RedHanded - Episode 183 - Anders Breivik: Norway's Nightmare

Episode Date: February 4, 2021

On 22 July 2011, Anders Breivik sent out thousands of the same email. The subject line read: "The Islamisation of Western Europe and the State of the European Resistance Movements", and attached was his 1500 page manifesto. He then detonated a bomb in the government quarter of Oslo, before heading to the island of Utøya, where he would become Norway's worst mass murderer - after taking the lives of 77 people, mainly teenagers. In this episode Hannah and Suruthi take a look at the childhood and life that led Anders Breivik to carry out one of the worst European terror attacks of the last decade. Sources:  www.redhandedpodcast.com    See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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She even increased taxes in this economy. Yeah, higher taxes, carbon taxes. She sounds expensive. Bonnie Crombie and the Ontario Liberals. They just don't get it. That'll cost you. A message from the Ontario PC Party. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made.

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or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hannah. I'm Saruti. And welcome to Red Handed. I should have learned how to say welcome in Norwegian, but I have not, despite my very imminent plans to move there because I am now obsessed with it. One of my only friends from when I lived in Costa Rica was Norwegian, and I got in touch with her this weekend to double check pronunciations of stuff. And I can confidently say that nothing is pronounced in Norwegian the way you think it is. Oh, I see. Okay. Plot twist language. Got it.

Plot twist. So shout out to Annetta for helping me out. Because their justice system is so different to anything else in the West, it was quite difficult to negotiate. But I did, thanks to Annetta. So let's get on with it so we can all find out why I am Norwegian now. In the forest in Norway, miles away from his native Oslo, a 32-year-old man was making a bomb. When he had shown up, asking to rent a remote farmhouse, the landlord thought it was odd that such a well-groomed city type would want to come and live out in the forest. But rent money was rent money, so he left the man to it. Neighbours also thought this city man was weird. He certainly didn't know very much about farming.

He drove all his fertiliser straight up to the barn and never managed to grow any crops. But, like the landlord, they left him to it. The man was very glad of this peace and quiet. Illegal bomb-making factories are quite obviously best undertaken alone. He had made very sure that no one would suspect what he was doing. He bought his sulfuric acid from car dealerships, his sodium nitrate and powdered aluminium from Poland, and his plastic bags from China. eBay helped him to make quite a few of his anarchist cookbook purchases. The framework for his bomb was metal.

He needed it to fit inside and be attached to a van. So invested in his bomb-making project was this man that when he was promoted within his Freemasons Lodge, he didn't attend the ceremony, which, considering at one point in his life the Freemasons was absolutely all didn't attend the ceremony, which considering at one point in his life, the Freemasons was absolutely all he cared about, was strange. But now this man was far too busy for the Freemasons. He had his own shit to deal with. And before we go on to pick through that shit, for want of a better phrase, we need to tell you that a majority, well, a big chunk of the reading that we did for this case this week came from a book called One of Us by Usna Saivista which is probably not even close to how you say it. It is genuinely a really

great book. We read a lot of true crime books for the research for this show and some of them are like swimming through treacle but this one very very entertaining. It's a really good story. It's told in a very compassionate and interesting way so if this case is even remotely to you, I would guarantee that reading it would not be a waste of time. And if you guys have watched the Netflix adaptation called 22nd July, then that also comes from that book, which is quite interesting that they changed the name. I wonder if it's because if you just go onto Netflix and search for the title of that book, you're going to find something completely different because one of us is actually a rather fun British murder mystery that's on Netflix, which I would also recommend. It's very good. I have not watched that, to be honest. It's actually

quite good. But yeah, like go check it out. Go check out the book. Before you do that, though, just keep listening to this podcast because this is also very good. So the bomb was doing its bomb thing. So this man had time to kill. And during this time, he decided to order a semi-automatic Storm Ruger rifle. Right. Can I just make a suggestion for gun policy? Maybe this is something we could try. Storm Ruger rifle sounds so fucking cool that it almost makes me a very anti-gun fucking liberal want to hold one. Do you really? It's kind of radicalizing me. It's kind of radicalizing me. I wonder if we should just make some laws where you don't ban guns because you can't and you just force gun companies to only be allowed to name them things like limp dick bang bang sticks or something you can't be allowed to call it a fucking storm ruger

rifle fuck off that's not fair i see where you're coming from i just i don't know it's like men's shower gels are all called like bomb use on your face and inside your nose. It's the same thing. Whereas women are just marketed endless fucking products. We're like, oh no, you can only use this dental floss on the left side of your mouth. Yes. You can't use this soap in this particular region.

Otherwise you'll smell horrible and make it worse. And then no man will want to be with you. And also it's in pink and it costs twice as much. Anyway, that's not the point of what we're trying to say this episode. I just think, let's talk about some naming legislation. How about that? Just a suggestion. Anyway, despite its very quote-unquote cool name, when the gun arrived, this man was disappointed

because the silencer that he'd ordered to go with this gun was cancelled. But ever the optimist, this man thought, it's okay, without a silencer, I can fix a bayonet to the rifle instead. After all, and this is his quote, Marxist on a stick will soon be the exclusive Knights Templar trademark. It's quite a logo. It's a powerful logo. So as you'll go on to see this man is incredibly organized he likes a list and so what he does now is he writes out all of the items that he purchased so everything that had been on his shopping list and he also took photos of all of his various wares he also took a lot of anabolic steroids. He was keen to become as big as he possibly could for his upcoming task.

And when he wasn't inhaling dangerous amounts of fumes from his bomb barn, he watched The Shield, True Blood and Dexter. Which, you know, Dexter, excellent. True Blood, excellent. Never watched The Shield though. But this man's favourite was The Shield because he found that the other two shows promotion of a multicultural lifestyle to be very off-putting.

But he still watched them, which I thought was interesting because if you've seen True Blood, you'll know that the whole vampire-slash-normo analogy, allegory, seems to be very much about race and class in modern society. So I think it's quite interesting

that he just watched it, kind of annoyed by them forcing this agenda down his throat. But he kept watching it. So there you go. As we will see as we move through, he misses quite a few glaringly obvious things in his own ideology. I want to say maybe it was just because of Anna Paquin's fantastic starring role in True Blood. What a woman. Anna Paquin, who is role in True Blood. What a woman.

Anna Paquin, who is a fan of the show. Hello, Anna, if you're listening. Deep friend of the show, Anna Paquin. And, you know, if you think that's quite weird that he's watching True Blood and missing the entire point of the show, he also did it while eating his Chinese takeaways. It's so good, isn't it? I would like all of the things that benefit me about immigration.

But actually, this is what's so frustrating about this man. Nothing is taken away from him because of immigration. His life isn't affected in any way because of immigration. But he still takes the dramatic stance that he does. Of course, it's like, I don't want you here, but I also don't want to just eat pickled herring or whatever shit they would eat before that. Reindeer steaks. I was going to chuck in a peep show reference, but I feel like I missed the point or missed the place.

Chomping on his racist carrots. That's what he should have been doing instead of eating a fucking Chinese takeaway. You don't get to have one if you're a racist. No fucking Kung Pao chicken for the racists. That's my legislation point two when I eventually become Prime Minister of the world. Guns have to have limp dick names and no Kung Pao chicken for racists. Perfect. What a platform. To be honest, it's a lot more coherent than the fucking Brexit party. On the 5th of July 2011, the man took the train into Oslo. He needed to pick up a van that he'd hired and he also needed to drop in on his mum. On the train from Rayner, the nearest station to his farm factory,

into Oslo, the young city boy met a little old man. They got chatting and it turned out that the little old man had been at the very first protest against the Vietnam War in Los Angeles in the 70s and this story brought on an accusation of communism from the young man. The young man went on to clarify that he was a Christian himself. He literally just like, oh, so you're a communist. I'm a Christian. You've got confused there again, my friend. Then the young man went on a lengthy rant about the Islamic invasion of Western Europe. The older man, rather astutely, I thought, asked him why, if he was a Christian, he didn't follow Jesus' teaching and love his

neighbour as himself. Yes, old man. Yes. Bringing out the fucking hard talking points. Bring them on. I only imagine this conversation being all the better if this young city man was also fucking chomping on a bloody ban me while he's saying all this. The young man scoffed at this and said that he had very little time for Jesus and all that love nonsense. Then he gave the little old man his phone number and email address. The elderly man was so rattled by this interaction that he told all of his friends. He was worried that such a man with such strong views was roaming around unchecked. And he was so worried that he actually rang the phone number given to him.

