RedHanded - Episode 201 - Jimmy Savile: Predator in Plain Sight - Part 2

Episode Date: June 17, 2021

The concluding part of this series explores Savile’s strange relationship with his mother, God and the BBC. The girls examine the mountains of evidence that piled up long before Savile’s death and ask how everyone turned a blind eye to child abuse, rape and necrophilia… Follow us on social media:InstagramTwitterFacebook See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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I'm Hannah. I'm Sruti. And welcome and bienvenue Red Handed 201, the 201st episode of Red Handed. Last week was a part one, this is a part two. Welcome to part two of our National Embarrassment Jimmy Savile series. If you haven't listened to part one yet, make sure you go and do that, or you'll probably feel quite lost, confused, and a little bit sad. But to be honest, you're going to feel that way anyway, because this episode is just as bad as last week's,

and there's less pirate radio nostalgia and more of the BBC attempting to save themselves rather than report actual news. Not a BBC bash there, which I have been accused of in the past. That is a fact and a fact that we are going to explain and explore in this episode. But before we do that, let's recap what we covered in part one last week. We told you all about Jimmy Savile's early life, his dancehall career, how he became a radio DJ, how he became the BBC's untouchable secret weapon and a favourite of the royals. We covered how he wiggled his way into general hospitals and those for the criminally insane under the guise of fundraising, when he actually was just gaining access to vulnerable people

who no one would believe if they ever told the truth, which is exactly why he chose them. Last week, we left off Savile's life story at the start of his 50s and the beginning of Jim'll Fix It, the long-running programme that would solidify Savile's crooked visage in the minds of the nation forever as it pulled in 15 million viewers every week. Like many of his exploits, Jim'll Fix It gave Savile access to children whenever he wanted whilst maintaining the image of a Latter-day Saint. His need for sanctity, like most narcissistic manipulators, was the result of a weird relationship with God and an even weirder one with his mum. And let's start with his mum, Agnes. The woman who put her child's survival down to a miracle performed by the most boring nun of all time.

I was on Hinge the other day and the guy's like prompt. I don't even remember what the prompt was. But his answer was, nuns aren't real. You don't ever see them. I don't believe in nuns. That was his before the fold answer. So like when you just see the first picture and the first thing that they have written, that's what you see for that guy. And I was like,

what an odd statement. Who are you after? It's funny you should say that because I was on the heath on Saturday and I did see a real life nun out for a walk. Stop it. Yeah. And it has been quite some time since I saw a nun in the wild. Are they allowed to do that? Yeah, they're allowed. They can wander around. Do you know what? I've never seen a solitary nun before. Yeah, and it has been quite some time since I saw a nun in the wild. Are they allowed to do that? Yeah, they're allowed. They can wander around. Do you know what? I've never seen a solitary nun before. Obviously, I've seen many a nun in my time, but they're usually in pairs at least.

A flock. A flock, yeah. No, she was on her own with a friend who looked like she wasn't a nun. And they were having a little walk on the heath. So they are out there. Well, that's fun. Good for her. She's quite young as well. So anyway, let's get back to Agnes and this nun. So Agnes was the only constant woman in Jimmy Savile's life. He lived with her

until she died in 1972, or at least he said that he lived with her. But when you consider that he had flats in Leeds General Infirmary and Stoke Mandeville, offices at Broadmoor, and a caravan that he frequently parked on the grounds of Rampton, it seems unlikely that he spent many of his nights at home with his dear old mum. And you may remember from last week that Savile called his mum the Duchess. And if that doesn't turn your stomach, well then this will. Because after she died, Jimmy Savile kept his mum, Agnes's room, complete with single bed and frilly bedsheets, totally as it had been when she was still alive.

Like a shrine to a lost child. That's alarm bells. That's like Ed Gein. You know, that's like what he did for his mum, Augusta. You know? It's a mausoleum. Like, it is so weird it's so so utterly bizarre like I think you know obviously looking after your mum when

she's old is one thing but he lived with her his entire life there was no time when he didn't live with her obviously he's you know being a pedo in various hospitals in various like live-in situations so he's not actually living her with that much but like that's what he always told the press oh I'm just looking after my mum again is it just like a weird thing to be like look how wholesome I am but it's just like super weird and creepy but this is weird and creepy like keeping the bedroom intact because I feel like people who do it when they lose a child it's one thing because that's so unnatural like that is like you know a parent losing a child is never meant to happen but lose a child. It's one thing because that's so unnatural. Like that is like, you know, a parent losing a child is never meant to happen. But as a child, you're always going to assume that

you're going to lose your parents at some time. And the fact that he keeps her room exactly as it is like a weird little shrine to her is just so bizarre and unnatural. There's no other way to put it. I hate this. I hate this. He even kept, again, in a very Ed Gein move, all of his mum's clothes in her wardrobe, just in the house still. And in the first Louis Theroux documentary that we mentioned in last week's episode, Savile showed off his dead mum's wares with pride

as being better than a photograph. There's also an extremely odd, I mean, go and watch the documentary, but there's an extremely odd photograph of Savile and his mum that has been staged. It's a professionally taken photograph and he's like, oh, it was for a magazine or something,

but I don't know. And he's wearing a dressing gown and just like, why are you taking a dressing gown picture with your mum as like a stage thing it's not like oh here we are at the spa on a weekend away it's like in their living room like a state it's very bizarre and this is just like the fucking tip of the iceberg unfortunately with Savile so yeah he's keeping this up and also with the whole thing of like showing off a dress and being like it's better than than a photograph. I don't know. It's a bit like trophy taking. It comes across a bit trophy taking. I'm not saying obviously that he killed

his mum or anything like that, but it's a weird thing that we see serial killers do. And I don't know, interestingly, he thinks that way. And it also very much is implied that Jimmy Savile had gone through his mum's old clothes and sniffed them in his spare time. I just feel like when someone dies right I think children dying is a separate thing right because as you say it's like it's not supposed to happen that way around right but like when someone dies as someone who has lost a parent you have to move the stuff out of the house or you're not going to be able to move on you can't just like have their stuff I mean can't you know I'm not going to be able to move on. You can't just like have this. I mean, can't.

I'm not going to tell anyone how to grieve. But like it's an outlier, I would argue, to keep all of their stuff as if they are still there. It's like you're not letting go of it. Like that's what it feels like. Absolutely. And again, you know, possibly if Jimmy Salvo wasn't a massive rapist pedophile, we wouldn't think too much about this. You might think, oh, maybe he needs to go to a grief counselor but obviously putting it all together you're like this guy's fucking crazy

town so it's difficult for us to know how much of like Savile's chat about his mum and all of this kind of weird behavior was for show because we do know like we talked about in last week's episode I do think there was an element of like shock tactics to Savile's behavior. Totally. He's constantly peacocking. But like peacocking in a way that's like trying to make himself like look big and important, but also to make himself look so weird that you'll just let him get away with everything. So like it's difficult to know what is sincere and what isn't. Absolutely. And in this Louis Theroux documentary,

Savile even says that he speaks to his dead mother. He says that every time he walked into the flat that they had shared, he would throw an, all right, darling, into her empty mausoleum bedroom. Again, like, I don't know. Who speaks to their mum like that, firstly? I don't know. I mean mean it's like this role reversal thing

I don't think I would ever call my mom a pet name now I don't have pet names for my parents but they have pet names for me it'd be weird if I had a pet name for them I think what's your parents pet they've got quite a few actually I think I don't know it's a bit cringe isn't it to say it on air come on I'll tell you what mine is. I guarantee it's worse. No, mine aren't like that specific, I guess. They'll call me like Kuti, which means little in Tamil. And that's like quite a common one that they will call me.

