RedHanded - Episode 211 - Lorena Bobbitt & The 8-Inch Carving Knife

Episode Date: September 2, 2021

Lorena Bobbitt, the penis severing incident and the resulting Frankenpenis porn star hit the front pages almost 30 years ago. And since then, this is a case that has never left the public consciousness. However, there is a lot more to Lorena Bobbitt's story than a man's member and a hotdog box. There's a story with two sides and a perfect case study on how society treats survivors. Become a patron: Patreon Follow us on social media: Instagram Twitter Facebook Sources: Website Contact us: ContactSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Hannah.

I'm Saruti. And welcome to Red Handed, a biology-themed Red Handed. Because for you this week, for your ear holes, we have a story that has a penis as the main character with a side serving of male fragility. My favourite. Delicious. Everybody's favourite recipe for happy good fun times. Penis and male fragility. Excellent.

Penis plus male fragility equals absolutely no problems at all for anybody. You probably know the name Lorena Bobbitt, but today is the day you'll find out once and for all if you actually know the whole deal. We're starting this week with the aforementioned main character, a penis. This penis, very much not connected to a body, was flung from a car window at about half past four in the morning on the 23rd of June 1993 by Lorena Bobbitt and her maiden name is Gallo. We'll come back to that. The owner of this penis, Lorena's husband John, was already in hospital bleeding profusely from a gaping hole in his crotch. The doctors on call that night assumed that John's member would be hanging on by a thread, not totally detached. We're just not doing a no eating warning. It's too late. There you go, guys.

You know why you're here. You know who Lorena Bobbitt is. You know. It's not just going to wrap you up in cotton wool, guys. And if you don't know, get to know, because this is happening. Pick up your grilled cheese because it's going to get better. And if you don't know, get to know, because this is happening. Pick up your grilled cheese, because it's going to get better. I'm kidding, don't. So the doctors thought that his penis would be hanging on, but it was not. They were actually told that John's penis was, quote, missing in action.

That's too jokey, I'm going to say. Don't say that. The whole thing about this case is like, so Jordan Peele of Get Out fame has directed the four-part Amazon Prime documentary series called Lorena. And he, in an interview, said like, there is no way of telling this story without humour. And I had to speak to Lorena about it and be like, are you okay with this? Because it's kind of impossible for there not to be an element of humor about this story.

And it's kind of true. Like the last thing I want is everyone being like, oh, if a woman was mutilated like that, you would never make a joke, blah, blah, blah. But like, it's not that that the jokes are made of. It's the way people spoke about it at the time. And that's where the jokes come from. Yeah. I mean, we're not making the joke that John's penis was missing in action. The police and the doctors are saying that. Yeah. It was a joke that was made at the time, which is arguably worse when someone's bleeding to death. He lost like a third of his blood volume. I mean, you would, wouldn't you? A lot of blood down there in the little blood sack.

Yeah. Yeah. Blood is pretty, pretty important in that area of the body. This escaped organ was recovered by police officers from a grassy field opposite a 7-Eleven in Manassas, Virginia. How, how, how, how, how on earth was it possible to be like, no, it's in this, it's in this grassy field we found this penis she told them oh yeah that's true but still I'll drop an earring in my tiny bathroom and I know it's in there safe to say my earrings aren't bleeding little meat sacks but still impressive work it is miraculous that it was found and it hadn't been eaten by a coyote or like stepped on or whatever, you know? Because I don't know which parts of the US like there's just coyotes running around.

But like I watched a whole like shark tank where there was a woman pitching and like a dog gilets that had spikes all over them because her dog had been eaten by a coyote while she was walking it. I was like, how did this little penis escape? Even a bird. Just come down and have a little peck. So they recover the severed penis, which pictures of are readily available, should you feel so inclined. I would recommend not.

And it was miraculously, eventually, reattached. And this penis even enjoyed a short 15 minutes of spangly Sin City fame. But for that bit, you'll have to hang on for a little while. First, we have to meet our second character, the penis thrower. We'll get to the penis owner in a minute. You've got to be patient. So the penis thrower is Lorena Gallo. Lorena Gallo was born in Bucay, Ecuador,

although she grew up in a middle-class family in Caracas, which is, of course, in Venezuela. I should say here that when they couldn't find the penis initially they assumed that she had eaten it which seems like a weird jump like oh I can't find this piece of evidence she must have gobbled it I don't know why would that be the natural assumption? I mean, a penis, you know, relatively isn't that big, especially I assume once it's been chopped off the body. Why was it such a shock that they couldn't locate it immediately? I don't know. Weird. I mean, logical conclusions for everyone. So for Lorena's quinceanera, which is like her 15th birthday celebration,

she was sent on a trip to the United States. And she loved it so much that she decided that she wanted to move there for good. Now, her family didn't actually manage to emigrate to the States, but that didn't stop Lorena. In 1987, she managed to get hold of a student visa and went on her way. While she studied in the States, she worked as a nanny and later on settled as a nail technician. The year after the move to the US,

Lorena met a Marine at a club for enlisted men in Quantico, Virginia. Two months after Lorena met her Marine, she married him. And on the 18th of June 1989, Lorena Gallo became Lorena Bobbitt, John Wayne Bobbitt's lawfully wedded wife. At this point, Lorena was just 20 years old, and John Wayne just 22. They were both very young, but one would hope very much in love. And in love at first, maybe, but toxic and abusive was definitely not too far behind. According to Lorena the physical abuse from her husband John began just a couple of weeks after their wedding. Apparently John had been driving drunk. Lorena said that she didn't like that

and he belted her. This violence continued and in no time at all escalated to rape. Lorena would ask John a question about his spending, his drinking, his need to have his mates day over all of the time. And the answer would always be a fist. John finished his time in the Marines in 1991 and Lorena took up nail technicianry full time. John Wayne Bobbitt didn't do a whole lot of anything. In Lorena's story, she was the breadwinner and John was the abuser. He denies this. Even to this day, he claims to never have

hit her and to never have raped her either. Lorena's story is very different. It's one that included John forcing her to get an abortion and telling her that the procedure would probably kill her. According to Lorena, the abuse wasn't just physical and psychological, it was sexual too. John often raped Lorena both anally and vaginally. But he says again that this isn't true. And this is where this case is very tricky. It's very famous and people very strongly feel one way or the other. Both of their stories are extremely different and they both stick to them for decades. Lorena says he's the abuser. John says he never did anything wrong. And John's lawyer actually says that Lorena's the abuser. But like, it's tricky. I'm not going to tell you

who to believe. I'm going to encourage you to make your own minds up. So John is claiming he's never raped anyone in his life, but multiple statements from those around him claiming he often boasted about forcing sex upon his wife and that he especially liked it when women, quote, squirmed and, quote, bled indicate otherwise. That's quite a specific thing to make up, I would argue. And those are statements coming from his friends. Why would they say that otherwise? Exactly. I'm not saying that women can't abuse men because they absolutely can. Women absolutely do beat men. But so much of Lorena's story is like forced penetration.

