RedHanded - Episode 194 - Ivan Milat: The Real Wolf Creek

Episode Date: April 22, 2021

Between September 1992 and November 1993 the remains of seven backpackers were found dotted around Australia’s Belanglo State Forest. The long putrefied bodies had all been shot multiple times by the same .22 calibre rifle, some had snapped spines, others had been used as target practice. Despite all signs pointing to the Milat family, the real challenge for police was finding which of the ten Milat brothers to point the finger at... 1 week of FREE shipping on all merch kicks off Fri 23 April! redhandedshop.com  BOOK! Pre-order your RedHanded book here: https://linktr.ee/RedHanded_Book  For tonnes of bonus content: patreon.com/redhanded  Sources: redhandedpodcast.com    See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Get ready for Las Vegas-style action at BetMGM, the king of online casinos. Enjoy casino games at your fingertips with the same Vegas strip excitement MGM is famous for when you play classics like MGM Grand Millions or popular games like Blackjack, Baccarat and Roulette. With our ever-growing library of digital slot games, a large selection of online table games and signature BetMGM service, there's no better way to bring the excitement and ambiance of Las Vegas home to you than with BetMGM Casino. Download the BetMGM Casino app today.

BetMGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. 19 plus to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact ConnexOntario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor. Free of charge.

BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hannah. I'm Suriti. And welcome to Red Handed, live from two completely different locations. If this sounds a little bit different to usual, your ears are lying to you. We've always sounded like this.

Please don't email. It makes me sad. Yes, we know, guys. We know. We know. We're working on getting the sound back to where it normally is. It's because we're in a transition period. Hannah is in the office.

I'm still at home. Soon we shall be together and it will be the magical promised land of podcasting. And we can't fucking wait for that. But you're just going to have to bear with us until the builder has completed the flooring of my new house. I think we may be the only professional podcasters to have never recorded in a studio in the United Kingdom. We've only done it in LA. In four years of Red Handed, we have only recorded an episode together in a studio one time and one time only. That's it. Yeah. So I can't fucking wait. It's going to be amazing. It's going to be completely magical. We can't wait. It's going to be all those things I

just said. So let's leave that aside for the moment. Like Hannah said, please don't message us and tell us the sound sounds weird. We know. But that's not what you're here for. You're here to hear us talk about a horrible murder. But before we get there, we're going to tell you about the book again. Remember the deal. We're going to talk about it for a year at least.

So guys, if you haven't ordered the book yet, that makes me sad. Why haven't you ordered the book yet? Just come on. Think about it. There's a link right there with a whole link tree of links from where to purchase this book as a pre-order. We know it's not out till September, but it really, really makes a massive difference. If you were to just go and pre-order it now, please. Yeah, please go and pre-order it. We actually had a book meeting this very day,

and we learned that books only come out on Thursdays. In the UK. That's fucking mental. US Tuesdays. Crazy town. Who knew that apart from every literary agent and publisher listening to this, of which there are probably at least six. Definitely. We didn't know. We're learning all these things. You shall learn them with us as we learn them. And one of the things we've learned

is that pre-orders are super fucking extremely important. So help us out. Help your girls out. That's it. Book chat done. Book chat done. Please go order. That's it. Should we talk about a serial killer instead now? Yes. And actually, we have to talk about something very close to your heart before we can do that. We are talking about hitchhiking for the first time in quite some very long times.

So that's just where we're going to kick off this episode with some classic debunks. And before I even begin, I am not condoning hitchhiking. No, and nor am I. Don't hitchhike. I will never hitchhike again. I promise. I swear it. How many times are you going to lie to my face? I promise. I promise. This is the last time. In her book, Killer on the Road, Violence on the American Interstate, Ginger Strand, which sounds, there are so many food-based names in this episode that are just...

It also sounds like an e-salon hair colour. Yes, yes. I've been doing a lot of looking at paint colours recently, and it could also be a paint colour. Great name. Love it. What Ginger Strand says in her book is she actually relieves soroutes everywhere by asserting that hitchhiking is not actually as dangerous as we think it is. According to Ginger, we've never actually had any good evidence that hitchhiking

is a particularly dangerous thing to do. It turns out that hitchhikers are not actually overrepresented in any crime statistics that you might come across. I think what she's basically saying is like at the time of abduction and murder, you're no more likely to be hitchhiking than doing quite a lot of other things, contrary to popular belief. Which like I find quite difficult to believe, but like I've linked the article. It's a New York Times one. You can go read it.

But what isn't hard to believe is the stigma surrounding hitchhiking. We've all heard it. It is victim blame central. If something happens to you while you are hitchhiking, it will inevitably be portrayed as your fault because you got in a car with a stranger. And when it comes to true crime narratives, everyone's pretty keen to avoid the victim blame situation.

But for some reason, when it comes to hitchhikers, that all sort of goes out the window, which I think is quite interesting. The hitchhikers out of all of the victim groups are accepted by quite a lot of people to have been truly asking for it. So much so that police officers, this is unbelievable, police officers at Rutgers University, which is in New Jersey, I believe, handed out leaflets to hitchhiking women that read, If I were a rapist, you'd be in trouble. I think of all of the people handing out pieces of paper that say I might be a rapist on it, police officers should be at the bottom of that fucking list. Like what the fuck is that?

Oh my god. Who designed this leaflet and then went through the process of printing it out, standing over a photocopier, making multiple photocopies, putting it in the hands of police officers to go out. There were so many stages at which someone could have just been like, oh, really? Is this what we're doing? Yeah, exactly. Well, maybe we don't need to remind women of the constant threat of rape. Like maybe that's not something we need to use our tax dollars for. It's just be like, oh, don't go outside because you will eventually be raped.

There's nothing you can do to avoid it, apart from stop gating in cars. And just when you thought you were safe, I'm going to hand you this leaflet that says, if I were a rapist, you'd be raped and in trouble right now. Yeah, you'd be in trouble, but I would get away with it because I am a white man. Oh my God, this is unbelievable. What the fuck, man. Rookers. Though it is pretty clear where the blame lies.

Hitchhiking might not be as dangerous as we think it is, but being a woman certainly seems to be. That said, in Murderville, serial killer show, there are a lot of hitchhiker-killing big hitters. Ed Kemper is the first one that comes to mind. Colleen Stan was coached into a car by Cameron Hooker. The West's picked up roadside victims. The list goes on and on. And up there in the Psychopath Hall of Fame is today's subject, Ivan Milat. I think that he, and this could be because for reasons we'll go on to discuss, we don't actually know that much

about his childhood and we only have interviews with his siblings about what he's like. But I think he is a stone cold psychopath. Like I genuinely think there is something different about the way his brain works. Oh, 100%. I also just have to say this now. I know he's a horrible serial killer. Spoilers. But I really love saying the name Ivan Milat.

Also, unfortunately, in a 90s kind of way, he's quite attractive. Oh, no. Yeah, yeah. I don't feel good about it. No, and nor should you. But, you know, here we are. So I like saying his name and Hannah back in the 90s would maybe not have said no. I don't know.