But he read the zeros as sixes, so he never got through. The email was correct, though. It was anders.bearing at hotmail.com. Love a hotmail. You love to see it. You never see them these days. There's not enough. There's not enough hotmail or AOL emails floating around anymore. I used to have a hotmail until my friend Darcy was like, Hannah, please get in a Gmail. It's embarrassing. She was like, you can't do this anymore. Intervention. You need a Gmail. Fair. was like you can't do this anymore intervention you need a gmo fair the concerned old man went

about his life and anders bearing went about his van collection once he got back to his farm he removed all of the rental company branding the deposit he'd paid on the van didn't matter he had no intention of returning it and money didn't matter where he was going on the 18th of July, under the cover of darkness, Anders loaded all 950 kilos of farm-made, hand-crafted bomb into the back of the rented van. Then he left it in the car park of a garden centre where no one would notice it. In his room at his mum's flat in Oslo, where he had spent five whole years of his adult life playing World of Warcraft, Anders composed an email. And this email was to be sent to 8,000 different email addresses. The subject line of this email read, the Islamisation of Western Europe and the state

of the European resistance movements. The email was addressed to Western Patriot. And I just wondered, you know, does that sound familiar to anybody? Ringing any bells to anybody, anywhere? Is it something we've been hearing for the past three weeks, possibly four years, five years? Don't know, just thought I'd put that out there. So Anders then explained to his patriots that he was attaching his own work, which he described as, quote, advanced ideological, practical, tactical, organisational and rhetorical solutions and strategies. Which I must say, he could probably work on his copy

because it's not quite as catchy as The Final Solution, is it? No, not quite. But it does roll off the tongue and English is his second language. He writes everything in English and it is flawless. Obviously, I've watched a lot of Norwegians speaking this week. Incredible. Everyone speaks perfect fucking English. I feel like all of the Scandi folks and the Dutch possibly speak better English than the English. That's what I found. 100%. We're in fucking embarrassment. We are. We truly are. We're so sorry.

The body of the email continued, quote, I do not want any compensation for the work, as it is a gift to you as a fellow patriot. In fact, I ask only one favour of you. I ask that you distribute this book to everyone you know. Please do not think that others will take care of it. Sorry to be blunt, but it does not work that way. If we, the Western European resistance, fail or become apathetic, then Western Europe will fall and your liberties with it. I love that.

That's just like the most aggressive PR campaign for like distributing your book I've ever seen. Apart from just like telling people they'll straight up get cursed if they don't email it to 50 people immediately. It's literally like that, isn't it? It's like, you didn't ask for this email. This is my unsolicited manifesto, but I'm not going to charge you.

So the least you could do is forward it for me. He then attached his 1,500-page manifesto, or quote-unquote book, as he described it in the email, and signed off, Sincere Regards, Andrew Berwick, Justice R, Knight Commander. Get in the fucking bin, you absolute trollop. I hate him so much fucking fuck off it's uncomfortable and 1500 pages it's 75 000 words it's a book it's a book i can't i can't cope fucking hell

this will make you feel better and it will make the rest of you feel better as well if you have listened to our fall River Cult episode recently, you will already be able to recall that one of the earliest references to an accusation of Satan worship was levied against the Knights Templar, the originals, the elite fighting force and Holy Grail enthusiasts. And the Knights Templar OG edition were accused of worshipping Baphomet. But some historians think that Baphomet might not actually mean goat-legged Satan, but could actually be a mistranslation of Muhammad. Meaning that during the Crusades in the Middle East, the Knights Templar were converted to Islam, which seems a little bit more likely than them just starting to worship the devil out of nowhere. I love that.

Which is the most perfect thought, isn't it? I love it. He does so much research on so many other things, but he doesn't think to check that the Knights Templar are actually what he thinks they are. The classic. I mean, we've all been there, but come on. Come on, Anders. It might not be 100% true.

It's just a historical reference that has been debated. But it is a lovely thought to think that the people Anders based his whole ideology upon actually gave up their Christianity in favour of Islam. So despite all of his reading, Anders may not have got that one quite right. But he doesn't know that. And he doesn't know that in 2011, even if he does know it now. So he hit send. His computer hummed a whirred in the way that only a 2000s computer could and struggled with the workload of 8,000 emails. Anders did not have time for this. He decided he would leave the computer running and at about 1pm on the 22nd of July, he left his mum's

house and headed to the garden centre. In Anders's absence, his computer struggled on, but gave up after sending his second proudest work to just a thousand email addresses. Anders' first proudest work was still to come. When he got to the garden centre car park, Anders hopped inside the van. He was usually a fan of a Lacoste polo shirt. Never trust a fucker in one of those. If I see someone wearing one of those, I walk on the other side of the road. I'm more scared of Lacoste polo shirts than I am of hoodies. Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's super interesting, actually, that this again fits that entire vibe that we're seeing because it's very obvious, isn't it, now,

that the polo shirt has become the uniform of the white supremacist far-right movement. It's really interesting because if you look at pictures of Charlottesville, for example, when those fucking white supremacists are like carrying their tiki torches they're all wearing white polo shirts because also the proud boys it's not just like generic far right like the proud boys have specifically taken up the black and yellow fred perry polo shirt as their uniform like that's their fucking like rule in fact and i didn't know this until today did you know that in the southern poverty law centers glossary of terms of like

racist skinhead shit fred perry is actually now included i'm not surprised i read this really interesting article so the washington post's fashion critic, a person named Robin Givhan, actually said in this article, quote, just like polo shirts, racism, white nationalism and KKK rallies are as American as apple pie. But it doesn't seem to be just confined to America, as we are seeing. So they just have like become pervasive everywhere. And I was like, why is this? I think there's like lots of different reasons for it I don't think we'll ever be able to pinpoint it but I do think it's quite interesting that in their article Robin says that apparently it's because for the far right it seems like polo

shirts are almost like the epitome of whiteness because like when they first came out they were meant to be worn at yacht clubs and when you play tennis and when you played golf and it's kind of like the shirt du jour of wasp society and it's kind of like look how clean cut look how straight laced I am and is that why they've adopted it which is quite interesting but it does seem to be more than a coincidence oh totally it's interesting though isn't it Fred Perry is quintessentially British like he's a British designer it's a load of cricket jumpers of Fred Perry, etc, etc. So it's very interesting that it's been adopted by the States to such an extent.

And I just Googled on my phone to check whether it was a British brand or not. And if you type in Fred Perry, is Fred Perry, the first thing that comes up is, is Fred Perry chav? Question mark. Is Fred Perry chav? That's amazing. But you're right. It is such a quintessentially British brand. And the hilarious thing is that Fred Perry, the tennis player whose name they've obviously adopted for this brand, his father was a socialist MP, which I think is hilarious. I, to be honest, it baffles me. Absolutely. But I think that, you know, the Proud Boys, a lot of far right white nationalist groups across the world definitely have adopted this polo shirt as a brand of their kind of, I don't even know, white supremacist uniform, along with Doc Martens, which is quite sad as well. Except the Boogaloo Boys, who have stuck very fervently with their Hawaiian shirts. Because why not?

I mean, I don't know why we're trying to make sense of it. It makes absolutely no sense. So let's get back to Anders slipping out of his white supremacist uniform and back into another uniform. He changed into an all-black affair and clipped fake police insignia to the sleeves of a black compression top and pulled on a bulletproof vest. In order to pull off his master plan, Anders needed to be able to go anywhere unquestioned and also armed. Impersonating a police officer was the perfect ruse, as long as no one got close enough to realise that his police badges were basically made of Lego. He drove the van to a tower block in the government quarter of Oslo that housed the Prime Minister's office and the Ministry of Justice. He had attached the bomb to one side of the van, so that meant in

order for it to do its job properly, it had to be right next to the building with the bomb facing into the building, if that makes sense. But there were cars parked in his ideal spot. He had to park the van the wrong way round. The blast would go away from the building, not into it. It wasn't ideal, but he would just have to live with it. He parked the go away from the building, not into it. It wasn't ideal, but he would just have to live with it. He parked the van next to the building's reception, near some pillars. The blast would probably take out the pillars, which in turn would probably collapse the entire building, which was, after all, the whole point. The bomb had a six-minute lead time between detonation and actual explosion. So he's no suicide bomber.

He's not planning to go up with this bomb. No, his entire intention is to survive so he can tell the world what he thinks. Absolutely. You know, you don't want to just create this fucking white utopia for other people. He wants to create it so he can enjoy it, but then wonder where he's going to get his Chinese takeaways from. So this six minute lead time was obviously designed, as we said, to give Anders plenty of time to make his escape.

So we parked the van and he lit the fuse. I think as he did it, he fully expected to be blown to pieces there and then, but he wasn't. Either the bomb was working as it was intended to, or it wasn't going to explode at all. Either way, he didn't want to stick around to find out. So Anders made a very slow break for it, not wanting, of course, to draw attention to himself. He walked to another van that he had parked previously. This was his getaway vehicle. One of the receptionists inside the tower block noticed the van. No one was supposed to park there, but it was hardly rare. So during his casual break-making, Anders was spotted by another man, Andreas Olsen,

who thought it was weird that a police officer would get into a delivery van. So he wrote down the registration plate of the Fiat Doblo, WH24605. May we all be Andreas Olsen? Like, seriously? What a guy. What a guy. Fucking hero, mate. Who would do that? I certainly wouldn't. I would like to think from now on that I would, but let's all take a leaf out of Andreas Olsen's, you know, fucking registration plate writing down book. So Anders actually spotted Andreas giving him a strange look, but decided to ignore it and press on. He had work to do. He drove out of the city and into the Opera Tunnel, a motorway that runs under a fjord.

Anders turned on the radio. Unusual programming was interrupted by an emergency news transmission. His bomb had worked. The first van had exploded at 3.25pm, and in total it killed eight people. Some died instantly in a wall of flame, some not so instantly. Body parts lay scattered on the street. And although he killed eight people, over 200 people were injured. Security at the ministry figured out pretty quickly that it was a vehicle that had

exploded. The then Prime Minister, Jens Stoltenberg, had decided to work from home that day because he had his speech to write that he was scheduled to give on the island of Utøya the next day. Utøya is a very small island, about 38 kilometres west of Oslo. When we say small, we mean small. You can walk across it in about 10 minutes, and it's just about 500 metres or so off the shore. And rather cutely, we thought, if you look at it from above, at just the right angle, the island looks like a little heart. Utøya is everything about Norway, in about 10.5 square hectares. And the Prime Minister was set to give a speech on the island, because it was where the youth division of his party were having their summer camp.