And that's tricky. So in 1990, the young, miserable couple ran into financial issues. John was consistently out of work, so they couldn't afford to keep up with the mortgage payments on their house. So in 1990, the young, miserable couple ran into financial issues. John was consistently out of work, so they couldn't afford to keep up with the mortgage payments on their house. Lorena stole from her employer to try and solve this problem. She also shoplifted dresses in an attempt to appear more attractive so that her husband would stop sleeping with other women. He didn't.

And he didn't stop hitting Lorena either. In fact, the police were called to a domestic disturbance at the Bobbitt home in February 1991. And John subsequently pleaded guilty to assault and battery against Lorena. But these charges vanished once he agreed to go through counselling. These 911 calls are interesting. They come up again and again of their, in total, four 911 calls made from the Bob at Home before the, like, infamous incident. And John's lawyer in the Lorena documentary

says that three of those calls were made by John, you know, implying that it was Lorena that was, like, beating him up. I don't necessarily think that means anything. Like, I can see a situation being like, oh, you're going to keep screaming? Then fine, I'll call the police. They'll shut you up. Like don't necessarily think that means anything. Like I can see a situation being like, oh, you're going to keep screaming, then fine, I'll call the police. They'll shut you up. Like I can see that. But then maybe I'm wrong. And maybe John was being abused by Lorena as well. You know, it happens. This is the thing with the who was doing it. It's very hard for anybody to know because like you said, in this scenario, when the police turn up, he does admit it. He

pleads guilty to having done it. But then those charges disappear. So they're not technically on record anymore. And it all becomes like he said, she said. It's a very complicated case to try and pick apart. We'll just have to get through it. And I guess people have to somewhat make up their own minds, like you said. We don't have any special insight that can blow this case wide open and say for sure

that she was doing it or he was doing it. So yeah, they go through counselling, but it didn't take. And so Lorena and John separated in October of the same year. But they wouldn't stay separated for long because they got back together the following April. Although Lorena was still in the process of filing a protective order against the man she thought was the love of her life. It's like you see, it's very like so toxic a relationship. They break up and they get back together while she's still pursuing filing a protective order against him. I mean, I'm not like laughing in the sense of like, what a ridiculous thing, because we know this kind of thing happens all the time.

It's just the actual nuances of the case, like how toxic this scenario is and like how it led up to what eventually happened. So some people are of the opinion that John was the dependent and therefore in a less powerful position in the relationship. This is really important because basically John is the one who doesn't have a job. Like Lorena says, she was the one who was working as a nail technician. She was the breadwinner. So people kind of try to say that because John wasn't bringing any money into the house, that he was the one who was in a less powerful position, which I find very hard to take that on. We've seen many, many cases where the man will be economically abusive with the woman. She's the one who goes out to work and he'll still take all of the money and be in control. I can't say definitively that's what was happening here, but I think it's not like a smoking gun to say, oh, he wasn't in work, so he's the dependent.

Yeah, it's not an automatic, like, she must have been abusing him because he didn't have a job. Like, I really don't think it's that simple. But whether we think this relationship is toxic or not, it is. As with many toxic relationships, there is a lot of kind of like idealization going on. For Lorena, and she puts it this way, John was her American dreamboat. When they had met, Lorena had been swept off her feet.

John was symbolic of the America that she thought was beautiful. I also think there's kind of this romantic element of it because he's like an American Marine. All of this, like it's all very romanticized. And again, I'm not obviously saying that any romantic relationship or any romanticized scenario is toxic. But hey, we've all been there. Like getting swept off your feet that early is usually not a sign of anything good. And as we know, in this case, that dream that Lorena had for her and John didn't come true, or at least not with John. And by that fateful,

now famous night, or infamous night, in 1993, the pair had agreed to separate once again. And it's really interesting, in quite a lot of interviews, Lorena said, like, yeah, he was abusing me, but I wasn't going to let an abusive man get in the way of my American dream. I wasn't letting him win. I wasn't going to leave. And then even after it all happens, she doesn't leave Manassas. She still lives there.

Because she's like, why would I let him have the last laugh? While we can look at that and be like, she's just a woman who was going to have what she wanted, she was determined enough to leave her family at such a young age because she wanted to come and live in the United States. That was her dream. That was her goal. She was very mission-orientated, let's say. But I think other people looking at that scenario will be like,

well, she can't really have been being battered by him because, look, she didn't even leave. She didn't even leave the area after. She was that scared. Why didn't she go somewhere else? Why didn't she go back to where she'd come from? And I think that is definitely a narrative that I think a lot of people, whether consciously or subconsciously, will definitely be holding on to as to why they think she wasn't really the victim of abuse, which is nonsense. So let's get back to the night in question. Early on, perhaps to celebrate his soon-to-be divorce, John took himself off with his mate

called Robert Johnson. Some say to get hammered. John says that they weren't drunk at all, that they only had two beers and two B-52s each. If you don't know what a B-52 is, it's a shot that's like Kahlua and Bailey. It's like a baby Guinness, but with something extra in it. I can't remember. Oh, Grand Marnier. Oh, yeah. Well done. I knew you'd know. Yep, yep. I made a fair few of those in my time.

They are very cute. Get yourself a little shot glass. Fill it up with Kahlua. Little bit of Bailey's on top so it looks like a little mini Guinness. Then a little trickle of Grand Marnier on top. Boom, you've got yourself a B-52. So, you know, that's not going to make you fall over. Even two of those, you'll be fine.

So John claims that he was not drunk at all, and he was so not drunk he even folded his clothes when he got home, which is a sure sign of someone who's not been drinking. Absolutely. So both Robert and John returned back to the Bobbitt home in the middle of the night. John went into the bedroom where Lorena lay sleeping, and then, according to Lorena, he anally raped her.

If you believe John Wayne Bobbitt, which I don't, this was consensual. John used to sign himself into the gym as Jean-Claude Van Damme, which I think tells you everything you need to know. Oh, God. The thing is, it's so cringe, and again, I'm not here to defend him because I like don't know. And I really feel like I would believe Lorena in this situation. But like, he just runs around like acting like a bit of a dick. And like, I know his friends say that he's telling them he likes to watch women squirm and stuff. That's a very separate thing, of course. But like, is he just a dick or is he an abuser? I lean towards abuser, but it's very hard to know. After Lorena was raped by John, he fell asleep and she went into the kitchen for a glass of water. Then she saw a knife.

Lorena took this knife back into the bedroom with her and cut off John's penis with it. And then she took it with her, along with $100 and a Game Boy, into the car. Lorena drove for 15 minutes before realising that she couldn't drive effectively with a severed penis in her hand. So she threw her husband's genitalia out of her car window. The organ flew through the air and fell onto a grassy field across from the 7-Eleven on Maplewood Drive, where it would be recovered a few hours later by cross-legged police officers. And like we said, the police did manage

to find the penis because Lorena being, quote, not a vindictive person, told them where to find it after her friend convinced her to turn herself in. Still, I'm shocked. I'm shocked that you could just throw it into a field and be like, it's in that field. Off you go. And apparently the grass is like knee to thigh height. It would have been a tricky job. Yeah, definitely. I am impressed. So once the police had foraged around for some time, the severed penis was recovered. And also bear in mind that this is in the dark. This is at night. They're found in the dark in thigh-high grass, a severed penis. And after a few arguments between the police officers who had found the penis had eventually subsided regarding who was going to pick up this severed organ, it was picked up and it was put in a hot dog box,

kindly donated by the good people at the 7-Eleven. I feel like we're making jokes. I know, it's just unavoidable. We're not lying to you. This is facts. Facts is facts. Guys, facts is facts. And this is what happened.