I don't want to put words in her mouth. But Ivan Milat. I feel like whenever I say Ivan Milat, it reminds me. want to put words in their mouth. But Ivan Milat. I feel like whenever I say Ivan Milat, it reminds me and actually something else in this episode also reminds me of this, that episode of The Simpsons where they go to Australia. Yeah, yeah. I see you've played Knifey Spoonie before. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Ivan Milat. That's a terrible Australian accent. I apologise. Let's move on swiftly. So Milat is an outlier in terms of serial killers because he killed totally indiscriminately. We know often serial killers have a very specific type, a very specific

kind of person that they like to go after. But Malat killed men, women, Australians, Germans, English, Welsh, blonde, dark head. He didn't really care as long as he could get them in his car. One unfortunate soul, with a possibly maybe even more unfortunate name than Ginger Strand, was a man named Paul Onions. Paul Onions! His name is Paul Onions! When I first read that, I was like, oh my God. Like, obviously, making jokes about victims, not funny. But his name is Paul Onions!

It's true. It's true. Would it be better or worse if it was Paul Bunyan, though? Because then everyone would laugh at him about that. We've had Ginger Strand, Paul Onions, and we've got one more food-based name coming up. And I feel like if Ginger Strand, Paul Onions, and the lady who's coming in later, whose name's Joanne Berry, they could all just live together and make chutney forever,

and it would just be a very happy time for them. I mean, why not? A little thruple. make chutney forever, and it would just be a very happy time for them. I mean, why not? A little thruple, a chutney thruple. A chutney thruple. I like it. So Paul Onions ended up in Ivan Milat's car in January 1990. Paul, who was a British national, was travelling around Australia and headed, as most Brits do, to a fruit farm,

where he planned on working as a fruit picker. And his mode of transportation to get to this farm was going to be hitchhiking. Yeah, he starts in Sydney, he needs to get to Canberra. Classic, just going to hitchhike. It's completely like normal. Australia is a part of the Commonwealth, which means that Brits have a pretty favourable visa situation over there. British people can go over to Australia and work for a year with basically no issues border policy wise. If they want to stay for longer, they also totally can. One of my favourite variations of airport, airport? Is that what that show is called? Is Australian airport, because they are just so

fucking like no one can come in and you can't bring this in you cannot bring this thing into this geographically isolated country yeah have you been to a farm in the last 48 weeks etc so usually brits like we said they tend to go over to australia work on a farm or something similar and obviously it can be all right, but I'm assuming it can also be absolute hell because Australia is fucking hot and bananas are bloody heavy. But they seem to love it. I know quite a lot of people who have done this fruit picking situation.

And I think it's like, yeah, it can go one of two ways. It's never going to be amazing because you'll be bitten by bugs forever and it's boiling. But some of them are really, really awful. Like the conditions are terrible and blah, blah, blah. But I do know someone who did it on a banana farm. And apparently when you're carrying the bananas from the banana tree, tree? Yeah, tree. To the banana storage house, that process of carrying it is called humping. So the guy I know who did it, he was like, yeah, I just humped bananas for six months. Did you? Brilliant, brilliant. So yeah, this is what the Brits were up to. And in the 80s and 90s, Australia had a reputation for being a pretty safe country. And so, of course, hitchhiking was very commonplace especially for cash-strapped backpackers

travelers loved australia and most of the time australia loved travelers the original backpackers hostel is actually in sydney's king's cross though we did talk about it in the peter falconio episode about how there was that horrible case of that guy who like fucking burnt down that hostel and murdered a bunch of backpackers because he didn't like them. So yeah, you know, swings and roundabouts. Australia's got mixed feelings. British people specifically. There's just fucking loads of them in Australia because it's easy to get over there.

And work visas and also the English language because British people are lazy. What you hear about a lot these days is, again, a lot of people who've done this, is people go to Australia, they buy a banger of a car and then they drive it across Australia over like six months to a year and then they sell the car at the other end for like scrap or whatever. Again like the Peter Falconeo case. Yes exactly. In the 80s 90s hitchhiking was a bit more normal than that and it was certainly very normal for Mr Paul Onions. So he stood on the side of the road and stuck his thumb out. He ended up getting the ride he wanted from one Ivan Milat. The ride turned out to be very much not what Paul Onions wanted at all. But it started out all right with normal stranger talk,

as they zoomed away from Sydney towards Canberra along the Hume Highway. But then the vibe changed. Ivan Milat, who had actually told Paul Onions that his name was Bill, started asking some uncomfortable feeling questions. Milat asked Onions whether anyone was waiting for him in Canberra. Did anyone know where he was going? And also, if Mr Paul Onions had any special forces training. As the duo approached the Belangelo State Forest,

which I remember how to say it because it's like a bungalow on an angle. And I think it also comes up in that Simpsons episode. This was the second word that reminds me of it. Does it? Belangelo. So as they approached the bungalow on an angle state forest, Milat pulled over and told Paul Onions that he just needed to grab a cassette tape, because we are in the 90s, that he wanted to listen to. But Milat

did not whip out a cassette tape. He whipped out a gun and a length of rope and said, this is a robbery. Paul Onions was having absolutely bloody none of it and he managed to escape the car, albeit leaving all of his worldly possessions behind him, including his passport. But he got himself out of the car and started to run, shouting, help me, he's got a gun. As if he was trying to outrun an alligator, Paul Onions zigzagged all over the road and managed to flag down another car driven by local chutney lover lady Joanne Berry. Can't confirm if she actually enjoys chutney. I love that he ran in a zigzag. Yeah, smart. I'm like, yes, Paul Onions, that's what you've got to do. Don't be like, what was that fucking kid's name in Game of Thrones? Bloody Rickon. Rickon, why are you running in a straight

fucking zigzag? Oh, now look, you've been, spoilers, you've been shot in the back. Excellent. I believe that Paul Onions may have spent some time in the Navy, which is why he would have known to zigzag run. Top tips. Everybody take note. But I also might have that wrong. No promises. As Paul Onions is running towards his saviour, Joanne Berry,

Millat fired two shots in Paul's wake. Joanne Berry took Paul Onions to the nearest police station where he told officers the whole story. And then, literally nothing happened. There was no report filed, or if it was filed, it disappeared before it would have come in super useful a few years later. Two years later, to be precise. When on the 19th of September 1992, in the Belangelo State Forest, two men called

Keith were out on a walk. And maybe we're saying walk very casually, because actually, the Keiths were out on an orienteering course, which, you know, when you're doing it around your local school fucking playground, fine. They were doing it in the fucking Australian jungle slash forest, whatever it is. So I'm guessing it was pretty hardcore, difficult walking. So as the two Keiths were doing their extremely difficult orienteering walk, they caught an unpleasant whiff. They followed the whiff to a rock that was very poorly disguising the decomposing body of a woman. This woman had met an extremely violent end. The autopsy revealed that the victim had sustained 14 stab wounds to the neck, chest, back and ribs.