The AUF, or Workers' Youth League in English, had this camp every summer. It was for teenagers, mostly who wanted to get together and talk politics and do summery Norway stuff. Utoya was also where Anders was heading, in his second van. Meanwhile, Andreas Olsen, after the explosion, decided that he should ring in his tip. Maybe it was just a coincidence, but he wasn't willing to take that chance. He gave the operator the registration number he'd written down. ring in his tip. Maybe it was just a coincidence, but he wasn't willing to take that chance. He gave the operator the registration number he'd written down. The operator, in turn, wrote it on a post-it note. This post-it note made its way to the desk of the chief of the operational centre, but no one would read it for half an hour. Anders was allowed to continue on

his journey to Utøya unchecked, as Norwegian officials suspected an al-Qaeda-fronted terror attack, and they sent troops to protect the US embassy. Isn't that so, like, fitting to everything we're seeing, even playing out now? Like, just this idea that police, authorities, the FBI, whoever it may be, in all Western countries, seems to be so much more focused on international terrorism than they are on the very obvious, very real,

very emerging threat of domestic terrorism and especially white right-wing, white supremacist terrorism. Like it just doesn't seem to be enough at all prioritised or thought about. And it's also exactly what Anders knew would happen. Exactly. He knew that as a white man wearing a fake police uniform, he was going to be allowed to walk through whatever he wanted. And he still has the audacity to complain that he's discriminated against because he's white.

You're totally right, Hannah. It's not just him being like accidentally getting away with it. He is fully cognizant of his privilege in this scenario, but still ironically thinks that he is a discriminated group. It's just, you couldn't make it up. It's fucking baffling. He thinks he's a minority in his own country, but he can walk through so many security checkpoints without even being looked at. Anders listened as an expert on the radio confirmed that the government suspected a terror attack from an Islamist terrorist cell.

Exactly what he had predicted that they would think. Back in Oslo, the post-it note found its way to the correct eyes and Andreas Olsen was given a ring back. He described Anders pretty well. European, in his 30s, about 180 centimetres tall, which is just about six foot. A bit under. I'm sure Anders told everyone he was six foot. He's probably about 5'10". In Norway, European in his 30s and just

under six foot is actually quite a lot of people, despite what Anders had to say about Norway's immigration policy. At 4.05pm, a call was made to an emergency response unit telling them to look out for a white man in a van. They said that that description was too vague, even though they were given the van make model and registration. Norway at the time had one police helicopter. It was not dispatched. Which, I don't know how many police helicopters it's normal for a city to have, but I do know that London only has two air ambulances, which does not seem like enough. And funnily enough, one was funded entirely by the Freemasons and it has a Freemason insignia on the bottom of it. Wow. Facts. So soon Anders had gone as far as he could on land. He flashed his fake police badge quickly and convincingly enough to be given free passage to the island on a ferry towards Utøya and the Workers' Youth League,

and has hated the Workers' Youth League for a lot of reasons. Mainly, the Labour Party that they were affiliated with, which had largely run Norway since 1935, with just a couple of breaks that were filled with the Conservative Party. In the 70s, as the world was not doing super great, Norway was doing sick, because they had loads of oil. And in the early 80s, the rich people started to get quite annoyed with all the poor people constantly wanting stuff. And so the Conservative Party were voted in. The leader of the Labour Party was a woman called Gru Harlem Brukland. Gru was

basically the only woman in politics, so much so that the slogan for the campaign against her was simply, get her out. There was no need to clarify who one meant by her, because there was only one her. And for Anders, Gru was everything wrong with Norway. A woman taking a man's place and fucking everything up. Under the Conservative Party, taxes were down and individual freedom was up. But it didn't last. Before long, Gru was back, and better than ever. The Labour Party had run Norway for most of Anders' life, and he didn't like the way they had done it. So Anders wanted to teach them a very violent lesson. They were Marxists, and death was what they deserved, even if they were children. Later,

he would make a big deal between brutality and cruelty, claiming that sometimes brutality is necessary to make one's point. He got off the ferry at Utøya, armed and bristling with ammunition. He had a medallion around his neck, a red cross on white enamel. He fancied himself a modern-day crusader clawing Europe back from the jaws of the Muslims. There were 650 people on Utoya that day, and with no ceremony at all, Anders started to kill them one by one, telling them, quote, Today you will die, Marxists. Children and adults ran from the gunmen and hid all over the island. Here are some of the survivor stories.

Obviously, it's impossible to imagine being in the situation if you've never been in it. But what really struck me was the confusion. Like nobody knew what was happening. They could just hear gunshots and they don't know if it's police. They don't know if it's one shooter, two shooters, five. They have no idea what's going on. And for the most part, they're children. So the key thing to remember is the confusion. There were hundreds of people. None of them knew what was going on. All they knew was that there was a man on the island wearing a police uniform and shooting a large weapon. A lot of the time they didn't know where he was. Emma Martinovic received a text that read, he's by the school building, he's shooting through the door.

We are a group of 30 who are trying to hide. Are you safe? Emma replied that she was. And as she clung to a rock face, she sent a message to her group leader asking what she and the others should do. A one-word reply came back. Swim. By the time Emma made it to the water,

there were already bodies lying face down and many more AUF members hiding in the rocks by the water's edge. Emma told the others that they should all stuff their IDs into their bras or somewhere so that they could be identified if the worst were to happen. They all took off their clothes and began to swim. As they turned back to look at the shore, Emma spotted Anders taking aim at the swimmers. He shot them one by one. Then, realising that most of the swimmers weren't in range, he concentrated on the AUF members that were still on the beach. Emma watched as her friends were shot in the head.

Panicking but still swimming, Emma heard a friend of hers behind her say that she couldn't go on. So Emma let her climb on her shoulders and they continued on together. But then they realised that Emma was bleeding. A young boy swam up to them and said, My daddy is dead. I thought the police were supposed to be kind to us. Emma told him not to look back, just to keep swimming. Then a boat seemed to come out of nowhere. Emma and the

others were pulled into the boat and into safety. Many of those who chose to swim were rescued by civilians who had seen what was happening on the news. The police helicopter still wasn't sent, but the news helicopters sure were. Isn't that amazing? These civilians are just watching this on TV and they're like, shit, get in the boat. Yeah, yeah. Because it's like not that far off the coast and like obviously a lot of people living around there have boats. So they just like went and jumped in their boats and like went to the aid of these kids who were swimming out of the fucking path of a madman with a gun. Why the police helicopter still hasn't been sent,

I, like, don't really understand, but it wasn't. Another girl who had been on the island was Lisa Marie Husby. She was 17 on the day of the attack. And minutes before Anders stepped off the ferry, she received a call from her mum, telling her about the explosion in the capital. Lisa told her mum not to worry. They were on an island, the safest place possible.

Some of the AUF camp had wanted to return to Oslo as soon as they heard the news about the explosion, but the trains and buses weren't running. Staying on the island was the only option. Just minutes after Lisa hung up the phone, the shooting had started. Lisa Marie was stood with a few dozen others in the forest, about 50 metres away from the gunman when the shooting had begun. Lisa and those with her ran into a cabin in the forest.

By the time they got there, it had already been barricaded. Lisa joined the 46 inside. There were so many gunshots, they thought there must have been more than one shooter, and they were getting closer. Text messages were coming in frantically, telling Lisa and the others that the gunman was dressed as a police officer so they shouldn't trust anyone wearing a police uniform. When the actual police stormed the cabin and told all of the students inside to get up with their hands over their heads they were terrified but they were finally safe. Anders on the other hand was fucked.

He knew the police were coming and he wondered whether he should shoot himself or not, but then he was overwhelmed with a gut instinct to survive. This was the plan. If he killed himself, no one would ever know what he stood for. So Anders called the police himself. He had stupidly left his own phone back in the Ministry of Justice bomb van, so he picked one up off the ground and dialed the emergency services at 6.26. He told the operator, good afternoon, my name is Anders Bering-Bryvik. I am commander of the Norwegian resistance movement. Can you put me through to the Delta operations manager?

I'm on Utoya. I have completed my operations, so I want to give myself up. It's just such a pathetic attempt to like try and take back control of the situation. That's what that screams of. Absolutely. And the operator is like, I'm sorry, who are you? You're asking to speak to quite an important person. I love that. Genuinely, that's what they say. The operator told Anders that his message would be passed on, that they'd ring him back. Except they wouldn't be able to ring him back because the phone Anders had called them from did not have a functioning SIM card. It was only capable of making outgoing emergency calls.