They put it in a fucking hot dog box, of all things. And it gets even worse slash better because the hot dog brand that this box was for was called, and this is not a joke, Big Bite. I couldn't write it. I couldn't write it. So the genital arrangement was put on ice and ambulanced to the Prince William Hospital. Prince William Hospital. There's a Prince William Hospital in Virginia. Why? I'm almost certain that Virginia and West Virginia used to be owned by the Grosvenor

family, who are very prominent in the House of Lords, I think. So like Grosvenor Square and stuff? Yeah. Okay. Of Grosvenor Square fame, I see. I used to work there, that's why I even remotely know what I'm talking about. Anyway, so it was taken to the Prince William Hospital, where, I would assume a very eager John Wayne Bobbitt was waiting for it. Urologist Dr Jim Sen was also waiting. Now, before the missing member had shown up in its Big Bite hot dog box, Dr Sen had assumed that he would be tasked with turning a male plumbing system into a female one. Apparently, those operations don't take very long. And I guess

he was just like, you know, ready to go. Yeah, another day at the office. No problem. Male to female plumbing system. In and out. Bish bash bosh. Let's do this. Sir, could you please stop crying? This is what we have to do now. But there is, of course, the plot twist of the penis turning up. And apparently, reattaching an entire human penis that has been flung out of a car window is an entirely different affair. And one that Dr Sen couldn't handle alone. So he called on the help of plastic surgeon Dave Berman.

Dave couldn't wait to get started. The microscopic reattachment of blood vessels was his whole bag. Generally speaking, urologists don't do a whole lot of transplants, so Dr Sen was very happy that Dr Dave Berman could help him out. The pair worked together for nine hours, taking just one bathroom break each, and they reattached John Bobbitt's severed penis. And they sighed with relief afterbitt's severed penis.

And they sighed with relief after it turned pink once the tourniquet was removed. I love this shit. I love it so much. Oh, God. I honestly, I've spent so much time over the last two weeks, like, looking at, like, microscopic blood vessel reattachment and how it works. It's so cool. It's cool I mean it's fascinating it's fascinating the idea of like surgeons being able to microscopically reattach tiny tiny tiny blood vessels and reattach an organ as as soft as that and get it to work again it's incredible but just the idea of this penis that had just like I assume

possibly started to go a bit gray because it was in a field outside of 7-eleven for how many other hours now going pink again I know it's miraculous but also quite disgusting yeah you do look a bit green, to be honest. I'm feeling it. I'm feeling it. So pink, not green, was good news. Green is never good news. No, no, no, definitely not. Pink means blood flow, which we all know is a key component of keeping something alive. And in this case, keeping this little something fun. Blood is also very important for that. Very important. But no one was out of the woods just yet. There was no guarantee that this penis would stay connected. When John Bobbitt woke up after the surgery,

he was told in no uncertain terms that there was absolutely no guarantees that his penis wouldn't turn black and fall off. I can feel bums clenching around the globe. But luckily for John Wayne Bobbitt and his penis, these doctors did an amazing job. John Bobbitt retained a perfectly functional, if a little odd-looking, genital arrangement. His confidence wasn't hurt too badly, according to the nurses. He spent most of his time trying to pick up candy stripers. Eventually, John went home from the hospital without a candy striper and the press had the time of their life. What's a candy stripe? Oh, it's so usually they're very, very young, like studenty age, and they go around handing out

medication. So they're not nurses. It's kind of like one below a nurse. And they have like stripy aprons like a candy cane. Okay. Oh, I thought it was because they were giving people drugs and they were like, oh, it's my candy. I mean, it might be. Who knows? This case was unique in a lot of ways, but the most important one in the eyes of the press

was that now they could say the word penis. They could write it. they could publish it, they could even read it out loud on TV. And that was a watershed moment. Lorena was in the same hospital, undergoing questioning and a rape kit. After that night, Lorena was charged with malicious wounding and her trial was set for the 10th of January, 1994.

John went into hiding on a cattle ranch in Colorado and the people of Manassas went wild. There were even people selling t-shirts outside the courthouse that read Manassas VA a cut above the rest. I mean these people know how to uh do some quick turnaround merch. I appreciate that. Oh yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And John has his own trial and the same lady sold t-shirts outside that one that said Manassas, Virginia, please don't cut me short. Oh, oh, that's deep. And she's like, she gives an interview and she's like, I'm just doing the same thing the press is doing. Exactly. No, you know what? I fully appreciate that woman. I'm not here to fucking stamp on her work because she's just doing the same thing we are. And we're

just doing the same thing the press does. I'm not going to go off on a rant about this, but I do find it interesting when people write to us and they're like, I can't believe you're covering this case. I'd be like, have you not read about it in the news? How do you know about it? Yeah. Have you not seen it on the literal news? Why are we not allowed to talk about it in the news how do you know about it yeah have you not seen it on the literal news why are we not allowed to talk about it like i find that such a weird mentality of like oh some people can talk about it but you can't talk about it we could talk about whatever the fuck we want like sorry sorry about it and this t-shirt seller who was selling the uh a cut above the rest t-shirts didn't just you know go for a nice little font work like we often do

they decided to chuck in a graphic because it also had a knife dripping with blood on the t-shirt i'm not really one for a blood t-shirt but more power to you though we still get periodically requests from people asking us to do merch with the two red hands over the boobs. It's not going to happen. Red boob hands. I'd forgotten about red boob hands. It's never happening. So with this trial, with these t-shirts even possibly, Manassas was on the map and Lorena was in the stand. The narrative that the outside world ran with was that Lorena was a hot-headed Latina that emasculated her husband in a jealous rage. She was the woman that the feminists wanted. I do think that that stereotype of like the hot-blooded Latina who's really sassy and like, like that is so perpetuated constantly by Hollywood. I feel like anytime you see a Latina

or Hispanic woman who is on TV in a Hollywood sense, she's always just this like loud mouth, hot-blooded, sassy, she's going to fucking cut you kind of woman I'm like maybe there are also some introverted Latinas and Hispanic women that we could also showcase like what is with this racial stereotyping that is constantly happening and I totally think that Lorena fell into that exact camp with the way that the world saw her absolutely because. Because can you imagine like if she was like this demure, meek, like very like pixie featured blonde white woman that anybody would have been saying that she was some hot-blooded like sassy bitch who cut her husband. They'd be like oh my god she was abused. She must have been abused by him. Look at her. And I think there

is definitely racial stereotyping is a massive part of this case. There's no denying it. It's very interesting that obviously men and women are going to feel very differently about this case. And in the interviews with like police officers and like nurses at the hospital, all of the men say, you know, like, I immediately got so worried and I started to think about my wife. And all of the women say, what did he do? All of the women immediately were like, he must have done something pretty bad. I mean, of course, with any situation like this, there's no way that people can't be biased. I understand that. I think asking people not to be biased is a very foolish thing to ask of human beings. We're all biased. We all approach everything, every story we read, every encounter we have through the lens of our own experience.