A homemade garrotte remained around the neck of the body. The spine had been severed and it was later theorized that this had been done to immobilize the victim while the killer left and came back. Okay, I was like, how long am I going to go before I bring this up? It's time. Wolf Creek. Wolf Creek. Wolf Creek. Wolf Creek. I'm pretty sure that that movie was based on a combination of the Peter Falconeo case and also Ivan Milat. And in that, I don't know the actor's name, but she looks exactly like Keira Knightley to me. She gets, like, abducted by the killer. He does this thing to her that he calls lollipopping,

which is what this reminds me of, where he stabs her in the spine. She falls to the ground and she's basically completely paralyzed, except for her head. And he says, now I can just leave you and do what I want, but I can still hear you scream when I come back and do fucking horrible shit to you. I don't know. I'm not going to recommend Wolf Creek if you haven't seen it, but you know, it's there. I haven't watched it. I'll watch it before I do the duvet. I know I said I wouldn't,

I forgot. I really, know it's fine. But yes it comes up a lot when you google Ivan Milat so it wouldn't surprise me at all. Basically the whole lollipopping thing it's just like a theory that the person who did the post-mortem had. Like a lot of things in this case a lot of the specific details this theory has never really been proven. So as police searched the surrounding area, another body was discovered just 30 meters from the first. The person this body belonged to had been shot 10 times in the head from five different angles, suggesting that the killer had moved the head after death to achieve his mutilation goals. Most people think that he was possibly using the head for target practice. Which I know we've talked about a lot of fucked up shit on this show,

but why that is so macabre, like so, so deeply, deeply harrowing. The idea of using a decapitated head as target practice. Yeah, totally. And it's so like, he's killing because he wants to kill. That's literally it. Like there's no like other fancy way around it. Like he's not like a Ted Bundy where he specifically kills women who look a certain way because of like whatever, because of his junior broken heart. He doesn't care. He doesn't care who it is. He just cares that he can get them on their own in the forest. Definitely. You know what Ivan Milat is like if somebody had made a movie about a serial killer, but they had done a really shit script. Yes, literally that. Where there's no backstory. There's no motivation. You're like, why is he doing this? This character has absolute no motivation and he's just doing it. then I guess could you argue it's kind of like

I don't know like Halloween and he's just there killing people and there's no real like motive or blah blah blah I don't know but then he obviously has a backstory please don't at me I know that but you know what I'm saying it's like a poorly written character but that's just because there isn't anything more to him so at the scene police also found 10.22 caliber Winchester cartridge cases which were found just three meters away from the second body. It says one cartridge fit each entry wound to the skull. The second body also exhibited stab wounds and the clothes it was wearing were slashed. There was also a red cloth tied around the bullet-riddled head. There's not any real attempt at a clean-up. Like, at this scene and then the subsequent

screens that we're going to go on to fight, like, almost all of the gun cartridges are found. Like, every single one. No one's really tried to cover any tracks. And they really weren't trying to cover any tracks because six fag butts were found at the scene, which some claim is indicative of the killer being around for at least half an hour. I think smoking six cigarettes in half an hour is a lot. And I used to smoke a lot. Like I just, I don't, don't smoke. It's not cool. But like six is a lot in half an hour, I think. Yeah. I feel like them saying at least half an hour I feel like surely at least longer because that's like one every five minutes down to the butt which I've never smoked but that sounds like a lot I'm just trying to think in the situations in which I would smoke the most quickly even then I still no don't think so I don't think I don't think I could do

it I mean I'm sure I could if I had to, if someone was paying me money to do it, but I would never choose to. Some really callous joke about... Gun to my head. I could probably smoke them. Oh my God. Yeah, I've decided I can start smoking again when I'm 70, because then it won't matter. So we've established that the cigarettes were not hidden and the bodies weren't well hidden either.

So they were thoroughly decomposed, but they were still identified. The first body was that of Joanne Walters. She was identified by a ring on her finger. The second body, the one with all of the bullet wounds, belonged to Caroline Clark. Both women were in their extremely early 20s. None of their personal effects were found with their bodies. As we'll go on to find out, the classic serial killer trait of trophy keeping is especially present in this story. To the point that the killer kept absolutely everything that his victims had on them in his house and even distributed them among his family members.

Some of these trophies even had literal name tags. Classic, classic, classic, classic. We're getting into real like classic serial killer territory here. I feel like we don't do a lot of serial killers on this show. So when we do, it's worth talking about. And when we were actually researching the book, one of the really interesting things that we came across in the trophy taking world is particularly that idea of serial killers taking trophies, but not just keeping it like in a secret little box under their bed,

but giving them to their loved ones so that like every time they see them, it gives them that little rush. It gives them that memory. It's like a magnet that we buy and put on the fridge to remind us of a happy time. They're like, here, girlfriend or sister or daughter, wear this necklace. Of a person I definitely murdered and I love it and I get a fucking massive hard-on every time I look at that necklace around your neck. That's the vibe.

Yeah, absolutely. And we know it's trophy taking and not robbery because if the murders had been for money or possessions or whatever, it's much more likely that the killer would have stripped what they wanted out of the victim's bags and then discarded the bags slash clothes themselves. Like what kind of thief wants to carry around a massive backpack that's got someone's name on it that's like property of, you know, like then that's not, it's not it. And equally, the extent of the injuries the two women sustained was so violent and so cruel that the perpetrator had to be in it for the love of killing itself. Nothing about it was quick or painless. The killing was not a means to an end. The killing was the entire point.

The discovery of the bodies of Caroline and Joanne led to a criminal profiler taking a stab at who he thought the killer might be. And this guy causes a lot of problems. He does get some things right, but it's something, it's like an element of the story that never really goes away. Like people never really let it go, even though there's no evidence to support like some parts of it. So it causes issues. But this is what he said. This profile, I said that there were likely two killers, both from a working class background and supporting a hatred of women. This seems to be based on the fact that both Caroline and Joanne were sexually assaulted and that they had been killed in very different ways. The profiler then asserted that the killers were local, they knew the forest, they were gun

enthusiasts, probably hunters, probably reclusive and most importantly they were brothers. The elder and more dominant brother was a cool and calculated killer. He was the shooter and the younger brother was a bit more erratic and impulsive. He was the one who liked to stab and most likely the one who instigated the sexual assault on the women. Which when you do look at the two killings, I do see why somebody would assume that there were two different killers. Because they are very different murders. But like you said, the problem becomes that people latch onto it and they don't want to let that go.

I will put this in my summary at the end, but I am not convinced totally that there weren't more than one people involved. Grammars on holiday. Never mind. So Caroline and Joanne were both British, but they had not come to Australia together. They had actually met on their travels and decided to continue on the rest of their Australian journey as a new best friend pair, like we all do when we're away.

They had last been seen in Sydney five months before their bodies were discovered. Joanne, who was Welsh, was reported missing in May 1992 by her former employer. She'd been working as a nanny in Sydney. Caroline was reported missing by her parents shortly after. Both girls were experienced travellers and had several countries under their belts. The New South Wales police even offered a $100,000 reward for any information about the girls' deaths. They also offered a pardon to anyone who had been

an accomplice, but nothing happened. The forest was of course also searched, but still nothing. No further leads appeared and no valuable information came in. So despite the international pressure from the British Embassy, Joanne Walters and Caroline Clark's deaths went unsolved, and to be honest, almost entirely uninvestigated. Until ten months later, when, very embarrassingly for the New South Wales police, two more bodies were discovered in the Belangelo State Forest. The search they had carried out after Caroline and Joanne's bodies were found had been half-arsed at best, and years later the lead investigator would be done for corruption. Solving the murders of the backpackers was definitely not at the top of his list.