So Anders decided that he would just keep shooting until the police eventually showed up. He was on the island unchallenged for over an hour. He killed 69 people, 33 of whom were under 18. 69 people. Fucking hell. Yeah, it's a lot. Obviously, I knew about this case before we researched it and all of that, because we're on the show and generally we're so desensitised these days to big death rate numbers, fucking COVID, obviously. But 69 people. My God. One man. When the police did make it, Anders gave himself up without a fuss. Well, he did fuss a bit about being so dehydrated that he was going to die,

but that was about it. Oh my God. Oh yeah. Yeah. I can't remember the exact wording, but he genuinely says to these police officers that he's going to die unless they give him something to drink. When he was told by police that he was suspected of murder and that he didn't have to explain himself, Anders was having none of it. Explaining himself was the whole point and explain himself he did at length. He told the police at the scene, I have sacrificed myself. I have no life after this. I may very well suffer and be tortured for the rest of my life. I shall never get out. My life ended when I ordained myself into the Knights Templar. We want to take power in Europe within 60 years. I am a commander of the Knights Templar. Our organisation was set up in London in 2002 with delegates from 12 countries.

He's so desperate to be a martyr. It's like fucking embarrassing. He's also desperate to be important and in charge of something. He loves secret societies. He loves orders. He loves titles. Loves it, loves it, loves it.

I know. And I know, I know, I know, I know that the police should obviously interview him at length, understand his, you know, his motivations, the way in which he was radicalized, all the stuff we'll come on to in a bit. But also, I just want them to be like, no, no, no, no, no one wants to hear,

no one wants to hear, you're just going to go to jail and no one is ever going to hear your fucking side of the story. I would love for that to be the case. And so after he's caught, basically, he just rambles on and on about the fucking Knights Templar, how they're not Nazis, that they supported Israel, that they weren't racists, they just wanted political Islam out of Europe,

whatever, like, fucking fuck that means. And they planned on expelling political Islam with a conservative revolution. After a while, Anders referred the police to his manifesto, explaining that he couldn't possibly explain all of his master plan just on the spot like that, saying, I have a 1500 page manifesto and that will explain it all. I can't do that right now. I'm far too busy being arrested and dehydrated. And he may sound like a radicalised person during these rambles. And he certainly is. But not in the way that you would expect.

Anders wasn't groomed by anyone. He radicalised himself from his bedroom in his mother's flat. And this is an idea that we've come across before. We talked about it in the episode that we did on the murder of Joe Cox MPx mp we've talked about it in other episodes like the dylan roof case this is definitely what we're seeing with the trend of terrorism in the modern age it's not like fucking pakistani training camps and people like being sent off somewhere where they're like radicalized by a specific person whose job role that is within a terrorist cell or something. This idea of the leaderless revolution where people are self-radicalizing through forums, through online content, that's

the wave of the future. You just create viral content and then you let people self-radicalize. It's far more efficient and definitely the future of terrorism. Anders' mother was called Vankje and not wench, like pirate wench is how I was going to say it. And then Annetta was like, no, you fool. Yeah, that's how I want to say it. Anders's father was a diplomat of all things. Jens Breivik spent time in London and Tehran before he met Anders's mother Vankja in a laundry room in Norway. Very glamorous.

Vankja got pregnant pretty swiftly after they met in the laundry room. Maybe she got pregnant in the laundry room. We don't know. So they did the natural thing and got married in a Norwegian embassy in Germany. Jens was there for a conference. It's very romantic, isn't it? I think Vanke went for literally two days and Jens was there for a week and then she went home. Nice. Efficient. Shotgun is definitely the word of the moment. Vanke wasn't particularly thrilled about the new baby. She had a daughter of her own already and Jens had three children that he didn't seem to be that bothered about. Vanke wasn't thrilled about the process of child carrying either,

often telling her friends that she was sure the baby was kicking her on purpose to torment her. But Vanke did have the baby and Anders Bering Breivik was born on the 13th of February 1979. Jens did not take any paternity leave even though it had just come into law in Norway. See the Norwegians man they've got paternity leave in the 70s. Come on. So you could call Jens old-fashioned for not taking up his paternity. I'm going to call him entirely disinterested. I would say aggressively disinterested. Yeah.

Because, like, they're just giving you leave to, like, stay home with your newborn baby and your wife. And you're like, nah, I'm just going to come to work. Thanks very much. I just love diplomating about so much. I just can't tear myself away. When Anders got older, he tended to use his mother's maiden name, which is Bering, as in Bering Straight, rather than his father's name, Breivik, because he thought that Bering sounded more mysterious and less farmy than his father's name. Because he's all about appearances as Anders. He's all about appearing to be refined and Breivik was not helping him. When Anders was six months old before he learned how to change his name, Jens moved all of them to London where they lived in a flat on Prince's Gate overlooking Hyde Park,

which, international friends, is just as fancy as it sounds. It's those like white buildings opposite the Ritz. Ooh la la. Von Kier hated it. A gilded cage is still a cage. And six months later, she was back in Oslo with her daughter, Elizabeth, and her son, Anders, awaiting a divorce. Von Kier always suspected there was something wrong with Anders. He was a calm baby, but as he got to the toddler stage, he became very whiny and clingy. But as we will learn, Vankia might not be

the most reliable narrator. Her own childhood was no picnic. Tie yourselves in because this is some of the most traumatic stuff I've ever read. Vankia's mother had contracted polio when she was pregnant. So by the time Vankia was due, her mother was almost entirely paralysed from the waist down, and that meant that Vankya had to be cut out. Vankya's mother always blamed her for her deformities, which got progressively worse as she aged. She dragged herself along the floor with two wooden stools and refused to leave the house. Vankya was sent to an orphanage as soon as she was born, where she lived for five years before it was shut down, and then she was sent to an orphanage as soon as she was born, where she lived for five years before

it was shut down, and then she was sent back home. Her mother never went out, and her father was out of a job most of the time, until he died when Vanka was just eight. At this point, her brother started beating the shit out of Vanka. She would hide behind the stove just to get away from them. It was the only place where their arms couldn't fit. And in the house that they lived, there was never any food, and there wasn't even running water. And to top it all off, when Vanka was in her teens, her mother started to hear voices.

So the second she turned 17, Vanka was out of there. She ended up in Oslo. She trained as a nurse and got pregnant. But the Swede who did the impregnating told her to get rid of it. However, Vanka didn't, and Elizabeth was born. Vanka's mum eventually died in a nursing home in the 70s, but Vanka didn't go to the funeral. In 1981, Vanka was displaying some disorganised thinking symptoms herself. She got in contact with welfare services and asked that Anders be sent to a part-time foster family on the weekends.

This was arranged by the state, and on their second visit, Vanka asked if Anders might be allowed to touch the foster father's penis occasionally, because he needed to learn about the male body, and he only ever saw female crotches thank you like not not chill at all even in the 70s 80s not a cool thing to be doing this is what i mean about her she doesn't seem to understand how to function normally in the world she doesn't see a problem with these things at all like she wasn't embarrassed to ask these people that she didn't know. She'd be like, oh, can my son touch a penis occasionally because like he doesn't have a dad.

Easiest thing in the world for her to say that. We obviously don't know what was exactly going on with Vanka, but I think it's safe to say nothing good. This young couple, luckily they weren't just a,

you know, pair of fucking sex offenders who were like, oh, yippee, we've been given permission by the fucking child's mother to sexually abuse him. They were, however, too embarrassed to report the incident, and they just took Anders on anyway, and actually found him to be quite a nice boy. Vanka, I mean, obviously, as the penis-touching incident suggests,

spoke about sex all the time. Ferociously. There are reports of her claiming that Anders insisted on lying next to her in bed as if he was forcing himself on her. You have to remember that she's making these accusations and saying these things when he is a child. Under five years old. Yeah. I mean, she has a very, very troubled relationship. It's clear to see with men and with sex. Like that's very much obvious. Vanka would also play a game with Anders where they would race to see who could get undressed the fastest. Anders would always win. Also, I wasn't sure whether to put this in or not, but I'll just put it in here when Anders grows up he buys his mum a vibrator as a present there is very clearly something not good going on here in his relationship

with his mother his relationship to sex his relationship to sex and his mother bad news bears 100% and it's all very much sparked off and propagated by Vanka herself. And yeah, nothing good about this whatsoever. One day out of the blue, Vankia decided that Anders couldn't go and live with the young couple anymore at the weekends. Her social services file read, quote, Mother is difficult, keeps demanding more. Daughter, aged nine, has started wetting herself. Anders would hit Elizabeth and his mother. If he was told off, he would smirk. And if he was hit back, he would just tell

Vankia that she couldn't hurt him. The neighbours nicknamed him the Meccano Boy because he was just pieces put together with no life in him. Haunting! Jesus, fucking neighbourhood kids with their bloody poetic bullying nicknames fucking hell i think it's grown-ups i think it's like adult grown-ups oh is it but still it's not very nice to call the abused child next door the mccarno boy no it's not nice at all absolutely not nice i just thought it was quite poetic, their reasoning behind it. Venkia tried to get both of her children fostered at one point, full-time, not just at the weekends.

But instead, they were sent to a psychiatric evaluation centre in 1983, all three of them as a family unit. Venkia was quite glad of this. She'd been trying to get Anders diagnosed with something for ages. She wasn't in a good way either. She thought of killing herself often. She'd become reclusive and her speech had started to slur. At the assessment centre, three-year-old Anders and the rest of his family were observed for four weeks. Anders' report concluded that he took no joy in life and he displayed a marked inability to enter into the spirit of games. He took no pleasure in toys.

When other children were playing, he operated alongside them, but was wholly unfamiliar with let's pretend games. This is from his report. Anders lacks spontaneity, appetite for activity, imagination or ability to empathise. Ding, ding, ding. Yeah. He has no language for expressing emotions.

