RedHanded - Episode 225 - Casey Anthony: Web of Lies - Part 1

Episode Date: December 9, 2021

When 22-year-old Casey Anthony was arrested on 16 July 2008, her two-year-old daughter Caylee hadn't been seen for over a month. Casey's history of lying and manipulation, as well as her strangely distant attitude towards her missing child, was setting off all kinds of alarm bells... and the smell of death coming from the boot of her car didn't help either. Prepare for bizarre phone calls, fascinating police interviews, and generally some of the strangest behaviour we've ever witnessed, as we cover one of the most infamous true-crime cases of all time. Sources: redhandedpodcast.com  See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Red Handed early and ad-free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. Follow Hollywood and Crime, The Cotton Club Murder on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, everyone.

Very quick announcement before we get on with today's episode. Have you considered how great it would be to listen to this episode, and in fact, every episode of Red Handed, ad-free, and how great it would be for just $5 a month to get that, plus tons of extra bonus content from me and Hannah? Well, if that sounds like something you'd like,

then you will be very excited to hear that for the next two days, we will be running an exclusive Red Handed Patreon annual subscription flash sale. So if you head on over to patreon.com slash redhanded right now and sign up for an annual subscription of any tier, you get 16% off that equals two months of free red-handed patreon ship if that sounds like something you're

interested in head on over to patreon.com slash red-handed right now for all of the information and not only do you get access to all future bonus content and ad free red-handed you also get access to the full back catalogue of content that is already up on Patreon. What a treat! Could be the perfect present for you or for a beloved spooky bitch in your life. Now, on with the show. I'm Saruti. And I am Hannah. And welcome to Red Handed, where I have quite a lot of some sort of fruit roll-up situation stuck in my teeth. There is literally no time where it is appropriate to tell people what's inside your mouth. I'm going to.

Unless it's the dentist. I'm going to. I'm very hungry, and I thought, what I'll do, quick energy, I'll stuff this fruit wind-up or whatever it is in my mouth. Now there's quite a lot of gummy fruit just jamming up my teeth for an audio piece of content is exactly what you want especially with a plosive mouth it's a good thing i've got this pop filter so anyway hello everyone welcome it's the penultimate episode of 2021 oh my god over here at red. Oh my god. Over here at Red Handed. Oh my god indeed. And it's a two-parter so it's basically the last episode. Kind of. Yeah. Mega last episode because it's a two-parter. It is a two-parter. What a year. What a year we have had. Ups, downs, billboards, bestsellers, shows, sold out

tours. All thanks to you guys. All thanks to you guys. Fucking to you guys like i don't know i still have to pinch myself that we are where we are i like talk to my friends or go on these fucking terrible days what do you do and i'm like you literally won't believe me no no exactly i get to have the best job ever yes and we're so incredibly lucky and thankful to be where we are and it is you know 100% down to you so as a reward what we generally do at Christmas as a present apart from our Patreon Christmas party which we're having this year which if you're not a patron you're not invited what we do at Christmas is we give you a case that you ask for all the time but on our regular programming we have just been like no it's been done so many times.

Like, what can we possibly bring to it? Well, my friends, last year we did JonBenet Ramsey. And this year, it's Casey Anthony. Yeah, yeah. We thought it would be really fun to wrap up 2021 with a mind-meltingly infuriating case.

That's how I would describe it. I think that's a fair assessment no one tells a word of the truth so you just have to i mean make up your own minds as usual as you know we are not here to tell you what to think but you'll be thinking a lot of things you'll be forming a lot of thoughts and then all of those thoughts will be blown to smithereens by the next bit of the episode because none of it makes sense. No, it doesn't. So everyone paying attention? Good. Let's get started. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas and a happy new year. We often talk about the idea that people don't always react in the quote-unquote right way when

it comes to grief and how it can be deeply unfair to judge them on this, especially when they're in a high-stress situation. But, in my opinion, this isn't one of those cases. Today, as we've already said, we're talking about one of the most well-known true crime stories out there. It's also one of the weirdest. Filled with bizarre lies, things that make absolutely no sense whatsoever, and a cast of characters so odd that if you can get through the next two episodes without screaming, well done. I won't. I did not during the research. Hannah had to sit next to me and I'm sure she saw a lot of head shaking and muttering. A lot of sighing. And so we're sitting in a glass box all day, every day together now, which honestly, I couldn't be more grateful. It's so nice to not be on my own. But the past two weeks have just been silence yes furious typing and silence yeah with the occasional exasperated head shake from me so this is when it begins on the 15th of july

2008 at 8 0 9 p.m the or Orlando Sheriff's Department received the following call. Hello? Hi, I drove to the police department here on Pershing, but you guys are closed. I need to bring someone into the police department. Can you tell me where I can, the closest one I can come into? What are you trying to accomplish by bringing them to the station? I have a 22-year-old person that has Grand Theft sitting in my auto with me. So the 22-year-old person stole something?

Yes. Is this a relative? Yes. Where did they steal it from? My car and also money. Okay. Is this your son? Daughter. Okay. So your daughter stole money from your car?

No, my car was stolen. We retrieved it today. We found out where it was at. We retrieved it. I've got that, and I've got affidavit for my banking account. I want to bring her in. I want to press charges. Okay, where did all of this happen?

So, the voice you just heard was that of a woman named Cindy Anthony, mother of Casey Anthony, the daughter that she wants to press charges against. It's hard not to feel like when you're listening to that call that it is the voice of a mother being like, I've had enough. I'm going, this time I'm calling the police. Yes, and I know parents who have done that especially about stolen cars. I'm not saying it's something any parent takes lightly but sometimes I mean I've witnessed that path be taken. However the order in which she gives the information is very bizarre. Oh yeah I

don't know if it's a bad connection you can obviously hear it's not the clearest call. I don't know if she can't hear what the guy's saying but she doesn't answer the questions in a very no way no she's just like i want to bring someone into your facility and he's like okay like why would you not say my daughter's stolen my car and i need to press charges that would have made the whole thing a lot quicker but it's almost like she doesn't want to give the game away somehow it's almost like she doesn't really want to do it she's just doing it to scare casey yeah i think she's i mean it's kind of like she doesn't really want to do it. She's just doing it to scare Casey. Yeah, I think she's, I mean, it's kind of like, I don't really know what she wanted it to achieve. But it's kind of like she's giving these like breadcrumb bits of information.

I think it's exactly that. I think it's like, I don't actually want to call the police on her because she's my daughter. But I'm doing it to be like, are you listening? Are you listening to this Casey? I'm calling the police right I've had enough of this right so right this man that she calls at the sheriff's department then tells Cindy that she's come through to the wrong number so he has to transfer her I'm going to play the part when he's transferring her just because I want everyone to hear what Cindy says to Casey while the transfer okay happening. Okay, so Casey's physically there. Casey's physically there.

That's what I'm saying. It's like she's looking at her and being like, okay, okay. Are you fucking listening? I'm calling the police. I've had enough of this. Right. So everybody listen to this next part. So my next thing will be down the trout thing and we'll have a court order together.

If that's what you want to play, we'll do it. And you'll never. Well, then you have. No, i'm not giving you another day i've given you a month oh yeah i think that is a very important part it may not seem obvious right now exactly what's going on especially if you don't know this case also full disclaimer hannah's obviously read the script that has been written by me i don't know why i said Also, full disclaimer, Hannah's obviously read the script that has been written by me. I don't know why I said it so cryptically, but she hasn't heard the calls.

No. Or listened to the interviews that we are going to be playing throughout these two episodes. I think I might need to be sent to spooky bitch jail because I actually don't know this case particularly well. But I think you and I are both not particularly interested in these huge well-known cases often.

Why I say that is because I'm really interested to see your reaction as somebody who sees these interviews and hears these calls for the first time okay as some of our listeners might be so i think if she seems shocked by it it's because she is yeah yeah no i'm not just doing an excellent acting job i've heard it all 50 million times by now so yeah that part of the call when cindy says just in case you didn't catch it cindy says next i'll be going to child thing i guess she means child protective services and she says i'll get a court order to get her i've given you a month and casey says give me one more day everybody

remember that this is when cindy is now on the phone again to 9- 911, what is the address? What's happening? I have someone here that I need to be arrested in my home. They're there right now? I have a possible missing child. I have a three-year-old that's been missing for a month. A three-year-old? Yeah. Have you reported that?

I'm trying to do that now, ma'am. Okay, what did the person do that you need arrested? My daughter. For what? For stealing an auto and stealing money. I already spoke with someone. They said they would patch me through the Orlando Sheriff's Department, have a deputy here. I was in the car.

I was going to drive her to the police station, and no one's open open they said they would bring a deputy to my home when I got home to call them so she stole your vehicle yeah when did she do that on the 30th I just got it back from the impound I'd like to speak to an officer can you have someone come out to my house okay okay I Okay, I've got to ask you these questions so I can put them in the call, okay? Okay. Okay. So now, obviously, you can hear there that Cindy says very clearly that there is a three-year-old, a possibly missing three-year-old, who's been gone possibly for a month.

Right. Right. Okay. Things are starting to get weird. But you will notice, and I think this is important to notice that on this call, she seems calm. She seems very calm about the situation. She's not frantic. She hasn't seen her granddaughter in over a month, but she seems calm. Stern, I would say, but I think you're absolutely right. I think it's very much the tone of the,

like, I'm not taking this from you anymore. You're pushing me to this point. And it's important to say that the next call I'm about to play you is the third 911 call that Cindy Anthony makes that day. About an hour has passed between the previous call you just heard and this one. 911, what's your emergency? I called a little bit ago. The deputy sheriff's saying I found out my granddaughter has been taken. She has been missing for a month.

Her mother finally admitted that she's been missing. Okay, what is the address that you're calling from? We're talking about a 3-year-old little girl. My daughter finally admitted that the baby's in store. I need to find her. Your daughter admitted that the baby's in the store. I need to find her. Your daughter admitted that the baby is where? That the babysitter took her a month ago. That my daughter's been looking for.