So this second set of bodies that was discovered ten months later were discovered in October 1993, and this time it was a man and a woman. Once again, none of their stuff had been found along with their bodies and just like Caroline and Joanne these people had been killed with a combination of gunshots and stab wounds and the bullets at the crime scene were again 22 caliber. That was all the papers needed to start screaming the word serial killer into the skies which to be honest was the last thing the police needed. They were already embarrassed and now they were under pressure to get someone arrested. The bodies

were identified as Australian couple James Gibson and Deborah Everest, both 19. They were reported missing three years earlier. They'd been last seen in December 1989, leaving their family homes in Melbourne to hitchhike to Sydney and see some mates. Their plan was to spend some time in Sydney and then head to somewhere called Walwa to attend a conservation festival. The pair were green activists and attended a bunch of anti-logging protests. Like Caroline and Joanne, they were pretty experienced travellers and especially experienced hitchhikers. On the 13th of March 1990, a couple of months after James and Deborah had been reported missing, a lady called Wendy Delsbridge was driving near Galston Gorge, which is about 36 kilometres northwest of Sydney, and she spotted a red backpack on the side of the road. Thinking

she might be able to return it to its rightful owner, Wendy stopped her car, picked up the bag, and once she got home, she had a look inside and found that inside the backpack was written the name Gibson, a Victorian address as in it was in the Victoria area of Australia, and a phone number. I love the idea of it just being an old and timey address. I know, just a phone number into the past. A time machine phone number. Wendy called the number and James Gibson's mum answered the phone. The bag was then taken to a police station and once again, nothing came of it. So we can see a pattern start to emerge.

The police are taking a piece of evidence or even a whole victim like Paul Onions and nothing happens. But Australia is absolutely bloody massive and people go missing in New South Wales specifically all the time, sometimes by choice. It's a pretty easy place to disappear.

Australia is massive with super densely populated areas and then just like fucking days worth of driving with no people at all. Absolutely. If you haven't yet listened to our Peter Falcone episode, I know I've referenced it a lot already, go listen to it because in there, I can't remember off the top of my head, but we talk specifically about actually how big the Northern Territory is and like how many like Britons would fit inside it. So yes, I do understand that it is like vast area. A lot of it is just like uninhabited. But

I have to say that the Australian police don't come off well in a lot of cases that we've talked about. And by July 1992, there were 861 people termed as long-term missing in New South Wales and over 400 recent missing persons cases. It's not difficult for me to believe that when a backpacker goes missing, especially a backpacker, there might not be the most effort put into it because it means you have to get involved with the embassy maybe you're gonna have to deal with interpol like police from their country are gonna want to talk to you like it's it's a lot of paperwork yeah i feel like the way that backpackers especially possibly in a country that vast are maybe viewed often is kind of like how teenagers were viewed in the 70s they've probably just run off they're probably fine they're probably having a great time somewhere don't worry about it yeah exactly and especially in like the 70s, they've probably just run off. They're probably fine. They're probably having a great

time somewhere. Don't worry about it. Yeah, and especially in like the 90s, where like hardly anyone had a mobile, certainly not a backpack. You're not going to ring Britain from Australia on a mobile in the 90s. You'd have to sell your kidneys. Having said that, pressure from the British Embassy is exactly what was happening. And the fact that the press were convinced that everyone had a serial killer on their hands, on top of the failure of the police to find dead bodies in a forest they had told everyone they had searched, meant that a new task force was formed

and new lead investigators were put at the top of the operation. They do slightly better. It would be hard to do worse, I would have to say. So on the 5th of November, a skull and upper body were also discovered in the forest. Someone had attempted to hide another corpse under a pile of dried wood. This body was identified as German backpacker Simone Schmidl. She had suffered multiple stab wounds to her chest, and a noose made of wire was found close

to her body. Simone was also an experienced traveller. She had travelled solo through Yugoslavia, Canada and Alaska. She had arrived in Australia in October 1990, bopped around for a bit and then hopped over to New Zealand and then back again to Sydney on the 19th of January. Just like Caroline, Joanne, Deborah and James, Simone had left Sydney with the intention of hitchhiking to Melbourne, but she was never seen again. Three days after the discovery of Simone, two more German travellers were discovered in the forest on the 5th of November.

This search team were doing a much better job than the last, because they were actually finding a fucking shit ton of bodies like quite quickly imagine how embarrassing it would be as the chief of command of new south wales oh yeah you know that forest we said that we searched months ago yeah fucking heaps of dead bodies in there that we missed mate oh my god yeah they're popping up all over the fucking place and they're so obvious as well they're so badly hidden. The gun cartridges are everywhere. There's like nooses just lying around. No one was like, oh, I found it. It really does boggle the mind. So this first body of the two more German travelers that they found was that of Anja Habsched. Anja's spine had been severed by a knife and her skull was completely missing. She was identified by her

ankle bands and jewellery. That is so fucking morbid. That really makes me think like when I went travelling, I should have worn like a fucking identity something and I didn't have anything. God, if I ever have children and they want to go travelling when they're teenagers, I'll be like, you have to wear an identity, wristband, beltlet toe ring everything because like tattoos don't always help if your flesh is rotted away this is the thing you need something that's going to stand the test of time that's what you need that's what i'll tell them as i'm tucking them in always wear an ankle bracelet because that skin of yours it will fall right off It'll be degloved in a second. So, goodnight.

A length of blue and yellow rope, with loops tied at both ends, was also discovered just a stone's throw from Anya's body. The 21-year-old had been missing since January 1992. She was travelling with her 22-year-old boyfriend, Geber Neugebauer. They were supposed to return to their native Germany on the 24th of January, but they never showed up,

and there was no evidence that they'd even made it to the airport. Geber and Anja had left the original backpackers' hostel in Kings Cross in Sydney on Boxing Day 1992, headed off on a hitchhiking journey that they were hoping would conclude in Darwin. And you guessed it, they were never seen again. So after their son didn't show up, Gable's parents actually had flown to Sydney and hired a camper van to try and retrace their son's steps. But they had no luck outside of Sydney. Their son's body was discovered just 50 metres from that of his girlfriend, Anya. It was covered in debris and had six bullet holes in the skull.

Once again, they were.22-caliber Winchester bullets. Gable's money belt was discovered containing traveller's checks and airline tickets for both him and Anya, as well as their student ID cards. A length of black insulation tape with two loops fashioned at either end showed up again not far from the body. So the rope and the like black tape stuff, it seems like they're handcuffs, right? They're just like found near the body. I think it's for like to wrap around their neck and strangle them. So you've got two hand holders. Oh, my God.