He finds it difficult to express himself emotionally, but when a reaction eventually comes, it is a remarkably powerful one. Anders eventually managed to adapt to the environment and even learned how to accept praise at the centre. The people observing him determined that there was no damage done to Anders that couldn't be undone by a more stable home environment. The most unstable factor being Vankja, who the report said was, quote,

threatened by chaotic conflicts and showed signs of illogical thought when under pressure. Mentally, she has a borderline personality disorder and functions very unevenly. Given a structured situation for living, she can function well, but she is vulnerable in a crisis. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now, exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey, to help someone I've never even met.

But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me. And it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding. And this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free

on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to light some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes.

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To listen, subscribe to On The Media wherever you get your podcasts. During their time at the center, Vanka had shouted at Anders that she wished he was dead. She also talked about her sexual fantasies all the time, out loud, to anyone who would listen. The centre decided that Elizabeth could stay living with Vanka, but Anders needed to go, as the quote, profoundly pathological relationship he had with his mother was clearly the root of all of his behavioural problems. Vanka did not like this at all, and she refused to let Anders go without a fight. Jens, who had not seen his son at all since they left London three years ago, got wind of this, and applied for emergency custody of his son. This was, unsurprisingly, denied. Jens attempted

to fight for sole custody in court, but as soon as he realised that that would require quite a lot of effort, and since he had shown no interest in his son whatsoever before, he didn't really have a case. So he gave up and went back to his third wife. The centre stood by their assessment, saying that Anders' care situation is so precarious, he's at risk of developing more serious psychopathology, and we hereby restate our assessment that an alternative care situation

is necessary. But the centre is just that. A centre can't make decisions about child welfare. They can only advise. So after a year of welfare visits to Vanka's house, it was determined by the Child Welfare Board in 1984 that the necessary conditions for taking the child into care have not been met. And so, Anders stayed with Wanka in Oslo. Before the 80s, it was very rare that people sought asylum in Norway. But gradually, it started to happen. A Chilean family moved into the same apartment block as the Breiviks, and Anders made particularly good friends with their daughter Eva. Anders started school in 86. The Labour Party were back in power and Gru was in charge. Terms like state feminism

and vagina state were thrown around with the same disgust as you might hear nanny state or state socialism flung around now. Can you imagine a female prime minister? Actually, you know what, the sad thing is I truly can. If a woman was elected president, I'm sure vagina state would be in some headlines. I don't doubt it for a second. I'm sure if we go back and look at Theresa May's any affiliated tweets that people have tweeted at her, there's probably one in there that says vagina state.

At school, Anders was a real shit. Eventually, Eva managed to distance herself from him. Anders pretended not to care, but he definitely noticed. He loved to watch bees drown. He would do this in a sieve. He'd put them in a sieve and then dunk them into water and bring them up again so he could watch them drown.

He would squash ants, torture rats, he snapped the blooms off people's roses, he spat on people, and he did wheeze on the belongings of people who crossed him, including his teachers. Which is actually very common, apparently, for children who display, quote unquote, psychopathic traits. I know, obviously, we cannot diagnose anyone as being psychopathic, especially not children, but non-pro-social traits. And apparently it's a form of dominance.

They're doing it to dominate their enemies. Like a dog. Yeah, precisely. When he got to big school in 1992, Anders reinvented himself for what would be the first of many times. He went from animal torturing and pissing on stuff to baggy jeans and vandalising stuff. Anders wasn't quite filled with race hate yet, so he embraced the hip-hop wave that was the 90s with open arms. His graffiti name was Morgue, which I believe is the name of an executioner in a Marvel comic, and he happily tagged the word Morgue all over Oslo.

There were far-right skinhead types in his class, but Anders had brown friends in his graffiti gang, so he steered clear of them. He wouldn't get fully fascist until he was a bit older. He wasn't radicalised at the school gates. The Norwegian government bought apartments in both the east and west of Oslo to house refugees and other migrants. This was an attempt to limit a ghettoisation, but it didn't mean that there were no tensions. Many child refugees were ejected from Norway as soon as they turned 18, so they saw very little point in learning Norwegian. Cultures clashed and there were gangs, but in terms of capital city crime rates in the 80s and 90s, Oslo was overall pretty low. One really interesting thing about Anders Breivik,

which I'm going to keep calling him Anders Breivik mainly because he doesn't like it, he benefited from the welfare state throughout his life. Sure, he should have been fostered away from his mum, but that didn't not happen because of lack of resources. Like he went to an assessment centre for four months. He was given weekend parents. All of these things were made available to him through the welfare state, which is funded by taxes. At no point was help not offered to Anders or anyone he knew because there were too many brown people in his neighborhood taking up all the money. At no stage does that happen. No, no, no. And this is the thing we've talked about before, probably in the Joe Cox MP1, which is people look for something to blame and they often blame the black, brown and in our case, Eastern European people

living down the road rather than looking at the people who are actually in power. And in this case, like you said, it wasn't even the people in power because there was help and resources available to him. It was his fucking mum. When Breivik was 15, he was caught with spray cans in his bag that he'd bought in Denmark because they were 65% cheaper there and only a ferry away. Because Breivik had been caught twice doing graffiti already and he'd been given warnings, the third time meant that he had to be interviewed by a welfare officer. Breivik didn't give up any names or dob anyone in. He didn't even show up for the two follow-up appointments.

But it didn't matter. Word got out that he'd broken Homer Simpson's first rule of the playground. No squealing. So he had lost his graffiti friends, and quickly he went from one of the cool kids to a giant loser. He attempted to counteract this by weight training obsessively, which again is very, very typical. We see this all the time with these kind of radicalized extremists. And, you know, maybe that's kind of cool now with all the Instagram people, bodybuilders.

But in the 90s, it wasn't particularly cool. No, 90s, very heroine chic you don't want muscles you just need needles exactly and an entry in his leavers yearbook was particularly savage because it read anders used to be part of the gang but then he made enemies out of everybody and as a stake to all on getting a perfect body but we have to say he's still got quite a way to go obviously anders is a fucking dickhead but that is savage it's pretty savage isn't it and has never actually found out who wrote it so we don't know who wrote this particularly lovely message to him another consequence of his third graffiti arrest was Anders' father Jens told him that he never wanted to speak to

him again. This was the first of the extremely significant rejections that would sculpt Anders Breivik into what he became. So let's skip forward a few years now and meet young man Anders. Gone with the baggy jeans, now he was very well groomed. He even got a nose job. He wore makeup and simple suits that looked expensive, but weren't. He also was seriously considering a hair transplant, but was worried about the residual scarring, so kept putting it off. He went to commerce school for a while, but dropped out and decided to pursue becoming a millionaire full-time.

That, my friends, is a classic psychopath move. They can't stand being told what to do by people they think are beneath them, and as a result, very few stay in school. Breivik set up a marketing company with his friend and sunk all of his savings into it. However, it failed and the money was lost. This was all obviously his friend's fault though, and nothing to do with the fact that Anders was not even 20 yet. There were several other jobs in Solo Ventures, most of which involved telesales, and only one that made any real money, and that was a service through which Anders sold fake university diplomas. While he was fraudulently handing out academic accolades, he started hanging out with the Progress Party, which was initially set up as an anti-communist

stronghold in 1973 by a man called Anders Lang. And he ever so humbly called it the Anders Lang Party for major reduction in taxes, duty and public intervention. This party was openly supported by the apartheid regime after Lange's commentary on Idi Amin being simply that blacks needed whites in charge. Another of Lange's greatest hits was quote, no one who has a good time with her husband in bed deserves financial help as a result. Don't worry, we don't have to stay very long on him because Lange kicked it in 1974 and was replaced by Carl Hagen, who was better at marketing and renamed the party the Progress Party. Support for the Progress Party increased in Norway with the rise in immigration,

particularly from majority Muslim countries. Here's Hagen's vibe. This is a quote from him. The imams are against integration and interpret the Quran in a way that is dangerous to Muslims Here's Hagen's vibe. This is a quote from him. training in how to behave here. When imams preach that Norwegians are infidels, there are automatic consequences. It means, among other things, that it is the duty of Muslims to not pay taxes, that they can steal from shops with no moral scruples, and that they can tell lies. Anders Breivik liked the sound of this. Norway for Norwegians, lower taxes, more money, fantastic. So he threw himself into the get rich or die trying while also hating Muslims mentality that was very popular at the Progress Party HQ. He thought he could excel here and he started the process to rise to the top.

He wanted a leadership spot. He also met a girl called Lina. She, for some reason, found his rants about the genius of Ayn Rand endearing, and the two became an item quickly. If you do not know who Ayn Rand is, count yourself lucky, number one. And number two, the only thing you need to do is go to our website and go to the reference list for this episode, in which you will find a youtube link to a john oliver series called why is this still a thing and there's a solid eight minutes on ayn rand i'm not gonna repeat it for you because i really want to give them the views honestly because it is so good she's trash is all you need

to know absolutely and all of these we've said this before but like all of these right wing manifestos that people fucking cobble together. And as you'll see, the Anders is no different. They're all just like fucking ripped off ideologies from Ayn Rand books. Like, there's nothing new. There's no new ideology being spoken about by these people. So anyway, go watch that John Oliver piece if you want to know anything about this person. But we do want to know a bit more about Lina.