Like everyone in the family will call me. What about you? Porka. Oh, I think you've told me that before. That's harsh. Excellent. Yeah, always still to this day the other thing when i was a what i still do i shiver all the time when i was a baby my mum thought i was really ill because i was just like shivering and she took me to the doctor and the doctor was like no no she's just doing a wee but like it's not it's nothing to do with like needing a wee or doing a wee or

whatever but my mum still to this day is even though i'm a 30 year old woman if I shiver she'd be like are you doing a wee especially when there's like people at the house or like it's a party or something that's adorable I love that one and I'm not I'm never doing a wee I just shiver all that I think just I've got constantly people walking over my grave in another life I think so right enough of my relationship with my mum. And Savile's relationship with his mum is probably something we will never know the whole truth about. Firstly, because they're both dead. And secondly, because even if they were alive, they wouldn't tell the truth. But luckily for us, Savile's relationship with God is easier to examine because Savile published a whole book about his relationship with God.

And we touched on it very briefly last week. It was called God'll Fix It, a slim volume meant to explain his views on religion in an easy way for the common reader. Savile was a devout Catholic, and as such, he regarded sex as a sin of the flesh. Of course, he never married, so he never had Pope-sanctioned sex. And he discussed this in an entire chapter in his book entitled, How Do I Cope With Sex? It is pretty cryptic, but it does have some passages that in the cold light of day are uncomfortable to read, like the following quote. The word sex is like the word love. It means differing things to different people. Sex at its worst is corruption,

as when young people might be corrupted to provide sex. Let's unpack that for a minute, shall we? Sure, like there are different reasons that people have sex, but I don't think sex means... I feel like it's an unambiguous term. Like, have I got that wrong? Like, I feel like... I don't think you've got that wrong. I think I can absolutely agree that love is an ambiguous word, but I don't think sex is an ambiguous word. Yeah. Sex at its worst is corruption.

I mean, okay. You know, it's obviously extremely telling that he immediately jumps to young people as his example, but obviously hindsight is 2020. According to this self-penned religious text Savile certainly viewed sex as a sin which he made up for with his charity work and in the book Savile described God as having a credit and debit system when it came to sins versus good deeds. Savile was fairly certain that by the time he made it to the pearly gates, he would be in credit. Which is a really medieval understanding of judgment and the afterlife.

Like not even Catholics believe in supererogation anymore. It's literally like an idea dated to like the actual dark ages where you could buy your way into heaven. Like nobody believes that anymore. Yeah, and it is also very, if we strip away all the God stuff and we just look at what he's actually saying about corruption and about cancelling things out and morality, etc., he really is just waters back down to your garden variety predator

and killer or anything, because all of them, as we've talked about many times on this show they just operate using their own moral compass their own code of ethics when people say you know they lack the ability to integrate into society because they can't live by society's rules and norms and they have no morals they do have morals they just don't align with ours they have created a world of their own and a moral code of their own. As long as which they live within those, they feel like they're not a monster. Again, we've said this before on the show, no one is a monster in their own story. And Jimmy Savile, interestingly, I think he understands his

compulsions and his perversions. And interestingly, I think he absolutely knows that they are wrong. What he's doing is what a lot of predators do, which is decide, well, I'm going to do this because I want to do it, because it makes me feel good, but I'm going to equal it out. I'm going to cancel it out. And as long as I only do it this way, then it's not that bad and I'm not really a monster. So this is the thing. Jimmy Savile is a fascinating story in terms of the national importance of his case. But I think when you water it down, he is just kind of your average sexual predator. He just had access and power to harm and abuse a lot more people. That's exactly it. Like he just created a narrative in his head and had the

audacity to publish a book on being a good Catholic at the same time. Because, you know, he was in credit. Because I was talking to my mom about it and she was like, you have to understand that like in the like 60s, 70s, there was no London Marathon, like this sort of like exertion of physicality to raise money for charity. Nobody was doing it except him. It was this entirely new sensational thing that hadn't been done before. That's interesting. So despite Savile's book and outing himself for having beliefs that even the Catholic Church weren't exactly in line with at the time, this didn't stop the Pope handing Savile a papal knighthood in 1981, which was closely then followed by a real one in 1990 from the Queen. So I figured out the knighthood thing. So we weren't sure last week

whether Savile had had his knighthood stripped or not. Turns out knighthoods, unless they are inherited ones, which don't exist anymore, well, they do exist, but they're not given anymore. Normal knighthoods are literally only a living title. So once you die, you're not a knight anymore anyway. Handy. they're just covering themselves in case shit like this happens extremely handy yeah so he doesn't have to be stripped of it because technically when he died his knighthood already disappeared of course he doesn't because of course they don't want to put the royal family through the shame of having to strip jimmy saville fucking pedophile rapist man of his knighthood that they gave him.

And yeah, fair enough. Like, obviously, they didn't know that he was probably at the time or whatever. But like, shut up. Still. So if you think that the papal knighthood and the real knighthood was impressive, it's nothing. Because Savile's full name at the time of his death was the following. Everybody ready? I've been practising.

Sir James Wilson Vincent Saville, OBE, Knight of Malta, Knight of the Vatican, Special Friend of Israel, Honorary Royal Marines Green Beret, Honorary Doctor of Law, and, as we already know, Honorary Assistant Entertainment Officer at Broadmoor Maximum Security Psychiatric Hospital. All right. It's quite the catalogue. It's quite the catalogue of titles. Absolutely. So we already know about the hospitals and the psych wards from last week. This week, we're going to tell you about Savile's involvement in children's homes and reform schools, specifically with Dunscroft Approved Girls School, where he sexually abused children and rewarded them with trips to the BBC studios.

Dunscroft was an experimental school for, quote-unquote, disturbed girls that used psychotherapy to correct bad behavior, which in the 70s was considered cutting edge. The mission statement of the school was essentially that every girl, no matter how wayward, could be helped if they were given a stable environment. And yeah, sure, that is a nice message, but it was still very 70s. Girls were rewarded with cigarettes for good behavior, and cigarettes were withheld by staff if the girls were rewarded with cigarettes for good behavior and cigarettes were withheld by staff if the girls were bad i barely got through that without my mouth just convulsing i mean in the 70s you could smoke everywhere you could smoke on the bus you could smoke on the tube you know

everywhere everywhere all the time everyone's smoking it's amazing we don't have like more cancer in this country considering how much everyone was smoking. Fucking hell. That is a lot to take on board. And it only gets worse because at Dunscroft there was also a padded room where the most badly behaved girls would be locked for hours. You know, the ideology is there, the execution not so much. And Jimmy Savile paid the Dunscroft girls frequent visits in the early 70s while he was making Clunk Click, the seatbelt promotional TV flop featuring celebrities and teenage girls on beanbags. And Dunscroft approved girl school would turn out to be the first dropped stitch in the Savile saga that led to his eventual unravelling. And the stitch starts with Kerry, a former pupil at Dunscroft.

Kerry now goes by Kat Ward, and in 2008, her therapist suggested that she write an autobiographical blog in which she detailed her time at Dunscroft, aged 14. Her memories of the school were filled with home economics, which is what food tech used to be called, and screaming coming from the padded room. And a celebrity visitor, who in the original blog posts was called JS. All of the girls at Dunscroft knew two things about JS.