And, you know, no attempt to hide it or anything. No. So it was starting to look a lot like the press were going to get the serial killer they wanted. The MO is very specific and consistent. And the police now had seven bodies killed in the same way, while doing the same thing, with the same type of bullets in the same neck of the woods or rather the same neck of the Belanglo State Forest which spans 3,800 hectares which sounds like a lot I don't know if it is a lot I'm assuming it's large but the first thing if you google the Belanglo State Forest the first thing on the Wikipedia page is the subtitle murders

like there's nothing else nothing else about it like I think they might want to hire a PR team or something oh my god that is so Australian I hope I would love to edit this Wikipedia page and add to it because I would just love it to be Belanglo State Forest murders and then immediately under poisonous animals or should I say venomous animals I know it's venomous not poisonous let's add that in too. The task force, the new swanky task force with the people who could actually do their jobs, upped the reward to $500,000. And the tips, unsurprisingly, started to flood in. Hotlines were overwhelmed and while the operators were deciphering what were legitimate tips and what weren't,

the officers on the ground attempted to find where the.22-calibre Winchester bullets had come from. A cardboard ammunition box with a batch number had been discovered at the scene of Anya and Gaber's murders, which might sound like a super clue, but it's actually a bit more complicated and a bit more denture-entry-based than that. The batch number referred to 320,000 bullets, smashing the numbers today. And these bullets were sold in 55 outlets between the 2nd of June 1988 and the 3rd of November 1988 in 28 New South Wales outlets. So all the detectives could really determine from that

was the killer was probably in New South Wales, which we kind of already knew. What's more important than the bullet batch number is the indentation that the killer's gun left on the bullets it shot. Ballistics analysis revealed that the killer's gun had a loose pin that left a graze on each bullet it shot, which meant that the rifle had to have been a.22 calibre Ruger rifle with a 10-round magazine that were only sold between 1964

and 1982. I am sure I've got some gun stuff wrong there. Don't at me. So it's still a pretty large sample group to be working with, but it's better than nothing. It's better than a.22 caliber gun. The next logical step taken by police, probably informed by the criminal profiler, was to ask around local gun clubs, which seemed like they shouldn't be allowed. And they were asking at these gun clubs if anyone had seen anything suspicious or murdery recently. Which at a gun club, what does that mean?

Shooting ranges really stress me out because there is literally nothing stopping people from shooting each other apart from social construction. There's nothing. Someone could just turn around and kill everyone within seconds. I hate it. Hate it.

I guess like different countries, you're like much more used to that. The idea of walking around and even seeing a police officer with a gun. If I'm at King's Cross and, I don't know, sometimes on anniversaries of terror attacks and stuff, they'll have police officers with big fucking guns in King's Cross. But generally, our police officers do not carry guns. And when I see it, I'm like, oh my God, what world is this? You could just shoot me. Yeah. Yeah. No, I have exactly the same experience whenever I see like an armed police officer. I'm like, oh, horrible. Yeah. It's very unusual here.

But I will say I'm seeing a lot more of them recently. So get this. The Ontario Liberals elected Bonnie Crombie as their new leader. Bonnie who? I just sent you a profile. Her first act as leader asking donors for a million bucks for her salary. That's excessive. She's a big carbon tax supporter. Oh yeah. Check out her record as mayor. Oh get out of here. She even increased taxes in this economy. Yeah, higher taxes, carbon taxes. She sounds expensive. Bonnie Crombie and the Ontario Liberals. They just don't get it. That'll cost you. A message from the Ontario PC Party. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to light some of the biggest controversies in U.S. history. Presidential lies,

environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our latest series, NASA embarks on an ambitious program to reinvent space exploration with the launch of its first reusable vehicle, the Space Shuttle. And in 1985, they announced they're sending teacher Krista McAuliffe into space aboard the Space Shuttle Challenger, along with six other astronauts. But less than two minutes after liftoff, the Challenger explodes. And in the tragedy's aftermath, investigators uncover a series of preventable failures by NASA and its contractors that led to the disaster. Follow American Scandal on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Experience all episodes ad-free and be the first to binge the newest season only on Wondery+. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or

Spotify. Start your free trial today. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Combs. Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment, charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution. I was f***ed up.

I hit rock bottom, but I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real. From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is The Rise and Fall of Diddy. Listen to The Rise and fall of Diddy exclusively

with Wondery Plus. So they're at the gun clubs and on the 16th of October 1993, Detective Kevin Hammond got a little bit more than he bargained for in the shape of 52-year-old local gun enthusiast Alex Millat. Alex told the detective that on the 26th of April, he and his friend had been out shooting stuff. They were slowly driving in the direction of the Belanglo State Forest, and they were going slowly to avoid hitting any stray kangaroos or wallabies that might be crossing the road at that particular time in the afternoon. And as they were driving so slowly,

they were able to get a really good look at any other vehicles on the road. Pretty superhuman look, in fact. Because Alex Mallat told Detective Kevin that he had seen two vehicles headed towards the Belangelo State Forest at 4pm. The first, he said, was a brown 1980 Ford Falcon, and the second was a Nissan Navara, though it was beige on top and brown on the bottom. Fun fact, Australians call people carriers people movers. Isn't that great? I thought you'd like that. That's great. That's great. I love that. I love it.

Ugly white people movers. Just like a moving company that you can hire so your wife doesn't fall in love with the mover. I don't know. There's something about it. So according to Alex Malat, the driver of the first car was thin, white and had a big nose and a prominent Adam's apple, bright orange hair and mutton chops with a tattooed left hand. Okay. If you're going to lie, make it more generic. It's like Mr. Bean's holiday or something where he like describes or like has to draw a picture of a criminal. And it's just this like completely outlandish person with like banana shaped scars and like two eye patches, etc.

And that's like he's not even trying. No, it's just completely moronic. I think people think that it will make the police go on this wild hunt looking for someone who looks really bizarre. But, like, why don't people understand that you describe someone who's, like, 5'10", white man with mousy brown hair? That's going to be way harder to look for. Yeah, don't describe a very distinctive person.

Yeah, but that's what they go for. They even gave this guy, you know, a not very nice skin condition. They also said he had very prominent acne. So this poor man, poor made-up man. They also said that there was another man in the passenger seat and he was holding a 410 model shotgun with a barrel pointing upwards. As you're taking all of that in, please remember that Alex Mallat said that he had seen all of this

while he was driving past this vehicle. But slowly because of the wallabies. So eagle-eyed Alex Mallat didn't have much else to say about the men, as if, you know, that wasn't good enough. But he said that he got an even better look at the woman in the back seat, who he described as having long, mousy hair

and being in her 20s. And he said that this woman tried to attract his attention. Apparently, she had a honey-coloured bit of material wrapped around her mouth. I mean, fuck me, that's a lot of detail. And he continues with the details because he said that the second car was being driven by a clean looking man who Alex Malat claimed couldn't have been a labourer going by the state of his hands. Alex Malat thought that the driver must have been an office worker. Unlike the ginger mutton chop man, this dark haired person was totally clean shaven. For context, Alex Malat and all of his family are labourers. I think I'd say they all had mutton chops.

But I mean, also, quite a lot of them do, to be honest. But he's just like, no, absolutely nothing to do with people like me. Very clean, office-y type. Those fucking city slickers coming down here, murdering people in the Belangelo forest. And so, yeah, he's giving all this detail about this made-up office driver who's driving this car. But he also said there was a woman in the back of this car too, who also had a honey-coloured gag around her mouth. But he made it clear that he didn't think

it was the same material as the gag that had been around the woman in the first car's mouth. I mean, it's good to be sure. Details pay. Yeah, it's good to be specific, except when you're lying, in which case you should be as vague as you possibly can. But it didn't stop Alex Mallat, because he also claimed that although he couldn't manage to remember the whole number plate, he did mention that the combinations ALD537 and ALODAL and ACL had significance to him. And that's a quote. He specifically says has significance to him.