Lina had been born in New Delhi and adopted by a Norwegian family in 1979. When they adopted her, her family had actually been issued a warning that her skin would likely darken with age and that if they were worried about that, then they shouldn't take her. Yeah, I'm going to guess if she's from New Delhi, her skin's definitely not going to be just Norwegian white, the latest fucking dulex colour. She's going to be some form of brown. Yeah, and get progressively more brown as she stops being a baby. Fair warning. It happens. It is going to happen to you.

But brown skin or no brown skin. As a young adult, Lena was the poster child of the right-wing Progress Party. She was quoted in the press as saying, tougher immigration policies and strengthening the armed forces are the things I care most about. From a brown girl, this was great for them. They thought it meant that no one could call them racist. I mean, why is it as I'm reading this, the image of Preeti Patel is just creeping into my eyes? Do you know what? I nearly put in the script, it's the same trick the Tories use with Priti Patel. But I didn't. But thank you for doing it for me.

It's true. It's true. The thing is, though, obviously, it's weird that she's caught up with like white ethno-nationalism, which is very much like what's happening here. But super ultra-conservative views from like Indians or Asians in general is not that outlandish. But it is weird that she's affiliating herself with white nationalists. That's quite strange. But yes, Preeti Patel, comparisons abound. Selena and Anders shared a critical view of Islam.

Again, not that weird from somebody who is from India, especially if she has Hindu heritage. But despite this, people would often assume that Lina was Pakistani and Muslim men shouted at her to cover herself up in the streets. Lina always felt that her Norwegian-ness was questioned far more by brown immigrants than anyone else. After 9-11, the support for the Progress Party swelled, and Anders continued to climb the ladder. He wrote that Norwegians had a loser mentality, and they needed to be more American.

He described the American mentality as follows. One, you're the best. Two, you can make all of your dreams come true. And three, the only limits are those you set yourself. Whereas he said the Norwegian mentality was more like, one, don't think you're anybody. Two, don't imagine you can achieve anything. Three, don't imagine anybody cares about you.

Which, to be honest, is the most British thing I've ever read. Yeah, I was going to say, like, I do think, you know, obviously we laugh at America a lot and the American dream, blah, blah, blah. But like, I do think in the UK, particularly, I can't speak for other European countries, social mobility is like fucking non-existent. The class you're born into is probably the class you'll die in. I think he's very right. If it is similar in Norway, then that is how we think. That is how a lot of people think. You wouldn't for a second want to think that you could be even remotely considered as arrogant. That's worse than death in Britain. When we say arrogance, we mean believe in yourself or your ability to achieve anything. Or hope for something better. You know, how fucking arrogant of you. How rude.

How rude. You rude bitch. In 2002, Anders wrote, quote, It is important to make a point that Islam is a great religion on a level with Christianity and that Muslims are generally good people on a level with Christians, which for him, knowing what we know, seems pretty lenient, saying the aspects of Islam can be criticised, but being aware that the calling out the entirety of the religion is political suicide. It's a measured political move from Anders. Because he was

preparing himself for leadership, he wanted to be the acceptable face of right-wingers in Norway. But he didn't make the cut. But Lena did. Oh, ouch. Ouch, ouch, ouch. Sting. Ouch, ouch, ouch, ouch. And that, dear listeners, is major rejection number two there is just quite a lot of beautiful irony there though isn't there about a white man being beaten to his leadership post by a brown immigrant girl in a fucking far right ethno-nationalist group and you know girlfriend or no girlfriend you know he was like she only got it because she's a woman and because she's brown. Otherwise it would have been me. Oh yeah, fucking political correctness gone mad.

Even within my own fascist party, they've got me. So Adnes wrote one more blog post predicting a civil war between Norwegians and Muslims. And then he left the party. And he left Lina. Well, he didn't leave the party entirely. He just stopped hanging out at the HQ and he stopped writing for them. But he still paid his fees, kept his card and his voting rights. And by this point, he had started making big money from his fake diploma sales. Like, tax haven level of monies.

So, you know, he didn't need to cancel his fees. And whatever he didn't squirrel away on an island somewhere, Anders laundered through his mum's accounts. But despite his riches, Anders moved back in with his mum in 2006. I don't think we'll ever fully understand, not truly, the relationship between Anders and Vanka. Neither of them seem to think that there was anything wrong with it. Some suspect that Anders was somehow sexualised by his mother at an early age. But during our research, we couldn't find much more detail than that. It does seem accurate, if a bit vague.

They certainly had a symbiotic relationship that his sister Elizabeth was not a part of. Quick note on Elizabeth, she was fucking out of there, she moved to America, she's gone. She's like, fuck this shit. One Christmas in the Oslo flat, Vanka's second cousin showed up. He of course has a name, but it's so similar to so many other names in this story that it will just be confusing. So we're just going to leave it and call them Vanker's second cousin. Yeah, he's not that important. What you do need to know about this second cousin was that he was a Freemason.

And Anders loved the idea of the Freemasons. He loved the secret and, more importantly, the superiority. And most importantly, to be a Freemason, you have to be a Christian. Anders begged this cousin to recommend him to the Masons. But for some complicated reason, he couldn't really do that. But Anders didn't give up hope, and he kept pestering away. He lost interest in his fountains of money and his fraud company folded. He stayed in his room and played World of Warcraft for 16 or 17 hours a day.

Anders liked structure, hierarchy, medals and costumes, and he could get all of those in the game without having to put pants on. Eventually, he was accepted into the Freemasons the following year, which was obviously right up his street. He's got temples, gold, swords, anti-Semitism. He was right at home. And if anyone wants to come to me about the Freemasons, I'd love to do a mini-series on it. I went to the Masonic Temple once. Have I told you this?

No. Oh no, maybe you did. About a choir. Was it with your school? No, no, no, no. I used to work at a charity that got given some money by the Masons. And as a thank you, you have to go to a reception at the Masonic Temple. It's in Covent Garden. They filmed loads of James Bond films there. It's quite an imposing building. And they give you a tour. And I have never been more convinced that it was a cult than I was at the end of that tour. Like the whole thing is very structured around them convincing you that it's all really chill and they're really nice. Like the one thing I really remember is the guide was like, and a lot of people think that the Freemasons use the Star of David.

But as you can see, the star behind me actually has five points and not six. But right behind him on his other shoulder was very definitely a six-pointed Star of David star. He just didn't talk about it. He just distracted you with the other one. Sleight of hand. Sneaky. I was talking to one, because you can't be a mason if you're a woman. You can be a lady mason, separate but different.

So the chief executive of the charity I went with is of Indian heritage, and he was talking to one of the actual masons, and this mason's obviously trying to recruit him, right, because they get double points for people of colour because it makes people think the Freemasons aren't racist. And he was like, oh, we've got a lodge in India, you know?

And my boss was like, oh, right. And he was like, and do you know, they wear clothes just like me and you. What? Where do you want me to go with this? That's amazing. That's so amazing. Wow.

Fantastic. Most bizarre afternoon of my entire life. Excellent. So I don't understand them, but Anders most certainly did. He loved them. He was right at home, but he didn't spend as much time at the Masonic Lodge as he might have done because he was quite busy with his World of Warcraft crusade. It was all he did for five whole years. The game was all he needed. When he did occasionally

emerge for drinks with friends that he magically somehow seemed to have maintained, he insisted on telling everyone how Muslims were taking over Europe because they had so many children. And he also loved talking about how the Labour Party had ruined everything and created a feminised matriarchy that made it impossible to get rich at the same time. A feminised matriarchy that made it impossible to get rich at the same time. A feminised matriarchy just by like, you know what, women should probably be paid the same. Stop pushing your feminised matriarchy down my throat. I'm trying to get rich, Hannah. You and your vagina state. Anders countered the assumption that he was just a bit nuts by being extremely well read.

He knew the Quran back to front, even if he did bend the meaning to suit his own agenda. But hey, who doesn't do that? He knew all about Marxism and multiculturalism too. He told his friends that he was planning on collating all of his wondrous knowledge into a book. This book would become his manifesto. But he didn't actually write a great deal of it. He nicked it. He nicked it from Stormfront, Gates of Vienna,

and Jihad Watch, all of the usual suspects. He moved his World of Warcraft character into the real world. This was his chance to be a real crusader. And as tippity-top most favouritist online super right winger to steal from was fellow Norwegian called Fjordman,

like Goldman, Silverman, Spiderman, or as Breivik referred to him, the Dark Prophet of Norway. Such a dork. Honestly, honestly, honestly, he is dork-tastic. Such a fucking dork. I hate him. They shared a lot of the same views. Fjordman wrote at length about how when he was a child, Norway was 100% white and it was not overrun with pesky brown people and he was a

minority in his own country. One of the things that they did disagree on was immigration policy. Fjordman wanted to ban all immigration henceforth and Anders wanted all of the Muslims deported. When writing his book, Anders reached out to Fjordman, persistently asking for advice and inviting him to debate. But apart from one very short email, Fjordman never responded. This is our third rejection. Anders couldn't even get a fascist on the internet to be his friend. So he threw himself full force into his writing. And by writing, we mean ripping off Fjordman. Another website he spent a lot of time on during this period was document.no, which was run by another Norwegian, a former Marxist turned critic of Islam. In 2009,

Anders made a post about the Western media ignoring Muslim riots, and it went down a treat. Just like we all love a like on Instagram, Anders enjoyed the dopamine spike of people commenting on his post, so he kept posting, and posting, and posting, about white genocide in South Africa, the decimation of Christian ideals, etc, etc, you get the picture. And he kept going until he got banned from the site. And what's that? That's rejection number four, people. I hope you're keeping count.

