foith jennifer patino bethann cole crystal

canny palmer tony burlow jocelyn herrera sophia pickin christa b sarah hayes steva one gazi Thank you. Leonie Rae Parks, Nora Brach, Michelle, Susan Nielsen, Emily Kivisalu, Winter Steinway, Caleb, Sasha Frede, Katie, Kayla, Carmen W, Michelle Chan, Ashley Sullivan, Claire Pocock, Mel Jewel, Kenna Kruluk, Emma, for supporting the show. We hope that you enjoy the rivers of content that flow through our Patreon. That's all I've got to say about that. And that's all that needs to be said. Goodbye. Goodbye. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now, exclusively on Wondery+. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey

to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding. And this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy.

You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Combs.

Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party, so. Yeah, that's what's up. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment, charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution.

I was f***ed up, and I hit rock bottom, but I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real. From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is The Rise and Fall of Diddy. Listen to The Rise and Fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery+.