He was super famous and he was a super pervert. A dirty old man that they could all put up with because he bought them better food, gifts and best of all, cigarettes. JS would take the girls for a ride in his Rolls Royce, totally unaccompanied and unchallenged by school staff. During these car rides, J.S. would grope the girls and if they gave him oral sex, he would take them off to the BBC to be on television. J.S. is of course Jimmy Savile, I'm not going to insult your intelligence by keeping that up any longer, but the fact that

it was Jimmy Savile would not be made public for years to come. Kerry's blog just sat on the internet, unread and uninvestigated. Fucking hell. The principal teacher, like the head teacher of Dunscroft during this time, does come up in quite a few of the documentaries, like journalists try and contact her, blah, blah, blah. And similarly to most of the people, she says she had no idea what was going on. Why do you think, lady,

this man who is in his, you know, 50s, 60s, wants to be alone in a car with a teenage girl? What is his motivation there, do you think? He's not just being nice. He's just, it's not that. So like, I just don't believe for a second that she didn't know what was going on. So we'll be coming back to Kerry and Dunscroft later.

But for now, let's visit a garage in Aylesbury owned by Janet Cope, Saville's long-term assistant and biggest defender. He even gave Janet away at her wedding. Janet is quite a tragic figure, I think. Like, she appears in quite a few documentaries and she just seems quite sad. Like, I feel for her. A lot of people paint her as this, like, villain, but I don't think she is. I think she's just quite a sad lady. Janet was plucked from the typing pool at Stoke Mandeville by Saville, and she remained at his side for almost 30 years,

after which he dumped her, rather unceremoniously, for a new management team. Janet cried for a week when she lost her job, and although she admits that Saville was a cruel and calculated manipulator who didn't care about anyone, she remains adamant that she never saw anything that even indicated sexual misconduct. I mean, I don't believe her, but I don't believe that she was like a part of it. I think it's like, I know they weren't probably not

in like some sort of sexual relationship, but she was in like a domestic, she was in like abusive relationship with Jimmy Savile as her boss. Oh, 100%. I think like, I agree with you. I think she knew. I think she was not in a position to do anything about it. Exactly. And also all the people that want to come after Janet for like knowing and not doing anything. She's just like his PA who like got picked up from being a typist at Stoke Mandeville.

She's just some random woman who's like, he's definitely crossing all sorts of boundaries with because that's Jimmy Savile. If you want to point fingers at who should have like said something how about starting with all the incredibly powerful people that surrounded Jimmy Savile who would have absolutely known what he was doing rather than his fucking PA. Right the director general of the BBC couldn't take him down. Janet Cope from Aylesbury won't be able to. Precisely. So Janet told Dan Davies, author of the book In Plain Sight, that Savile hated children, often calling them little brats, and saw them as nothing but a nuisance.

You can watch Janet in multiple documentaries and make up your own mind about what you think about her and her sincerity. But one story really stuck out to us, and it's the main reason that we don't think it was possible that Janet never saw anything. One lady, who we don't have a name for, wrote a letter to Janet Cope when she was acting as Saville's secretary. This letter said that Saville had raped the sender in 1977. This lady received no response to her letter, so she sent a photo frame to Savile.

And in the back of the frame, she slipped a note that read, You raped me in 1977. What became of this photo frame, we don't know. But Janet Cope, who diligently read all of Savile's fan mail, claims to have no memory of the letter or the photo frame. She only said that any nonsense letters got thrown away. But how many accusations of rape does one receive before you stop thinking that it's nonsense? Because I don't believe for a second there was only one. What I think, just an opinion,

I think Janet Cope was probably disposing of these letters. And obviously, you know, famous people do get, you know, stuff from people who, you know, wish them ill or like people who are trying to catch them out or like, you know, there are loads of people out there who are, you know, a bit unhinged. But like, how many does it take? How many letters of the same thing accused from the same people of the same time period, same age? Like, you know, it's difficult to ignore. Saville enjoyed living dangerously close to discovery. He actively enjoyed hiding in plain sight. The closest he ever came to being caught was in 1983, when he was invited to give a talk at a junior school in his native Leeds.

A few days after the talk, two of the girls from the school who'd heard him speak, aged 10 and 11, took themselves off to Savile's flat and rang the doorbell. Savile insisted that the girls come in for a cup of tea and a tour, hardly the behaviour of an adult man who hates children. One of the girls' fathers caught wind of this incident and got straight on the phone to the now disgraced and defunct tabloid, The News of the World. Press and paparazzi were stationed outside Savile's home for months

and pervert rumours followed him wherever he went. But nothing happened. Savile later boasted that the editor of the paper had told him that, quote, we've put you through the washing machine. You didn't even blink once. Savile claimed that he'd earned the respect of all of Fleet Street, but really he just confirmed to himself that he was untouchable. The press was stationed outside his house for six months, followed him everywhere, didn't find anything, didn't get anywhere near the truth. And the press never did, at least not while he was alive. The same cannot be said for the BBC.

In June 2006, the music well and truly died when Top of the Pops was taken off the air. Savile co-presented the final ever edition. And in between takes, he sexually assaulted a teenage girl who was part of the studio audience. He was almost 80 years old when that happened, and it was the last allegation recorded against him. When Savile's 80th birthday did arrive, Prince Charles sent Savile a box of Cuban cigars with a note that read, Nobody will ever know what you have done for this country, Jimmy. This is to go some way in thanking you for that. For what, Charles? For what?

Is there some secret thing that he did that put him in the front lines of the royals and like inside the firm or whatever or is it just running loads of miles and raising loads of money is that it or is there more to it I don't know I think it is just that but I think it comes back to you know you saying that he was kind of like one of these early super celebrities you know now super celebrities are kind of the common thing like everyone feels like they have access huge amounts of access to their favorite famous people. I think at the time that Jimmy Savile was so famous, maybe that kind of superstardom wasn't as common.

And because he went out of his way to portray himself as the common man still, who lived with his mom and he was working class and he'd been down the mines and he was raising all this money for, you know, the sick little kids and all of this. And he's a manipulator. He's so obviously manipulative. And the reason I don't think there's anything more to it is because Jimmy Savile is such a narcissist that he never would have kept anything a secret had there been anything more. Yes, right. Yeah, fact. That's true. That's a very good point.

So two days shy of his 85th birthday in 2011, Jimmy Savile was found dead in his flat in Leeds. He was found by a caretaker, lying in bed, smiling, with his fingers crossed. That fucks me up so much. Yeah. I, nope, nope. Even in death, he knew what was coming. I can't, no, no, I hate it, I hate it, I hate it. I hate him. I hate him. And on the 1st of November, the next day, an email was sent from the BBC's head of events to the commissioning editor, detailing why no obituary had been prepared in advance for the BBC superstar. And this email read, we decided the dark side to Jim, I worked with him for 10 years, would make it impossible to make an honest film that could be shown close to death. A follow-up email read,

something celebrating a particular part of Savile's TV career is probably better than the life story, as there are aspects of this which are hard to tell. And we've got one more email from you, because another one from the head of events read, I'm not sure we want to know. I have a personal interest here. My first job in TV was on a JS show.

I know him well and saw the complex and sometimes conflicting nature of the man firsthand. I'd feel very queasy about an obituary. And I saw the real truth. Fucking hell, BBC. They can't even argue. No, I mean, if you want a smoking gun, if you're like, they're just BBC bashing, no, these emails are fucking smoking guns

because the BBC clearly knew all along what Jimmy Savile was and they chose not to protect people, namely children, or to tell their stories. Even after he was dead. If you're the head of the events at the BBC and your first job at in-TV full stop was on a Jimmy Savile show, you have been kicking around for a long fucking time. You know, there is no way that when Jimmy Savile was asked

to co-present the last ever episode of Top of the Pops, they didn't know. So they were actively putting people in danger and someone was sexually assaulted and that is on the BBC by the point that 2006 rolled around, they somehow learned in those five years between when he last hosted Top of the Pops and he died. Like, bullshit.