And after this final rejection, Anders started to research how to make a bomb and started to hatch his plan that unfolded on the 22nd of July 2011, that began with him emailing out his book. He called it 2083, a European Declaration of Independence. The first hundred pages were all lifted from Fjordman essays. Very little original thought is included. But here is the general gist of the 1500 pages that Breivik was so proud of. He wrote it under the nom de plume, Andrew Berwick. Maybe being English is even more fascist than being Norwegian. Don't know. Why did he pick that name? It's very, very English, isn't it?

And the whole manifesto is also written in English rather than in Norwegian. I guess that's good marketing, isn't it? You just reach more people with that kind of choice, I suppose. I suppose so. It also begins, quote, the men the European public admires most extravagantly are the most daring liars. The men they detest most violently are those who try to tell them the truth. He renamed political correctness as cultural Marxism and insisted that the only way for Western Europeans to reclaim their native lands from the chomping jaws of Islam

was surprise, surprise, to return to the cultural values of the 1950s when women were women and being gay was illegal. I don't know if you guys have come across this. If you have, I'm very sorry for you. If you haven't, here is some more background reading you can go and do there is a theory that is front and center of a lot of these kind of far right you know white supremacist groups called the great replacement theory it seems to have been started by a French writer called Renaud Camus a lot of people credit him as being the one who came up with this essentially what it is is this idea of kind of reverse colonization and how women and feminism are to blame for why

Western European countries are overrun with us bloody brownies. And the reason is because feminism means that women no longer want to play a part and play along with traditional gender roles. And therefore, they've become far too emancipated with all of their jobs. They don't want to stay home and have loads and loads of kids. And so that means population is falling. That means white population specifically is falling. And therefore, the government uses us as a reason to increase immigration. So it's, of course, it's your fault, Hannah,

for having a job and not having 10 kids by the age of 30 what have you fucking done what have i done indeed and this particular theory obviously relates specifically to white supremacists but this kind of misogynistic return to traditional gender roles is pervasive in all extremist thinking whether it's from is to people like Anders, like it is the bread and butter of any kind of radicalised militant group. The rest of Anders's manifesto, it's everything you might expect. He talks about how women use sexual harassment charges to keep men in line. We do do that, you know, we do us sneaky women.

Vagina state. Oh God. He also says that Muslims as people aren't the problem, they are the water. The system of society is the leak, so it's society that needs to be fixed. But there are some unexpected items in the manifesto. Anders insists that knitting and needlework need to be learned by all men in the new Norway to ensure gender equality. And of course, quote, the re-implement of the patriarchy. Excellent. I love that he's like, oh, what skills do women have? That if men had them too, then women, we don't need them for anything except babies. Oh, knitting.

If we can all knit, then we don't need women in the workforce. I just don't even know what to say. Whatever. Okay, cool. Cool, bro. There's so much more. He warned his followers that, quote, you must familiarise yourself with the concept of killing women,

even very attractive women. He also tries to do a 48 laws of power situation. Have you read 48 laws of power? No. Don't. I'm reading it at the moment it's a book like kanye west talks about it all the time so does jay-z it's basically it teaches you how to manipulate those around you it's like basically how to get what you want by being a fucking

asshole like that's like generally the point and i'm not reading it because i manipulate people i'm reading it because i have quite often been manipulated and not seen it coming. Got it. So I'm trying to like arm myself with the... It's like reading the game. That's what I'm doing. But I'm not enjoying reading it at all. It's definitely not marketed towards women. Anders tries to do a similar thing and he warns his readers to always hide their actual goal with a decoy goal.

And he thought he had really cracked the code of existence by playing World of Warcraft in his childhood bedroom in his mum's house. Amidst the hundreds of pages of plagiarised material, Breivik set out his plan for the phases of civil war and how the Knights Templar were the ones to build the new Norway. Anyone could join the Knights Templar, according to Anders, which was an honourable organisation with no central command apart from Andrew Berwick, obviously, who held the highest rank that no one else was allowed. Joining the Knights Templar was easy. All the recruit had to do was get hold of a large stone altar, a skull, which could be a replica if absolutely necessary, a sword and a wax candle

to represent God and the light of the world, Jesus Christ. Once all of those easy items had been sourced, the hopeful knight just needed to print out Anders' manifesto and read it out loud. Once initiated, a knight could be handed all sorts of titles, including Distinguished Destroyer of Marxism, Saboteur Master, or win an award for intellectual intelligence. Now, you might remember that Anders told police the Knights Templar was set up by 12 delegates in London. As far as anyone can tell, this is entirely untrue. Whether Anders believes it existed or not became pretty crucial in his trial. Was he insane? Did he truly believe that he was the head of a secret order of knights that

didn't exist? Or was he lying? Had he made up the Knights Templar to make it seem as though he wasn't a quote-unquote lone wolf. If he was knowingly lying, then he was without question criminally responsible for his actions. He made it very clear from the off that he felt very disdainful towards the proceedings. And by the proceedings, we're talking about his fucking trial for the murder of many, many people. He opened with, quote, I do not recognize a Norwegian court of law because your mandate has come from parties that support multiculturalism. Anders particularly didn't like that the judge was a close friend of Gru's sister.

The second day of the trial was the moment he had been waiting for. His whole life had led up to this point. Anders stood up to read his statement and asked that the judge not interrupt him. He began by saying, quote, I stand here today as a representative of the Norwegian and European resistance movement. I speak on behalf of Norwegians who do not want our rights as an indigenous population to be taken away from us. The media and the prosecutors maintain that I have carried out the attacks because I'm a pathetic malicious loser,

that I have no integrity, and that I'm a notorious liar with no morals, that I'm mentally ill, and therefore be forgotten by other cultural conservatives in Europe. He was allotted half an hour, but he droned on for much longer than that. And the most standout of his claims was that it was unfair of the press to call him a child murderer because he hadn't killed anyone

under the age of 14. He called his attack the most sophisticated and spectacular attack in Europe since the Second World War, saying, I and my nationalist brothers and sisters represent all that they fear, that they want to scare others off doing the same thing. He claimed the Norwegians were never asked if they wanted refugees, never asked if they wanted to offer asylum to those fleeing war-torn countries, so therefore the decision of the Labour Party to lend a hand was undemocratic and forced Breivik to act on behalf of his people, his religion, his city and his country. He rounded off his 13-page statement demanding to be acquitted of all his charges.

When cross-examined, he was asked if he was religious, to which he replied, I am a militant Christian and not particularly religious, but I am a bit religious. We want a Christian cultural heritage, Christian religious instruction in school and a Christian framework for Europe. It literally makes no sense. No. And the irony of wanting to replace a religious fanaticism he abhorred with a religious fanaticism he approved of does seem to go entirely over his balding head. Many psychology experts took the stand at the trial and heaps of diagnoses were flung around. Anders was assessed by two teams of experts in the run-up to his trial. The first team found that he was psychotic.

The other found that he wasn't. Breivik himself had absolutely no interest in being found to be insane. He wanted all of Norway to know that he was rational and that his views were valid, not psychotic. Psychotic disorders often invoke unusual or extreme beliefs, but there is a difference between a delusion and an overvalued idea that consumes a life. This is what it hangs on for me. If Anders wasn't deluded, then why did he make up the Knights Templar?

I really think it's because he just wanted to belong. Yeah. He just wanted to be part of something and he couldn't get fascists on the internet to want to be on his team. So he invented a team. Exactly. It's like making up a girlfriend like all those incels do or whatever. It's just fulfilling this fantasy. I don't think that he's so delusional that he believes it's true, but I think it was a way to make himself feel better. And also to grant authenticity to his cause. It sort of skips over the fact that he's been pushed out of every single group he's ever been part of. But I think his whole vibe and why he doesn't want to be found insane

is he wants people to understand that he's logical. He's made a logical conclusion as a logical person because what is happening in Norway is so out of hand. Absolutely. And I also think you nailed it when you said about that kind of authenticity because I think we can tell with a lot of these kind of white supremacist far-right groups

and you see it in Anders' own rhetoric, history, heritage, legacy, tradition, these are all words and ideologies that are very important to them. So just to be able to link it back to a historical movement, to a modern day group, I think it lends what he wants, which is credibility, authenticity and heritage to his plans. Because he wants to be like, well, it's not just me, my nationalist brothers and sisters, we all think this,

but he can't even get them to stand with him, you know? The second team of psychiatrists, psychologists, mental health wizards, deemed Anders to be not psychotic, but actually to have a severe narcissistic personality disorder. And personality disorders cannot dismiss criminal responsibility. Symptoms of mental illness show up in obsessions and the other way around. But there is a clear line between psych of mental illness show up in obsessions and the other way around but there is a clear line between psychotic mental illness and personality disorders like antisocial personality disorder of which sociopathy and psychopathy are little umbrella terms underneath i know which side i think anders breivik falls on but it annoys me that that is what he wants i don't think he's insane i think he has an overvalued

idea. I do think he's got a narcissistic personality disorder. 100%. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, we've talked about insanity so many times. We also touched upon it in last week's episode. But the idea is, did this person know the difference between right and wrong? Or was their mental illness so severe that it skewed their perceptions to be able to form intent to commit a crime and as breivik knew exactly what he was doing was a crime and he had full intent to do what he did he wrote a fucking manifesto about it it's also i think dangerous for us to assume that all anonymous beliefs are delusions they're very real quite a lot of the time and shouldn't be taken lightly it's very easy easy to be like, oh, well, he's just nuts.