I told you my daughter was missing for a month. I just found her today, but I can't find my granddaughter. She just admitted to me that she's been trying to find her herself. There's something wrong. I found my daughter's car today and it smells like there's been a dead body in the damn car. Okay, what is the three-year-old's name? Kaylee, C-A-Y-L-E-E, Anthony. Kaylee Anthony? Yes. Okay, is she white, black, or Hispanic? She's white. How long has she been missing for? I have not seen her since the 7th of June.

What is her date of birth? Um, 8...8, 9, 2000...oh, God, she's 3...she's 2005. So it's Karen, isn't it? Karen, isn't it? Karen, isn't it? Karen just said they took her a month ago. She's been missing for a month. Okay, I just can't, I need, I understand. Can you just, can you calm down for me for just a minute?

I need to know what's going on, okay? I'm going to try and stop. I'm going to try and stop... Is your daughter there? Is your daughter there? Can I speak with her? Do you mind if I speak with her? Thank you. I called them two hours ago.

They haven't gotten here. And she finally admitted to me that he took her a month ago. Ma'am. Ma'am. They want to talk to you. Answer the question. Hello. Hello. Yes.

Hi. Can you tell me what's going on a little bit? I'm sorry? Can you tell me a little bit what's going on? My daughter's been missing for the last 31 days. And you know who has her? I know who has her. I've tried to contact her. I actually received a phone call today now from a number that is no longer in service. I did get to speak to my daughter for about a moment, about a minute. Okay okay did you guys call and report a vehicle stolen um

yes my mom did okay okay so there's been a vehicle stolen too no this was my vehicle what vehicle was stolen um it's a 98 pontiac sunfire okay i have deputies on the way to you right now for that but now you're now you're three old. Your three old daughter is missing. Kaylee Anthony. Yes. White female. Yes, white female. Three years old. Eight, nine, 2005. Her date of birth. Yes. And you lost all her a month ago. 31 days. From 31 days. Who has her? Do you have a name? Her name is Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez. Who is that? Babysitter? She's been my nanny for about a year and a half, almost two years. Why are you calling now? Why didn't you call 31 days ago? I've been looking for her and have gone through other resources to try to find her, which is stupid.

Okay. Can you give me the name of the nanny again? Like, spell it out for me? Zenaida, Z-E-N-A-I-D-A. Last name? Fernandez. Fernandez? Hyphen Gonzalez.

I think the officers are here. The officers are there? Yes. Okay, hold on a second. Don't hang up on me yet. I need you to... Okay. Yeah, you can obviously tell that things have escalated quite a lot. Things have escalated, yeah. I think... I need to... Okay. Yeah.

You can obviously tell that things have escalated quite a lot. Things have escalated, yeah. I think... But I think if I had to be in a room with Casey Anthony for 40 minutes, I would escalate also. It's so bizarre. Like, I just can't even get my head... Like, Cindy's obviously, as you heard, she's...

I do think she sounds genuinely upset. Oh, absolutely. I think that's the biggest shift between that hour, between the last call and this call. You can tell, I think in the last call, I think she thinks that Kayleigh is just somewhere. Kayleigh's with a friend. Kayleigh's with a neighbor. She's just, you know, Casey and Kayleigh have been missing for a month. Or not missing.

They thought they were somewhere else. We'll go on to talk about that. So I think that Cindy genuinely just thinks Kaylee's fine and she's somewhere else in that 40 minutes to an hour is when she realizes that casey doesn't know where kaylee is yeah i think it's also a really important thing to stick a pin in at this point is that on this call casey says that she has spoken to her daughter who has been missing for 30 days conveniently the number on which she spoke to her daughter the day this 911 call is being made is now out of service yeah also just in case it wasn't clear in the call cindy has to force casey anthony onto the phone

oh yeah she doesn't want to do it and she says when cindy says it's the sheriff's department they want to talk to you casey says i don't have anything to say which when your daughter has been missing for 30 days and you are admitting that you haven't seen her in that time i think i'd have quite a lot of things to say you'd think wouldn't you i also think the 911 operator is doing a good job of like being investigative, which they don't always do. Yeah, because this already makes no sense. And I think, yeah, absolutely. Props to that 911 operator. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery Show American Scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history.

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unexplained search for haunted Canada on Apple podcast, Spotify, Amazon music, or wherever you find your favourite podcasts. So when the officers get there, they were met with absolute chaos. Cindy and her daughter Casey were screaming at each other. Cindy told the police that her three-year-old granddaughter was missing and had been so for a month. So it's an important point to make. The officers haven't heard any of this because they didn't hear the most recent call that we just played you. So they're very, very confused about why these two women are shouting about a child and quite so upset about a car that has been salvaged.

They thought they were there to deal with the domestic dispute about a stolen car and some money. But now there is suddenly a toddler up in the mix that no one has seen for 31 days. So the only thing they can possibly have been thinking is what in the cinnamon toast fuck is going on. I've stolen that from our very big fan at Angry Black Lady on Twitter. Well, there you go. And Dwayne The Rock Johnson has liked the tweet. You know, we're in good company. Maybe he'll like this. So when the police start to try and figure out what the fuck is going on, this is the story that they get. According to Cindy and her husband, George, who is Casey's dad, on the 7th of June, 2008, so about six weeks before

this scenario is unfolding, Casey had told them, because she lives with them, Casey had told them that she was going out of town for work to Jacksonville, which is about 140 miles away from where the family lived in Orlando. And she told them that she was going to be taking her three-year-old daughter, Kaylee, with her. For the next six weeks the Anthonys didn't see either Casey or Kaylee. They spoke to Casey on the phone a few times but whenever they called and as grandparents would do when they asked to speak to their granddaughter Kaylee was always asleep or otherwise engaged so they never spoke to Kaylee during that time. Then on the 15th of July the Anthonys said that they got a call from an impound lot telling them that a car registered to them, so that's the white 98 Pontiac Sunfire,

had been found abandoned by a check-cashing place in Orlando. Obviously, when they hear this, they're baffled and panicked because that was the car that Casey had taken to go to Jacksonville. Why was it in Orlando after six weeks and why had it been abandoned? They went to pick up the car from the impound lot and were shocked by the state it was in. The car absolutely stunk. This was a stench that Cindy Anthony described in her 911 call as smelling like, quote, a dead body. After they got the car back, they managed to track down Casey, who wasn't in Jacksonville at all. She was still very much in Orlando at her boyfriend Tony Lazaro's house. The Anthonys

drove straight there and found Casey smoking weed and seemingly having a great time. They dragged her home and that's when Cindy made the first 911 call. And as we said at the top of the show, this call is really trying to punish Casey. If you listen to it, Cindy is clearly very calm, stern, and she's being a disciplinarian to tell Casey that enough is finally enough. You can feel in that call that Cindy really thinks that Kayleigh's fine, just with a babysitter or a friend or whatever. But in the hours between the first and the third call, as Cindy says on the recording,

Casey finally admitted that the nanny, who's unfortunately called Zanny, had taken Kayleigh and wouldn't give her back and that she'd been missing for 31 days. So when officers at the house questioned Casey, she told them that she had dropped Kaylee off at her nanny's house on the 9th of June 2008. And then when she'd gone to get Kaylee that evening, as she did every single day, the nanny, a woman, as she says in the 911 call, is called Zenaida Fernandez-Gandez Gonzalez, or Zanny for short,

had refused to give Kaylee back. Casey then said that she tried to call Zanny again and again, but the phone had been disconnected. So Casey said that she then went and searched all the parks and the usual kind of hangouts that she knew Zanny the nanny took Kaylee to, but there was no sign of them. According to Casey, she was now absolutely terrified, but needed time to think. And she said she knew she couldn't go home because she was scared of what her parents would say. So she went to her boyfriend's and didn't call the police. She said she didn't call the police because she was worried if she did, that Zannie would have hurt Kaylee. Interesting point, I think, to note here. She told her parents she was going to Jacksonville.

She never went to Jacksonville, obviously. As we'll go on to see, that's all a big lie. So saying that she didn't go home that night because she was worried of what her parents would say, she had already planned to be away from them for a month. I think that's worth pointing out. I don't know. Pre-meditation is a word that will get thrown around a lot in next week's episode.

The police, just like you and just like me, just like us together, could hardly believe what they were hearing. Parents simply just do not wait for a month before reporting their child missing. So they were, of course, massively suspicious of Miss Casey Anthony. And they actually charged her at this point with child neglect and took her in for official questioning. At the station, Casey stuck to the nanny story. And here is a clip from that first police interview. The date right now is July 16th, 2008. The time right now is 0411 hours.

I'm Detective Mellish with the Orange County Sheriff's Office I am with Casey Anthony is that correct yes Casey you understand this is being recorded yes you have any objection to that no Casey I got called here in reference to a missing child you took Casey to a babysitter's house yes and who was this babysitter her name is Zenaida Fernandez Gonzalez how long had you known Zenaida? Almost four years. It'll be four years Christmas this year. And where did you meet her? Who did you meet her through? A mutual friend. His name is Jeffrey Michael Hopkins.

I met him at Nickelodeon at Universal, and I met her through him. She was his son's nanny at the time. Does Jeffrey still work at Universal? No, he does not. How long has it been since he left? About nine, ten months, give or take. He moved up to North Carolina for a short time and moved down to Jacksonville within the last three months. When was the last time you spoke with him? About a week and a half ago. Do you know a telephone number for him?

I can find a number for him. I don't know a number offhand. No, I do not. So you met Zenaida through Jeffrey Hopkins? I did, yes. And his son, Zach Hopkins, I guess, Zenaida used to watch over Zach? Yes. And when did she start watching over your child? It's been within the last year and a half, two years that she started watching Kaylee. How would you normally drop off? How would you normally do the exchange with your child?

Would you drop the child off? Would she meet you somewhere? I would usually drop her off for a few months. We would go over to Jeff's house. He lived over in Avalon Park. And you would go to Jeff's house for? To drop off Kaylee. That's where Zenaida would go to watch both of the kids. Okay. It was in a nice centralized area. He had a decent-sized house. It was good room for the two of them. Go back to your statement. You dropped off Kaylee June 9th and walked me through. You dropped her off to go to work?