They obviously fucking knew what he was and they put him in a room full of children and they enabled and allowed him to sexually assault a fucking teenage member of the audience in 2006. This is just sick. There's no other word. It's fucking sick. And it's also a fact. There's no way around it. This is the truth and it happened. And we're not done yet. Savile lay in state in a tartan track suit clutching rosary beads as thousands and thousands flocked to pay their respects to him in the foyer of a Leeds hotel.

Janet Cope did not attend his funeral. When Saville was buried, he took with him a bottle of whiskey and a cigar in a galvanised steel coffin and a six-foot-wide, four-foot-high granite gravestone that took eight months to craft was erected to mark his grave. Its three granite panels listed his numerous philanthropic and showbiz achievements, and the bottom of the stone read, It was good while it lasted, but the stone would not stand tall for long.

Because investigative journalist Marion Jones had discovered Kerry's blog. Jones had been working alongside Surrey Police on a documentary about tracking down paedophiles when he found Kerry and he knew that there was a story there to be told. He wrote to Newsnight and Panorama, both BBC productions in case you don't know, and initially Newsnight ran with it. Kerry even agreed to be interviewed for Newsnight. During the research for the programme, Surrey Police confirmed that they had received reports from former Dunscroft students of assaults committed by Jimmy Savile on BBC property.

There had been a whole investigation into Savile's activities at Dunscroft entitled Operation Ornament. Barnardo's, which is a charity here in the UK, had helped the police track down Dunscroft girls, and statements taken from many of them included allegations of sexual abuse against Saville. Kerry's most harrowing story was being forced to perform oral sex on Saville in the back of his car until she vomited. She was a child, she was 14 years old. Saville opened the car door, as she did, and apparently shouted at her not to do it

in the car. As a reward for this, Kerry can be seen on a beanbag in Clunk Click. After the filming, Kerry encountered Gary Glitter, another fucking, what do we even say? Mega super pedo. Mega super pedo, exactly. And another one to add to our list of national embarrassments. Embarrassment doesn't even feel like a strong enough word. National fucking travesties that we've allowed to happen in Britain. And yeah, so Kerry met Gary Glitter in a dressing room after Clunk Click. This footage was dug out by a research team putting the Newsnight investigation together. And finding this footage of Kerry on Clunk Click is so important for the putting together of the documentary because it's corroborative evidence, right? It's like Kerry's saying that, you know, he sexually abused me and as a reward, I was, you know, taken to BBC studios, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then they find the footage of her there and you can't argue that it's not her. In cases of historic sexual abuse, it's tricky because there is no physical evidence, right? Because it happened decades ago. And that's, you know, one of the

reasons that survivors find it so difficult to get convictions. So when they find this footage of her, they're like, we're ready to go. We're ready to run with this. This is an absolute cracking story. While they're digging out this evidence, they're also talking to Surrey Police about Operation Ornament. And they find out that Operation Ornament ended with an interview with Savile himself on the 1st of October 2009. Savile had extremely clear memories of Dunscroft. He described it as a posh ball store, which is pretty spot on. But he denied all of the allegations and ended his interview with this choice quote. NHS run it, I own it. If I wasn't here, they wouldn't get the quarter of a million pounds a year

that they need to keep it going. There's nobody these days of that calibre that can do that. It's a complete fantasy. It really, really is. Neither thing was at a place where you could get away with what they said and I wouldn't want to do it in the first place anyway. Complete fantasy. So what he's saying is that he personally funded Dunscroft

and that's why he visited them and that even if he wanted to rape and abuse girls, he wouldn't have been able to get away with it. Fuck's sake. And despite that bombshell, nothing happened. The investigation was not pursued because Savile was found by the CPS to be too elderly and infirm. And his actual name is nowhere to be found on any of the legal paperwork. Wow, wow, wow.

Yeah, I mean, he placed enough people in enough places throughout his career. I wouldn't be surprised if there's someone in CPS too. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is what we were talking about last week. Jimmy Savile Kingmaker. I mean, the fact that they found Kerry's blog at this point, they found the video footage of Kerry at Clunk Click. Her blog posts refer to a man sexually abusing girls at Dunscroft with the initials JS. They interview Jimmy Savile and they don't mention his name anywhere

on any of the paperwork for Operation Ornament. I don't even know what to say. Like, the British justice system, all of these investigations, historical child abuse, we have not even scraped the tip of the iceberg in this country, I don't think, with all the fucking shit that went down. Absolutely not, no.

Disgusting. Later on, when Mary and Jones started sniffing around, CPS informed Jones that the no further action was given to this case because of a lack of evidence, not because of Savile's age or health. And as I said, historic sexual abuse claims do often face this evidence hurdle. But Surrey police had multiple women from the same school who were there at the same time, in the same age range, all with the same allegations against the same man. That seems like a lot of evidence to ignore.

You know what it is. This is just obviously a theory, but I think it's probably quite a solid one. Savile is like the KGB meets fucking Epstein. You're telling me that he didn't have little fucking paedophile parties where he filmed high up members of British society, be it police officers, be it whoever, politicians, celebrities, etc. in compromising positions where they're fucking raping children. And then he doesn't use that as blackmail. Oh, yeah. He had collateral on fucking everyone. Fucking come on, Jimmy Savile.

Like, the reason he probably lived with his mum is because all those other flats that he had were probably just full of fucking leverage that he's got on blackmailing people. Yeah. So Marion Jones and his team of journalists tracked down their own Dunscroft girls, women now,

most of whom had been interviewed by police in 2009, and they all had horrifying stories of groping, shoving against walls, tongues down throats, and forced oral sex. With all of these interviews and the footage of Kerry on a beanbag next to Saval and Glitter, the documentary team knew they were on to a cracking story. Host of To Catch a Predator, Mark William Thomas, was brought on board. He and Marion had worked on a documentary together about paedophile priests previously.

Everything was looking like Newsnight, the famed BBC production, was going to break the story of the century. But they didn't. Word came from higher up that the news night broadcast could not go ahead if your jaw is hitting the floor particularly if you're not british and you're hearing the story for the first time yes strap yourself in the reason given as to why this like fucking explosive documentary on jimmy saville was not to be shown was that the CPS, so the Crown Prosecution Service, had given the investigation a no further action. Therefore, the stories of the Dunscroft girls weren't enough to warrant a documentary. The BBC also cited that the allegations of abuse

occurring on BBC property were given by an unreliable witness. Fuck you. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. There is literally video footage of Kerry, a young girl, sat on a beanbag between Jimmy Savile and Gary Glitter. And they're like, well, you know, on BBC property. And they're like, well, you know, this could be anybody. Kerry's blog is now a published book and it's called Victim Zero

so go and read that and sling some money Kerry's way but like what the BBC are doing here is they're playing straight into Savile's cold dead hands. He picked Dunscroft because he knew the people that he abused there wouldn't be believed. Instead of airing the expose the BBC opted to air a celebratory special Christmas edition of Jim will fix it, hosted by a makeup cake Shane Ritchie, a mistake I'm sure his agent paid dividends for later. But I don't think I can impress this or explain this clearly enough. The BBC via Newsnight had multiple interviews with multiple women from Dunscroft with allegations against Jimmy Savile of sexual abuse. And instead, they were like, no, we don't believe these women. We're going to do a Christmas special instead. Okay, okay. The reason that this is all so much bullshit,

and I cannot even like, fucking wrap my head around it. Do you remember when the BBC called Cliff Richard a paedophile? Yes. So they were willing to be like, Cliff Richard's a paedophile. They got sued. I think they got sued quite extensively by him. I think they did, yeah, yeah. But here they've got on-record interviews with victims from Dunscroft School. They've got a team of investigative journalists who worked on this.