And as women, you are going to look at this case and be like, what did he do? Of course you are. Because that's the way that we've been set up. And, you know, I just think also you add on top of that another filter of racialness. And I think, bing, bang, boom, you've got this case. So the media buzz surrounding this case was mainly focused on the idea that if we let those pesky feminists have their way, that every wife in the country would cut off their husband's penis in his sleep. Again, I love this idea that all feminists want, all we want as feminists, is to be able to cut off the dicks of every man that we encounter. Why would we do that? why would we do that why would we do that there definitely were at the time like some women that were like you've done what I always wanted to do and even some of them like turned like the peace sign into like a snip but you know I would argue a minority

that that's just it's not we just we'd like to be paid the same please exactly exactly fucking hell okay right let's clarify that you know red-handed feminism we don't stand for cutting off the penises of all of the men around us sorry media sorry about that but the story that Lorena told on the stand and still tells today because remember she's held on to the same story for decades, is that she didn't maim her husband to teach him a lesson or even to get revenge. She said that she did it to survive because she was fighting for her life. Lorena's initial police statement was presented in court. The quote that is always talked about is this following one that I'm about to tell you. Hear us out because we're

going to dig a little bit deeper into this. In her initial police statement, Lorena said the following, he have orgasm and not wait for me. John's defense attorney joked that this was a lesson for men, obviously implying that Lorena was so enraged that her husband was a selfish lover that she made sure he could never have sex again. And this is it. Basically, what they're saying is that Lorena is saying, he had an orgasm before me and doesn't that make him a selfish lover, so I cut his dick off.

To be clear, Lorena did say those words, he have orgasm and not wait for me. But crucially, the thing we have to remember is that Lorena at this point was still learning English and she was not offered a translator at the police station. That is unforgivable. Like, I know it's 1993, but like, I also think her not being super comfortable in English

is another big reason why she was very dependent on John and not the other way around. But not giving her a translator at the police station is absolutely indefensible. And what Lorena claims that she meant by her statement was that she had told John she did not want to have sex and then he had raped her. So as you can see, that quote, if you take it to be from someone who is a non-native English speaker who was still learning English at the time, of course, you could take from that he have orgasm and not wait for me to be I didn't want to have sex with him and he had sex with me anyway, which is what Lorena says she meant. And that's what her defense team say. Obviously, John's attorneys are saying she said what she said because that's the truth. And again, it depends who you believe, whose side are you on? And onlyusted by was a lot of articles about this case refer to non-consensual sex, which we are obviously not going to be doing because non-consensual sex

doesn't exist. What does that mean? It's like a child prostitute. That thing can't exist. It's rape. And it's not child prostitute, it's a fucking child rape victim. Let's be clear. One of the things that comes up is if John says, well, we had consensual sex, then why did Lorena attack him, seemingly out of the blue? Well, John and his mother claimed that Lorena attacked John because he was planning on leaving her

and that put her chance of a green card in jeopardy. Again, you guys have to make up your own mind about that. It's all very he said, she said. We just don't know. But a crucial piece of evidence was the knickers that Lorena had been wearing that night. They were torn, which is a sign of force, which is what you need to prove rape.

But at trial, John's attorney presented expert testimony, our favorite thing in the world, that indicated that the underwear had been cut and then ripped. John's lawyer made the point that Lorena worked at a nail salon, where the most prevalent tool is scissors, implying, I guess, that Lorena had cut the underwear herself to make it look like she had been raped. What the fuck? She works around scissors. She cut it herself.

And also, fucking shows what he knows about nails. Like, I get my nails done often. Never scissors. Never scissors. Like, you're not a baby. It's not baby's first, like, fucking nail trim with those tiny little toy scissors. Never scissors. Like, you're not a baby. It's not baby's first, like, fucking nail trim with those tiny little toy scissors. What adult person is getting their nail cut with scissors? You need, like, a fucking sand belt to cut my nails, to file them down.

Like, a pair of scissors. Who is he kidding? Fucking hell. You want it to be like a little legally blonde moment where they come in and they're like, excuse me. That's exactly what it should have been. He's obviously being like,

oh, well, obviously she knew that the only way to make it look like a rape was to provide this like element of force. I'm like, how would she have known that? How would she have known that that is the particular thing in the law that you need? Like, I don't believe that. And I don't believe that they were cut with scissors either.

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early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Anyway, Lorena's attorney decided to run with an insanity defense, which is extremely difficult to pull off. You need to be able to prove a major medical disorder that would have directly impacted your ability to know right from wrong, which is a tough ask. Lorena was diagnosed with PTSD in the lead up to the trial. So their argument is that moments before she grabbed the knife She had been raped by her drunk husband And that was an assault that had tipped her over the edge Lorena testified that she had endured years of rape and physical abuse Although we already know John always denied raising a hand to his wife

But several witnesses stated they had heard John brag that he had a penchant for forced sex, which again, not a thing. It's rape. Witnesses also testified that Lorena was often bruised around her neck and that she had called 911 to her house several times. Again, who made those calls is up to you to decide. After all this had been heard by the court, the jury deliberated for six hours. For John, the system had failed. For Lorena, life was about to begin. The jury returned a verdict of not guilty by reason of temporary insanity. This meant that Lorena had to do a mandatory 45 days in psychiatric hospital, after which she was deemed to be no danger to herself or to others, and she was allowed to return to Manassas, where of course

everyone knew her name. But before we get into the totemic cultural impact this story had on the 90s, let's have a closer look at what many believed Lorena to have had. Something called battered woman syndrome. Battered woman syndrome is the culmination of long-term domestic abuse and can often lead the victim to believe that they deserve the abuse they are experiencing at the hands of their domestic partner. There are accepted to be four stages of battered woman syndrome. Firstly, denial. The person is unable to accept that they are being abused, and often they justify the abuse as a one-off instance.

Next up, stage two, the Catholic's favorite, guilt. The person is convinced that they have caused the abuse themselves, so they deserve it. Then, stage three, enlightenment. They see the abuser and the abuse for what it really is. And finally, stage four, responsibility. The person accepts that the abuser is at fault and holds them responsible for the abuse. This is when the abused person is most likely to look for a way out of their situation. And we also know that this is the point in which

most women who are in this situation are at the most danger. So key traits of battered woman syndrome tend to fall under these categories. Thinking that the abuse is their fault, hiding the abuse from friends and family, fearing for their lives or the lives of their children, believing that the abuser is an all-knowing kind of entity and can see their every movement, being afraid and never knowing what side of their partner they'll see that day,

a loving partner or an abuser. Battered woman syndrome is now recognized as a mental health condition that can hold serious sway in the courtroom. Take a look at the case of Sally Challen, for example, which is a case that we actually covered. I don't know. I can't even think in terms of months or years anymore. At some point in the past, we've covered that case. Go search red-handed Sally Challen and you'll be able to find it. Now, for the law, battered syndrome is an indication of the defendant's state of mind and it serves as a mitigating circumstance.