Mm-hmm. Okay. Get off of work and go from there. I got off of work, left Universal, driving back to pick up Kaylee like a normal day, and I show up to the apartment, knock on the door, nobody answers. So I call Zenaida's cell phone, and it's out of service. I didn't really want to come home.

I wasn't sure what I'd say about not knowing where Kaylee was. Still hoping that I would get a call or, you know, find out that Kaylee was coming back so that I could go get her. And I ended up going to my boyfriend Anthony's house, who lives in Sutton Place. Did you talk to Anthony about what happened with Kaylee? No, I did not. Did you talk to anyone about Kaylee, about your incident with Kaylee? Outside of a couple people, a couple mutual friends. Who did you talk to about it?

I talked to Jeff, Jeffrey Hopkins. I talked to Juliette Lewis. She's one of my coworkers at Universal. She works, you still work at Universal? Yes. What do you do at Universal? I'm an event coordinator. Okay, what is Juliette, what position is she, where is she working?

She's also an event coordinator. We work in the same department. Do you have a number for Juliet? Offhand, I can't think of one. Is she in your SIM card? No, she's not. Some of the more recent numbers, her number just changed because she just moved back up north. She, within the last two months, has finished moving up to New York. She's still losing her apartment. So Juliet doesn't work at the Universal anymore? No, she does not. What's the reason, I asked you this before and I'll ask you just for the record, what's the reason you didn't call the police before? I think part of me was naive enough to think that I could handle this myself, which obviously I couldn't. And I was scared that something would happen to her if I did notify the authorities or got the media involved. Just fear of the unknown, fear of the potential of Kaylee getting hurt, of not seeing my daughter again.

I asked you this at the onset and asked you before we went on tape, and I'll ask you again just to make sure we're clear. Is there anything about this story that you're telling me that is untrue, or is there anything that you want to change or divert from what you've already told me? No, sir. Did you cause any injury to your child, Kaylee? No, sir. Did you hurt Kaylee or leave her somewhere, and you're worried that if we find that out, that people are going to look at you the wrong way? No, sir. Did you hurt Kaylee or leave her somewhere, and you're worried that if we find that out, that people are going to look at you the wrong way?

No, sir. And you're telling me that Zenaida took your child without your permission and hasn't returned her? She's the last person that I've seen with my daughter, yes. Is she Puerto Rican? Is she Dominican? Is she white? She's mixed. She's black and Puerto Rican. Is there any underlying cause to why Zenaida would have taken your child? Nothing that... She ever make any statements to you about...

Only how much she loves Kaylee and how great of a kid she is. And when you talk to Jeffrey afterwards, I'm assuming that Jeffrey's child is still with him. His child is still with him. You said Zenaida had family up in New England, up in New York or something? Yes, she has family down south. Her mother, her sister, her brother's in New York. She's originally from New York. Pretty much grew up there, moved down here, went to the University of Florida.

I mean, I don't think she knows the definition of mutual friends. Mutual between who? You and Kaylee? You and the nanny? The thing is, what she's saying makes no sense. But how calmly she delivers it. And just straight off the bat. And no hesitation. So effortless. And also, because of the way she delivers it, outside of the context that nothing makes sense it sounds so believable yeah it's not until you

really break down what she actually says and you're like wait a minute if you didn't know the case no if she was saying something else you would just be her delivery everything makes it seem completely believable it's remarkable i've never seen anything like it she truly is in a league of her own obviously spoiler she's fucking lying her arse off. Yeah, like when he's like, is there anything about it that's untrue? He should have just said, is there anything about what you just told me that is true?

Yeah. Because the answer is a big fat no. No. The only thing that is correct is that her name is Casey Anthony. So the police now need to find these people. They needed someone who could corroborate Casey's story, establish a clear series of events

and of course help them to find Kaylee. At first Casey took the investigators from random address to random address, seeming confused and surprised when it turned out that the people she claimed lived there didn't. Yeah she's basically like oh no one I know that you could easily find, like my boyfriend or my parents or anybody else who's real. I didn't tell any of them. Didn't tell any of them, even though I went straight to my boyfriend's house after I realised that Kayleigh was missing. I told these other people, like Geoffrey Hopkins and Juliette Lewis, that you now need to go find. She'd even sent the police to an address claiming that it was the home of Zanny the nanny. But when they got there, the flat was completely empty.

And obviously, there are a lot of things about Casey Anthony that don't exactly make her mum of the year. But if I was entrusting someone with my child, I think I would quite like to know their address, and I would like to know that they actually lived there, and I would like to know that they have a phone that is connected. Oh yeah, I mean, the problem is that Casey says, this is definitely Zanny's apartment, lived there and i would like to know that they have a phone that is connected oh yeah i mean the problem is that casey says this is definitely zanny's apartment and she's like yeah i dropped her off here all the time but it's like right no you didn't because she's not here she's not here

and also and actually the flat's completely fucking empty it's not even that zanny the nanny may have lived there and may have vacated. The owners of the building said that absolutely no one ever, not never, had lived in the building called Zenaida. So she was never there. Zanny the nanny never, ever lived there. No one named Zenaida lived there. No one had lived there for months. Yeah, so she's literally, just like you heard in the call,

the rate and consistency and confidence that she comes up with these complete fabrications like she's literally just spitting addresses off the top of her head oh yeah yeah even when the police confront her with what for other people would be irrefutable evidence for example she says this is zanny the nanny's house this is zanny the nanny's apartment they go there fucking apartment's empty and she says well no this is definitely where i used to bring Kayleigh. And the police go speak to the building apartment. They're like, no one's lived here.

They even pull the CCTV and said, for the day you said you dropped her off here, you're not on the CCTV. At the times you said you were dropping her off. In fact, you weren't here at all that day. And she's like, no, I was definitely here. And it's just like, what do you do with that? You can't do that much with that, be honest that's her tactic so the police were obviously growing incredibly frustrated they told casey to take them to universal studios because remember she's saying

juliet lewis plus another colleague they were the ones that she had told and jeffrey hopkins of course so they're like, take us to Universal and let's talk to the people that you apparently told contemporaneously about Kaylee's disappearance. So they all go to the offices together. And once they get there, Casey walks straight up to a security guard and tells the security guard that she needs to take the police in to speak to Juliette Lewis.

She also wheels off a bunch of other names. The security guard was totally confused. He couldn't see any of these names on the employee database and he kept telling Casey that she wasn't even listed as an employee. But Casey didn't back down and she kept telling the man to call her supervisor. She even gave a name and extension number for her boss. So this is like causing quite a scene. This attracts the attention of her manager. The manager is equally confused by the lack of like names on the employee database. But I think he's just like kind of keen to help because Casey's screaming about the fact that a child is missing.

And there are three senior detectives standing there. So this manager tells the security guard to just let Casey and the officers in. For the next 25 minutes, Casey walks these three detectives around the building. And while she's doing so, she's even like waving at people saying hi. Eventually, she heads down a corridor that ends in like a dead end. At this point, and this is what the detective said happened, she put her hands in her back pockets, sighed, laughed, turned back to look at them, and said that she didn't actually work there after all. To be fair to Casey, which is, I promise I will never say that again, the one place where you can wave at people you don't know and they will wave back is Universal Studios. Maybe even Disneyland. Like, the people who work there will wave at fucking anyone. So she and they will wave back is universal studios maybe even disneyland like the people who work there will wave at fucking anyone so she's got that she's smart

but she's in the corporate offices as well i mean not i mean fine whatever they'll wave back they'll not wave back the fucking gall on this woman yeah yeah the audacity my god can you imagine i think this is one of the things that is the most shocking about this case. And I think one of the reasons that people are so obsessed. People lie all the time. It's not the lies that's shocking. It is Casey Anthony's ability to withstand that level of pressure. Yeah.

The extent to which she can push a lie. It's like, and we'll say this again because it comes up so many times she will take it to the absolute end she will take a lie to the absolute end until she knows she can't lie anymore and then she'll be like okay fine you got me it's quite she could be a master of industry like she could rise to the top in quite literally any profession she needs to be a spy yeah nerves of fucking steel it's truly remarkable so casey shrugs it off she admits she's never worked there but the thing is the detectives who were accompanying her through her little tour of the universal studios corporate offices already knew that when casey wasn't able to give them the phone numbers or addresses for zanny jeffrey juliet or

all the other co-workers that she made up and told about Kaylee's disappearance. The detectives had done good detecting and had gone to Universal Studios themselves before they went there with Casey to see what they could find out. And what they found out was pretty bizarre. Casey hadn't worked at Universal Studios two whole years. Jeffrey Hopkins hadn't worked there for six years and no one named Juliette Lewis had ever worked there at all. And when Casey had worked there, she hadn't been an event coordinator like she'd been telling everyone, she worked on the photo

kiosk at the Incredible Hulk ride. And I think this is also the thing we have to say of like, she told her parents she was going away for work to Jacksonville for six weeks she wasn't because she didn't have a job at that point so again you have to ask why is it during a time when she already planned to be away from her parents and be away from that house for six weeks it's during that time that Kaylee goes missing yeah and it's also I think it bears repeating the speech he comes up with the name julia lewis completely confident and no one at universal studios has worked there by that name which is just astonishing two things a word of advice ladies if a man on hinge says he is an event coordinator he's a barman i learned that one the hard way no shade on barman just say what you are secondly how does someone who works on a kiosk

in america where minimum wage is extremely low afford a private nanny do they not have play groups is there not group situations for the babies well yeah but that's the thing she didn't have a private nanny and she told everyone she was an event coordinator not someone working on a photo kiosk there is no nanny there is no nanny okay right i'm with you so the answer is she can't afford it and she didn't have one and this is the thing again talking about the ability to which casey anthony is able to carry out a light and the amount of i don't even know what the word is like the extent to which she's able to go to the pressure she's able to endure because remember she lives with her parents

and she hasn't worked at Universal Studios for two years, but they didn't know she was unemployed. That means that Casey Anthony was getting up every morning, getting dressed, getting Kaylee dressed, taking them both off somewhere, telling her parents she was leaving Kaylee with the nanny, but there is no nanny. So where were her and Kaylee spending all day every day

and then she'd come home in the evening like i've been at work she did that for two years without a job wow this is what i'm saying it's madness there was someone i used to work with when i worked in bars who for a good six months stint was sleeping in the bar and no one found out wow like through a very unfortunate series of events they'd ended up without somewhere to live yeah and they would just because chefs get in fucking early they'd sleep there leave before the chefs got there walk around town for a couple of hours and then come back this is the thing it's so tragic and that is obviously a different situation because it's somebody trying to fucking get by and manage a horrible situation this situation with casey

she could have gone and tried to get another job yeah yeah she situation this situation with casey she could have gone and tried to get another job yeah yeah she doesn't she does we know she's unemployed as we'll go on to talk about i think it's just like i was quite close to that person at the time that was happening and i had absolutely no idea it's always quite shocking when you manage to when you see something like that i think yeah and i think again you know in that situation it's like somebody trying not to share what is obviously a horrible situation here with Casey Anthony. Her motivations for lying are complex. He was hip hop's biggest mogul, the man who redefined fame, fortune and the music industry.