Sounds very, very specific. But in actual fact, it is about as useful as your ex-boyfriend's apologies. It's like he's so careful to give like such detail that he's like, oh, it'll sound like I'm telling the truth if I remember these extremely specific things. But like, it's just enough to sound specific. It's completely useless. So Alex Mallat told Detective Kevin that he had assumed that these men were taking these girls into the forest to, quote, have a good time with, and therefore saw no need to report it to the police at the time.

People look lost in the forest all the time, he said. So he didn't see why this would be any different. The gags and the wide-eyed stares from the women in the car didn't seem to point him in any particular direction. When Millat had finished this extraordinarily detailed story, he identified the women that he had seen as being Caroline Clark and Joanne Walters by picking the young women's photos out of a lineup. So not only were they in the back of a car that you were traveling past in another car, they also had gags covering half their faces,

but he's able to pick them out of a fucking lineup. If you can tell from our rivers of sarcastic tone and textbook trademark charm and wit, if you are also thinking that this encounter is too incredibly detailed to be true, you're absolutely right. It is total bollocks. All the parts of the story were pretty inconsequential. There are a lot of details, but none of them are specific enough to be helpful. And although Alex Millat did positively identify Caroline Clark and Joanne Walters when he was shown their pictures, it's not actually that impressive when you consider that everyone in New South Wales knew what the girls looked like because their pictures had been in the papers

for months. And equally, he could have known what they looked like because he was involved in their killing, rather than just spotting them from a car window. We think that Alex Millat told this particular story for one of the following reasons. One, he made the whole thing up to get his hands on $500,000. Two, he was involved in the murders and trying to throw the police off the scent. Or three, he actually had nothing to do with the murders, but he wanted to protect the killer. And there was someone else who was swinging their dick around talking about dead backpackers in the Belanglo State Forest called Paul Thomas Miller. Miller was drunk and violent most of the time. Ever since Easter 1992, he had been telling his drinking buddies and his colleagues that he knew who had murdered, quote,

the Germans and that there were way more bodies to be found in the forest that the police had missed. Investigators were alerted to Miller after he told a concerned friend that stabbing a woman was like slicing a loaf of bread. After that revelation, officers did some digging and it was revealed that Paul Thomas Miller wasn't Paul Thomas Miller at all.

His real name was Richard Millat. Could I just say quickly about the whole stabbing a woman being like a loaf of bread? It reminds me of the 40-year-old virgin when they're all talking about sex and he's like, what's a woman's boob feel like? Feels like a bag of sand. They're like, what? So you've never touched a woman's breast then? Oh man. So his name is Richard Millat and he is no distant cousin. He is Alex Millat's brother and the two of them

have a lot more brothers. There are 10 Millat brothers and a total of 14 Millat children. Bloody hell. So their dad is from Croatia and emigrated. I think their father was one of 25.

Wow. I don't think they all survived to adulthood,. I think their father was one of 25. Wow. I don't think they all survived to adulthood, but like there were just fucking loads of them. Well, you know, I don't even know what to say about that woman. Well done for being so fertile and strong. I fucking hope. So of the current Malak family in Australia, not in Croatia, none of them really went to school and they seem to all be in and out of trouble.

There are various interviews with various different Malats on the internet for you to pursue at your leisure. One of the Malat brothers is called George and George really likes guns. And one of the documentaries on this case, I don't think it's the 60 Minutes one, it's the other one. You can watch George talk about guns for about 10 minutes. I have never found Australians particularly difficult to understand. And I grew up watching Neighbours every day. I struggle so hard to follow what that man is saying. And I can't even put my finger on it. Like, I don't know whether he's mumbling or whether I just don't understand some of the words he's using, but I really, like, I had to concentrate and watch it, like, three times to, like, get the gist of what he was saying.

But I eventually figured it out, and it turns out George's favourite gun is a big old rifle that belonged to his brother, Ivan, who we met as he terrorised Paul Onions at the beginning of this episode. George refers to Ivan as the big fella, which, okay, charming, charming family nickname. Why not? So all of the Malats were very well known to the police for general misbehaving, robbery, drunkenness, etc, etc, etc. But it seems as if Ivan, although not the eldest brother, was actually top dog. I mean, yeah, he's the one called the big fella. So there you go. He's the apex of this little brood.

As a child, his younger sister, Margaret, had died in his arms after a car accident. And apparently, according to everyone, after that, Ivan had become hardened. He bullied his other siblings, became obsessed with violence and guns. Everything about Ivan was controlled. He didn't drink. His house was immaculate. He was obsessed with his appearance. He didn't get into brawls.

But he did consistently sleep with all of his brother's wives. Like all of them. All of them. And I think he's like fathered a couple of children that have been raised by his brothers and his brothers have believed that they're theirs and they're actually not. And it's like consistently all of them. And one of them's called Maureen,

who's interviewed on 60 Minutes. And the interviewer who I have my issues with that I'll go into later on, but the interview is like asking her with her relationship with Ivan and like how she remembers him. And this lady is like, obviously like had some fucking shit happen to her and she's just like oh I just want

to remember him as the person I knew who was really nice okay Maureen fuck I love that she's like I just don't want to hear that bit I mean he was just nice to me and that's the main thing you know what that is my least favorite argument of people who are like, oh, I just think feminism's gone a bit too far. And I'm like, okay, firstly, please just get in the bin. But second, there was, oh, I'm just nice to everyone. If you're nice to me, I'll be nice to you. Shut up. Try harder.

Get a better argument. That's such a cop-out. Fuck. Brilliant. And I think this is what ties back to what you were saying earlier about him being a kind of stone-cold psychopath. He is very, very controlled in his behaviour behavior he's not acting erratically he's not drawing attention to himself he remains completely calm calculated in control and it reminds me of people like Ian Watkins say when we covered that case a while back and how everybody

else was in the party scene and I know he fell into that later, but how he never drank at first because he'd rather be in control. So it seems that Ivan's criminal record kicked off with a breaking and entering charge in 1964. Then, in 1971, he was charged with rape. A lot of the sources that you'll read about this case say that Ivan escaped jail time and a conviction on this rape charge because of a quote technicality. However that is not true at all. He got away with it because of the patriarchy. Patriarchy klaxon. Yeah patriarchy is not a technicality it's just a state

of being. So on the 10th of April 1971 Ivan Ivan Malat picked up two 18-year-old hitchhikers called Margaret and Greta. He agreed to drive them from Liverpool to Canberra. But on the way, he pulled over into the forest and told the girls, quote, you know what I'm going to do. I'm going to kill the both of you. You won't scream when I cut your throats, will you? Either one of you has sex with me or I will kill you both. Margaret said that she would have sex with Ivan as long as he promised to let them go. And this was ruled by the court to be consensual sex. And Ivan Milat was not convicted of rape.