So if it's a mitigating circumstance, the question becomes then, does the court agree that the woman thought she was justified in attacking, perhaps even killing her abuser, and that she was in quote, reasonable fear of imminent danger because of the sustained abuse that that woman has experienced. No one's going to say they're getting off scot-free. It's like whether it becomes a manslaughter or whether it becomes temporary insanity. No one's getting away with anything here. I think that's something we need to make a point of. But back in the 90s, and in Lorena's case, domestic violence was not as understood as perhaps it is now.

Obviously, we can still be doing a lot better than we are. and in Lorena's case domestic violence was not as understood as perhaps it is now obviously we can still be doing a lot better than we are but the phrase quote just a domestic was thrown around a lot that somehow hitting a woman that you're married to is less bad than hitting a woman on the street which obviously just feeds into this patriarchal idea of women being property and you can do what you want with something that's yours. And we haven't quite managed to let go of that. I don't want to be misinterpreted here. Of course, any gender can be a victim of domestic abuse and often battered woman syndrome is called battered person syndrome. However, we are talking about women now. So that's what we're going to do. But having said that, I'm going to jump straight to talking about a man. What people often forget is that John Bobbitt has his own charges to deal with he was charged with marital assault notably not rape and that's not because he wasn't

accused of rape it's because in the state of Virginia at the time spousal rape is only applied to couples who did not live together or where serious injury was incurred, like fatal or long-term injury. What? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So either you have to really, like, maim them forever or not live in the same house. I really don't understand this logic of spousal rape only applying to couples who don't live together.

What? What does that mean? I don't live together. What? What does that mean? I don't understand. What it means is that, like, you cannot rape your wife. If you're separated, then that's rape, but you cannot rape your wife because she belongs to you.

Jesus fucking Christ. I am horrified. This is the 90s. This is the 90s. We were born, Hannah. We were little girls that had been born into this world where apparently you could fucking spousally rape your partner. And it didn't matter as long

as you live together. What? Yeah. And in the UK too, marital rape only came into legal language in the 90s. So we're not any better. Oh no, I would never claim to be. I would never claim to be. Absolutely not. Fucking hell. Jesus. I need to sit down. So essentially, it was a legal impossibility in the state of Virginia, and a lot of other places too, but let's deal with Virginia, a legal impossibility for a man to rape a woman if they lived under the same roof. And that's the problem with this whole case. People are incapable of seeing Lorena through anything other than the male gaze. And that's the problem with this whole case. People are incapable of seeing Lorena through anything other than the male gaze. And I'm not trying to equate the two things. I'm just saying something that popped into my head during the research for the book. And if you haven't got

the book yet, go get the book. Where we did an entire bit in there about bestiality and about the laws around bestiality and around how there are states in the US who, by this legal framework we've just discussed around Lorena's case, there were states in the US that had laws against bestiality before they had laws against raping your own wife. Help. Yes, send help. Something that happens not just in true crime, but just media in general. It's like the Bechdel test thing, where a film can only pass the Bechdel test if two women have a conversation that's not about a man

and all of the women characters have to have names, etc., etc. And I feel like with Lorena, people only see her at the time as how she relates to John Bobbitt. Like, he is the central figure, and then everything she does is in relation to him. She isn't an independent character in herself. Where actually, it's my personal opinion, is she did it because she couldn't stand him.

Not because she couldn't have him. And that's the argument that people who think that she is the abuser make, is that like, oh, if I can't have you, no one can. And I just don't. Again, that like hot-blooded Latina thing is, you know. But anyway, John's trial wrapped up in 1993 and he was acquitted with little fanfare. Now to say that this case is famous would be a massive understatement. But people remember it, we think, for the wrong reasons. It's kind of become a bit of a joke in true crime circles, I think. Like even when you hear the name Lorena Bobbitt,

I feel like people suppress a little giggle, you know, because they know about the penis. Absolutely, yeah. And actually, this case should be looked at as an illustration of the horrors of toxic relationships and of domestic abuse. And because of the punchline of the dick cutting and the hot dog box, etc., the reason why this happened is never really asked for or even really explored. This case definitely started conversations, but not all of them had positive conclusions. For example, the New Yorker ran an

article called Wife Rape? Who Really Gets Screwed? Kill me. I would like to die, please. That article makes the point of being like, oh, well, you know, if one wife starts calling it rape, then, you know, we're all going to go to prison. Like, that's essentially the point it makes. Like, I think it ran in Penthouse first and then the New Yorker ran it. Jesus fucking Christ. What the fuck? Like, I am horrified. I'm horrified, but not surprised. And if you want to understand, like, the level to which this case entered the pop culture mentality

is that Lorena even made it into Eminem lyrics. And Robin Williams' comedy set. Robin Williams had a whole bit about Lorena Bobbitt. Oh, well, there you go. And John Bobbitt was famous too. He became a regular fixture on The Howard Stern Show. Okay, quick break for net worth top jumps. How much do you think Howard Stern is worth?

Ah, fuck, fuck. Is it top jumps if we pick another person, say, higher or lower? Ooh, okay. No, I think I want a blind stab in the dark first, and then you can have a clue. Okay, okay, okay. And just in case those of you who don't remember the last time Hannah and I played net worth top trumps, Dr. Phil is worth more than Beyonce, so take that with you. Okay, right. Howard Stern, how much is he worth? God, some obscene amount of money, surely.

I'm going to say, I think I feel, I can't have any concept of money. I'm going to say 10 billion. 10 billion? Yeah. No. Less? Less, yeah. One billion.

Less. 500 million. More. 750 million. Close, but less. 680 million. You're going to have to tell me now. 650 million. I'll give you 680. Okay. Okay. That's a lot of money. That's a lot of millions. Howard Stern. Wowzers. More than Dr. Phil. More than Beyonce. Wowzers trousers. Wowzers trousers indeed. Fuck it now. All that money doesn't necessarily buy you class or make you a good

person. Because Howard Stern said on the air while he was talking to John that he didn't believe that John was raping Lorena because she's not that great looking. The classic, the classic, I didn't rape you because you're not that hot argument. That, I believe, a former president of the United States may have said about the women that came out and accused him of sexually assaulting slash raping them. Always fun to rape a woman or sexually assault her and then call her a dog afterwards as for the reason why you wouldn't have raped her. Love it. Love it. Fuck you, Howard Stern. Honestly, like my jaw was on the floor when I read that. I mean, yeah. Howard Stern even fronted a fundraiser for John's medical and legal bills. And the progress of this fundraiser was, of course, logged by a giant dick-o-meter.