The first male rapper to be honored on the Hollywood Walk Cafe, Sean Diddy Combs. Diddy built an empire and lived a life most people only dream about. Everybody know ain't no party like a Diddy party, so. Yeah, that's what's up. But just as quickly as his empire rose, it came crashing down. Today I'm announcing the unsealing of a three-count indictment, charging Sean Combs with racketeering conspiracy, sex trafficking, interstate transportation for prostitution. I was f***ed up. I hit rock bottom, but I made no excuses. I'm disgusted. I'm so sorry.

Until you're wearing an orange jumpsuit, it's not real. Now it's real. From his meteoric rise to his shocking fall from grace, from law and crime, this is The Rise and Fall of Diddy. Listen to The Rise and Fall of Diddy exclusively with Wondery+. I'm Jake Warren, and in our first season of Finding, I set out on a very personal quest to find the woman who saved my mom's life. You can listen to Finding Natasha right now exclusively on Wondery+. In season

two, I found myself caught up in a new journey to help someone I've never even met. But a couple of years ago, I came across a social media post by a person named Loti. It read in part, Three years ago today that I attempted to jump off this bridge, but this wasn't my time to go. A gentleman named Andy saved my life. I still haven't found him. This is a story that I came across purely by chance,

but it instantly moved me and it's taken me to a place where I've had to consider some deeper issues around mental health. This is season two of Finding, and this time, if all goes to plan,

we'll be finding Andy. You can listen to Finding Andy and Finding Natasha exclusively and ad-free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. So most of it's made up, but the police did actually manage to track down this Jeffrey Hopkins character, who apparently didn't even know anyone named Zenaida Fernandez-Gonzalez, let alone have a nanny by that name that he had then introduced to Casey Anthony.

But it gets even better than that, because guess what? Jeffrey Hopkins, of working at Universal Studios six years ago fame, didn't even have any fucking kids. And as you will have heard in the interview, she's like, yeah, she used to watch Jeff's kid, Zachary. He he hasn't got a fucking kids she's just making this all up on the spot i kind of wish i could do that she'd be great at improv mate she's there you go on snl the casey anthony improv group

can you think of anything worse i can't so yeah the police discover that jeffrey hopkins hasn't worked at universal studios for six years. He doesn't know Zenaida Gonzalez and he doesn't have any children, let alone a little boy named Zachary. And when they talk to Jeffrey, he told the police that he hadn't spoken to Casey Anthony in years. But Casey had told the police that she'd spoken to him just a week and a half before she was being interviewed. Once again, lies all over the place. And also, the police weren't able to find anyone named Juliette Lewis, who worked at Universal or otherwise, connected to Casey Anthony.

Detectives, by this point, were beyond confused. Why was she lying? What the hell was going on? And you might be thinking, why were the police, when there's a child missing, wasting time with these kind of games? Why did they, if they already knew that Casey Anthony was lying about working at Universal Studios, why did they let her go on that little charade of like walking them around for 25 minutes and then, you know, getting her to admit it in the end?

Well, firstly, and the police detectives admit this in, there's quite a few documentaries you'll be unsurprised i'll link all of them in the episode notes but the police say that because of how relaxed casey was like in that first interview on that 911 call she's so like relaxed and like reluctant to talk to them and not really like how you would expect a parent of a missing child to be they actually thought that kaylee was probably alive. They actually thought this woman is so calm, this mother is so calm, something can't be wrong. She knows something and she knows their child is safe. Yes, I agree. Which I think is a reasonable conclusion. I don't think it's necessarily right because we know that people like Casey Anthony

exist, but I think it's a reasonable thing that they thought. So basically they suspect that Casey was hiding Kaylee somewhere. They had seen firsthand how volatile the relationship between Casey and her mum Cindy was and they actually thought that Casey was hiding her daughter Kaylee away from Cindy to just like punish her or do something or keep her away from him. That's their theory. But since Casey wouldn't give them anything in interviews, like she doesn't break she doesn't crack she doesn't deviate from her story she just keeps going regardless of what evidence they confront her with so I think the police were basically like we need to do something to try and

shake her we need to catch her in a massive lie like at Universal so that we can force her to tell the truth but nope not with Casey Anthony. And when she turns around in that pivotal moment and tells them, all right, fair enough, I don't actually work here, the police immediately arrest her and take her to a room in Universal Studios. They don't even bother going to the police station. They take her to a room immediately in there and interview her. And we're going to play a clip now from this interview.

And you'll hear now that the police are much more aggressive with Casey Anthony. Since I left you this morning I've gone to every address that you've told me I came over here I've already talked to all the employees I found out all these names that you're giving me are people that either never worked here or have been fired here for a long time ago okay so where we are right now is in a position that doesn't look very good for you. Because obviously, I know and you know that everything you've told me is a lie.

Correct? Not everything that I've told you. Pretty much everything that you've told me, including where Kaylee is right now. That, I still, I don't know where she is. Sure you do.

I absolutely do not know where she is. Let me explain something. Looking at you, I know that everything that you've told me is a lie. I am very confident, just by having talked to you the short period of time that you know where she is. I legitimately have not seen my daughter in five weeks.

I didn't let anything happen to her, except I trusted her with somebody, somebody that had been taking care of her, that had been taking good care of her, someone that she was comfortable with, that I was comfortable with. What about Jeff? Has Jeff worked here until about two months ago? No, he hasn't worked here for quite a while. Ten months? How long? It's been at least ten months.

He got fired in 2002. He hasn't been an employee here since 2002. We've put a lot more together than I think you realize we've put together. My question to you is, we're in this office because our purpose in coming here was to do what? i'm trying to think of places where i know she's been you're not answering my questions do you want us to help you want to help us find your daughter well good starting point would be to answer the questions okay if i say you we're here because and then you just ignore that like i never asked it and go off in some other direction is that answering the question no okay let's go through this again. We're here because...

Because I lied. Because I brought you up here. And honestly, I was reaching for... No, stop right there. I want you to tell me how lying to us is going to help us find your daughter. It's not going to. Well, if the main thing you want to do is find your daughter,

and you don't think lying to us is going to help us find her, why would you do that? Because I'm scared. And I know i'm running out of options it's been a month what are you scared of i'm scared of not seeing my daughter ever again i'm a parent too i would have been beside myself i have i would have called the police immediately and that's the part that i just don't understand we can we've got so many resources out there that we could help on day one. You didn't know what to do. I didn't know what to do. At that point, I'm thinking, okay, they haven't been gone that long.

Maybe I can find them. Maybe I can track them down. We're not stupid, okay? And what you're doing right now is you're treating us like we're stupid. Everything that's coming out of your mouth is a lie. Everything. You give Kaylee to someone and you don't want anyone to find out because you think you're a bad mom, or something happened to Kaylee and Kaylee's buried somewhere or in a trash can somewhere. And you had something to do with it. Either way, right now, it's not a very pretty picture to be painting. You're painting yourself as a very bad person.

It needs to end. The truthful thing is that I have not seen my daughter the last time that I saw her was on the 9th of June. Remember we had those two people that we were talking about? The person who had an accident and a person who's just a cold-blooded, callous monster? That's telling me that you are the second person, this cold-blooded, callous monster who doesn't care and doesn't want to help because she's afraid that something so heinous happened that everyone's going to look at her and say, she's a monster, she deserves to go away, she deserves to never see the light of day, this bad thing should happen to her. I don't want to believe that right now but

you're giving me no choice tell us what happened to Kaylee tell us what happened to Kaylee I dropped off Kaylee I dropped her off at that apartment no you didn't that's exactly what I dropped her off did you just think that one day she's just going to spill up at your house? No. I sat around yesterday trying to figure out what to do. I'm glad that I ended up seeing my mom. That all of that stuff happened. It happened for a reason. You're glad you saw your mom. You could have saw your mom five weeks ago and said mom I don't know what to do. I saw my mom's reaction right off the bat and it it would have been the same from the get-go. So wait a minute. You're more afraid of your mom's reaction than you are if you ever see your daughter again? No, I'm absolutely petrified. Absolutely petrified. I know my mom will never forgive me. I'm never going to forgive myself.

Is it that there's some other thing more important in your life right now that you just weren't really focused on what you were saying when you told us? So you kind of just accidentally told us you had an office here and we needed to be here, or did you purposely mislead us? Which of those two is it? I purposely misled you. Okay, so you purposely misled us. This was all an attempt to help find your daughter, right?

That makes sense to you, correct? In a backwards sort of way, yes. Backwards sort of way. I'm coming back to places that are familiar to me that I know are familiar to her. Familiar situations that maybe, but just maybe would help. She's almost three. She's almost three. What, you think she's going to take a cab here? I mean, how do you think she's going to get here?

Because she's with someone else. She's with someone else who's hid her from you for five weeks yes why would a person who is hit your daughter from you for five weeks okay bring her to the building that you used to work at I don't know what else to do anymore if I knew where she was if If something would have happened, I would have admitted that a long time ago. Do you believe thinking up more lies to tell us will help us? She's with someone that I absolutely do not trust. And that I'm absolutely scared

that... That you don't trust yet with babysitting your daughter for a year? I don't trust her now because of what happened. Who did you call first? Who did you go to for help first to help try to find her? No one. Oh, no one oh no okay all right okay well i'm glad we got that straightened out jesus i don't even know where to start i think like it's what the first thing that jumped out at me listening to that is when she's like i'm running out of options so what outcome did you want what are your other options casey i just don't know and she's just like oh i'm just saying

random fucking shit like coming back to familiar situation like what i won't say that she's completely emotionless because i do think obviously the detectives are like ramping up senior detectives going hard at her this is an interrogation now this isn't an interview oh no absolutely but she's still like i dropped they're like tell us what happened to kaylee tell us what happened to kaylee you won't be a bad mother if you tell us what is basically what they're saying and she's like i dropped kaylee off on the eighth and you're like oh my god how oh totally like i you know that she's still lying through her teeth but she does in all of the other calls that i've heard of her

her tone doesn't change at all and this one it slightly changes she drops her volume but she's worried about herself oh no i'm not saying that it's you know she's having like a mea culpa moment or feeling any particular emotions at all i think what she's doing is like okay plan a isn't working let's move into plan b the emotions phase but she's not hysterical no and i confront her with the fact that jeff this is when you hear her be confronted with the fact that jeff hasn't worked and she's just like okay let's move on yeah yeah and she's yeah it's just bizarre and like having literally just done a case on catastrophic false confessions. This is exactly why I said it last week. It is astonishing. How old is she? Fucking 22?

She's 22 when this interview is happening. Oh my God. This is what I'm saying. She just, she does not stop. She doesn't stop. And when she says the thing of i'm actually glad i ended up seeing my mom and all this has happened her mom dragged her out of our boyfriend's house whilst they were all sat there smoking weed 31 days apparently after kaylee went missing and she's like i'm so i'm actually really glad that happened what it's weird because in one frame i feel like she knows exactly how to come across.

She's young. She's attractive. If you watch her in the interviews, not this one, because this is like, you know, much more heated. In the earlier interviews and when the detective plays nice, she knows how to behave. Right. So, you know, she knows how she's coming across. But it's also at the same time, it's like she has no idea how she's coming across when she says these lies.

I can't figure out whether she has spent her life three steps ahead of everyone else or she's so stupid she doesn't know the difference i don't know i like i'm split i have no idea which one i think it is well we're gonna go on to talk about casey's earlier life i'll save my assessment for then. Hold it in. Again, three senior police detectives being, I wouldn't say aggressive as like a bad word, but they're going hard because enough is enough.

There is a three-year-old missing. So they're doing what needs to be done. And she's just like, no, I dropped her off. I dropped her off. Yeah, she doesn't panic, doesn't lose her cool. And I think if you really

listen to it it does kind of feel like the tail's wagging the dog a bit this is exactly what i was gonna say although there are three detectives in there who have found out a lot about her lies they are ahead of her they knew about the lies at universal before they even took her there but it still feels to me like casey is the one in control of that interview because she just doesn't care she has a real like lack of like almost a lack of shame like if i was caught out in that many lies i would be so embarrassed that i would like crumble because of that she just has no sense of like shame i'll keep going it doesn't matter oh you found out that's a lie doesn't matter i mis I misled you. Yes, I brought you here. I misled you.

Carry on. What's next? It's remarkable. She's the Pied Piper, I think. And it's because she just doesn't even answer the questions. No, no, no, no. She's just like, this is my narrative. That's what the detective says.

He's like, she just pretends like whatever they say doesn't matter. I'm just going to keep saying what I'm saying. But regardless, after this interview, the police arrested Casey, hoping that this would scare her and that she'd finally just crack and tell them everything, tell them where Kayleigh was. But again, it was a big fat nobody nopington from Casey Anthony. So the next clip we're about to listen to is from the one phone call that Casey Anthony was allowed after

her arrest. The first voice you're going to hear is Casey's mum Cindy. So the nice little cameo on TV she's talking about is just before she's allowed to make this phone call she watches the news and sees her mum go out there and talk about the situation as you would fucking expect when there's a child missing but it's also weird for a mom to pick up the phone to her daughter who she suspects of squirreling away her granddaughter with hey sweetie oh yeah yeah and also the fact that cindy goes and does a press conference to try and find kaylee and And Casey's weather, I just saw your nice little cameo on TV. What do you mean which one? Which one? I did four different ones and I don't know, I haven't seen them all. I've only seen one or two so far. You don't know what my involvement is in

stuff? Casey. Mom. What? No. I don't know what your involvement is, sweetheart. You're not telling me where she's at. Because I don't f***ing know where she's at. Are you kidding me? Casey, don't waste your call. No. Don't scream and holler at me. Waste my call sitting in the jail? Whose fault is your sitting in the jail?

You're blaming me that you're sitting in the jail? Not my fault. Blame yourself for telling lies. You mean it's not your fault. What do you mean it's not your fault, sweetheart? If you'd have told them the truth and not lied about everything, they wouldn't... Do me a favor. Just tell me what Tony's number is. it down though because she speaks to three different people during this call. So that was her conversation. First conversation she has after being arrested with her mum. The call continues. We're going to break it down though, because she speaks to three different people during this call. So that was her conversation.

First conversation she has after being arrested with her mum. The level of anger she has at her mum for going on TV. I understand because her mum's obviously gone on TV and says that she doesn't know Casey's level of involvement in things. I would be upset if my mum said that about me. You would be, rightfully so. But I think, again, everybody let's remember this call because cindy goes on to have quite a change of heart as we'll discover but right now we all just heard it plain as day she says i don't know what your level of involvement is in things darling or sweetheart

or whatever she fucking says then she says if only you told them the truth instead of lying about everything let's remember these things because she's singing a different tune later down the line. I think the relationship between Cindy and Casey is one of the most interesting parts of this case that I think is quite often definitely in the documentaries overlooked. Purely because,

and I understand why they're doing it, they want Cindy to be involved in the documentary. Cindy and George, Casey's dad, they're in all of the documentaries being interviewed. Obviously, if you start criticising Cindy, she's not going to do that. I'm not saying for a second that I think Cindy is involved in Kaylee's disappearance, but the relationship there is interesting. Also, you will have noticed that Casey was like, get me Tony's number.

Pay attention to the next bit. The next voice you're going to hear is Casey talking to her brother, Lee. I can't do that. I don't know what real good it's going to hear is Casey talking to her brother Lee. waste your time coming up here you're making it real tough for anybody to want to try to i'm not going around and around with you that's pretty pointless christina would love to talk to you because she thinks that you will tell her what's going on frankly we're gonna find out everything i have no clue where kaylee was do you think any of this would be happening no anyway you only got a couple minutes for this, so I'm not going to let you throw away. Here's Christina. She thinks she can get this.

Even Lee, her brother, is like, it's all going to come out. Just tell us. Tell us. And she's just like, no. And her singular focus is getting Tony's number. I kind of, obviously, don't know the guy, but I kind of rate her brother for being like,

you're making it extremely difficult for anybody to want to help you this is because lee has grown up in that house right we're going to talk about this later but the dysfunction in that family is rife particularly the relationship between cindy and casey like we said and i think that lee is a man who has grown up in that environment he knows his sister that's why he's not yelling at her that's why he's not like tell them the truth like Cindy keeps doing because he knows that's not going to work he's just like this is making things very difficult it's all going to come out in the end those are lines I feel like Lee has said before to his sister that's how it sounds he sounds like a tired man he does so he basically gives up and

he hands over the phone to Christina, which is the next voice you're going to hear in the next part of this phone call. Christina is Casey's best friend. The first time I heard this exchange, my jaw dropped open a little bit. I want Tony's number. I'm not talking to anybody else. Hi, I'm glad everybody's at my house. Do me a favor, get my brother back because I need Tony's number. Does Tony have anything to do with Kaylee?

No, nothing. Okay, so why do you want to talk to Tony? He's my boyfriend and I want to actually try to sit and talk to him because I didn't get a chance to talk to him earlier because I got arrested on a f***ing whim today. I just want to talk to Tony and get a little bit of... Casey, you have to tell me if you know anything about Kaylee. If anything happens with Kaylee, Casey, I'll die.

You understand? I'll die. If anything happens to that baby. Oh my god. Calling you guys? A waste. Huge waste. It actually makes me sick, that part of the call. Yeah, I feel sick and sad at the same time. Skiff's sad. Christina sounds nice. Yeah.

Christina sounds like a mother in anguish. Yeah. She's like, if anything happens to that baby, I'll die. And Casey goes, oh, wow. Oh, my God. Are you fucking serious? It's unbelievable. Why are you inconveniencing me with your emotions?

Get me Tony's number. I need to talk to my boyfriend. So her only concern at this point is not finding out where Kayleigh is, not figuring any of that out. She needs to explain to her boyfriend what's really going on. So that he doesn't, you know, freak out that his girlfriend's been arrested. It's shocking. Yeah, yeah, it truly, truly is. So this call is made from a jail, which the police can obviously hear.

They have recordings, they are aware that all of this has gone on. So obviously, given how batshit fucking mental that call was, it set off major alarm bells in the police station. Who was this Tony character, and why did Casey need to speak to him quite so urgently? And just in case you'd forgotten, dear listener, dear sausage, dear spooky bitch, Tony is of course Tony Lazzaro, Casey's boyfriend of but a few weeks. He's not Kayleigh's dad. No, no, no, no, no, no. No, he's a new boyfriend. He's brand new. Exactly. So obviously, after listening to that phone call and given the urgency that casey showed in wanting to speak to tony the police are highly suspicious of this tony

character they think that he's involved somehow so the police track him down and turn up at his house and tony lazaro honestly his life he doesn't take part in any of these documentaries and take part in anything and i don't blame him because his life was dragged through the fucking shit because of this case i'm gonna say it out now like i don't think tony had anything to do with fucking anything uh yeah i think i'm probably on your team now he's just like a stoner college kid that's what tony lazaro is right so tony hasn't got a fucking clue what's going on. And according to him, Casey and he had started dating in like the end of April 2008. They used to hang out at his, watch TV and go partying together. Tony, aside from being a student, was also a Florida club promoter who ran classic club

nights such as That's Dope Fridays. I have a confession to make. You've been to That's Dope Fridays? No, it's worse. When I was a student, I promoted club nights. What's the best named one? Fuck Me It's Freshers. Excellent.

I thought that would be a really good idea. To like meet people, make friends. Yeah, that is a great idea. Unless you go to SOAS where nobody wants to go to Fuck Me It's Freshers. They want to go and learn Iraqi dancing. So I made no friends. Oh mate. Actually, it was worse because I tried to fly this guy and he ripped up the flyer in front of me and he was like I'm really not used to girls giving me flyers and say fuck me on them yeah not with that attitude you should be so lucky yeah it was so embarrassing that I just

deleted the like my boss's number basically. And I didn't even pick up my money. No. Do you know what? He's embarrassing. Those students are embarrassing. Call yourself a fucking student. Get in the bin.

I hate it. Yeah. It was actually, I've just been overwhelmed with a wave of anxiety just even telling you it was so awful. But you know, we grow, we move. I hate that guy. Yeah. No, I can see his face

so clearly and then i was in a tutorial with him for the rest of the year mate yeah it was bad it was really i'm sweating i'm never gonna complain about my uni ever again ever again jesus these people shut up yeah yeah it was bad so after three weeks of t and Casey's love affair, apparently Casey had introduced him to her daughter Kaylee. And then Tony said that after the introduction that Kaylee would basically come to the house about three times a week with her mum. Tony and his housemate both said that as far as they could see, Casey had been a great mum. That she and Kaylee had a really strong relationship and that she really looked after her. And this is the thing, I think sometimes people do want to, because Casey Anthony is such an unlikable character, they do want to ignore anything that could be slightly positive. And as far as all of

her friends and Tony and his housemate with who she spent the majority of her time and probably where she spent most of her days when she was pretending to be at work, said that Kaylee was incredibly intelligent. She was taught a lot byy and casey wouldn't allow anyone to smoke around her like she was a good mum visibly right during that time as far as everyone could tell and then and this is according to tony apparently in about mid-march so about six weeks before the police turned up at his door, Casey, who had still been coming over daily, suddenly stopped bringing Kaylee with her. And this ties in with the timeline of Kaylee's disappearance, as told by Casey. But, interestingly, Casey never even once mentioned to Tony, her boyfriend, the love of her life, the man she has to speak to urgently,

that Kayleigh was missing or that she'd been kidnapped by her fucking nanny. She spent the next 31 days at this guy's house and never said that. And this is the man that she basically moved in with for the month that Kayleigh was missing. And Tony tells all this to the police. And according to Tony, during that time, Casey hadn't seemed sad or concerned or worried about anything she'd been in the time of her life she doesn't have to go to work she can just smoke weed all the time no kid to look after live living the life so now the police were absolutely convinced that casey had done something to kaylee and their suspicions were only confirmed when they examined the car that had been picked up

by the Anthonys from the impound lot. As soon as the detectives walked into the garage, it was being kept in, the smell of death and decomposition hit them right in the face, which if you've ever smelled it, if you ever walked past a disemboweled dead fox, you know what that smell is,

and it smells like nothing else. A cadaver dog was brought in, and in a move that surprised absolutely no one the dog alerted its handler to the boot of the car. Let's explain boot equals trunk. I won't say trunk it's boot. When police examined the boot of the car it was definitely where the overwhelming smell was emanating from but you could also tell that someone had tried very hard to clean the car out, but try as they may have done, they did not do a particularly good job,

because on the carpet of the boot there was a massive dark stain. Forensics also managed to collect several human hairs from the boot. So when the stain on the carpet was tested, it was found to have very high levels of chloroform present. All the hairs that were found in the car were also DNA tested. The problem was that the hairs that were found didn't have like the root, the follicle. I feel like is the follicle the bit in the head? So anyway, they didn't have the bud, whatever it is, that comes out of the head with the hair if it's pulled. And because because of this the hair could only be tested for mitochondrial dna and this type of dna we've talked about it before is the type of dna that's passed from the maternal side and so analysis of the hairs that were found in the boot were only able to tell detectives that

it either belonged to c, Casey or Kayleigh. Which, considering their family car, is no good to fucking anyone. It's not. The other thing they were able to tell, though, the colour of the hair, which was like a sort of soft brown, the length of the hair and also the fact that the hair hadn't been treated, so it had never been dyed or bleached. And both Cindy and Casey, Casey has dyed hair and Cindy has bleached hair,

led them to conclude that it was most likely going to be Kaylee's. The hair also showed banding. And this is something we haven't come across before. So. Educate me, Dr. Barla. So, PMRB is post-mortem root band. And apparently, after someone dies, if you observe hair under a microscope,

you will see an opaque band, like a dark band, that runs near the root areas of the hair on a decomposing body. So if you compare hair pulled from a living person or pulled from a dead person where decomp has started, you will see like a black band along the head right on the hair right and it's not well understood they actually don't understand why this happens so i can't tell you guys why that happens but what i can say is that you're not going to see that banding on hair where the body hasn't started to decompose. Uh-huh. Okay. It's called post-mortem root band. So not only can they make the logical assumption via a process of hair. It's a bit of a Legally Blonde moment, isn't it?

Of hair dying elimination. They know it's a dead person's hair. So they know that it is most likely to be Kaylee's hair. And the person the hair belonged to is dead. Was in the stages of decomposition. In car and in the car because the hair or the hairs were found in the boot so the connection they're making is exactly what you just said Hannah that Kaylee's dead mitochondrial DNA will only take us so far but because of the treatment of the hair we can assume it's her the banding shows that it came from the head of somebody who was decomposing. And they were found in the boot of the car.

So they're saying, that says we can say that Kayleigh is dead and she was in the boot of this car. So the car really does become a key piece of evidence. And in fact, George Anthony, Casey's dad, he was an ex-police officer. Which just makes this whole thing get better and better. And when the car, because remember he and Cindy go pick up the car first. And he actually told the police, he took them aside and told the police that he had, quote, bad vibes when he'd got the car back. George also told police, and this is recorded in a fucking police interview,

quote, where this is headed, I don't like it. I don't want to believe that I could have raised someone who could have hurt another person. George Anthony breaks my heart in this entire, they fucking just destroy this man. I just, my heart breaks for him. By now, investigators had also heard the third call that Cindy Anthony had made on the night of the 15th of July, and they had heard her say the car smells like there's been a damn dead body in there. Just a little fun factette for you. Cindy Anthony is a registered nurse, which means she would have known exactly what human decomposition smells like.

She'd even worked in a morgue. So yeah. So ex-cop and nurse pick up a car and they're both like smells like there's been a dead body in here. I don't think you can get much better than that. No I don't either. Cindy doesn't seem to see that as a particular problem because she admits the fact that she's a nurse and she knows what a dead person smells like. She tells that straight to the police. But when they press her about the statement she made about the smell of death on the 911 call, Cindy changes her mind. This is where the U-turns begin from Cindy. The lady is very much for turning, it would seem.

Cindy now said that, quote, smells like there's been a dead body in there is just a turn of phrase. Which it is, but when there has actually been a dead body in there, that is quite a specific thing to say. This is the thing, though. They don't have the evidence to prove that there's been a dead body in there.

They have the hairs, they have the stain. They can't prove it. They can't definitively prove there's been a dead body in there. But we heard the phone call from Cindy Anthony. It does not sound like it's a turn of phrase. She also later says, when they call bullshit on that, she says, I said it because no one had come to the house after two hours of me calling the police. And I said it as a way to get somebody there immediately.

So yeah, she's just saying that, you know, whether there really was a dead body or whether it was just a really horrible smell, there was a horrible smell. And Cindy felt like she had to explain that somehow. And she chooses to explain it by saying the smell must have come from the bag of rubbish that had been in the boot of the car. When the Anthonys picked up the car, there had indeed been a load of rubbish and a half-eaten pizza in the back. And they decided that that must have been the source of the odour. I do not have the tidiest car in the world. I think having a car is like having a giant handbag.

I would never leave half a pizza in the world. I think having a car is like having a giant handbag. I would never leave half a pizza in my car. That is absolutely vile. If you've ever done that, you're going to jail. Well, this is the thing. Basically, when they pick it up from the impound lot, there's like a bag in the back, just like torn open rubbish, half-eaten pizza, maggots, whatever. How it gets there is an interesting part of this story. Because where the car was picked up by it was next to a bunch of massive bins so i suspect what happened casey anthony tries very hard to clean up this mess she realized she can't get rid of the smell we'll talk about what our theories are okay she picked some bin bags out of the rubbish sticks it in there hoping that will mask the smell of

decomposition and death and that she'll be able to explain away the smell that way. Okay, that makes sense. And that's not a hot take. That's like quite a common theory that is out there. But still, I won't believe for one second that registered nurse Cindy Anthony would be confusing the smell of a moldy pizza and some maggots to that of a literal dead body. So I think it's pretty safe to assume at this stage in the game that Cindy Anthony, Casey Anthony's mum, knew by this stage that something had probably happened to Kaylee and that Casey knew what it was and was involved in it. But Cindy can't face up to it and like she's done so many times before, Cindy fell into her default mode of protecting her daughter Casey at all costs.

So let's take a little look at the relationship between Cindy and Casey Anthony because like I said I think it's very interesting and I also think it's very important in understanding both of these women's behaviour in this case. In all of the documentaries Cindy claims that she and Casey were super close, making out like it was one big lovey-dovey family. And I'm sure, you know, to give Cindy some credit, that that's what most people would do. No one's going to sit there and air their dirty laundry in front of the world. You're always going to put the best face on. But the thing is, it's just not really true. When she was 17, Casey was about to graduate from high

school, as far as her family knew anyway. But in actual fact, Casey hadn't been going to class for quite some time. And on the day of her graduation, the school had called the Antony's and told them that because of this, because Casey hadn't been turning up to class, that Casey wouldn't actually be graduating. I have a recurring stress stream that is the same thing. It's usually that I have mixed up my scheduling on my timetable so I need to do it's always a chemistry module um and I never go I never go to this chemistry module and then I'm terrified that I'm never going to graduate from university and it always takes me a good 20 seconds when I wake up to remind myself that I'm 31 and I've had a degree for quite some time and

it had nothing to do with chemistry there you you go. Very similar to what Casey's actual situation was. Yes. Because when her parents confronted Casey with this she just blamed the school. She said that they had mixed up her timetables and that she'd been accidentally missing classes because they double booked her. That's why they were telling them that she hadn't been going to classes. It was all the school's fault. Now, I don't think Cindy's stupid. She's not stupid. No. She knew her daughter. But I also think that Cindy, I will not think a no because of what happens next,

appearances are very important to Cindy. So she told Casey to carry on as normal, accept her graduation gifts from friends and family, and just to tell everyone that she'd graduated. So they don't, like, hold her accountable. Someone at university's parents did she'd graduated so they don't like hold her accountable someone i went to university's parents did that yeah they don't hold her accountable they're not like well you're just gonna have to go to those classes you mixed even if you want to be like whoever's fault it was you need to sort this now because you're literally not going to

graduate from we don't do that here but i think it's a big thing in america no one gave me a fucking present for leaving secondary school but anyway like she won't graduate and they don't do that here but i think it's a big thing in america no one gave me a fucking present for leaving secondary school but anyway like she won't graduate and they don't make her go back and do it they just say tell everybody you did the girl similar thing that did that my university her parents actually staged a false graduation shoot so she could send pictures to her family wow yeah parenting we're not a million miles away from this because the anthony's actually threw casey a big congratulations party and buried the whole thing. Soon after this pretend graduation party, when Casey was 19 years old, she started putting on some weight, particularly around her stomach and reproductive area. On her uterus.

On her uterus. Her uterus was getting extremely heavy with life in the documentaries they make it sound like casey just went and told her mom that she was pregnant and it was all lovely and magical and everyone loved each other and held hands in reality according to actual family members like my homeboy casey's brother lee who i think is the only person in this situation who has his head screwed on at all lee says that casey actually hid the pregnancy for as long as she possibly could. And when Cindy found out, because she is not an idiot and secondly a nurse, that both Cindy and Casey joined forces and continued to lie about the pregnancy. At family parties, people would

congratulate Casey on the baby, but then she and Cindy would both pretend that Casey was just bloated. Of course, she wasn't. On the 9th of August, 2005, Casey Anthony gave birth to a little girl that she named Kaylee Marie Anthony. This makes me very uncomfortable. She says, so at the hospital, when Casey is giving birth to Kaylee, Cindy was the first person to hold her granddaughter. Yep. That is gross.

Who the fuck allowed that? I don't know. I do not know. But I can imagine Cindy. Look, I know Cindy is also a victim in this. Like, she's lost her granddaughter. But we can't ignore the backstory or the relationship between the two of them. Cindy doesn't hide the fact that she's done this. She actually says in one of the documentaries that she did feel a little bit guilty, but

she just couldn't help it. It just had to hold her. It was like having Casey all over again. The level of like, I mean. There is a Facebook group called Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers, and it is full of stuff like that. Like wearing white to a wedding day stealing children making a parent feel guilty for not giving the grandchild to them essentially honestly it's absolutely brimming

with stuff like that and presumably appearances appearances appearances so you can see here just from those two examples that we know about, that there is a lot of enabling behaviour going on. They never hold Casey accountable. And I really couldn't help but think, and again, I don't think Cindy was involved in anything. I think she is absolutely devastated by the loss of her granddaughter. That is absolutely clear to see. Yes, I agree.

But I couldn't help thinking, during some of the phone calls, during some of the jail visits, which we'll go on to listen to at the end of this episode, when Casey is speaking to her mother in the way she speaks to her, that it's the sound of a monster eating its creator. Yes, I think that is spot on. Yeah. So, the other question that does get talked about a lot in this case is who was Kayleigh's father? We don't actually know. Casey said at first that it was a man named Jesse Grund who she was in a relationship with for the majority of her pregnancy but it turns out it wasn't him. She then said it was another man who

later died in a car accident also turned out to not be him and to this day we don't know who Kaylee's father was or is. After Kaylee was born Casey and Kayleigh both lived with Casey's parents in Orlando. And from the outside, I think the situation looked pretty normal for the next two years. The only thing is, obviously, we know, listeners and us, that for those two years after Kayleigh was born, Casey just been pretending to go to work.

So once again, I just think her being able to tolerate that level of deception is unbelievable. Yeah. On top of this deceit upon lies, upon confusion, Casey was also stealing from her parents, her brother and her friends all of the time because she had no job, which famously means you have no money. But Casey couldn't ask for money because everyone thought that she had a job. But obviously, most people knew that something was off. Even Cindy admits in the first 911 call that the stealing had been going on for quite some time. Again, it's just like the level of willingness they all have to just bury their heads in the sand. Why is your daughter stealing money if she has this big job?

She doesn't. And you know that. They know that. But they're just like, well, I'm just gonna fucking think what I want to think. I'm just gonna see what I want to see. Yeah, no, exactly. Print the myth.

Live the myth. Is the fucking words on the doormat at the Anthony household. Print the myth. I'm gonna get that on my doormat. At the moment, it's just hedgehogs, which my sister thinks is juvenile, but she can shut up. So some parts of the life at the Anthony's family home was true.

However, how difficult it may be for you to believe at this stage in the game. In the evening, Cindy and George, or Cece and Jojo, as Kaylee called her grandparents, would dote on the little girl. And I think that it was in order to avoid losing little Kaylee and to avoid losing face socially, that Cindy and George allowed all of Casey's bullshit to continue. It's, I mean, it's a golden sword of Damocles to be holding over your parents, isn't it? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, she'd literally come home from work and be like, do you want some, like, grandma time?

Here you go. I've been with her all day while you thought it was over yeah right and now i'm gonna go off and smoke weed again with the weed smoking i do want to make this point just because we'll go on to see next week that they make a big deal of like casey drinking a lot partying a lot smoking weed blah blah blah that's actually not who casey was like when she was a teenager she was actually the mother of the group, is how all of her friends described her. And that's how she was known. She was actually often the designated driver when they went out. She wasn't a partier, really.

She didn't actually even smoke weed. Those things started or were starting around this time. We'll talk about that more next week. We have to be fair about these situations. And she wasn't a big partier prior. So if you think all of this is not weird and enabling enough let's listen to our next clip because I think it really shows you the level of dysfunction in the family and it shows you kind of the dynamics I think very clearly. And the clips we're about to listen to are from a jail

visit between Cindy, George and Casey after she's been in custody for about two weeks. Hi. Hi sweetie. We've been watching you for so long. You have been? I love you. I love you too. Hi. We've been seeing you sitting down. Okay. I was talking with one of the doctors. We forgive anything that you've said. Oh, hold on. Can we turn the volume down? Yeah, you can probably hear it. My head's going to explode. I haven't said anything. Don't worry. It is kind of loud. Okay. Is that better?

Casey? Yeah. Can you hear me? Just a little bit more. Yeah. That's good. Yeah, that's perfect. Are you okay?

Yeah, I'm good. I just talked to Lee. I know. He told us. Yeah, we got cut off within our last minute, but we at least got a chance to cover a lot of stuff in our hour. That's good. What's that T-shirt? I didn't get a chance to ask him other things.

Kaylee's picture's on the back. Is it? Can Dad show me the shirt? Turn around so she can see. It's the Never Lose Hope Foundation. Do you see it? I can see part of it, yeah. Have you seen me? And then it has the

information on how to contact. Okay. Casey, you don't realize that the whole United States is looking for Kaylee. I know that mom. Her cover is going to be on People Magazine in a few days. Okay. Everybody is looking for her. Good. Everybody is looking for her. Good. Everybody is looking for her. Are we going to be able to find her, do you think? I hope we can, Mom. No, I didn't get a chance to ask Lee. Can you look up a little bit more?

Raise your eyes up a little bit. There you go. So now look straight up so I can look into your eyes darling thank you I need you know I need to do that please look up sweetheart I need to see your eyes I want to be able to look at you guys too I can't look at you and look at the camera well you don't have to look at the camera look at me I'm looking at you okay you're sitting very low i know your head's about this much in the tv i know again the lack of emotion people deal with stuff differently but her dad's literally wearing a t-shirt with a picture of her missing daughter on it nothing she's just like uh-huh

okay and then i think one of the most telling parts is when cindy keeps telling her everyone is looking for kaylee she's going to be on the front cover of people magazine which is a fucking massive magazine and she's like okay it's a national good and then i don't know if you saw there was i will post the video linked so you guys can watch this i've watched it a fucking million times and it's like an hour and a half long but it's worth it when she says that casey goes she sounds irritated that people are looking she sounds annoyed she doesn't sound like oh thank god you made a front cover of people like people are looking great this is what we need to do this

is where we need to be focusing so we need to speak to she's like okay fine okay good she sounds worried she sounds inconvenienced. And I think this becomes quite a repetitive part, and you'll definitely hear more of this in the next clips. When Cindy says to Casey, are we going to be able to find her, do you think? What does that sound like? Why would you ask that?

How would she know if she's got nothing to do with it? Are we going to be able to find her, do you think think as a mother which obviously i'm not but the way i envision that situation going is if your daughter is in jail for something she didn't do she's innocent and you know it wouldn't you be reassuring her wouldn't you be like it's going to be fine we're going to find her you wouldn't be like do you think we can find her we'll find whoever took her we'll get you out we'll get you out yeah there is some of that this call like i said it goes on for about an hour and a half and it flip-flops between them reassuring her and joking about and like her making jokes about like eating bologna or whatever to these moments that are very clear to

me that the antonys are like we know you did it right but also something very telling that listen out for in the next clips is it's just they they pussyfoot around it they tiptoe around it they never want to confront her outright why like why would a parent be scared of a child that's a person who has had a violent temper yeah oh my god yeah why would they be scared of her like this because she's manipulative because she's probably made their lives a living hell all of those things yeah a lot of people are scared of their children absolutely absolutely and also the thing that's weird and again linked to parents knowing what type of child they've got when cindy keeps saying you know i need to i need to look in your eyes when you're talking to me that is a mother who thinks that their child

is a liar oh yeah right i'm not reading too much into that am i why does she keep saying it she keeps saying it no look in the camera it's been addressed before yeah you know why i have to because you lie all the fucking time exactly and i can only tell if i'm looking directly into your brain and i can tell so let's uh listen to the next one all i'm trying to do is find kaylee for both of us oh i know for all of us and i'll do whatever it takes i feel the exact same way that's that exactly what I've been saying. I don't care what I have to do. When I told them I would lie, I would steal, I would do whatever by any means to get her back. That's exactly how I feel. It's the truth. Casey, we have to find her before her third birthday. Mom, I know. That's coming up fast. I know. We have

a couple weeks. I don't want to wait another minute, let alone... I don't want to wait another minute. I want... I want her to be found, whether I'm still stuck in here or not. I don't care. I think once she's found, then you can tell everybody what you know. And you'll be... you'll be released. Don't you think?

Potentially. I don't know. Yuri has it set in his mind that I've done something. Well, he thinks you guys did something to Kaylee. Hey, can you hold on for a second? Yeah, well, don't waste our time. I'm not going to. I'll be right back. Why would she do that?

Again, it's not them saying, Casey, tell us more about the nanny. They do go on and do that later, but I don't believe them when they're asking her about the nanny. They're like, we need to find her before her third birthday birthday do you think we're going to be able to do that i want her back now casey they're talking to her like she's got her because they know she knows yeah yeah don't waste our time yeah yeah and then she's like well lee thinks i've done something and it's like he thinks you guys have done something to kaylee and they are convinced there's also parts of this interview where you can tell that the parents think that Tony was involved. Because they say Tony has admitted to the police that there were drugs at his house. So what they think has happened, I think they believe this to the end, or they want to believe this to this day, is that Kaylee was at Tony's house, put something in her mouth, died, and they covered it up to not have to deal with it.

And they keep talking about that. You can hear, they're not like, where else should we be looking? Yeah. They're like, you tell us, Casey. I want her back before her third birthday. It's really heartbreaking. When Cindy says, you know, that he thinks you guys have done something, she just gets up and walks off for three minutes.

Yeah, yeah. I think that's worth pointing out for the people listening at home. Yeah, she fully, as soon as that sentence finishes, she's just like, wait a second. Yeah. And then she just leaves. She leaves and I counted it was for three minutes. And Cindy says, why would she do that?

And apparently she says something like for her own protection when there's like rotation of calls going, Casey's in protective custody. So she's taken away from everybody while the phone rotation is happening. But it is quite a convenient time. Yes, yeah. Yeah.

Okay, let's listen to this next bit. This bit is Casey talking to George, her father. I know this might be a tough thing to answer. No, go ahead. But did you borrow something from anyone or remove it without their permission that Kaylee might be being held for? No. I know that's a tough question, sweetie, but I just need to ask you.

It's not a tough question, Dad. I mean, Mom knows the stuff that I had taken from her. We discussed that, you know, on numerous occasions. And with Amy, you know, I mean, I feel guilty about that. I feel extremely guilty. So when she's talking about with Amy, I feel extremely guilty about that. That is a friend of the family's

that Casey stole her checkbook and wrote herself a bunch of checks. Ah, yeah. So basically, she has a long history of stealing money, stealing checks, stealing cars, whatever she needs to because obviously no fucking job and you can hear very clearly george being like has kaylee been taken because of something you've done again they're not like we know it's not you yeah they're like we think it's

you we just don't know why but i was under a time of desperation what do you mean what do you mean by that with time of desperation i don't understand like I said to you well I said to mom and Lee and I have spoken and he advised me of something which is very smart the written contact will be better than anything that's going to be recorded since we can't speak openly freely in person okay I don't want to take time then going into anything else. And I just, I want you to know, is there something that I can do for you, sweetie? I mean, I want you out of here. I know. I want me out of here too, as quickly as possible. But at the same time, I know that

until we get the bond lowered as much as possible, which is probably going to take a lot, the police aren't going to drop any charges. That's pretty evident. Well, can I share something with you? Yeah. The longer and longer this drags on... The harder it's going to be. There's going to be maybe additional things that might hit everyone, and I don't want to get into that with you,

but it's getting very, very crucial that we've got to get you out of here. If I could get you out of here. If I could get you out of here right now, I would. But I want Kaylee back too. That, again, Kaylee is my concern. If I have to stay in here outside of that, if I can get out and then have to come back, you know, I'll deal with whatever I have to myself in regard to me. I want to be out.

I want to take your pain away from you. So you can tell me anything. I know that, Dad. I miss you, sweetie. I know that. I miss you, too. I wish I could have been a better dad and better grandpa, you know? You've been a great dad and you've been the best grandfather.

Don't for a second think otherwise. You and mom have been the best grandparents. Kaylee's been so lucky. Kaylee is so lucky to have both of you. You've... I can't even put into words how glad I am that she's had both of you. And that she still has both of you. You know, it goes without saying, you know, that our house is empty without both of you there.

It's empty. All the little things that we took for granted, we miss them so, so much. That's exactly how I feel. All your little things and all her little things, it hurts when we're not there. Good to see we get to support each other from here on. Or at least spend a moment with you the day of the hearing. Four hours a day, you know. You know, I got threatened the other day by detective millage about they were going to send a squad car to visit grandpa regarding the date because

it's the 15th that you know we, we tape recorded, Grandpa. And I felt just a teeny bit of what you may be going through, Casey, about trying to protect someone that you love so much. So I want you to know, I don't know where you're coming from as far as I don't know the circumstances, but I know the mother that you are and the person that you are. And I know you're doing whatever you need to do to protect... I hope you're just protecting Kaylee. Don't worry again about protecting your dad

or me or Lee. You understand? Yes. We can handle anything. This sounds like a case for the grammar detective which bits i'm so lost because she she mixes up 10 tens oh sorry yeah no that i've i'm overwhelmed i'm overwhelmed yeah i don't even know where to fucking begin with this let's talk about the mixes because she says it she said keep saying it i'm so glad she had you i'm so glad she had you and then she catches herself immediately and then says and i'm so glad

she still has you again she instinctively knows to fix it and she does it three times which is very telling and again i feel like the antonys fucking they're giving it everything they're trying every i love george mate george i just feel he just absolutely breaks my fucking heart honestly but can you just have them being like when cindy is saying stuff about the police going to her father so casey's granddad's house and threatening to go and question him and stuff and she's like i feel how you might be feeling are you trying to protect somebody again they're like are you protecting tony like this is the narrative and again george being like you can tell me anything they know it's her and again i just want everybody to remember all of these phone calls for next week's episode particularly cindy saying if you are protecting somebody you don't need to protect me, you don't need to protect your dad, you don't need to protect me.

Remember that next week. I've just got one final clip and then we're going to wrap it up today because it's fucking making my head hurt. And I think this particular clip, I am going to load the dice before I let you hear it because I'm going to tell you what I think it means. But listen to what Cindy is saying. Really listen to what Cindy is saying. Really listen to what Cindy is saying. And remember to keep in your mind when you listen to what Cindy is saying that Casey has told her already, stop asking me certain questions because anybody could see this. Anybody could watch this because they will. Lee has said we should write everything to each other in letters. Casey tells

them that. Casey tells them that during this call. So just think about what the subtext is of this part of the call. You have to keep thinking positive, positive feelings, Casey. Oh, I know I have been. I've been staying as positive as I can. But do you think after this long she'd still be local? There's a possibility. What's your gut telling you right now? My gut's telling me that she's okay okay and your gut tells you that she's close or some she's she's hiding she's not far

i know in my heart she's like what cindy's trying to do here is reassure herself that casey is okay yeah she's nearby and something she's like what is your gut telling you is she local how the fuck would she know that if the nanny's taking her how the fuck would casey know to be fair though there are multiple multiple multiple interviews with What's Her Face McCann where she's like, I know she's alive. I can feel it. Oh, that I can give. It's not what Casey even says.

No, it's like questioning. But where is she okay? Where is she doing the being okay, Casey? What does your gut tell you? Yeah, yeah. No, no. I can absolutely understand a mother saying that. I know in my heart my child is still alive. I know in my heart my child is still alive i know

in my gut my child is still alive no one is gonna ask that mother no but where do you think she's still alive it what's your gut telling you mother's intuition of course i believe that's true yeah but nobody in an investigation no that's very true it's gonna be like we've got we've got nothing what's your gut telling you mom that's actually i hadn't thought about it like that it is information that is offered up freely it is not questioned yes yes it is not something that you ask for when your granddaughter is missing and the fact that cindy is asking that is again i think it's indeed being like tell me she's okay tell me without telling me that she's okay. Yeah. And that's it. So guys, that is where we're going to fucking call it a day today.

That is part one. Of Casey Anthony. We'll be back next week with part two. Yeah. So stay tuned for that. You can find us here every week. And then also every week over on Spotify at our other show called Sinister Societies, which is a spot of acts of glyphism.

We talk about cults and shit. So go over there and have a listen to that. It really helps us out. So if you could do that. And also the show is bagging. We're having a good time. And you can be a patron and you can come to our Christmas party, which is probably next week by the time you're listening to this.

And you can do that at patreon.com forward slash red handed. And also remember that we're doing the annual flash sale. Oh. Top of the show. What's that next week? I don't the annual flash sale information for that top of the show what's that next week i don't fucking know it's top of the show cut the show so we'll see you next week for part two and the last episode of 2021 because i nearly said 2020 then because we are taking two weeks off over christmas because if we don't we will go quite literally insane and have to go and live in some sort of protected institution. And nobody wants that because there'll be no more Red Handed ever.

So two weeks off, no main show, no Under the Doobie, but we'll be back with an enormous bang in the first week of January. Yes, and they'll still be in the news and the bonus episode for this month, so don't worry about that. And if you're like, I need some Red Handed, go listen to Sinister Society. It's basically the same thing. Bye! I need some Red Handed, go listen to Sinister Society. It's basically the same thing. Bye. Bye. They say Hollywood is where dreams are made. A seductive city where many flock to get rich, be adored, and capture America's heart. But when the spotlight turns off, fame, fortune, and lives can disappear in an instant. When TV producer Roy Radin was found dead in a canyon near L.A. in 1983, there were many questions surrounding his death. The

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