Like, oh my, fuck. When I read that, I was was like i'm not even remotely surprised but like bargaining sex to save your life and the life of your friend doesn't sound particularly consensual to me let's just move on i can't even fucking bring myself to say anything about this oh it gets worse the next bit's even worse i know excellent and, it does get very much worse because Margaret's sexuality was called into question in the courtroom. She was portrayed as an extremely promiscuous person just because she admitted to occasionally fancying girls. I literally wish I was making this up, but it was the defense lawyer has written a book that's called I Am What I Am. Ugh.

Yeah. Disgusting. He's like, I'm not proud of what I did. But like at the time, being a lesbian was really stigmatized. And she'd like admitted to like not being a swinger, but just like being like in sort of like a sexually liberated like scene. And that was enough to turn the jury against her. Oh, my God god if she's got off with a girl she must be having sex with absolutely everybody and also it's okay to rape her yeah yeah yeah a sexually liberated lesbian or a sexually liberated bi woman she can't possibly

be raped she must have loved it and also it's not even the olden times coverage that calls it a technicality the 60 minutes thing came out in like 2018 or some shit. And they're like, oh, he got off on a technicality. No, fuck you. No, I hate that. A technicality. 60 Minutes is fucking trash. It is trash.

Honestly, honestly, though. It's awful. But I do watch it. I mean, not like for jokes. I've watched it for the show. So anyway, if we skip back up to the 90s, Ivan Milat was right back in the police's crosshairs because of his brothers drawing attention to themselves with those wildly detailed witness statements.

And of course, because of our old pal, Paul Onions. Chutney friend, chutney chum, I should say, shouldn't I? Come on, Hannah. Joanne Berry, the woman who had saved Paul Onions that Chutney friend, Chutney chum, I should say, shouldn't I? Come on, Hannah. Joanne Berry, the woman who had saved Paul Onions that day back in 1990, had seen all of the coverage of the forest backpacker murders and she rang Paul, who was living back in England, to suggest that he help with the investigation. Paul Onions, the upstanding member of society that he is, did just that. He rang them up, told them what happened, where it happened and when it happened and then he was flown to Australia in 1994 so he could give a proper interview,

as the record of his original one had magically disappeared. After he retold his harrowing story, Paul Onions picked up Ivan Milat out of a photo lineup, and that was all the police needed to start surveilling Ivan Milat's house. Ivan Milat, being the controlling guy that he is, he had this security system at his house that he was like meticulous with turning on

so they're like we can't like sneak around when he's not there like we have to do a raid essentially and the police were extremely worried that Ivan would clock

that they were onto him because as the investigation was going the press were just all over this the whole time and as the investigation was ongoing I think it was Four Corners

which I believe is the Australian panorama Four Corners did like a And as the investigation was ongoing, I think it was Four Corners, which I believe is the Australian panorama. Four Corners did like a documentary on the investigation. And in one of the shots, in a blackboard in the police station, the name Milat is visible in a shot. And that's broadcast

at the time of the investigation. And then like someone saw it and it got taken down and now it's out. But like it was broadcast like on national television during the investigation, like his name on like a corner of a blackboard.

So that happened. They were super worried about it, but they didn't really need to be because even when Ivan was tipped off that the police were looking into him, he really didn't care. He was the type of man who was so convinced of how amazing he was that he could talk his way out of anything. After all, it had worked with Margaret in 1971. And also evidence of his psychopathic status, in my view.

Nothing bothers him. He's just like, it'll be fine. The task force knew that they might have been rumbled because of the documentary snafu, but they pressed on and organised synchronised raids of Ivan's house and multiple other Malat properties. These raids revealed a multitude of items that had belonged to the seven victims found in the forest. There were water bottles, rucksacks, items of clothing,

sleeping bags, cups, camping stoves, all later confirmed by parents to be the property of their murdered children. Police also uncovered a postcard addressed to Bill Millat, which is the name Ivan had used when abducting Paul Onions. When asked why he and his family had all of these items that belonged to people who had been found brutally murdered in the forest, Ivan just said he didn't know. And that frustratingly blunt answer is the only one Ivan Millat ever gives. He's just like, I don't know.

See, he's smart. He's smart because he's like, I'm not going to lie. I'm not going to say anything. I'm not going to give you some detailed lie about, you know, I went to a fucking jumble sale and bought them there. He's just like, no idea. They're like, why is this all here? And he's like, you tell me. At Ivan's 76-year-old mum's house, police found a.22 caliber rifle with the name Ivan literally engraved on it.

And either this rifle or one of the bajillions that was found at the various Malat houses displayed the fault that would have produced the irregular indentation on the bullets found at the scenes of the murders. And Ivan just said he had no idea how the rifle got there or why it could have been used in the multiple murders. He's like, oh, if it was used, I don't know. No idea, mate. I've got like 36 brothers. Go ask them. Yeah, right, exactly. A hair that was later identified as being Caroline Clark's was found on a pillowcase in one of the Millat properties. Hundreds of evidence exhibits were taken from the houses, including lengths of electrical tape

that had been fashioned into garottes with handles at both ends. So those are the ones that I thought were handcuffs, but they're not. Like Hannah said, they're gararrots. Ivan was arrested and the lengthy process of getting to trial began. Now we won't bore you with all of the details, but Ivan Milat opted to, of course, you guessed it, represent himself for a bit. But then he changed his mind. At no stage in the trial did Milat ever admit to anything. His defence argument depended entirely on convincing the judge and jury to doubt whether the murders were actually carried out by Ivan. It's so weird. They're like, yeah, of course,

like we can't deny that these murders definitely happened. They were super brutal and that their stuff is in the Milat's houses. Prove it was him and not one of the other ones. Exactly. The defence argued that the murders could have been carried out by any one of the Malat brothers, if not a combination of several of them. The defence were trying to create a world in which Ivan didn't commit the murders, but that perhaps somebody close to him did. This narrative was of course undermined by the vast amount of the victim's belongings being in Ivan's house specifically and only a few bits being found in other family members homes. This option comes from the quite unhelpful analysis from the criminal profiler that suggested

there were two killers. The police confirmed that there was no evidence to support that there was more than one killer, but the original analysis of a brotherly killing team just refused to die. The prosecution had heaps and heaps of evidence. Although it was circumstantial, there was enough of it to be significant. The trial drudged on for 18 weeks, always following the same pattern. Ivan Malat being presented with a piece of evidence that made him look extremely fucking connected to the murders and him just simply denying any knowledge or understanding of the situation. The defining moment of the trial was when Ivan was asked about a pair of gloves that had been found in his home. It was the end of a long day

and a tired and exasperated Ivan exclaimed, I never wore no, and then stopped himself. The lawyer for the prosecution then followed up, Do you mean you never wore gloves in the forest? Again, it's like a courtroom scene from that crappy film we were making up. Literally, literally that. I never wore no. Wait, wait a minute. Gasp, a shudder throughout the courtroom.

Court adjourned. But Warno, wait, wait a minute. Gasp, a shudder throughout the courtroom. Court adjourned. Caroline Clark's father actually described this moment as the tide really started to turn. There was something about it that convinced the jury of Ivan's guilt. And just like that, after 18 weeks of trudgery, Malat was convicted of seven counts of murder and one count of abduction in 1996. And he was sent to prison for the rest of his life.

A life that ended in October 2019, when he died of esophageal and stomach cancer at the age of 74. Obviously terrible guy, but stomach cancer is a fucking horrible way to go. And never once did he confess. And I actually think that's a major reason that he's often overlooked by true crime fans. Like, the stories that get the most press are like Kemper's Bundy's Dharma's Nilsons people who give lengthy detailed confessions because that's what we really want like the only reason we know Ed Kemper fucked his own mom's head

is because he told us so himself yeah I think it's definitely the confessions and you know Nilsons like wrote fucking journal after journal after journal when he was in prison but i also think it's because kemper had his crazy fucking relationship with his mum bundy had you know all of the stuff that bundy had that everyone was fucking obsessed with nelson had the whole fucking fancy dress and dharma had a fucking fridge full of dicks and i think it was like the backstory that all of them had as well whereas with ivan Milat, there's no clear motivation. There's no clear like backstory apart from like his sister dying in a car accident that made him all like hard into the world. I think that's why people don't get their teeth into the Milat case, I think. Totally.

But there could have been all of these fucked up things that happened to him. We just don't know because he never spoke to anyone. We just don't know because he didn't confess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And none of his family have ever spoken out. Like there's no sort of interviews with his mum when she's like, oh yeah, actually I did put his head in a blender. They're very closed ranks, the Malatts. Also there's no like psychological assessments or anything that we have any access to because he's literally just never ever spoken to anyone ever. He just is like, I don't know. So the play by play, which everyone

finds so interesting in this case, doesn't really exist. Well, no official one exists anyway. The Malat family have been in and out of the press for the past 30 years, often giving interviews about Ivan's innocence. When asked what evidence they have to support this theory, they can offer none. They also refuse to explain how items that belonged to seven dead people ended up in their various houses. But not all of the 13 other Malats are on Team Ivan is Innocent though. According to mumbling gun lover George, their now dead mother visited Ivan in prison and he confessed to her

that he had killed all seven people that he was accused of killing and that there were way more buried in the forest that had never been found. Again we have no idea if this is true. Another Malat, Boris, recently gave an interview again to Australia's 60 Minutes condemning his brother after his death as a murderous mongrel saying that his family had to step up and denounce him for the serial killer that he was. But as far as we know, nothing like that has happened. It's a weird interview. And like Boris is clearly disturbed by something.

I think he's also got Parkinson's, like he's shaking, he's old. Like, as we know, awkward men make me inside out. It's so difficult to describe. I'll link it, it's on YouTube. But like the interviewer who like I'm not a huge fan of, she asks him about like the victims and he starts crying. And I do believe he's really crying. And then he like stops the interview and comes back. But then he sort of takes control of the situation. He starts telling this journalist who's interviewing him. He's like, oh, you have to change your line of questioning. Like I'm not

going down that route. It's so bizarre to watch. Like, there is something going on with Boris. I don't know what it is. I mean, to be honest, there seems to be something going on with all of the Millats. Yes, I think we can safely say that. And the murders have not stopped with Ivan either. In 2012, Ivan's grandnephew, Matthew Millat, went to prison for a 30-year sentence because he murdered his friends with an axe in the very same Belanglo State Forest. The jury was told at trial that after the murder, Matthew had gloated that murder was, quote, what the Millats do. I don't think it is completely outside the realms of possibility

that other Milats were involved. I think there are definitely more bodies that haven't been found. Even the police are like, we think there are three or four. It could be up to 28 that we just don't know about. And there's not enough evidence. I agree. And for Ivan to have dragged another brother into it, he knew I think it wouldn't have saved him. And it would have just implicate him because he would have actually then confessed. So yeah. Yeah. What is interesting though is that the murders only happen when Milat didn't have a girlfriend or wife. Again, a classic from the book. If you'd like to know more about that and how love and relationships can change a serial killer, then you should definitely buy our book

because there are two fucking chapters, one on relationships, one on love, where we go into depth about how it can stop some of them killing and how it can make some of them even fucking worse. That's a nice little segue to lead us to the end of this episode. Hope you all enjoyed it. Please don't at me about my Australian accent that I mildly did at the start i was just joking anyway thank you all for listening so much if you are a patron you can come and hang out with us immediately after this on under the duvet in under the duvet whatever you know what i'm saying we obviously now have the video version which goes up for ten dollar and up patrons where you can see our lovely faces you can can see Hannah's beautiful reactions. Last week's one was the best. It killed me.

You've got to watch it to understand. Classically trained in facial expression. And Under the Duvet, when it started last year, you know, it used to be like 20, 25 minutes long. Under the Duvet episodes are now an hour long consistently. Which was not a choice. Just a lot of shit is happening and it we rage about it it is so if you feel like i need an hour of like red-handed every week and then i also want another

hour of red-handed under the duvet every week you should definitely come and become a patron but you will not be disappointed i feel like you get way more than you pay for it's a bargain this month we've also got a fucking banging in the news. That feels horrible to say, but it's because there's been so many horrible things happening in the news that we're going to talk about it all in our topical news segment called In the News. We've also got brand new jingles for Under the Duvet and In the News. Oh, yeah. So good. Jingle George. George Boomsmer, thank you so much for doing a fantastic job on putting jingles together for us. They are delightful.

You're an incredibly talented man. We love it. We love you. So come listen to all those things. We've also got a bonus Patreon episode that goes out at some point. I can't remember. For all $10 and up patrons on the Broken Arrow killings, which is just fucking savage. But you guys voted for it in the new polls that we now do on Patreon.

So you're welcome. Anyway, that is it. That's all the plugging I've got to do for now. Shall we say thank you to some lovely patrons? Let's do that. Thank you so much, Laura Humphrey. I know someone called Laura Humphrey. Is that you, Laura?

I don't know. Anna Longhager. Josh Maricarian, Morgan Baker, Sam Blalock, Omaria, Tammy Saba, Kirsten Ann, Louise17191719, I don't know, Martine DeProse-Kedge, Melissa McKnight, Katie Crawford, Kate Paula Stanridge, Caroline Keishon, Nina Gaffarian, Jenna Neal, Sheridan Luckett, Man Bear Pug, May Britton, Caroline Quaid, Heidi Elcia, Katie Allen, Bianca Bernhard, Trudy Kelly,

Renee, India Sykes, Noel, Heather Tazala, Amber Butterworth, Katie Cronin, Katie Grandori, Lisa Brown, Aisha Mohamed, Fionn Horton, Brittany Benson, Bracastern, Jen Eisel, Poppy, Carly Price, Laura Abigail Gollins, Loopy Green, Jillian Kelly, Naja, Nico, Colleen, Gavin Brady, Phil Herron, Ivy, Tori Brown, Diamonds TK, Milena, Adam Webster, Hannah Clark, Tara Reyes, Tanya Brink, Alexandra, Catherine Lawrence, Caelan Barry, Katie Grillo, Heather, Matilda Jeans, M. Mottram, Stefan Bogan, SSWW, Charlotte Mitchell, Ellery Barnes, Helen Bryden, Thank you ever so much for supporting the show. And we'll see you on all of the other stuff we do absolutely goodbye bye I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest

to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health.

This is season two of Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery+. Join Wondery in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made,

a seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry. But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder.

Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.