They have got video footage of Kerry, exactly where she says she is on the night that she says that this happened, sat next to, if you're not going to say Jimmy Savile is a convicted paedophile, what the fuck is Gary Glitter? He sat next to her. And they're like, no, we can't run this because it's not solid enough. This isn't a reliable enough story. They called Cliff Richard a paedo and got sued into the dirt. I don't know when that happened. I was trying to like, look while you were talking and I can't find the know when that happened. I was trying to like look while you were talking and I can't find the date when that happened. So maybe they'll be like, we got burnt by that.

That's why we're not saying this. But I feel like it was more recently. What it makes me wonder is, so, you know, my opinion here is obviously that the big bosses of the BBC knew and they knew that if it was exposed, they would be in trouble because they were not taking their duty of care seriously enough because people were getting sexually abused on BBC property.

That's what they didn't want in the press, right? The fact that they thought they could bury that by just not reporting it makes me wonder what else they haven't reported. Have they done it with other stuff that we just don't know about? Have they successfully buried the lead before? So they were like, oh, we'll just do it again with Saville get away with it oh absolutely I definitely definitely think that that is 100% the case like come on like not even just like burying stories but like look at how minimal the coverage has been on things like fucking sweaty nonce Prince Andrew it's all just a fucking farce and very best case the BBC didn't want to

air this because it happened on BBC property and they're like, hey, let's not, you know, score a bunch of own goals here. Which I'm saying that's very best case as in that's not a good thing. I'm saying that's the least nefarious reason. Worst case is because they were all actively involved in this fucking paedophile ring that Jimmy Savile was probably running. And that's why they don't want any of it to come out. Because then the House of Cards comes tumbling down on all of these higher-ups within the BBC think what you want

about the BBC I don't think it's a particularly like progressive forward-thinking institution most of the people there who are higher up I feel like they've been around for donkey's years and it's all very like you want to get into the BBC it's all about who you know not what you know and that's my general feeling about the entire institution. Also, I just looked up when they made the accusations against Cliff Richard. It was in 2014, so it was after this. So fuck you very hard, BBC. Harvard is the oldest and richest university in America.

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Listen to The Rise and Fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery Plus. We are going to pop over to January 2012, which is three months after Savile's death. The Sunday Mirror had got their mitts on the goss and ran the headline, News Night probe into sex claims against national treasure Jimmy Savile axed by BBC bosses. Programme is scrapped days before Christmas TV tributes. The BBC tried to get the story squashed, but it was too big not to run. And where the BBC fail, ITV will step up. The Newsnight investigation became Exposure, and it aired on ITV on the 3rd of October 2013. Also, this is the thing that I find absolutely baffling

about how short-sighted the BBC were about this Newsnight documentary or Newsnight investigation. Of course, if a bunch of journalists have made this and they had tacit approval from you that it was going to go out on Newsnight and then at the last minute you said it wasn't, why did the BBC not think that they would just take it to ITV or Channel 4 or someone else and get it exposed that way like why would you not just fucking bite the bullet and get ahead of it I don't know but they didn't and there's an amazing clip of Jon Snow just skewering

a BBC spokesperson being like so you had all of the information and you chose not to run it. Literally everything that's in the ITV documentary, Newsnight had and didn't run. And the BBC guy is just like, yes. There's no way around it. There's no way around it. I'll link that in the show notes because, I mean, Jon Snow is just a great time. A real national treasure, Jon Snow. True, exactly. Retired now.

He still seems to be on Channel 4 News because people keep saying, but he is on there every night at the moment. So I feel like maybe he's edging his way out. He is also getting quite, bless him, he's getting quite forgetful because Channel 4 News is live. Oh, John. And he does stumble on his lines more than ever. If you're confused about who Jon Snow is, they're not Game of Thrones Jon Snow.

Jon Snow is a newsreader here for Channel 4. But yeah, his wife is like so young. Have you seen her? Yes. She's like 40 years younger than him. Are you surprised? Days before the Exposure documentary went out, the BBC issued the following statement.

So they were informed by ITV. That's the way these things work. It's like if you write a book and you talk about someone in the book, you have to give them the chance to defend themselves. So that's what ITB, they write to the BBC, they're like, we've got you, fuckers. And this is what the BBC said. While the BBC condemns any behaviour of the type alleged in the strongest terms,

in the absence of evidence of any kind found at the BBC that corroborates the allegations that have been made, it is simply not possible for the corporation to take any further action. Which, when we consider the emails that have been flying around the day after Savile was found dead, was a big fat lie. It's just a lie. That's all it is. It's a fabrication. Also, how fucking redundant, redundant is that first sentence, while the BBC condemns any behaviour of this type in the strongest terms, that's the easiest fucking thing in the world to say. Condemn

rape. We condemn child rape. What is even the point of you saying that, BBC? Fuck off. Oh my God, I'm so angry and sweaty in this. I can't cope. So the Exposure documentary opened the floodgates and Scotland Yard set up a task force to investigate every single allegation of sexual assault on BBC property and beyond. And so Operation U-Tree was born. And this is the other thing about the BBC statement, right? They are basically like, there's no evidence, but they haven't done an investigation. So how are you saying that there's no evidence? Exactly. They're just trying to cast doubt on the Dunscroft girls' statements. That's all they're trying to do. So in the five days after the documentary aired, numerous calls were made to

the NSPCC, which is the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to children. And 24 of these calls were handed over to the police. 17 of these were directly related to Jimmy Savile. And sorry, I know I keep coming back to the BBC, but them saying, OK, we did this investigation for Newsnight, we looked at the documentary at the end and we realised that it wasn't reliable enough for us to air. So then those journalists take it to ITV, who were like, yes, this is solid enough for us to air. They air it. And it was so solid that off the back of it, Scotland Yard started Operation

U-Tree and got all the information that they're about to get. So on what planet are the BBC able to say that there wasn't enough reliable evidence? Fuck you. Yeah, there's never enough reliable evidence if you don't fucking look. Yeah. and there's never enough reliable evidence if you're a part of a massive fucking paedophilic rape conspiracy circle. So Operation Nutri is go, Scotland Yard are getting all of these calls. And if people don't know what Scotland Yard is, it's our equivalent to like the FBI. So this investigation revealed that eight criminal allegations had been formally recorded against Jimmy Savile. Two rape and two indecent assaults. A majority of the cases concerned girls aged between 13 and 16. Now we'll never know how many there really were but as if

this isn't fucking enough. It's also worth saying that assault allegations have been made against Savile by young boys too, especially during his Top of the Pops era. Utrecht estimates that Savile had 500 victims, the youngest being two years old. Ugh. Painted into a bit of a corner, thec had their own cracker to savile exposure documentary and released a panorama which was by far too little too late oh my god they're so pathetic and because panorama is impossible to get hold of after a year you can't watch it but the itv exposure

documentary is very easily youtubeable so i can't tell tell you what the BBC Panorama was. I probably watched it at the time, but I can't remember. But it's impossible. You literally cannot find Panorama anywhere. It's only up for a year and then they vanish. No, I even have a friend who works for the BBC. And once we were doing, it was the Joe Cox case and the Panorama on that had been taken down or the BBC doc on that had been taken down. And I was like, please, can you see if you can get it out of the archives? I was like, there's just no way. There's no way. Why is it so fucking secretive? Lizard people, I don't know.