Might not be. But like everything, this is filled with quite a lot of issues. What counts as an anomalous belief is believing that you can come back from the dead anomalous. Is murder being honourable anomalous? It's such a difficult cultural relativism exercise of what counts as an extreme overvalued belief and what is just normal in the culture in which you live absolutely each of brivik's victims were also given their moment in court their names and ages were read out along with facts about them the autopsy reports and eulogies lasted a week 911 calls that were made from the island were also played in court.

One of them lasted for three minutes and 50 gunshots were heard by the court. Thirteen people died in just those three minutes. The trial came to a close on the 24th of August 2012. Anders Breivik gave a fascist salute from the dock in what would probably become one of the most famous pictures of him. The court concluded that Breivik's beliefs were not delusions. They were not culturally implausible either. For charges of terrorism and killing 77 people on the 22nd of July 2011, Anders Breivik was sentenced to 21 years in prison. Which might not sound like a lot, but Hold Your Viking worships, because the Norwegian justice system is actually pretty sick. 21 years is the absolute maximum that anyone can get for anything, except genocide and other war

crimes. But it can be extended, kind of indefinitely. But it has to be in five-year increments after an assessment. Only 94 people, Anders Breivik included, have been sentenced to this preventative detention out of a population of over 5 million people. So basically, as long as Anders is still deemed to be a danger to society, he will stay in prison. Norwegian prison is probably not what most of us would envision a prison to be. And it's one of the major reasons I am a slut for Norway. Norway operates a restorative justice system. The people who commit crimes are problems that need to be fixed, not just locked away forever. And there are lay judges and professional judges in the courts. Jury trials are kept for the Court of Appeal only.

So there's a panel of lay judges who are just normal people. And their verdict is just as important as the professional judge in the eyes of the law. They can't be overruled. The UK and the US justice systems are based on retribution. The punishment fitting the crime. Or in other words, an eye for an eye. People are punished first, restored second. But in Norway, rehabilitation is the name of the game. Inmates have jobs, they can ski, cook,

play tennis. James Conway, a former superintendent of a prison in New York, said that the only way Norwegian prisons could be more liberal was to give the inmates the keys. I've read a lot of articles about Norwegian prison systems, some from American journalists, and some of them are quite scornful about the Norwegian system. One of them I read that was like, well, as an American and moral person, I find this disgusting. But the problem is you can scoff at it all you want. You can't ignore the statistics. If the aim of the prison system is to reduce crime rates,

then the Norwegian system totally shits on literally everyone else. The re-offence rate in Norway is less than 20%. That's one of the lowest in the world. In the UK, the recidivism rate is 45%. And in the USA, 76% of prisoners are re-arrested within five years of their release. You can't argue with that. I'm sorry. I understand this emotional need to punish people who have hurt you, who have done things that you emotionally feel horrendous about. I understand that. But it doesn't work.

Yeah. If the point is of prisons to make society safer, then a lower re-offending rate is what makes society safer. Unless you're just going to kill everybody who commits any crime exactly and i think that people's minds on this can't be changed with the facts that's the thing because i can't remember what i was listening to it might have been a youtube documentary i was watching but basically they were saying that even small changes you don't have to go as liberal as allowing them to ski and stuff like that conjugal visits in the u.s all the evidence showed that when you allow conjugal visits re-offending rates plummet because people stay connected to their families and especially to their spouses and their children. And it saves so much money for the penal system, but they don't want to do it.

In lots of states, they've cancelled it because they're like, no, it's too cushy. It's too nice to the prisoner, even if it means a positive impact for society. I just think people's minds on this can't be changed by facts. They're too emotionally wrought up in it. It's true. And I understand the emotional argument because a lot of people will be like, oh, well, like if prison's so great in Norway,

like more people are going to want to go to prison. Why is the re-offence rate so low if that's true? Like that's not an argument either. We have to remember that things are criminal because they shock the common conscience, not the other way around. The justice system is constructed by people because of things that offend us as people. So why are we still locking other people up and throwing away the key?

It doesn't work. And our emotional need for retribution is damaging. And I'm drawing a line in the sand. We need to get over it. Breivik has been kept in isolation for his whole sentence. He has three cells, one for sleeping, one for studying, and one for exercising. He is also allowed to exercise outside every day. He has video games, TV, newspapers, food, access to a phone,

but he is not allowed to use the internet. He has been allowed to build a gingerbread house though for a competition. He is also not allowed to receive letters from any admirers or sympathizers but he does have phone calls with a lady friend. He's still not happy though and he actually won a human rights violation case. A court found that his extended solitary confinement posed a threat to his mental health and we haven't been able to find out exactly what happened as a result of this verdict, but a lot of people were very unhappy about it, as you can imagine. Anders Breivik is no longer a Christian. He started worshipping Odin instead.

Of course he has. Of course he has. And he's also actually no longer an Anders, because he changed his name to Flotod Hansen. Something like that. There's now a memorial on Utoya and the Workers' Youth League has hosted its summer camp there again since 2015. The massacre on Utoya and the explosion at the Ministry of Justice

along with the compilation of other people's work Anders slapped his own name on have unfortunately inspired others. Breivik has been mentioned in a number of manifestos, notably that of the Christ Church shooter. There was an allusion that the pair had been in contact before the attack on the mosque in New Zealand, but given that Anders is in isolation and everything he sees is censored, I think that's very unlikely. I don't think it's true. Terrorism doesn't work if we don't talk about it. Anders knew that. That's why he did it. He described his trial as his stage to the world. But we can't ignore terrorism either. We have to examine it. And Anders is taking advantage of that too. He's been in contact several times with Usna Seinster, author of One of Us. At first he wrote

to her congratulating her, then he mocked her and then he presented her with an offer. If she published his diaries she could keep all of the money and he would give her an unedited exclusive interview with himself. Who does that remind you of? Who asked us to do that? Hmm. Rhymes with Snotsky. Oh, God. I think that illustrates that he is a true narcissist, and a narcissist can't stand the idea of someone else being in charge of their narrative. Anders signed off this letter to Usser, he said, with narcissistic and revolutionary wishes. Big sigh.

Big sigh. Fucking hell. What a twisted individual. There's not much more to say apart from everything we've said in this incredibly long episode of Red Handed. We hope you guys have enjoyed it. It's a lot, a lot to take in, but a lot to follow up on. And there are some really interesting themes here that Hannah and I are particularly excited about exploring over the course of the rest of the year as well in various different forms which will hopefully be able to tell you a bit about soon rather than later so eyes peeled ears peeled all of that stuff if you can't wait for these various new projects to materialize in front of your eyes and your ears you can head on over to patreon.com slash redhanded, where you can sign up to become a wonderful patron of the show. And if you do that, for every single tier that you elevate yourself,

you will get more and more delicious redhanded content. So head on over, check it out. And here are some lovely people who have already done so. Got lots of thank yous to say. Probably in horribly wrong pronunciations, but let's try. Thank you so much. Sarah Hamlin Baldwin, Morgan Rennie, Sophie Gibbons, Amanda Kirsten, Gull, Meg, Ava Maria Stenkamp, Amy Louise, Endo, Kimberly, Hannah German, Ali, Brittany Hill, Alana, Elena, Ekle, Shannon Davies, Diana Brito, Georgia Sewery, Carrie Puchta, Amy Lees, Julia Farinas, Ellen Webster, Kaylee Toyer, Mercedes Schreiner, Sean Wilson, Louise Banks, Tara Barrett, Jen Cabrera, Gwen Skelton, Martha Von Esmarch, Sophie Ellison-12, Julian, Naila Ahmad. Oh, Naila. It's Naila from Book Week Scotland or Scottish Book Week. She'll tell me off. I'm so sorry. Liana Witherspoon, Roxanne Steele, Rachel West, Charlotte Meager, Lucy Jackson,

Aisha Ellis, Ciara, Ciara, Chiara, I'm sorry, Chloe Hasey, Kaylin Brown, Rachel Foy, Kimberly Grundy, Lisa Brown, Noor Shamira, Ryan, Wendy Whitsett, Jessica Hunt, Carson Hoskinson, Claire Clifford, Jessica Mitchell, Aoife Priest, Maggie Voorhees, Laura George, Amanda Kay, Sam Marshall, Brianna Kemper, Andrea Milano, Sarah Absher, Charlie Otter, I love otters, otters are my phone background, Laura Leach, Patricia Reeves, Kelly Green, Raphael Davitsky, Grace Bodkin, Lillian Nguyen, Charlotte Dwejerdjul-Ross, sorry, Isabel, Sierra Ingersoll, Annette Dimitroff, Amber, Ms. P Soup, Laura Searshuler, Casey Crow, Katie Labato, Rachel Smith, Klutz, Paulina Sadeka, Ahmed Abdi, Mopple, Shannon Gabriel, Oh, Gabrielle is more likely. Scott McMillan, Nathan Fernandez, Claire Dombrowski, Leah Shona Byrne, Hannah Louise Wan, Laura Homsey, and Amy Charlton.

Thank you ever so much for supporting the show. Narcissistic and revolutionary wishes. We'll see you next time. Goodbye. Bye. Bye. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame,

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