Because how else could you do that? It's just this like giant, veiny, paper mache dick that's like going like up and down. Howard Stern used to do like a New Year's Eve pageant that's like Miss New Year's Eve that was on TV. And like one of the years he fundraised for John's legal and medical bills. And it's yeah, it's literally this like giant, veiny penis. And then next to it is like a very scantily clad woman that's like touching it loads. And then when it reaches the top of the target, so when it's pointing straight upright, some confetti comes out of the top. Oh, I was

going to say, did it spunk a bunch of money when it won? Yes. Yeah. Yes, it did. Excellent. Excellent. You know, sometimes I get very, very, well not sometimes, a lot of the time I get very, very annoyed about the world in which we live today, where everybody gets yelled at for every single thing that they say and people lose their minds all over Twitter all the fucking time. But then I think back to the past and I'm like, let's kill that too. Let's cancel the past. Let's cancel it all, you know. I don't know where I should live, which era. It's all very irritating and disgusting, really. Fucking hell. Make me an amoeba next time. I might do something really bad. So I just come back as a little amoeba and I don't have to deal with anything. The Hindu way. The Hindu way. That's

all you need to do. And if you think we're being distasteful, talking about money being spunked out of a giant Pepe Mache penis, well, it's about to get a whole lot worse. Because this money that Howard Stern raised, because you'll'll remember he's already had the penis surgery his penis has already been reattached so this money was actually used to fund a penis enlargement surgery which brings us nicely onto the next section of john wayne bobbitt's life which we shall call the franken penis era era. And he calls it that too. Time to dust off those sex hats, my friends. Because John Wayne Bobbitt embarked on a porn career,

although it was rather short-lived. He starred in two features, John Wayne Bobbitt Uncut, which is apparently still one of the highest-grossing adult films ever made. And his second film was called John Wayne Bobbitt's Frankenpenis. Oh my God, I can't cope. According to John, this was the most obvious move to prove to the world that his penis worked. Nothing about that screams male fragility slash fucking toxic masculinity, does it?

Oh my God. Yeah, oh my God, I does it? Oh, my God. Yeah. Oh, my God. I know, I know, I know. He also worked as a part of a knife-throwing act in a circus, appeared on WWE, and he also worked as a greeter at the famous Bunny Ranch in Nevada. According to the women who worked at the Bunny Ranch, the famous Franken-penis looked like a dented Red Bull can. And John Wayne Bobbitt whipped it out all the time.

A dented Red Bull can. It's not the way you'd want to be described. No. Don't try and find it. Dr. Sen, our urologist from earlier, has watched the porn film Franken-penis so you don't have to. And apparently, the production's extremely poor. But, like John said, it did prove that his penis certainly worked. And I don't know why, but this gets me more than anything else. Not more than anything else, it just gets under my skin.

As soon as John got his hands on a publicist and media attorneys, he declared bankruptcy, which meant that all of John's debts were written off, including his medical ones, meaning that Dr. Sen and Dr. Dave, the plastic surgeon, never got paid for reattaching the completely severed number, the most famous penile attachment in the world. No one got paid for it.

Bloody hell. You'd be pissed, wouldn't you? Oh, furious. So, Lorena has kept out of the sex spotlight, but not for a lack of offers. She was actually offered a million dollars to pose for Playboy, but Lorena turned it down. Instead of chasing fame,

Lorena has started a non-profit called Lorena's Red Wagon that helps and supports survivors of domestic abuse. She's realised that what happened to her could have happened to anyone. Lorena proudly states that she is not a celebrity, but she is an advocate. And she knows that everyone laughs at her, but she repeatedly says that she will take it if it means that she can help victims of domestic abuse in all the forms it comes in. And this is the thing. Obviously, once again, people can make up their own mind

about, you know, how they want to interpret this particular case. But a man who decides to go on Howard Stern, get a penis enlargement surgery, and then become Mr. Fucking Franken-Penis hanging out at the Bunny Ranch and doing whatever else he's doing, whipping out his dented Red Bull canned dick, versus Lorena Bobbitt, who was like, I don't want to be famous, even though people are laughing at me. I'm going to start a charity to support victims of domestic abuse. I know who I believe in this scenario. But again, that's up to you to decide.

So Lorena became a US citizen in 1994, and her divorce from John was finalised the following year. But he certainly hasn't left her alone. Over the years, John has sent Lorena a large number of letters and Facebook messages, even though Lorena is now living with her partner David and their teenage daughter. The messages say stuff like, I miss you very much and if there was a choice to have any woman in the world,

it would be you. I love my wife. I love your heart and I love you very much from your cold, insensitive husband. And again, this is just further... She's trying desperately to move on with her life, she's got a new husband, she's got a kid, she's living her life being an advocate,

and this man, the way he continues to harass her and send her these unwanted messages, because make no mistake, it is harassment, when she's explicitly told him, I don't want you to send me these messages, I don't want anything to do with you anymore, again, whose mentality is showing you that they have no boundaries? Whose mentality is showing you that they have no boundaries? Whose mentality is showing you that they're willing to partake in what is predatory behavior? Like, I don't know. I don't see how anyone could believe this man. He doesn't stop with just the letters and the weird emails and Facebook messages. Because apparently, John even sometimes sends Lorena

memes of Joey from Friends. There is nothing worse that you could do to me in the entire world than send me memes from Friends. Maybe this will be a very unpopular opinion. I can't fucking stand that show. And I certainly can't stand memes from that show. No thanks. Isn't it the worst thing when you're on Hinge and you'll see a guy and you're like oh he's quite cute like he's quite interesting and then you scroll down

and like one of his like quotes will be like a fucking friend's quote. I'm like oh why did you make me have to put you in the bin now because that's where you're going. John has also said in interviews that if the whole incident hadn't happened, he and Lorena would still be together with children. Lorena doesn't agree and she just thinks that John needs help. And these messages and like sort of the tragedy of his life paints John as this pathetic figure. And you can meet him in the Jordan Peele documentary. But in the 90s, it was kind of the other way around. The case was only seen through the lens of John and his loss, not through Lorena's abused paradigm.

Having said that, the general public tended to side with Lorena, even in the 90s. Her plight was appreciated. She was chasing the American dream and got caught up with the wrong man. But one has to wonder, if this had happened today, whether anti-immigrant sentiment would have swayed the narrative in a different direction. Would a brown lady from Ecuador cutting off the penis of an ex-Marine have played out the same way in a post-Trump America? Probs not. Yeah, I mean, it's just, I don't know anymore. I don't

know who is shouting the loudest in the culture wars that we are currently trapped in. I feel like it swings back and forth. It wouldn't have been pretty. Let's just say that. And I guess we also have to ask, on the other hand, would the hashtag MeToo movement have helped Lorena? I think we can certainly say since that movement began, people are definitely more aware of abuses of power, domestic abuse, sexual abuse, this kind of thing. And maybe women would have been more vocal in their support of Lorena. But had this happened in the social media age, I doubt she would have survived the online abuse.