So after the story broke, BBC spokespeople appeared all over the airwaves in all different forms in attempts to defend the decision not to air the Newsnight report. But it was impossible to navigate. And on the 10th of November 2012, George Entwistle stepped down as the Director General of the BBC after appearing in front of the House of Commons Culture, Media and Sports Select Committee. But Utrecht didn't stop. The following household names were caught out. Clunk, Click co-star Gary Glitter was convicted on one count of attempted rape,

four counts of indecent assault and one count of sexual intercourse with a girl under the age of 13. Spin doctor Max Clifford was convicted on eight counts of indecent assault and one count of sexual intercourse with a girl under the age of 13. Spin doctor Max Clifford was convicted on eight counts of indecent assault, which he got eight years inside for. TV and radio presenter Dave Lee Travis was convicted on one count of indecent assault and got three months suspended for two years. And of course, who could forget Rolf Harris, who was convicted of 12 counts of indecent assault against four girls, the youngest being just eight years old. He was sentenced to five years and eight months. For those of you who don't know, those are all BBC people. Like, they are all very firmly under the wing of the BBC.

And also, just the notion that someone like Gary Glitter, who was as old as him, who would have been undoubtedly offending for a long time, you don't just suddenly wake up in your, like, 50s or 60s and decide to be a fucking rapist. Like, that is not how it works. And for him to have been convicted on just one count of attempted rape, fuck off.

As if. As if. Oh, my God. What is happening? Operation U-Tree, although famous, was not without its critics. It was hailed by some as a witch hunt. And guess what gender and colour those people are? Witch hunt just gets thrown around all the time.

But I don't understand, like, when men are raping underage girls on property funded entirely by the British public, is that not the perfect time for a witch hunt? When else is there going to be a witch hunt? Like, what does that mean? It's such a ridiculous thing to say. I honestly don't know. This is the thing, because I was actually really baffled by something, is that when I was Googling pictures of Jimmy Savile,

which is not a nice task to do, but I had to do it for the social post for last week's episode. And when I was just scrolling through, trying to look for the one that he just looked his most despicable I saw there was like a random screen grab from Line of Duty in which Ted Hastings is there pointing the finger at his board and yelling about you know Diesel and then there was like an insert of Jimmy Savile and I think it was from the Daily Mail or something and the headline underneath read fans of Jimmy Savile shocked to hear his name in new Line of Duty series just to be clear this is in relation to the latest season of Line of

Duty that came out this year and yes I watched it and they do say something about Jimmy Savile about him being a child rapist I was like who are the fans of Jimmy Savile in 2021? But clearly, there are still people who defend him, apparently. Oh, they definitely exist. I'm absolutely baffled. Why? Why? I don't know. I think it sort of comes down to people don't like believing women in general. That's something we come across a lot.

And it's the sad truth. But like, there are some people who will not be convinced one way or the other they just believe what they want to believe and I don't know if that whole thing about naming him in there because the BBC definitely went very like look at us we're super different in line of duty the latest season like the whole case that it revolved around was like the murder of a young black man it was very Stephen Lawrence and I think the guy's name in it who was killed was even like Lawrence. And they were like, yes, oh my God, this is despicable.

If the police did this, then they should all be thrown in jail. And I was like, well, yeah, they're still doing it though. Like fucking calm down. Then the whole like Jimmy Savile little Easter egg. I don't know, BBC, I see you. I see you. And of course, the backlash to Operation U-Tree and probably what people who still believe Jimmy Savile is innocent

use to their advantage is the age-old slut-shaming and sexism argument that made an appearance as well. Many lawyers claimed that there was no way that every allegation could be true as they were historic and they couldn't be proven with DNA. And people's memories get confused. There's a lot of that kicking around being like oh wait they can't all be telling the truth. Why? Yeah right yeah there was these women just jumping on the bandwagon and like some of them have had drug problems and they were in foster homes and they've had difficult lives and they're lying for the attention like just every excuse every excuse

apart from the most obvious Occam's razor is that Jimmy Savile was a fucking predatory sexual offender. That's the most obvious answer here. Absolutely. And just the level of like mental gymnastics that one has to do to be like a hundred women are accusing this one man of sexual assault. In my head, I jumped to the fact that not all of them could be true, but every time he denies it, then every denial is true. But although it's 100 women, and I'm saying not all of them could be true. I'm also simultaneously saying because I'm calling them all sluts that not even one of them could be true. Like what the fuck? Oh my god. I don't know. And also like I feel like this is, you know, something that we have discussed before.

The default, I feel, in Britain, it might be different other places, but the default is to just not believe women. Sarah Everard, classic example, everybody immediately jumped to, well, she shouldn't have been out. And with the Jimmy Savile cases, the immediate response was,

well, they probably enjoyed it. They were probably asking for it. The man is never at fault, even when he's Jimmy fucking Savile. Unbelievable. Especially when he's Jimmy fucking Savile. Utrecht wasn't perfect. And I'm certain that there were some people within the BBC that got away with it. And there are people who claim that Savile himself was innocent. There's a book about it, which I'm sorry to say I paid actual money that you can buy other things with for in the interest of journalistic research. But as soon as you realise the book entitled Jimmy Savile, Why I Believe He's Innocent is the third

of his inner series by the same author that's in search famous person convicted as a result of Utrecht here, colon, why I believe he is innocent. It sort of loses all credibility, really. Oh my god. I tried to read it. It's barely coherent. Don't bother. It makes very little sense. And it's basically just like, oh, well, their stories change all of the time. How can they all be telling? It's, yeah, it's absolute bullshit. I'm just like, how was this allowed? Like, not like, I don't think people should be allowed to publish whatever fucking shit they want to publish, or like, we should have any censorship on that but I'm like when we write the book our publishers were like approve this how can you prove this can you back this up can

you verify this like we had to justify every single fucking sentences in that book which was a shocking process because often on the show we're just saying whatever the fuck we want but like how are books like this allowed to be published? I would venture that it was probably a self-publication. I see. British London. I see. British London, exactly. And if you don't know what that is, you're not doing your recommended peep show viewing. So back to this. Overall, U-Tree was flawed. There's no denying that. It was underfunded, underprepared and under-resourced. I wonder why. But the West Yorkshire Police's internal investigation of themselves was way worse.

What a surprise. When a police force investigates itself, they don't do a thorough job, shockingly enough. It's like taking a child away from a family that you suspect of abusing and then allowing that family to investigate themselves as to whether there is abuse happening in that home. For our international listeners and maybe our Londoners that aren't good at UK geography, Leeds, where Jimmy Savile is from, is in West Yorkshire. It's under the jurisdiction of the West Yorkshire Police. So this police force, out of all of the police forces in all of the kingdom, have had the most exposure to Jimmy Savile over the years. So this report that the West Yorkshire Police compiled after investigating themselves was called the New Green Report. And whilst it unveiled that 76 crimes, including 68 victims, had been reported to the West Yorkshire Police concerning Saville,

it spent much more time defending the force for not doing anything for 60 years than it did accepting any responsibility at all for letting all these victims slip through the cracks. Saville was named by Scotland Yard as a prolific predatory sex offender on the 11th of January 2013 and its report entitled Giving Victims a Voice concluded that 73% of his victims were children and that his abuse happened across 14 medical establishments, children's homes, schools and on BBC property. Which leaves us with just one unanswered question. The one that has been playing on every single one of your minds since last week. Did Jimmy Savile, Knight of the Realm, fuck dead bodies?

Answer? fucking probably. Probably definitely. Probably definitely. Necrophilia like cannibalism, unless you catch someone in the act, is quite difficult to prove. We do know that Leeds General Infirmary conducted an investigation into Savile's access to their mortuary and they found that his interaction with the dead was quote not within accepted limits which is an extremely polite way of saying he was at the very least wanking oh my god fucking out so apparently like you know jimmy's obviously best mates with literally everyone at least general infirmary and i think he had access to the mortuary whenever he fucking wanted it and there are numerous staff reports of saville posing

dead bodies some claim that he performed oral sex on them and one nurse recalled being told not to go down to the morgue if quote the pink haired man was anywhere near it fuck so it looks like jimmy saville fucking dead bodies was yet another open secret. Now, I'm obviously not saying at all in any shape or form that necrophilia is worse than child sexual abuse. Of course, that is absolutely categorically not the case. But I would argue that it is more of an outlier. It's more anomalous. It's more shocking, possibly. Yeah, I would say if you were going to do a survey on sex offenders, there are definitely more pedos than there are necrophiliacs. I think you're fairly statistically solid there. So the idea that these people were friends with Jimmy Savile at Leeds Infirmary,

and I'm sure most of them knew that he was sexually abusing the kids, but the fact that they also knew he was going down into the morgue and fucking dead bodies and they were just like okay just don't go to the morgue when he's down there why i don't know what i'm even trying to say but you know what i mean it's just like even if they could tell themselves oh these girls are little sluts they're 15 16 like whatever he's like getting a suck job and then they get to go on the BBC. Obviously, that's not what I think. But some people maybe could have told themselves that. How do you square necrophilia in your mind as being normal in any way or acceptable? Yeah, or excusable because he raised loads of money for charity. Exactly. Oh, you know what? Just let him fuck the corpse. He did just raise a million for the new MRI machine. Like, fuck's sake. Like, it's no, it's not equitable at all.

It was also reported, this makes my skin crawl even more, weirdly, this is from multiple sources, that Savile removed the glass eyes from dead bodies and made rings out of them that he liked to show off. Trophy taking, once again. Yeah, exactly. Can we prove it 100%? Nope.

It's witness reports from the time, you know, which people could say are made up. You know, there's no evidence. We can't ask him. He's dead. But is it extremely probable? It is a yes from me, dog. Like, I just don't believe for a second that a man like Savile, given the freedom that he was given, wouldn't have done absolutely everything he possibly could. Savile is the kind of man who was an opportunistic sexual predator. He went after anyone and everyone he could, but he focused on children, obviously, because they were easy targets for him. As the report said, 73% of his victims were kids. But what we see with Savile is that he was operational for such a long period of his life. And the dep depravity I just feel like it's like we see with all sexual predators it's like a drug right the sexual depravity it gives you enough of a kick at first but you always have to go further and further and further to get that same kick and that's why absolutely Jimmy Savile's depravity would only have continued to grow and there would have been no boundaries this was just a man who it's like we said last time, he was just like a snake locked in a room full of chickens. He could do whatever he wanted. There was no barriers for

him. So it doesn't take a professor of psychology at Trinity College Dublin to figure out what was going on here. But here's Ian Robertson anyway. He identified Savile as having, quote, super sense of being able to sniff out the most psychologically vulnerable who would either not tell or not be believed. And here we have an associate of the highest echelons of British society. This halo that he had around him, Jimmy Savile, that is, likely acted as a protective force field around him, not because of any collusion by any of the elite necessarily, though I would argue doesn't rule it out, but simply because all his charity work and being famous, fine. But I didn't think about like how, when you see someone you respect, like tweeting something or like, you're like, oh, like it must be true because blah, blah, blah has said it. Do you know what I mean? I can see why people were like, oh, well, Lady Diana opened the spinal unit. Jimmy Savile

must be all right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely. In fact, psychologists like Oliver James go as far as to say that Savile could be the perfect example of the elusive dark triad of personality characteristics. The dark triad is where narcissism, Machiavellianism and psychopathy all make friends inside one person. The result is someone like Jimmy Savile. And this is why often when people are like, oh, he's such a psychopath. And I'm like, what does that actually mean? I mean, most psychopaths are narcissists. You know, it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

It's when you put all of it together with things like Machiavellianism that you get this dark triad set of characteristics that makes somebody a predator or can make somebody a predator like Jimmy Savile. So let's break it down. Narcissism should be an easy one. Narcissistic people think that they are the hottest shit ever and are hyper, hyper sensitive to criticism. In God Will Fix It, Savile likened himself to MLK, Gandhi, and even Jesus Christ. There is no arguing that Jimmy Savile is a narcissist. His argument was that if he kept doing so much good stuff, it was only a matter of time until someone would want him dead. Next up, Machiavellianism, which I am particularly a foe with after reading The 48 Laws of Power. Machiavelli was a guy who wrote a book called The Prince in 1513, which was basically a how-to of being a real piece of shit,

but also getting what you want without people noticing. People who are described as Machiavellian are self-interested manipulators, lacking in morality, who eat duplicitous diplomacy for breakfast. Savile definitely ticks that box as well. He convinced the entirety of Britain, including the actual Queen, not to pay any attention to the pedo behind the curtain.

And finally, fan favourite, psychopathy. If you want to find out how to spot a psychopath, buy the book. But here's a Fisher-Price version. Psychopathy is a subsection of antisocial personality disorder. Psychopaths have some feelings, they just don't include empathy or guilt. Having spent so much time in Broadmoor, Savile was well-versed in psychopaths. He spent hours watching documentaries about Hitler and mafia bosses. He visited Nazi concentration campsites, and he said to better understand what the patients at Broadmoor were being subjected to. Author Dan Davis wonders if Saville spent so long looking at psychopaths

to better understand himself. In life, Saville managed to stave off psychoanalysis and psychiatric evaluation for most of it. But an interview he gave to award-winning journalist and current royal commentator Angela Levin was probably more revealing than any mental health assessment would have been. When asked about psychopaths, Savile said,

quote, I know psychopaths. I've seen them at Broadmoor. They have no emotion in relation to human life. But I love certain things. Nature moves me. I just don't have those feelings with another human being

which is exactly what a fucking psychopath would say. Like he's literally just been like the psychopaths at Broadmoor they don't understand human emotions or like the human world and then his example of something that he loves is something that's not human at all. So like a tree.

He's a psychopath. He has no interest in other people or empathy or understanding. I take what Jimmy Savile says about the distinction between himself and the psychopaths at Broadmoor is maybe not so much that they don't understand human emotion is I kind of feel like he's saying, oh, and maybe this is just me like reading too much into it, but they don't understand how to play the game. They don't understand the way things work in human reality. They don't understand how to get away with it.

And I feel like he looks down on them for that. Yes, that's it. The difference is they're in Broadmoor and I'm on the BBC. Because I understand how to play the game or understand how to play humans off each other or something like that. Those who fall within the dark triad's shadowy corners are rated by Dr Peter Jonathan, Professor of Psychology at the university of western florida and his friend gregory webster on their dirty dozen scale

the scale is made up of 12 character traits and the key is unlike the psychopath test the dirty dozen test is performed on oneself by oneself here Here are the questions. Rate yourself from one to seven. And the lowest possible score, apparently, if you score, I guess, obviously, if you score one on all of these 12 questions is 12. Here are those questions to rate yourself. Yeah, let's do it. Rate yourself as we go through. Oh, out loud? Yeah. I don't know. I tend to manipulate others to get my own way what does manipulate really mean okay so you're a solid seven on that one you know i think in its sort of most basic and purest form it's i will do this because i know it will make you do what i want oh yeah i

don't think i do that i don't. I feel like I'm like a three. Yeah, I'll place myself like maybe a four or a five, but I feel like I'm not 100% sure on what they mean by manipulate, but maybe that's just me not willing to look at what it actually means. Go with five. Okay, I'm on a three. I have used deceit or lied to get my own way. We all have. I'm definitely like a five on that, yeah. I felt like I placed myself more at a four there. I've used flattery to get my own way. Yeah. Hard seven. Hard seven. I feel like I'm also a hard seven. I'm just going to get a pen and paper so I can