Lorena hit the headlines at a really crucial time in the States. Clinton was being blown by interns. Thelma and Louise had just come out a few years before. And the only reason the media moved on from Lorena's story was thanks to Tonya Harding. I'm not even going to bother asking whether you've seen Thelma and Louise. I'm just going to go off. It's all right, Tonya. Not good enough. Thelma and Louise came out in 1991. And it's Susan Sarandon and the fucking other one. Basically, the story is, I don't, if you're going to have a go at me for spoilers on a film that came out in 1991,

no, I'm sorry, suck a dick, it's not happening. So, Thelma and Louise. The storyline is that Thelma has this, like, bullshit, horrible husband who, like, he doesn't let her go out on her own, very controlling, la la la. Louise is her, like, cool friend. And they go on this road trip. And they end up at a bar. And Thelma gets raped by this guy in the parking lot. And Louise kills him with a gun.

That is Thelma's gun that she brings with her. And then they drive across America trying to get to Mexico to, like, escape the police. And they stick it to more men on the way, basically. In 1991, it was fucking groundbreaking. I rewatched it the other night and I, like, I bought a Thelma and Louise poster for my flat. It still is a very powerful film of feeling like no one takes women seriously. And yeah, fighting back. Obviously, I'm not advocating shooting people, but I would give it a watch.

It's worth watching. Yeah, for sure. And I think the reason that a film made, you know, almost 30 years ago still resonates is because the themes are still intact, sadly. Yeah. And I haven't watched Thelma and Louise, but I have seen the episode of The Simpsons that recreates the movie.

Okay, that's good enough. I feel like coupled with your little explanation now, I will watch it. I feel like you've sold it to me now. I really want to go watch it. So I will do that. You would, honestly, you would really like like it and also there's another bit speaking of themes being true there's a bit where Thelma and Louise lock a policeman in the boot of his car and they shoot him two air holes and then this black guy comes along on a bike on a bicycle

and he can hear the policeman like shouting inside the car and he's just like nope and just like cycles off would still be funny today that joke would still hold true 30 years later, which is, you know, nuts. Of course. I would just guess that in 30 years time, it will still be as evergreen, unfortunately. But no, I love that kind of film. And absolutely, it's not about advocating people going out and committing random acts of violence against men. My God, that's not the point. It's the reason why, for example, like I love trash horror films. Everybody knows this. And I've like foregone seeing a lot of good films to just indulge my trash film obsession.

And one of my favorite genres, and I know this sounds horrible, I really enjoyed the horror films that are considered, you know, revenge films, like rape revenge films. I do enjoy those. There is a fantastic one I've talked about on Under the Duvet before, which is just called Revenge. It came out a few years ago, shot by a female director. But even things like I Spit on Your Grave, I know it's not everybody's cup of tea, but something very cathartic about watching that woman survive and then kicking the fucking shit

and torturing and killing all of those men. It's not about one individual woman being brutalized in that way and then somehow like a sick perversion and enjoying her torture those men. It's about what it represents, about people being trodden on, women being downtrodden, constantly ignored, abused. She goes to the police, they ignore her. The police get involved in I Spit on Your Grave because they know the men that have done it. And then her overcoming those challenges. And to me, the violence against those men is merely symbolic. It's about fighting the patriarchy, blah, blah, blah, all that, overcoming that through whatever it takes.

Yeah, no, I fully am here for it. I'm going to go watch Thelma and Louise. That's what I'll do this evening. So you've sold it to me. Just like we're talking about fighting back. At the time, women were fighting back in real life. This is in the 90s. They're fighting back on the news and on screen.

Generally, women do commit less violent crimes than men do. We know that. We've been here for four years. We do know that that is the case. But they often receive harsher sentences. As society, we don't see violence as inherently female. And therefore, straying from the feminine is an additional crime it's something that i'd not really thought about before but it is true

that women committing the same crimes as men they will almost always be given a harsher sentence i thought it was the other way around no oh i thought women got less long sentences than men did because we're like well i know that there is like women don't really do as well in prison. Not as well because obviously men don't do. No one does well in prison. But I thought that women received shorter sentences than men. My understanding is that for everything other than violent crimes, that is true. OK.

But violence is more likely to get a woman a longer sentence than a man is interesting there's also this fun this fun thing this is horrible you know when you have like teachers that cross the line and sleep with their students yes yeah when it is a male teacher who sleeps with a female student and you know i shouldn't say sleeps with when it's younger than the age of consent and even though because of the power, it is obviously statutory rape. They get much longer sentences than when the female teacher sleeps with a male student. And apparently all the studies show that the more attractive the female teacher is, the less time she gets in prison.

Ugh. So Lorena is advocating and helping domestic abuse survivors live safer, better lives. John Bobbitt is not doing so hot. His porn career failed and he's been charged with battery and harassment multiple times against multiple different partners, although he's never been convicted. Make of that what you will. He has had his penis made smaller because apparently

ladies would refuse to sleep with him because it was just too massive. This guy is so disgusting. mauler because apparently ladies would refuse to sleep with him because it was just too massive. This guy is so disgusting. In 2014, he broke his neck in a car accident. And since then, he's been occupying himself by searching for fabled hidden treasure in the Rockies. That is not a joke. This is 100% true. So retired art dealer and all-round good time gal, Forrest Fenn. Excellent name. Forrest Fenn, I know, I know. Excellent guy too.

Hid a literal treasure chest worth millions in the Rockies and he only left a poem as a clue and the poem is entitled The Thrill of the Chase. Just like an eccentric old man thing to do, I think. Love it. Over 350,000 people have gone searching for it. And last year, in June 2020, peak Covid town, when there was nothing else to do, it was found.

We don't know who by, but because this person wanted to remain anonymous, we can safely say it was not John Wayne Bobbitt. And John Wayne Bobbitt still spends his time claiming that he didn't batter Lorena, or any of his partners, and all of them were just lying. And he says that Lorena specifically was a stubborn nightmare who only wanted money. Interesting that she's been offered a million dollars for just a photo shoot in Playboy and she said no for a woman who only wanted money. But John Wayne Bobbitt just so happens to say

the exact same thing about all of his exes too. And you have to wonder, who in this scenario, or this series of scenarios, is the common denominator? But still, John Wayne Bobbitt claims that he was just used as a stepping stone by the women who came after Lorena, and that he never hit any of them. In an interview he stated, quote, I'm a marine. I'm trained to protect people, not hurt them. Okay, okay bro. And of course, as we hinted at earlier, Lorena is doing much, much better than John. She's still in Manassas, not seeing why she should leave and give John the last laugh. And her parents have now joined her in the United States.

The most interesting commentary on the Bobbitt debacle we found came from Air Force Amy, who worked at the Bunny Ranch while John Bobbitt worked there as well. Amy said, quote, cut off a million clits in Africa and nobody hears a word. Cut one dick off and the whole fucking country stops. And having spent over a week in the severed penis headspace, I think I share the same train of thought.

There's a common theme running through this story, which is that the emasculation of John Bobbitt is seen as far more important than the fact that he was probably an abusive rapist and a waste of space. Even if those things are true, even the people who accept those things to be true feel that the punishment doesn't fit the crime. We're told time and again in articles, interviews and documentaries

that being a man without a penis is a fate worse than death. The idea of having to sit down to pee like a woman is humiliating. And the Lorena documentary shows footage of John's brothers on the Jenny Jones show. One brother said, if I'd have seen her, I would have killed her. And when he says this, the audience clap. And he continues and says, she did worse than kill him. She took away the thing that means the most to a man. You know, not his family, not his love, not his career.

His literal penis is the thing that means the most to a man, according to John Bobbitt's brother. So you heard it here first. Lorena's life was worth less than a rapist's penis. And in this like talk show, he's got two brothers and they're on stage talking about this and they say like, oh, we went to find her. We went out to find her. And the host is like, oh, like, where were you looking? They were like, we didn't know. We were just going to look and if we'd have found her, we would have killed her. And the audience are like, woo!

Like, how, how is that acceptable? Well, it's because the threat of violence against women is just an accepted part of society. We accept that we will be physically hurt by men and that if we're raped, it's our fault. The ever-present threat of rape, murder, assault is just part of the everyday life and experience of a woman. Whoopi Goldberg has chimed in on this one too, saying the following. Women live with the knowledge that weird shit can happen at any point. You go down a dark alley and whoosh, someone grabs you. Now men actually have to think about this shit too. No one thinks violence against women is worth reporting on. It's just a domestic. But when a man is hurt by a woman, the story feels

different. Lorena goes by her maiden name now, which is Gallo, and she continues her advocacy work. And she said in an interview, my mission in life is to save those who are in abusive situations. If I could help one victim or help one person escape domestic violence, then all that I went through was not in vain. And of course, COVID times are when we should be especially mindful of those in domestically abusive situations. Many are stuck inside with their abusers and no one should have to choose between safety and COVID-19. Some people hail Lorena as an icon, a feminist and a hero. Others think she did more harm to the female cause than good. She gave the men what they wanted. She did what they said all the feminists would do, given half the chance. But what I keep coming back to is the idea of the

female body as an object versus the male penis as an identity. And like the mismatch of those two things is fucked to me. Like, how can they be so differently valued in our society and not examined at all? I know. Now, maybe it's a coincidence, but probably not, that the year after Lorena's trial, Clinton passed the Violence Against Women Act,

essentially acknowledging domestic violence and sexual assault as crimes and not just domestics. My God, the wheels of justice turn slowly when it's about women. Harkin' hell. And this Act has been updated every five years since, adding more provisions for all genders and LGBTQ survivors. Most recently, it was renewed in 2021 and claims to take a holistic approach to addressing the complex realities of survivors' lives and providing $40 million

for a culturally specific services programme focusing on victim autonomy, housing protections and federally assisted housing for survivors. There has also been a restoration of tribal jurisdiction that allows tribes to hold non-native perpetrators for sexual assault, stalking, child abuse, elder abuse, assault against law enforcement officers and trafficking accountable when they commit crimes on native lands. But migrant survivors are not provided for. So, is Lorena a hero? I don't think so

and I don't think she wants to be one either. I think that's the thing is everybody's like oh Lorena's a hero, she's an icon, she's this she had a series of horrendous things happen to her and she did something and then she's tried to just get on with her life. I don't think she's ever wanted to be this icon or be this changemaker apart from through her advocacy work.

And I think people should just let her do that instead of labelling her with things she's never asked to be labelled with. And when it comes to the blame game, like whose fault was it really, who was abusing who, who's really to blame for the most famous castration in American history? Is it castration if it's just the penis or the balls to have to be involved too? I would have thought you've got to take it all. You've got to take the whole shebang, yeah.

Pillar and stones. It all comes down to whose story you believe. And maybe it is a bit of both. So was John being battered by Lorena? Or was John raping Lorena? You have to decide for yourself. Or maybe we can all just come to the conclusion that finger pointing is totally useless and we should be more concerned with the discourse of women being more than wives and abuse being more than just a domestic.

There you have it. Lorena Bobbitt. Frank and penis. Frank and penis. Yeah. Go and watch the documentary. It's well done. I mean, obviously it Go and watch the documentary. It's well done. I mean, obviously it's Jordan Peele. It's just an interesting case. People feel very strongly either way. And we're not implying that domestic abuse is a women-only problem, but it is very much a majority women problem. So let women have the space on this one, I think.

And I don't know, follow us on social media. Order yourself a book. I'm pretty sure there are lives tickets still to go, certainly in London. So get your hands on those. The links will be in the episode description.

And you can come and join us over on Patreon, where we will be doing Under the Duvet and talking about other things. Not penises, I don't think. But who knows? I mean, they do crop up

every now and again in Under the Duvet. We also do the In the News segment, where we talk about the most recent cases that have been happening. This month, we've got one that is quite an interesting case on a Canadian mannequin that for once wasn't a mannequin, but people thought it. No, wait, they thought it was a mannequin, but it was actually a body and they threw it in the bin. Anyway, you've got to come listen to it. I can't remember. We also we also of course have our monthly bonus patreon episodes that we put out for all ten dollar and up patrons last month we did it on the slender man stabbings this month we're actually

taking a bit of a different route i'm going to be talking about flat earth theory oh yeah and why the fuck flat earthers believe what they believe so come hang out with us if you want to listen to all that good stuff yeah and here are some people who were already hang out with us if you want to listen to all that good stuff. Yeah. And here are some people who are already hanging out with us. Jessica Swanson, Alexandra Tyson, Jen, Elizabeth Wagner, Michelle Vega, Hannah Garcia, Kristen Eggleston, Leah Hanna, Sherry Drescher, Logan, Mish Barbara Ann, Laura Dalton, Kelsey, Danielle Robichaux,

Rosie, Savannah Sessions, Hilary Ann Legidal, Megan Ryan, Thank you. Ketzal Suranio I'm sorry guys I thought I was doing so well recently Aubrey Collette Rebecca Duff Jacqueline Owen Hayley Terwilliger Stacey Emily Hardy Ella Porter Lucy Gemmel

Kelly Cohen Elizabeth Eyre Lucy Kitty McIntyre Laura Marie Brianna Brianna Brianna

yep Atkins Charlotte Q Sydney Stone Kira Kathleen Adrian Kaz Kazup, Lois, Lois, yes, Wigston, Catherine Qualman, Amy McDonald, Catherine Pope, Elliot Marr, and Michelle. Thank you guys so much. Thank you ever so much.

We'll see you next time for something else. Goodbye. Bye. And in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mum's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery Plus. In season two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti.

It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance, but it instantly moved me, and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider

some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan, we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. He was hip-hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune, and the music industry. The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk of Fame, Sean Diddy Cone. Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about.

Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party, so. Yeah, that's what's up. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment, charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution. I was f***ed up. I hit rock bottom. But I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry. Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real. From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is the rise and

fall of Diddy. Listen to the rise and fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery Plus.