write my score down. I tend to exploit others towards my own end. Yeah, I don't feel like I do that. I'm going to give myself a one there. I don't think I do. I think I actually would just rather work myself into a frenzy than exploit anyone else. Yeah, work myself into an early grave. Exactly. Then try and exploit anyone else. But I don't know if that's the narcissistic in me coming out be like, well, I just I'll just do it better. I'll do it faster. Okay, next one. Is that a one? Have you given yourself a one there? That's a one, yeah. I tend to lack remorse. So that's a tricky one. I don't think I lack remorse, but I think I'm also a big fan of like, well, it's done now. Let's just get on with it. Let's get over it. Maybe I would say like a three or a four. My base state is remorse. So I'm

going to have to give myself a one. I tend to not be too concerned with morality or the morality of my actions. I don't think I'm hung up on morality because I feel like, on the morality of my actions? No, I don't spend a lot of time sitting around thinking about whether what I'm doing is good or bad, morally speaking. I feel like I just am quite ambivalent and be like, well, I'm not killing anybody. I'm living my life. I tend to not be too concerned. So I guess I would score highly on that. Yeah, I think I would give myself a five,

or I don't think I spend too much thinking about that. I am constantly wracked with, am I doing the right thing? So I'm going to have to give myself a one. I think I feel like I spend more time thinking, am I doing the right thing for my life business wise, or this wise, but not morality wise. I think that's the thing. So yeah, I'll draw a line on that. And I also think I get enraged if I think people are doing something that is immoral. Okay. Okay. I see. I see. Next one. I tend to be callous or insensitive. I have been accused of both of these things. I don't think you are though. I think you're a very like empathetic and sensitive person, but I think like you approach situations,'re like okay well what's the solution whereas some people are like but I just want you to listen to me yeah and I think that is the problem I don't think I am a callous

or insensitive person but I think I can come across that way because I just had like a realization about myself I guess over the last 18 months that I'm just very practical minded and I'm just like this really shit thing has happened I'm so sorry let me help you find a way out of this and not dwell on it. Yeah, exactly. And I don't think that's a negative quality at all. But since I've been accused of it, I guess I should give myself a four because people have said it to me. I don't think you are at all. I don't think I've ever been accused of being callous or insensitive. I'm going to give myself a two, just because I feel like if I go through the whole thing,

just giving myself ones, people are going to accuse me of making up my own score. There comes that morality check again. Yay! Okay, next one. I tend to be cynical. Hard seven. Hard seven for me. I'll give myself a five, actually, because I do like to think that I'm quite optimistic,

but at the same time, quite cynical. You definitely are. I'll go five. I tend to want others to admire me. Hard seven. I don't feel like it's a conscious thought. I appreciate it when it happens, but I don't know how much I consciously think about it. But maybe I'm just not facing up to it.

I'll give myself a four on that. Okay. I tend to want others to pay attention to me. I don't know. I feel like when I want it and then otherwise I just want to be left alone. Absolutely left alone. Like don't even fucking engage with me. Yeah, I think that's a fair assessment.

So maybe a four? I'm going to have to give maybe a four? I'm gonna have to give myself a seven because I need applause to live. I tend to seek prestige or status. Huh. Interesting. Like I want to do well. Yeah. I feel everyone wants to do well. Oh, obviously I seek prestige or status because I won't shut up about the fucking podcast awards obviously that's what I want so I'm gonna have to I'm gonna you know what I'm giving myself a six on that one okay I'll give myself a five on it okay okay okay I tend to expect special favors from others I wouldn't expect that at all. No, I don't think I do that. I don't rely on anyone for shit.

No, I'll give myself a two on that. Okay, so scores on the doors. Okay, so the highest possible score is an 84 and the lowest possible score is a 12. So 84 is obviously like very, very like hard triad. You are locked in the hard triad. 12 is you're just floating around in an ethereal white bubble somewhere. I mean, 12 is you haven't been honest. Okay, your score, should you choose to accept it?

Drumroll, please. Is a 50. A 50. All right. Okay. I'll do mine now. Oh! Oh! What is it?

Hannah McGuire of Aberdeen, Buckinghamshire, sneaks in just behind Saruti Bala with a 48. Oh, there you go, guys. That's over halfway. We've gone over halfway to the highest score. So, yeah. Play along at home. Send us your scores on social media. See if you can beat the balmy 50 that I managed to score myself.

Let's see who's the closest to Savalism of the spooky bitches. That was fun. We should do more psychological tests on the show. That was great. I feel very exposed. One psychiatrist did manage to get hold of Savile while he was alive, Anthony Clare, for his Radio 4 series In the Psychiatrist's Chair. And shortly afterwards, Clare was compelled to write an article about the power mothers can hold over their sons. And Clare wrote, rejecting mother can breed in her son a view of women as controlling and castrating that survives

into adult life and affects and contaminates his relationship with women. Such a son may spend a lifetime taking revenge or trying to win the approval that eluded him in childhood. Either way it is the women in his life who will bear the brunt. Savile preferred to see this relationship in another way. He said whilst alive, the Duchess doesn't nag me to get married and settle down. But in any case, there's no question of it. If I fell into the arms of some other woman, I wouldn't be able to look after my mum so well.

And that wouldn't be fair. Was it all down to Agnes? No, absolutely not. Did Saville use his mother as a veil so people could never ask him why he never married? Of course he did. I think there's no denying that, like the example you just gave from Anthony Clare,

that women mothers do have a huge impact on, and I know Jimmy Saville isn't a serial killer, but, you know, on the lives of serial killers and serial sexual predators. The mother does have a major impact. But was it all down to Agnes? Of course it wasn't. She's just a very interesting part of the story. So there you have it.

An incomplete history of Jimmy Savile. I will throw my hands up to that because 500 victims. We just have to become a Jimmy Savile podcast. Right. Yeah, exactly. So I hope that that has shone some light on the subject for you. I feel like it's one of those cases that's so huge. Everyone sort of vaguely knows the situation, but not necessarily the ins and outs of it.

So I hope that you are now more informed. And well, I never, ever want to look at his face again. And now we don't have to because it's finished. It's over. No, we don't. And if you're like, maybe I want to look at his face again. And now we don't have to because it's finished. It's over. No, we don't. And if you're like, maybe I want to look at his face for just a little bit, you could come and follow us on all the social medias,

on Instagram, on Facebook, and on Twitter, where we will be posting about him. You can also come and subscribe to us on patreon.com slash redhanded, or if you've had your fill of disgusting, gross, pedophile chat today, come listen to us in the immediate afterparty after this, under the duvet, where we'll be talking about something completely different and possibly more fun. Here are some lovely people who became patrons

way back in November 2020. Yes, we are in November, people. We are there. We're almost at the precipice. So, thank you very much to Erin Anderson and Teela, her amazing wonder daughter. Andrea Wright, Lorraine Moore, Gretchen Hereford, Daniel N. Bibber, Mindy Easterwood, Michelle Keen, Esme H., Laura Mair, Demon Brownie, Sinead Dean, Rose Johnson, Catherine Moore, Julia Destamana, Simoril Lekor, Jess Perrin, Josh Markarian, Sabina Carr, Sarah Beth Greentree, Jasmine, Christine, Lauren Alexander, Alish Lola, Izzy Curry, Olly Foley, Molly Kendall,

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Oh, with Matt Shepard. Oh, yeah. Matthew Shepard coming up next week. So hang tight for that. Bye. Bye. I'm Jake Warren. And in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life.

You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump purely by chance, but it instantly moved me. And it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding. And this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus.

Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made, a seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The last person seen with him was Lainey Jacobs, a seductive cocaine dealer who desperately wanted to be part of the Hollywood elite. Together, they were trying to break into the movie industry.

But things took a dark turn when a million dollars worth of cocaine and cash went missing. From Wondery comes a new season of the hit show Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge all episodes of The Cotton Club Murder early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus.